Shownotes
This week's guest is Vicki Diesner, Executive Director of Ohio Animal Advocates. She joins Dr. G to discuss legislation currently being considered at the Ohio Statehouse that could improve the wellbeing of companion animals and those who care about them.
On this episode we discuss:
- Ban on cat declawing for cosmetic or convenience reasons
- Ban on non-veterinarians performing surgical procedures, such as tail docking, ear cropping and dewclaw removal
- Improving access to wellness care through increased registered veterinary technician utilization
Learn about what each policy seeks to achieve, who is opposing the legislations, and what you can do to support these common sense laws that aim to improve the welfare of our companion animals.
Transcripts
Dr. G:
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Hi, and welcome to the
Animal Welfare Junction.
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This is your host, Dr.
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G, and our music is written
and produced by Mike Sullivan.
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Today's guest is Vickie Deisner,
executive director of Ohio
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Animal Advocates and past guest.
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So thank you for being here, Vickie.
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Welcome again to the Junction.
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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
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Thank you for having me, and
it's good to see you again-
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Dr. G:
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and-
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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
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And your audience
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Dr. G:
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Thank you.
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Well, anybody that wants to learn
more about you, you were a previous
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guest on an episode about Ohio Animal
Advocates, so anybody that's interested
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in learning about the organization and
such can definitely check that out.
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Today we're going to be talking about
some policy and legislation changes
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that we're looking for in Ohio that
have a big impact on companion animals.
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So let's start with the first one, which
is about a statewide ban on cat declawing.
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Can you tell us about that?
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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
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Yes.
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Um, this is such an important
bill, and certainly we would not
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be the first state to address it.
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Uh, a ban on cat declawing has been
passed in many other states, and we
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are looking at doing that, supporting
that effort because indeed, when you
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declaw a cat, you basically cut off its
first digits on every part of its paws.
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This is not painless, and it's
also not always recoverable.
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There are many animals that suffer
throughout their life, especially how
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the procedure was done, if they get an
infection, and indeed, there are other
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ways to address, the unintentional
damage that can be done in a home
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by a cat that still has its claws.
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Dr. G:
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Yeah, as a veterinarian, one of
the behavioral issues that we see
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is that when you remove a cat's
claws, they're more likely to bite.
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And they're also, because of the pain
and discomfort that they go through
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this, they're more likely to have
other behaviors like inappropriate
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urinations and defecations, right?
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So some of these cats may develop some
really bad issues when, you know, all it
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takes is figuring out how to trim their
nails or use scratching posts and such.
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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
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And though this is the first year
it's been introduced, and often it
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takes five to seven years to get
animal, uh, legislation passed, it is
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a surprise, you might say, at the lack
of movement of this particular bill
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in the Ohio State House at this time.
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Dr. G:
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And it's not something
that is unheard of, right?
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Because there are other states
that have enacted declaw bans.
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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
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Absolutely.
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Um, one thing we are surprised about,
to be honest, is, some of the opposition
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that has come up recently, and,
actually from, you might say, people
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who would- we would believe would
partner on this issue, and that's the
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Ohio Veterinary Medical Association.
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Their reason is that a ban would
take the medical decisions away
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from the actual veterinarian.
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But indeed, um, you know, people who
do get this procedure done for their
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animals are generally not informed
as to the potential side effects and
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consequences of doing this procedure.
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It has, over time, lost its attraction
to many owners, you might say, who are
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aware of this, but the majority are
not aware of what can happen to a cat,
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what the actual effects on the cat are.
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In fact, unfortunately, a lot of
people think it's just like cutting
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their nails, and it's not that simple.
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It's cutting basically their
paws, the end of their paws off.
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And, um, we really wish this would be
looked at further, and we certainly
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will keep pushing it year after year.
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But we are surprised about
this particular opposition.
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Dr. G:
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In past times, we've always thought
about people thinking, you know,
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"I got a cat, I gotta get it spayed
or neutered and declawed," right?
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Like, it just went hand-in-hand.
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And it's over time we have learned, right?
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Back then we didn't understand the
long-term effects, we don't understand
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the, the issues, and it's something that
is done more as a convenience more so than
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for any real benefit for, for either side.
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And one of the things that I found out
is because when I started, uh, working
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as a veterinarian, I used to declaw cats,
and I didn't like it, but I would do it.
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And I would look for, you know,
what's the best way that I can do
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it that would prevent discomfort
and pain, you know, a lot of pain
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medication, pain control, use of laser.
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And even with all of those things,
I still saw that the suffering, the
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long-term suffering was just not okay for
me from a moral and ethical standpoint.
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And when I stopped doing it, I thought
a lot of people are gonna be mad
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because, you know, it's something
that, again, people expect to do.
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And I was very happily surprised that it
was not very difficult to change people's
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minds because the pet owner looks for
the veterinarian for recommendations.
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So they would come in and say, you
know, "I need to schedule to get my
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cat declawed," and we would talk to
them and say, "We don't, we don't
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recommend it and this is why."
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And they would say, "Oh, I was not aware."
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And, you know, it, it would take giving
them resources like, again, cat scratching
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posts, how to trim nails, different things
that can be done, and we did not find
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a huge opposition from the pet owners.
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And I'm very happy to say that
it's very seldom that people ask us
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anymore if that's something that we do
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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
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I, I assume that shows a trend of the
time that the consumers are more educated-
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Dr. G:
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Yeah, absolutely … the
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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
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clients.
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Dr. G:
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Yeah.
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And that's our job as
veterinarians, right?
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Is to educate the, the client so that
they can take better care of their pet.
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It's, it's hard to think that
a person would purposefully
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wanna harm their cat, right?
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So it's, it's all about education.
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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
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Out of curiosity, what happened with the
clients that when you used to do it, you
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know, and the after effects was the animal
was hurting, were the clients surprised?
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Um, you know, I'm sure you gave them
as possible consequence that happening,
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but w- how did they feel afterwards?
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Dr. G:
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So I think that we had very few issues and
side effects, mostly because of everything
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that we were doing in the process, right?
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Right.
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We were taking it as a very serious
surgery, not just as an elective, we're
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just taking these claws out and removing.
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But I think that, you know, we were
very open and honest with the clients,
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explaining to them these are the
possible things that can happen.
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So in reality, when there was
a side effect or a problem,
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it's, it was expected.
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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
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Thank you for sharing that
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Dr. G:
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Yeah.
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I will have to say, uh, one of the…
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We, we did see patients from other
clinics, and especially after we
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stopped doing it, that would come to
us because the cats have developed some
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kind of problem, either pain, regrowth,
inability to use the, the paw properly,
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and again, the inappropriate urinations.
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And, and most of those people did not have
that communication with the veterinarian
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about what to expect, and they were
completely taken by surprise and upset
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about the fact that they did something to
harm their cat that they were not aware
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that could be a potential consequence.
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So, um, so yeah, it just, it just
again goes along to, to that part of
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communication is so important between
the veterinarian and the pet owner.
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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
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Absolutely.
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Dr. G:
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One of the things that I also want to
bring, bring up is the fact that the,
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the concern for the opposition is that it
takes away decisions from veterinarians.
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But in reality, it doesn't, because if
a veterinarian feels that the declaw
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procedure is necessary for the health
of that cat, they are allowed to do so.
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What we're talking about is not
allowing declawing, again, just for
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convenience issues because you don't
want to trim your cat's nails so it
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doesn't, you know, tear up your stuff.
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So if I, as a veterinarian, feel…
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Uh, a great example that I can say is
cats that have their dewclaws, that
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have double dewclaws, and those dewclaws
get overgrow and grow into the pads,
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that's something that we do because
it is giving a benefit to the cat.
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It is something that is necessary.
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So a law like this would not prevent
me from doing something like that that
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is in ben- in the benefit of the cat.
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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
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And, and I will tell you that our
grassroots advocates, the ones
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who, um, work with community cats,
with, um, kittens, and just cats in
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general, this was the most important
bill out of the session to them
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Dr. G:
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So we're going from not being
able to declaw cats to now
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basically mutilating puppies.
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So how about you tell us about SB 232?
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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
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232 is, um, a very important bill
that you might say the folks that
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have worked on puppy mill issues in
Ohio have worked toward for 15 years.
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And what that would do is
basically eliminate the breeders
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from doing any surgeries.
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Um, they have done it for years.
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There has been problems with animals
dying from massive infections, from
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bleeding out, from you name it.
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Um, it can be a very debauched surgery.
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But, um, particularly when it's,
What they're doing is they're
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doing it for cosmetic purposes.
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They're doing tail docking,
dewclaw removal, and ear cropping.
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And particularly with the tail, um, you
know, you're cutting through bone, you
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know, I, I don't need to tell you that,
but you're cutting through bone, you're
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cutting through soft tissue, you're cut-
cutting through blood vessels, and, I
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mean, it could really hurt the animal.
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And just give them enough to,
to hold on when they're bigger.
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And it's gonna be quick.
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They're gonna yelp.
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We're gonna lay them on there,
get them all done, then put them
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back in here and get mom in.
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I don't put any kind of
antibiotic or anything on there.
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I want her to come in.
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I want her to lick them.
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If she's licking them, she's
pulling that skin as she licks them.
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And then it'll heal.
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It makes a better tail.
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We've banded them before.
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It doesn't make a pretty tail.
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You've, you've seen bands slip.
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Yeah.
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And when a band slips, it,
it doesn't, it's not good.
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So dikes, alcohol wipes, uh, 10 pups
here, so I'll probably wipe it off
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halfway through, but it's gonna go fast.
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You ready?
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You ready?
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If you're gonna be a vet.
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So I'm gonna hold it like this.
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And this is the way it's gonna
be for its life, so here we go.
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Thanks, guys
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This one's wiggly
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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
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On top of it, if the breeders are
doing it, they don't, they now are
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possibly allowed to use pain medication,
if they do, but they definitely
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aren't allowed to use anesthesia,
and these procedures are supposed to
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be done within a certain timeframe.
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Oftentime they're done over that
timeframe, which means the puppy
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is going to incur more pain.
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We have an ongoing problem with this
with the Ohio Department of Agriculture
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because the law as it was written in 2018
specifically stated that any euthanasia
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or surgery required to be performed
had to be done by a veterinarian.
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The Ohio Department of Agriculture
chose to define required as medically
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required, and then they decided to
say anything cosmetic re- required
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didn't fall into that category, so
the breeders could keep doing it.
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We believe this is because the
breeders wanted to keep doing this,
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and ODA capitulated to the breeders.
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Um, the reality is it
doesn't benefit the animals.
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And the odd thing is, again, even though
this was written and this was part of
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also trying to assure that, uh, a l-
uh, you know, this was a law to add
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additional restrictions not allowing
the Ohio Department of Agriculture
228
00:12:48,693 --> 00:12:52,913
to do announced inspections, because
of course they're gonna clean up
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00:12:52,913 --> 00:12:54,603
their act before somebody shows up.
230
00:12:54,883 --> 00:12:58,973
And indeed, within that timeframe, a
lot of those breeders are basically,
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00:12:59,663 --> 00:13:03,073
you know, calling the rescues and
saying, "Come and get these animals
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00:13:03,073 --> 00:13:06,873
or we're gonna kill them in two days
because ODA's coming to inspect us."
233
00:13:06,873 --> 00:13:12,753
And also defining how, you know, they
are defined as a commercial dog breeder.
234
00:13:12,803 --> 00:13:17,583
I mean, if you say there's so
many, you know, intact female
235
00:13:17,593 --> 00:13:22,513
dogs that can reproduce, but
then you add in a definition of,
236
00:13:23,093 --> 00:13:24,723
uh, you have to sell 40 puppies.
237
00:13:24,803 --> 00:13:28,463
There's a lot of breeders that do not
make records, and you can't prove that.
238
00:13:28,473 --> 00:13:31,623
So we really need to clamp
down on these three areas,
239
00:13:31,623 --> 00:13:33,693
but particularly the surgical.
240
00:13:34,135 --> 00:13:40,095
And oddly enough, then again, the
opposition, uh, for this particular bill
241
00:13:40,165 --> 00:13:45,005
is again the Ohio Veterinary Medical
Association, which has said that this
242
00:13:45,005 --> 00:13:50,455
requirement would actually, uh, burden
rural communities and their clinics
243
00:13:50,735 --> 00:13:54,255
because access is, um, very limited.
244
00:13:55,075 --> 00:13:57,825
And but why you would ever allow…
245
00:13:58,595 --> 00:14:02,325
You know, you're looking at breeders
that hopefully they have a high school
246
00:14:02,325 --> 00:14:07,055
education at least, but you're allowing
them to do surgeries when you require
247
00:14:07,055 --> 00:14:13,095
veterinarians to go through all the
years they do of education and clinical
248
00:14:13,095 --> 00:14:15,135
experience to be doing these surgeries.
249
00:14:15,495 --> 00:14:16,515
It doesn't make sense.
250
00:14:16,545 --> 00:14:23,125
And I will throw in, too, um, even
though when we addressed this in 2022
251
00:14:23,335 --> 00:14:30,045
and knew at the time because there were
pictures showing this, that surgical
252
00:14:30,045 --> 00:14:32,035
equipment oftentimes wasn't used.
253
00:14:32,045 --> 00:14:37,365
It could be, um, hedge clippers,
it could be a nail, uh, clippers,
254
00:14:37,385 --> 00:14:42,925
it could be, um, uh, you know, just
even a slice of, you know, a steel
255
00:14:42,925 --> 00:14:45,595
slice to cut through, you name it.
256
00:14:45,605 --> 00:14:49,805
But also there wasn't sterility in
this, and there wasn't antibiotics
257
00:14:49,805 --> 00:14:51,455
given to the animals afterwards.
258
00:14:51,835 --> 00:14:55,515
Um, but, you know, Ohio Department
of Agriculture said they were gonna
259
00:14:55,545 --> 00:14:57,515
give the breeders a how-to manual.
260
00:14:57,905 --> 00:15:03,555
We still know in 2026 that this is
not being followed, the how-to manual.
261
00:15:03,905 --> 00:15:07,365
And so unfortunately it isn't
that the breeders have improved
262
00:15:07,575 --> 00:15:08,925
how they do the surgeries.
263
00:15:08,985 --> 00:15:10,745
It's, it's totally unacceptable.
264
00:15:11,335 --> 00:15:17,155
And, um, I, I would say according to the
advocates we have, again, the folks that
265
00:15:17,155 --> 00:15:21,625
care about the issues of puppy mills, this
is their most important bill they want
266
00:15:21,625 --> 00:15:26,475
to work on and, and believe very strongly
that this should not be happening.
267
00:15:26,835 --> 00:15:31,445
And yet, um, I think they would be
surprised that the Ohio Veterinary Medical
268
00:15:31,445 --> 00:15:33,905
Association would not support this bill.
269
00:15:35,015 --> 00:15:35,016
Dr. G:
270
00:15:35,016 --> 00:15:40,865
I think, in my opinion, it is the dumbest
distinction to say that a surgery is no
271
00:15:40,865 --> 00:15:43,915
longer surgical if it is cosmetic, right?
272
00:15:43,915 --> 00:15:47,835
Because then all of these people
that are doing botched plastic
273
00:15:47,835 --> 00:15:52,735
surgeries in strip malls, then they
are not practicing medicine without
274
00:15:52,735 --> 00:15:54,335
a license because it's cosmetic.
275
00:15:54,375 --> 00:15:56,695
I mean, it makes no difference, right?
276
00:15:56,725 --> 00:16:00,885
It's if you're doing surgery, if
you are cutting through skin, you're
277
00:16:00,905 --> 00:16:05,645
cutting through bone, you're doing
a surgical procedure, it is surgery.
278
00:16:06,005 --> 00:16:11,455
This whole- Yes … it's cosmetic is
just, like, I mean, we talk about the
279
00:16:11,495 --> 00:16:15,965
intent of the law, and this definition
as far as trying to figure out what
280
00:16:15,965 --> 00:16:17,825
the intent of the law is just…
281
00:16:17,945 --> 00:16:19,975
I mean, I don't have
any other better words.
282
00:16:20,025 --> 00:16:22,145
It's just the dumbest thing I've heard.
283
00:16:22,655 --> 00:16:22,985
And- Yeah
284
00:16:23,699 --> 00:16:23,700
Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
285
00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:26,329
And it wasn't defined that
way within the law itself.
286
00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:30,349
That happens to be the convenient
interpretation that the Ohio
287
00:16:30,349 --> 00:16:32,269
Department of Agriculture chooses.
288
00:16:32,550 --> 00:16:32,551
Dr. G:
289
00:16:32,551 --> 00:16:37,720
And, you know, when they discussed about
giving them an instruction manual, it's
290
00:16:37,740 --> 00:16:40,890
like it doesn't matter if you give them
an instruction manual because they're
291
00:16:40,890 --> 00:16:45,920
not able to get their hands on veterinary
products, on veterinary supplies, right?
292
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,220
So okay, they cannot get their hands
on any kind of local anesthetic,
293
00:16:50,220 --> 00:16:54,020
topical anesthetic that they
can, uh, legally administer.
294
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,420
They cannot get their hands on any
kind of pain medication or antibiotics
295
00:16:58,420 --> 00:17:01,350
or anything that they can legally
administer to a companion animal
296
00:17:01,350 --> 00:17:02,850
because they're not a veterinarian.
297
00:17:03,190 --> 00:17:08,810
And a veterinarian cannot just prescribe
a medication or a product without having
298
00:17:08,810 --> 00:17:14,280
seen that pet because that is what this
VCPR that we're gonna be discussing about,
299
00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:19,500
the veterinary-patient-client relationship
stipulates that a veterinarian has to
300
00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:23,510
have a relationship with the pet owner,
which in this case would be the breeder,
301
00:17:23,819 --> 00:17:28,260
and have a relationship with the patient,
which would be that individual dog.
302
00:17:28,590 --> 00:17:33,480
So, you know, there is no way that
a veterinarian can legally just say,
303
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,290
"Yes, use this for your puppies"
when you're doing this procedure
304
00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:39,010
that you should not even be doing.
305
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,190
And, you know, it's…
306
00:17:42,130 --> 00:17:46,890
Most veterinarians that I know are
opposed to this happening just because,
307
00:17:46,940 --> 00:17:49,730
again, it's a surgery procedure, and
like you mentioned, we go through all
308
00:17:49,730 --> 00:17:53,220
this schooling and education, and we
learn all these things to be able to
309
00:17:53,220 --> 00:17:58,480
do surgery, and then you take somebody
without an education, and you give
310
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,610
them something sharp and tell them that
it's okay to mutilate these animals.
311
00:18:02,660 --> 00:18:05,060
So it just doesn't make any sense at all.
312
00:18:05,620 --> 00:18:05,621
Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
313
00:18:05,621 --> 00:18:09,990
I, I would add when you bring up the
point that most veterinarians that you
314
00:18:10,010 --> 00:18:17,430
know would not agree to this, um, when I
worked for the ASPCA and we were trying
315
00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:23,500
to run a bill in Illinois that would
allow veterinarians to get coverage, um,
316
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:28,290
and be approved to come across states to
deal with natural disasters of animals
317
00:18:28,290 --> 00:18:33,150
or manmade disasters, if it was big dog
fighting rings or puppy mill issues, that
318
00:18:33,150 --> 00:18:37,060
the Illinois, um, VMA was against it.
319
00:18:37,450 --> 00:18:41,190
And when actually talking to a number
of the vets in Illinois to try to
320
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:46,840
understand if they could e- explain
to us why is your VMA against it,
321
00:18:47,330 --> 00:18:50,420
they said they didn't know 'cause they
really weren't involved in the VMA.
322
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:55,920
And in, you know, f- questioning them
further, you know, and asking why,
323
00:18:55,950 --> 00:19:01,010
they said the cost of belonging to the
VMA as a member was so high that they
324
00:19:01,010 --> 00:19:07,560
basically belonged every third year maybe
to be able to get all their CEs done
325
00:19:07,570 --> 00:19:10,920
within that timeframe, and that was it.
326
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,580
They couldn't afford to belong every year.
327
00:19:13,060 --> 00:19:17,160
So when we then asked, "Well, then who
sits on their VMA policy committees?
328
00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:19,560
Who sits on the leadership?"
329
00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:23,970
They did not know, but further
investigation showed that a lot of times
330
00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:29,030
veterinarians were able to do that,
become more active, when maybe they
331
00:19:29,030 --> 00:19:33,580
worked for a commercial dog breeder
that would basically pay for their full
332
00:19:33,580 --> 00:19:39,420
membership to the VMA and encourage
their involvement in policy issues.
333
00:19:39,430 --> 00:19:41,750
Same way for factory
farms or other issues.
334
00:19:42,190 --> 00:19:44,480
So it kind of points to, does…
335
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:51,060
I began to wonder and still wonder who
really basically sets the leadership
336
00:19:51,060 --> 00:19:53,410
and policy decisions for the VMAs.
337
00:19:53,410 --> 00:19:56,820
It's certainly not the entire
veterinarian community in that state
338
00:19:58,352 --> 00:19:58,353
Dr. G:
339
00:19:58,353 --> 00:20:02,712
Yeah, I think that, you know, the, the
OVMA, like if you go to their website,
340
00:20:02,712 --> 00:20:06,792
they have a lot of really useful
resources for veterinarians, especially
341
00:20:06,792 --> 00:20:11,242
like for the mandatory reporting law
and for, and for different things.
342
00:20:11,582 --> 00:20:14,852
And it has a lot of really good
information, but I don't know that
343
00:20:14,872 --> 00:20:19,082
a lot of veterinarians know how to
access it, and again, I don't know
344
00:20:19,082 --> 00:20:25,502
that veterinarians necessarily have
a voice into the things that the
345
00:20:25,532 --> 00:20:28,732
OVMA is representing on our behalf.
346
00:20:29,802 --> 00:20:33,322
And I mean, I have been a, a member of
the Ohio Veterinary Medical Association
347
00:20:33,322 --> 00:20:37,522
since I graduated vet school, and it has
expired here and there and, you know,
348
00:20:37,542 --> 00:20:41,952
come, come conference time it's like,
"Oh yeah, I gotta, I gotta renew that."
349
00:20:42,412 --> 00:20:47,462
But, but yeah, I think that as
veterinarians we have to be more
350
00:20:47,492 --> 00:20:52,722
aware of what the Veterinary Medical
Association stands for, so because
351
00:20:52,812 --> 00:20:58,142
they're in, in essence representing
us as members, and if they're not
352
00:20:58,142 --> 00:21:03,152
representing what the majority of
veterinarians want, then it's not really
353
00:21:03,172 --> 00:21:05,292
representing veterinary medicine in Ohio.
354
00:21:06,212 --> 00:21:06,213
Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
355
00:21:06,213 --> 00:21:09,202
And, and then actually they're not
working on the change that is really
356
00:21:09,202 --> 00:21:13,442
need for the veterinarians in every
aspect of trenches they're in, whether
357
00:21:13,442 --> 00:21:17,192
it's working with small animals, large
animals, and, you know, the reality
358
00:21:17,192 --> 00:21:18,762
of everything that they encounter.
359
00:21:19,409 --> 00:21:19,410
Dr. G:
360
00:21:19,410 --> 00:21:26,399
Now for , for House Bill 664, and this,
this I have to say, I mean, I have
361
00:21:26,399 --> 00:21:31,599
been working on, on trying to elevate
veterinary technicians for a really,
362
00:21:31,599 --> 00:21:34,619
really, really long time because I
think that they're underutilized.
363
00:21:34,619 --> 00:21:37,309
I think that a lot of veterinary
technicians are leaving the
364
00:21:37,309 --> 00:21:40,999
field just because they're
bored, and they're not well-paid.
365
00:21:41,329 --> 00:21:44,929
And these are individuals that go through
school, get an associate's degree.
366
00:21:45,179 --> 00:21:47,239
Like, they have to do
continuing education.
367
00:21:47,249 --> 00:21:52,099
They have to do so much to be called
a registered veterinary technician.
368
00:21:52,579 --> 00:21:56,409
And, you know, to, to a sense,
they are the same as what we
369
00:21:56,409 --> 00:21:57,759
would expect a nurse to do.
370
00:21:57,949 --> 00:22:01,209
Actually, they do more than nurses
do because they have to do so many
371
00:22:01,209 --> 00:22:06,439
different things for, for their patients,
and they're just not given the, the
372
00:22:06,439 --> 00:22:09,339
ability to do all of these things.
373
00:22:09,829 --> 00:22:15,919
Um, so one of the things is that as
a mobile veterinarian prim- primarily
374
00:22:15,919 --> 00:22:21,039
doing affordable and accessible care, I
see the need for, in, in particularly in
375
00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:26,949
rural areas of Ohio, the need for more
access to wellness care, to vaccinations,
376
00:22:26,949 --> 00:22:30,119
to be preventive, um, so that…
377
00:22:30,439 --> 00:22:33,399
You know, the- these individuals
don't have access to veterinarians,
378
00:22:33,409 --> 00:22:36,329
so definitely if their animals get
sick, they're not gonna be able to
379
00:22:36,329 --> 00:22:38,919
take them somewhere to be, to be seen.
380
00:22:38,919 --> 00:22:42,179
But if we can prevent some
of these diseases, I mean,
381
00:22:42,189 --> 00:22:44,079
that's, that's a huge impact.
382
00:22:44,469 --> 00:22:50,789
So House Bill 664 is about allowing
registered veterinary technicians to
383
00:22:50,789 --> 00:22:55,999
administer vaccines and antiparasitic
medications to companion animals without
384
00:22:55,999 --> 00:23:01,839
a veterinarian present, but under the
direction of a licensed veterinarian.
385
00:23:02,369 --> 00:23:02,370
Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
386
00:23:02,370 --> 00:23:08,239
Um, you know, looking at House Bill 664,
it would be nothing but a benefit from
387
00:23:08,239 --> 00:23:13,849
what many of the, not only advocates, but
the rescues, the humane shelters we've
388
00:23:13,899 --> 00:23:20,139
talked to, um, you know, animal welfare
professionals, that they see the need for
389
00:23:20,139 --> 00:23:24,289
this because there's been a veterinarian
shortage since before the pandemic.
390
00:23:24,829 --> 00:23:28,209
There's been a spay/neuter shortage
that's been going on over the last
391
00:23:28,209 --> 00:23:34,289
decade that is putting us back at the
point of, you know, numbers of homeless
392
00:23:34,289 --> 00:23:36,189
animals like there was a decade ago.
393
00:23:36,559 --> 00:23:40,579
Um, when you don't get spay/neuter a lot
of times, um, you're also not getting
394
00:23:40,579 --> 00:23:43,879
wellness care for the animals, and
you're not getting all the vaccines.
395
00:23:44,179 --> 00:23:50,549
And at a time in particular when Ohio,
we do not have rabies vaccinations
396
00:23:50,579 --> 00:23:55,749
being required and mandated throughout
the state, and yet we passed dangerous
397
00:23:55,749 --> 00:24:02,029
dog law because there's a concern about
an increase in bites, um, why aren't
398
00:24:02,029 --> 00:24:04,499
we having mandatory rabies vaccines?
399
00:24:04,779 --> 00:24:08,159
But we can't do it with
the current vet shortage.
400
00:24:08,539 --> 00:24:13,649
So indeed, as you said, utilizing
these people to do shots, which
401
00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:16,069
is not really that difficult.
402
00:24:16,169 --> 00:24:20,979
Why we can't move forward in this,
you might say, you know, minimal
403
00:24:20,989 --> 00:24:25,269
way, because certainly the RVTs
could do a lot more under the
404
00:24:25,269 --> 00:24:27,149
direction of a veterinarian's care.
405
00:24:27,589 --> 00:24:33,719
Um, it needs to happen, and the most
astonishing thing is aga- once again,
406
00:24:33,729 --> 00:24:38,369
we have the Ohio Veterinary Medical
Association opposing it, saying that
407
00:24:38,369 --> 00:24:42,229
basically, you know, they believe the VCPR
408
00:24:44,269 --> 00:24:49,149
establishment should only be reserved
for the veterinarian, but it was my
409
00:24:49,149 --> 00:24:53,149
understanding from what I heard from
the vets that, you know, the technicians
410
00:24:53,149 --> 00:24:58,439
would be doing it along with the approval
and the oversight of the veterinarian.
411
00:24:58,779 --> 00:25:02,739
Maybe they're not right on site,
but here's the strange thing.
412
00:25:02,759 --> 00:25:06,849
Where you have the most trouble of
getting the rabies vaccination is in
413
00:25:06,869 --> 00:25:13,829
the rural area, and didn't OVMA just
say it was okay to do surgeries in
414
00:25:13,829 --> 00:25:18,559
the rural areas because there was an
overburden on the clinics, but it's not
415
00:25:18,559 --> 00:25:24,019
okay to do rabies shots with a tech-
with a technician under the supervision
416
00:25:24,019 --> 00:25:25,779
of a veterinarian in a rural area?
417
00:25:26,379 --> 00:25:30,699
How could surgeries be okay
and vaccinations are not?
418
00:25:30,999 --> 00:25:32,349
It makes no sense.
419
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,429
It's, it's just, it's total opposite.
420
00:25:35,439 --> 00:25:36,289
It makes no sense.
421
00:25:36,299 --> 00:25:37,569
There's no other way to explain it.
422
00:25:37,949 --> 00:25:41,089
It's, you know, hypercritical.
423
00:25:41,609 --> 00:25:41,610
Dr. G:
424
00:25:41,610 --> 00:25:44,049
And surgeries by laypeople, right?
425
00:25:44,049 --> 00:25:46,899
Like, not even surgeries by a
registered veterinary technicians.
426
00:25:46,959 --> 00:25:51,239
We're talking about laypeople doing,
um, surgeries, and we're asking for
427
00:25:51,239 --> 00:25:54,349
registered veterinary technicians
to be able to give vaccinations.
428
00:25:54,749 --> 00:25:58,029
And registered veterinary technicians,
you know, they go through a two-year
429
00:25:58,029 --> 00:26:01,489
schooling, and veterinarians, we
go through four-year schooling.
430
00:26:01,769 --> 00:26:07,659
But our s- our education is vastly
different because we have to do more
431
00:26:07,659 --> 00:26:11,649
diagnosis and surgery and that kind
of stuff, whereas the technicians
432
00:26:11,729 --> 00:26:17,389
are more, how you say, educated into
the wellness, into the examination,
433
00:26:17,389 --> 00:26:21,429
into, uh, how to identify abnormal
things, and then we trust them to
434
00:26:21,429 --> 00:26:25,869
do induct- anesthesia inductions and
prepping and all of that stuff, which
435
00:26:25,929 --> 00:26:28,399
requires a lot of education and talent.
436
00:26:28,769 --> 00:26:34,019
So, you know, in, in my experience in
most veterinary clinics, veterinary
437
00:26:34,019 --> 00:26:37,689
technicians are doing the majority
of the work with the patient.
438
00:26:38,049 --> 00:26:39,349
The technicians are the ones…
439
00:26:39,349 --> 00:26:41,729
You know, if a patient comes in
and they have an ear infection,
440
00:26:41,889 --> 00:26:45,119
the tech is the one that goes
into the room, talks to the owner.
441
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,219
The owner says, "My dog
has been shaking its head."
442
00:26:47,459 --> 00:26:50,889
Before the veterinarian is even in the
room, the technician has collected the
443
00:26:50,889 --> 00:26:55,919
sample, made the swab, analyzed it,
and given the, the veterinarian the
444
00:26:55,919 --> 00:26:58,259
information about what they have found.
445
00:26:58,619 --> 00:27:03,649
So, you know, we're w- we trust them
to do all these things, but then all
446
00:27:03,649 --> 00:27:08,599
of a sudden, just because of this
hangup, we're saying that they're
447
00:27:08,599 --> 00:27:11,389
not allowed to, to give vaccines.
448
00:27:11,829 --> 00:27:20,273
But then the, you know, the The switch
is that now there was a change into how
449
00:27:20,273 --> 00:27:22,623
the legislation was proposed initially.
450
00:27:23,354 --> 00:27:25,844
Ohio Statehouse: For its fourth
hearing and recognize Vice
451
00:27:25,844 --> 00:27:27,114
Chair Newman for a motion.
452
00:27:27,834 --> 00:27:28,384
Thank you, Mr.
453
00:27:28,384 --> 00:27:28,774
Chairman.
454
00:27:28,814 --> 00:27:34,064
I motion to amend with 136_2820.
455
00:27:35,404 --> 00:27:36,894
The amendment is in order.
456
00:27:36,944 --> 00:27:40,304
Will the member please
explain the amendment?
457
00:27:40,884 --> 00:27:41,834
Yes, sir, will do.
458
00:27:41,834 --> 00:27:42,254
Thank you.
459
00:27:42,884 --> 00:27:47,734
This amendment defines covered animal
to mean a sheltered dog or cat, thus
460
00:27:47,734 --> 00:27:51,424
limiting a registered veterinary
technician to dispense and administer
461
00:27:51,424 --> 00:27:56,214
vaccines and antiparasitic medic-
medication to only shelter dogs and
462
00:27:56,214 --> 00:27:58,594
cats instead of all dogs and cats.
463
00:27:59,494 --> 00:28:01,954
Are there any objections to the amendment?
464
00:28:05,284 --> 00:28:07,794
Hearing none, the amendment is accepted.
465
00:28:08,774 --> 00:28:08,775
Dr. G:
466
00:28:08,775 --> 00:28:12,494
Initially it was for technicians to
be able to give vaccinations to any
467
00:28:12,494 --> 00:28:17,114
dog or cat, and then it got changed
to they would only be allowed to do
468
00:28:17,114 --> 00:28:22,644
it to shelter dogs and cats, which
there is no difference between the two.
469
00:28:22,714 --> 00:28:24,184
The only difference is ownership.
470
00:28:24,694 --> 00:28:29,064
But we're saying that legally they
are okay to give a vaccine to a
471
00:28:29,064 --> 00:28:33,834
dog that is not owned by a, by
an individual, but not okay to do
472
00:28:33,834 --> 00:28:36,704
it to an, to a pet that is owned.
473
00:28:37,174 --> 00:28:39,734
That makes absolutely zero legal sense.
474
00:28:40,740 --> 00:28:43,230
Ohio Statehouse: For its fourth
hearing and recognize Vice
475
00:28:43,230 --> 00:28:44,500
Chair Newman for a motion.
476
00:28:45,220 --> 00:28:45,770
Thank you, Mr.
477
00:28:45,770 --> 00:28:46,160
Chairman.
478
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:51,450
I motion to amend with 136_2820.
479
00:28:52,790 --> 00:28:54,280
The amendment is in order.
480
00:28:54,330 --> 00:28:57,690
Will the member please
explain the amendment?
481
00:28:58,270 --> 00:28:59,220
Yes, sir, will do.
482
00:28:59,220 --> 00:28:59,640
Thank you.
483
00:29:00,270 --> 00:29:05,120
This amendment defines covered animal
to mean a sheltered dog or cat, thus
484
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,810
limiting a registered veterinary
technician to dispense and administer
485
00:29:08,810 --> 00:29:13,600
vaccines and antiparasitic medic-
medication to only shelter dogs and
486
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,980
cats instead of all dogs and cats.
487
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,340
Are there any objections to the amendment?
488
00:29:22,670 --> 00:29:25,180
Hearing none, the amendment is accepted.
489
00:29:26,110 --> 00:29:33,110
With us today, Alba Gonzalez, to
provide interested party testimony
490
00:29:36,300 --> 00:29:39,310
Ohio Statehouse: Welcome to Ag Committee,
and you can proceed when you're ready.
491
00:29:39,710 --> 00:29:39,711
Dr. G:
492
00:29:39,711 --> 00:29:40,660
Thank you so much.
493
00:29:41,180 --> 00:29:41,530
All right.
494
00:29:43,010 --> 00:29:43,300
Hi.
495
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,570
Ch- Chair Klopfenstein, Vice Chair
Newman, Ranking Minority Member
496
00:29:48,570 --> 00:29:52,220
Miller, and distinguished members of
the House Agriculture Committee, my
497
00:29:52,220 --> 00:29:55,750
name is Michelle Gonzalez, and I'm a
veterinarian, licensed and practicing in
498
00:29:55,750 --> 00:29:57,680
the state of Ohio for the last 26 years.
499
00:29:58,390 --> 00:30:02,180
I am the founder and medical direction
of the … director of the Rascal Unit,
500
00:30:02,230 --> 00:30:05,320
which is a mobile veterinary clinic
providing affordable and accessible
501
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,330
care throughout the state of Ohio.
502
00:30:07,710 --> 00:30:11,830
And I'm also the director of Rascal
Charities, which is a 501c3 nonprofit
503
00:30:11,830 --> 00:30:15,940
organization with a mission to assist
individuals, shelters, and animal
504
00:30:15,940 --> 00:30:20,750
caretakers in an effort to reduce
shelter over- overpopulation, preventable
505
00:30:20,750 --> 00:30:23,000
diseases, and economic euthanasia.
506
00:30:23,500 --> 00:30:26,390
I would like to thank Representatives
Fischer and Dieter for their
507
00:30:26,390 --> 00:30:30,470
commitment to sponsoring this important
legislation, and I'm speaking on
508
00:30:30,470 --> 00:30:32,470
behalf of myself and my organization.
509
00:30:32,510 --> 00:30:36,610
I'm here to support the House
Bill, but as originally introduced.
510
00:30:37,968 --> 00:30:41,398
20 years ago, I started the Rascal
unit because I saw a need for
511
00:30:41,398 --> 00:30:44,858
services that provided veterinary
care to individuals in need.
512
00:30:45,328 --> 00:30:48,668
And in doing so, I learned that most
people wanna take care of their animals.
513
00:30:48,758 --> 00:30:52,978
A lot of people are unable to, whether
it be for access because they can't
514
00:30:52,978 --> 00:30:56,988
get to a veterinarian, or it can be
because of affordability, or even
515
00:30:56,988 --> 00:30:58,818
just simply for a lack of education.
516
00:30:59,048 --> 00:31:03,128
So I felt that as a veterinarian,
having the veterinary oath, it's
517
00:31:03,128 --> 00:31:08,018
my duty to make sure that all
animals have access to, to care.
518
00:31:08,668 --> 00:31:11,038
20 years later, that has not changed.
519
00:31:11,728 --> 00:31:15,778
So the reality that we face today is a
shortage in access to veterinary care.
520
00:31:15,998 --> 00:31:19,848
Um, and the House Bill 664 as
originally presented provides a
521
00:31:19,848 --> 00:31:23,528
solution because we're using registered
veterinary technician, and these
522
00:31:23,528 --> 00:31:25,218
are people who undergo schooling.
523
00:31:25,558 --> 00:31:29,038
They are licensed in the state of
Ohio, and we would be asking them
524
00:31:29,038 --> 00:31:32,918
pr- to provide preventive care under
the direction, but without the direct
525
00:31:32,918 --> 00:31:34,778
supervision of a licensed veterinarian.
526
00:31:34,948 --> 00:31:39,988
So by allowing these RVTs to provide
vaccinations and wellness care without
527
00:31:39,988 --> 00:31:44,188
the need of a veterinarian physically
present, we aim to decrease the risk
528
00:31:44,188 --> 00:31:47,508
of preventable diseases and keep
animals and people safer as some
529
00:31:47,508 --> 00:31:51,258
of these conditions are transmitted
from human-- from animals to humans.
530
00:31:52,278 --> 00:31:56,408
The new sub bill fails to provide help to
communities in need of pet wellness care.
531
00:31:56,858 --> 00:32:00,818
It's useful to some shelters, but
the reality is that many shelter
532
00:32:00,828 --> 00:32:05,848
organizations already provide their own
vaccines to their own animals, so it's
533
00:32:05,848 --> 00:32:08,678
not really going to increase access.
534
00:32:09,058 --> 00:32:12,098
Uh, the only exception is rabies
vaccination, and currently less
535
00:32:12,098 --> 00:32:16,318
than half the, um, counties in Ohio
require rabies vaccination by law.
536
00:32:16,668 --> 00:32:21,378
So it's not something that shelters
may necessarily use on their own.
537
00:32:21,798 --> 00:32:26,398
So the goal of access to care is
increasing the resources to communities.
538
00:32:26,808 --> 00:32:31,648
And again, we are eliminating the ability
to provide this service to pet owners.
539
00:32:32,148 --> 00:32:35,568
Um, we're limiting the services to
shelters, and by doing so, we do
540
00:32:35,568 --> 00:32:38,818
not have the opportunity to prevent
deadly contagious diseases such as
541
00:32:38,848 --> 00:32:41,438
parvovirus, distemper, and rabies.
542
00:32:43,526 --> 00:32:47,526
The new bill seeks to allow veterinary
technicians to administer rabies
543
00:32:47,526 --> 00:32:52,206
vaccination and others to shelter animals
only and not to community animals.
544
00:32:52,236 --> 00:32:57,716
But the only difference between a shelter
animal and an owned pet is just ownership.
545
00:32:58,186 --> 00:33:02,166
It's not produ- productive to create
a legal distinction based on ownership
546
00:33:02,186 --> 00:33:07,566
when all companion animals, owned and
or, and unowned, are considered the same.
547
00:33:07,586 --> 00:33:09,216
And this is not my definition.
548
00:33:09,246 --> 00:33:11,666
This is a definition by
the Ohio Supreme Court.
549
00:33:12,616 --> 00:33:17,446
House Bill 664 as originally drafted
provides services to all companion animals
550
00:33:17,446 --> 00:33:21,766
by registered veterinary technicians
under the direction of a veterinarian
551
00:33:21,796 --> 00:33:25,896
following protocols established by the
veterinarian to prevent technicians from
552
00:33:25,896 --> 00:33:28,466
acting independently and without guidance.
553
00:33:28,926 --> 00:33:32,486
This would be a great advancement
in access to veterinary care in
554
00:33:32,486 --> 00:33:34,466
both animal and public health.
555
00:33:34,916 --> 00:33:40,786
So I respectfully urge you to support
HB 664 in its original form because
556
00:33:40,836 --> 00:33:44,286
all companion animals should have the
opportunity to receive these services.
557
00:33:44,796 --> 00:33:48,526
Thank you for listening, and I'm
happy to answer any questions.
558
00:33:49,886 --> 00:33:53,256
Chairman Klopfenstein: Thank you for being
here today and offering, uh, testimony.
559
00:33:53,316 --> 00:33:55,496
Are there any questions
from the committee?
560
00:33:58,224 --> 00:33:59,244
Representative Brent
561
00:34:00,934 --> 00:34:01,654
Representative Brent: Thank you, Chairman.
562
00:34:01,654 --> 00:34:04,294
From the chairman to the witness,
thank you for coming and providing
563
00:34:04,294 --> 00:34:07,974
your testimony as a subject
matter expert, um, in this space.
564
00:34:08,214 --> 00:34:12,353
My question, though, is obviously
there's been some interest party
565
00:34:12,364 --> 00:34:17,984
needing to get us to this point where
this amendment is gonna be may or,
566
00:34:18,034 --> 00:34:21,614
may or m- may or may not be, will be-
well, has been added at this point.
567
00:34:23,864 --> 00:34:26,944
Who do you feel like are the
winners and the losers with
568
00:34:26,944 --> 00:34:28,043
adding on this new language?
569
00:34:28,083 --> 00:34:29,764
Specifically name them by name.
570
00:34:29,904 --> 00:34:29,905
Dr. G:
571
00:34:29,905 --> 00:34:30,643
Yeah, absolutely.
572
00:34:30,674 --> 00:34:33,054
I honestly don't think that
there's a lot of winners.
573
00:34:33,054 --> 00:34:37,103
I think there's more losers, just
because access to care is a huge problem.
574
00:34:37,353 --> 00:34:40,364
And I speak from personal
experience because most of my
575
00:34:40,364 --> 00:34:42,083
work has been in rural Ohio.
576
00:34:42,404 --> 00:34:45,384
I travel through a lot of rural
communities, especially Appalachia
577
00:34:45,384 --> 00:34:49,813
communities, where the access to
care is limited by distance, but
578
00:34:49,813 --> 00:34:53,494
it's also limited by the number of
veterinarians and, and by cost of care.
579
00:34:53,924 --> 00:34:58,454
So those are the, those are the animals
that really need this, this service.
580
00:34:58,824 --> 00:35:02,834
And the shelters are affected, but the
shelters are affected because if the
581
00:35:02,834 --> 00:35:06,574
community animals are not vaccinated,
then those animals, when they enter
582
00:35:06,574 --> 00:35:09,844
the shelters, then they're going
to be transmitting these diseases
583
00:35:09,844 --> 00:35:11,164
to the animals in the shelter.
584
00:35:11,484 --> 00:35:16,584
So it's beneficial to the shelters,
um, and to communities for the
585
00:35:16,584 --> 00:35:18,694
community animals to be vaccinated
586
00:35:20,790 --> 00:35:23,290
Representative Brent: Follow-up
Follow-up Thank you, Chairman.
587
00:35:23,290 --> 00:35:27,630
So why do you think this amendment
was even included out of everything?
588
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,720
We've gotten to this point, and this bill
has, has been around long enough, but
589
00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:33,390
what do you think was the motivation?
590
00:35:34,690 --> 00:35:34,691
Dr. G:
591
00:35:34,691 --> 00:35:37,670
In my opinion, honestly, I think
that it was due to appease Ohio
592
00:35:37,670 --> 00:35:39,300
Veterinary Medical Association.
593
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:39,560
Mm.
594
00:35:39,740 --> 00:35:40,980
Because they…
595
00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:47,310
I, I understand that they oppose companion
animals that are owned being vaccinated
596
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:54,140
by technicians, but they are okay or at
least neutral with, um, shelter animals
597
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,640
being, being vaccinated by technicians.
598
00:35:56,670 --> 00:35:59,900
And realistically, the whole
question behind the rabies
599
00:35:59,900 --> 00:36:01,500
vaccination is a legal one.
600
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:07,060
So if a technician is legally allowed
to vaccinate a shelter animal, why
601
00:36:07,060 --> 00:36:10,600
would they not be legally allowed
to vaccinate an owned animal?
602
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,980
If we're thinking about the fact
that if the technician vaccinates the
603
00:36:14,980 --> 00:36:19,350
animal at the shelter and then that
animal is, is adopted out, then that
604
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,240
animal becomes owned and still has been
vaccinated by a veterinary technician.
605
00:36:23,830 --> 00:36:26,290
Representative Brent: So Chairman,
just for clarification, the, the
606
00:36:26,290 --> 00:36:30,220
witness is more or less trying to make
sure that all animals get vaccinated?
607
00:36:32,270 --> 00:36:32,580
It's…
608
00:36:32,630 --> 00:36:34,760
I'm saying it just for her,
but I have to say it to you.
609
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:35,450
Protocol.
610
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:36,761
Dr. G:
611
00:36:36,761 --> 00:36:37,250
Yes.
612
00:36:37,660 --> 00:36:38,060
Representative Brent: Okay.
613
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:38,361
Dr. G:
614
00:36:38,361 --> 00:36:38,740
Sorry.
615
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:39,410
Representative Brent: Thank you.
616
00:36:40,370 --> 00:36:40,970
Thank you, Chairman.
617
00:36:41,290 --> 00:36:42,720
Chairman Klopfenstein:
Any additional questions?
618
00:36:44,150 --> 00:36:50,450
So having listened to your testimony, you
like the direction the bill is headed, but
619
00:36:50,450 --> 00:36:52,810
your thought is it does not go far enough.
620
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:53,121
Dr. G:
621
00:36:53,121 --> 00:36:54,010
Yeah, absolutely.
622
00:36:54,010 --> 00:36:58,380
For us to make an impact, we need to
make it accessible to the majority
623
00:36:58,380 --> 00:37:03,290
of animals, not limited to shelter
animals, especially when, again,
624
00:37:03,700 --> 00:37:08,020
shelters have a little bit more access
to care compared to the community.
625
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:09,170
Chairman Klopfenstein: Okay.
626
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,260
Any additional questions?
627
00:37:11,410 --> 00:37:12,500
Representative Sims.
628
00:37:13,330 --> 00:37:13,860
Representative Sims: Thank you, Mr.
629
00:37:13,860 --> 00:37:14,180
Chairman.
630
00:37:14,180 --> 00:37:15,700
So are you now…
631
00:37:15,770 --> 00:37:19,370
Are you still IP, or are you an opponent?
632
00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:19,901
Dr. G:
633
00:37:19,901 --> 00:37:21,950
Well, I don't want to be an opponent.
634
00:37:22,010 --> 00:37:26,200
I've been wanting technicians to
be elevated for a really long time,
635
00:37:26,250 --> 00:37:29,890
and, and I am biased because I have
amazing technicians that work for me.
636
00:37:30,230 --> 00:37:30,580
So…
637
00:37:30,580 --> 00:37:34,030
And I know that I would trust them
to make decisions, uh, with their
638
00:37:34,030 --> 00:37:35,910
education and with their experience.
639
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,010
So I'm not…
640
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:43,290
I don't wanna oppose because I don't
want it to go backwards, but I am not in
641
00:37:43,290 --> 00:37:46,450
agreement w- the way that it is, I guess.
642
00:37:47,260 --> 00:37:49,980
So that's, that's why I
presented as an interested party.
643
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,610
This is, this is something that
is extremely important to me.
644
00:37:53,740 --> 00:37:58,470
I don't want it to just go away, but
I feel that if it's gonna go forward,
645
00:37:58,490 --> 00:38:00,350
it needs to go forward the right way
646
00:38:02,314 --> 00:38:02,874
Representative Sims: Follow-up?
647
00:38:04,434 --> 00:38:14,064
S- so based on your expert opinion,
does this halt really expanding
648
00:38:14,074 --> 00:38:18,214
access to care for, for animals?
649
00:38:18,484 --> 00:38:18,485
Dr. G:
650
00:38:18,485 --> 00:38:21,834
If we're only doing it for shelters,
it is not expanding access to
651
00:38:21,834 --> 00:38:24,144
care for animals, in my opinion
652
00:38:26,916 --> 00:38:27,196
Representative Sims: Thank you.
653
00:38:27,196 --> 00:38:27,666
Thank you, Mr.
654
00:38:27,666 --> 00:38:28,036
Chairman.
655
00:38:28,726 --> 00:38:28,727
Dr. G:
656
00:38:28,727 --> 00:38:32,666
That was one of the, one of the
things that I was discussing is
657
00:38:32,936 --> 00:38:34,506
this is an access to care bill.
658
00:38:34,806 --> 00:38:39,296
So we are looking to provide
the access to vaccination to
659
00:38:39,296 --> 00:38:41,566
the majority of dogs and cats.
660
00:38:42,126 --> 00:38:47,856
And by making it only be to the shelters,
first, you have a huge population that
661
00:38:47,856 --> 00:38:50,916
would not be able to benefit from this.
662
00:38:51,226 --> 00:38:56,086
But second, most shelters have some
form of access to vaccinations,
663
00:38:56,436 --> 00:39:00,636
whether it be general vaccinations and
sometimes rabies through veterinarians
664
00:39:00,636 --> 00:39:02,026
that come and visit the shelter.
665
00:39:02,426 --> 00:39:05,706
So are we increasing access to care?
666
00:39:05,756 --> 00:39:11,696
We're not, because we're just basically
giving, giving someone something that
667
00:39:11,706 --> 00:39:16,426
they already have, while those who
don't have it are still unable to get it
668
00:39:17,017 --> 00:39:17,018
Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
669
00:39:17,018 --> 00:39:18,007
It's tragedy.
670
00:39:18,857 --> 00:39:22,557
It's not improving the care
of animals across the board.
671
00:39:22,677 --> 00:39:23,877
It definitely is not.
672
00:39:25,047 --> 00:39:25,048
Dr. G:
673
00:39:25,048 --> 00:39:30,307
And we think about in human medicine,
right, nurse practitioners can establish
674
00:39:30,347 --> 00:39:36,227
these relationships with human patients
and be able to, to do certain things.
675
00:39:36,707 --> 00:39:40,407
And, you know, we have the registered
veterinary technicians that are
676
00:39:40,407 --> 00:39:44,617
trained and educated that we are saying
that they're not allowed to do this.
677
00:39:45,027 --> 00:39:49,377
And one of the things that scares
me is that we have this veterinary
678
00:39:49,377 --> 00:39:55,427
practitioner, um, degree now that,
this master's degree that is occurring
679
00:39:55,437 --> 00:39:59,997
currently in Colorado which allows
individuals that are not RVTs and are
680
00:39:59,997 --> 00:40:04,497
not veterinarians to do more things
than what technicians are allowed to do.
681
00:40:04,497 --> 00:40:07,707
I mean, we're even talking about
allowing these people to do surgeries.
682
00:40:08,397 --> 00:40:13,437
And we have to be very careful because
I personally don't think that that
683
00:40:13,437 --> 00:40:15,297
position is a benefit to animals.
684
00:40:15,357 --> 00:40:20,967
I think that it is a very dangerous
road that we're going under, and if it
685
00:40:20,967 --> 00:40:23,197
keeps growing, it's gonna come to Ohio.
686
00:40:23,607 --> 00:40:29,867
So what better way to provide a
service by using registered veterinary
687
00:40:29,897 --> 00:40:36,157
technicians as opposed to bringing in
these individuals with a master's degree
688
00:40:36,697 --> 00:40:41,577
that, you know, in, in my opinion,
should not be allowed to do any of these
689
00:40:41,587 --> 00:40:43,167
things without a veterinarian present.
690
00:40:44,177 --> 00:40:44,178
Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
691
00:40:44,178 --> 00:40:45,317
It doesn't make sense.
692
00:40:45,407 --> 00:40:50,177
I mean, it seems OVMA has taken
a position on one hand that's
693
00:40:50,177 --> 00:40:53,987
totally opposite from the position
they are taking on the other bill.
694
00:40:54,137 --> 00:41:01,847
So … But none of it is helpful
to the vast majority of Ohioans
695
00:41:01,927 --> 00:41:06,647
that are hurting regarding, uh,
having access to veterinarian care.
696
00:41:07,477 --> 00:41:09,277
They're hurting 'cause
their animals are hurting.
697
00:41:09,277 --> 00:41:10,817
They're not getting the
care that they need.
698
00:41:12,147 --> 00:41:12,148
Dr. G:
699
00:41:12,148 --> 00:41:12,507
Yeah.
700
00:41:12,577 --> 00:41:16,907
And, you know, bring- bringing
everything kind of together as well,
701
00:41:16,927 --> 00:41:21,177
recently we passed the telemedicine
which allows a veterinarian to
702
00:41:21,177 --> 00:41:23,417
establish a VCPR over the phone.
703
00:41:23,417 --> 00:41:30,967
So a veterinarian is able to assess a
patient over a Zoom call where the pet
704
00:41:30,967 --> 00:41:34,387
owner doesn't know necessarily what
they're looking for, what they're feeling.
705
00:41:34,387 --> 00:41:35,537
They can't listen to them.
706
00:41:35,537 --> 00:41:38,277
They can't listen to their heart
or anything like that to make a
707
00:41:38,497 --> 00:41:42,767
determination of their pet's health,
yet a veterinarian can prescribe
708
00:41:42,767 --> 00:41:45,877
products based on this Zoom call.
709
00:41:46,557 --> 00:41:51,057
And a technician who is trained to
do examinations and do all of these
710
00:41:51,067 --> 00:41:55,777
things, again, we're not trusting them
to create this relationship that is
711
00:41:55,777 --> 00:41:58,727
created otherwise through a Zoom call.
712
00:41:59,067 --> 00:42:04,017
So there's just a huge disconnect,
and my fear is that a lot of this
713
00:42:04,027 --> 00:42:07,457
is just financial, that a lot of
this is just because of money.
714
00:42:07,767 --> 00:42:13,497
It's kinda we're, we're talking about the
inability for the technicians to, to do
715
00:42:13,497 --> 00:42:17,297
these things and we want the veterinarian
to be the one to do it and it just makes
716
00:42:17,297 --> 00:42:19,787
it too much profit over welfare, right?
717
00:42:19,867 --> 00:42:23,307
It, it just comes down to what
are we talking about here?
718
00:42:23,507 --> 00:42:29,027
Are we really doing this because we care
about the, the health of the animal and
719
00:42:29,027 --> 00:42:33,487
the safety of the animal or are we doing
it just to protect somebody's investment?
720
00:42:33,967 --> 00:42:39,657
Because, you know, it- we, we're
saying that we rather have a dog
721
00:42:39,917 --> 00:42:46,017
go without a vaccine than have a
technician give the vaccine, right?
722
00:42:46,017 --> 00:42:48,067
So is that really quality of care?
723
00:42:48,097 --> 00:42:51,587
Is that really promoting
welfare and wellbeing?
724
00:42:51,847 --> 00:42:53,457
I'm- No … in my opinion it's not.
725
00:42:54,227 --> 00:42:54,228
Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
726
00:42:54,228 --> 00:42:54,517
No.
727
00:42:54,878 --> 00:42:57,178
We need to do better
for our animals in Ohio.
728
00:42:59,156 --> 00:43:03,536
And we'll keep pushing for the
passage of these bills every
729
00:43:03,536 --> 00:43:05,936
year till we get this done.
730
00:43:06,086 --> 00:43:12,116
It's needed, and, uh, there's no
excuse not to improve the quality of
731
00:43:12,116 --> 00:43:18,506
care for the animals, um, regardless
of, you might say, OVMA's position.
732
00:43:19,256 --> 00:43:20,116
We know better.
733
00:43:20,729 --> 00:43:20,730
Dr. G:
734
00:43:20,730 --> 00:43:25,449
If the, you know, members of the
public that maybe may feel strongly
735
00:43:25,449 --> 00:43:29,739
about these bills and they want to
be heard, what are ways that they can
736
00:43:29,749 --> 00:43:35,119
help support so that we can get these
common sense animal welfare laws passed?
737
00:43:36,179 --> 00:43:36,180
Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
738
00:43:36,180 --> 00:43:37,339
Thank you for asking that.
739
00:43:37,369 --> 00:43:39,519
Actually, if folks will go
740
00:43:41,809 --> 00:43:42,749
to ohioanimaladvocates.org
741
00:43:43,269 --> 00:43:47,649
and sign up for our newsletters, which not
only would you get monthly newsletters,
742
00:43:47,679 --> 00:43:52,369
but you would be able to get updates on
a variety of bills that are going out.
743
00:43:52,809 --> 00:43:58,019
Um, and in fact, um, we have Congress
Plus now that will send people
744
00:43:58,039 --> 00:44:01,869
information on action alerts, on bills
that are really moving and we need
745
00:44:01,869 --> 00:44:07,419
help, 'cause the reality is we need the
grassroots advocacy to get these passed.
746
00:44:08,069 --> 00:44:13,489
We need every Ohioan in every county,
in every district, to basically let
747
00:44:13,489 --> 00:44:17,159
their legislators know that this is
important to them, it's important
748
00:44:17,159 --> 00:44:18,779
to their family, it's important…
749
00:44:19,019 --> 00:44:23,149
Their, their animals are their family,
and we need to get these bills moved,
750
00:44:23,169 --> 00:44:25,469
and we need to get that message across.
751
00:44:25,769 --> 00:44:30,349
And so we would encourage people to
do that and get active with us on
752
00:44:30,679 --> 00:44:34,019
the type of legislation that matters
to them and their animals at home.
753
00:44:35,349 --> 00:44:35,350
Dr. G:
754
00:44:35,350 --> 00:44:39,489
And Ohio Animal Advocates is a
nonprofit organization, so donations
755
00:44:39,489 --> 00:44:41,839
are always, you know, important.
756
00:44:41,839 --> 00:44:46,589
So if somebody wants to give a donation,
how can they get information on that?
757
00:44:47,829 --> 00:44:47,830
Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
758
00:44:47,830 --> 00:44:50,289
Um, actually, if they get
on the newsletters, it'll
759
00:44:50,289 --> 00:44:51,949
say donate at the bottom.
760
00:44:52,299 --> 00:44:56,439
But all they have to do is actually go
to the website and hit a donation button.
761
00:44:56,849 --> 00:45:01,219
Um, they can actually, you know, look
up our info at Ohio Animal Advocates
762
00:45:01,219 --> 00:45:04,799
to ask more questions if they have
any problems, or give me a call.
763
00:45:04,809 --> 00:45:08,089
My number's on there, and we
can tell people about what
764
00:45:08,119 --> 00:45:09,439
their donation would mean.
765
00:45:09,459 --> 00:45:13,759
But every donation is important,
from, you know, a, a dollar
766
00:45:13,759 --> 00:45:15,689
to $100, it doesn't matter.
767
00:45:15,919 --> 00:45:16,799
This makes a difference.
768
00:45:16,799 --> 00:45:20,549
This enables us to reach everybody
across the state and keep them
769
00:45:20,549 --> 00:45:24,499
informed about important legislation,
as we've talked about today, and
770
00:45:24,499 --> 00:45:27,929
how they can make a difference and
get it passed at the State House.
771
00:45:28,659 --> 00:45:28,660
Dr. G:
772
00:45:28,660 --> 00:45:32,119
And another way that people can follow
Ohio Animal Advocates is on social
773
00:45:32,119 --> 00:45:36,689
media, so on Facebook, Instagram,
and all of the, all of the platforms.
774
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:38,259
There's a lot of updates- LinkedIn Yes.
775
00:45:38,449 --> 00:45:38,939
Yes.
776
00:45:39,219 --> 00:45:42,739
A lot of updates on there so that
people can see what we're working
777
00:45:42,739 --> 00:45:45,559
on and what they can do to help out.
778
00:45:46,569 --> 00:45:46,570
Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
779
00:45:46,570 --> 00:45:47,449
Absolutely.
780
00:45:47,449 --> 00:45:53,267
And I would also point out that besides-
The legislation that we work on and
781
00:45:53,277 --> 00:45:54,957
to get passed, we work on programs.
782
00:45:55,267 --> 00:45:59,617
For example, every year we do
community cat summits in northern and
783
00:45:59,617 --> 00:46:03,447
southern Ohio where people can come,
you know, and interact with people
784
00:46:03,447 --> 00:46:05,177
doing this work within their regions.
785
00:46:05,527 --> 00:46:11,627
We also have statewide resources where we
list in every county pet food pantries,
786
00:46:11,807 --> 00:46:18,467
low-cost spay/neuter and TNR, uh, where
to report cruelty, um, safe havens
787
00:46:18,467 --> 00:46:22,887
to put animals in to get them out of
domestic violence, wildlife rehabbers and
788
00:46:22,887 --> 00:46:25,067
companion animal vets across the state.
789
00:46:25,397 --> 00:46:29,287
You know, we continue to evolve and
grow our organization to meet the
790
00:46:29,287 --> 00:46:35,077
needs of pet owners and Ohioans that
care about other, you know, animals
791
00:46:35,087 --> 00:46:38,837
that are not companion animals,
such as wildlife and farm animals.
792
00:46:39,157 --> 00:46:42,837
You know, we keep growing to meet
the needs of Ohioans and their
793
00:46:42,847 --> 00:46:47,727
positions and their feelings about
the animals that reside in our state.
794
00:46:48,747 --> 00:46:48,748
Dr. G:
795
00:46:48,748 --> 00:46:49,277
Excellent.
796
00:46:49,287 --> 00:46:52,447
So everybody listening,
ohioanimaladvocates.org.
797
00:46:52,507 --> 00:46:57,847
You can click on that, like, look
through the site, learn about all the
798
00:46:57,867 --> 00:47:00,057
amazing things that are happening.
799
00:47:00,437 --> 00:47:04,547
And aside from that, thank you very
much, Vickie, for being here and
800
00:47:04,557 --> 00:47:08,187
for talking about this, this really
important legislation with us.
801
00:47:09,167 --> 00:47:09,168
Vicki Diesner, Esq.:
802
00:47:09,168 --> 00:47:10,907
It's very important legislation.
803
00:47:10,907 --> 00:47:14,087
Please all get involved 'cause
it will make a difference.
804
00:47:14,187 --> 00:47:17,387
Um, you can make a difference, and
that's what's really important to know.
805
00:47:17,927 --> 00:47:23,237
Um, contacting your legislature on a
statewide basis really does matter.
806
00:47:23,267 --> 00:47:24,707
They're here to represent you.
807
00:47:24,717 --> 00:47:26,347
You are their constituent.
808
00:47:27,047 --> 00:47:27,048
Dr. G:
809
00:47:27,048 --> 00:47:27,647
Excellent.
810
00:47:27,687 --> 00:47:30,907
Well, thank you very much for being here,
and for everybody listening, thank you
811
00:47:30,907 --> 00:47:32,487
for listening, and thank you for caring.
