Keith Pepper has a handy reminder of his goal with Rough Draft Atlanta: a Post-It note on his computer that reads simply “meaningful, not massive.”

That’s the approach Keith has taken with Rough Draft Atlanta, a local news business focused on well-heeled areas of the Atlanta area that Keith has built after buying a clutch of community newspapers in 2020. Keith has mostly worked on the tech side of media his entire career, but he felt the pull to local news for the next phase of his career. We discuss how Rough Draft relies on direct mail of all things as a critical and reliable distribution channel, why print still far outpaces digital in monetization of local, and making tough choices in the balance of hard news and service journalism that often gets a bad wrap but is critical utility for local news. 

This episode is sponsored by Piano. Piano’s Digital Revenue Optimization solution helps digital services grow revenue by better understanding and influencing their customers’ behavior. Piano unifies analytics, segmentation, and commercial personalization in one AI-driven application, enabling sites and apps to efficiently maximize the value of every user visit. For more information, visit piano.io.

On Oct 2, I'll be speaking at the Piano Academy in Paris. My talk will focus on "things that won't change" in the AI era. Find out more about the Piano Academy.

Welcome to the Rebooting Show.

I am Brian Morrisey.

This week's episode is brought to you by our partners at piano.

I'm about to leave for Paris, where I'll be speaking at the Piano Academy next week.

I'm gonna be talking about what won't change with AI because I think there's so much up in the air that.

It makes even more sense than ever to stick to the famous Jeff Bezos dictum that it's better to focus on what won't change rather than try to define what will change.

piano Academy runs October 1st and second, and I'll leave a link in the show notes for anyone.

In the area and interested in attending.

if you don't know already, piano's, digital revenue optimization solution helps digital services.

Grow revenue by better understanding and influencing their customer's behavior.

Piano unifies, analytics, segmentation and commercial personalization in one AI driven application that enables sites and apps to efficiently maximize the value of every user visit.

Piano works with, a global client base including BBC Deutsche Telecom, Neke, A XA, and the Wall Street Journal.

Former more information, visit piano.io.

On this week's episode, I spoke to Keith Pepper, the publisher of Rough Draft Atlanta.

I have known Keith for.

A long while, but not as the publisher of a local news company.

I got to know Keith when, and we talk about this in the episode, when he was an executive at, different tech companies such as like Hitwise and Outbrain.

in 2020, Keith decided to dive into local news by acquiring a cluster of Atlanta community papers, that were almost entirely print.

since then, he's rebranded the company.

He's made it digital first with daily newsletters and he is also kept a profitable.

Print product, believe it or not, that lands in mailboxes.

I found this really fascinating because print is still profitable, particularly on a local level.

we talk about, the lane that rough draft has picked between, you know, city council accountability and also the where to eat this weekend.

but also I really liked getting into the economics of a direct mail model.

I think direct mail in some ways is underrated.

we talk about this in this episode because, you know, the inbox is, I know this is someone who sends a lot of email.

The email inboxes are very crowded and, the actual mailbox is somewhat less crowded these days.

Bit of a turnabout.

Everything comes back in style.

We also discuss, why real estate and healthcare are the right advertisers, for these kind of local models.

and the broader lesson here, which is that local can work.

You know, if you build for utility and stay.

As Keith says, meaningful, not massive.

that is I think something that every single publisher these days should probably take to heart, because that is the direction that a lot of this industry is going, and I think that can be actually a good thing.

I really enjoyed this discussion with Keith about how to make local news, a sustainable business proposition, and having a diverse business model to back it up.

As always, I'd love to hear your feedback.

My email is brian@therebooting.com.

Now here's my conversation with Keith.

Keith.

So glad to be doing this.

We go way back.

I say this to a lot of guests, but we do truly go way back.

I was going back creeping on your LinkedIn to, to, to try to piece it together and I think it was Hitwise.

I don't think, I think our t our paths might have crossed for, for a minute at,

I think they crossed at Jupiter.

Did they on

Yeah, I think, I think I was, it was the time when, when Alan Meckler owned.

Jupiter or

had had acquired Jupiter and we were in sort of different pieces of the company, but I'm

pretty sure it was that office on Park Avenue South.

absolutely.

Weirdest office in the world.

Yeah, it was like being John Malkovich, where like it got off at like the 11th floor and then walked up a, a set of stairs and was working in a windowless.

Office, which I don't think is legal.

I mean, if a, Alan, if you're listening, like, I don't think that was legal.

And so I used to go at lunch and walk around Bryant Park to, to get a little vitamin D.

Yeah.

And a great guy in Gillard's coffee shop

Yeah, that's true.

That's true.

I like, I like the

yeah, yeah.

So I think it goes back to that, which was like 2002

Oh yeah, that was after, after the.com.

Like I was just, I was just staying quiet.

I'd already lost a job.

I'd lost basically my first job, like, and so I was like, okay, I know how to do it.

Just keep quiet.

Keeping your cubicle.

Don't, don't bother anyone, type.

So anyway, you have, you know, you, you were on like the analytics side.

I remember then with, with, with Hitwise.

You were at the Atlanta Journal constitution for a little bit, but you were, you were on the tech side, you were at Outbrain for, for many years.

And then Hitwise had been acquired by, I guess was it Cheetah mail and then Experian.

Hitwise was acquired by Che, by, uh, Experian, but Cheetah Mail

was part of that

Okay.

and then, somehow somewhere you found yourself into local news.

How did this, how did this come about?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, even before I knew you, when I was a kid, I talked my way into a job at WSB Radio, which is the sort of the flagship AM station of Cox back in the day.

And, I grew up in a house where we, it was a media obsessed house, so I get it naturally, but we used to get three newspapers every morning delivered.

So the Atlanta Constitution,

USA today, when that started.

And the Wall Street Journal and

Was USA today.

Their big thing was they had color photos.

color photos and none of the stories jumped.

So they were the, I mean they were the

original

that was innovation and news back then

Yeah.

And the one page with every

and infographics.

They were good at infographics.

Yeah, they were, they were the first buzzfeed before it was a

thing.

And, and I was so cool in high school that I personally subscribed Atlanta had two papers back then, so I personally subscribed to the afternoon paper.

so we every day got four newspapers delivered to

What was the afternoon paper in Atlanta?

was the Atlanta Journal.

So they were both owned by Cox, same

newsroom, just two different,

Okay.

That was, Philly had something similar.

It was the Philadelphia Enquirer.

There was the Daily News.

That was the evening.

There was the, for the, for the real old school people out there.

There was the bulletin, but that like went away in like

Yeah.

or something.

I was a kid

Yeah.

So at some point in the eighties, they merged they retired the afternoon paper.

So yeah, so I worked all, and I got this job at WSB just producing, teaching myself, hanging around and ended up working there through.

You know, my junior and senior year of high school.

And then, and then, and then through college I went to Georgia, to the Grady Journalism School at Georgia and worked.

I'm holding a, a, pen 'cause I just joined the advisory board, there and, and, and worked through high school and college and then after college, worked for a year producing the morning show.

of the AM news station.

So, you know, for New Yorkers it was like 10, 10 wins, or WCBS.

And, and I did that and, I basically burned myself out of news.

I was working, you know, waking up at three in the morning, working the morning show, and so left that whole career.

ended up in New York.

And

Right.

around the, right around right before Y 2K, so for, and, and got a job at Jupyter Communications at the time, and it was pre-merger with, media metrics and net ratings and, and,

and because I wanted to get into sales, but I was always seen as like a, a production guy when I was at, at the radio station.

So they wouldn't even look at me for sales.

So I ended up getting into sales there and, and had a great time doing, working at Jupiter.

and then it Hitwise and then Experian, and then ended up at Outbrain in 2015 and really didn't know anything about ad tech, like my background was in, was in research and data, and worked at Outbrain.

Had a great experience, but I was ad tech just wasn't for me and I was burnt out and for family reasons.

Wanted to get back to Atlanta, and came back here in 2019.

And started looking for something to do locally and really just kind of like slow down with a local focus.

Georgia was getting much more interesting politically, there was so much more going on in Atlanta and ended up looking at a, a bunch of small businesses, and one of them was a

group of local newspapers that was for sale and the, the guy that had started them was turning 70 and he didn't have a succession plan.

And, and right now in that, that point, we're in the pandemic and people weren't exactly lining up to buy, newspaper companies.

And, and the company was 98 plus percent print revenue.

really no digital strategy.

So, long story short, I went to a bunch of friends and I said, please talk me out of this.

I've got this crazy idea.

And nobody would, everyone, people that had known me for four months, people that had known me for 40 years.

They said, this sounds great, perfect for you.

and I did it.

And so in, in, in 2020, we reached an agreement and in December of 2020, I woke up one day and I owned a newspaper company.

Wow.

I mean, look, I made a lot of weird decisions during the pandemic.

I, I, I, you know, I bought an NFT and stuff, so I, so hopefully this was a, this was a better one.

I made some good decisions, but,

I mean, people, you know, I think all those people that talked me into it were like, wait, you did what?

And I think I remember reaching out to you not long after

and, and you were very,

Yeah, my board, my bored ape.

I was like, you kidding, Keith?

Like, I've got a bored ape.

That's been up.

no, but what did you end up saying?

Was this like, kind of like a gut thing?

Like was it like, you know, 'cause it does sound like.

It's a little romantic, right?

Like the idea, okay, you know, you'd been in New York and you're, you're working for tech companies and everything like this.

You move back to Atlanta.

It's not like it's like some small town or something like this, but then you're like, okay.

I grew up getting the papers and all of that, and I'm now going to be, you know, reviving this, this like local paper.

but what was the, like, what did you see business wise?

'cause like, you know, I know you and I know you, like you, you know, you, you, you do business.

Yeah, well one was, it was, you know, the company was profitable, but it was going in the wrong direction and I, I was able to get a pretty good deal.

So, you know, I think Warren Buffet said it's not when you sell a business, it's when you buy a business.

so I was able to get a good deal.

I think at the time I saw that there was no, I really, from the.

You know, laying out the plan.

At the very beginning, I knew that we, there were a lot of savings to come up with like the, at the time there were three different CMS, three different websites, three different CMSs.

they were doing almost no di they were giving away digital ads.

There's almost no digital revenue.

So I knew, you know, they were paying a lot of money each month for an office with fax machines and, you know, a lot, like a lot of tech expenses that we, you know, we immediately got rid of.

So I saw a bunch of savings there and they had, and the company had a great reputation in the communities that we serve.

so I saw that and I was able to strike, I mean, at the time interest rates were zero, when, when we were going through the process.

And so, I was able to to, you know, put together a really, you know, good deal.

had really.

Expert advice from a friend whose family owned community newspapers around the southeast.

So he helped me put a valuation on it that, you know, was aggressive on for me, but fair, for the buyer.

So, yeah, and I, and I wanted something that I could dive into.

And so that's, you know, that part has really borne out.

It's been, you know, for me, it was a, it was as much of getting a lifestyle business, as anything.

So I, I, I wanted something that I felt passionate

about and all that.

all.

Passion about, about media and, and this passion about Atlanta came together to make it, you know, a, an analytical decision, but there was a lot of gut involved for sure.

I mean, the second month that I owned the paper, the revenue was down like 20%.

And I was freaking out.

I was, and,

and you know, every article I read from, from people like you was about the industry.

And I read a lot where it's all just, you know, doom and gloom.

So I remember sitting on the, in this office behind me, like in the fetal position, like, what did I do?

and I, you know, got, got it together.

I knew that we could freshen up the brand.

I knew that we could launch a newsletter, which has been very successful.

So just got to work, doing the basics.

And we've turned it around ever since.

Ever since then.

So te tell me about the, the asset like that.

Tell everyone about like what, what rough draft is

Yeah.

So we're a group, we're a hyper-local media organization in metro Atlanta, so we serve.

communities in, the kind of the inner suburbs of Atlanta.

certainly some of the more affluent zip codes.

we have monthly print publications, that are direct mailed into homes,

so it's a different.

model than, you know, than throwing it on the driveway or just distributing for free.

So we direct mail.

we've flipped the company to become digital first.

So, everything is, you know, goes on the web website first and then social media simultaneously.

And then we send daily newsletters to 50,000 subscribers.

and that includes a morning newsletter, which is kind of a general interest newsletter, and then an afternoon, a series of afternoon newsletters that are more vertical.

So, one day we do seniors, one day we do art.

we do food twice a week.

and so we're, you know, we're touching people through print, through the website and through newsletters.

Okay, and you're doing news.

We're doing news, but we're, we're not doing deep investigative news.

you know, I think of, you know, if you think of the continuum between, you know, on the one side local government development board stuff, school board stuff, and then on the other side, like art, food, real estate, culture.

We're kind of, we try to be in the middle of those things.

So we certainly are covering city council meetings in, in, in some of the towns around Atlanta.

but we're also doing, you know, we, our food editor for example, used to be the editor of Eater Atlanta, so she left, eater to come work for us.

we've got, you know, we've got people that have been writing for us for over 20, 20 years covering arts, culture real estate in, in Atlanta.

Yeah.

So tell me about that balance, right?

Because I think when a lot of people talk about the challenges of local news and local news deserts, and particularly in the journalism industry and rightly so, they, they think about this sort of accountability journalism.

You always hear who's gonna go to the community board meetings and whatnot.

And look, there are some people, like my friends at 6:00 AM like, they're saying, Hey, we're gonna skip news altogether.

We're just gonna go to, you know, what do I gotta, what, what is there to do this weekend?

You know, what are the festivals?

What are, you know, the new restaurants and, and that kind of.

Coverage is more commercially viable.

I mean, back when local news was, you know, a bigger business, it was, you know, it's all part of a bundle, right?

But that sort of subsidized, the, you know, look faring out corruption on the, like, you know, town council or whatever is not like the most lucrative of endeavors.

Like, I don't think, you know, the, the cost of reward just isn't there.

How do you end up thinking about that?

Well, I think of it just like that.

I mean, it's a, that side, unfortunately, that side of the, of the continuum, which is critical for democracy.

And we're seeing that every day in the current, in, you know, we're recording this in, in middle of September.

We're, we're, we're seeing that every day now.

It's, It's a, it's kind of a terrible business and you know, I need to, you know, we need to be profitable, we need to be sustainable, So I, I see it as, as trying to aim to be in the middle of that.

you know, we're doing, we're covering those, those events.

we're covering those, those city council meetings in

particular, in, in some communities.

But Atlanta's not a news desert, like you're seeing around, you know, that's the crisis that's going on around the country.

There's, you know, Atlanta's got four TV news operations here.

you know, we've got two NPR.

Newsrooms here.

we've got a ton of nonprofit, you know, news sites that have popped up.

So I think we've picked a lane, which is a, it's kind of a balance between, those two sides, between the, the hard news and the, and the food.

I mean, the, yeah.

So we, so we don't, we don't try to play in a lane that we're not, that we're not e experts in.

Okay.

so there's three different, I guess, like publications, right?

Like, 'cause I was talking with a, a local news entrepreneur, the other day, and he was, he was saying, you need a, you need a bunch of publications to make these work.

He goes, doing, doing it with like, one is like, he, in his view, it was like impossible.

He's like, you have to have like many of them I don't, what are you, what are you seeing on the ground?

Does that resonate at all?

I mean, we, we took, so I took what the time was three different publications.

and we still print and print.

We still print.

I have to actually count because I'm looking, I'm looking at the screen.

But, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 covers a month, that were printing.

but we, we, we took those at the time when I bought the three papers, we combined the digital footprint into one.

So.

So we, we consolidated there.

at the end of last year, we acquired the Georgia Voice, which is the local or the regional L-G-B-T-Q paper.

So I think that maybe what you're, you're pointing out is, is sort of finding other publications, you know, that serve verticals or geogra or geographies that are, that makes sense for us in putting them into one umbrella.

I like that.

I mean, I think that that that's right.

I mean, I think that we know we need to be able to, to look at those two, you know, to look at growing through, you know, through geography.

and that really means like contiguous to where we are because it's, it's, harder, it is easy for me to have a salesperson

that's covering a neighborhood that can then be in the, you know, be in another city or community, you know, an hour later

for a meeting.

And same with journalism.

Yeah, this is very different than the 6:00 AM.

You're not gonna stamp out like, do a playbook and stamp out rough draft, Charlotte, rough draft, you know, Knoxville.

I don't see that happening now.

Right.

so I'm sure you know, coming from the digital side, when you went in, you, you were like, okay, we're gonna make the, you set digital first, and, but I assume you found out the print was like, really, was really profitable.

Actually a profitable business too.

Print.

I mean, the print is, is the print is still profitable.

I mean, I told you when I bought the company, it was 98 plus percent of the

revenue.

and and even today it's, it's 75% of our revenue.

and so it's still critical to, you know, to what we do.

yeah.

Critical if it's 75% of revenue,

yeah, yeah, I mean, it gives us a, it

gives us

was that surprising to you that that, Print was still, and what did you chalk it up to?

Is it just that's what advertisers were used to buying?

Or is it that actually in this market, print is a better delivery vehicle for, for, you know, for this product?

Well, I think for local advertisers, print is a, for certain local advertisers, certain types.

It's a great.

Product.

And because, you know, if you think about our delivery mechanism, because we're do doing it through direct mail, it, it's, it's really

like the, if you walk into an ad agency today, especially with younger media planners and you say, Hey guys, what's your newspaper budget?

You're gonna get a bunch of blank stares.

But if you talk about, you know, that we're delivering a high quality newsprint product that looks really nice, tabloid format into mailboxes in Atlanta's most.

You know, some of the most affluent zip codes that resonates with, with advertisers.

And, you know, if you look at our advertising base, it's the ideal for us are advertisers that have, low transaction volume, but high transaction value.

So real estate, financial planning, you know, specialty healthcare.

Those are, those are the types of, specialty medical.

Those are the types of advertisers that get a ton of value.

So very top of funnel, advertising.

We almost have no restaurant bar advertising that you used to see in the free, you know, community papers of, you know, of, of years ago.

we almost don't, we don't even really prospect much to restaurants or, or bars.

so we, we've got a, we've got a great product for, For, you know, for real estate, we get a lot of support from the arts.

secondary schools, private schools in the area are, are a good advertising base.

So I think that the, the, you know, for, for the digital, you know, advertising world is, is confusing for small businesses in, you know, in, in region and it's hard to target.

And, In this area, and we're giving people a product, a high quality product that's getting into the mailbox.

And so I think that's the big differentiator.

Yeah, the direct mail sort of, angle to it is interesting, right?

Because it's not Explain, explain why that is valuable in the

Well, I mean, it's valuable because, because it's, You know, people don't pick up print like they used to.

So it's, you know, if, but if it shows up in your mailbox, if it's a surprise and delight and

it's a good product, it's high quality newsprint, it's got, you know, engaging photos on the front, you're gonna, you're gonna be more likely to flip through it.

and we're seeing that happen where, I mean, we also distribute.

You know, about 90% of our distribution is through direct mail, and the other 10% goes to coffee shops and dry cleaners and community centers and libraries.

But we're just seeing that, that that side of the business, you know, is not, is falling off.

And so we're trying to increase, you know, where we can, where we can mail, because that, that part is, is just a differentiator for us.

So explain to me how this works.

So do people subscribe and get it, or do you buy like lists and send it to them?

Mm-hmm.

We, we, well, we use, we use what's called Every Door Direct.

So it's a US Postal Service product, and you, and it, you, you buy mail routes.

So essentially every single family home on the mail routes that we pick.

so we're not buying a list necessarily, but we're, we're, we're delivering.

We're delivering papers in bulk to the post office, to like the, the regional postal center.

I forget, forget the name.

Our printer handles all this, so it's all outsourced and

then the mail carrier takes it and it just goes in every mailbox on their routes.

Yeah.

And what's interesting, 'cause this came up, actually I did, this dinner earlier this week here in New York.

And, direct mail came up ho honestly, as people were trying to build direct audience connections, you know, one of

these digital, a digital first publisher, a will named that which one, was talking about looking, looking hard at direct mail.

because weirdly, the inbox is really, really, really crowded.

The, the, the mailbox is less crowded.

yeah.

Exactly.

Exactly.

okay.

So it's still very print centric.

Right.

What about, I mean, we see a lot of people give me the revenue breakdown.

'cause I, I don't think you're doing a ton on the.

Sort of events and gathering side.

I see a lot of like local, betting on, on that.

I mean, there's, there's ups and downs to, to to that.

It's, it's more difficult to pull off, I think, than a lot of people think.

Yeah, I mean, our revenue mix is, is 99% advertising.

and of that 99%, 74% is, is print right now.

the rest is digital.

And for us, digital means display ads.

email newsletters and sponsored content.

And then the other 1% is, reader revenue.

So the membership program.

So we have, you know, the other two buckets of revenue for, for publishers these days are, like you said, events and in merchandise.

And we haven't, we haven't gone into that, those spaces yet.

I mean, I, I, we did, we dabbled in events.

last year we did two small events.

One we did with a partner.

A food festival where we had a, a branded dinner, and then one was a small author event that we did.

both were successful, but I just think we don't have the people power right now to make that, you know, a meaningful revenue stream.

There are publishers in, in our market that are doing great with events.

Mostly the, you know, the, the Business Chronicle, the Biz Journals group does a great job with events, multiple events a month where they're, you know, getting great crowds in the room.

But we haven't, we haven't been able to, To really at attack that yet.

Yeah.

How about like, you know, do you have like 10 pole franchises or get into the accolades business?

I think one of the, one of the good things about community and local is, you know, it's like literally a lot of people are trying to be the hometown paper of different, like, you know, industries if you will.

Like, and it allows you to.

You know, celebrate the local entrepreneurs and various other things that, you know, maybe on a national level, you think about like a Forbes or something and that kind of business.

It's a, it's, it's one of their, you know, a really important business line to them.

Do you guys get into that?

Because I mean, a lot of people in, in, in this field do,

No, we, I mean, we've looked at the best of, is, I get

what you're saying best of Yeah.

We've got the, we've got the, the, platform to do it.

but we haven't, we haven't jumped in there yet.

There's a, there's a handful of best ofs in the market.

so it's not something that we've got, we've, we've attacked yet.

But the, but it's, if we wanted to turn it on, we've got the technology to do it.

Okay, so talk to me about the, the transition to digital because like, there's a little bit of a gap because

you're saying that, and I'm not even saying that, like, you know, maybe a couple years ago I'd be like, oh, you've got it.

Like, the future is just digital.

I'm like, I'm actually more intrigued by analog every day now, for different reasons.

but.

Talk to me about that, because I mean, you're talking about being a digital first company, but you know you've got, what, 75% of your revenue in print.

This is almost, you know, it's completely, completely opposite.

well, I say digital first for our, our content delivery.

So we reach a much bigger audience on digital than we do in print.

And digital has allowed us to expand geographically.

So when I bought the company it was, it had a different name that was much more tied to a, to a geography.

And so by rebranding it as rough draft, we were able to become geographically agnostic and by expanding our coverage.

Digitally we're able to grow our audience.

Otherwise, as a print publication, you're, you're very, you know, tied, you're like landlocked to where you're distributing that paper because we're not, you know, because we're doing the

direct mail, we can't direct mail beyond, I mean, we're, right now we're doing 90,000, you know, our circulation is 90,000 for our direct mail product.

And then we have with the Georgia Voice, that's a different distribution model.

but we can't, you know, we're, it's very hard to expand.

To other geographies with print.

So being digital first, meaning our newsletter, you know, goes every morning to almost 50,000 subscribers, that's, you know, we're getting more readership on a daily basis than, than we ever got with with print.

And because the cadence of print is only monthly, then we, we didn't have any opportunity to engage with advertisers in between those, you know, those, monthly print editions.

And so now, by having the website.

You know, being digital first means our website has 20 posts a day, sometimes more.

And then our newsletter, you know, is going out in the morning and then another newsletter, at least one, is going out in the afternoon.

So we've got much more inventory to, you know, to sell to advertisers and much more, and many more touch points with,

with readers.

but there it's still only 25%.

What I'm saying is like you're, the print product that still goes out just like once a month is 75% of revenue.

What gets and is that just, do you think that's like.

The, the norm of the mix or is that just you're in an in-between period where digital for, through a bunch of different ways will catch up and it will match its reach and engagement if, if people are engaging with it way more.

I assume you're, you basically have 80% of your engagement.

I remember this at Adweek, we had this, it was like 80% of our engagement were, were in digital, you know, products, blogs, newsletters, sites and stuff.

And 80% of our revenue was in a print product.

and that was just a in between period.

I mean, this was back in like the financial crisis years.

I'm just wondering how you see that, if that normalizes or if this is just a different type of market.

no, I think it, I don't think it, I don't think it, I mean, one, it's the, the percentages are staying that way because the overall revenue is growing,

Right.

so print revenue's up, digital revenue.

I mean, since, since I bought the company Digital revenue's up three, three x,

So it's growing faster than print.

Oh yeah.

So the digital revenue looks like a hockey stick.

It's growing way faster than print.

Okay.

So is, is the end goal like 50 50 or do you see that like inevitably, like, you know, or is that unimportant?

I don't, I don't think I have a goal for that.

I mean, if print keeps, if print keeps growing and, and we can keep the margins like we do, because, you know, with, with our print model, we're able to, you know, this past month we had our best month.

Since like 2018 in print and we, you know, we printed 56 pages in our paper this month, but if we have a slower sales month, we just print fewer pages.

So we're always keeping that margin.

you know, the ratio of, of, of ads to editorial where, where we need it to be for, you know, for our business.

But with, with digital, I mean, as you know, we can't, I mean, our page view just being the size we are being in the market that we're in.

You know, be having news only for the region.

It can only get so big.

And so we, you know, our, so we're, we're growing, our newsletters are growing, so that's a good source of digital revenue.

Our, our sponsored content.

So our sales team has done a great job of selling, sponsored learning, how to sell sponsored content.

and those are, you know, those are huge for, for us.

And so, so I don't see, I don't really have a, a goal in mind and maybe I should of what that ratio should be.

as long as we can keep the print, I mean, print costs keep going up, so, you know, it's, it's the per page costs since

2020.

literally the ink in the paper

or the, the

the, raw materials of like the yeah, I mean a lot of that was driven, you know, during COVID, a lot of, because, you know, because of the state of newspapers, a lot of.

You know, mills that used

to produce newsprint are out of business.

And so now they're making, you know, cardboard boxes for e-commerce.

And so the newsprint and the printing costs have gone up 72%.

So, and the mailing costs have gone up, you know, just in the last year have gone up 15%.

So we've gotta keep that, you know, I don't know, I don't know what that ratio shakes out at.

I, I mean, I probably, I probably should know.

but I think that the, there's a model for us.

in print, being monthly, being direct mail, and being the tabloid format, which just means that we can go up or down in pages very easily.

Yeah.

what's been the biggest challenge so far, you know, owning and operating this,

I should have been prepared for that question.

that's an

I mean, the, the, the, uh,

You're in local news.

Come on.

I'm gonna have to ask

that.

I mean, the biggest challenge other than the macroeconomic challenges for me is this is my first.

Time owning a business.

And, you know, I'm kind of the accidental entrepreneur, so I didn't, you know just like everyone raise their, just like people raise their eyebrow at me are like, you're doing what?

Like, it wasn't something that I, that I saw myself doing.

you know, that said, I've created the, the perfect job for me.

I love, you know, it's put me in, in conversations in rooms that I never thought I would be in.

And, you know, a really exciting

you were telling me, you're like, you're like, like, you know, 'cause you're like, you're the operator of like newspapers and so then you're like, you know, you're meeting the sheriff or whatever.

I assume.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I, you know, meeting mayors, I was senators, I was, you know, I was the, I, I was the chair of the Atlanta Press Club for two years.

you know, I'm still a board member there.

I've gotten to be on, you know, boards.

I never thought I would, so, so it's incredible.

I mean, but the, the challenge for me, I mean, one is, is when I came into the business.

The, you know, it was a print focused organization, so I got a lot of, that's not how we do it, that's not how we do it.

A lot of pushback, you know, early on to some, to some changes of making that shift.

I got it.

you know, so I learned a lot early on in that process.

but just the, you know, the macro trends of the industry are, you know, are, are very stressful.

the, the, what we're doing on a small level is very encouraging.

we're having our, you know, we're having, we're, we're, we're growing this year.

we just had an, you know, we're up 30%, this quarter for q, you know, Q3 over last year.

So we're, we're, we're, our brand is getting recognized, like we're, you know, we're hearing, you know, just more and more feedback from people.

So, so I'm really optimistic about, about it and I think that You know, the model that we've got of the monthly cadence of print, the high quality of the newsprint, the, the direct mail piece, and the mix of coverage that we've got.

the fact that, you know, the fact that Beth McKibbon, who was editor of Eater Atlanta for many years left a national, you know, dig one of the top national media companies, to come work for us.

It was a huge, you know, it was a, a lot of wind in our, in our sail.

Yeah.

it's interesting how like print is, it is still not just valuable, but like, you know, a a, a real like margin driver for you.

I mean it, you know, look, the Atlanta Journal constitution just stopped printing, right?

Like,

Yeah.

Well, they announced they're gonna stop at the end of the year.

Yeah.

But

the, but the, I think that they'll come back with some kind of weekly or, or biweekly product.

but the, but the dynamics, I mean the economics for what they were doing, I mean, I interviewed Andrew for a piece I wrote after

they made the announcement

and Andrew Morrison?

Yeah,

Executive

yeah.

Who's the president of the A JC and

he and a friend.

And, and he, you know, he gave the example of, election night last year they had 400 something thousand, you know, visitors to their website.

And the next morning, the morning paper, which went to bed at like three o'clock.

Election day, afternoon had 40,000 copies.

So, you know, and you think about the, the, just the geography of Atlanta, how spread out it is and getting those papers to people and, you know, in the morning, you know, it's not

that the, the example that I gave of, you know, me growing up with three morning newspapers at the end of the driveway, it just doesn't, it just doesn't make any sense anymore.

So.

Yeah, the infrastructure is not there.

I mean, it's, it's

you know, I

The distribution of,

Analogy, but like we, we can't just bring back manufacturing all of a sudden because like that, that infrastructure is gone.

Like, and we, the same is happening with print.

And I think, you know, I hear all the time from people running, you know, local and, and regional, publications about, you know, it does

get a lot of attention now, but the fact is like the market has shrunk and so the costs have gone, have, have really gone up for printing.

and that hurts.

distribution and getting people to, to read it.

I mean, it's, it's, you know, you, you talk a lot about the, these niche magazines, you know, that, that, you know, that have come back to print.

I mean, the Onion coming back to print, but it's, you know, it's like, it's like vinyl.

I mean, if you walk in my place, like the first thing you see is my turntable and, and whatever vinyl I want you to see that day.

To, to signal to you that I have vinyl, but, but I'm not walking in after a busy day or waking up, you know, to get my news from vinyl every day.

It's just, it doesn't, it just doesn't work.

So, so I think of it, think of it kinda like that, but that's why I like our, our cadence.

That's why I like our, our cadence, our distribution, and the saturation piece.

But, you know, we've only launched one new neighborhood in print in five years.

we did acquire the Georgia Voice, so there could be, there could be more opportunities to.

You know, to bring, you know, people that are in nearby markets under our, you know, into our, our platform or whatever, whatever we wanna call it, because, you know, we've got the operation in place, we know what to do.

you know, we've got the printing relationships.

I mean, one of the hardest parts about printing is, is turning on the printing press.

Like that's the biggest expense is getting that time.

'cause there are fewer and fewer.

You know, printers around.

So, so that's, these are all things that we're doing that I think we, you know, we have an opportunity to, to grow in that way, but we'll have to, we just have to be, deliberate about it.

Yeah.

so where do you sit with the model as it is, right?

It seems like you, the expansion you see is adding other communities or maybe non expand, I dunno, it's up to you.

You can go deeper, you can add different like services, for the existing communities.

But do you, do you see like having, it seems like you're getting like a playbook down that like is, and you don't want to sort of replicate in, in Charlotte and all these other different cities.

So is is the opportunity to keep.

Use the digital to understand where the opportunities are and just run the playbook in in other counties.

Yeah, I think so.

I mean, other count, other, you know, counties or cities, but also, you know, other verticals.

So I think there's still verticals that we can explore.

and we start those as newsletters, right?

We have, you know, was it started as an intern project, but we have a monthly newsletter about books.

There's no other newsletter in Atlanta, you know, for, for authors or for the literary scene.

So that gives us.

You know, the ability, we know how to launch newsletters locally.

and I think that, you know, those are ways that we can test certain products.

We've done a pop-up sports newsletter, over the summer, which if we, you know, which, which, you know, turned out to be, to be great, but it's not, you know, we don't have the staffing to do that on a regular basis.

But, you know, if we see

opportunities like that, I think that we can grow, you know, both geographically and vertically into other areas.

Right.

Yeah.

what's the kind of ceiling, do you think, for, for a model like this?

that's a good question.

Because I guess I just, I end up like wondering.

Look, I mean the, the chains have, have, have not exactly been great stewards.

I don't think of the, of, the local news ecosystem, and I think everyone is, is tackling it in.

In a different way, you know?

and I think the question for a lot of these models is, you know how, you know, you, you have pockets of success out there, right?

and I just wonder whether there is like the opportunity for, a larger sort of local news play.

There's a sticker on my lap, on a post-it note on my monitor that says meaningful, not massive.

and I think having, you know, worked at different startups along the way, like I, I have a. And this is also being a first time business owner.

Like I just think every day the world, the world's gonna end.

And so, you know, I'm still in the phase five years later where the first thing I do every morning is check the bank.

Oh, good.

I'm glad.

I'm glad I'm not

You're not the only one.

So, so I, I don't.

just, it is to a fault.

And, and, and this maybe too much information, but I talk about this with my therapist.

Like I, I tend to downplay where, you know, successes and so I,

I just worry a a lot.

But I think that, you know, I think that we can build, you know, I look at, you know, people like, what, it's not, it's not an exact analogy, but like that, you know, I would like to be the puck of it, of Atlanta.

Of the region.

right.

But that, you know, but instead of it being verticals like they have, it would be, it would be geographies and then, you know, build a, a, a great platform.

And, but you know, we're still a small business.

It's hard for me to find, you know, it's hard for, we can't afford, you know, things like a COO we can't afford, you know, CROs.

So there's a lot of small business stuff that.

That I think has really torpedoed a lot of small, independent publishers, and news operations.

I've seen that happen here with some popups or startups that have, you know, that just haven't been able the weight of doing, of doing business.

So if I can get that part right and then we can offer, you know, our, our to, you know, some, some great independent journalists.

There could be an interesting model there.

I, I had lunch yesterday with a, a corporate media, I won't, I won't say there, I won't expose who it was, but someone that was running a, a

division of a, of a big corporate media and, and like they, we were talking about, you know, dif different tech tools that we're using or whatnot.

And, and you know, I was telling about some of them and he's like, oh, we can never get that through.

I could never get that through corporate or I could never get,

you know, we'd have to have a, we'd have to have 10 cross-functional meetings.

We don't have that.

I mean, if we decide to launch a sports newsletter, we just do it.

I, you know, I, you know, I, I probably do too much of, of, that, which is a challenge.

Like, but the, you know, the, the, the, our ability to test and try things is, is good.

And I'm, you know, I also have the benefit of, you know, we don't have investors.

we're almost, you know, it's almost paid off so I can start reinvesting even more, into it.

So it gives me a lot of, of flexibility, but I say all that and we're still small.

You know, if you guys were talking about this on, on your podcast, you would, you know, AB who I've grown to, like, would, would, I mean, he wouldn't even, you know, give us a time of day.

So I, I had someone.

You know, that came to me.

It's been a couple years, they might think differently, or I might think differently now, but they were like, I wanna invest in your company.

And I just started laughing and I was like, you know, you know, you need to look at the, look at the, at the, at the numbers first.

But, but it's, it's improving.

We're having a great year.

Like it's gonna be, um,

the better, it's a much better story.

I guess like from my point of it's like from what you have experienced the last, I guess, four plus years, does, does it make

you more optimistic or less optimistic about, you know, the, the doom and gloom aspect of local news, which apparently I traffic in,

Oh way.

I'm way more optimistic

about it.

So get just run through the optimism, not just in your, your business, but why you think.

You know, in your experience for it, that this is a solvable, quote unquote problem.

Now you have a lot of advantages 'cause you're, you're operating in, in, in rich suburbs of a rich, metropolitan area.

but I'm not gonna like, look, there's a lot of issues to solve it.

I'm like, look, if we can, we can make local news work in some like rich areas.

We'll get to some little bit less

yeah.

Well, like what John's doing at Community Impact in Texas,

like they're doing it across all of Texas.

Very similar model, John.

Yeah.

Very similar model, but you know, at, at much bigger scale than, you know, than we are.

you know, obviously there's the, there's the, you know, the, um, out, you know, the, the stuff that Ken Doctor is

Yep.

Santa

Cruz.

look out Santa Cruz and now look out Eugene.

So I think that the, the models are, are popping up.

I think it just, it has to be, and there's a Lot of nonprofits here in Atlanta and some of them are doing okay.

I think it's a really tough time for, for nonprofit journalism, especially with all this stuff going on with, with public broadcasting.

'cause now you've got, you know, you've got so many people that are asking for, for reader revenue.

So I think that that's making it, very hard for, for nonprofits.

So, but, but I think you just have to sort of keep a smaller, I mean, we're, we're, we're, that meaningful not massive thing just sticks with me because we're just trying to, we're

not trying to, to be too big and, and by taking small steps and not looking at, like any sort of exit or any sort of acquisition like.

Just doing what's in front of us.

It's allowing us to be, to be successful.

Well, that's a good mantra.

I think now, more than ever for, for most of media, right?

because.

Obviously, you know, the scale era, so to so to speak is, is clearly behind us.

And, you know, a lot of, there's a lot of really great media businesses that are being built or still are to be built.

That I think can be very meaningful, but likely not

Yeah, we're also not.

Chasing, we're also not chasing shiny objects, right?

So we don't do video right now, we

you haven't pivoted to

podcasts.

No.

We, we don't, we don't even have a TikTok.

but we're growing our, you know, we're using, we're, we're, we're using the, the basics, but we're not chasing things that don't have direct revenue tied.

Although I still think we talked about this before.

I, I, I see some like local.

Instagram.

I don't go near TikTok, but I see some like Instagram accounts, like in like Miami and like they're locally based.

They have massive amounts of engagement.

usually they're around food or different like quote unquote cultural parts of, of, of Miami.

But

you don't see any advertise.

I mean, you don't see brand, you know what we would call brand advertisers here.

Like if you, you know, you don't see the, you know, the Sotheby's, Christie's real estate folks that are advertising with us.

so I still, I still think there's, there's room for both.

I mean, we've got those, we've got a

handful of

know.

I mean, you could do like real estate porn in like, you know, the Atlanta like exurbs and like have it supported by Sotheby's real estate.

Like, it's

Well, I mean, our real estate ads are some of our best content.

I mean,

if you flip through our, if you flip through our papers, the, the, you know, the, the only thing it's acceptable in this country to be voyeuristic about is, is real estate.

So, you know, I'm not likely to ask you what you make, but it's not awkward for me to ask you what you paid for your,

for your house.

And, and so people lo I mean our, our pages are filled with great real estate ads.

And people tell me all the time, oh, you're the real estate paper

and I

I mean, it's like FT weekend where like the, how to spend it.

Like, I mean, I'm not in the market for like, you know, this place in I'll garve, but I'm absolutely like, you know, checking out what I can get for like, you know,

Oh yeah, we have a

30 million euros.

Yeah.

We just launched a weekly feature, which is a guess how much this house costs

in a, in our newsletter.

And it's a picture of a house with a few descriptors.

And then three

prices and, and and people, people love it.

It's been huge engagement so far.

So final thing is, for, for me, because I want to do more like on local, who, who are some, who are some people that you look to and you're saying, yeah, they're doing, they're doing some interesting stuff in these other markets.

Yeah.

Well, the, the, I, I mean, first of all, the idea I should give even more credit was, was Ted and Charlotte, so before.

Before he was bought

Ted Williams.

Ted was bought by Axios.

I looked, I was following the Charlotte

like Ted.

Yeah.

I don't know if I've ever talked to him directly, but if Ted's

listening,

we should talk.

'cause I like, I like his energy in that public.

That's an interesting publication.

You wanna explain it?

the Charlotte agenda.

Tiny money.

Tiny Money.

Yeah.

well, the Charlotte Agenda people don't know was the

precursor to Axios Local.

it was a local newsletter, Justin Charlotte, that, was the Morning Brew for Charlotte, basically, that he sold Axios and now he started Tiny Money, which is, I don't even really know how

to describe it other than it's just Ted's, you know, Ted's sort of personal newsletter with him curating interesting things around Charlotte.

Yeah, I think it's, it's interesting 'cause it's, it's it's business focused, right?

And, I don't know, I think there's something there that is beyond like his, his like interest.

But

But is it, is it the, is it the Eat Me?

Is it the Emily Sunburg for

maybe, maybe we're gonna have the feed me of Charlotte.

I don't know.

it's possible,

and so Ted would be someone that I, that I think you should definitely talk to John Garrett in Texas.

Yeah, I, I

Um, is another, is another person that's doing really good stuff.

and then obviously, you know, the, the lookout folks, you know, they're, they're doing awesome stuff and, the other per the other person to tap into, and we're, I'm a huge fans of news.

We're on the news pack platform, which for

us has been, has been, just very, very, you know, it's been a, a big win for us because I have no tech people on the team, so.

That was part of the cost I was able to cut at the very beginning is we use News Pack and, you know, it's, it's just been incredible support.

and so what, what, you know, Kinzie someone else, Kinzie Wilson is someone else to talk to because he's seeing every type of model across the, across the world, in local news.

And so that's someone else I would talk to.

Okay, great.

thanks a lot, Keith.

This was fun to catch up and, get deep into the model.

Yeah.

Thanks for inviting me and thanks for doing what you do to, keep us informed and entertained.

Okay, well, I hope to like, ease up on the doom and gloom.

I'm not, I'm not really that gloomy of a person.