Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome is a complex of metabolic and hormonal imbalances. It not only causes menstrual irregularities, but also effects fertility, secondary sex characteristics, and  can be related to elevated cholesterol and blood sugar levels as a woman ages. 

While conventional biomedicine can control some of the symptoms of this disorder, there isn't much it offers in terms of getting to the root of the issue. 

Chinese medicine on the other hand offers a wealth of possibilities that can help to get to the root of the causes and fundamentally shift a woman's physiology and bring balance to the body.

Our guest in this episode knows a lot about PCOS, as she suffered from this disorder and after being dismissed as a troublesome patient decided to see if she could find another way to heal. She did, and today she helps women find their own natural balance without the use of drugs or hormones.

Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

The medicine of east Asia is based on a science that does not hold itself

separate from the phenomenon that it seeks to understand our medicine

did not grow out of Petri dish, experimentation, or double blind studies.

It arose from observing.

And our part in it east Asian medicine evolves not from the examination

of dead structures, but rather from living systems with their complex

neutrally entangled interactions.

Welcome to qiological.

I'm Michael max, the host of this podcast that goes in depth on issues,

pertinent to practitioners and students.

Of east Asian medicine, dialogue and discussion have always been elemental to

Chinese and other east Asian medicines.

Listening to these conversations with experienced practitioners that go deep

into how this ancient medicine is alive and unfolding in the modern clinic.

People seek out our services because they're looking for some kind of a change.

Usually it's because they have something they don't want and

they want to get rid of it.

Although the opposite is also frequently true.

They don't have.

And they desire to get it, but something we might not think about

is the nature of the change that our patients are seeking or the process

of change that they might already be.

the two character Chinese word for change can help to clue us in to the

kind of change our patients are seeking.

I'll be back a little later in the show to discuss how understanding

the nature of change can help you with your clinical work.

Hi everybody.

Welcome back to Sheila.

Today.

My guest is Farah Duro.

Farrah is an acupuncturist and herbalist in Florida.

She has a specialty in treating women's health and in particular fertility

and polycystic ovarian syndrome, PC O S she was recently on the everyday

acupuncture podcast, episode number 75.

Shouldn't be no more for the general public.

If you have patients that might have issues with these kinds of things like

PCO S uh, you might want to have them listen to that podcast because there's

some great information there, but today we are going to get deep and geeky

into how you can help your patient.

Using some of the things that fare has discovered over the years.

And also we're going to talk about a new podcast a little

later in the show as well.

Pharaoh, welcome to qiological.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

I'm so excited to be having this conversation with.

Because after we did that show for everyday acupuncture podcast, I had some

new ideas about looking at and thinking about polycystic ovarian syndrome.

And it's been helping me in clinic because there are some patients

that I've had that previously.

I wouldn't have really thought, oh, maybe she's got PCO.

S but now I'm starting to think about the possibilities and the kid.

I just saw a kid recently.

She's 16.

Can I say that's a kid, it feels like a kid to me.

And it was so helpful because now I'm thinking about things that I can do

that might help her years down the road.

Yeah.

I just think that you just changed her whole life trajectory,

basically just by identifying that.

And, you know, probably she had no idea, no clue what was going on.

And I could also imagine her mother to being very relieved,

to have a few answers.

So that's great.

Yeah.

It was a little surprising for them to hear that since I'm not a gynecologist.

And you know, usually these are the kinds of discussions that

women have with their Guidos.

And so it's, it's kind of unusual to, you know, be an acupuncturist

and be able to help women like this.

I think we have a tremendous opportunity because we do spend more time with our

patients on a whole, uh, we'll be able to glance into their whole menstrual

history just by asking our detailed questions about the cycle like we do

and all the things that we want to know, they might not have ever been asked

that before by their gynecologist or.

Exactly.

It's kind of interesting.

Well, let's, let's start in with your journey into this.

Um, as I recall, you sort of found your way to Chinese medicine due to a flying

pack of birth control pills coming in.

Yeah, that was definitely, um, the, the good fortune that I had.

And I was, I'm really thankful for that day, honestly, uh, growing up in

Alabama, I really, I grew up in a really small town and we had one red light and

I actually lived down the street from.

So it was, it was actually a husband and wife.

They had a small herbal health food store, and I remember being 12 years old and

just walking over to that down a dirt road to this health food store and just

being surrounded by all these herbs.

And I was just fascinated.

So I knew at an early age that there definitely was a beauty.

Natural medicine, uh, Eve.

And I would just pick up books and learn as much as I could.

So they really did teach me a lot.

And, you know, basically just making my own acne textures out

of Rosemary and things like that.

So I was kind of that weird kid growing up, like going, okay.

I'm definitely different.

I know that, but I really, really loved plant-based medicine.

So when that happened, I just knew, I said, you know what?

It's definitely an opportunity here.

I can get really upset and I could just give up or I could

start looking for answers.

So that really turned me more towards Eastern medicine.

Yeah.

New to scratch your own itch on that one.

Right.

And I knew that other women were another girls.

I mean, I was 19 when it happened, so I knew that other girls were suffering too.

You know, thought, well, there has to be something to that.

It's like, I can't be the only one.

So, so off to Chinese medicine.

Right.

I was actually going the pre-med route and I did a research paper

on acupuncture and addiction for a psychology class I was taking.

And I said, wow, this makes so much more sense, actually.

And, uh, I had never had acupuncture before.

I didn't even know an acupuncturist.

Um, because in Alabama it's still not regulated.

So, uh, we just, I just basically said, that's it for me.

I'm going to Florida and I'm studying Chinese medicine and

I'm going to heal myself and get.

That's what happened.

Awesome.

Let's dive into some of this stuff.

What I'd like to do is begin with kind of the Western point of view.

I know for myself, patients often come in and they they're, they're often

well-versed in their Western diagnosis and the various symptoms in the

various treatments, that kind of thing.

Uh, we're going to get deep into the Chinese medicine piece here

in a moment, but let's begin.

With just what is polycystic ovarian?

So.

Sure.

It's a hormonal disorder and it is common among women of reproductive age.

It's pretty common, pretty underdiagnosed.

And my dad and I, most of the time, women with PCOS are going to have pretty

infrequent or perhaps prolonged menstrual periods and also excess male hormones.

Or androgen levels.

Uh, also the ovaries might develop numerous small collections of

fluid, or they say, you know, they could be called follicles.

Um, and basically those fluid filled cyst or follicles just don't release.

Like they would normally for someone who is obviating every month, they

kind of collect around the ovaries and that's what makes them appear perlite.

Or they have a cystic like appearance on an ultra.

So this is usually diagnosed with, by a medical doctor during an examination,

or sometimes just looking at blood work.

If the testosterone levels are elevated or DHA, the.

Looking at that.

And then also seeing, well, the period is irregular.

That's another hallmark.

So you really just need two out of three things to be true in

order to get a PCLs diagnosis now.

And basically that's irregular periods, high levels of male

hormones, and also polycystic ovaries.

So if two out of three appear, then that is usually a PCOS diagnosis.

Okay.

So those are the, the main things that we're looking at here.

Uh, for that diagnosis, what are the main treatments that our

patients might've already undergone an attempt to correct this.

A lot of women come to us that have been on birth control for many, many years.

And that's just basically an attempt to control a cycle or to produce a,

are an artificial period and keep all the symptoms at bay laps, like acne

and mood swings and that sort of thing.

And it's really more of a band-aid approach.

So that is one of the most common approaches, also diabetes

medications, because PCL.

It PCLs is a pre-diabetic like condition.

So, um, they're using Glucophage or Metformin to help with, um,

controlling insulin resistance.

And that's basically another, then we'd go into the fertility treatments, which

would be using, uh, clomiphene or Clomid are from aura are basic or IVF as well.

Just medications do help.

Uh, a woman ovulate and the lack of ovulation is usually the reason for

fertility problems in women with PCOS.

You mentioned that Metformin is often used, so this is sort of a pre-diabetic

or a metabolic syndrome type thing, you know, in Chinese medicine.

I think we'd probably talk about that as a spleen condition.

Does that, does that cotton for you?

Does that make sense?

Right.

I, we typic, I believe that over years and years of treating, PCLs,

it's really a complicated pattern in Eastern and Western medicine.

So the things that makes it so much harder to treat, um, most of the time,

I think in young girls, it might present as liver cheese stagnation with a

little bit of spleen cheat efficiency, but over time that becomes more.

Kidney spleen, young deficiency and also a little bit blood Stacy's as well.

Uh, so if you can catch it early in the liver cheese stagnation phase,

that's wonderful because you're going to be actually getting faster results.

But as time goes by, it does start to affect the kidney,

the liver and the spleen.

Let's talk about this a little bit.

Let's talk about, you know, a young woman maybe just started menstruating

and in her period, it's been difficult maybe from the get go.

How would you begin to treat that?

And do you have any case studies that you might be able to share with us about?

Uh, that would give us a glimpse into your thinking on this.

Sure.

Yeah.

I mean, definitely we're looking at Chung and run disharmonies oh, I use a

lot of extraordinary vessel treatment and I believe I took a course from

Jeffrey Yuen several, several years ago when I graduated from school

and it really was just eyeopening.

It was actually.

Ordinary vessel infertility course, but I use that in my practice ever since.

And I just find that with so many disorders involving the

reproductive channel, we need to get deeper into those channels.

And so I definitely start with that.

Um, I using, uh, ran and Chong channels and also spleen

liver, kidney channels as well.

What I've seen that with, I guess you could say in my case,

my cycles were very spread out.

Sometimes I wouldn't get a cycle for 60 to 90.

And with some of the patients I treat, they have had never, they've

never really had a regular cycle or a cycle without being induced with

Provera or certain medications.

So, uh, so we really do need to create a cycle almost.

I mean, we need to help the body start to ovulate again so that you can, the period

will come on its own without being forced.

And so you find the eight extras have been helpful for.

Extremely helpful.

Right.

And I, and getting back to how, I guess I was treated in the clinic

when I was in school, I actually started taking shaoyang Assan.

I went to China to study there and, uh, had my pulse red, but I had a

really old pulse diagnosis master.

And he said, you're going to need to take this for about five years.

And so he actually was right.

I took it for off and on for about five or six years.

And that very formula actually helped me get pregnant with my son

and my daughter, the same bottle, actually, which is really funny.

um, so if it, cause it's basically being caught a little early, but with our

patients, we do combine the extraordinary vessel treatments with a four-phase

formula approach, similar to blossom.

Blossomed my evergreen herbs switch.

I really liked that composition.

It's easy for patients to take because it's in capsule.

And I like it because it does address the kidney such a deep level.

And it also helps them create a pattern where, you know, to balance the estrogen

and progesterone levels and also really work on the LH surge and things

like that from a natural perspective.

So we've had a lot of blossoming.

So evergreen, thank you very much for that formula.

Uh, it's beautiful in the way that it's constructed and you know, not only that,

but we use that formula series phases one through four to, as a start, but

also we use it a composition, basically a T that we can customize to the patient

along with the blossom of formula.

So that's been really helpful.

What is in that blossom?

Well, phase one starts with moving blood.

So basically if someone has not had a period in several months, we're really

looking at starting with phase one.

Can you, can you back up just a moment and tell us about the phase.

Sure.

Um, well, the overview is basically that you have four phases and blossom

phase one would be starting on day one of your cycle, which would be

if you're having cycles, it would be the first day of full flow.

So you're typically, and based on a 28 day cycle are going to move

through each phase one per week.

So basically phase one would be week one, phase two would be a week two.

Okay.

You know, and et cetera, phase three, a week, three and

phase four phase a week four.

And so looking at what is going on there, when we look at the cycle,

it's a little bit more complicated when we're working with fertility, as

opposed to let's just relieve some of the symptoms and that sort of thing.

So if we're looking at phase two, what that does is nourish kidney and, and

that's important to help follicular.

Especially if they've just been sitting there dormant and for probably

years, I mean, perhaps some, some patients haven't operated for years.

So if we're looking at that, what does phase two do the importance of that?

It's it's nourishing kidney yen and the basis of that formula is a kid kidney.

Again, similar to that's.

And then phase three would be the ambulatory formula and that's

more kidney young tonification.

So that's really important as well.

And phase four focuses on moving liver cheese.

So that's really, uh, the luteal phase.

Formula for as far as the blossom formulas go.

So sometimes it depends on what we're feeling in the pulse and the time we might

stay on phase four for a while, if there's a lot of liver cheese coming up and,

and couple that with the constitutional formula, let's see, getting back for

just a moment to the eight extras.

Do you use the couple of points as a way of working with them, or are you more

of looking at the trajectory of those channels and finding points a relative.

On the trajectory.

So a lot of times my treatment, I mean, I guess like with all of us,

it will change according to what you're seeing on with the tongue

of the policy and also palpation.

And I do my and abdominal therapy as well.

So I, I kind of mix the two.

I do acupuncture and mine, abdominal therapy in one visit.

And that is how, because that is abdominal work, um, to check for.

Also stasis or are any pain along the stomach, 30 line or around 3, 1,

4, and doing some manual treatment as well on the sacrum and all those

great UV to the 31 through 34 points, um, and alignment of the hips.

So just, you know, really do.

A lot of palpation.

If I see that, um, there is some spaces in the lower abdominal

area, which happens a lot because it is some congestion going on.

Perhaps the lymph nodes in the inguinal area are congested.

Then I'm actually going to needle stomach 30 stomach 29 or in three and four.

And then also with the opening points as well.

So you're, you're palpating for areas of stagnation and then looking to release.

Right.

And I mean, sometimes if somebody hasn't had their period for a

long time, they are going to have.

Around the ovaries.

And just because a lot of times with PCLs they have enlarged ovaries.

So it's just something, um, that makes a lot of sense to us.

We're saying, okay, it's, they're stuck, you know, I mean, it's

definitely some congestion going on.

So using a little heat, there is fabulous.

It feels so nice.

A lot of times, uh, when they are getting that combination approach,

even if you're not doing a Mayan abdominal treatment, you're doing.

A little bit of work, um, perhaps some massage around even, you know, rent

12 and that sort of thing, that that's also really helpful and, um, Castro,

heat packs, or just a heat lamp there as well and moxa and moxa, lovely moxa.

You mentioned the blood sugar thing, and I want to get into that here in Chester.

But before I do, you also talked about that on an ultrasound, you'll often see

these fluid-filled sort of vesicles.

These are the cysts that are sort of the cyst of poly ovarian syndrome in

treating these fluid filled cysts.

I'm wondering, I'm wondering what you're thinking about here.

I mean, when I hear that from you, my first thought goes to, Hmm.

There might be some sort of fluid metabolism issue here

that I need to pay attention to.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that.

I mean nine times out of 10, I see it as phlegm and blood stagnation.

So it's not, I think the phlegm might be over-emphasized a little bit with PCO us

and it's because sometimes we S we see, okay, the tongue is a little swollen,

but the biggest thing is blood status.

Because when that period actually comes, it's not going to be pleasant.

A lot of times it is going to be pretty dark.

It can be cloudy.

So behind that is, is the blood status.

And also you can have.

The period that lasts forever.

So if somebody hasn't had their period in a year, and then all of a sudden

you're actually helping, I'm not saying inducing the period, but you

are helping that period to arrive.

Then it can be quite uncomfortable.

And sometimes it lasts for 10, 15 days.

Uh, so we have to look at it as there's some work to do

with the spleen and sometimes.

Focusing on damp is not exactly accurate.

I don't think in my opinion, I mean, as far as what would be the most effective,

I rarely use phlegm type herbs with PCLs.

So it might be a little bit unusual in that aspect, but I am, I do like

to focus on blood moving herbs.

Okay.

Helpful to know.

Let's go a little bit into this thing of blood.

And it's relationship to PCO S and more importantly, how we deal with

it as Chinese medicine practitioner.

Right.

I mean, definitely the spleen plays a role.

And the first thing that we say is, you know what, we're going to have to

back off on dairy dairy and the white foods like pastries and refined carbs.

So just looking at.

Um, the weight in general, sometimes there's a problem

with obesity or weight gain.

And that actually does help, obviously because you're

eliminating sugar and dairy.

But what we're also trying to do is help this Blaine work with.

So, if we're focusing on as this Wayne Young deficiency, underlying everything,

and, you know, really helping with the insulin and balances, sometimes that

just falls in place when we're actually working a little bit on, uh, like

incorporating a spleen sheet, diet and spring, explain strengthening foods like

our root vegetables and things like that.

So it's so important.

I think that we've got some wonderful tools.

Using Chinese medicine, food therapy.

I mean, it's, it's excellent.

So even if you're just doing one thing, it's basically telling

them, please just back off dairy and that makes a huge difference.

The phlegm aspect.

So, yeah.

And then helping the spleen work a little better.

Definitely.

And you know, now there's some theory about, perhaps PCLs might be related

to the Epstein-Barr virus, which they say kind of feeds off, you know,

eggs, dairy, these sort of things.

So whatever the cause of it, we know that our treatment works.

I mean, it it's just time tested and.

We have amazing tools.

So if we stay focused on what this plane is, is doing in Chinese medicine,

it's really not transforming very well.

If there are some insulin imbalances and some blood sugar issues.

And also if you know, there's a lot of fatigue going on a lot of times,

it just they'll say I'm just so tired.

And even if I sleep, I still wake up exhausted.

Well, then we see a lot of patients with PCOS have thyroid.

So, you know, you look at the thyroid as well.

It's part of our endocrine system and also the kidney is probably not

working as well as it should either.

So, okay.

From, and you can speak here from both the Western and or Chinese medicine

point of view on this one, I'm curious to know how is it that sugar and

insulin levels seem to drive this.

Right.

Oh, well, I mean, you could look at it as insulin can help.

It can affect so many other things, so it can drive other hormonal levels.

So if, if we're not, if our pancreas is not working well and are,

we're actually secreting too much insulin, it can be stored as fat.

And the fat in turn actually causes our.

To rise.

And so the, all that excess estrogen is just driving up all

the other symptoms in the body.

And then along with it, you have lovely testosterone that's actually

brewing and getting higher.

So it, it actually manifests with a lot of irritability.

It could be acne, hair loss, abnormal hair growth.

So many things happening and then obviously in fertility and diabetes and

heart disease on down the road, because you've just got all that unopposed,

estrogen we don't want to talk about, but, but it could be that breast cancer

is one of those things that we look at.

And if we could prevent all of that, I just think that we have such an

opportunity in front of us to do this.

I mean, PCLs is not just a reproductive disorder.

You can take out your ovaries and you can still have PCLs.

That's interesting.

Tell us more about.

Right.

I mean, it affects everything.

So if we just say, let's just pretend that, you know, it just isn't a variant

disorder and a long time ago, they were actually doing some sort of drilling

technique where they would remove some of the ovary or that sort of thing.

Um, it it's still, I mean, you still have all the symptoms as well.

I mean, you, you actually cannot.

Isolate one thing and say, we're, we're just gonna remove the ovaries because

even women who actually are in menopause, they still have this quality of PCLs.

So perhaps it manifests as high capacity.

Or they could also have a higher risk of diabetes still.

So, and most of the time there is some history of diabetes in the family.

So for instance, my father has type two diabetes.

There is a higher incidence of my children.

Aren't my daughter having PCLs because I had it.

So there's many different things going on, but if you look at family history

and then you can tell them, guess what?

We have a chance right now to.

Prevent this from happening in the future.

And this is not just something to do with your ovaries.

This is your mental wellbeing as well.

There's anxiety and depression that come with.

PCLs so many things that we can address and we can really make a difference with

yeah, if I'm following you correctly here, then there could be issues.

That some women are having, especially later in life, right?

Diabetes, heart disease, these kinds of things.

And, and perhaps the underlying reason is PCO.

Right.

Right.

And I think that they're just, that's not paid attention to as much because,

oh, you're, you know, you're over 50.

You're not, you're not going to get pregnant.

So a lot of the doctors are actually not looking at PCLs anymore after a certain

age, but it's still, it's still PCLs and it's a lot of times not being addressed.

So what happens is, um, they're on hormone replacement therapy and then.

Getting taken off of it.

And then everything starts to go haywire.

Wow.

The cholesterol is going up hypertension or I'm all of a

sudden I'm gaining all this weight.

And I can't, I can't seem to lose weight.

My thyroid's out of control.

So we see these things every single day and we say, God,

I wish we could rewind a bit.

And really treat the root cause.

Now we're going to do that, but it's gonna, it's not

going to be a short process.

It's gonna take a little while

time for a little break here.

I don't want to share with you some brilliance that I gleaned from Sabine.

Wilms new.

Humming with elephants.

It's chapter five from the PSU end.

And it's about the resonant manifestations, a yin

and yang in the book.

She points out that while in modern Chinese, the two characters BNY mean

change in a sort of generic way.

Each of the characters separately though speaks to a different kind of chain.

Ben is more of a step-by-step incremental change.

Whereas Huawei is a transformation that profoundly and

irreversibly changes something.

So for example, a rainstorm would be a BN type change while the

typhoon that blows your house down.

That's why slowly Stephanie arthritic joints that's BN I cancer diagnosis.

Well, now you're looking at.

It's helpful to keep these distinctions in mind as your patients might be in the

midst of a hot type change, but there we're really hoping for a more of a PN.

Likewise, they might not want the step-by-step incremental nature

of a BIA type change when the transformative Hua is what they're after.

So the next time a patient comes in looking for I'm using quotes here, chain.

See, if you can differentiate what kind they're looking

for, is it PN or is it hock?

. And now let's get into this second half of this show.

Can you give us an example?

When we talked earlier about a younger woman in, and you would

often use the blood moving formulas.

What about a woman who is more middle age and maybe even getting close to menopause?

How would you approach helping somebody in that situation?

All right.

Well, all of the kidney yen, a deficiency that we see a lot of times,

it's just coupled with liver fire at that point, because they're a bit

frustrated after all these years, nothing's really changed much and

things seem to be getting worse and PMs.

It's one of those things that actually can manifest and get

worse with age, unfortunately.

Uh, so if we don't address it, um, we need to look at what happened

with that liver cheese stagnation.

Is it now turning into fiber cystic breast or are we having issues?

Our relationships and what how's it manifesting and

what are we frustrated with?

Because it comes through a lot.

Um, w we see so many different things happening at that particular

point where it should be a point where, you know, you're receiving

all this wisdom and you're actually able to be more comfortable in

your skin and that's not happening.

So there's definitely an imbalance and a disconnect going on.

Yeah.

What are some of the surprising things that you've learned

about treating PCLs over these.

Never say never that's one thing.

Um, and I remember just being terrified when I had my first patient with PCLs

and I was actually working at a fertility clinic and she came in with one of those.

With polycystic ovarian syndrome with a blood clotting disorder, with a

rod in her spine and also a fibroid.

So I said, I don't know.

And she wanted, and she also had a history of three miscarriages.

So I said, I'm really not sure if I can help you.

And she actually only ovulated every like three or four times a year.

So she only had a few cycles to work with and she really wanted to get pregnant.

So I was terrified.

Honestly, I was trying to research every single thing I could.

I told her, I really wasn't sure if I could help her.

So long story short, after about four or five months of working

together, she said, I don't really know if I can do this anymore.

And of course that was a month she got pregnant and basically we were

using, I was using formulas and acupuncture and all kinds of stuff.

So I would see I called her, her doctor that she was working with.

And he, I said, I think that, you know, she's gonna need some

testing because she's pregnant.

She, yeah.

Several miscarriages.

It sure enough.

She had a blood clotting disorder that had not been treated.

So we use Chinese medicine in addition to heparin and have friend

is well, is actually not used as much.

Now they use Lovenox, but it's a blood thinning medication.

And in her case it saved her pregnancy.

So up until then, and obviously I took her off herbs at that time.

But, you know, it really, I had just thought, wow, not only did she only have

one ovary, but the other, she only had one fallopian tube and the fallopian tube

was on the opposite side of the ovary.

So that little fallopian tube had reached over.

I had grabbed that egg from the polycystic ovary and actually.

Yeah, it resulted in a pregnancy.

So I said, okay, after this, I will never say never.

I cannot, you know, imagine a more difficult case, but she had

a healthy girl and it was great.

Wow.

So it's kind of fun to do the impossible, isn't it?

Yeah, it's really tremendous.

And of course that was her only child.

She said, I think I'm done after this.

And, but after I actually think she had three miscarriages before that,

because it was a blood clotting disorder was, was not diagnosed until.

Yeah, the last pregnancy, but I think that we can work with and reach out

to the gynecologist and to the IVF doctors and say, you know what, we're

doing these particular treatments.

And it's really important if you have somebody with a history of loss, because

you will see that too with PCLs is that there could be some history of

miscarriage because over time, the elevated testosterone can damage eggs.

And so the eggs suffer.

I mean, it, it, they're sitting there, but they're not w when that happens,

sometimes the equality is not so good.

So you can have a higher rate of miscarriage with Clomid as well.

So reaching out, making sure that they're taken care of is really important and

all the tools that we have, I still use extraordinary vessel treatment

during the first trimester as well.

It's really, it's really, I think really beneficial.

Yeah.

You know, it, it sounds challenging.

I mean, not just from the.

Perspectives of how do we diagnose this and treat it.

But as you mentioned, especially for women, you know, more in mid age, it's

a long haul and it's, it's often tough for patients to recognize progress as

they're moving along, we sometimes see progress for them, but it's hard for them.

Right?

You had this patient who said, I don't know if I can keep doing this.

I'm wondering if you have any.

Thoughts or ideas or ways you have of working with patients when

you know, it's a long haul, how do you help them recognize the

milestones that they've passed?

How do you help them recognize that something's actually changing?

And that changes is a movement in the right direction.

You want to keep them motivated and, and continuing with, uh,

moving forward with, with getting.

That's a really good question because we have to always find out what is the

main reason that they're coming to us.

Is it because they are trying to get pregnant, which is going to be

probably a longer treatment, perhaps?

And, or is it because.

They just want to regulate their cycles or they just want to come off birth control.

So what's the goal.

And if the goal is fertility, then obviously it's going

to be a longer treatment.

Um, and, and it, and sometimes it's combined with Western medicine.

So we're working with fertility drugs as well.

But, you know, it's, I'm always very honest and open saying, this

is, this is a chronic condition and we can only really do so much.

And the time that we have, so if we have.

Three to six months to really help maximize what your hormones

can do and what your body can do.

That is optimal.

If we don't have that long, then we might not get all of the things accomplished

that we want to get accomplished.

But we're going to try for young, let's say younger women who they're

not looking to get pregnant.

They just want to fix their peer.

They just, they just want to feel better.

Maybe get rid of the acne, you know, some of the various things that go

along with this, what kind of timeframe are we often looking at and what kinds

of treatments seem to help those.

I think that if someone is coming in, for instance, we have 14 and

15 year old girls that come in and their mom says, I just don't want to

put them on birth control, but they just are not having regular cycles.

What can we do?

I do like to start with a basic formula, like, um, it could be a

Sutong or shaoyang that sort of thing, or even adding Fitex, um, because.

It's something that actually, I find they're very compliant with.

If, if they're feeling better, they'll, they'll take it.

And, you know, there's that motivation there.

And sometimes there are some of my best patients because they

really understand like, oh yeah, I'm not supposed to eat that.

Or I have to do this because if I don't, I don't feel.

And I want to get better.

So, uh, we do have them also keep a journal and we can see that some of

the pattern is okay, these, these symptoms are coming around when

my periods should be coming on.

So, and then they actually regulate their.

Pretty quickly.

And, uh, most of the time, I mean, I always, I'm just so amazed at that.

And so if we can address it at that point, that's, that's really great.

And sometimes I bring it up to some of our patients that say, oh yeah, I do

treat, you know, younger girls as well.

And they're like, oh, well, my cousin's having this issue.

Or my daughter, I didn't even know.

That this was out there and this could help.

So it's not going to happen to nice, unless you mentioned

it and you talk about it more.

You know, I mentioned earlier in the show that because of our first

discussion on the other podcast show, I've started to clue into some things

in my clinical practice that w that I would have not noticed previously.

So for our listeners out here, the other practitioners, what is it that we might

be overlooking that actually could be PCR?

Well, number one is always asked, when was your last period?

And most of that, those questions are on our intake forms.

But well, if you notice that they're not sure, or they can't remember,

cause it's been so long or maybe they've been on birth control,

but it's not for contraception.

You know, they, they were placed on it, but they really didn't know why,

because a lot of times it wasn't ever explained to them just here.

So that could be a clue of like, do you, what was your cycle like

before you started birth control?

And they have to really think about that sometimes.

So number one cycle irregularity is one of the biggest clues.

And then if you do see somebody.

Has perhaps a little bit of abnormal facial hair or they are getting a little

bit of darkness around the skin folds.

That's usually an insulin imbalance to the discoloration of the skin, I'd say

in the neck and underneath the arms.

And when you're doing your points, you can see that.

Uh, and also just in general, they're complaining to you that they are.

Healthy.

They just don't feel good as far as, you know, they just can never seem to

lose weight and that sort of thing.

A lot of times you will see women who have PCLs they're thin, so it's not

always going to affect, but a lot of times they have to, you know, they still

struggle with some of the same issues.

It's just that they're not gaining weight as fast as other women who

have some work, you know, I guess more pronounced insulin imbalances.

Okay.

Often I have women who have migraines that cycle around their period.

Does this relate to that in any way?

I mean, we do see that a lot with endometriosis actually.

So I know we're not on talking about that, but I have seen a big correlation with

endometriosis and pre-menstrual migraines, and I just feel like that's that blood

stagnation issue coming right back.

And when we address it at the root, it just seems to kind of go away and they

go, well, you come to think about it.

It really hasn't been happening anymore.

So, um, when you start working with the liver and the spleen channels, I think.

It's just part of our treatment.

I also like the tan balance method, who it actually uses some points of it.

I, I believe I'm not sure the name of it exactly, but it does have a lot

of spleen, stomach, large intestine sort of balance points in there.

So there's automatically points added for migraines and

headaches and that sort of thing.

And that is one of the best treatments I think for menstrual pain in general.

Really good results with sometimes with PCLs you also

have coexisting endometriosis.

It makes it a little bit more complicated, right?

Yeah.

We're going to talk about your podcast in a moment because that's a great resource.

But before we do, I'd like to see if there's any other resources, books,

or websites, or just things out there that other practitioners could avail

themselves of to learn more about how to treat their patients that have this.

Uh, well, I, I think it's a great idea for anyone who's working with women who

have cycle irregularities or infertility to, uh, read the classic Toni Weschler

takes taking charge of your fertility.

Um, it's one of my favorite books because it makes it so much.

Easier to explain to patients that if they are charting their temperatures,

which is one of the things you can do for PCLs that we didn't talk

about, but it's free and they can actually see if they're ovulating.

So when they do it correctly, when they take the temperature in the

morning, they start to see a pattern and you can actually just print out

one of those charts from her website.

She actually has a really good references in that book too.

And you can teach them how to chart their.

And it's just really important for them to actually be able to see on paper.

We've actually had patients who have PCOS, who found out they were pregnant

that way many, many times because they, they, one of the most frustrating things

is not knowing when to get your, when your period is going to be coming.

So it could be.

You are pregnant and not knowing that's actually happened.

Um, so if you do chart your set, your temperatures, you can see a shift when you

obviate and you'll see the temperatures actually just shoot up and stay high.

So we can actually see that that's happening for, let's say if the

temperatures are higher for more than 16 to 17 days, we should probably be asking

that patient to take a pregnancy test and then referring them to a gynecologist.

Because at that point they probably are.

I mean nine times out of 10.

So she will, that book is, is really a must read.

And also I did write a guide a couple of years back as well.

That's on my website too.

It's really actually, it was written for my patients.

And then I just decided to put it out on, on Amazon, because it was something

that they could use as a reference and anybody who's undergoing fertility

treatment or thinking about it, or also working with an acupuncturist, there's

a ton of research in there that was, um, put together by the Abe forum and

a lot of good information for anybody going through fertility treatment.

Uh, and also some information on charting your temperatures in there.

Right.

I've had patients, some of them very compliant with charting,

their temperatures and some of them just not so good lately.

I've heard about, uh, thermometers that actually hook up to your

smartphone and chart this stuff.

Are you familiar with any of the.

Yeah, a lot of the patients will use apps and there are pros and cons to it.

I've had people have their history or erased and that's really frustrating.

So I'm kind of old school with the charting.

I still like the paper version.

I think it's great to actually bring to your practitioner and say, oh,

this is, this is what's going on.

Because when we have to flip through a phone, the screen gets cut off.

And then where's the first day.

It's actually more confusing for me to look like that rather, if they

could just keep the piece of paper by.

That they can actually save the temperatures in the thermometer.

And we're not asking them to do this forever.

I tell them at least like two to three months while, and

also on the chart that we.

I think on the latest version of the take charge of your fertility chart, there's

a section for acupuncture, so they can actually check off when they got treated

also what herbs they took when they had intercourse, many things like that.

So they can really just, um, can get a whole glimpse of what their symptoms are.

So it gives us a ton of information.

If we're seeing a lot of low temperatures and nothing happening,

it's just flat line then.

Nothing's going on, the ovulation is not happening.

Probably the adrenals are shot.

There's many things going on.

The kidney is not working as well as it should.

So it gives us so much information.

And if they're able to do that, it's really great.

And it could be frustrating sometimes when they're not seeing much change,

but we tell them, look, you know what?

It's, it's actually going to reveal to us a whole lot.

Maybe we need to modify your herbs.

Maybe we need to work integratively.

So there's, there's a lot of information we can glean.

Yeah, I can see how it would be helpful to in giving them a

glimpse over a period of time.

What kind of progress they've actually.

And they'll keep the charts.

I mean, I've had patients bring them in.

And in fact, this past week, and this was actually someone who had

hypothalamic amenorrhea, because she basically, she had an eating disorder.

And so she didn't have a period for her.

With Chinese medicine, actually, she was able to get pregnant naturally.

She had, um, within two months she had a period and actually

had a healthy pregnancy.

So it was wonderful.

And then came back for baby number two, within two months of taking blossom.

Again, I love that formula.

Um, she was pregnant again and her temperatures were sky high.

They were just looking great.

And she went to her doctor and they said, well, let's see, you know,

let's check your, your hormone.

Her her HCG pregnancy hormone level did not come back very high.

So that was the doctor was very concerned and said, I, not sure if

this is going to be a viable pregnancy.

So that was terrifying for her.

And she say, but I don't understand.

I'm when I tell you her pulse was amazing.

It just felt beautiful and slippery.

Perfect.

So I was as confused as she was.

So they actually told her that she'll probably have to terminate.

Cause it might be a tubal pregnancy, long story short.

She goes back for the ultrasound.

There is a healthy, viable embryo there.

The levels are perfect.

There's nothing wrong.

What I don't understand is sometimes, well, you know, we can look at

things and say, okay, she's still started charting our temperatures.

The temperatures were beautiful.

Had she listened to that advice and basically just gone in and

said, okay, she would have.

Ended up terminating her pregnancy, which I think was, is just pretty crazy.

So if we're looking at a number, that's one thing, but if we look

at the whole picture and everything that we do, it's just so powerful.

So if we can, you know, use all the tools we have the Pauls, she was

actually taking herbs, things like that.

Um, we're actually going to benefit our patients so much.

Yeah.

It is often very useful to them to have more data points than.

Just a Western test.

I mean, those Western tests can obviously be very, very helpful, but like you were

just saying there's other things that we can see that that can point out, Hey,

this person's actually doing pretty good.

Right.

All right.

And I mean, we, we can encourage them to and have, you know, say let's just, you

know, keep, keep charting a little bit.

They can keep charting until maybe even the second week into

the pregnancy, if they want to.

There's usually not much reason to continue after that.

But sometimes they just like seeing that it's reassuring, like, okay,

you know, when the temperature.

That you period is usually inevitably coming, but when the temperatures

keep climbing like that, that's usually a pregnancy and you could

see it as a tri phasic climb.

So, so it's great to affirm it.

Also, someone with PCLs who doesn't have regular cycles, they don't have

to take pregnancy test every single day and just drive themselves bonkers

because it's so frustrating to, um, for one spend the money on pregnancy

tasks and keep having to do it.

And it said just glancing at the temperatures and

saying, wow, That's great.

Maybe it took them two months to ovulate, but they ovulate it and, you know, we can

count 14 days from the day of ovulation.

That's usually when the period's going to come.

So it really does help a lot with the anxiety too.

Yeah.

Tell us a little bit about your podcast.

Um, yeah, it's something that I, I just have been very excited to do because

I really wanted to bring in other practitioners, other resources for

women who are struggling with PCOS and I wanted to reach women all over the world.

So that's really, the only way I can think of that would be the most effective

way that everybody could access.

Listening and really get this information.

And I guess I was probably coming from, you know, growing up in a

place where there wasn't a whole lot of resources there really.

I mean, we're really fortunate.

I, where I am now, I'm in a big city or there's a ton of, of resources and

acupuncturist and herbalist and all kinds of things, but not everybody has that.

So this is something that I started just about actually,

it's been exactly one week.

So as I've been out long and, um, it's just been really

exciting to bring on people.

I have so much knowledge.

Um, we have, uh, reproductive endocrinologists, we have gynecologist,

um, psychologist, and actually, you know, women's suffering from Pecos that

were able to overcome it naturally.

Yeah, so D just all kinds of resources.

So, and, um, actually all the podcasts are@pclspodcasts.com.

So I'm, I'm, uh, I'm going to also include a practitioner section as well, and some

helpful links for, for, uh, practitioners to give things to their patients as well.

So, terrific.

Really excited.

Yeah.

Well, I will put all of this on the show notes page.

So those of you listening, you find this and just head on over to the show notes

page, there'll be links to everything.

Farrah, is there anything else that you'd like to share with us

before we wind this down for the.

And I'm just really excited to talk about this because I feel like as

acupuncturists, we have such an opportunity to help all these women and

just really getting the word out that we, this is something we can treat.

We don't have to be afraid to, to work with us and you'll just

be giving them so much relief probably throughout their lives.

They'll be able to learn how to manage something that really was

insurmountable to them before.

Yeah.

And like you were saying earlier completely changed

the trajectory of their.

Right at even, I mean, even perhaps affecting future generations.

That's what I really think that this treatment does.

Yeah.

Wonderful.

Well, good luck with the new podcast and thanks for being on the show.