This week's guest is Vicki Diesner, Executive Director of Ohio Animal Advocates. She joins Dr. G to discuss legislation currently being considered at the Ohio Statehouse that could improve the wellbeing of companion animals and those who care about them.

On this episode we discuss:

- Ban on cat declawing for cosmetic or convenience reasons

- Ban on non-veterinarians performing surgical procedures, such as tail docking, ear cropping and dewclaw removal

- Improving access to wellness care through increased registered veterinary technician utilization

Learn about what each policy seeks to achieve, who is opposing the legislations, and what you can do to support these common sense laws that aim to improve the welfare of our companion animals.

Dr. G:

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Hi, and welcome to the

Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today's guest is Vickie Deisner,

executive director of Ohio

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Animal Advocates and past guest.

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So thank you for being here, Vickie.

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Welcome again to the Junction.

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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Thank you for having me, and

it's good to see you again-

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Dr. G:

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and-

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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And your audience

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Dr. G:

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Thank you.

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Well, anybody that wants to learn

more about you, you were a previous

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guest on an episode about Ohio Animal

Advocates, so anybody that's interested

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in learning about the organization and

such can definitely check that out.

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Today we're going to be talking about

some policy and legislation changes

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that we're looking for in Ohio that

have a big impact on companion animals.

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So let's start with the first one, which

is about a statewide ban on cat declawing.

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Can you tell us about that?

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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Yes.

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Um, this is such an important

bill, and certainly we would not

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be the first state to address it.

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Uh, a ban on cat declawing has been

passed in many other states, and we

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are looking at doing that, supporting

that effort because indeed, when you

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declaw a cat, you basically cut off its

first digits on every part of its paws.

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This is not painless, and it's

also not always recoverable.

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There are many animals that suffer

throughout their life, especially how

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the procedure was done, if they get an

infection, and indeed, there are other

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ways to address, the unintentional

damage that can be done in a home

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by a cat that still has its claws.

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Dr. G:

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Yeah, as a veterinarian, one of

the behavioral issues that we see

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is that when you remove a cat's

claws, they're more likely to bite.

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And they're also, because of the pain

and discomfort that they go through

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this, they're more likely to have

other behaviors like inappropriate

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urinations and defecations, right?

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So some of these cats may develop some

really bad issues when, you know, all it

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takes is figuring out how to trim their

nails or use scratching posts and such.

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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And though this is the first year

it's been introduced, and often it

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takes five to seven years to get

animal, uh, legislation passed, it is

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a surprise, you might say, at the lack

of movement of this particular bill

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in the Ohio State House at this time.

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Dr. G:

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And it's not something

that is unheard of, right?

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Because there are other states

that have enacted declaw bans.

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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Absolutely.

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Um, one thing we are surprised about,

to be honest, is, some of the opposition

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that has come up recently, and,

actually from, you might say, people

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who would- we would believe would

partner on this issue, and that's the

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Ohio Veterinary Medical Association.

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Their reason is that a ban would

take the medical decisions away

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from the actual veterinarian.

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But indeed, um, you know, people who

do get this procedure done for their

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animals are generally not informed

as to the potential side effects and

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consequences of doing this procedure.

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It has, over time, lost its attraction

to many owners, you might say, who are

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aware of this, but the majority are

not aware of what can happen to a cat,

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what the actual effects on the cat are.

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In fact, unfortunately, a lot of

people think it's just like cutting

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their nails, and it's not that simple.

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It's cutting basically their

paws, the end of their paws off.

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And, um, we really wish this would be

looked at further, and we certainly

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will keep pushing it year after year.

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But we are surprised about

this particular opposition.

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Dr. G:

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In past times, we've always thought

about people thinking, you know,

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"I got a cat, I gotta get it spayed

or neutered and declawed," right?

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Like, it just went hand-in-hand.

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And it's over time we have learned, right?

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Back then we didn't understand the

long-term effects, we don't understand

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the, the issues, and it's something that

is done more as a convenience more so than

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for any real benefit for, for either side.

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And one of the things that I found out

is because when I started, uh, working

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as a veterinarian, I used to declaw cats,

and I didn't like it, but I would do it.

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And I would look for, you know,

what's the best way that I can do

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it that would prevent discomfort

and pain, you know, a lot of pain

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medication, pain control, use of laser.

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And even with all of those things,

I still saw that the suffering, the

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long-term suffering was just not okay for

me from a moral and ethical standpoint.

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And when I stopped doing it, I thought

a lot of people are gonna be mad

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because, you know, it's something

that, again, people expect to do.

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And I was very happily surprised that it

was not very difficult to change people's

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minds because the pet owner looks for

the veterinarian for recommendations.

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So they would come in and say, you

know, "I need to schedule to get my

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cat declawed," and we would talk to

them and say, "We don't, we don't

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recommend it and this is why."

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And they would say, "Oh, I was not aware."

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And, you know, it, it would take giving

them resources like, again, cat scratching

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posts, how to trim nails, different things

that can be done, and we did not find

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a huge opposition from the pet owners.

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And I'm very happy to say that

it's very seldom that people ask us

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anymore if that's something that we do

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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I, I assume that shows a trend of the

time that the consumers are more educated-

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Dr. G:

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Yeah, absolutely … the

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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clients.

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Dr. G:

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Yeah.

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And that's our job as

veterinarians, right?

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Is to educate the, the client so that

they can take better care of their pet.

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It's, it's hard to think that

a person would purposefully

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wanna harm their cat, right?

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So it's, it's all about education.

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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Out of curiosity, what happened with the

clients that when you used to do it, you

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know, and the after effects was the animal

was hurting, were the clients surprised?

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Um, you know, I'm sure you gave them

as possible consequence that happening,

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but w- how did they feel afterwards?

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Dr. G:

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So I think that we had very few issues and

side effects, mostly because of everything

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that we were doing in the process, right?

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Right.

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We were taking it as a very serious

surgery, not just as an elective, we're

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just taking these claws out and removing.

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But I think that, you know, we were

very open and honest with the clients,

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explaining to them these are the

possible things that can happen.

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So in reality, when there was

a side effect or a problem,

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it's, it was expected.

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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Thank you for sharing that

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Dr. G:

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Yeah.

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I will have to say, uh, one of the…

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We, we did see patients from other

clinics, and especially after we

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stopped doing it, that would come to

us because the cats have developed some

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kind of problem, either pain, regrowth,

inability to use the, the paw properly,

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and again, the inappropriate urinations.

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And, and most of those people did not have

that communication with the veterinarian

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about what to expect, and they were

completely taken by surprise and upset

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about the fact that they did something to

harm their cat that they were not aware

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that could be a potential consequence.

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So, um, so yeah, it just, it just

again goes along to, to that part of

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communication is so important between

the veterinarian and the pet owner.

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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Absolutely.

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Dr. G:

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One of the things that I also want to

bring, bring up is the fact that the,

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the concern for the opposition is that it

takes away decisions from veterinarians.

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But in reality, it doesn't, because if

a veterinarian feels that the declaw

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procedure is necessary for the health

of that cat, they are allowed to do so.

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What we're talking about is not

allowing declawing, again, just for

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convenience issues because you don't

want to trim your cat's nails so it

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doesn't, you know, tear up your stuff.

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So if I, as a veterinarian, feel…

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Uh, a great example that I can say is

cats that have their dewclaws, that

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have double dewclaws, and those dewclaws

get overgrow and grow into the pads,

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that's something that we do because

it is giving a benefit to the cat.

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It is something that is necessary.

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So a law like this would not prevent

me from doing something like that that

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is in ben- in the benefit of the cat.

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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And, and I will tell you that our

grassroots advocates, the ones

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who, um, work with community cats,

with, um, kittens, and just cats in

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general, this was the most important

bill out of the session to them

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Dr. G:

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So we're going from not being

able to declaw cats to now

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basically mutilating puppies.

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So how about you tell us about SB 232?

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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232 is, um, a very important bill

that you might say the folks that

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have worked on puppy mill issues in

Ohio have worked toward for 15 years.

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And what that would do is

basically eliminate the breeders

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from doing any surgeries.

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Um, they have done it for years.

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There has been problems with animals

dying from massive infections, from

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bleeding out, from you name it.

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Um, it can be a very debauched surgery.

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But, um, particularly when it's,

What they're doing is they're

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doing it for cosmetic purposes.

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They're doing tail docking,

dewclaw removal, and ear cropping.

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And particularly with the tail, um, you

know, you're cutting through bone, you

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know, I, I don't need to tell you that,

but you're cutting through bone, you're

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cutting through soft tissue, you're cut-

cutting through blood vessels, and, I

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mean, it could really hurt the animal.

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And just give them enough to,

to hold on when they're bigger.

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And it's gonna be quick.

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They're gonna yelp.

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We're gonna lay them on there,

get them all done, then put them

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back in here and get mom in.

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I don't put any kind of

antibiotic or anything on there.

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I want her to come in.

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I want her to lick them.

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If she's licking them, she's

pulling that skin as she licks them.

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And then it'll heal.

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It makes a better tail.

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We've banded them before.

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It doesn't make a pretty tail.

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You've, you've seen bands slip.

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Yeah.

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And when a band slips, it,

it doesn't, it's not good.

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So dikes, alcohol wipes, uh, 10 pups

here, so I'll probably wipe it off

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halfway through, but it's gonna go fast.

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You ready?

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You ready?

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If you're gonna be a vet.

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So I'm gonna hold it like this.

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And this is the way it's gonna

be for its life, so here we go.

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Thanks, guys

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This one's wiggly

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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On top of it, if the breeders are

doing it, they don't, they now are

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possibly allowed to use pain medication,

if they do, but they definitely

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aren't allowed to use anesthesia,

and these procedures are supposed to

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be done within a certain timeframe.

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Oftentime they're done over that

timeframe, which means the puppy

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is going to incur more pain.

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We have an ongoing problem with this

with the Ohio Department of Agriculture

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because the law as it was written in 2018

specifically stated that any euthanasia

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or surgery required to be performed

had to be done by a veterinarian.

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The Ohio Department of Agriculture

chose to define required as medically

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required, and then they decided to

say anything cosmetic re- required

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didn't fall into that category, so

the breeders could keep doing it.

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We believe this is because the

breeders wanted to keep doing this,

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and ODA capitulated to the breeders.

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Um, the reality is it

doesn't benefit the animals.

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And the odd thing is, again, even though

this was written and this was part of

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also trying to assure that, uh, a l-

uh, you know, this was a law to add

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additional restrictions not allowing

the Ohio Department of Agriculture

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to do announced inspections, because

of course they're gonna clean up

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their act before somebody shows up.

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And indeed, within that timeframe, a

lot of those breeders are basically,

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you know, calling the rescues and

saying, "Come and get these animals

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or we're gonna kill them in two days

because ODA's coming to inspect us."

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And also defining how, you know, they

are defined as a commercial dog breeder.

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I mean, if you say there's so

many, you know, intact female

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dogs that can reproduce, but

then you add in a definition of,

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uh, you have to sell 40 puppies.

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There's a lot of breeders that do not

make records, and you can't prove that.

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So we really need to clamp

down on these three areas,

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but particularly the surgical.

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And oddly enough, then again, the

opposition, uh, for this particular bill

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is again the Ohio Veterinary Medical

Association, which has said that this

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requirement would actually, uh, burden

rural communities and their clinics

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because access is, um, very limited.

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And but why you would ever allow…

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You know, you're looking at breeders

that hopefully they have a high school

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education at least, but you're allowing

them to do surgeries when you require

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veterinarians to go through all the

years they do of education and clinical

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experience to be doing these surgeries.

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It doesn't make sense.

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And I will throw in, too, um, even

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and knew at the time because there were

pictures showing this, that surgical

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equipment oftentimes wasn't used.

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It could be, um, hedge clippers,

it could be a nail, uh, clippers,

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it could be, um, uh, you know, just

even a slice of, you know, a steel

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slice to cut through, you name it.

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But also there wasn't sterility in

this, and there wasn't antibiotics

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given to the animals afterwards.

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Um, but, you know, Ohio Department

of Agriculture said they were gonna

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give the breeders a how-to manual.

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We still know in 2026 that this is

not being followed, the how-to manual.

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And so unfortunately it isn't

that the breeders have improved

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how they do the surgeries.

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It's, it's totally unacceptable.

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And, um, I, I would say according to the

advocates we have, again, the folks that

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care about the issues of puppy mills, this

is their most important bill they want

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to work on and, and believe very strongly

that this should not be happening.

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And yet, um, I think they would be

surprised that the Ohio Veterinary Medical

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Association would not support this bill.

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Dr. G:

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I think, in my opinion, it is the dumbest

distinction to say that a surgery is no

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longer surgical if it is cosmetic, right?

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Because then all of these people

that are doing botched plastic

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surgeries in strip malls, then they

are not practicing medicine without

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a license because it's cosmetic.

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I mean, it makes no difference, right?

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It's if you're doing surgery, if

you are cutting through skin, you're

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cutting through bone, you're doing

a surgical procedure, it is surgery.

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This whole- Yes … it's cosmetic is

just, like, I mean, we talk about the

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intent of the law, and this definition

as far as trying to figure out what

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the intent of the law is just…

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I mean, I don't have

any other better words.

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It's just the dumbest thing I've heard.

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And- Yeah

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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And it wasn't defined that

way within the law itself.

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That happens to be the convenient

interpretation that the Ohio

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Department of Agriculture chooses.

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Dr. G:

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And, you know, when they discussed about

giving them an instruction manual, it's

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like it doesn't matter if you give them

an instruction manual because they're

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not able to get their hands on veterinary

products, on veterinary supplies, right?

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So okay, they cannot get their hands

on any kind of local anesthetic,

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topical anesthetic that they

can, uh, legally administer.

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They cannot get their hands on any

kind of pain medication or antibiotics

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or anything that they can legally

administer to a companion animal

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because they're not a veterinarian.

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And a veterinarian cannot just prescribe

a medication or a product without having

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seen that pet because that is what this

VCPR that we're gonna be discussing about,

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the veterinary-patient-client relationship

stipulates that a veterinarian has to

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have a relationship with the pet owner,

which in this case would be the breeder,

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and have a relationship with the patient,

which would be that individual dog.

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So, you know, there is no way that

a veterinarian can legally just say,

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"Yes, use this for your puppies"

when you're doing this procedure

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that you should not even be doing.

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And, you know, it's…

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Most veterinarians that I know are

opposed to this happening just because,

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again, it's a surgery procedure, and

like you mentioned, we go through all

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this schooling and education, and we

learn all these things to be able to

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do surgery, and then you take somebody

without an education, and you give

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them something sharp and tell them that

it's okay to mutilate these animals.

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So it just doesn't make any sense at all.

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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I, I would add when you bring up the

point that most veterinarians that you

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know would not agree to this, um, when I

worked for the ASPCA and we were trying

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to run a bill in Illinois that would

allow veterinarians to get coverage, um,

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and be approved to come across states to

deal with natural disasters of animals

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or manmade disasters, if it was big dog

fighting rings or puppy mill issues, that

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the Illinois, um, VMA was against it.

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And when actually talking to a number

of the vets in Illinois to try to

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understand if they could e- explain

to us why is your VMA against it,

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they said they didn't know 'cause they

really weren't involved in the VMA.

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And in, you know, f- questioning them

further, you know, and asking why,

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they said the cost of belonging to the

VMA as a member was so high that they

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basically belonged every third year maybe

to be able to get all their CEs done

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within that timeframe, and that was it.

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They couldn't afford to belong every year.

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So when we then asked, "Well, then who

sits on their VMA policy committees?

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Who sits on the leadership?"

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They did not know, but further

investigation showed that a lot of times

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veterinarians were able to do that,

become more active, when maybe they

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worked for a commercial dog breeder

that would basically pay for their full

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membership to the VMA and encourage

their involvement in policy issues.

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Same way for factory

farms or other issues.

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So it kind of points to, does…

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I began to wonder and still wonder who

really basically sets the leadership

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and policy decisions for the VMAs.

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It's certainly not the entire

veterinarian community in that state

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Dr. G:

339

Yeah, I think that, you know, the, the

OVMA, like if you go to their website,

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they have a lot of really useful

resources for veterinarians, especially

341

like for the mandatory reporting law

and for, and for different things.

342

And it has a lot of really good

information, but I don't know that

343

a lot of veterinarians know how to

access it, and again, I don't know

344

that veterinarians necessarily have

a voice into the things that the

345

OVMA is representing on our behalf.

346

And I mean, I have been a, a member of

the Ohio Veterinary Medical Association

347

since I graduated vet school, and it has

expired here and there and, you know,

348

come, come conference time it's like,

"Oh yeah, I gotta, I gotta renew that."

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But, but yeah, I think that as

veterinarians we have to be more

350

aware of what the Veterinary Medical

Association stands for, so because

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they're in, in essence representing

us as members, and if they're not

352

representing what the majority of

veterinarians want, then it's not really

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representing veterinary medicine in Ohio.

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

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And, and then actually they're not

working on the change that is really

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need for the veterinarians in every

aspect of trenches they're in, whether

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it's working with small animals, large

animals, and, you know, the reality

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of everything that they encounter.

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Dr. G:

360

Now for , for House Bill 664, and this,

this I have to say, I mean, I have

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been working on, on trying to elevate

veterinary technicians for a really,

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really, really long time because I

think that they're underutilized.

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I think that a lot of veterinary

technicians are leaving the

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field just because they're

bored, and they're not well-paid.

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And these are individuals that go through

school, get an associate's degree.

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Like, they have to do

continuing education.

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They have to do so much to be called

a registered veterinary technician.

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And, you know, to, to a sense,

they are the same as what we

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would expect a nurse to do.

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Actually, they do more than nurses

do because they have to do so many

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different things for, for their patients,

and they're just not given the, the

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ability to do all of these things.

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Um, so one of the things is that as

a mobile veterinarian prim- primarily

374

doing affordable and accessible care, I

see the need for, in, in particularly in

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rural areas of Ohio, the need for more

access to wellness care, to vaccinations,

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to be preventive, um, so that…

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You know, the- these individuals

don't have access to veterinarians,

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so definitely if their animals get

sick, they're not gonna be able to

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take them somewhere to be, to be seen.

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But if we can prevent some

of these diseases, I mean,

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that's, that's a huge impact.

382

So House Bill 664 is about allowing

registered veterinary technicians to

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administer vaccines and antiparasitic

medications to companion animals without

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a veterinarian present, but under the

direction of a licensed veterinarian.

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Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

386

Um, you know, looking at House Bill 664,

it would be nothing but a benefit from

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what many of the, not only advocates, but

the rescues, the humane shelters we've

388

talked to, um, you know, animal welfare

professionals, that they see the need for

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this because there's been a veterinarian

shortage since before the pandemic.

390

There's been a spay/neuter shortage

that's been going on over the last

391

decade that is putting us back at the

point of, you know, numbers of homeless

392

animals like there was a decade ago.

393

Um, when you don't get spay/neuter a lot

of times, um, you're also not getting

394

wellness care for the animals, and

you're not getting all the vaccines.

395

And at a time in particular when Ohio,

we do not have rabies vaccinations

396

being required and mandated throughout

the state, and yet we passed dangerous

397

dog law because there's a concern about

an increase in bites, um, why aren't

398

we having mandatory rabies vaccines?

399

But we can't do it with

the current vet shortage.

400

So indeed, as you said, utilizing

these people to do shots, which

401

is not really that difficult.

402

Why we can't move forward in this,

you might say, you know, minimal

403

way, because certainly the RVTs

could do a lot more under the

404

direction of a veterinarian's care.

405

Um, it needs to happen, and the most

astonishing thing is aga- once again,

406

we have the Ohio Veterinary Medical

Association opposing it, saying that

407

basically, you know, they believe the VCPR

408

establishment should only be reserved

for the veterinarian, but it was my

409

understanding from what I heard from

the vets that, you know, the technicians

410

would be doing it along with the approval

and the oversight of the veterinarian.

411

Maybe they're not right on site,

but here's the strange thing.

412

Where you have the most trouble of

getting the rabies vaccination is in

413

the rural area, and didn't OVMA just

say it was okay to do surgeries in

414

the rural areas because there was an

overburden on the clinics, but it's not

415

okay to do rabies shots with a tech-

with a technician under the supervision

416

of a veterinarian in a rural area?

417

How could surgeries be okay

and vaccinations are not?

418

It makes no sense.

419

It's, it's just, it's total opposite.

420

It makes no sense.

421

There's no other way to explain it.

422

It's, you know, hypercritical.

423

Dr. G:

424

And surgeries by laypeople, right?

425

Like, not even surgeries by a

registered veterinary technicians.

426

We're talking about laypeople doing,

um, surgeries, and we're asking for

427

registered veterinary technicians

to be able to give vaccinations.

428

And registered veterinary technicians,

you know, they go through a two-year

429

schooling, and veterinarians, we

go through four-year schooling.

430

But our s- our education is vastly

different because we have to do more

431

diagnosis and surgery and that kind

of stuff, whereas the technicians

432

are more, how you say, educated into

the wellness, into the examination,

433

into, uh, how to identify abnormal

things, and then we trust them to

434

do induct- anesthesia inductions and

prepping and all of that stuff, which

435

requires a lot of education and talent.

436

So, you know, in, in my experience in

most veterinary clinics, veterinary

437

technicians are doing the majority

of the work with the patient.

438

The technicians are the ones…

439

You know, if a patient comes in

and they have an ear infection,

440

the tech is the one that goes

into the room, talks to the owner.

441

The owner says, "My dog

has been shaking its head."

442

Before the veterinarian is even in the

room, the technician has collected the

443

sample, made the swab, analyzed it,

and given the, the veterinarian the

444

information about what they have found.

445

So, you know, we're w- we trust them

to do all these things, but then all

446

of a sudden, just because of this

hangup, we're saying that they're

447

not allowed to, to give vaccines.

448

But then the, you know, the The switch

is that now there was a change into how

449

the legislation was proposed initially.

450

Ohio Statehouse: For its fourth

hearing and recognize Vice

451

Chair Newman for a motion.

452

Thank you, Mr.

453

Chairman.

454

I motion to amend with 136_2820.

455

The amendment is in order.

456

Will the member please

explain the amendment?

457

Yes, sir, will do.

458

Thank you.

459

This amendment defines covered animal

to mean a sheltered dog or cat, thus

460

limiting a registered veterinary

technician to dispense and administer

461

vaccines and antiparasitic medic-

medication to only shelter dogs and

462

cats instead of all dogs and cats.

463

Are there any objections to the amendment?

464

Hearing none, the amendment is accepted.

465

Dr. G:

466

Initially it was for technicians to

be able to give vaccinations to any

467

dog or cat, and then it got changed

to they would only be allowed to do

468

it to shelter dogs and cats, which

there is no difference between the two.

469

The only difference is ownership.

470

But we're saying that legally they

are okay to give a vaccine to a

471

dog that is not owned by a, by

an individual, but not okay to do

472

it to an, to a pet that is owned.

473

That makes absolutely zero legal sense.

474

Ohio Statehouse: For its fourth

hearing and recognize Vice

475

Chair Newman for a motion.

476

Thank you, Mr.

477

Chairman.

478

I motion to amend with 136_2820.

479

The amendment is in order.

480

Will the member please

explain the amendment?

481

Yes, sir, will do.

482

Thank you.

483

This amendment defines covered animal

to mean a sheltered dog or cat, thus

484

limiting a registered veterinary

technician to dispense and administer

485

vaccines and antiparasitic medic-

medication to only shelter dogs and

486

cats instead of all dogs and cats.

487

Are there any objections to the amendment?

488

Hearing none, the amendment is accepted.

489

With us today, Alba Gonzalez, to

provide interested party testimony

490

Ohio Statehouse: Welcome to Ag Committee,

and you can proceed when you're ready.

491

Dr. G:

492

Thank you so much.

493

All right.

494

Hi.

495

Ch- Chair Klopfenstein, Vice Chair

Newman, Ranking Minority Member

496

Miller, and distinguished members of

the House Agriculture Committee, my

497

name is Michelle Gonzalez, and I'm a

veterinarian, licensed and practicing in

498

the state of Ohio for the last 26 years.

499

I am the founder and medical direction

of the … director of the Rascal Unit,

500

which is a mobile veterinary clinic

providing affordable and accessible

501

care throughout the state of Ohio.

502

And I'm also the director of Rascal

Charities, which is a 501c3 nonprofit

503

organization with a mission to assist

individuals, shelters, and animal

504

caretakers in an effort to reduce

shelter over- overpopulation, preventable

505

diseases, and economic euthanasia.

506

I would like to thank Representatives

Fischer and Dieter for their

507

commitment to sponsoring this important

legislation, and I'm speaking on

508

behalf of myself and my organization.

509

I'm here to support the House

Bill, but as originally introduced.

510

20 years ago, I started the Rascal

unit because I saw a need for

511

services that provided veterinary

care to individuals in need.

512

And in doing so, I learned that most

people wanna take care of their animals.

513

A lot of people are unable to, whether

it be for access because they can't

514

get to a veterinarian, or it can be

because of affordability, or even

515

just simply for a lack of education.

516

So I felt that as a veterinarian,

having the veterinary oath, it's

517

my duty to make sure that all

animals have access to, to care.

518

20 years later, that has not changed.

519

So the reality that we face today is a

shortage in access to veterinary care.

520

Um, and the House Bill 664 as

originally presented provides a

521

solution because we're using registered

veterinary technician, and these

522

are people who undergo schooling.

523

They are licensed in the state of

Ohio, and we would be asking them

524

pr- to provide preventive care under

the direction, but without the direct

525

supervision of a licensed veterinarian.

526

So by allowing these RVTs to provide

vaccinations and wellness care without

527

the need of a veterinarian physically

present, we aim to decrease the risk

528

of preventable diseases and keep

animals and people safer as some

529

of these conditions are transmitted

from human-- from animals to humans.

530

The new sub bill fails to provide help to

communities in need of pet wellness care.

531

It's useful to some shelters, but

the reality is that many shelter

532

organizations already provide their own

vaccines to their own animals, so it's

533

not really going to increase access.

534

Uh, the only exception is rabies

vaccination, and currently less

535

than half the, um, counties in Ohio

require rabies vaccination by law.

536

So it's not something that shelters

may necessarily use on their own.

537

So the goal of access to care is

increasing the resources to communities.

538

And again, we are eliminating the ability

to provide this service to pet owners.

539

Um, we're limiting the services to

shelters, and by doing so, we do

540

not have the opportunity to prevent

deadly contagious diseases such as

541

parvovirus, distemper, and rabies.

542

The new bill seeks to allow veterinary

technicians to administer rabies

543

vaccination and others to shelter animals

only and not to community animals.

544

But the only difference between a shelter

animal and an owned pet is just ownership.

545

It's not produ- productive to create

a legal distinction based on ownership

546

when all companion animals, owned and

or, and unowned, are considered the same.

547

And this is not my definition.

548

This is a definition by

the Ohio Supreme Court.

549

House Bill 664 as originally drafted

provides services to all companion animals

550

by registered veterinary technicians

under the direction of a veterinarian

551

following protocols established by the

veterinarian to prevent technicians from

552

acting independently and without guidance.

553

This would be a great advancement

in access to veterinary care in

554

both animal and public health.

555

So I respectfully urge you to support

HB 664 in its original form because

556

all companion animals should have the

opportunity to receive these services.

557

Thank you for listening, and I'm

happy to answer any questions.

558

Chairman Klopfenstein: Thank you for being

here today and offering, uh, testimony.

559

Are there any questions

from the committee?

560

Representative Brent

561

Representative Brent: Thank you, Chairman.

562

From the chairman to the witness,

thank you for coming and providing

563

your testimony as a subject

matter expert, um, in this space.

564

My question, though, is obviously

there's been some interest party

565

needing to get us to this point where

this amendment is gonna be may or,

566

may or m- may or may not be, will be-

well, has been added at this point.

567

Who do you feel like are the

winners and the losers with

568

adding on this new language?

569

Specifically name them by name.

570

Dr. G:

571

Yeah, absolutely.

572

I honestly don't think that

there's a lot of winners.

573

I think there's more losers, just

because access to care is a huge problem.

574

And I speak from personal

experience because most of my

575

work has been in rural Ohio.

576

I travel through a lot of rural

communities, especially Appalachia

577

communities, where the access to

care is limited by distance, but

578

it's also limited by the number of

veterinarians and, and by cost of care.

579

So those are the, those are the animals

that really need this, this service.

580

And the shelters are affected, but the

shelters are affected because if the

581

community animals are not vaccinated,

then those animals, when they enter

582

the shelters, then they're going

to be transmitting these diseases

583

to the animals in the shelter.

584

So it's beneficial to the shelters,

um, and to communities for the

585

community animals to be vaccinated

586

Representative Brent: Follow-up

Follow-up Thank you, Chairman.

587

So why do you think this amendment

was even included out of everything?

588

We've gotten to this point, and this bill

has, has been around long enough, but

589

what do you think was the motivation?

590

Dr. G:

591

In my opinion, honestly, I think

that it was due to appease Ohio

592

Veterinary Medical Association.

593

Mm.

594

Because they…

595

I, I understand that they oppose companion

animals that are owned being vaccinated

596

by technicians, but they are okay or at

least neutral with, um, shelter animals

597

being, being vaccinated by technicians.

598

And realistically, the whole

question behind the rabies

599

vaccination is a legal one.

600

So if a technician is legally allowed

to vaccinate a shelter animal, why

601

would they not be legally allowed

to vaccinate an owned animal?

602

If we're thinking about the fact

that if the technician vaccinates the

603

animal at the shelter and then that

animal is, is adopted out, then that

604

animal becomes owned and still has been

vaccinated by a veterinary technician.

605

Representative Brent: So Chairman,

just for clarification, the, the

606

witness is more or less trying to make

sure that all animals get vaccinated?

607

It's…

608

I'm saying it just for her,

but I have to say it to you.

609

Protocol.

610

Dr. G:

611

Yes.

612

Representative Brent: Okay.

613

Dr. G:

614

Sorry.

615

Representative Brent: Thank you.

616

Thank you, Chairman.

617

Chairman Klopfenstein:

Any additional questions?

618

So having listened to your testimony, you

like the direction the bill is headed, but

619

your thought is it does not go far enough.

620

Dr. G:

621

Yeah, absolutely.

622

For us to make an impact, we need to

make it accessible to the majority

623

of animals, not limited to shelter

animals, especially when, again,

624

shelters have a little bit more access

to care compared to the community.

625

Chairman Klopfenstein: Okay.

626

Any additional questions?

627

Representative Sims.

628

Representative Sims: Thank you, Mr.

629

Chairman.

630

So are you now…

631

Are you still IP, or are you an opponent?

632

Dr. G:

633

Well, I don't want to be an opponent.

634

I've been wanting technicians to

be elevated for a really long time,

635

and, and I am biased because I have

amazing technicians that work for me.

636

So…

637

And I know that I would trust them

to make decisions, uh, with their

638

education and with their experience.

639

So I'm not…

640

I don't wanna oppose because I don't

want it to go backwards, but I am not in

641

agreement w- the way that it is, I guess.

642

So that's, that's why I

presented as an interested party.

643

This is, this is something that

is extremely important to me.

644

I don't want it to just go away, but

I feel that if it's gonna go forward,

645

it needs to go forward the right way

646

Representative Sims: Follow-up?

647

S- so based on your expert opinion,

does this halt really expanding

648

access to care for, for animals?

649

Dr. G:

650

If we're only doing it for shelters,

it is not expanding access to

651

care for animals, in my opinion

652

Representative Sims: Thank you.

653

Thank you, Mr.

654

Chairman.

655

Dr. G:

656

That was one of the, one of the

things that I was discussing is

657

this is an access to care bill.

658

So we are looking to provide

the access to vaccination to

659

the majority of dogs and cats.

660

And by making it only be to the shelters,

first, you have a huge population that

661

would not be able to benefit from this.

662

But second, most shelters have some

form of access to vaccinations,

663

whether it be general vaccinations and

sometimes rabies through veterinarians

664

that come and visit the shelter.

665

So are we increasing access to care?

666

We're not, because we're just basically

giving, giving someone something that

667

they already have, while those who

don't have it are still unable to get it

668

Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

669

It's tragedy.

670

It's not improving the care

of animals across the board.

671

It definitely is not.

672

Dr. G:

673

And we think about in human medicine,

right, nurse practitioners can establish

674

these relationships with human patients

and be able to, to do certain things.

675

And, you know, we have the registered

veterinary technicians that are

676

trained and educated that we are saying

that they're not allowed to do this.

677

And one of the things that scares

me is that we have this veterinary

678

practitioner, um, degree now that,

this master's degree that is occurring

679

currently in Colorado which allows

individuals that are not RVTs and are

680

not veterinarians to do more things

than what technicians are allowed to do.

681

I mean, we're even talking about

allowing these people to do surgeries.

682

And we have to be very careful because

I personally don't think that that

683

position is a benefit to animals.

684

I think that it is a very dangerous

road that we're going under, and if it

685

keeps growing, it's gonna come to Ohio.

686

So what better way to provide a

service by using registered veterinary

687

technicians as opposed to bringing in

these individuals with a master's degree

688

that, you know, in, in my opinion,

should not be allowed to do any of these

689

things without a veterinarian present.

690

Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

691

It doesn't make sense.

692

I mean, it seems OVMA has taken

a position on one hand that's

693

totally opposite from the position

they are taking on the other bill.

694

So … But none of it is helpful

to the vast majority of Ohioans

695

that are hurting regarding, uh,

having access to veterinarian care.

696

They're hurting 'cause

their animals are hurting.

697

They're not getting the

care that they need.

698

Dr. G:

699

Yeah.

700

And, you know, bring- bringing

everything kind of together as well,

701

recently we passed the telemedicine

which allows a veterinarian to

702

establish a VCPR over the phone.

703

So a veterinarian is able to assess a

patient over a Zoom call where the pet

704

owner doesn't know necessarily what

they're looking for, what they're feeling.

705

They can't listen to them.

706

They can't listen to their heart

or anything like that to make a

707

determination of their pet's health,

yet a veterinarian can prescribe

708

products based on this Zoom call.

709

And a technician who is trained to

do examinations and do all of these

710

things, again, we're not trusting them

to create this relationship that is

711

created otherwise through a Zoom call.

712

So there's just a huge disconnect,

and my fear is that a lot of this

713

is just financial, that a lot of

this is just because of money.

714

It's kinda we're, we're talking about the

inability for the technicians to, to do

715

these things and we want the veterinarian

to be the one to do it and it just makes

716

it too much profit over welfare, right?

717

It, it just comes down to what

are we talking about here?

718

Are we really doing this because we care

about the, the health of the animal and

719

the safety of the animal or are we doing

it just to protect somebody's investment?

720

Because, you know, it- we, we're

saying that we rather have a dog

721

go without a vaccine than have a

technician give the vaccine, right?

722

So is that really quality of care?

723

Is that really promoting

welfare and wellbeing?

724

I'm- No … in my opinion it's not.

725

Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

726

No.

727

We need to do better

for our animals in Ohio.

728

And we'll keep pushing for the

passage of these bills every

729

year till we get this done.

730

It's needed, and, uh, there's no

excuse not to improve the quality of

731

care for the animals, um, regardless

of, you might say, OVMA's position.

732

We know better.

733

Dr. G:

734

If the, you know, members of the

public that maybe may feel strongly

735

about these bills and they want to

be heard, what are ways that they can

736

help support so that we can get these

common sense animal welfare laws passed?

737

Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

738

Thank you for asking that.

739

Actually, if folks will go

740

to ohioanimaladvocates.org

741

and sign up for our newsletters, which not

only would you get monthly newsletters,

742

but you would be able to get updates on

a variety of bills that are going out.

743

Um, and in fact, um, we have Congress

Plus now that will send people

744

information on action alerts, on bills

that are really moving and we need

745

help, 'cause the reality is we need the

grassroots advocacy to get these passed.

746

We need every Ohioan in every county,

in every district, to basically let

747

their legislators know that this is

important to them, it's important

748

to their family, it's important…

749

Their, their animals are their family,

and we need to get these bills moved,

750

and we need to get that message across.

751

And so we would encourage people to

do that and get active with us on

752

the type of legislation that matters

to them and their animals at home.

753

Dr. G:

754

And Ohio Animal Advocates is a

nonprofit organization, so donations

755

are always, you know, important.

756

So if somebody wants to give a donation,

how can they get information on that?

757

Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

758

Um, actually, if they get

on the newsletters, it'll

759

say donate at the bottom.

760

But all they have to do is actually go

to the website and hit a donation button.

761

Um, they can actually, you know, look

up our info at Ohio Animal Advocates

762

to ask more questions if they have

any problems, or give me a call.

763

My number's on there, and we

can tell people about what

764

their donation would mean.

765

But every donation is important,

from, you know, a, a dollar

766

to $100, it doesn't matter.

767

This makes a difference.

768

This enables us to reach everybody

across the state and keep them

769

informed about important legislation,

as we've talked about today, and

770

how they can make a difference and

get it passed at the State House.

771

Dr. G:

772

And another way that people can follow

Ohio Animal Advocates is on social

773

media, so on Facebook, Instagram,

and all of the, all of the platforms.

774

There's a lot of updates- LinkedIn Yes.

775

Yes.

776

A lot of updates on there so that

people can see what we're working

777

on and what they can do to help out.

778

Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

779

Absolutely.

780

And I would also point out that besides-

The legislation that we work on and

781

to get passed, we work on programs.

782

For example, every year we do

community cat summits in northern and

783

southern Ohio where people can come,

you know, and interact with people

784

doing this work within their regions.

785

We also have statewide resources where we

list in every county pet food pantries,

786

low-cost spay/neuter and TNR, uh, where

to report cruelty, um, safe havens

787

to put animals in to get them out of

domestic violence, wildlife rehabbers and

788

companion animal vets across the state.

789

You know, we continue to evolve and

grow our organization to meet the

790

needs of pet owners and Ohioans that

care about other, you know, animals

791

that are not companion animals,

such as wildlife and farm animals.

792

You know, we keep growing to meet

the needs of Ohioans and their

793

positions and their feelings about

the animals that reside in our state.

794

Dr. G:

795

Excellent.

796

So everybody listening,

ohioanimaladvocates.org.

797

You can click on that, like, look

through the site, learn about all the

798

amazing things that are happening.

799

And aside from that, thank you very

much, Vickie, for being here and

800

for talking about this, this really

important legislation with us.

801

Vicki Diesner, Esq.:

802

It's very important legislation.

803

Please all get involved 'cause

it will make a difference.

804

Um, you can make a difference, and

that's what's really important to know.

805

Um, contacting your legislature on a

statewide basis really does matter.

806

They're here to represent you.

807

You are their constituent.

808

Dr. G:

809

Excellent.

810

Well, thank you very much for being here,

and for everybody listening, thank you

811

for listening, and thank you for caring.