EP 370 - Parties beat networking events. The best people for your business probably won’t have been to university. Controlled aggression is a good thing.  You want opinions, our guest this week Adam Pope has got 'em. Unlike most people peddling BS business advice on LinkedIn, he has the business and life experience to back them up. 

From being homeless (and trying to finish school whilst living in a tent) to being the CEO of Spencer Churchill, a law firm that’s looking to be the opposite of what you’d expect, Adam is a man who lives life on his own terms and is creating a company with that mindset.

We talk to Adam about radically re-inventing cultural expectations around how a law firm, or any business, should behave.  He also talks about his belief that “suffering sharpens the tools”.

Which is probably why he entered his first Ironman Triathlon before he actually knew how to swim.

*For Apple Podcast chapters, access them from the menu in the bottom right corner of your player*

Spotify Video Chapters:

00:00 BWB with Adam Pope

02:43 Illegal Raves and Family Fallout

04:10 Surviving Homelessness: Life in a Tent

07:59 From Recruitment to Financial Services

11:22 Founding Spencer Churchill

15:02 Reinventing Legal Culture

27:18 The Value of Experience Over Education

36:16 Adam's Triathlon and Ironman Journey

36:32 Life Changes and Sobriety

39:50 Work Culture and High Performance

41:49 Four-Day Work Week Innovation

45:46 Business Philosophy and Personal Goals

48:29 Political Views and Business Environment

59:34 Quickfire - Get To Know Adam

01:05:14 Wrap Up

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When your parents made you homeless, I assume it was tough love.

Did it work?

At the time I resented them for it.

But as I got older, it's the best thing that ever happened because I was literally living on park benches.

I was literally scavenging for food.

I went to college one morning and my tutor pulled me to one side and he said, I've heard that you're living in a tent.

And I was like, no, don't be silly.

And funnily enough, that day I went back to the tent and the tent had been stolen.

So I didn't do well at school.

I've got numerous criminal records for various things.

Nothing majors, not a drug lord or anything like that.

And then I decided that I wanted to go to work.

All the way forward.

Now you are senior partner or chief executive.

Yeah.

Are you a lawyer?

No, I'm a business person.

Hi and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.

We're here to help the founders, entrepreneurs, business owners, anyone who wrestles with the job of being in charge.

And if you like what we do here, please rate and review us, Spotify and Apple and come say hi on YouTube if you fancy watching us in action.

Links are in the episode description or just search for wblondon.

A fear of risk holds you back.

You need to break things.

You are building to find a better way.

The best people for your business probably won't have been to university.

Adam Pope is a man with strong opinions and a man who acts on his opinions unlike most bullshit self styled gurus and influencers on LinkedIn.

From being homeless to the CEO of Spencer Churchill, a law firm that's looking to be the opposite of what you expect.

Adam is a man who has lived life on his own terms and is creating a firm with that mindset.

We talked to Adam about radically reinventing cultural expectations about how a law firm should behave.

Things like organizing parties, not networking events.

Being approachable, not aloof.

And why a four day done right will outperform a five day one every time.

Adam also entered his first Ironman triathlon before he even knew how to swim.

Let that sink in.

Which seems both impressive and bonkers at the same time.

There was a lot to learn and lots of great stories.

Buckle up.

Check it out.

Take notes.

I am Andy Ourien.

Today we are joined by Adam Pope.

At 43, Adam is the founder and CEO of Spencer Churchill, which has redefined what it is to be a law firm.

His journey from the streets of Bolton to the helm of a 5 million turnover boutique law firm.

It's nothing short of remarkable.

And I am sure we'll hear a little more about it.

Adam, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Andy, great to be here.

Pleasure.

Thank you for coming.

So, let's start at the beginning.

Some point in your early in your life, what, you became homeless and then somehow you've got all the way there to a law firm.

Those seem very opposite ends of the spectrum.

Take, take, take us through that roughly crazy ride.

So we were just speaking then about the illegal raves and actually that was the final thing, the final straw for my parents.

So there has been loads and loads of issues, strain off the tracks and so on.

And I'll just tell you quickly the story, what happened there.

So I'd been doing party nights at various nightclubs and I had this idea to organize a legal rave at a farm my dad owned with three of the guys.

It was lay empty whilst they were redeveloping it.

So I had this idea to put this rave on.

Cut a long story short, the day before the raid was meant to happen, I'd sold a thousand tickets up to this point.

Everything was arranged, stereo system, DJs, everything.

And on the way home, I was working in a call centre whilst I was at college and got a call from my mum.

My mum said, adam, have you heard anything about this illegal rave at Tomkips Farm?

And I was like, how old are you?

20, right?

I was like, yeah, what do you know about it?

It's my rave.

They're like, what do you mean it's your rave?

You better get home.

When I got home, all my bags were packed.

This is the second or third time that bags were packed and they'd literally just had enough.

I'd pushed them to the the edge of their tether.

They just literally had enough.

So that was it.

And then not long after that, I thought, well, my friend's parents would put me up, they'd had enough of me.

So I moved from one set of friends to another.

One by one, they just sort of said, look, we can't have you living with us.

So I just found myself then being properly homeless.

So how the tent thing came along.

One of the times that my mum and dad wasn't in, I went home, stole my dad's tent.

And not far from where we lived, there was like a woods next to a scout center.

So I was living in this tent whilst I was at college.

Wow.

I mean, you've illustrated the point that I only know a little, but my experience in life is the people who come homeless are often the nice people I don't mean that in a bad way.

I mean if you refuse, like, like if you're pet.

If you're living somewhere because this happened to someone.

I know, but.

And you can't pay the rent if you're just a bastard about it and you just say, you, I'm staying here.

The.

The system eventually kicks in and a judge won't make someone homeless, they'll eventually pay it.

But if you're a nice person, you go, well, I can't pay the rent, I better go.

Then you.

Exactly what happens to you?

You go to one person's sofa and the next, and then.

And you run out of sofas and then suddenly you're like, yeah, that's it exactly.

And were your parents.

Because it sounds quite.

I mean, holding an illegal rave, probably not the top of everyone's list.

But is that.

Is it the drug side of it?

Is that.

Is it.

Because it's that there must have been something to sort of tip that a little more into the balance, you know, holding a party is a party.

To be honest, Andy, it was like there was so many other things, some of which I can't really talk.

It was like that wasn't the worst of the issues.

There was a shit ton of other things that had been going on for years.

The straw that grow the cameras back.

Exactly, yeah, that was it.

So I was still trying to persevere finishing college, because I was literally a few months away, so I was trying to do my assignments in this tent.

Anyway, I went to college one morning and my tutor pulled me to one side and he said, I've heard that you're living in a tent.

And I was like, no, don't be silly.

And funnily enough, that day I went back to the tent and the tent had been stolen, so all of my few belongings that I had had gone with it, my coursework being the main thing.

So it just meant that I didn't even finish college.

So I didn't do well at school, didn't finish college.

And then I decided that I wanted to go to work.

But, you know, my sort of background is I was like a one man riot, basically a one man gang.

I didn't need anybody to encourage me to.

To make bad choices and do silly things.

So, wow, what a story.

It's also of the time, isn't it?

You're not far off my age.

You didn't need WI Fi and a laptop back there.

You didn't have it when you were 16.

That's it.

Okay, within that you'd sort of said, right, I'm gonna carry on.

Let me try and understand your character a little bit.

Okay, so you, you're causing trouble.

You know, you don't seem like a nasty person here.

You just, you just get bored or.

Yeah, I think I just.

I've always been a risk taker.

I've always done what I wanted to do.

I've always lived life on my terms.

So, for example, I ran off to Paris and lived in Paris for a little while.

I've done just loads of crazy things.

I've got numerous criminal records for various things.

Nothing majors, not a drug lord or anything like that, but things that have sort of strayed over.

You're not afraid of risk, are you?

Someone, if you would, you know, jump off a building, climb down a mountain, these things don't bother you?

No, not at all.

If, if you said that red symbol there set off a nuclear weapon, I'd be like, but.

Yeah, but does it though?

Does it really?

Let's try it.

I'm just that sort of character.

I've always.

I mean, within any population, you need all types of character types, you know, so evolutionary.

It's not, it's not crazy.

And when you study those people who take high risks, they.

They feel fear, but not at the level others do.

You know, they are just the opposite of the anxious bunch.

That's.

It was sort of like.

And you can imagine in any sort of situation, it's probably good that a few try and go and do something crazy and a few stay safe and don't do anything, you know?

Yeah, well, how fascinating.

Okay, so you didn't feel.

Finished college.

So then how did you get to work or what did you do then?

So when I got back from running off to Paris, I went living with my friends who were students in Manchester.

They put me up for a little while, which gave me a little bit of a base.

And I got my first job in recruitment and then I just sort of like worked my way up, if you like.

It was a case of after a few months I was able to save up and get an apartment in Manchester and then just sort of rebuild from there.

But that wasn't really a straight line.

It wasn't sort of like once hitting Manchester again and then led to, to this point, I've had a number of ups and downs along the way.

Okay, so.

And then let's just fast all the way forward.

So that.

All the way forward now is what you are.

Senior partner, chief executive of a law firm.

Are You a lawyer?

No.

Okay.

And a business person.

You're the business person.

At some point, you thought, I could do something different here.

Yeah.

So my first sort of, like, career was recruitment.

I got fired from every job I've ever had simply because of.

I was always very good in the role.

And then I use that to my advantage to take the piss, basically.

So work started at 8, I'd rock up at half 10, but because I was the top biller, I just expect that would be okay.

You're always trying to push where the line is, like, what can I get away with wearing?

What can I.

That's exactly.

I was just going to say what I could.

I wanted to wear what I want, do what I want.

And because I was a top biller, I sort of used that as the.

To my advantage.

But there's always so long that the managers would let it get.

Let you get away with that.

And then what happened was I got fired from my last recruitment job.

I decided I needed a change of scenery because there was lots of other chaos outside in my personal life.

So I got a job offer with a big recruiter to move to Switzerland.

Going back to the legal rave bit.

I hadn't spoken to my dad for four years, not a single word at that point.

Wow, that's heavy.

So he got wind of me moving to Switzerland and then he was a wealth manager and he came to see me.

He was like, kissed and made up.

Hey, why don't you come and help me while you wait to go to Switzerland?

I was like, right, okay, then.

And then during the first few months.

He'S a financial advisor then.

Yeah, yeah.

The financial crisis hit, so it would have been.

If I'd have gone to Switzerland, I would have been quickly coming back because that was the department I would have worked in.

Anyway, he's one of them where he was happy to give me the opportunity, but not a silver spoon, not by any means.

Anything that we've ever had, we've had to work for.

So he was like, I've got two brothers and my two brothers have worked for him as well.

He was like, look, lads, if you want to earn more money, need to get qualified and do your own clients.

And it was his way of doing tough love.

So I then went on to my pension and investment exams, built my own client base and so on.

And then after seven or eight years of working with him, it was a bit like that.

I'm, you know, I'm fed up with work, with working with you.

I need to do my own Thing I've always known I would run my own business one day spotted an opportunity to do financial negligence claims.

And then I just said to him one day look, I'm going to do this.

You either back me or you don't.

And it's coincided with him considering semi retirement.

And my other brother, like I mentioned one went to London to do his masters at Cash business school and then the other one, he repurposed the financial advisors and then off we went.

So he supported us.

And then the goal was to take that business to be the number one in what we did, which I did.

We're still the number one in that market even today.

Financial service negligence claims.

Financial service negligence claims, yeah.

And then four or five years ago decided that I wanted to do something else as well.

So I looked at being a full service law firm and my sort of journey into law or we are corporate commercial lawyers.

That's our specialist area.

Was I wrote a list of what my view of traditional law firms is and was and decided to do set up Spencer Churchill.

So the exact opposite in every single way.

I love it.

I have lots of questions.

I mean maybe first question is when your parents made you homeless.

I assume that was tough love.

Then they were just like did it, did it work?

Did it, was it at the time.

At the time I resented them for it.

You know when you're on this, I was literally living on park benches.

I was literally scavenging not far from home, not far from home.

And that's crazy, that must have been so difficult for them.

I assume your parents love you.

You know what I mean that that's agony for them too.

And I resented them.

But it's now as I got older it's the best thing that ever happened because it taught me to stand on my own two feet.

Nothing that they said I did up to that point worked.

I was on this self destructive trail.

I was hell bent on doing whatever I wanted to do.

Okay, tell us, so when you made the list of the law firm, what are the kind of, the main things that you thought a law firm was and shouldn't be if there were sort of big differences?

You know, I think my brand has been down to earth and relatable.

So the way that I dress now, the way that address in front of clients.

So I've claused multi million pound transactions dressed as I am for example.

Okay.

So no dress code.

Wear what you want, wherever you want, you want.

It's not just the case of dress code, it's the downswear of relatability as well.

So I know a lot of high net worth successful individuals that come from council estates, middle of the road backgrounds.

So when I was putting my propositions together, I sense checked what their experience was and they all said the same thing.

They felt like they couldn't relate to the lawyers we're dealing with because they weren't from the same backgrounds.

They didn't feel understood.

So when I recruit, for example, that's one of the things that I look for when I bring people on in terms of character traits that down to earth relatability, because that's one aspect of my brand.

So when did you start the law firm?

2018.

2018.

Amazing.

And what's the, the ambition for it is, you know, to keep going and growing and.

Yeah, keep growing and growing.

Yeah.

I want to be a top 100 law firm within the next five years.

Amazing.

You're very ambitious and actually quite good at achieving things.

Yeah.

Were you quite good at school when you focus?

No, no, I'm.

No subjects.

I don't know if it's a God given talent, I don't know if it's because I've been nurtured that way, but business is just my talent.

Well, because it's risk taking.

Yeah.

What is business?

I mean we're having a conversation here about.

Because my old man's still in the business and he's like the regulators and the compliance and then you put someone in charge and everyone's worrying and everyone keeps worrying and then we can't say anything or do anything and he was sort of banging desk a bit.

He's a good man.

But just to me, just to make his point, like you have to take risk.

That is what we're in.

We're here to give advice.

You are a professional, you have insurance.

You could lose everything but have some freaking balls because otherwise it's.

Yeah, it's all regulatory.

No one can say anything.

It's all nonsense, you know.

You know, I like Andy about it.

I see it as a game.

So like I like the, the solving issues, solving problems, how to move to that next level.

I just see it as one big game.

And it's like once I reach a certain stage or achieve a certain goal, it's like a bit like you do a video game, move on to the next game.

So I'm just doing a thing at the moment where I'm literally trying to break my law firm.

And what I mean by that is we're looking at every system, process, control, the way that we engage with clients Are T's and C's, just literally, you name it.

So we're in the process of doing all that because it's a bit like a massive software update.

You're almost acting as the customer.

Are you the client?

And you're just saying, well, I don't want to do that.

You know, this is not right or exactly.

Stress testing.

Stress testing.

Hacking it.

I call it hacking it.

Do you have a close.

Like, do you have a left hand, right hand, man, woman?

Yeah, I've got an amazing team behind me.

I'm just one man.

I can't do it all on my own, you know.

And one of the things that he was asking before about what makes us different to other law firms, I kid you not, our team are, like, on the same mission as I am.

You know, we're not a big team, but we're a mighty one.

We can achieve things teams twice our size will struggle to do.

And that's taken a long time to get to that point.

You know, I've had to kiss a few frogs.

I appreciate everybody that's worked with us over the past eight or nine years.

They've all helped put a brick in the wall.

Although some might have run to the end of the usefulness, if you like.

But the team that we have now is an amazing team.

Like, they're all on the same mission as me.

And that's a massive contributing factor to this success we've had today and the belief that I have that we can achieve these big goals.

One of the irritating things when you try and do anything different is every firm's website is like, we're not like other lawyers.

They are.

We listen to our clients.

I mean, you can see from the shoulder pads on the website and the whole sort of la dee da, you know.

Anyway, any generalization is nonsense.

But all of these websites saying we're different, it's true, you know?

Yeah, I.

I couldn't agree more because two things there, my friends laugh even now, even though I'm, you know, years into the game running the firm because I spent so much time on the wrong side of the law, they think it's ironic that I know run a law firm.

And the other.

Your parents must think this is.

Yeah.

Must be so proud of you.

Now they're like, oh, my God, you know.

Yeah.

And the other thing is, I typically don't like lawyers either.

No.

Anyway, well, good for you.

And I mean to explain to me, you're saying corporate commercial law.

So people don't understand that commercial laws, contractual law, it's corporate laws, sort of deals, raising money, fundraising, but.

So that's your focus?

That's our focus, yeah.

Is there a regionality to that or is there a sector to that or is there a flavor to it at all?

It's just generally northwest.

We've done deals in.

I did a 34 million pound transaction in fiber.

Fiber optic installation, for example.

Yeah, okay.

So, you know, we're sort of what, six, seven years in the game.

There's firms that I know that are 25, 30 years old that haven't done transactions like that.

And this goes back to what I said before.

It isn't just the fact that we're down to earth relatable.

There's lots of other things that went into winning that job, but it definitely helps, you know, just some.

A few other examples of how we demonstrate that were different.

So.

And this goes back to the party nights, actually.

So in March this year, we hosted the pop star Neo.

I don't know if you've ever heard of him.

Rings a bell.

Yeah, he's a big, big American pop star.

And we hosted him, his after party for his final concert in Manchester.

And the idea behind that was to create experiences for the types of people we want to work with.

Because I don't know about you, but I fucking hate going to networking events.

Oh, my God.

They're sort of like the types of people that generally go there are just not who I would choose to spend my time with.

So I make a point of not going, but I do see value in making connections.

It's like all the good deals always happen at the bar, don't they?

Or, you know, midnight or whatever.

So we created this intimate experience with this guy Neil.

It went down really well.

We got a lot of high profile people there.

It was brilliant.

So they planned to do other events like that.

But search him up, you'll see how big of a guy he is.

And, you know, I've got a thing.

It's like, what other law firm would do that?

They just.

They just wouldn't.

Well, they wouldn't.

And they go for something terribly straight, Lace.

I mean, the other misconception I feel with law is that people, people often feel they want a lawyer who's like a rock violet.

They.

I want to attack like a tiger.

And you get these lawyers who attack and it's like.

And they point out all the mistakes of the other lawyer.

And actually that's not what you want at all.

You want a collaborative lawyer.

You know, if I gave a simple example, it's like things get misspelled in contract.

Sometimes people misspell a name, for instance, and you can CC everyone and go, I can't believe you can't even spell the guy's name.

Or you could be a professional and fix the spelling and send it back because it doesn't matter and things will happen.

Do you know.

And I think though a lot of the time, certainly if it's in litigation or certain areas like family, you know, divorce law and stuff like this that they want someone to attack and it's a sort of missing.

That feels good, you know, like my.

And it's quite an American style of law too.

Very confrontationary.

Don't.

That's British style.

I just don't think that.

That and your openness relatedness, you know, just sort of.

You will get on with the entrepreneurs, I'm sure, actually understand what's important to them and then try and do the deal at a legal level.

Do you know what I mean?

Have you read the book how to Win Friends and Influence People?

I've.

It's very famous book.

I'm a terrible reader.

So.

No, but the principles of it.

I read that when I was 16 years old.

I've always been into personal development and it's the.

The principles have stuck with me ever since.

That said, I think there's a place for controlled aggression.

So like for example, when I was saying to before was the illegal raid, the.

The worst thing that's ever happened.

I'll give you.

As we're going through, more stores will come out.

So for example, not sure you can see with the headphones, but I've got stabbed there.

Oh yeah, there's a.

Yeah, I can.

See it in there.

Oh, wow.

So.

So what I'm saying is like there's a.

There's a place for controlled aggression and we're a great team in terms of.

When you've got to fight for your clients.

I think that's what you're saying.

Absolutely.

With the tax authority in my role, probably more the.

But my first option is to be collaborative.

Yeah.

Hence the reason why I reference how to win friends influence bills, I think.

Is that with the mate.

I don't know what the messages are.

We watch.

We would much prefer to kind of like be collaborative.

It generally gets a deal done quicker, it's easier.

But if you've got it, if you've got anchors on the other side, then you can say, okay, fine.

Exactly.

You know, let's play that ball.

You know, I look after a few professional athletes, a few boxes and the reason that they like to work with me is because I have that sort of like streets type mentality, experience and approach, but whilst also being.

Well, it gives you strategies that a lawyer wouldn't necessarily apply.

Exactly.

Say, I'll tell you what, don't do that, let's do that.

You know, Exactly.

I think, because I think where, where we've achieved success and like I said, I wouldn't be able to have done it without the team that we have and the team before is because I'm able to sort of straddle that line between being street and intelligent and commercial, where.

What do the law society think of you?

And you can't control the firm because you can't have a firm control.

But.

Oh, you and abs.

Yeah, we're in abs.

Yeah, you're an abs.

An alternative business structure for those who don't understand it.

And up until very recently, the law society didn't allow a law firm to have anyone who wasn't a lawyer running it.

Now you can have lawyers.

Well, until they can't be controlled by lawyers.

Isn't that the rule?

I don't know my stuff very well.

Yes.

So I'm 90% shareholder and the head solicitor, Nick, is a great guy.

He's had like 40 years experience as a, as a lawyer.

He owns 10.

Okay, okay.

So that's the ownership structure.

Okay, interesting.

But I mean, thank God they allow non lawyers to join law firms.

I mean, bless them.

It's like asking scientists to run a company, you know, you're doing.

They're not professors, lawyers, but there is a discipline of it that is like that.

They're perfectionists.

Grammar Nazis.

You know, it's.

And rightly so, you know.

Well, well, exactly.

There's 10,000 law firms regulated by the SRA.

There's literally a handful founded or run by business people.

And again, obviously I sell that fact to my clients because lawyers are great at giving legal advice, but they often work in silos.

Whereas what we do, we take a multidisciplinary approach, like it seems you do.

There's not enough firms taking that multidisciplinary approach.

What you'll get is an employment lawyer who does his employment bit.

He won't then pass that client on to his commercial counterpart.

It requires a lot of internal communication.

It's not easy to do, is it, will a client pay for it?

You know, that's the interesting problems you run into because for everyone to consider the problem from eight different angles is expensive but helpful.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah.

So you run into Those sorts of issues and stuff.

What do you feel?

I mean we'll move on from law, but what do you feel to conclude on the sort of the big changes, the AI, how technology is coming in?

I love it.

Yeah, yeah, I love it.

Yeah, I love it.

Make it faster.

Yeah, I mean I'm, I'm embracing it.

As I mentioned before, I'm trying to break our firms literally doing a massive software update.

One of the things is embracing so developing two new pieces of tech internally.

One will be far on internal processes, the other one will be more of a customer facing platform.

But in terms of AI, I'm embracing it.

I'm really looking forward to it and looking to adopt it where I can.

We run a very lean and agile operation.

We pass those costs down to our clients.

We're not, not cheap by any means.

We're still premium in terms of the service and what we charge.

But I'm all about margin.

You've got to know the answer.

I was just sent it today by Ross, one of our employment lawyers.

Top man, big up Ross.

But you had an argument with AI.

He asked it that.

Well, someone else asked it the question and it said it was all about your two year rights of employment.

And it, it just gave a wrong answer but very technically backed up in law.

And it just admit.

And he was like no, I'm sorry, that's wrong.

And then it said no, I'm sorry, you're wrong.

And then he was like, like proper, like got on like you know, wrote these sentences referencing exactly why they're completely wrong.

And the AI was like.

And then changed this thing and apologized.

It was just hilarious to read, you know, but you have to challenge you basically.

You have to know what you're talking about because it will get things wrong.

So for me, I love the fact maybe I can just squeal out some crappy email, just give it to AI, writes me this beautiful thing and I'm like right, send that.

That looks much better.

That's it.

I think, I think currently and maybe for some while yet it should just be used as a tool.

I don't think it'll ever fully replace hands on legal advice.

Not ever, should you rely on it.

But I do think it can be used as a tool for sure.

Well, the advice, as you well know, is sometimes not the thing in front of you.

The advice might be picking up on the fact the person's going through a divorce and that's affecting their emotions tremendously.

Or there's some other thing that's, you know, they're just not getting AIs.

How much is AI going to understand if someone's daughter just died?

Them trying to run a business and having commercial aspects, I mean, those are sort of rather morbid examples.

But there's a subtlety, isn't there, in a room, you pick up on something in the body language and you're like, okay, I wouldn't.

I don't think this person wants that, you know.

So now Adam is this new person.

This is, you know, Adam 2.0 or something.

This is more like 9.10.

Yeah, 9.10.

When people say they've reinvented themselves.

Mine's been more like a reincarnation.

Reincarnation.

Yeah, yeah, it's a.

Is there a.

A next version or you think this is.

Yeah, I'm always evolving.

Yeah.

I would like to think I'm not the same person as was last year because that would mean I'm standing still.

I don't want to stand still.

I always want to incremental, but maybe not, you know, and, and you're a family man or.

Yeah, I've got three children.

I've got an 11 year old, a 7 year old and a 3 year old.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

Yeah, we're in similar boats for that.

Okay.

Yeah, that's.

I'm not playing games.

It's.

It's magic, but exhausting.

Yeah.

For those children, what would you recommend for them?

Would you recommend them to, you know, go to university, any of these things?

No, I'll be disappointed if they did.

Yeah.

Funnily enough, I had a chat with two of them in the car on Monday on the way to school and it was about if they chose to come and work with me and one of my businesses.

I've got a few other projects that I'm involved in.

Which one would it be?

So we went through.

I mean, truth be told is I would prefer them not to come and work with me in any of my business.

I want them to go off and do their own thing.

I think that's the nurturing development that I'm putting into them.

But in terms of university, I've got a general dim view of it.

I think for the large proportion of people that do go, it's probably a waste of time and money.

I think there are careers where it's needed and necessary.

But then when you saw the thing that came out earlier this week about the average student will end up in £70,000 worth of debt and all the people, the majority of people I know that went to Unique Have a career, a job or a business that is completely unrelated.

So I had this discussion with my brother.

He went the normal.

He did well.

It's, you know, really academic, super intelligent, did really well at school, really well at college, did well at uni.

Like I mentioned, he did his masters in investment funds management.

He runs a digital marketing agency, super successful.

And I have this debate with him often, Don, what the fuck's your degree or master's got anything to do with it?

And he argues the toss it does.

I learned this.

I put this went bollocks and I don't believe you at all.

He's learned, he's learned from me, he's learned from my dad.

I think that's a lot of where his success come from, that sort of being around us and experience and actually just giving it a go and learning.

Like I said, he's an intelligent person.

He learns from his mistakes quickly.

I just fail to see what not his degree and his master's got anything to do with the business that he runs now and the success that he has with it.

But, you know, maybe it's because he did it.

He seemed to think there's, there's value in it and there's lessons he's learned from it.

And he's.

I completely agree with you.

People do these degrees.

I mean, I did engineering and like everyone was doing nothing and I was having to go to college all the time.

I couldn't tell you anything about engineering.

Okay.

I mean, I somehow I got through it.

It was horrendous.

And I think you come out a university is about socialization.

It used to be about getting wasted.

Now it must be about getting a six pack and going to the gym.

I guess, you know, I mean, I was joking to someone the other day, which you might appreciate, I was like, we need to put on a party and on one side we need a bar, and on the other side we need a gym these days.

And then they can start in the gym, we'll start in the bar and then we can swap over.

I'll go to the gym, they go to the bar.

But I mean, God knows I, I mean they're not even get wasted.

I mean our generation, I don't know if you've seen the stats, but we come from like peak excess crazy drug party generation.

You know, if you're between about 40 and about 50, this is the late 90s, it was bananas, you know, and nowadays, because the reason it's in the press is because they're dropping dead all the time, you Know, people are carrying on, living this lifestyle and it'll catch up with you, man.

You know, you can't do it anymore.

But university is.

I mean, here we hire people who are 18 and we hire people at 21, and the ones who are 18, by the time they're 21, they're way further than the 21s.

The 21s turn up.

They are clueless, entitled.

Yeah, I mean, it takes us years to convert them.

I mean, I always use the example.

But you give them a piece of work when they're 21 and they, they come in, you give them, yeah, okay.

And then they're like.

And then you, two weeks later, you're like, what happened to that freaking thing?

I asked that guy to do that thing.

You ring him up and he's like, oh yeah, I saved it on the drive.

You're like, would you let me know?

I mean, maybe I'm only so.

They're so used to being, I don't know what it is, fed or something.

Anyone who drops out at 16 or 18, yeah, they've rolled their sleeves up.

They've got a job, they've been working in this environment.

My actual argument with the university, it sets you back.

Yeah, I don't, I don't even think, I don't even think it's three years.

I think you're five years behind psychologically where you need to be.

Totally.

I get the moving out and look, my circle of friends is a huge amount that come from university and that, you know, how do you make friends?

You got to spend time with someone, you know, and so you get to spend time with people because you have so much of it.

And I also believe that if you are truly gifted in a subject, like a real amazing mathematician at school, then maybe you should go to university, because that's what they're for.

They're there to further the art.

They're there for people who are excited about working with one of the greatest mathematicians in the country.

You know, if you're really into a subject, you'd be like, oh my God, John whoever's there, he's one of the most gifted, or she's one of the most gifted.

You know, people about.

And you know, there's a library and there's all this time and you can see it.

But it's a bit like what's going on at the moment with the, the anti rich movement and everything that's going on.

There's a sort of politics of envy.

So they said everyone should go to university because it's somehow a birthright.

I find it absurd, you know, in accounting and law that if you haven't gone to university you have to do extra exams.

But people, as you say, they go to university and they study anthropology, they don't know dick.

Yeah, yeah.

How is that fair to the 18 year olds?

You know that that has to change.

But that comes from back in the day, you know when it probably made more sense.

Yeah.

So I could relate to everything you've just said.

Like a lot of my best people.

So I've got qualified barristers in my firm.

Oh, you got barristers?

Qualified Boris barristers.

And that went on.

I sort of like steered them to go and do the legal practice course and then qualify solicitor.

So they've got dual qualification if you like.

But that's besides those sorts of people, my best people have come from hiring them at 16, 17, 18, guiding them through their career and qualifications that earning while the learning approach and exactly that.

They've got that hands on experience.

They get the qualifications anyway.

Yeah.

They might have to do a conversion.

Yeah.

It is a bit unfair to having to do the additional qualifications but I think I've tested it time and time again where my best people come from that route as opposed to now that we're getting a name for ourselves we can, you know, recruit people from the bigger so called bigger firms.

And they're never as good.

No, they're never as good because they're used to working in such a large, you know, environment rather than working across lots of different types of tasks if you like.

Well they don't, they're very, they don't like they want to be an expert.

Oh, I'm an expert in employment.

I don't do anything.

That's how we test our.

When we're interviewing someone.

Like what about if you did a bit of immigration?

No, that's wrong.

Yeah.

You know there's that mindset, isn't that the, the other weird thing is that apparently you know, you sort of finally become you by the 25.

Like the last big stage of mental development is working in an office or working in the working environment doesn't have to be an office learning that doesn't matter what age you are anymore.

I mean the other funny thing when they turn up as 21, they don't reply when you're a different age to them.

So if I was their age and I got say hey.

They go oh hello.

But then you come over as a 50 year old and you go like oh hey.

They just stare at you and you're like, it's so fascinating.

And you're like, you're supposed to talk to me, like, normally.

Like, reply, yeah, like, yeah.

And then they'll never ask you a question because you're older than them.

It's like, what?

I think that if you drop out when you're 18, you just go through that experience sooner, don't you know?

And I wonder whether the brain kind of settles, because that's the big.

You've built up and up and up at school and you're going to be special.

Then you go to university.

Oh, you must be important.

You're going to university.

You must be me.

And then you come out and life's just like, yeah.

They're not equipped to deal with life.

They live in a bubble.

Yeah.

When I.

When I look to recruit, and yet one of the things going back to my recruitment background, I'm good at utilizing my experiences.

And one of the things I look for is what jobs have they done in 15, 16, 17, 18.

I think my experiences.

That tells a lot about a character.

They've done a cafe job, bar job, worked in retail.

I've generally found that they have a better work ethic than those that have never worked, which went straight to unique, for sure, 100%.

I mean, your experiences are so.

Well, they're very visceral.

Being thrown out of home, I mean, it's quite.

I mean, it's part of you.

It's part of who you are, but it's quite breathtaking that they took that step, but it worked.

They threw you in the deep end.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, Molly Coddly doesn't work, you know, being straight with people, telling how it is.

I mean, I think they've recognized this now, haven't they?

Because there's this generation that we were so nice to, you know, you never say anything bad to.

And it's like, really, you know, isn't it a bit like the worst experiences are often your best experiences, you know?

Yeah.

When you're going through.

If you're going through something terrible right now, by the way, 9.

9 out of 10 of the times, if not more, you'll look back someday and think, this is a bit.

That was the best thing that ever happened to me, like your homelessness.

You know, I'm a big believer in putting yourself through suffering.

Put yourself through your suffering for that exact reason.

So, for example, I've done.

I don't know if you know much about triathlon.

I.

I was into a triathlon up until two years ago.

I've done Iron man and my very first Iron Man, I signed up to it.

I couldn't swim so I had to take swimming lessons.

What?

You're nuts.

Takes a while to learn to swim.

Yeah, exactly.

And I exercise for 10 years.

I was a party boy for 14 years with everything that that involved and I decided to give all of that up.

So I haven't drank for example for seven years.

Took up triathlon as a, as a means to focus on something else.

Sign up to Ironman.

So let me know what Ironman is.

It's a 2.4 mile swim followed by 112 mile bike followed by a marathon at the end.

So the pros can do it in eight hours.

Everybody else is sort of middle of the road between 13 and 15 hours and then you have up to 17 hours that's the cutoff anyway so cut a real long story short to get to the point.

Six weeks from the race I got knocked off my bike in a hit and run and broke my wrist in three places.

I saw nine wrist specialists.

I was determined to, I put a lot of training in there was like Adam, you can't do it, you'll never get through the swim.

I was like I will.

I've just got that resilience that, that dogged determination anyway, against all the odds, against all the advice my parents, you know we don't want you to do it, it's dangerous, blah blah blah like I'm doing it, you know, if I don't get through the swim they'll pull me out, whatever.

Anyway, I got for the swim by about 10 minutes my wrist was in Aggie because obviously when you're swimming it's two hours of that and then I spent six and a half hours on my bike and by that point I wanted to chop my wrist off.

I was that, you know, is it.

Flat, is it hilly, is it not?

Yeah, it was really hilly, yeah.

The course where it was in Bolton near where I live, it's notoriously a very hilly course.

Like something like.

I'm just trying to think now, 10,000ft of climbing basically.

So by that point I was ready for chopping my wrist off and I said once I've got through the bike, if I have to crawl over the crawl, the run I will do and I finished it.

So it's just a bit of an insight into my mentality.

Why, why did you give up you, you.

What was the moment you gave up the booze and the sort of the hard living?

My uncle passed away on our staff Christmas Day from a Heart attack.

And I felt like it was a sign.

He was at the party.

Yeah.

Your uncle.

Yeah.

Your father's brother or your mother's brother.

Wow.

Yeah, he just sort of like he'd been danced with my auntie, sat down and killed over, basically.

How old was he?

Early mid-50s.

Wow.

So I was like, if I don't change what I'm doing, I'm gonna end up in that place.

I was having a few issues myself.

Physically not feeling so good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I decided that was like a message from the universe.

He was a sacrifice, if you like.

And it was the case of, look, I need to start.

Well, alcohol.

Yeah.

One thing you can really.

I mean, it's poison.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

I'm sort of trying to stop drink.

I was curious on why that is, but.

God, that's mad with the.

I mean, the.

Ah, man's a pain in the ass.

But you wanna.

You wanna.

The suffering, it makes it.

It makes everything else easier.

I see it as like, sharpening the tools because life can be hard.

Running a business can be hard.

And I think all of us, no matter who we are, are guilty of becoming complacent.

And it's just my way of sharpening that mental resilience, if you like, for the.

Well, we all sit on comfy chairs in warm offices with our, you know, and it does make us soft.

Yeah.

That' likes stress.

Yeah.

You know, it clarifies the mind, doesn't it?

Sort of Wim hof world, like, you know, pushing it.

And then within.

Within what you're doing now, like, okay, what.

What else do you think is important then?

If.

If testing yourself is really important, do you ask other employees or you encourage them to do that stuff?

Do you?

Yeah.

Our culture is a big part of who we are and what we do and why we're different from a lot of firms.

What is your culture?

Can you.

I mean, you don't have to give me all the pillars, but yeah, obviously your service delivery is down to earth and everything.

The cultures want to have fun.

Fun.

High performance.

Very much focused on high performance.

Like, winning is a mindset.

Who wants to work with a firm of lawyers that don't have that winning mindset?

We're very competitive.

And like some examples that would like, do team rounders, for example, we really want to win anything.

Where there's any level of competition, every single member of the team wants to win.

And that's one of the things that I look for because it's our brand, it's what we stand for who wants to work with a team of lawyers that don't want to win or, you know, and it's like I said, they're on the same mission.

It's kind of like if you've got a Doris or a Dave who are not bothered, they don't sort of like when they finish work, they sort of go home, watch Coronation street, that sort of thing.

That's not going to get us where I want us to be.

What I do is I align each individual's goals, dreams, hopes, ambitions with the firms.

And by doing that, it means that we're all in it together because we've all got something that we're going to get out of it.

It's just aligning outcomes and having a shared purpose.

Have you got everyone?

Professional services, some of the most flexible working and all of this.

I mean, one thing we were thinking about recently, I'm like, no, if you want to integrate professional, we kind of all need to be available at the same time so we can discuss things.

But what do you do?

Do you make everyone come into the office or.

Well, long before it was cool.

Oh, you only do a four day week?

So innovation is very like a component, but long hours.

We do 10 hour days, so 8 till 6.

Monday to Thursday.

Monday to Thursday.

Really?

Okay.

Because we do eight to six and we're doing.

My old man comes from a different world.

And also you could never find good staff where he started in Slough and stuff.

You know, that's mad.

And you find the output people are more efficient, they're more focused.

So you have a three day weekend.

You have a three day weekend every week.

Every week.

Every week's like a bank holiday.

Oh, my God.

Then when it's bank holiday, they're only in for three days.

Sorry.

Wow.

But what about clients?

Aren't clients ring you up on a Friday?

Like what the man?

You know, because of the team and because of how good we are with them.

If on the odd occasion that something rolls over, needs to be done on a Friday, they'll volunteer, they'll just do it.

Right, right.

But you've got this spare day that isn't your weekend.

Exactly.

Oh, I'll work my Friday then.

Exactly.

That's it.

I love it.

Well, you said, right, we're gonna go to four day and see what happens.

Tested the productivity, the productivity went through.

The roof, you get more because people are less tired and they're more like motivated.

Focus more, get it more done.

They have that three days where they get to just spend.

Because how most people do because there's a couple of knock on effects.

So they get to do their errands on a Friday and spend Friday and Saturday doing what they really want to do.

Because most people, the partners or friends might be working.

It means that they get to spend more of their holidays on holiday.

Because when it, when they want to go for a long weekend, for example.

They won't be bothered on a Friday.

Exactly.

They can leave Thursday night and no one, no one will bother them.

Not much happens Monday morning.

Exactly.

So they feel like the holidays go further.

You can attract talent.

People come for that.

People will value that over salary anytime.

They do.

Exactly.

They do.

In terms of remote working, I don't agree with it.

So it's four days in the office a week, but you get your Fridays.

Yeah, it's attractive.

I just think generally it's killing culture.

How can you develop it when you're not together?

I don't understand that.

You develop it because basically everyone's in a little box on Zoom and they're little.

They've.

Everyone's got their own culture because they're.

All at home to some extent.

There's a little bit of hybrid.

So we've got BDMs, business development people.

They're obviously their role, they need to be out on the road.

So I wouldn't expect them to, if they're, I don't know, a meeting in Leeds, for example, to come back to the office, just so they showed the face.

We don't have that culture out of that environment.

So people don't just sort of like tick a box if you like.

We've got a very open culture.

If one of my sales people finished their meeting at 3:00, I'd be like, right, just go home then.

Because the flexibility works both ways.

If I really need them to work on a project and put the hours in, they will do because they know they get it back.

That's.

That's the yin and yang, isn't it?

And it.

And, and you can lose that quite easily.

But you, you, if you give.

Like someone said the phrase to me once, which was good because I was like, oh, but this and that.

And they were like, but can you trust yourself, Andy?

And I was like, oh, can I trust myself not to be a lazy bastard sometimes?

No, I can't try, you know, sometimes I'm A lazy bastard.

Having said that, in our jobs, you've got clients to deliver for.

You can't help but slightly obsess about it because you don't want to let them down.

Exactly.

You know, there's nothing worse.

There's nothing worse than a client leaving.

There's nothing.

You realize that you're not doing a good job.

And they're like, they're like, well, thanks for getting back to me, man.

You know, and you're like, I can't believe I forgot or whatever, you know, so there's not just a.

In a professional service business that isn't just a pressure of like the boss.

Yeah.

It's like the client.

Exactly.

You know, it's not even about the boss.

It's like, how could you let them down?

Like, you know, why do you think that's okay?

You know, that's mad.

You do the four day.

I've got a philosophy.

So happy people are productive people.

Right.

So going from being fired for every job I've ever had.

What I did is I put a culture together.

Adam Pope would not get fired from because he would not want to lose that job because he knows there isn't anything else out there that is as good.

So if Adam Pope wouldn't get fired or want to lead, then why would somebody else?

That's generally, you know, where you've messed up, mate.

When you came up with this law firm, you should have gone home to mum and dad and you should have put a video on quietly in the background that they didn't know about.

You should have pitched them this idea and they would have been like, for sake.

He's lost the plot again.

He's lost the plot again.

Do something.

I don't know what your dad's name is.

What's your dad's name?

Yeah.

Lloyd.

Do something, Lloyd.

You know?

Yeah.

And then you'd be able to play them this.

You should have could have sent it to them for Christmas, you know.

Do you remember how much you thought this is.

Because honestly, it's like the four day week to someone from my dad's generation who like you work.

You know, he comes in that post war era.

It's like.

Well, you were you talking about, he's a workaholic.

He's working but 15 hour days, my whole life, you know, he's like, what are you talking about?

But the truth is and that.

And that's the real truth is that we are incredibly inefficient as British people.

Yeah.

We.

Like a cup of tea.

We don't like, you know, put another way, if, if your life depends on it, what you can do on an hour is what you can do in a day.

So I mean, failed my GCSes.

It left a massive chip on my shoulder that, you know, my mum, mum and dad, especially my mum was like, if you don't study hard, you'll, you'll turn into nothing, blah, blah, blah.

My dad, however, he recognized that I had something else.

I was going to do something else, you know, be a business person.

Going back to the nurturing thing.

He would walk me around to friends and family.

He's going to be a millionaire one day.

I was like 7, 8, 9, 10 years old.

He just saw something in me anyway, so I've always had that, that belief.

I've never been short of like self belief.

So anyway, so I've had this fire to sort of like prove to myself that I can do it.

So the plans that I've got and the ambitions that I've got to grow my firm are very much driven by that sense of achievement and that I can do it as opposed to the financial aspect.

But the financial rewards are there.

You wouldn't do it without the money but you know, it's still painful.

And the, and the goals that I've got for the firm.

I share this phrase to my team a lot.

It's a bit like me saying I'm going to go and build a rocket from scratch and land it on moon.

That's how big the goal is.

Right.

But I'm confident that we can do it.

We've got this far and the, the money thing is obviously a motivator.

I've got a great life, I've got other personal goals that I want to fulfill.

And then the new government comes in.

The Rachel Reeves budget.

The Rachel Reeves budget.

Are you a worker or are you a non worker?

Adam?

You're probably a non worker, aren't you?

Yeah.

And just seems to be hell bent on taxing anybody that's got any ambitions.

To politics of envy.

As a tax person.

I can't get my.

Nothing I look at makes any sense.

You know, putting that on schools is so short sighted and it's already started.

They're pouring into state schools.

You know what, you know, Rachel Reeves doesn't like private schools.

Publicly said wants to get rid of them.

It's like the maths just doesn't work.

It's like these people are paying loads of tax and that's going into the system.

Then they're putting their kids in private, private school.

And I think it's this politics of envy that, oh, it's not fair, you know, I don't.

I don't know, I can't.

The atmosphere at the moment is just so toxic for an entrepreneur.

And actually this word worker is the one that got.

Got me.

You know, it's like, why, so what, what do you really mean?

You mean low income?

Yeah, but you're saying that they're workers.

So you're saying that everyone's not a worker.

So Adam and all of his part, all of these people who work in his business don't work.

Yeah, that's.

That's toxic, you know.

Do you know what doesn't make sense to me?

It's like this weird paradigm.

So I've got this dim view of the education system.

It hasn't changed for hundreds of years.

There's a reason why it hasn't, because they want people to, the majority of people to go down that route where eventually they'll find themselves on the paye.

So then you've got that and then which, like.

Well, without the companies that they're working for, I.

E.

The business owner, the entrepreneur, the family, whoever it might be, they wouldn't have those jobs who are paying pay in the first place.

So then you think, well, hang on a minute, they want people then to go to the university, pay £70,000 for their degree.

Yet the taxing, the people that are providing those opportunities, taking the risks, dealing with all the responsibility that comes with it, it just doesn't make sense.

It just like, did you see how.

Many millionaires left the UK?

Did you see that in the world?

15,000 millionaires left China last year, 10,000 left Britain.

I'm getting these numbers slightly wrong.

9,000, 8,000 left India.

So we're between India and China.

Now, look, I love India and China and everything, but I can imagine there's a lot of millionaires who leave to America.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, Britain is just hemorrhaging talent and the atmosphere is entirely anti business.

And then I look at why and I'm like, well, the Institute of Fiscal Studies, the Resolution Foundation, Rachel Reed leaves every single person in Parliament.

Did you know, I was only told this this morning by someone, there is nobody in Parliament who has been in business, not a soul, not a single person.

How the.

Can that make any sense?

Exactly where is the person around the table like you going, this is bollocks.

Yeah.

This is political bollocks.

This is politics of envy.

You know, let's.

And the farcical nature that was put under the heading of growth.

They are going to see growth through public expenditure.

But I would be shocked to say that businesses are growing, you know, or, you know, I mean, I don't know.

It's a sadness.

But your family sound like they were quite wealthy.

You know, your dad was quite successful sort of thing.

They started off in council estate.

So he's obviously, he worked for everything that he's had.

He gave me and my two brothers the opportunity and the platform.

But it's like anything else, you know, he didn't hand it to us on a plate.

We've had to work for it.

That's crucial.

That's crucial.

Had to work for it.

So without him, we wouldn't have had the platform or the opportunity.

But by no means did we have it easy.

Far, far from it.

You'd know yourself if you worked in a family business.

You know what it's like.

You don't get an easy died.

No.

With the same philosophy, man, ever since I was little, you better work.

You better work.

It's terrified of us being lazy bastards.

And it's actually your kids, your third.

Your kids will be third generation.

They're the ones that are, you know, the trickiest that you've got.

And I'm third generation, so I got my ass kicked on that point.

I wonder if my dad hadn't gone on and on and on and on about what, working hard.

Because I remember when I was little going, dad, what is working hard?

Yeah.

You know, and I remember him laughing and being like, like, it's a good question, actually.

I was like, I go to school and I roughly do what they tell me to do.

Like, is there something I'm missing here?

And I, you know, anyway, funny thought sort of thing, but.

So another.

This is very anecdotal, but my experience of some of the people I've had in my life who are most angry about the rich and most got a chip on their shoulder about it and lazy bastards.

I mean, that's my experience.

I'm sure anyone.

People listening this absolutely outrage what I'm saying.

But.

But that's my anecdotal experience.

The ones that have got a problem with, you know, oh, it's all right for you and your family business.

And it's all right.

It's like, yeah, but you, you barely work, you barely get out of bed.

Like, well, I'm not even listening to you.

Get off your ass.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, you know, I'm only, I've only got this crap job.

Well, do it.

Well, yeah, and then tell me like, you know, they're overlooking you.

It's not fair.

But for you as a business person, you, you think the politics is toxic at the moment, 100%.

Like, I've got a friend and he told me that the nhs, for example, he got this from one of the senior leaders in a Blackpool on file trust and they were saying that they spend a million pounds a year on toilet roll.

Right.

The cost of which was two or three times the price per roll than it would be in asda.

What?

There's no centralized buy in within any of the NHS trusts.

So you think about if a business person was running all of the different trusts.

Yeah, centralized, the buy in.

Economies of scale.

So I think it just goes to.

Show no one's coming in as a business person.

And my wife works as a doctor and she, I mean, she stopped doing this particular job, but they, they had six offices in urgent care and the nurses would sit in the offices because they, they.

And she'd have to hide behind a curtain.

And it was really pissed me off.

She was the one examining all the patients and the nurses were, whatever.

And I was like, like, where's your boss?

Like, where is the person coming in and going, this is.

Get out of an office.

No one wants to upset anyone.

It's like, oh, no.

But they don't want to upset the nurses.

Upset the nurses.

You're a doctor behind a curtain.

This is like.

But you're too nice to say anything but a bit.

You know, that used to be ran by the army, the nhs.

I think probably it should be.

Yeah.

I mean, Ian, Army's brutal top down approach, you know, and I mean that's, that's got to make more sense than where we are right now.

What do you think about Trump appointing Elon Musk?

I think that's the sort of thing we should do here.

You know what?

People again, have this deep hatred for Elon for some of the things he's done or said.

And I don't understand how they don't separate the fact that we're all.

I think, I think people are nuanced and people are complex characters and I think we need to be more forgiving of politicians, of everyone.

You know, I don't care if people have blow jobs or make mistakes or did drugs or where people are people.

If we know the truth about anyone and you, we all know that the one who looks most white and white, right, he's the pedophile, he's the one doing the stuff that we won't forgive.

That is outrageous.

Look at the church.

What's just happened?

You know, they're always so.

That's outrageous.

So what was weird is we don't accept that people are complex characters.

So Elon is, whether you like it or not, brilliant at running big, complex businesses and ruthlessly.

And business is ruthless.

It's an international competition.

So to, you know, they.

There's never gonna be it in that labor party, but bringing someone to the table who was brutal about these things, you know, it's like people don't wanna hear it.

People don't wanna hear, like, you're shit at your job.

People don't want, you know, employment rights, great example.

You know, they're trying to bring in full employment rights from day one.

Everyone is not being an employer.

Thinks, yeah, great.

More.

More for me.

Yeah.

You know, I was just.

Someone was texting me who needed some help, a friend of a friend, and they were giving me this chain and they were being made redundant and they were all so angry and they were like, it's this business screwing us.

And they're.

And it's like, oh, like, you know, business is business.

You know, like, you can't.

If you can't afford to pay people, you can't afford to pay people.

Trust me, they're not making you redundant because things are going well.

Yeah.

You know, they're not going, oh, things are going really well, John.

Let's make more money and get rid of some stuff.

So the idea to bring employment rights down to zero so you immediately can't fire someone and.

And you're like, yeah, but okay, I'm only going to fire someone because they're shit or we can't afford it.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, I struggle to come up with other reasons.

You know what I mean?

Or we've decided we want to do that strategy anymore.

We thought we needed this person.

It's a bad idea.

So that's not the narrative.

The narrative is, is business bosses, those rich people in power, are evil and they run things like Thames water and they're all evil people, and therefore they're firing me because they're evil and they want more money, I think.

Is it not just that they're entitled?

Yeah, yeah, maybe entitled to a job, you mean.

Entitled.

Still.

Just entitled.

Just wholesale with everything.

Yeah.

So I.

It's like my sister's died and that was an entitlement shock.

That's like, oh, I thought we were all entitled to 70 years or something.

It's like, no, this is life, you know, but we have somehow, like the conservatives Went loony.

Like loony right wing, sort of like, I don't know, chasing the sort of immigration thing.

It's sort of.

Whereas it should have been, you know, about business.

At least they had business people in the party.

I mean, Jeremy Hunt and mispronounced his name easily.

You know, I used.

He's been in business.

I mean, I'm not like saying I'm his fan, I don't know him, you know, but the fact someone's telling me we've got a cabinet with nobody in business means we're screwed.

Yeah, we are screwed right now.

You know, this is going to be terrible for business.

I don't feel business has a voice, do you?

Not just in cabinet, generally.

Yeah, generally, I think we're massively underrepresented.

I just feel like there's this agenda.

Punish the rich, punish them.

Their fault.

It's the immigrant's fault.

It's the richest fault.

It ain't the richest fault.

And now a quick word from our sponsor.

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I mean, that's bullshit.

Is there anything else you think's bullshit?

LinkedIn gurus, I would say the vast, the vast majority of LinkedIn gurus are just full of shit.

But you're someone who likes self development and those sorts of books.

Isn't that what they're doing or.

Sure, but often without the substance to be able to say, this is the advice that I'm giving.

Teaching or preaching is based on something that I can say, well, I've done this, so you should listen to me.

Yeah, I'm one of them, you know, I value everybody's opinion, advice up to a point, but when it comes to listening for business, it's like, well, am I going to listen to, you know, Dave or Doris the hairdresser?

Am I going to listen to people that have.

That have gone down the path that I'm aiming to achieve the goals that I'm working towards?

And I think they're the people's advice that I generally look for or seek out or look up to?

But then you look at a lot of these LinkedIn influences, a lot of them got a pot to piss in.

Empty vessels make the most noise.

Exactly.

There's A lot of fake gurus out there.

20, 30,000 followers.

And you look at at what they've actually achieved, it doesn't seem to marry up.

So yeah, that does my head in.

So we're just going to do some quick fire questions just to get to know you a little bit better.

Easy questions, super fast answer as quick as you can.

D c the music.

What was your first job?

My first job?

Washing cars.

Oh, classic.

What was your.

Mowing lawns.

Mowing lawns?

Yeah.

Which came first?

Mowing lawns.

Both I was doing, I was like double bubbling.

So I would get a double bu.

Get the car clean, dual qualified.

That's it.

Can I mow your lawn?

That was, that was the sort of pitch.

Oh, wow.

Knocking a doors kind of thing.

Wow.

Did your dad push you out the door?

He let me his lawnmower and his mucket in his bucket and sponge.

Brilliant.

What was your worst job?

My worst job?

Working in a bar.

Oh really?

Yeah, I've worked in bars, but there was this one particular bar that I really didn't like.

I just didn't like the people.

So in Manchester?

Yeah.

What's the first letter of the bar?

It was called Smithell's Hall.

Okay.

We could say it's name.

It's gone now, has it?

Yeah, it's gone now.

And so I went and did one shift.

I was like, I don't like it.

My mum and dad was like, you're going back.

So they used to drive me there.

I walked in as soon as I knew they'd left.

I was just walked out.

And then I would turn up at the.

I would then rock up at home when.

Around the time that they would expect me to be back and just that little, little game for a few weeks until they caught me out.

Has it occurred to you your parents may be exactly like you and that's why they dealt with you the way they dealt with you, you know?

Cause it's very rebellious of them to say, I know you've been a very naughty boy.

But mums never, never give up.

I mean, you see them on TV when they get the serial murderers and the mum's like, well, he was always a lovely boy.

Well, not always.

Yeah, they definitely persevered.

Favorite subject at school?

Business.

Oh, is there a subject called business?

There was when I was there.

Yeah, There was.

Okay.

What's your special skill?

Sales.

Sales.

Really good at sales.

Okay.

What did you want to be when you grew up?

Estate agent.

I liked you.

It's gone.

It's gone really wrong.

In the last two questions, what did your parents want you to be?