InvestigateWest's Wilson Criscione and RANGE's Daisy Savala Magaña join Luke Baumgarten for a discussion of their piece detailing the events that led to Rob Curley's suspension from the Spokesman-Review this summer.

https://www.rangemedia.co/rob-curley-spokesman-review-newsroom-revolt/

This is Free Range.

Today's episode was pre-recorded yesterday, but unfortunately one of

our microphones did not cooperate.

We apologize for the resulting poor audio quality.

This is Free Range, a co-production of Range Media and KYRS serving Spokane,

Washington, and surrounding environs.

I am Luke Baumgarten, your host today, and I'm here joined by one of

my colleagues at Range, Daisy Zavala Magana, and ooh, a collaborator, a new

col- well, once and future collaborator Wilson Criscione of Investigate West.

, So we had a big, we had a bunch of big stories last week, one of which

was the two that, or the one that you two co-wrote about the, the

suspen- the events leading up to and then the suspension of Rob Curley.

So, where do you guys think we should begin?

You know, we've kind of been hearing, and then your reporting bore out

that there have been complaints about Rob Curley since, you know, Rachel

Alexander in your story is a named source who says she quit in 2018 as

a result of Rob Curley's interference and just the way he ran the newsroom.

He'd only been in Spokane for two years at that point.

So why do you think it took so long to get to this point?

Y- yeah, I, I mean, I think what took so long was that, you know, a lot of

the staffers as the story lays out were afraid of retaliation and they

didn't want to speak out against their boss for understandable reasons.

So I think y- you know, l- local journalists in Spokane area and other

people that had worked at newsrooms where Rob had been you know, some of

that, this kind of reporting had been done in previous newsrooms as well.

Right.

But in Spokane it was just one of those things, it's difficult

to speak out against a boss.

And I think what really accelerated everything was this transition to Comma.

And with that so imminent, I think that's kind of what heightened everyone's

all, all the tension in the newsroom.

So, so for those who haven't read the story and are just listening to

this for the first time, Comma is a nonprofit 501[c][3] that was, I guess,

started by Rob Curley, the editor of "The Spokesman," with the intention of

being sort of like a holding company that takes newsrooms and turns them into

nonprofits or like, you know, for-profit newsrooms and turns them into for-profits.

They had previously, The Black Lens had been part of this until recently,

and so "The Spokesman" was gonna be the second project of Comma.

Am I getting most of those details right?

I believe so, yeah.

Yeah.

So maybe we could just start, rather than me asking a bunch of, you know, random

questions, as you guys were reporting this story I know Daisy, you were an

intern at "The Spokesman" back in the day.

Wilson, you've been, and you've been back in town for about a year.

Wilson, you've been in town for a while.

Mostly, you never worked at "The Spokesman" though, right?

I was an intern at "The Spokesman"- Okay … in 2014.

Okay.

Before Bob really was there.

And when were you there, Daisy?

2020.

Okay.

So how would, maybe, okay, let's start there, 'cause interns actually

factor into the story a little bit.

What was, what was it like as an intern in 2014 for you, Wilson?

And then maybe we'll, like how, contrast that against what your

experience was like, Daisy.

My experience at "The Spokesman" was outstanding as an intern, and I'm, I was

very thankful to land that internship.

I was very inexperienced as a reporter, and just having Y- you know, the

ability to work in a newsroom, it was a very positive experience.

And I remember there were a lot of the same editors that are

there now that were helping me.

Some of them are no longer there.

I remember Abby Hatch was one of the editors at the time.

Yeah, I thought it was a great experience for me and helped me

get a job in journalism afterward.

I went to the Bellingham Herald after that.

And yeah, at the time, Gary Graham was the editor-in-chief.

I didn't really have much experience directly with him.

Right.

I think my mom cold-called Gary Graham in 2004 and tried to get

me a job at The Spokesman as well.

So, I mean, I think that one of the things that's fascinating about this

is, like, this has been sort of a journalism talent generator for 150

years, and that very much includes my entire life as my awareness of The

Spokesman maybe began with our generation column, which used to be, you know,

high schoolers doing, you know, writing about their lives in the '80s and '90s.

And so, yeah, like I, I feel, I feel like internships and just talent development

has been so core to probably what all dailies do, but es- and that's been

really key to, you know, the growth of the broader scene, the journalism, you

know, community as it exists in Spokane.

What was it like for you, Dizzy, in 2020?

So I did the 2020 legislative internship, but that was in Olympia.

Okay.

The only person I really spoke with was Jim, and he was a really

great mentor, and I have nothing but kind things to say about Jim.

And then after that, I did the summer internship, and I could

notice that there were strong sentiments about Rob Curley- Mm

at the time based on, like, the concerns that even then a

lot of reporters had about him.

So I think it's been-- I don't even know if open secret is the right term.

Like, everybody kind of knew in the industry that journalists in

the newsroom had a lot of concerns with Rob Curley and his leadership.

Yeah, spanning years back, like- Right … you know, with Rachel

Alexander maybe, maybe before that too.

Yeah.

So you mentioned, Wilson, that the, like a lot of this is probably

coming because comma is now imminent.

So this has been a process that's been underway for a while.

In your story, you talk about how it's been about two years since Rob

started telling the newsroom staff about comma and about the plans to

nonprofit, to turn it into a nonprofit.

I feel like I was hearing about his plans to turn it into a

nonprofit far before that.

And this is the thing that's interesting, 'cause I was trying to think of like

when did I first start hearing, you know, staff unrest about Rob's leadership,

and it's hard to put a point on it, or it's hard to it's hard to put a, like

a specific date on 'cause it just feels like it's been around for a while.

And, and so both, both the idea of turning it into a nonprofit

and people's struggles with Rob's leadership have been around for…

You know, they've just kind of been in the, in the air during his tenure.

It seems like the reporters are in general excited about the prospect

of a, of a nonprofit conversion.

Or, or maybe we could talk through that.

Like what-- How do people in the newsroom, as far as they were willing to go on the

record with you guys, how do they feel?

How did they feel, you know, initially about comma and how do they feel now?

I think what, I think they were excited about the transition to Comet

because, you know, they, the Spokesman has seen their newsroom shrink, you

know, fewer and fewer reporters.

Even, you know, since I was there in 2014, it's much smaller.

And so I think any way to, you know, have some sort of innovative idea to,

you know, find a business model that will work for journalism is something that

everyone in the industry is looking for.

And this seemed like, and may still be a good idea i- in theory

of, you know, transitioning the family paper to a, a nonprofit.

But yeah, I think sort of the, what it seemed like was as that got closer the

concerns that they had had about who would actually be leading that transition

and be, you know, continue to be their boss when it happened the reality kind

of sunk in, sunk in, and I think came to a head that week that Rob was suspended

and put on leave with, you know, the altercation in the newsroom that ended

in, in his sus- in Rob's suspension.

So I think that's kind of where I started with this story was, like, Range had

reported, you know, the initial news of the suspension, and my question

was, "Okay, so what actually happened?

I'm dying to know what led to th- this whole situation."

And so yeah, that's kind of where I go back to.

It, it just seemed like a culmination of the concerns about the leadership

and this transition all coming to a head in that moment, and that's what

we set out to report with this story.

Yeah.

Did you have any follow-up on that, Daisy?

The discontent was also growing just based on things that Rob had told

reporters that they found out were untrue.

As a journalist myself, I really would question, like,

working for somebody like that.

It seems weird to say that or have to say that, but yeah, I think, I think

about people like Stephen Glass, right?

Like, journalists who have gotten a, like a, who've been fabulous, who have

made up stories and stuff, and those, that kind of colors our perception,

I think, broadly of journalists.

But That's like less than one-tenth of one.

You know, like I know-- Like the reporters I know in Spokane are

like truthful to a fault and kind of guileless in certain ways.

And like, so here, like the idea that your boss could lie to you, I think is like a

pretty, like that's a common thing that happens in most places, and my friends

who work in startup world are just like, "I expect that my boss is like never

telling me the truth about anything."

There does seem like there is a, an expectation of newsrooms that like

the, the truth value and the ethics and the morality that we put on the

page and put onto our reporting should also exist in the newsroom, and that

was one of the things that was really striking to me about there's an anecdote

in the story about a reporter who was told that their position was grant

funded or funded by donors, right?

Somehow philanthropically funded, and that was not true.

None of the reporters are actually funded philanthropically right

now, and the quote was, let me see if I can find it real quick.

"I'd been lying on his behalf without even knowing it."

And I think about the times I've made a, like an unintentionally made an

error of fact in a story or in, as a journalist in the community I'm

sick to my stomach for days, right?

And so unintentionally lying would be-- It seems like a small thing,

but to a reporter, I think it's, that's gotta be one of the most

profound betrayals of trust, you know?

Yeah.

And I think that's, that's kind of the, what we were hoping to focus on with this

story because, you know, there, there were a lot of allegations and, and concerns

that they had about Rob Curley that were discussed with us during the reporting.

And then, you know, even after the story has come out, people have responded.

And, you know, each individual thing on its own is concerning, but I think

really what offends journalists the most is when they feel like they're

being lied to, and that's why this was such a big deal in the newsroom.

You know, the, the questions about preserving their journalistic

integrity, whether, you know, their positions were actually funded the

way that they were told they were.

Those are just things that any journalist is gonna be really offended by if, if

they're told is not true, and that they're led to believe something that was false.

So I think that's what elevated this into what it became with, you know, the

newsroom blowup and, and kind of, now the questions about what the future of Comma

and Stokes interview is gonna look like.

Yeah.

When you were talking to folks, Daisy, what did they sort of-- What did

they say was the, the sort of straw that broke, broke the camel's back?

Both either those that went on the record na- as named sources or anonymously,

'cause again, it's been about 10 years that this has been happening.

It doesn't surpri- you know, the, from the position of the person who actually

suspended Rob Curley, the publisher Stacy Coles, the, the imminence of the Comma

transition would be like, well, you know, you may have been able to excuse bad

behavior before, and maybe we correct it before the transition happens, but

with the imminence of the transition…

Did you get a sense, Daisy, that that was also why folks were

ready to go on the record now?

Or was it that, like, finally something outwardly had happened to him, like a

suspension, and that felt like people-- it gave people cover to finally come forward?

Or do you have any, any thoughts on that at all?

I think it was a combination of many things.

Like, I think Wilson mentioned the transition looming.

Yeah.

The suspension, the feeling like he tried to fire a colleague for trying

to uphold the integrity of a story.

That's a really important point, yeah.

And so it's like just the combination of things and like if they don't, you know…

Like feeling compelled to maybe speak out or, you know, stay where they

are, which is under this lingering question of like, is there's this

man that we can't really trust.

You know, there's some really big concerns about journalistic integrity.

Like, are we gonna, are we gonna stay there?

Yeah.

I, I also think by that point, once Lindsey Trefry, the managing editor

at the Spokane Review, you know, stood up for a reporter that Rob had tried

to fire, you know, that was kind of a moment where it was hard to come back

from that if, you know, hard to h- see Rob being in the newsroom again- Right

Managing, you know, those editors and those reporters.

And so it kind of felt like, I think, to the newsroom that, well,

now he's on suspension, but I, I can't imagine him coming back.

I can't imagine working for him now that like- Right … one way or, or

the other, like either I'm gonna be fired if, if he comes back or, or, you

know, we need to say something now to prevent, prevent that from happening.

And- Yeah … I guess we still don't know what the ultimate answer

is gonna be out of this reporting.

This is, was this the second time the reporters have done

a vote of no confidence?

I heard that as a rumor, but I don't know if we ever ran it down.

I was actually told by Tom Klaus the union president, that

this was the only time- Okay

the vote of no confidence.

And if I'm remembering the quote correctly, he said, "And that includes

an editor who is currently in prison."

Rob.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, that would be Steve Smith, a former executive editor, who

after he retired was was busted for child pornography, I think, right?

Yeah.

So sometimes, you know, votes of no confidence aren't necessarily

definitive, but it feels like this one probably is to you guys?

In the minds of the reporters and the rank and file.

Yes.

There, there is broad consensus with the feelings among the reporters

about not wanting Rob Gurley back in the newsroom managing them.

Again, for people who haven't seen it, I think the w- the

number was there's 25 unionized reporting or like editorial staff.

23 of them voted, and all 23 voted for of no confidence, and

the, the other two abstained.

So it's like a 90% no confidence rate.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well.

Everyone that we talked to in the newsroom felt that way.

I, I can't say every single person, but- Yeah … just going

by the vote of no confidence and the people that we talked to.

How many people did you talk to who are still in the newsroom roughly?

Did you talk to 12 people total or 15?

Oh, I we, we talked to more than 20.

Okay.

I thought it was- We got, you got 12 on the record.

Yeah, with- Wow … trying to tally in my head right now.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Yeah, I mean, it, it, we made a whole spreadsheet of, like,

all the people we talked to.

Yeah.

It was…

Like, overall, we, we talked to a lot of people, like more than 20, and then

more than 12 that were willing to, you know, go on background in some way.

Yeah.

And then I think of the current newsroom, I, I don't remember exactly,

but at one point I was like, "Okay, well, we've definitely spoken to more

than half of the employees there."

Wow.

Yeah.

In, in the editorial.

On the editorial side of things.

Yeah.

In your, in your reporting, did you get a total, like, head count of how many people

work at "The Spokesman," including, like, circulations people or anything like that?

Part of what's been so, like, hard to track for me, just as a guy who,

like, likes numbers, likes data, and things like this, like, there's

just not a lot of easily, easy to find information about how big "The

Spokesman" still is as a total company.

And then it's weirdly because nonprofits are usually harder to

find information about, it's just as hard to find information about Comma.

They just did their first federal n- tax non-filing in 2024, which

shows a loss of about $100,000.

But that was before they announced all the big fundraising stuff, so we

don't even really know how big that organization is now 'cause those tax

documents are about two years old.

So it seems like, and I-- maybe you can both check me on if this is your

guys' feeling too, the, the statement c- that came out from the Coles family

after we ran our first story was very much felt like the, the f- the person

who wrote that was trying to sort of distance Comma from Rob Curley,

like there could be a path forward f- for "The Spokesman" joining Comma.

It ba- it basically seemed to me like that the press release was expressing

continued confidence in Comma as an idea, and really not making any comment

about Rob Curley as the leader of Comma.

Does that feel fair to you guys?

Yeah, I think it, it feels fair, and I, I would…

You know, I think we can say now, you know, we haven't written this story yet,

but it's in the works, and the board chair of Comma, Bill Seimer, resigned

after our story came out last week.

Yeah.

He's, he's saying clearly, like, this was a personal decision.

He's saying it, his confidence in Comma isn't shaken.

He still believes in the vision.

But he, he didn't really say much about Rob Curley's leadership exactly.

Right.

When asked about that, he said he believes in Rob Curley's vision.

But- Yeah.

So yeah, we're still kind of, a-as of this recording, still trying to figure

out, you know, what exactly is, is Comma's organization gonna look like.

But I w- would say it is, it's hard to separate them because

he, Rob Curley founded Comma.

Right.

And as we lay out in the story, like, the people that are hired there include his

son and, you know, people that he's worked with in the past at previous papers.

So there's some level of connection that he has with a lot of the employees

there that I think it's hard to entirely separate him from Comma.

Yeah.

Daisy, what, did you guys get any…

Or like, what, what was the sort of trepidation that people heard about that,

of like even Comma without Rob still has a bunch of people who are effectively, you

know, allies of Rob's, of Rob Curley's?

Was there trepidation in the people you talked to about that?

Like- I think it was mostly focused on Rob being there and having- Mm … people

that will support whatever he's doing, regardless of whether it's right or not.

Right.

That's kind of what I heard mostly.

I don't know, Wilson, if That's the same deal for you, but no one wants

to talk about Rob Curley right now.

Yeah.

They also buried their, They did acknowledge that Bill Siemer resigned,

but they buried it and quietly just put it in their FAQ section.

So there wasn't even, like, a sta- as of today, as of Wednesday, there wasn't,

like, a statement- Oh, on the Kama website … yeah, on the Kama website.

Wow.

Sorry.

Yeah.

I've been thinking about this the whole time.

I think the way that it's been framed in, through your guys' reporting and just,

you know, conversations I've had off the record with folks that, like, it's

about Ro- you know, part of this is Rob Curley bringing in a bunch of his folks

that he worked with at Orange County or in Las Vegas and stuff, and, like, are

they Rob's people or are they our people?

But does Donna Ware still live in Orange County and she is still, like,

flying up every once in a while or flying up regularly for this work?

Do we know if we've confirmed that?

We've confirmed that Kama is paying for her to fly back and forth.

We've heard from newsroom staffers that she's been in, sh- that she's

there about half the time in, in Spokane about half the time or was.

She comes up, I believe, for the Northwest Passages events- Okay.

Yeah … which she's involved with.

I don't know exactly, like, you know, her, her schedule, where, you know-

Right … all that stuff, but we do know that, like, that was something

that Kama had been paying for.

Okay.

'Cause the, the other piece of that that I really hadn't thought of until

we were just about to sit down here is that bringing in your people when

you're a leader is pretty common.

It's a little interesting though for a local journalism outlet to mostly,

s- for, like, the executive leadership to not be from Spokane, you know?

And I was-- I know Bill Siemer personally.

I've, I think maybe sat on a board with him or at least other things, and

I know Kim Pearman Gilman, and I know Rick Williams by, like, reputation.

That's Sandy Williams' brother.

But I don't recogni- I don't know most of the staff or the board.

And so I guess the other thing that I'm, I'm thinking about as a community member

is, like, what does it mean for my local daily paper, you know, if it were to

transfer to Kama and the Kama staffing and/or board stayed mostly the same?

It's like- I would have qualms with like my daily paper being effectively run from,

run by people who don't know Spokane very well or haven't been here for very long

and maybe don't even live in the town.

Like, that feels like a real point of tension.

I think a, a lot of employees also just had concerns with whether or

not the hires were even competent.

Mm.

Like, if they were just hi- like, you know- Right … and I don't

know enough about what they actually do on their day-to-day to like

say whe- whether they are or not.

But I think the perception there has been that because Rob brought

them in, and at least like with one staffer, they, they could see that he

wasn't doing much of anything- Mm-hmm

in the newsroom.

Right.

I, I think the other concern, and this-- I did talk to one of the board members

and ask, you know, was, were there any other candidates that they considered

for these positions as editors for Kama?

Right.

And it doesn't sound like there was.

R- you know, these were just the candidates.

And, and I think from the point of view of, you know, the reporters in the

newsroom, like they like their editors.

Right … they, they think that they're fully qualified to do this job.

They are comfortable working with them.

Yeah.

And then I, I have never really got a good answer as to why there, you

know, Kama felt this need to bring in these two editors, Donna Wares

and Ron Sylvester y- you know, to, I guess, oversee the other editors.

I'm not sure exactly what the plan is, but also why they were brought in

as early as they were so far before the transition would actually happen

and- Yeah … and before they had met their fundraising goal even.

Right.

Did you guys get a number on like how much that team is costing right now?

Yeah.

It'd be-- Another thing it'd be nice to have tax records for.

As I've heard some gaudy numbers, right?

And the, and, and again, this is slightly speculation, but it's

radio, we aren't reporting here.

Rob Curley gets a ton of credit as being like a Silicon Valley guy, and if

there's one thing we know, it's how much money Silicon Valley likes to spend.

We're literally in the middle of a bubble right now from all the Silicon

Valley spending on AI and, and hyperscaling data centers and whatnot.

It's always felt a little weird to me that they were…

And maybe like with, with this having this big team up front, a pretty big executive

team, this whatever the staff is doing at Kama, like that feels like you're

running a, a daily paper, like a startup.

And if the fundraising goal was only $4 million, that doesn't

last very long in startup world.

That actually goes a long way in newspaper world, it feels like.

That's like, I think, I mean, that's like 10 years of Range's budget and maybe

like, two or three years of your guys' budget 'cause you're bigger than us.

But that's still, that's a hefty amount of money that's nothing in startup world.

So part of the other thing that's felt like a weird fit, and maybe neither of

you feel qualified to, to comment on this, but like I just don't know that

you run a 150-year-old paper like a startup with the kind of the expenses

that startups have successfully.

I just don't know where that idea even comes from really.

You know, there was a part in the story where, you know, we

reference Jonathan Kirtley making, you know, more than $60,000 at,

for his salary to work at Comma.

And that's presented as higher than almost every reporter in the newsroom.

Right.

And I, I think, so, you know, that's, that's kind of important

context here that journalists, you know, aren't paid that much.

Right.

So- Yeah … if you're spending a lot on, on certain employees, like

journalists, w- you know, we al- already feel underpaid, and we have a chip on

our shoulder about that, so I think that contributes to some of the resentment.

Yeah.

So, you know, there, there is, there's been this sort of a, a decade of sort

of scared silence in the Spokesman, and a lot of this does feel…

A lot of this narrative has been, like, sort of the Spokesman

folks versus the Comma folks.

But you did get one source on the record from the Comma side, Matthew

Hallahan, the a general assignment reporter for the Spokesman, but

he gets his paycheck from Comma.

Did he say why he felt comfortable going on the record?

Yeah, we actually talked about it several times because we also

kind of weighed if it was the, like, a good thing for him to do.

Because- Right … at first when we talked it was, and I think I can say

this now, but, you know, we talked off the record, and then gradually

it was like, okay, on background.

And then he had called to ask, you know, like, what it would mean for him, right?

Like, what really are- Yeah … the consequences or the

benefits of going on the record.

Oh, wow.

And we talked about it.

We also talked about it as a team, like with our editor.

And yeah, I think he was, like, really-

forthcoming about feeling like, well, you know, and we quoted him- Yeah,

totally … saying this too, like he does not trust Rob's leadership.

And so I think the newsroom, like the staff wanted to like, you know, stand

with each other in solidarity, but really, like they unders- you know,

like we're, we're all journalists here.

Yeah, totally.

Like they understand the weight of having or putting your name to something- Totally

… and giving a statement like that.

And yeah, I mean, I, I, it's, it was hard, I'm sure.

Yeah.

But it added a lot of … It said a lot, I think.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

No, that was a really powerful moment in the piece where, you know, it's

not just sort of like an unbroken, like one side versus the other.

There's, there's ambivalence on the comma side as well.

Is there any- while I'm looking for my next question, did you … Is there stuff

that we haven't covered that you guys wanna make sure we definitely chat about?

I mean, I, I feel like we could talk more about, like, just the experience

of talking to other journalists for this story and, Yeah … you know,

like what- Sorry … some of the unique challenges of just inherent to that.

Yeah.

No, that's a good one.

So yeah, maybe before…

I, I kinda wanted to spend a little bit more time talking about the

publisher, Stacie Coles a little bit later, but maybe we could

stay on this topic of journalists.

Like, what was it like for you guys?

Maybe start with you, Daisy, or just whoever wants to go first.

What was it like sort of talking through what I assume, or for m- well,

for me would be, like, my worst fear, and the thing that happened to me

when I had to leave "The Inlander," you know, and I spent 10 years

trying to get back into journalism.

Like, we're not just dealing, especially in mid-sized cities like ours, like,

this isn't just the loss of a career.

This is the potential loss, or the, the loss of a job.

It's the potential loss of a career, right?

And so, yeah, just what was that like?

Yeah, for them, but also, like, what, did it bring up any,

you know, emotions in you?

Like, you know, I think we've all sort of struggled with, like,

is this an industry we can stay in despite how much we love it?

Like, did it bring up anything for you?

And then, yeah, what did other people t- say about it?

Yeah, I don't know.

I think I've been jaded for kind of a long time and you know this.

I'm 27 and, like, really, when we talk about how long I've been doing this,

it's not really long- Yeah … at all.

You've had a lot of experiences, though.

You've been, you know- Yeah … you've been at the Seattle Times,

you've been down in Arizona.

Yeah, so I think, like, I, like, I obviously still understand, like,

the hesitancy a lot of people had at the beginning because

a lot is on the line for them.

Yeah.

Like, their current job.

I think a lot of other people also expressed concerns about, like, not

being hired somewhere else maybe- Right … if they put their name to,

to what had happened or what they saw or what they experienced there.

Yeah, but I think ultimately, like, we want to, we want, as

journalists, accountability and- Yeah … truth, and so I think they,

you know, also probably thought that.

We didn't talk at length about that, but, but the concerns were there and

real, and I think, yeah, I don't know.

For me, I decided I think a long time ago that, like, I just wanna

do work that feels meaningful.

Mm.

I don't really care about, like, where that is necessarily, and if I stand up

for something that I really strongly believe, and that means I don't have a

career anymore, then I am okay with that.

Mm, yeah.

But I, but everybody, like, weighs different things, and I

can say that 'cause, you know, I don't have, like, any dependents.

Like, I don't have children or- Right … you know, like,

I can move around wherever.

And also, like, with journalism, I kinda came late into it.

Like, I, I, you know, like, I wasn't in love with it forever.

Right.

It wasn't a dream.

Sometimes I just feel like I'm here.

I don't really know how I got here, but I'm happy to be here.

Yeah.

What about you, Wilson?

Well, yeah, I mean, I think for me it's, it's hard to imagine doing

anything other than journalism at this point because it's just such a

part of just my general worldview.

You know, trying to find truth of, of these situations that matter to people.

And, and I think that's what makes it and made it so scary for a lot of

these reporters to put their name onto the story or even talking to us on

backg- like, you know, if people can trace back that they were one of the

sources, like that was even a fear.

Like, so when we're talking to them- Yeah … we're saying you know, "This is off the

record and if this is on background, w- we won't even write the details in

a way that can be traced back to you."

Like- Yeah … those are the things that we have to be considering.

And I think, you know, with this story, it was just so many of those

conversations with so many people.

And it was helpful that they were already journalists and

understood the stakes of it.

Right.

And i- in, so in some ways that made them initially more hesitant, but then I think

things turned when they found out that the details of the internal investigation

weren't gonna be released- Oh

until it was finished.

Yeah.

And that happened about halfway into our reporting, and then, then they

were like, "Okay, well, the, the people need to understand the truth."

So I think- Yeah … people opened up a little bit more to us at that point.

And that's where, you know, people were like, "Okay, I'm

gonna put my name to this."

And then once, once a couple people did that, then other people were willing to do

that 'cause- Yeah … like, no one wants to go out on a limb as the only person.

Y- you know, I…

We were talking about Matthew earlier, like- Yeah … i- if he had been the

only person that was gonna be named in the article, I, I don't think he

would've gone on the record either.

Yeah.

Can we say on the radio who the courageous first source was

who agreed to go on the record?

Yeah, actually.

Well, for me it was, it was Emily White had called me a few weeks

after Rob had been suspended and she was already going to leave The

Spokesman at the end of August.

And so she-- But she had been in the newsroom kind of seeing

the buildup to everything, like with this transition to comma.

So, yeah, she…

And, and I had talked to her for a previous story that I had done

at Investigate West where they were picking it, the story up.

But yeah, so she called me and, and kind of gave me the, the scoop a little bit.

And, but you know, at that point I was like not really sure if I could even

do anything with it 'cause- Mm-hmm

um, you know, she didn't want to go on record until after her last

day, which was at the end of August.

And I kind of figured other people would beat me to this story at that point.

Yeah.

I thought you, you guys would.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Totally.

And so, I was like, "All right.

Well, okay, that's good to know."

I mean, if, if there isn't anything for a while, then then maybe this is something

I can revisit when I'm less busy.

Yeah … and then it was, you know, we-- I had met some of the Range folks at you

know, a press club meeting that we have once a month and were kind of talking,

and Daisy and I were talking and it was, it was kind of like, "Is anyone gonna

do this story about what happened?"

Yeah.

Like, like someone needs to do it.

And it, it's kind of, cool I think that it's, you know, Investigate

West and Range, you know- Pretty alternative type of news organizations.

Right.

And you know, we kind of decided that night in early September that

we could, you know, put our heads together and, and work on it.

And I really appreciate, you know, s- some of the more connections that Daisy

and Range had with the story because, you know, with my job at InvestigateWest,

like I'm less connected to the community.

Mm-hmm.

Like I'm not doing real local reporting as much as I used to

when I was working at The Inlander.

So having, you know, the reporters who are doing that every day you know,

and being connected to your newsroom, I think that was kind of what I

was looking for to help me out too.

Yeah.

We should say that InvestigateWest, kind of its leadership is mostly in Spokane

these days 'cause Jacob Fries, the executive editor, or the, what is it?

The, is he the executive director, and you're the- I'm an investigations editor,

and then we have one other editor Thi Vo and she works remotely from- Okay.

Yeah.

But, but InvestigateWest, like you're saying, covers what?

The three states of the Northwest, or do you guys do Alaska and Hawaii too?

N- no, j- yeah, just Idaho, Washington, Oregon.

Sometimes we venture a little bit outside those boundaries if, if we need to, but…

Yeah.

Maybe we could spend a little bit of time kind of on that tip 'cause

We've-- You know, when we post stories like this, and this is true

whenever we sort of do like a, a, a workplace, like a labor violation story.

So it's, it's by no means like just "The Spokesman" story we publish, but we've got

some pushback on social media like, "Wow, you guys really hate 'The Spokesman.'"

Right?

And it's something we've talked about in the newsroom, like, "Luke,

you need to write a column about how we don't hate 'The Spokesman.'"

I think the thing that's like would be really, really important maybe for

us to close out with here or spend at least a little bit of time here talking

about in the last 10 minutes or so is like, what's the value of a daily paper?

Why do we need it to be strong?

Like I-- I'll just say personally, like this has nothing to do…

Like this comes actually from a deep love of "The Spokesman-Review."

Like there's a reason.

Like I didn't start reading the newspaper 'cause it wasn't like part

of my family's culture until I was in college, and the two papers that I read

my senior year of college, 'cause they were delivered free to campus, was "The

Spokesman" and "The New York Times."

And I think that's like where I developed my love of like

really good daily journalism.

I gotta think that doing what you're doing over a, a region of three states, you're--

when- whenever you need to, or some- one of your reporters needs to dig into a city

that you're looking at the paper partially to start getting background and stuff.

So maybe, yeah, like what, as reporters who are mostly focused on investigations,

which I think all the two of you are, and that's, you know, the majority of

what I think about when I'm editing at Range, like how badly does good

investigative journalism need to be sort of l- laid on a foundation of

like really solid daily journalism?

I mean, yeah, that's- Yeah … that is the foundation of, and it's harder

and harder as like, you know, the As journalists know, like in the good

old days of journalism, the daily paper had an investigations team.

Right.

And they would be closely working with you know, maybe the daily

reporters on ideas born from that reporting into investigations.

Yeah.

And so right now it's just like with the media ecosystem that's fractured and it's

like, you know, we exist at Investigate West as like sort of kind of replacing

the I-teams of daily papers in parts.

Mm-hmm.

And so that's why we like to collaborate with people doing that work locally,

'cause it, it just feels more natural.

Like, we don't wanna parachute in and- Right … and pretend

like we know everything that's going on in the community.

But like, I, I have, I know less than I did when I was a, a reporter at

The Inlander because I'm not doing that reporting every day, even though

I've lived in Spokane the whole time.

So, yeah, I think just the best, the best investigations come from people

who are seeing, seeing it every day, you know, know the, the big players

and the powerful people in the community and, and know where to look.

Yeah.

What about you, Daisy?

Yeah, I mean, I've been daily newspaper-ing it, whatever.

Yeah.

Up until I came to Range.

Right.

And so I have a really deep appreciation for that.

Like, I did cops and courts also.

Yeah.

Like the first couple years, and it's brutal.

But it, but the daily newspapers really help keep everybody informed, and it's

those reporters that are there at the, like, extensive meetings- Yeah … you

know, that we don't make it to, that we're not there for, and telling

people, like, what they need to know.

And like, you know, Range, like, we're here to just supplement a lot

of that or tell the stories that fall through the cracks that are, you

know, underrepresented, underreported.

But yeah, like, I can't imagine us being able to do it as well without

a healthy, like, newspaper around.

Absolutely.

And I think, and, you know, I think the ecosystem here has gotten a lot

more congenial than it wa- You know, it was more competitive, you know, in

the early aughts and my first stint in journalism when I was at The Inlander,

and I never really understood why exactly.

I also wasn't writing news back then, so, you know, there were fewer arts reporters,

so maybe we were all the arts reporters at The Spokesman and The Inlander were like

a like a bellwether of things to come.

But like, I was like, "God, I wish I could partner with Som Jordan, not compete

with him on stuff," and whatever, and Tom Bowers and some other folks that

worked at The Spokesman at the time.

It really feels more and more though like it's getting to be, like you were

saying, if, if teams like ours and teams like yours, Wilson, are increasingly,

like, replacing or, or, you know, having to fill the shoes that used to be filled

by a daily paper's investigative team- then it's in all of our best interest, it

feels like, to become more collaborative as a, as an industry in order to survive.

I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, but that's Yeah.

Y- I was actually just talking to some of my reporters at InvestigateWest about

this exact thing last week b- because, you know, I think they weren't, you

know, 10, 15 years ago they weren't in journalism and, but at that time,

like, it, it felt more competitive and like, you know, sometimes on like social

media, I remember like reporters would take little jabs at each other, Totally

and, I may have thrown and received some of those jabs over the years.

Yeah.

So yeah, we all do, we all do it.

It was part of it.

… And I think that's received a lot differently these days- I think

you're right … I think because, you know, our industry has shrunk

so much that it's kind of like, why are we not helping each other out?

Why are we not propping each other up?

And so like, yeah, there's a competitive aspect to, you know, we still wanna beat

people on stories, but like, you know, taking public shots against other n-

newsrooms or other journalists just kind of feels like it's, it's never worth it.

Yeah.

And that was another…

That was something that we did not wanna do with this story, and I think you know,

the reporters that spoke to us, like I think s- some of their initial hesitation

was like speaking to a competitor, Uh-huh … or like other reporters in

Spokane, because, you know, they are at the daily newspaper in Spokane.

They feel like they should be breaking the story.

So- Right … I think they, It wasn't a competitive a- aspect, but we

definitely had to build the trust with them and and, you know, kind of make

clear that like, you know, in general like, you know, we- we're gonna be

fair, we're gonna get all the sides that we need to on th- on this story.

But also like, you know, just as journal- local journalists in the same

community, like, there's definitely a sort of kinship there that we were sort

of in it together and we, we wanna fight for just like journalism as a whole.

And I think that's also sort of inspiring with this story of like journalists

that were standing up for integrity.

Absolutely.

And that's kind of, I think, what the takeaway could be.

Yeah.

What about you, Izzy?

I think that's a good ending.

Yeah.

I agree.

I mean, I was like on the verge of tears kind of thinking of reading…

'Cause I'd, I'd heard the story about lock- you know, the Treffry

and Alex Dugan locking, or basically being locked in the photo room.

And just thinking about the solidarity that comes from that.

I tweeted about this, but like, I don't know.

Like that's…

We've I've had some of the most knock-down, drag-out fights I've

ever had with people in newsrooms.

And I also don't know that I ever worked at a, at a, any workplace and I

include both "The Inlander" when I was there and "The Range" in this, where,

like, the feelings of, like, solidarity and camaraderie were higher than…

And I mean, if you guys have both mostly worked only journalism jobs, like I've

been in advertising, I've been in a lot of different, and in arts, and in places

where you would think that there would be similar levels of solidarity, and there

is to some degree, but nothing beats a newsroom for my money, man, in times

of feeling like you, when it's working.

And it, and again, like I don't, I don't have an experience of feeling, of working

inside of a divided newsroom because I think we all complain about everything

and we're usually complaining about our bosses, whether it's justified or not.

But like Yeah, I just don't know what it would be like to be in a

newsroom where it did feel like there were divided loyalties.

And that'd be really, really hard because it is such personal, deeply

personal work, brutally difficult work, largely thankless work.

And you develop this real bond as, as professionals.

And then, you know, and that bond usually is around some sort of standard,

a mutually s- agreed upon standard of truth, and honesty, and transparency.

So maybe with…

We mi- I'm gonna just record a couple extra minutes for safety here.

What do we think, and this might cau- cause for speculation, so maybe give

me some options if you don't wanna just speculate, what's next for Rob Curley?

What's next for the investigation, if you have any sense of that?

What's next for the transition to a nonprofit?

Just what's next?

Or what are some options of what could possibly be coming next if

we don't really know what's next?

I don't know.

But I really question how seriously they're taking this when they decline

to speak to us, when they haven't published a statement, and then they

just quietly update their FAQ with their board president's resignation.

Right.

Yeah.

And, like, who's now there as the head of the board.

Right.

Yeah, so yeah, we don't even know who the board president of CALM is currently.

You're right.

No, we do.

Oh, do we?

Who is it?

George Brunt.

Okay.

So George Brunt was the one who was on the record, did give you guys a comment

saying that they're not gonna speak until the outcome of the investigation,

but they, but George Brunt said that he had concerns about, or, like, the- Yeah

the good faithness of the investigation?

He had concerns that, you know, the investigation was

biased against Rob, Rob Curley.

And so yeah, that's kind of where we're at now, where we're still waiting for the

results of the internal investigation, although we- we're not expecting to

know what the investigation said.

But the, the decisions that are ma- gonna be made from that, um Uh, you know,

what's gonna happen with Rob Curley?

Is he gonna, you know, stay with the newsroom or not?

A- and then when the transition to Common might happen, like it keeps being delayed.

As of now, the last I heard was it's gonna happen October 30th, and Stacy

Coles has maintained that as of when I-- or when we last asked him last week.

But, you know, there could be situations where Rob Curley is no longer with the

Spokesman-Review, but he still is with Common, and then Common absorbs the

Spokesman-Review, and then, then what happens to the newsroom employees next?

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Sorry, one more thing that I just thought of when you brought up Stacy Coles.

I've underlined this a number of different places, and this is not something you

would expect in most sort of labor situations, but is the a pub- is the

publisher effectively the owner of the paper, Stacy Coles, is he one of the

heroes of this story in the r- in the minds of the reporters you guys talked to?

I wouldn't say they described him as a hero.

Actually, they-- With a-- There's a direct quote of "Lindsay Trefry

is the hero of this story."

Yeah.

That's how one person put it to me.

But I, I, I will say that the reporters didn't really have any

ill will towards Stacy Coles.

I think they all feel like he's doing what he thinks is the best and he's trying to

manage kind of a tough situation here.

So- Yeah … they didn't have anything necessarily bad to say about him at all.

But saying he's the hero I think might be a- A little bit too much.

But at least, At least an ally in the sort of at, at least an ally in

this moment maybe, of like getting Rob out of the office for a time

to sort of let cooler heads prevail and let an investigation happen.

It's, it seems like that's how the newsroom sees it at, right now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right, y'all.

Well, any, any final thoughts?

Like…

I just wanna say that we have a lot of respect for the reporters there.

the Redditor who said that.

Yeah, right.

I think it was on Reddit that people were kind of speculating that the

reason we wrote about it- Right

was because we have some ill will toward "The Spokesman-Review,"

which is just not true.

No, I mean, I, I'll speak for myself.

Like, Range couldn't exist in the form that it exists without

a robust "Spokesman-Review."

And I mean, Rob Curley kinda rode into town.

He knew what you were getting.

He was already a somewhat of a known quantity, at least in journalism circles.

And even still, like, s- there has been so much retrenchment and so mu- so

many layoffs nationwide over the years.

Even the idea of somebody coming in and saying, "Hey, we're gonna give you raises,

and we're gonna have more reporters," like, that's an intoxicating proposition.

So I, like, both understand why it it was compelling to the Coles family,

and I, I definitely understand why reporters have lived through 10 years

of this, because the promise of, the promise of stability is a really, is

a really powerful thing, you know?

And yeah, I guess we'll leave it there.

There'll be more to come on this, I'm sure, whether we do another

deep dive partnership investigation on the "Spokesman-Review" saga.

I really thought this was a pretty awesome thing for us to do as a

team, so we hope to be working with you guys again soon, Wilson.

So thanks for thanks for wanting to partner with us.

Yeah

Yeah, she is kind of the best, huh?

Yeah.

She doesn't-- She hates compliments, like everybody else on our team.

It's great.

I get, I get to be the, the hype man who just says nice things and

then gets awkward stares back.

It's really wonderful.

All right.

This has been, this has been your weekly Free Range.

Once again, my guests were Wilson Criscione of InvestigateWest, and my

colleague at Range, Daisy Zavala Magaña.

I'm Luke Baumgarten.

Thanks so much for listening.

This is KYRS Thin Air Community Radio, Medical Lake Spokane.

See you next week, everyone.

Bye.