I sit down with artist, musician, butcher, and writer Jason Wachtelhausen. We talk about kosher meat, mindful bathing, Todos Santos, and quitting heroin. This episode is sponsored by the state of Missouri.

Follow Jason on Instagram at @dogmuseum_

New episodes every Tuesday—plus other stuff, as inspiration dictates.

Please like, subscribe, rate, and review. I don’t care—but also, I do.

If you'd like to show some support for this podcast and also get access to some extra stuff, you can visit my Patreon page here: https://www.patreon.com/onefjef

Email: onefjefpod@gmail.com

Instagram: @onefjef

Thank you for listening, please do it again, but louder this time.

Onefjef is produced, edited, and hosted by Jef Taylor (I also make the music).

Voice Message: Hey, Jeff. It's me.

Voice Message: I think I was inspired by your podcast to talk to you, but I'm

Voice Message: on my way to an event, so this is the next best thing.

Voice Message: Maybe.

Voice Message: Anyway, I finally listened to your second episode of your

Voice Message: podcast, and I thought it was interesting that Chris Casey Guy

Voice Message: is a real hoot and quite into the mind body energy situation,

Voice Message: which I've been thinking a little bit about, and I can tell

Voice Message: you more about that soon.

Voice Message: Anyway, what I wanted to tell you is you're my first friend

Voice Message: ever to tell me that you love me, and you mentioned that in

Voice Message: the podcast, and that's something I always think about

Voice Message: and tell people.

Voice Message: So I thought it was cool to hear you talk about it.

Voice Message: Love you.

Voice Message: Bye.

Jef: This is the third episode of onefjef.

Bing Bong: The number three is the first odd prime number.

Bing Bong: Many cultures consider it a symbol of harmony and balance.

Bing Bong: It also appears frequently in

Bing Bong: nature, such as in the structure

Bing Bong: of triangles.

Jef: About a month or two ago, I was

Jef: hanging out at a local bar right

Jef: down the street from me here in

Jef: Columbus, Ohio, called Dick's

Jef: Den.

Bing Bong: Dick's den is this iconic little

Bing Bong: dive bar in Columbus that's

Bing Bong: known for its live jazz and

Bing Bong: bluegrass.

Bing Bong: It's got a really cozy, wood paneled interior and a great

Bing Bong: selection of drinks.

Jef: There's a neon sign in the

Jef: window of Dick's den that says,

Jef: why not?

Jef: I love that.

Bing Bong: Today's guest is Jason Vallejo.

Bing Bong: Need Jason Waldhausen.

Bing Bong: When a guest is Jason Waldhausen.

Jef: I'm standing out in the patio talking to a friend of mine.

Jef: When I turned around and saw this guy dressed like a rock

Jef: star smoking a cigarette.

Jef: So I said, where'd you come from?

Jef: And he's like, from work, man, I'm a butcher.

Jef: And I was like, oh, my uncle was a butcher.

Jef: So we got to talking, and I

Jef: quickly realized that I'd

Jef: stumbled upon one of the more

Jef: interesting humans here in

Jef: Columbus, Ohio.

Bing Bong: Jason Wallhausen is a writer and artist based in Columbus, Ohio.

Bing Bong: He has contributed to magazines like Wired and Ready Made.

Bing Bong: He's a whole animal butcher and he's also a musician.

Jef: I feel like I could do four or five podcasts with Jason, and

Jef: he'd still have more to tell.

Jef: But I'm grateful that he was

Jef: willing to sit down and share

Jef: some of his story with me and

Jef: with you.

Jef: Again, I hope that you enjoy listening to this as much as

Jef: I've enjoyed making it.

Jef: Thank you for listening.

Jef: Thank you for being here.

Jef: Here's Jason.

Jef: How was that concert last night?

Jef: Was it good?

Jason: It was great.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah, it was definitely a good show.

Jef: Are there, like, old punk rockers?

Jason: They're up there with the very oldest.

Jason: They are, you know, icons or,

Jason: you know, originators of the

Jason: punk sound.

Jef: How old are they now?

Jason: Uh, older than me.

Jason: And I'm not young, so.

Jef: So, um, Jason, what's your last name?

Jef: I don't even know your last name.

Jason: My full name is Jason Norvan.

Jason: Wachtelhausen.

Jason: And my father was from Germany.

Jason: Right.

Jason: And, um, my mom was from Jamaica.

Jef: Oh, interesting.

Jason: But my father grew up here, you

Jason: know, since he was a baby in the

Jason: United States.

Jason: Um. Um, he loved black culture.

Jason: He was very interested in it and

Jason: impressed by it or something

Jason: like that.

Jason: And, um, my mom was just like a Jamaican hippie chick, and

Jason: somehow they got together, and now everyone thinks I'm

Jason: Dominican when they look at me.

Jef: I didn't think you were Dominican.

Jef: I had no idea.

Jason: Well, in New York, everyone does.

Jef: In New York, for sure.

Jef: Yeah, I could see that.

Jef: Uh, so you were born in New York?

Jason: No, I was born in Philadelphia.

Jef: Brothers or sisters?

Jason: Yes. I had five foster brothers and sisters.

Jason: Okay.

Jason: Wow.

Jason: And, uh, my brother.

Jason: Brother.

Jef: Your real brother and I.

Jason: Yeah. My father ended up in the,

Jason: uh, Navy and, uh, during

Jason: Vietnam.

Jason: A bunch of weird shit there I

Jason: won't get into, But, um, there

Jason: are some bar that when they were

Jason: in port or whatever you call it,

Jason: and my mom was like a bar chick

Jason: around there and played pool and

Jason: drank beers.

Jef: Right.

Jason: Costumes. So and, um, I remember when her telling me the story

Jason: and she said, uh, Jason, you know, that first night when I

Jason: met him, it was the most magical night of my life.

Jason: It was so wonderful.

Jason: And then I felt like I wrecked everything because I fucked him.

Jason: I knew I shouldn't have done

Jason: that because, guys, you know,

Jason: they're never going to come

Jason: back.

Jason: And then the next time he came back around, he did come back.

Jason: And, uh, they ended up being in love.

Jef: Right?

Jef: Right, right.

Jef: How long were they married?

Jef: Were they married forever?

Jef: Yes.

Jason: Well, until my father died.

Jef: Your father.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: They both wanted to have kids,

Jason: and they tried for forever to

Jason: have children, and it just

Jason: wasn't working.

Jason: Okay.

Jason: And, uh, when doctors several

Jason: times and the doctor said, you

Jason: know, you, uh, there's nothing

Jason: wrong with you or with either of

Jason: you.

Jason: Yeah.

Jason: It's just, you know, not happening.

Jason: Whatever.

Jason: So just keep trying.

Jason: And.

Jason: But eventually they, uh, took in

Jason: some foster kids and raised were

Jason: raising them as their children,

Jason: and they they wanted to adopt

Jason: those kids, but the father

Jason: wouldn't allow them to be

Jason: adopted because he didn't want

Jason: his kids being raised by a white

Jason: guy.

Jef: Oh, interesting.

Jef: Different times.

Jef: Different times.

Jason: Yeah. So then all of a sudden, out of the blue, my mom gets

Jason: pregnant with me.

Jason: And, uh, one year and six months to the day later, she gives

Jason: birth to my brother.

Jason: This June sixteenth and December sixteenth.

Jason: So with the five foster kids and the two of us, uh, it had been a

Jason: really long time since they'd been on a date.

Jason: One night, Ray Charles was playing at this dinner theater.

Jason: They both loved Ray Charles.

Jef: Sure. Who doesn't?

Jason: Right.

Jason: So they said, fuck it.

Jason: We're going to get a babysitter to watch the kids.

Jason: We're going to go.

Jason: It's this girl who's babysitting Babysit it Saturdays before.

Jason: And, um, she, uh, she was incredibly mean.

Jason: And, um, as soon as they leave,

Jason: she starts putting on makeup,

Jason: and it's like, you kids better

Jason: be good.

Jason: I'll be back in about five hours or something like that.

Jason: Um, as she's walking out her older brother, they lived right

Jason: in the house next door.

Jason: Yeah.

Jason: It's like coming out and confronts her about it, and

Jason: she's adamant, and she leaves and he, um, decides he's going

Jason: to take over for her and stay.

Jason: Anyway, that night, um, the twins were playing with matches

Jason: and they were burning little pieces of paper, and they were

Jason: hiding the paper inside this cracker box that they had eaten

Jason: the whole thing of.

Jason: And, uh, we were pretty fucking poor at the time, right?

Jason: That was a big deal.

Jason: And, um, they hid all the evidence under my parents bed,

Jason: and the box started to burn.

Jef: Right?

Jason: And anyway, the house caught on fire and the fire was like, uh,

Jason: you know, like, caught the next two rowhouses on fire as well.

Jason: And, I mean, it was we lost everything.

Jason: Everything.

Jason: I remember this so clearly.

Jason: I remember, like, remember the dream I was having.

Jason: I was asleep on the couch

Jason: downstairs, right by the front

Jason: door.

Jason: And this sort of looked like an alien or something like that.

Jason: It was a fireman picked me up off the couch and took me

Jason: outside, sat me on the sidewalk and ran back inside.

Jason: And I was like, I don't know if you remember Time Bandits.

Jef: Yeah, yeah.

Jason: Okay. So that in the end, the

Jason: very end of the film, when the

Jason: guys, kids, parents blow up and

Jason: all the fire trucks are going

Jason: by, it's just it feels so much

Jason: like.

Jason: Exactly like how I felt.

Jason: I was in my footie pajamas and everything like that, and, um, I

Jason: had no idea what was going on.

Jason: And I saw we had this white

Jason: Toyota hatchback and, like,

Jason: skidded around the corner and

Jason: like, you know, you could hear

Jason: it and everything, like show on

Jason: TV.

Jason: I felt like and it like screeched to a halt and before

Jason: it was even totally stopped, my mom's door opened and she, like,

Jason: jumped out of the car and boom!

Jason: Just like straight landed on the concrete, completely passed out.

Jason: My dad jumped out of the car and ran straight towards the door

Jason: and almost got like in a physical altercation with this

Jason: fireman that was there trying to get into the house.

Jef: Right.

Jason: And as that was going on, the dude babysitter came out of the

Jason: house, literally his sweater, his hair stuff was smoking, and

Jason: he had my little brother.

Jef: Jesus.

Jason: Who was like, you know, no years old.

Jef: Right.

Jef: Right.

Jason: And, uh, I always think about if that girl had stayed.

Jef: Was it in Philly?

Jason: Yeah.

Jef: Wow. So what'd your parents do?

Jef: Your dad was in the war.

Jason: Yeah. He continued to work for

Jason: the government for the rest of

Jason: his life.

Jef: All right.

Jef: And your mom.

Jason: Is. She ran a daycare out of the house.

Jef: Um, sounds like she loved.

Jason: For.

Jef: Years.

Jason: She was amazing with kids.

Jason: Really amazing with kids.

Jason: Yeah.

Jason: And she spanked one of them on

Jason: the legs because she pulled a

Jason: knife on someone on the school

Jason: bus.

Jef: The kid did.

Jason: The kid.

Jef: Right?

Jason: Yeah. And the kid called the cops.

Jef: Mhm. Can't do that.

Jason: My mom's not allowed.

Jason: Allowed around kids anymore, basically.

Jef: So do you guys get along?

Jef: You get along with your parents?

Jason: My dad was the best friend I ever had in my life.

Jef: No kidding.

Jef: I mean, I love that.

Jason: Ever, hands down.

Jason: Like, it was weird.

Jason: Like, my mom and my little

Jason: brother are just exactly the

Jason: same.

Jason: Like, the exact same type of people.

Jason: They're both, like, explosive tempers and, like, full of love

Jason: and just and, like, wonder if a big balloon can float you up.

Jason: Like, they have a lot of weird.

Jef: Fat.

Jason: Weird stuff.

Jef: Do you get along with them or not?

Jason: Not so much.

Jason: Get along famously.

Jason: I mean, like we.

Jason: I mean, it's that sort of like, opposites attract thing, right?

Jason: You know?

Jason: I could totally understand, like, why my dad loved my mom

Jason: and why I understand why I love my brother so much.

Jason: I mean, he's like the total flip side of what I would be.

Jef: Where's your brother now?

Jef: Is he.

Jef: Is he around here or is he.

Jason: He's in Vermont.

Jef: Vermont.

Jason: All right.

Jason: Yeah. All right.

Jef: When you were a kid, what did you think you were going to do

Jef: when you got older?

Jef: Did you have any idea?

Jason: Go to MIT.

Jason: Oh, really?

Jason: Yeah.

Jason: That was since I was a little kid.

Jason: That was what I wanted to do.

Jef: To do what?

Jef: Did you have a goal after that, or was it just.

Jef: I want to go to particle physics.

Jason: No.

Jason: Really interested in, like, the idea of CERN.

Jason: Like that.

Jason: That was like actually going to happen.

Jason: And they were deciding where it was going to be built and

Jason: everything like that.

Jason: That was in like eighty four or something like that.

Jason: And like I was so like up to date.

Jason: On.

Jason: And stuff.

Jason: And then I went to Canada and went to school there.

Jason: They're okay.

Jason: School in Canada was like something like in that summer.

Jason: Like, by the end of the summer, he just couldn't wait for school

Jason: to start again.

Jason: No shit.

Jason: It was so perfectly administered in so many sensible decisions

Jason: that you don't see here.

Jason: Um, it was amazing.

Jason: It was one of the best chapters of my entire life.

Jason: And, um, I moved back to the United States.

Jason: I ended up going to four

Jason: different high schools and

Jason: dropped out when I was in

Jason: eleventh grade.

Jason: I've never been so hurt and like when I lived in Canada.

Jason: Yeah, like everyone else in the entire world until recently, I

Jason: thought like, oh my God, I'm going back to America, the

Jason: coolest country in the world, where everything's perfect.

Jason: Imagine how good school is going to be there.

Jason: And it was the biggest letdown I've ever experienced.

Jason: I wish that I would have stuck it out and knew obviously what I

Jason: know now, that he'd do that shit for the piece of paper.

Jason: And, um, but learning, you know,

Jason: in your own personal knowledge,

Jason: is something you take on

Jason: yourself as a pastime or

Jason: whatever the hell you want to

Jason: call it.

Jef: Perspective is tricky.

Jef: Yeah. So you drop out of high school and then what do you

Jef: where do you end up doing?

Jef: Where do you end up doing after you drop out?

Jason: Yeah. Well, I was trying to figure that out.

Jason: I moved into, um, a Krishna temple in Berkeley.

Jason: No shit.

Jason: Yeah, for about half a year or something like that.

Jason: And I've always been interested in religion.

Jason: Okay.

Jason: And, um, not I. I'm not interested in following one.

Jason: I don't I don't believe I do believe in God.

Jason: I do not believe in the idea of religion or spirituality.

Jef: Not sure.

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: And, um, but I find that, uh, like television commercials.

Jason: Religion is like something that

Jason: by studying it, it gives me a

Jason: lot of insight into human beings

Jason: in general.

Jason: Right.

Jason: And so I've always been really

Jason: interested in it for that

Jason: reason.

Jason: And, uh, I went there and the guy who ran the place was called

Jason: Harry Valas an awesome guy.

Jason: I told him that was, you know,

Jason: I'm not planning on becoming a

Jason: devotee of this religion or

Jason: anything like that, but I'd love

Jason: to live here and, you know, take

Jason: it seriously and work with you

Jason: guys and just see what you're,

Jason: you know.

Jason: Sure, sure, sure.

Jason: Whatever.

Jason: And, um, he was super open to it.

Jason: And it was a wonderful experience.

Jef: This was in the nineties, early nineties.

Jason: Early nineties.

Jason: Yeah. But I tell you, it was in California.

Jason: Sure.

Jason: I was surprised to find that even within kind of like a

Jason: religious context or whatever these people were, still, it was

Jason: more important to them what other people thought of them

Jason: than what they were actually doing with them.

Jef: And you think this is a California specific thing?

Jef: I feel like that happens everywhere.

Jason: It happens everywhere.

Jason: But man, I tell you, I've experienced more of it in

Jason: California than anywhere else.

Jason: Interesting.

Jef: Interesting.

Jef: Did you become a follower or did

Jef: you just kind of like, how did

Jef: that.

Jason: You know, we'd wake up sometime.

Jason: I don't know, between like three thirty and five in the morning

Jason: and do a bathing ritual.

Jason: And people always tried to get

Jason: there on time because the later

Jason: you were, the colder the water

Jason: was for.

Jef: Your.

Jason: five a m bathing ritual.

Jef: What's the bathing ritual?

Jef: Is it just you take a bath or.

Jason: So I think like a lot of

Jason: religions, there's a lot of

Jason: ritualistic shit that happens

Jason: here.

Jason: There's not much to it other than getting cleaned up.

Jef: But are you bathing yourself?

Jef: But if you're.

Jason: Doing it with the intent of, you know, like, whatever.

Jef: Like a mindful bathing.

Jason: Yes, that's a good way of putting it.

Jason: A mindful bathing.

Jason: Yeah.

Jason: We would make prasadam, which was dinner.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: But again.

Jef: There's a fancy word for it.

Jason: Ritual.

Jason: But it's not just the word this,

Jason: you know, basically this you put

Jason: your full intent into making it,

Jason: uh, whatever.

Jason: As close to divine as possible.

Jason: And if you offer the food to a god, they'll eat it.

Jason: But because they're on a

Jason: different plane, the food

Jason: remains.

Jason: But now it's blessed and it's become prasadam, not dinner.

Jason: Krishna's throughout the world aren't all what most people

Jason: expect here, and the ones in the west coast for the most part,

Jason: aren't the same as what you guys have experienced out here.

Jef: I mean, yeah, I mean, that's the thing with religion.

Jef: Every single, even Christianity

Jef: has got eighteen thousand

Jef: different kinds.

Jef: And everybody's like, my kind is the right kind and your kinds,

Jef: the dumb fucking kind heathen.

Jef: Right.

Jef: So it's funny that that actually happens with accretions as well,

Jef: although they're probably not calling each other heathens.

Jef: Right.

Jason: I don't know.

Jason: They're calling each other, whatever it is, it's just their

Jason: word for heathen.

Jef: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason: You know, and.

Jef: So I remember when I was in college, the Christian.

Jef: This is where you can go and get the vegan free vegan dinner.

Jef: That was the big thing.

Jef: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason: We used to go and feed the bums

Jason: in people's park and before we

Jason: ate.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: It was cool.

Jason: And that's.

Jason: That's where I learned to love cooking.

Jef: Oh. That's cool.

Jef: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jef: So you leave the Krishna thing.

Jef: Um. Any particular reason you just got tired of it?

Jason: Yeah. I mean, I was young, I was sixteen, seventeen at the time.

Jason: I was just itching to move on.

Jef: Sure.

Jason: Someplace.

Jef: I get that.

Jason: I don't know exactly where I went from there.

Jason: I went up to Sacramento for a while.

Jason: Oh, and then up to Santa Rosa.

Jason: Did you like Northern California?

Jason: I spent a lot of time drinking on a railroad track up there

Jason: with some wonderful people.

Jef: Like you were.

Jef: We run the rails or just drink it on the tracks.

Jason: Just drinking on.

Jef: The on the tracks.

Jef: And the train comes.

Jef: You get off the tracks.

Jef: Of course, then you get y on the tracks.

Jef: Was that just a place people drank?

Jason: It's a classic place to drink.

Jason: I mean.

Jef: I've never drank on the railroad tracks.

Jef: I feel like I should.

Jason: I've never walked over to the tracks.

Jef: I've walked on the tracks.

Jef: I've just never drank on them.

Jason: No groups of people there drinking.

Jef: Uh, not that I've ever seen.

Jef: No, but, you know, maybe that's a different time.

Jason: Maybe.

Jef: Yeah. Could be.

Jef: There's a lot of YouTube videos now of, like, people that you

Jef: can learn how to actually ride the rails and, like, sneak onto

Jef: a train and ride all the way to.

Jef: Yeah, like like like a legit hobo.

Jason: Done some hobo.

Jef: Oh, no. Shit. Oh, we'll get to that.

Jason: Anyway, I eventually ended up back in Ohio.

Jason: I came back to Columbus.

Jef: Okay, but you had family here still?

Jason: Yes. My mom and my brother were still here.

Jef: Okay. So you were in Ohio before.

Jason: After Toronto, we moved to Marion while we were having a

Jason: house built in the fancy new suburb of Gahanna.

Jason: We had one of, like, the first eight houses.

Jason: So I lived in this, like, fully developed development.

Jef: Right?

Jef: Right, right.

Jason: No one else in it.

Jef: Right, right.

Jason: For a while.

Jason: And my mom was.

Jason: And she went crazy after my dad died.

Jason: I mean, they were really, really in love.

Jason: Right, right.

Jason: And, um.

Jef: What's your dad die of?

Jason: Mysterious circumstances.

Jef: What do you think?

Jason: I think I don't think about it that much.

Jef: All right, fair enough.

Jason: That much?

Jason: But I will say this.

Jason: I did, uh, have an offer from a

Jason: married couple that had put out

Jason: this UFO magazine since, like,

Jason: the sixties or something like

Jason: that.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: And, uh, they said that they

Jason: would pay for me to go and do

Jason: some research into how my dad

Jason: died.

Jef: Oh, really?

Jason: I'll tell you that.

Jef: They think that he might have been abducted by an alien.

Jef: That's awesome.

Jef: Well, I mean, maybe he's in a better place.

Jef: Maybe he's up there.

Jef: Maybe he's flying around.

Jason: Yeah.

Jef: You know who the fuck knows, man?

Jef: Yeah.

Jef: Your mom might find him yet.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah, I imagine they'll bump into each other again.

Jef: Yeah, I think everybody does.

Jef: Right?

Jason: I don't know, I hope not everybody.

Jef: Well, I mean, I think.

Jef: Yeah. Anyway, so you're back in Ohio.

Jason: Between going to New York every

Jason: other, you know, month and

Jason: living in Columbus and it being

Jason: the nineties and being in a band

Jason: that played its stashes all the

Jason: time.

Jef: Okay, I didn't know.

Jef: How'd you get in the band?

Jason: I don't know, I've been basically been kind of a punk

Jason: rocker my whole life.

Jason: Okay.

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: Anyway, between all that stuff I got on heroin.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: And, uh, I was a heroin addict for a few years.

Jef: How old were you when you got introduced to.

Jef: To the heroin.

Jason: Um, nineteen. Twenty nineteen?

Jason: No. Yeah. No.

Jason: Okay.

Jason: Maybe.

Jason: Eighteen.

Jason: Nineteen.

Jef: Do you remember who introduced you to it or.

Jason: Yeah. William Burroughs.

Jef: I mean, but so.

Jason: I sought it out.

Jason: Nobody was.

Jef: Like, oh, so you're.

Jason: Reading.

Jef: Burroughs books and you're like.

Jason: Everyone I idolized was a fucking heroin addict.

Jef: Sure, sure.

Jef: That's how I got into weed.

Jef: But.

Jef: Yeah.

Jef: Yeah.

Jef: Um, yeah.

Jef: I just didn't take the further step.

Jef: Yeah.

Jef: So you found somebody you could

Jef: just find somebody who would

Jef: was.

Jason: At that time.

Jason: Yeah.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: And that rock and roll scene in

Jason: Columbus, Ohio, it was pretty

Jason: easy.

Jef: And did you do it by yourself or did you do it with.

Jason: All the time?

Jason: I've.

Jef: No. But the first time we're talking about, like, the first

Jef: time you get it from somebody.

Jef: Do you remember?

Jason: Yeah. The very peculiar.

Jason: Let's see.

Jason: The very first time I ever did it.

Jason: I think the very first time I

Jason: did it, I was probably by

Jason: myself.

Jason: And then usually after that, I was with my girlfriend, who

Jason: eventually became my first wife.

Jef: Okay. So you get this heroin?

Jef: It's what, black tar?

Jef: Or was it like powder?

Jason: Okay, that's what I was going to say.

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: The first time I really remember coming alive from the experience

Jason: and having the first.

Jef: Being like, oh.

Jason: I'm gonna be a heroin addict feeling.

Jef: Like.

Jason: I was visiting some friends, uh, in San Francisco, my ex-wife and

Jason: I, and, um, they got this black tar stuff and used an eyedropper

Jason: method where you heat it up and put it in an eyedropper and drop

Jason: that in your nose.

Jef: Right.

Jason: And, uh.

Jason: Pretty fucking fun.

Jef: I mean, better than shooting it up needles, like.

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: No, no, no it's not.

Jef: I mean, better in my in my mind

Jef: because I'm terrified of

Jef: needles, but.

Jef: Yeah.

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: I can understand that.

Jef: Right?

Jason: It's all any way you're doing it.

Jason: It's, uh.

Jason: You know what?

Jason: I've.

Jason: I have friends to this day who are people that every once in a

Jason: while, three or four times a year, they'll do heroin.

Jason: They'll shoot up most of them,

Jason: sniff it if they're going to do

Jason: it now.

Jason: But if you can be that kind of

Jason: person, I highly recommend

Jason: heroin.

Jef: Sure, sure, if you can be that fun, if you can be that kind of

Jef: person, It's a thing, right?

Jason: Yeah. And I've been I quit smoking.

Jason: I've quit everything in my life, including heroin, without ever

Jason: going to any kind of program or anything like that.

Jef: Right, right, right.

Jason: I've quit everything.

Jason: But heroin is the only one that ever.

Jason: I'm still scared of.

Jef: That, cause, yeah.

Jason: Like, yeah, like, oh, I would still, like, love to fucking get

Jason: high on heroin again.

Jason: And I would if I knew I could do it without any repercussions.

Jason: Repercussions?

Jef: Sure.

Jason: I don't feel that way about PCP.

Jason: Oh, you know what I mean?

Jef: Like there's another one we can dig into.

Jef: So what does that look like?

Jef: Like, is it you're good for a while.

Jef: Like you're using it and you think you're kind of okay.

Jef: And then you realize at a certain point it's using you or

Jef: something to this effect, right?

Jason: Yeah. Whatever.

Jason: You could slap whatever kind of cliche in there you want.

Jef: Right, right.

Jason: It's going to be basically true.

Jef: You're calling me out on that?

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: No. Yeah, it's going to be true.

Jason: I mean, they're all that's really is, uh, it's all there is

Jason: to it, you know, it's nothing.

Jason: You know, eventually the lights all go out.

Jason: Eventually you take something

Jason: from a friend or you know you

Jason: shouldn't have.

Jason: And I've never, ever in my life been a thief on any level.

Jason: Sure.

Jason: And that's something that, uh, you know, I never outright stole

Jason: somebody's guitar and sold it or something like that, but I

Jason: certainly did things where I knew I was taking advantage that

Jason: I'll never forgive myself for.

Jef: Just to get the drug.

Jef: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Jef: How often were you using when you were, like, in the throes?

Jef: How much?

Jef: How much did you use?

Jason: Three times a day?

Jef: Huh?

Jef: How'd you get off the heroin?

Jef: You were on a couple of years, you said.

Jason: Yeah. So this one was there.

Jef: Was there a moment that.

Jason: Yes, there was a moment.

Jef: Of course.

Jef: There's always a moment.

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: There was.

Jason: Well, things were getting bad

Jason: generally, you know, in a lot of

Jason: ways.

Jason: And I wasn't very fun.

Jason: Cool person anymore.

Jef: Sure.

Jason: Just a lot of my friends were hurt and upset.

Jef: Eventually the drug ends up controlling you.

Jason: It's.

Jef: Yeah, another cliche, but it's.

Jason: It's true.

Jason: That's what happens.

Jef: Right.

Jason: This guy who was one of my best friends growing up who went his

Jason: father went crazy.

Jason: And when we were young.

Jason: And the same thing happened to to John, my friend.

Jef: What happened?

Jason: He went fucking crazy.

Jason: And, uh, I mean, crazy, like, stopped using electricity.

Jason: Didn't believe in money anymore.

Jason: And his landlord wasn't super

Jason: cool with either one of those

Jason: things.

Jef: The money one I think is probably the one that's the

Jef: difficult one for the landlord.

Jef: But the landlord.

Jef: Yeah, right.

Jason: He moved back in with his mom,

Jason: started making his own chocolate

Jason: bars.

Jason: Yeah.

Jef: Gotta have a hobby, right?

Jason: The last time I, uh, heard

Jason: anything about him, his sister,

Jason: who was never super fond of me,

Jason: gave me a call to let me know

Jason: that he had stolen his mom's car

Jason: in Florida.

Jason: And the last thing they heard was he was driving to New York

Jason: to kill me.

Jef: Wow.

Jason: Yeah. So this guy.

Jef: Right.

Jason: Before he went crazy and wanted

Jason: to kill me, called my mom and my

Jason: brother who had relocated to

Jason: Missouri.

Jef: Because he was, like, worried about you.

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: He's like, dude, he's fucked up.

Jason: It's like.

Jef: Because he was.

Jason: Not him.

Jef: Anymore.

Jef: Right, right.

Jason: You gotta.

Jef: Which is ironic because he ended up going crazy himself and

Jef: trying to kill you.

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: So, I.

Jef: Mean, life's a long road.

Jason: Yeah, but the moral of that one's obvious.

Jason: Do drugs?

Jef: Is that the moral?

Jef: Let me think about that.

Jef: We'll leave that to the listeners to decide what the

Jef: moral of that one is.

Jef: Uh.

Jason: My mom and my brother.

Jef: Brother?

Jason: Exactly what my mom and my brother would do.

Jason: They didn't say anything.

Jason: And they drove from Missouri to my house ten minutes after they

Jason: got off the phone with John.

Jef: Because they had no idea.

Jason: No.

Jef: Right.

Jason: They showed up, and my brother came in with a, like, blackjack

Jason: or whatever, ready to knock me out if he had to.

Jason: They didn't know if I'd be crazed, like trying to fight.

Jason: And I was like, yo, you guys are right.

Jason: I gotta do it.

Jason: I gotta do it.

Jason: I probably would have done it myself if I had the cash.

Jason: I need about two hundred bucks.

Jason: That'll get me enough heroin to for to get us to Missouri.

Jason: And then I won't have any when we get there.

Jason: Okay, so let's do it.

Jason: So just left everything in the house.

Jason: My mom got me some heroin.

Jason: Oh, good.

Jason: Mom.

Jef: And tearing up a little bit.

Jason: Actually, we drove out there,

Jason: and I didn't sleep for, like,

Jason: eleven days.

Jason: It was.

Jason: It was.

Jef: Bad. Yeah. Everything is.

Jef: I've seen the movies.

Jason: Yeah, but there's there's really no explanation for.

Jason: I mean, you cannot describe it

Jason: to someone who hasn't gone

Jason: through it.

Jason: It's it's a weird kind of hell.

Jason: But on the eleventh day, I was laying on the floor and I was

Jason: reading this book.

Jason: I was like some old hard boiled detective novel.

Jef: Right, right.

Jason: Kind of novel.

Jason: And all of a sudden, I noticed

Jason: the book was on my chest and I

Jason: was like, oh, my God, I just

Jason: fell asleep.

Jason: And I looked at the clock and

Jason: I'd been asleep for like forty

Jason: five minutes.

Jason: And I have never been so happy in my life.

Jason: I was like, that meant like, I'm beating it.

Jason: This is like really happening.

Jason: Right, right, right.

Jason: I'm not gonna feel like that forever, actually.

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: Sleeping. And I was really,

Jason: like, overflowing with a kind of

Jason: joy, and the phone rang at that

Jason: exact minute and I picked it up

Jason: and, uh, it was my friend

Jason: Jasper, and I was like, oh my

Jason: God, Jasper, you're not gonna

Jason: believe it.

Jason: I just want to sleep.

Jason: This is the greatest day of my life.

Jason: And Jasper was like, uh, yeah, Mike Dean killed J. Hit last

Jason: night, and that was the guy I.

Jef: Was.

Jason: Talking about earlier.

Jason: Yeah.

Jef: So you quit the heroin?

Jef: Good job.

Jef: You're in Missouri.

Jason: Forever.

Jef: For how long were you in Missouri?

Jason: Oh, no, I mean, I quit heroin for forever.

Jef: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason: I like and I literally, at one

Jason: point tried it again to make

Jason: sure I was, like, not addicted

Jason: to it.

Jef: That's a really.

Jef: That's a ballsy.

Jason: Move. Yeah. And I just sniffed it, but, um, and I had a blast

Jason: and I fucking the next day.

Jason: I didn't feel like any, like,

Jason: going back or whatever, but I

Jason: knew if I did it, I was like

Jason: that.

Jason: That one time will be enough.

Jef: Yeah. Yeah. Well, good for you.

Jason: Missouri did change my life.

Jason: Not just getting off heroin.

Jason: Uh, but I got a job in a chicken factory.

Jef: Okay, okay.

Jason: The first chicken factory I ever worked in was called Petit Jean.

Jef: Like a butcher.

Jef: Kind of like a, what do they call it?

Jef: Slaughterhouse.

Jason: As. As an actual butcher.

Jason: Now I realize how far that is.

Jason: But yes, it deals with.

Jason: Yeah.

Jason: Slaughtering and breaking down meat, basically.

Jason: Right.

Jason: But, um.

Jason: Yeah, I got a job, uh, at a chicken plant, peeling tenders.

Jason: My thumbnails turned black and

Jason: fell off, and, uh, the work was

Jason: fucking insane, and I felt like

Jason: I deserved it or something like

Jason: that.

Jason: Kind of.

Jason: And, uh.

Jef: How old are you?

Jason: Uh, nineteen, I think.

Jef: Right, right.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: And at some point there, I can't remember if it was before this

Jason: or after that.

Jason: But at some point in California, I married my girlfriend Laura.

Jason: All right.

Jason: So. And she was there, you know, she had gotten off heroin.

Jef: She came with you to get off the heroin with you.

Jef: Oh, okay.

Jef: That's an interesting part.

Jef: She was on.

Jef: She goes, did you get her on heroin?

Jason: It kind of just happened organically.

Jason: I was I was never like, hey, you are married.

Jef: You are married.

Jef: You kind of got to do this, you know?

Jef: I mean.

Jason: Yeah, I don't know.

Jason: We did.

Jason: Yeah.

Jef: Those couples were.

Jason: She was just a heroin addict type of person.

Jason: Regardless, she ended up staying on it and doing a lot of fucked

Jason: up things, but, uh.

Jason: Whatever.

Jef: Right.

Jason: Um, but the chicken factory, man, that that was amazing.

Jason: Amazing.

Jason: And it's amazing to me that I could handle it, but I moved on

Jason: from there to a larger chicken factory in Buffalo, Missouri.

Jason: Okay.

Jason: And then I moved on to the

Jason: granddaddy turkey factory in

Jason: Springfield.

Jef: Oh, your career's taken off.

Jef: Yeah. Yeah.

Jason: And at that point, I was

Jason: drinking two bottles of gin a

Jason: day.

Jef: Oh.

Jason: To to fit in.

Jef: I guess there was a lot of

Jef: drinking going on at the chicken

Jef: factory.

Jason: Yeah. There was.

Jason: Missouri also is like, uh, I've been a lot of places I. And I

Jason: never really thought you could actually hate a place.

Jason: Especially when it's so beautiful as Missouri.

Jason: But there's something wrong with it there.

Jason: It's like it makes people into

Jason: weird, bitter, pinched up husks

Jason: of people.

Jef: Interesting.

Jef: I never heard that.

Jef: Well, I mean, I know a few people from Missouri.

Jef: They don't.

Jef: I mean, I'm sure there's exceptions, but.

Jef: Yeah, if you stay, I guess these people.

Jason: Know there are people in Saint Louis and stuff like that.

Jason: Yeah, really.

Jason: I guess what I'm talking about is the Ozarks and that southern.

Jef: Right?

Jef: Right, right right right, right.

Jason: Part of it I've never seen like, this level of, like, willful

Jason: ignorance and just, you know, like girls had, like, genital

Jason: warts down to their ankles until you explain to them that, like,

Jason: you can just go to the doctor and they just never knew.

Jason: It's fucking it's seriously sad.

Jef: Right, right, right.

Jef: That's truly a little bit of a little bit of like sex education

Jef: or something like explaining down to your ankles, though.

Jef: That's got to be a long like,

Jef: I've never heard of that shit

Jef: before.

Jason: The specific girl I'm thinking of was one of the smartest

Jason: people I met in Missouri.

Jef: And she's the one who has the

Jef: genital warts down to the

Jef: ankles.

Jason: That she had had them.

Jason: You know, she.

Jason: Yeah, that had happened to her.

Jason: And because she just didn't

Jason: know, like she said, that I had

Jason: no idea.

Jef: So smart in some ways.

Jef: Not smart in other ways.

Jef: Right.

Jason: Well, ignorant.

Jason: You know what I mean?

Jason: Smart but ignorant.

Jason: You know you can't put the facts together.

Jason: I guess if you don't have the

Jason: facts, no matter how smart you

Jason: are.

Jef: I mean, I'd be like, why the

Jef: fuck are there warts all over my

Jef: pussy?

Jason: But she was.

Jason: She just thought, like everyone else there does is there's

Jason: something wrong with her.

Jef: Specifically a lot of genital warts in Missouri then?

Jef: Yeah, yeah.

Jef: Like, is it like.

Jef: Of course.

Jef: Duh.

Jef: Yeah.

Jef: They used to have it on the license plate.

Jef: The genital wart state, I think.

Jason: You know, they also right around the corner from where we lived

Jason: was Macks Creek.

Jason: Awesome softball team.

Jef: All right.

Jason: But the highest, um, incest rate in the country.

Jason: Wow.

Jason: Dead.

Jason: Seriously?

Jason: Basically, the town is a family, and they got busted because

Jason: there's a police station there or something like that.

Jason: They changed a federal law because these guys, like ninety

Jason: eight percent of the income for the entire town, was coming from

Jason: the speed trap that they set up and just giving people tickets.

Jef: There's a lot of these in Ohio, too.

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: Yeah. Well, this was I don't

Jason: know exactly how that scam works

Jason: or whatever, but it was the

Jason: entire town and they were all

Jason: related and they had a great

Jason: softball team.

Jef: So this episode is sponsored by the state of Missouri.

Jef: Go for the incest.

Jef: Stay for the genital warts.

Jason: And anyway, the whole thing that

Jason: happened there was I started

Jason: working on Saturdays doing that

Jason: job where I'd hook the freshly

Jason: dead turkeys and they'd spray

Jason: out shit onto my neck or chin

Jason: usually.

Jason: But I was doing that because

Jason: this guy had a white blazer, uh,

Jason: that he would sell me pretty

Jason: cheap.

Jason: And my wife's birthday was coming up.

Jef: Okay?

Jason: And, uh, I was like, oh, that's so cool.

Jason: It'll be perfect.

Jason: You know, and, uh, I did it, you know, worked through the whole

Jason: summer or whatever the hell it was and, uh, got the car and

Jason: everything and brought it home on her birthday and, uh, drove

Jason: it home from work or whatever.

Jason: Yeah.

Jason: And, uh, she walked out of the house, and I was, like, handed

Jason: her the keys, and she was like, oh, my God, this is so perfect

Jason: because I'm leaving you.

Jason: And literally left that night.

Jef: Took the car.

Jason: Took the car, took my dog.

Jef: Jesus Christ, dude, I would

Jef: like, did you ever think you

Jef: can't have it if you're leaving

Jef: me?

Jef: This is not like.

Jason: It's not something I would think, right?

Jason: I mean, I love things like, I like having shit around, but I

Jason: don't really care about things when something like that

Jason: happens, I was.

Jef: Yeah, right.

Jef: Fair enough.

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: But, uh, pissed off about it now.

Jef: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Jef: Hindsight.

Jef: Hindsight.

Jef: Yeah, yeah.

Jason: So as a result of that, I decided that Missouri just had

Jason: too many bad memories for me.

Jason: Sure.

Jef: Like genital warts and the.

Jason: Yeah.

Jef: Right.

Jef: Time to go.

Jason: From Missouri to Minneapolis.

Jason: Moved in with a couple of old friends.

Jason: Uh, from here, from Columbus.

Jason: Okay.

Jason: I continued, uh, working in

Jason: meat, and I ended up managing a

Jason: Whole Foods meat department for

Jason: a while.

Jason: And then I moved on to this place called The Wedge.

Jason: That was like, uh, the biggest

Jason: food co-op in the United States

Jason: until, you know, two thousand or

Jason: something like that in the

Jason: sixties.

Jason: It had been there consistently

Jason: super famous place, like, uh,

Jason: Prince's wife shopped there all

Jason: the time.

Jason: Tiny Tim in his last days was

Jason: like one of my main kind of

Jason: clients.

Jason: No shit.

Jason: We.

Jason: Yeah.

Jason: Discusses diet a lot.

Jason: And his wife continued, uh, you

Jason: know, coming in after he died

Jason: and everything.

Jef: That's crazy.

Jason: Laura Dern would come in, Uh, I

Jason: remember Fugazi came in one

Jason: time.

Jason: That was pretty awesome.

Jason: So, yeah, people like it was a pretty famous place.

Jason: It was a Minnesota or whatever.

Jason: I got a girlfriend who worked

Jason: there named Sarah, and, uh, she

Jason: had studied Spanish stuff,

Jason: culture and language her entire

Jason: life, and she wanted to go to

Jason: Guatemala.

Jason: And we decided, okay, let's do that.

Jason: So we saved up for whatever a while, and we put away maybe ten

Jason: grand or something like that.

Jason: Okay, so we flew.

Jason: It was the first time I'd had money again in a while.

Jason: And, uh, we flew my mom out to Isla mujeres, which is a little

Jason: island off the coast of Cancun.

Jason: You're flying to Cancun?

Jason: It's not a Cancun type place.

Jason: It's.

Jason: It used to be wonderful.

Jason: I don't know what it's like now.

Jason: Right.

Jason: We partied there with her for an unforgettable week.

Jason: And, uh, then from there, we just started.

Jason: Sarah and I just started

Jason: traveling south and ended up

Jason: going through, um, you know, the

Jason: rest of Mexico, through Belize,

Jason: Ease.

Jason: And, uh, then from Punta Gorda,

Jason: Belize, we took a boat, uh, to

Jason: Livingston, Guatemala.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: It's probably where, like, ninety percent of the black

Jason: population of Guatemala lives.

Jason: Okay.

Jason: And, uh, it's been about six months there.

Jason: And then from there, we moved to Guatemala City for a while.

Jason: And then from there we went to Todos Santos.

Jason: And Todos Santos is, uh, on the west coast of Guatemala, way up

Jason: in the mountains, nine thousand two hundred feet, and lived

Jason: there for about a year.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: And it was it was like living in Indiana Jones.

Jason: I don't even know where you would begin there.

Jason: There's there's a thing they

Jason: have there called the Cajal,

Jason: which is this box of papers and

Jason: stuff like that that allegedly

Jason: came over with the

Jason: conquistadors.

Jason: But there's like stuff written

Jason: on skin and all this, like,

Jason: weird stuff.

Jason: And it's very, very selective about who gets to see it.

Jason: The people have tried to steal it back to the United States a

Jason: bunch of times.

Jason: The Smithsonian allegedly has had people there basically

Jason: trying to take this thing.

Jason: Wow.

Jason: I got to see that, which was a real honor.

Jason: That's cool.

Jason: Amazing.

Jason: And like all of these meetings and stuff like that would happen

Jason: in like, a dirt floor wooden shack with a fire in it, you

Jason: know, on a chilly night, drinking aguardiente and banana.

Jason: Or whatever.

Jason: With these guys.

Jason: It was super magical living there.

Jason: There's a famous horse race that

Jason: happens there every year that,

Jason: um, basically all the men go to

Jason: the coast.

Jason: I have no idea what they do.

Jason: I never made it to the coast,

Jason: but they go to the coast and

Jason: work.

Jason: That's what everyone says.

Jason: Okay.

Jason: You know, my husband's at the coast working.

Jason: Come in.

Jason: But, um, they, uh, come back in

Jason: November for the day of the dead

Jason: celebration, and that's their

Jason: huge holiday.

Jason: And so there's, like, three celebrations right in a row.

Jason: And one of them is this horse

Jason: race and the horse race is a one

Jason: hundred yards or something like

Jason: that.

Jason: But it's back and forth and each time you get to the finish line,

Jason: you have to drink a shot of quetzal tequila and you go back

Jason: and do the same thing.

Jason: The year I was there was the first time no one died during

Jason: the race, but there were some serious, serious injuries.

Jef: So they're on the horse drinking while they're on the horse.

Jason: Or they they go cross the finish line, drink, turn around, go

Jason: back, cross the finish line.

Jef: But they sit on the horse the whole time.

Jef: Yeah.

Jef: They never get off the horse.

Jef: Right?

Jason: In fact, most of them tie themselves to the horse.

Jef: Jesus.

Jason: Christ.

Jason: And uh, which is one of the things that's resulted in a.

Jef: Lot that would do it, the.

Jason: Deaths and stuff like that.

Jason: They, uh, use a rooster for their riding crop.

Jason: They tie the rooster's legs to their wrist so the rooster is

Jason: tied to them, a live rooster, and that's what they use.

Jason: And they spend all the money that they've made at the coast.

Jason: Uh.

Jason: Or doing whatever every family buys a cow.

Jason: That's like mandatory.

Jason: And, uh, that's partnered up and whatever for feasts.

Jef: Right?

Jason: Over the course of that week.

Jason: And then the guys all have the tailors there are famous.

Jason: They're most famous for this fabric that they make there.

Jason: The guys have these insanely

Jason: elaborate sort of conquistador

Jason: disco outfits.

Jef: Made sure.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: And that's it.

Jason: And everyone's broke again.

Jason: And all the men go back to the coast, huh?

Jef: And that's life.

Jason: They do it all again.

Jason: Yeah.

Jef: Wow.

Jason: Yeah.

Jason: I was a coordinator for a school

Jason: they had up there called El

Jason: Proyecto Linguistico de Espanol

Jason: Imam.

Jason: See, they've.

Jason: Never had a written language up there.

Jason: Mom is the name of the language.

Jason: They've never had a written.

Jason: So it's like tribal peoples.

Jason: They're indigenous people, right?

Jef: Indigenous.

Jason: Yeah. You know.

Jason: None of the existing alphabets work for some of the intricacies

Jason: of the language.

Jason: Sure it is.

Jason: It's a weird one, I remember.

Jason: OCS.

Jason: Which means.

Jason: May I have a cigarette?

Jef: Oh, you got that one down.

Jef: Yeah.

Jef: And they accepted you as if,

Jef: like you, you were accepted in

Jef: their friend groups and

Jef: whatever, or.

Jason: I'm just not an idiot.

Jason: And I understand how people work.

Jason: So, yeah.

Jason: They accepted me really well.

Jason: But there was an incident very

Jason: shortly after I left, within a

Jason: month after I left, where a

Jason: couple of Japanese tourists were

Jason: killed, like ten minutes after

Jason: getting off the bus they had

Jason: gotten.

Jason: They had made so many mistakes that they had.

Jason: There was like a mob riot and they killed this.

Jef: Jesus.

Jason: Christ.

Jason: Uh, woman and her husband.

Jason: And, uh, basically the whole

Jason: thing started because the woman

Jason: got off the bus and immediately

Jason: saw, like, some little kid

Jason: walking around.

Jason: I was like, oh, he's so cute.

Jason: And picked him up.

Jason: And the biggest fear they have of Americans especially.

Jason: But anyone foreign, right, is

Jason: that you're there to steal their

Jason: children's organs.

Jason: Oh, I don't know where that came

Jason: from, but they they believe it

Jason: totally.

Jason: And this, like, foreign looking

Jason: person jumped off and grabbed a

Jason: kid immediately and it just

Jason: exploded.

Jason: They both ended up dead.

Jason: Wow.

Jason: Yeah.

Jef: Hey. Yeah. Yeah. Are you still with the woman at this time?

Jason: Oh, no. She met some guy, and I

Jason: remember the guy had a moped,

Jason: too.

Jason: It's pretty cool.

Jef: Sweet.

Jason: And, uh.

Jason: Yeah, he scooted her out of town and.

Jef: Scooted her out of town.

Jason: I left the school.

Jason: I met a kind of a big group of people.

Jason: We traveled around to the rest of, uh, Central America mostly,

Jason: and had some amazing adventures.

Jef: Good times.

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: Lots of fun, man.

Jef: Right.

Jason: Lots of fun.

Jason: Then, uh, along the way, I acquired this dog that was a,

Jason: uh, a Dogo Argentino, which is.

Jason: I don't know if you know him or not, but they're big dogs.

Jason: Okay.

Jason: They're, like, all white, super short hair.

Jason: People always mix them up with pit bulls.

Jason: I was in the way, way tenango this town.

Jason: I walked by a pet shop and they had a litter.

Jason: And there was this one that was

Jason: like, looked like a little rat,

Jason: like, laying all splayed out by

Jason: himself.

Jason: And I was like, oh, what's going to happen to that one?

Jason: And the guy was like, I'll probably drown him.

Jason: And I was like, oh, I'll take him then.

Jason: And he was like, all right, seven thousand quetzales, which

Jason: is thirteen dollars or whatever.

Jason: And I was like, fuck it, okay.

Jef: Right.

Jason: So I bought him and he was so

Jason: little, he used to, I used to

Jason: carry him in a bag for a long

Jason: time.

Jason: He would fit in that bag.

Jason: And, um, we started hitchhiking and we hitchhiked from San Jose,

Jason: Costa Rica to Phoenix, Arizona.

Jef: Wow.

Jason: Yeah, it was pretty awesome.

Jef: With the dog.

Jef: Yeah. What was the dog's name?

Jason: Clavo. Clavo.

Jason: And everyone always made a joke about that because they use a

Jason: lot of diminutives and demonstratives and the way they

Jason: speak, they're right.

Jef: Right, right.

Jason: And so everyone always said, oh, right now he's a Tito.

Jason: Like just a little clavo.

Jason: Clavo means nail, okay?

Jason: But it's also slang for problem.

Jason: And they're like, you know, eventually he's going to become

Jason: a cloud clavo.

Jef: That's a good.

Jason: Name. A clavo like a huge.

Jef: Right, right, right.

Jason: It happened.

Jef: Right?

Jef: Well, it's a good name in that case.

Jason: Yeah. He was a great dog.

Jef: So you get to Phoenix.

Jason: Get to Phoenix, go to California.

Jason: Right?

Jason: My grandmother dies in Ohio, in Marion, Ohio.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: And, um, drive back for that funeral.

Jason: Stay here for about six months.

Jason: Go to New York.

Jason: Really?

Jason: At this point, like, it's very culture shock being back in the

Jason: United States at all.

Jef: And you were gone for, what, two or three years?

Jef: Yeah.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: And New York was just overload.

Jason: And I went from there.

Jason: I texted a friend or called a friend who, um, had crashed on

Jason: my couch in Minneapolis for about a year and was like, I got

Jason: to get out of New York.

Jason: My friend lived in Vermont.

Jason: I went up there, uh, to stay with him.

Jason: And if you're ever coming back

Jason: from Guatemala and feel culture

Jason: shock, Vermont is really you

Jason: know.

Jef: I think Vermont is good for a

Jef: lot of different kind of things,

Jef: I think.

Jef: It's just a chill place to.

Jason: Yeah, there's some Soul

Jason: killingly awful things about it,

Jason: I think, as well, but it's

Jason: mostly.

Jef: You can say that about almost anywhere.

Jef: Yeah.

Jef: Yeah, sure.

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: Um, yeah.

Jason: State of Vermont for a while.

Jason: Opened up a record store.

Jason: My little brother flew out to help me run it.

Jason: Fell in love with Vermont.

Jason: He still lives there now.

Jason: Mhm.

Jason: And he met this girl.

Jason: Had a real textbook affair.

Jason: Her husband was like a super rich dude and stuff like that.

Jason: And, um, eventually she left him and we got married.

Jef: How long did it take for like, so she's cheating on her husband

Jef: for a while.

Jef: But how long did it take from the beginning of the affair to

Jef: the leaving the guy?

Jason: Well, when we started, I think we kind of, like, made, like, if

Jason: this is still going on in two years, we gotta get together.

Jason: And then it became a year and a half and then a year, I think it

Jason: was about eight months.

Jef: And the husband never knew.

Jason: We got together, never knew

Jason: until I drove her up to

Jason: Montreal, um, because he was at

Jason: their Montreal house at the

Jason: time.

Jason: and, uh, or he was coming back there from some overseas trip.

Jef: Right.

Jason: So she we went back to Montreal the day before.

Jason: I helped her pack all her shit

Jason: up, and then I went and sat in a

Jason: bar while she waited for him to

Jason: come home.

Jason: And she was like, I'm leaving.

Jason: You came down and met me at the bar and threw all her shit in

Jason: the car and left.

Jef: Wow.

Jason: And stayed together for twenty two years.

Jason: Something like that.

Jef: Wow.

Jason: No shit.

Jason: No, no, no. Sorry.

Jason: Longer than that.

Jason: Longer than that.

Jason: Because my daughter is twenty two now, so.

Jason: Wow.

Jason: And, uh, when she got pregnant, I didn't want my kid to be

Jason: raised in Vermont.

Jason: And I did want my kid to be raised in New York.

Jason: Yeah, we ended up in Washington Heights, which is probably about

Jason: as tough as you're going to get in New York.

Jef: Back then anyway.

Jef: Yeah. Yeah.

Jason: Still, still.

Jef: Yeah. It's cleaned up quite a bit.

Jason: Oh, yeah.

Jason: I mean, before I got there, it was really.

Jason: That's what they shoot cops up there era.

Jef: Even Harlem's like, cleaned up quite a bit.

Jef: Yeah.

Jef: Yeah.

Jason: Right before I left New York, I

Jason: was in Harlem right on one

Jason: hundred and tenth and Second

Jason: Avenue.

Jef: I was right.

Jef: I think we talked about this.

Jef: That was right near there.

Jef: I was on in East Harlem at, uh, what was it, one hundred and

Jef: sixteenth between second and first and second?

Jef: Yeah.

Jef: That's right.

Jason: Yeah.

Jef: I remember they were calling it spa.

Jef: They were trying to rebrand

Jef: Spanish Harlem into spa back

Jef: then.

Jef: Oh my God.

Jef: It didn't take.

Jef: It didn't take?

Jef: No, no. There was a spa cafe near us, which was just like,

Jef: what are you doing?

Jef: What are you doing?

Jef: Spa.

Jef: Yeah.

Jef: So you're raising the kid in, uh, in Washington Heights?

Jason: Yeah. And I, you know, I'd gotten rid of the record store.

Jason: My wife was a medical professional.

Jason: She, uh, you know, her career was really moving forward.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: I sold the record store, and I spent.

Jason: I said, I'm going to spend the

Jason: first two years of our

Jason: daughter's life with her every

Jason: single day.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: And I did.

Jef: Sure.

Jason: For two years, man, we would every single day.

Jason: Like, while she was learning how to talk and everything would

Jason: just walk around New York City.

Jason: We'd go to Central Park every day.

Jason: We'd go to, you know, took her to the met and, like, all that

Jason: kind of stuff.

Jason: And she's a very sophisticated young woman, a great palate.

Jason: She loves to eat and she loves to cook.

Jason: Tons of.

Jef: Fun. She's still in New York.

Jef: Yeah.

Jef: Right on.

Jason: I continued butchering during this whole time, getting better

Jason: and better and better.

Jason: And New York.

Jason: I ended up working at a place

Jason: called Harlem Shambles, which at

Jason: the time was arguably one of the

Jason: three best butcher shops in the

Jason: country.

Jef: Okay.

Jason: And, uh, you know, we had a lot of press and stuff like that.

Jason: Sure.

Jason: A lot of interviews.

Jason: I used to speak at, you know, school events all the time and

Jason: things like that.

Jason: It was.

Jason: It was wonderful.

Jason: Like, finally.

Jason: Like dealing.

Jason: I mean, we bought cows.

Jason: That was it.

Jason: That's how the job worked.

Jason: We bought cows, we took them apart.

Jason: We aged everything.

Jason: It was one of the greatest honors in my life.

Jef: It's also cool that, like, this

Jef: thing that kind of started as a

Jef: fluke, in a way, in Minneapolis

Jef: kind of came full circle and,

Jef: uh.

Jef: Yeah, yeah.

Jason: Well, I just became so obsessed

Jason: with the anatomy of the animal

Jason: and learning it and just how,