Shownotes
In today's episode we are tackling one of the most harmful societal constructs that has persisted for generations. And that is telling boys and men that having feelings is girly, that they aren’t allowed to cry and that showing emotions is a sign of weakness.
Listen in as I talk with author Jim Young who’s book Expansive Intimacy: How “Tough Guys” Defeat Burnout, explores the rules of masculinity that force men into a false choice: that choice being either face shame by embracing their inner desires for meaningful connection, or invite burnout by following the harsh rules that require men to shun emotions and emphasize achievement.
Drink of the week….Third Man Cocktail
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Julie Brown:
Jim Young
Transcripts
In today's episode, we are tackling one
of the most harmful societal constructs.
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That has persisted for generations.
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And that is telling boys and men
that having feelings is girly.
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That they aren't allowed to cry and not
showing emotions is a sign of weakness.
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Welcome to episode 1
69 of this shit works.
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A podcast dedicated to all
things, networking, relationship
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building and business development.
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I'm your host, Julie Brown.
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Speaker author and networking coach.
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And today.
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I am joined by author Jim young,
whose book expansive intimacy,
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how tough guys, defeat burnout,
explores the rules of masculinity
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that force men into a false choice.
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That choice being.
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Either face shame by embracing
their inner desires for meaningful
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connection or invite burnout.
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By following the harsh rules
that require men to shun emotions
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and emphasize achievements.
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Needing to be a tough guy.
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Or the whole man up culture.
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Is a set of societal expectations and
norms that dictate how men should behave.
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It encourages men to be stoic.
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Uh, emotionless and tough
in the face of adversity.
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It's a construct that teaches men to
suppress their emotions, especially
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fall durability and sadness.
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And the consequences of this culture
has ripple effects, especially when
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it comes to emotional wellbeing.
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Meaningful connections.
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And burnout.
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Which is why I'm so glad that
Jim is here because he's here
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to call bullshit on all of that.
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And offer us some tips and
perhaps a roadmap on how we can
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begin to combat these Consta.
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Constructs in our own
relationships and in our own lives
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Julie: so, Jim, hi, hello,
so excited you're here.
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Jim: Yeah.
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Thanks, Julie.
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I'm excited to talk about how all
that shit doesn't work and what does.
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Julie: You so many guests now are
like, when they're on, they, they
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put this shit doesn't work into.
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Thank What they're talking about,
and I love that because it's like,
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it's so on brand, obviously on brand.
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It's like a podcast
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Jim: it's such a great name.
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Yeah.
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Julie: Yeah, all right, so let's dive in.
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So it's the societal constructs of
telling men not to cry, of being tough,
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deep historical roots here, millennia,
why has it persisted for so long?
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Jim: I think we, we're still stuck
in some of those old patterns.
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And I think a lot of its story and
narrative, you know, the socialization
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that we get of what it really means
to be a man and, society has shifted
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so much in the past, call it a
hundred years or 30 years or 50 years.
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Right.
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And, and I grew up, I'm a child
of the seventies and I remember
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the women's lib movement.
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I remember as a kid hearing about
that and I'm like, I don't know
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what that means, but I do now.
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Like what I saw was that we finally
started granting women full permission
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to participate and that shifted in a
major way and it was a huge threat to men
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because like, well, what's our purpose?
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And what I think has happened is men
have just grabbed back on to say,
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like, I got to hold on tight to this.
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And we see it all over the place.
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We're seeing it in horrible events
across the globe and in everyday society.
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So I think it's a lot of it
is like identity struggle.
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Julie: Can you talk a little bit about
maybe your personal experiences, growing
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up as a man, and how these constructs
have affected you throughout your life?
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I
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Jim: Yeah, for sure.
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So I, I was born a.
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A sensitive kid, sensitive being.
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And I learned pretty quickly that
that wasn't okay because I was a boy.
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And now I was being raised in a
single family, single parent house.
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My mom was raising me and my sister.
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The other dominant figure in my life
at that time was my grandmother.
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So I'm raised around three women, right?
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I'm learning the world a
lot through their eyes.
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And then I'm going out.
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Whether it's, you know, into school or
hanging out with my friends or later on
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in life, getting into college or work,
and I've got all these influences that
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on one side told me, , we appreciate
you being this sensitive, caring person.
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That's who I was in my family.
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But when I stepped out, I got.
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I got bullied for that.
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I got called names for that.
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And I realized I had to shut that down.
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Like that was not an
okay way for me to be.
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I was not going to get ahead with my
peers in athletics in school at work.
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If I showed up as this sensitive guy.
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So I had to put on.
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All this tough gear.
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Now, I don't want to suggest that,
you know, we shouldn't be as men
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tough and take on hard things.
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Like that's part of
what's great about guys.
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Right.
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And I have that, those qualities, but
I also have the other qualities of
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being a caring person, having emotions.
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And to me, it's about having
that balance that I can bring.
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And it's taken me a long time to feel
like it's okay to say like, yeah,
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that part of me he's allowed into
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Julie: think this is so interesting
because you said you were so For a lot
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of my childhood, my mom was a single mom.
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I had, so I had my mom and I had my older
sister, and then I had my mom's mom.
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So very similar
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Jim: name.
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Julie: Our kind of family
was the same as yours.
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And I had the exact opposite experience,
where I grew up in a family that it
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was, you almost had to act like a man
because there were no men in the family.
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it was, it was very difficult, it
was, you didn't show emotion, you
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didn't cry, crying was for babies,
I'll give you something to cry
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about, like, there was absolutely,
no tolerance for being a girl.
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I think it's weird, I think with the
other, my other sister, there was
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for some reason, but when it came to
me, there was no tolerance for it.
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And so I learned to be.
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Emotionally shut down.
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Like I still don't find it easy to show
emotion, to talk about emotion, to cry.
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Like, I think the most I ever cried
was when my dog died and I was.
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46 years old and it was the
most I'd ever cried in my life.
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And so it's funny.
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I, you would think being raised
predominantly by women, I would have
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had a more emotional upbringing and
it was, it was devoid of emotion.
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Jim: It's not surprising to me.
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I mean, you're born in a, you know,
a female body and you're raised in a
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female family largely in a male dominated
society that says like the way to get
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ahead is to not show any weakness.
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And it's like, it's silly, right?
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Like we all go through our dog
dies, or we don't get the promotion
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that we want, or we get dumped.
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Like, there's all this stuff that happens
to us in our lives that brings up emotion.
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Like it's just natural.
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And yet so many of us, whether
we're men or women or whatever,
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we get the message that says.
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You know, just brush that
off, like, just keep going.
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And it's like, that doesn't give
us much room to deal with what's
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actually going on inside of us.
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And we're holding it in and it's
causing all kinds of stress and
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Julie: I
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Jim: tons of negative consequences
long term when we do that.
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Julie: I heard you once say,
or I read that you said that.
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You had a six hour improv class that
changed your life, and I'm so curious as
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to what possibly happened in that improv
class that could have changed your life.
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Jim: I think the bottom line is that I
got permission to stop pretending, right?
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Which doesn't make a lot of sense, right?
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I was going into a class where I was just
pretending, you know, making shit up, but
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I didn't have to pretend I was somebody.
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I didn't have to go in there with all
these accomplishments and this status
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of who I was and what I could do.
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I was just in there to be creative
and have fun and connect with people.
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And that, that first A workshop
I went to six hours one day, like
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eight years ago, I just walked
into this place where I felt like.
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It didn't matter what I was, who I was,
how I was, like, I was just accepted.
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I belonged there.
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And I could be how I wanted to be.
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And over the years, I've been
practicing improv since then.
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I've got a show on Saturday
and, and I've learned so much.
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about how I can just show up and
explore emotions, explore relationships.
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And it's literally liberating.
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Like I've, I've felt the weight come
off of my shoulders of like trying
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to show up a certain way for people.
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And it's a little bit funny because
it's like in improv, it's like this
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constructed thing where I'm going to show
up with this persona that I put on, but
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somehow it frees me up in my real life.
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Julie: Yeah, it's fun.
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I have a couple of questions
to ask built off of that.
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I think my first question is how do
we start being comfortable showing
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emotion, especially when we're not
sure how other people will react
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to our emotions because there's the
vulnerability of showing it and then
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also not knowing how people will react.
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And like, I, I had a really
interesting learning experience.
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Um, actually, so I don't have children.
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I have the dogs.
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And so all the neighborhood kids,
like my dogs were there, my kids that
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they played with, like they would
come over and play with my dogs.
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And so when my dog passed away, the kids
in the neighborhood took it really hard.
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And I was over the neighbor's house.
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Having dinner or something and
my neighbor's son started
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crying because he missed my dog.
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And I am embarrassed to say it now because
it, because I've learned this stuff, and
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I said to him, I said, Oh baby, don't cry.
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It's okay.
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And.
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I told my husband later when I went
home, I said, Oh, so I don't want
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to say his name because I don't have
permission, but I was like, so and so
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was crying because he misses Royce.
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And he goes, that's good.
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That's good that he was crying,
that he was showing emotion.
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And I was like, not the reaction I had.
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And I felt terrible that I
didn't give him the space to cry.
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Because I couldn't.
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Because I was still emotionally,
unavailable from it.
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Jim: Yeah.
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That makes me think of.
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How I got into improv in the
first place, which was my kids.
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It's my kids were doing improv classes
and they were having so much fun with it.
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And I, that's what inspired me.
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But that connection to that second
part is that I think one of the safe
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places or one of the ways that I
got emotions, emotional expression
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modeled for me was my kids, I've got
three kids, they're now 20, 18 and 15.
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And back then, you know, as
they were growing up, I got to
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see them just be how they were.
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Right.
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And kind of unfiltered and realize
like, why don't I have that kind of joy?
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Or how come I haven't
cried in 10 years, right?
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Like I went through a period of time
where I didn't cry for like 10, 15 years.
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Like I held so much shit in and So I
think in terms of how to start expressing
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that, like, so if there's a model to
me, it's look for examples of like how
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people are doing it in a way that feels
interesting to you, attractive to you.
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Like, Oh, wow.
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Like, look, they seem like they're
able to express what's going on.
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And then I'd like to think of Mr.
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Rogers, like Mr.
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Rogers is one of my heroes.
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Um, loved him when I was a kid and he has
this expression of look for the helpers.
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Who are the safe people in your life
that you can just be who you are, who
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aren't going to judge you, they're
just going to be there to help out
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whatever's going on and start, like
I always talk about like start small,
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like share a little bit, reveal a little
bit to test the waters with somebody.
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Like, is it safe for me to tell you that
I'm not sure how I'm feeling right now?
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But something's going on and
then yes, and then yeah, maybe
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I think I feel a little sad,
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Julie: yeah.
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Jim: like, just start to, to build
that, that trust with somebody.
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Julie: You know, I think, obviously,
societally, this is a problem.
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We need to have more open dialogue around
this, and there is, there's a billboard
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on a road, so I belong to a farm share
in Rhode Island, and when I, because I
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live in Rhode Island on the weekends in
the summer, I drive to the farm share,
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and there's this one roadside, um,
billboard, and it's It's a picture of
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a like you don't see his head You just
see his like neck and his torso and it's
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a guy with a suit on but his shirt's
unbuttoned And you can see some sort of
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like chest hairs like poking out and then
the text on the um billboard is Come in
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and get some things off your big hairy
chest and it is a it's a billboard for
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you know a therapist's office and I just
I I remember seeing it and being like
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this is absolutely Brilliant because
I mean, it's crucial, it's crucial for
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society to challenge and change, the
stereotype that men don't talk about it,
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that it's a stiff upper lip, you have
to be stoic, you can't have feelings,
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and I just wish we would see more of
that, like, how do we get more of that,?
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Jim: I love that example.
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Cause it.
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It pokes fun at it a little bit, right?
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It brings some levity into something that
feels like it's got a ton of gravity.
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It's like, Oh my God, therapy.
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It's like, Oh wait, we can kind
of make a little bit of fun of it.
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And I think to me, that's where
like having comedy in my life.
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And I loved comedy when I was a kid.
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And then I realized like, Oh,
that's not going to get me anywhere.
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I got to be serious and like get
a real job and all that bullshit.
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And then eventually.
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It became a part of my life and I bring
it into my life wherever I can because
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I realize like the work that I do and
I coach guys I coach organizations
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oftentimes i'm dealing with burnout
and If I just go in totally serious
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and heavy Like, it's too much, right?
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And it's like, let's, let's recognize,
let's laugh at it a little bit when we
253
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can and, you know, get serious when we
need to, but come on, we go around once
254
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as far as I know, how do we want to do it?
255
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Right?
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Do we want to be serious about
the shit that's bothering us?
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And do we want to actually have
fun as much as we possibly can?
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Which is one of my core values in life
is to create as much fun as possible.
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00:15:33,028 --> 00:15:36,668
Julie: So when did you, know that
this was what you wanted to do?
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You wanted to help people with this?
261
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This stereotype, these intimacy
issues that are causing, it's kind of
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like, I think about as a runner, if
there's something in your footholds
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that hurts, it's probably coming
from your hip, so a lot of the things
264
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that are hurting us, they are the
effects of something else happening.
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So, how did you decide, this
is what I want to dive into.
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I want to help people uncover.
267
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I have a pain here, but it's
actually coming from here.
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Jim: um, I had to crawl out of the burnout
crater myself because I had just like
269
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crashed and burned by taking so much
on and holding so much in for decades.
270
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And then once I got out of that and I
said, okay, I got to go reinvent myself.
271
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It took me a few years to recognize that.
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Like, Oh, what I actually want to do is
help other guys avoid that same fate, or
273
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at least, you know, if they didn't avoid
it, help them find a faster way out of it.
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And that was only a few years ago that I
kind of recognized that my work was like
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the best, some of the best work that I
could do is what I think a lot of people
276
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refer to as the wounded healer work.
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It was like, I know what that's like.
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I know it's objectively terrible.
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And so.
280
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What's the best thing I could do is I
could take the lessons that I learned of
281
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like what, what got me into that place.
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And then how did I get out so
that if you know if my trajectory
283
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was like this steep dive.
284
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Well, how can I flatten that out
for somebody make it a bit easier.
285
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And it's super rewarding to me because
I think like, if we look at it on the
286
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grand scale, all the things that are
going on in the world, come from stress,
287
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they come from violent reactions.
288
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If I can make a small dent in that, if
I can help one person, even avoid some
289
00:17:22,968 --> 00:17:27,367
of those lash out reactions or whatever,
because they're in so much stress.
290
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I've done a great job for myself.
291
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And if I can do that with
more people, even better
292
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Julie: How do you...
293
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I'm very curious to know how you
begin that conversation with somebody.
294
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Somebody comes to you and
they're like, I'm burned out, I'm
295
00:17:42,948 --> 00:17:44,288
stressed out, I can't do anything.
296
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I, I, you know, I'm...
297
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They're probably not coming to you
saying, I'm emotionally unavailable
298
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and I haven't cried in 15 years.
299
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Like, so what is the pulling back
of the onion that you do on that?
300
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Because I'm assuming you have
to do it with a little bit of.
301
00:17:58,868 --> 00:18:00,658
Ease and be gentle with people.
302
00:18:01,493 --> 00:18:01,963
Jim: Yeah.
303
00:18:02,043 --> 00:18:05,463
Having done it for a bunch of years
now and work with dozens of guys
304
00:18:05,463 --> 00:18:09,023
who've been in those shoes, I've
learned a lot of the nuance there.
305
00:18:09,023 --> 00:18:12,353
And there's, you know, I wish that there
was a formula that I could just lay down.
306
00:18:12,353 --> 00:18:14,483
Cause honestly, I would
just like write it out.
307
00:18:14,718 --> 00:18:17,218
On a LinkedIn post that I would put
up every day and be like, do these
308
00:18:17,218 --> 00:18:18,328
five things and you'll be good.
309
00:18:19,028 --> 00:18:21,558
It's just not, it's like, we're
too complicated as people and
310
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we have too much history and
baggage and beliefs and all that.
311
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So I try to approach everybody with,
where they are and just, and just confirm,
312
00:18:31,358 --> 00:18:36,348
like validate, like, yeah, like I get, I,
one of the reasons I don't think I'd ever
313
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become a therapist, even though my work
tends to be like therapeutic for people.
314
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I don't want to do all that schoolwork,
but I also know that for therapists,
315
00:18:46,608 --> 00:18:49,508
one of the cardinal rules is you
don't really share any of your story.
316
00:18:50,298 --> 00:18:54,558
And I think for men, because we're
so shut down and we don't share with
317
00:18:54,558 --> 00:19:00,018
each other, our inner realities
that as a coach, I get to do that.
318
00:19:00,558 --> 00:19:05,248
And so oftentimes the way that
I've found that helps guys.
319
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Say like, okay, I'm going
to, I'm going to get real.
320
00:19:08,013 --> 00:19:11,863
I'm going to be honest here is
to recognize what they're saying.
321
00:19:11,863 --> 00:19:14,593
And then say, yeah, I hear you.
322
00:19:15,403 --> 00:19:17,273
I had something just like that.
323
00:19:17,273 --> 00:19:18,633
Here's what it looked like for me.
324
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I put out a podcast about it.
325
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I've got a book about it.
326
00:19:21,343 --> 00:19:26,023
Like I'm an open book quite literally
so that guys can see , all right,
327
00:19:26,023 --> 00:19:27,393
well, I'm not alone in this.
328
00:19:27,688 --> 00:19:31,668
And I write in the book a lot about
shame as a factor in how men get
329
00:19:31,668 --> 00:19:33,438
into burnout and stay in burnout.
330
00:19:33,858 --> 00:19:36,158
And I think that's a huge
thing to acknowledge.
331
00:19:36,178 --> 00:19:37,268
And so I'm just like, I'm out front.
332
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I'm like, I have shame.
333
00:19:39,008 --> 00:19:40,148
It helped me get into burnout.
334
00:19:40,218 --> 00:19:43,338
It kept me in burnout and I had
to bust through it to get out.
335
00:19:46,488 --> 00:19:48,988
Julie: When I was thinking about
this podcast, , this interview,
336
00:19:49,028 --> 00:19:53,088
our conversation together, I,
for some reason, and I don't know
337
00:19:53,098 --> 00:19:55,628
why, my mind went to Fight Club.
338
00:19:56,388 --> 00:19:59,138
And, probably not the parts
of Fight Club you think.
339
00:19:59,198 --> 00:20:04,623
I actually went to the parts of Fight
Club where, Ed Norton's character
340
00:20:04,633 --> 00:20:09,643
goes to, groups, like support
groups, because he can't sleep.
341
00:20:10,033 --> 00:20:13,483
And when he goes to support groups
when he's there in that environment,
342
00:20:13,603 --> 00:20:16,573
then he can go home and he doesn't
have insomnia and he sleeps.
343
00:20:17,123 --> 00:20:21,413
And it made me think about another
statistic that I had heard, which
344
00:20:21,413 --> 00:20:25,753
is a startling statistic, that the
average adult male only has one friend.
345
00:20:27,528 --> 00:20:28,018
Jim: Crushing.
346
00:20:29,103 --> 00:20:34,583
Julie: And I'm thinking like, how much
better maybe our lives would be if
347
00:20:35,143 --> 00:20:37,763
Not, I'm not saying we have to have
more friends, I know it's, it, it,
348
00:20:37,773 --> 00:20:42,573
friendship is a process, but, are there
groups for men, like, are there support
349
00:20:42,583 --> 00:20:46,603
groups that are like, this shit is hard,
like, we can at least get in a room
350
00:20:46,603 --> 00:20:49,433
together and say this shit is hard.
351
00:20:49,433 --> 00:20:49,572
Right.
352
00:20:49,572 --> 00:20:50,681
I do think about, I, I, when I
353
00:20:50,788 --> 00:20:52,578
Jim: I'm going to start
a men's support group.
354
00:20:52,588 --> 00:20:54,098
That's called this shit is hard.
355
00:20:55,718 --> 00:20:56,678
Cause it is.
356
00:20:57,378 --> 00:20:58,168
Uh, it's so funny.
357
00:20:58,168 --> 00:20:58,838
You asked that question.
358
00:20:58,848 --> 00:21:02,168
Cause like literally today, the day
we're recording this, I dropped an
359
00:21:02,168 --> 00:21:07,838
episode on my podcast that is all about
how men's groups change the trajectory
360
00:21:07,838 --> 00:21:11,918
of my life starting 12 years ago, and
I've been involved in multiple of them
361
00:21:11,918 --> 00:21:17,868
over the years as a participant, also
as a facilitator, sitting in a circle
362
00:21:18,008 --> 00:21:21,968
with other men is millennia old as well.
363
00:21:21,978 --> 00:21:24,028
Like we've been doing it since time began.
364
00:21:24,048 --> 00:21:25,538
And it's a way for men.
365
00:21:25,853 --> 00:21:29,013
To connect in ways that modern
society has told them, like,
366
00:21:29,013 --> 00:21:30,763
no, no, no, you go it alone.
367
00:21:30,763 --> 00:21:32,303
You're a rugged individual.
368
00:21:32,443 --> 00:21:33,783
You don't need any help.
369
00:21:34,043 --> 00:21:35,083
You just go do it.
370
00:21:35,103 --> 00:21:37,923
And you prove to everybody that you
can do it better than the rest of them.
371
00:21:38,393 --> 00:21:40,943
Like that's a disaster waiting to happen.
372
00:21:52,198 --> 00:21:56,428
Julie: And so I think you said like in a
circle around fire you stayed together for
373
00:21:56,458 --> 00:22:03,828
for protection and for community and so
many of our basic needs I think come from
374
00:22:03,828 --> 00:22:09,728
that evolutionary process but our life
is built in a way that pulls us away from
375
00:22:09,728 --> 00:22:12,438
those things that allowed us to evolve.
376
00:22:14,868 --> 00:22:19,928
I just think it's so I just think it's so
interesting and I have two nephews and.
377
00:22:22,368 --> 00:22:24,898
I grew up in a family of women,
like I, it was, like I mentioned,
378
00:22:24,898 --> 00:22:28,358
it was, it, it, it goes beyond
just, it was my mom and my Nana.
379
00:22:28,508 --> 00:22:30,588
My Nana was one of five girls.
380
00:22:30,638 --> 00:22:31,978
My mom was one of two girls.
381
00:22:32,048 --> 00:22:33,428
I was one of three girls.
382
00:22:33,468 --> 00:22:36,688
My older sister had a daughter,
like there were no boys.
383
00:22:37,548 --> 00:22:43,248
And when, when my sister had her first
son, she has two sons, when my sister
384
00:22:43,248 --> 00:22:49,138
had her first son, um, You know, 10
years ago, I just remember thinking
385
00:22:49,138 --> 00:22:51,978
like, well, this kid's probably going to
be an asshole because he's going to be
386
00:22:51,978 --> 00:22:57,028
spoiled because he's the first son in,
you know, on the tree since the 1800s.
387
00:22:58,098 --> 00:23:03,248
But then I also thought like
how difficult it must be to
388
00:23:04,298 --> 00:23:06,728
raise boys in today's society.
389
00:23:09,188 --> 00:23:17,158
Jim: Yeah, I have three kids and
my first kid, um, born female
390
00:23:17,188 --> 00:23:19,138
now identifies as non binary.
391
00:23:19,718 --> 00:23:25,998
Um, and then I had a son and then I had
a daughter and it was like, I was so
392
00:23:26,358 --> 00:23:28,558
comfortable having a daughter first.
393
00:23:28,558 --> 00:23:30,518
I was so at ease with that.
394
00:23:30,538 --> 00:23:35,748
And then having a son, I was like,
I was unnerved by it because like,
395
00:23:35,798 --> 00:23:38,368
I don't really know how to raise.
396
00:23:38,768 --> 00:23:40,188
A boy into manhood.
397
00:23:40,188 --> 00:23:42,438
Cause I'm still working on that myself.
398
00:23:43,408 --> 00:23:47,618
And my dad was not really
part of my life growing up.
399
00:23:48,598 --> 00:23:51,328
We have a good relationship, but
he's just never been connected.
400
00:23:51,338 --> 00:23:53,028
I didn't see him much as a kid.
401
00:23:53,028 --> 00:23:54,768
I didn't have a lot of
strong male role models.
402
00:23:54,768 --> 00:23:59,628
I actually never had what I would
consider to be a real male friendship,
403
00:23:59,698 --> 00:24:01,498
like a real intimate male friendship.
404
00:24:01,933 --> 00:24:07,243
Healthy one until I was like 42,
it was the first time that I had
405
00:24:07,243 --> 00:24:11,223
a conversation with another guy, a
friendship with another guy where I
406
00:24:11,223 --> 00:24:16,553
could be my real self, I could tell him
what was going on in my life without
407
00:24:16,803 --> 00:24:18,443
pretending that everything was fine.
408
00:24:19,313 --> 00:24:26,663
And the power of that for me, it just,
I was like, Oh my God, like life.
409
00:24:27,198 --> 00:24:31,958
It got so much easier once I started to
be able to relate to other men, because
410
00:24:32,308 --> 00:24:34,138
I can relate to women all day long.
411
00:24:34,138 --> 00:24:36,898
And I have my improv troupe
is me and five women, right?
412
00:24:37,118 --> 00:24:42,398
It's a, it's a fucking
blast and you don't get us.
413
00:24:42,978 --> 00:24:46,878
You just can't, you know, you just,
as I can't understand what a woman's
414
00:24:46,878 --> 00:24:50,548
experience is actually in the world,
despite knowing so many of them really
415
00:24:50,548 --> 00:24:56,398
well, I need other guys who get what it's
like to go through the world as a man,
416
00:24:56,838 --> 00:24:58,228
and I need to be able to talk with them.
417
00:24:58,613 --> 00:25:01,953
And I do that now regularly
with a bunch of different guys.
418
00:25:02,213 --> 00:25:06,083
And I'm glad I'm not part of that
statistic of I only have one male friend.
419
00:25:06,488 --> 00:25:07,138
Julie: it's sad.
420
00:25:08,408 --> 00:25:09,568
Um, it breaks my heart.
421
00:25:09,578 --> 00:25:10,198
Honestly.
422
00:25:10,248 --> 00:25:13,918
I mean, there's a lot of statistics about
adult friendship and how the older we
423
00:25:13,918 --> 00:25:15,598
get, the less friendships we have and
424
00:25:15,783 --> 00:25:16,713
Jim: It affects women too.
425
00:25:16,723 --> 00:25:17,063
Yeah.
426
00:25:17,148 --> 00:25:17,348
Julie: Yep.
427
00:25:17,478 --> 00:25:17,728
Yep.
428
00:25:17,788 --> 00:25:18,698
And it affects women too.
429
00:25:18,698 --> 00:25:22,748
And that the average adult hasn't made
a new friend in more than five years.
430
00:25:22,778 --> 00:25:25,228
And it, it blows me away.
431
00:25:25,268 --> 00:25:26,188
It blows me away.
432
00:25:26,208 --> 00:25:28,668
And it, and it breaks my
heart on multiple levels.
433
00:25:29,388 --> 00:25:30,948
I want, you said something about.
434
00:25:31,953 --> 00:25:35,003
Doing a podcast about the
men's group that you joined.
435
00:25:35,003 --> 00:25:37,303
And did I hear you correct that
you're creating a men's group or
436
00:25:37,303 --> 00:25:39,213
did I just wish that into existence?
437
00:25:39,223 --> 00:25:40,363
Cause you're going to do
it now that I said it.
438
00:25:40,363 --> 00:25:40,403
I have
439
00:25:41,393 --> 00:25:45,533
Jim: You know, it's something that
I've, bandied about for a while.
440
00:25:45,563 --> 00:25:48,493
And I was Getting ready
to start one this fall.
441
00:25:48,503 --> 00:25:50,213
And then I had another
work project come up.
442
00:25:50,243 --> 00:25:51,693
That's taken up a lot of my time.
443
00:25:52,033 --> 00:25:54,793
It's a true passion for me
of leading those right now.
444
00:25:54,843 --> 00:25:57,843
I'm a member of one that I co
created and we actually don't have
445
00:25:57,843 --> 00:25:59,993
a leader where we all lead it.
446
00:25:59,993 --> 00:26:00,973
There's about 10 of us.
447
00:26:01,413 --> 00:26:05,123
Um, but I'd love like just to drop
some resources in, like if anybody
448
00:26:05,123 --> 00:26:09,453
wants to be in a men's group and thinks
that I'd be a great person to lead it.
449
00:26:09,873 --> 00:26:15,333
I am, um, let me know, like I have
a deep hunger to do that, but.
450
00:26:16,013 --> 00:26:17,823
There's a bunch of resources out there.
451
00:26:17,823 --> 00:26:20,293
So anybody who's listening,
like the mankind project is one
452
00:26:20,293 --> 00:26:21,563
that a lot of people know about.
453
00:26:21,853 --> 00:26:26,763
It's another big organization
called every man it's E V R Y M A N.
454
00:26:27,893 --> 00:26:31,933
Um, in the business realm, if you
think about it more from less like
455
00:26:31,933 --> 00:26:37,423
the personal side, groups like,,
Vistage or YPO masterminds or.
456
00:26:37,938 --> 00:26:42,608
Uh, executive panels, whatever they
call them, those groups often end up
457
00:26:42,618 --> 00:26:45,358
being a lot more like a men's circle.
458
00:26:45,368 --> 00:26:47,688
Cause a lot of them are men,
and the vulnerability that's
459
00:26:47,688 --> 00:26:48,888
allowed in those spaces.
460
00:26:48,928 --> 00:26:51,208
I know from experience of talking
to people who've been in those
461
00:26:51,248 --> 00:26:53,408
is super healing for them.
462
00:26:53,848 --> 00:26:57,018
Um, and then there are people
like me who, you know, private
463
00:26:57,048 --> 00:26:58,948
coaches who run their own groups.
464
00:26:58,948 --> 00:27:00,398
And there's a bunch of us out there.
465
00:27:00,718 --> 00:27:03,268
Um, get in touch with
me if you want to find.
466
00:27:03,633 --> 00:27:06,893
I can refer you to some people or if
you want to talk to me about doing
467
00:27:06,893 --> 00:27:10,143
one in the way that I do it, you
know, I'm interested in that too.
468
00:27:11,733 --> 00:27:13,943
Julie: like one final question.
469
00:27:13,993 --> 00:27:17,318
Um, And I don't exactly
know how to phrase it.
470
00:27:18,148 --> 00:27:23,218
In the past few years, there's
been a lot of, emphasis on DEI.
471
00:27:23,238 --> 00:27:27,018
There's been a lot of emphasis on
making sure that women can excel in
472
00:27:27,018 --> 00:27:31,678
the workplace and get paid, their fair
share, get paid what men get paid.
473
00:27:31,688 --> 00:27:34,328
And I've heard, and I work
in a male dominated industry.
474
00:27:34,328 --> 00:27:37,278
I've worked in architecture and
construction for 17 years, and
475
00:27:37,278 --> 00:27:40,598
now the speaking industry is
also a male dominated industry.
476
00:27:41,178 --> 00:27:48,858
And I have had some people in my
network say to me, well, I can't
477
00:27:48,858 --> 00:27:53,008
get work right now, or it's really
hard to be a white male, or now
478
00:27:53,008 --> 00:27:55,098
everything's stacked against me.
479
00:27:55,388 --> 00:28:00,523
And, I'd love to know just, how to react
to that because they, because there's
480
00:28:00,533 --> 00:28:06,663
something, there's, there's a dichotomy
here of, you have had it so good for
481
00:28:06,663 --> 00:28:09,373
so long on a lot of different fronts.
482
00:28:10,398 --> 00:28:14,168
But yes, you also were dealing with
these constructs that were really
483
00:28:14,168 --> 00:28:20,618
difficult, but it doesn't make it okay
to be mad that I'm getting a fair share
484
00:28:20,628 --> 00:28:24,228
now at, at, you know, what should have
been a fair share a long time ago.
485
00:28:24,588 --> 00:28:27,668
And I'd love to know your thoughts
behind that because I think there are
486
00:28:27,668 --> 00:28:32,508
a lot of white males right now who
are feeling a huge resentment against
487
00:28:32,508 --> 00:28:34,678
what's happening in the corporate world.
488
00:28:35,573 --> 00:28:36,463
Jim: Yeah, I get it.
489
00:28:36,483 --> 00:28:39,863
I actually, one of my long running
projects is I partner up with an
490
00:28:39,863 --> 00:28:45,133
organization as a facilitator doing
gender equity programs for corporate.
491
00:28:45,413 --> 00:28:49,723
, leaders and most of our men is talking
about how do we balance those scales
492
00:28:50,073 --> 00:28:55,543
and there really is a lot of Fear, you
know as layoffs are happening and as the
493
00:28:55,543 --> 00:29:00,683
job market is kind of this crazy state
I think it gets really tricky because
494
00:29:00,683 --> 00:29:06,123
we're talking about a huge systemic
issue That none of us personally created
495
00:29:06,473 --> 00:29:12,238
and yet the reality is White men have
benefited Like, period, end of story.
496
00:29:12,248 --> 00:29:14,248
Like, you can't deny the statistics.
497
00:29:14,478 --> 00:29:19,778
Like, on the Fortune 500 list
of CEOs, 41 of them are women.
498
00:29:20,498 --> 00:29:25,528
60 of them are named John,
James, or Robert or something.
499
00:29:25,608 --> 00:29:28,108
Like, we have literally three men's names.
500
00:29:28,518 --> 00:29:30,978
That make up more than
the total of women CEOs
501
00:29:31,198 --> 00:29:31,538
Julie: Yeah.
502
00:29:31,538 --> 00:29:34,858
There's more CEOs named David
David than there are female
503
00:29:35,948 --> 00:29:36,248
Jim: Right.
504
00:29:36,498 --> 00:29:40,738
So like there's, there's tons of evidence
and at the personal level, when you get
505
00:29:40,738 --> 00:29:45,198
down to that guy, who's like, I can't
find an opportunity, it's like, all right,
506
00:29:45,218 --> 00:29:47,008
well now I got to break out my empathy.
507
00:29:47,433 --> 00:29:50,883
Cause nobody wants anybody to be in
that position where they're feeling
508
00:29:50,883 --> 00:29:52,413
like they're struggling or threatened.
509
00:29:52,423 --> 00:29:54,263
And when people are struggling
or threatened, they don't,
510
00:29:54,303 --> 00:29:55,673
they're certainly not their best.
511
00:29:56,253 --> 00:30:01,183
So how do we find ways to support
that person and help them see that
512
00:30:01,233 --> 00:30:03,463
this isn't against you personally.
513
00:30:04,263 --> 00:30:06,403
It's how the system is rebalancing itself.
514
00:30:06,423 --> 00:30:09,233
And that's, that's, I don't
have a perfect answer for that.
515
00:30:09,233 --> 00:30:13,473
That's a really, really tough question,
but I think we have to be in dialogue
516
00:30:13,493 --> 00:30:16,443
and start to say, yeah, I see you.
517
00:30:16,873 --> 00:30:23,163
And I think the other piece of it
is like, there's a, uh, I think
518
00:30:23,163 --> 00:30:24,523
it's Simon Sinek is the author.
519
00:30:24,523 --> 00:30:26,523
Who's got a book called the infinite game.
520
00:30:26,678 --> 00:30:28,218
Julie: Yes, that is exactly right.
521
00:30:28,533 --> 00:30:28,833
Jim: Right.
522
00:30:28,833 --> 00:30:32,923
And so there's this finite mentality
of well, it's a zero sum game.
523
00:30:32,923 --> 00:30:33,603
She got the job.
524
00:30:33,603 --> 00:30:34,163
I didn't.
525
00:30:34,813 --> 00:30:36,983
The opportunities are going
to people that aren't me.
526
00:30:37,733 --> 00:30:40,103
Yeah, okay, well, what are
the other opportunities?
527
00:30:40,733 --> 00:30:44,183
When I was in the corporate
world, I only saw this much.
528
00:30:44,183 --> 00:30:45,293
I had my head down.
529
00:30:45,643 --> 00:30:48,723
And when I finally busted out of that and
I picked my head up and I looked at like,
530
00:30:48,913 --> 00:30:50,273
what's actually going on in the world?
531
00:30:50,283 --> 00:30:52,503
What are the opportunities
that are really out there?
532
00:30:52,943 --> 00:30:56,493
And what do I want that's not about
me climbing a ladder and getting
533
00:30:56,493 --> 00:31:01,353
status to be respected or feel like
I've achieved something external?
534
00:31:01,888 --> 00:31:04,638
I started to realize like, Oh, there's
a lot of things that I could do.
535
00:31:04,878 --> 00:31:07,188
And I don't have to get
the highest paycheck.
536
00:31:07,208 --> 00:31:12,388
I don't have to, have the best title
on my social media post job title.
537
00:31:13,738 --> 00:31:17,698
I think breaking out of like, what does
success look like for men in this culture?
538
00:31:17,878 --> 00:31:22,368
And I know men who have made a shift to
say, you know what, I actually want to be
539
00:31:22,368 --> 00:31:25,098
the person who is at home with the kids.
540
00:31:25,133 --> 00:31:25,273
Julie: hmm.
541
00:31:25,938 --> 00:31:26,198
Jim: Right.
542
00:31:26,198 --> 00:31:29,788
So there's, I think there's a lot of
different ways that men can get fulfilled
543
00:31:30,408 --> 00:31:34,218
that are not about the standard path
that's been given to them, the playbook
544
00:31:34,258 --> 00:31:35,658
that says this is how to be a man.
545
00:31:35,968 --> 00:31:38,658
I think if we break out of that
playbook, some of those dynamics of
546
00:31:38,668 --> 00:31:42,628
like who gets the opportunities, I
think they start to become a bit easier.
547
00:31:42,983 --> 00:31:43,403
Julie: Yeah.
548
00:31:43,613 --> 00:31:43,953
I do.
549
00:31:44,003 --> 00:31:47,153
I have two friends who, they have
two kids, one with special needs.
550
00:31:47,793 --> 00:31:51,953
And so when they looked at their
careers and the trajectory of their
551
00:31:51,953 --> 00:31:54,543
careers, he said, I'm going to stay
home and, take care of the kids.
552
00:31:54,693 --> 00:31:56,033
And she is the breadwinner.
553
00:31:56,793 --> 00:32:01,763
And I think that's such a, that's so
refreshing to see instead of making
554
00:32:01,773 --> 00:32:05,903
it like the usual familial roles.
555
00:32:06,418 --> 00:32:08,068
Jim: I think that's a real tough guy move.
556
00:32:08,443 --> 00:32:08,783
Julie: yeah,
557
00:32:09,373 --> 00:32:11,903
Jim: Cause like, I'm willing to
say, yeah, I love my kids so much.
558
00:32:11,903 --> 00:32:12,733
I'm going to stay home with them.
559
00:32:12,733 --> 00:32:17,033
And my wife is in a better position to be
the provider in our family financially.
560
00:32:17,033 --> 00:32:19,883
I'm providing in a different way
and I don't care what you say.
561
00:32:20,173 --> 00:32:20,893
Julie: Exactly.
562
00:32:21,303 --> 00:32:22,563
Jim: So I love my family more.
563
00:32:23,033 --> 00:32:24,803
Julie: Great way to end it, Jim.
564
00:32:25,143 --> 00:32:25,843
I love that.
565
00:32:26,443 --> 00:32:26,953
I love that.
566
00:32:26,993 --> 00:32:27,393
Okay.
567
00:32:27,493 --> 00:32:31,583
So, if people want to connect
with you, they can go to the
568
00:32:31,583 --> 00:32:33,143
Centered, thecenteredcoach.
569
00:32:33,783 --> 00:32:34,633
com, correct?
570
00:32:35,023 --> 00:32:35,443
Jim: That's right.
571
00:32:35,443 --> 00:32:36,413
That's the best place to find
572
00:32:36,553 --> 00:32:36,913
Julie: Okay.
573
00:32:36,953 --> 00:32:40,233
And you were also on LinkedIn, which
I would say everybody should go on
574
00:32:40,243 --> 00:32:45,133
LinkedIn because you post a lot of great
information on LinkedIn, um, as well.
575
00:32:45,333 --> 00:32:45,483
Jim: Yeah.
576
00:32:45,483 --> 00:32:48,013
And if you search the centered coach
on LinkedIn, it'll be easier to
577
00:32:48,023 --> 00:32:49,443
find me than to look for Jim young.
578
00:32:49,473 --> 00:32:50,423
Cause there's a lot of us.
579
00:32:51,193 --> 00:32:54,143
Julie: It's like the name Julie Brown,
but there's only one big one on,
580
00:32:54,493 --> 00:32:55,263
Jim: That's only one.
581
00:32:56,703 --> 00:32:57,343
We know that.
582
00:32:58,373 --> 00:33:00,043
Julie: um, this was so great.
583
00:33:00,043 --> 00:33:01,837
Thank you so much for coming on.
584
00:33:01,933 --> 00:33:02,273
Jim: Yeah.
585
00:33:02,273 --> 00:33:03,343
Thanks so much for having me, Julie.
586
00:33:09,475 --> 00:33:12,865
It can be easy to think
that men have it easy.
587
00:33:13,315 --> 00:33:14,275
And in a lot of ways.
588
00:33:14,275 --> 00:33:20,575
Yes, they do have it easier than women,
but just because the societal expectations
589
00:33:20,605 --> 00:33:23,875
on and constructs for them are different.
590
00:33:24,385 --> 00:33:28,735
It doesn't mean that they have
it easier in every single way.
591
00:33:29,845 --> 00:33:34,225
I'd like to encourage anyone listening,
especially men and maybe even myself.
592
00:33:34,795 --> 00:33:38,505
To recognize that showing vulnerability
and seeking help is a sign of
593
00:33:38,505 --> 00:33:41,355
strength, not a sign of weakness.
594
00:33:42,135 --> 00:33:43,065
It may take time.
595
00:33:43,545 --> 00:33:44,205
And effort.
596
00:33:44,625 --> 00:33:45,405
And practice.
597
00:33:45,765 --> 00:33:48,315
And maybe even a coach like Jim to help.
598
00:33:48,765 --> 00:33:52,845
But wouldn't it be freeing to break
free from the constraints of traditional
599
00:33:52,845 --> 00:33:56,775
masculinity and start embracing our
emotions without the fear of judgment.
600
00:33:57,465 --> 00:33:59,955
Or maybe it's not even
the fear of judgment.
601
00:33:59,955 --> 00:34:03,075
It's the ability to not give a
fuck if someone judges you for it,
602
00:34:03,075 --> 00:34:06,315
because you know, it's better for
you and your overall health and
603
00:34:06,315 --> 00:34:08,864
well being than the alternative.
604
00:34:10,125 --> 00:34:13,514
I like how Jim gave us the
permission to start small.
605
00:34:14,205 --> 00:34:15,795
Start small by saying.
606
00:34:16,665 --> 00:34:21,764
Simply to someone I'm struggling
today, or today is hard.
607
00:34:22,185 --> 00:34:25,335
Or this thing I'm dealing with is a lot.
608
00:34:26,205 --> 00:34:28,335
Even if it's in slow.
609
00:34:29,025 --> 00:34:31,455
Drips to start getting that shit.
610
00:34:31,935 --> 00:34:33,045
Out of your mind.
611
00:34:33,465 --> 00:34:34,905
And out of your body.
612
00:34:35,804 --> 00:34:39,405
Like that billboard said start getting
that shit off your big, hairy chest.
613
00:34:41,295 --> 00:34:41,715
Okay.
614
00:34:42,495 --> 00:34:45,495
Now onto the drink of the
week, which for fuck sake.
615
00:34:45,795 --> 00:34:52,185
I don't know why, but I didn't expect to
find so many websites dedicated to lists.
616
00:34:52,844 --> 00:34:54,315
Like this quote.
617
00:34:54,764 --> 00:34:58,575
Manly cocktails to order at the
bar, how to look manly at the bar.
618
00:34:58,575 --> 00:35:00,375
What is the most manliest cocktail?
619
00:35:00,375 --> 00:35:02,175
I mean, it's fucking ridiculous.
620
00:35:02,175 --> 00:35:03,615
I actually found an article.
621
00:35:03,645 --> 00:35:08,535
Uh, describing what manly car
cocktails are and are not, here's what
622
00:35:08,535 --> 00:35:10,125
it said in case you're interested.
623
00:35:11,775 --> 00:35:12,525
This is direct quote.
624
00:35:12,875 --> 00:35:15,995
What makes a cocktail
manly and manly cocktail?
625
00:35:15,995 --> 00:35:17,495
Shouldn't be overly sweet.
626
00:35:17,765 --> 00:35:20,585
And mainly cocktail never employs a straw.
627
00:35:20,915 --> 00:35:26,825
A manly drink is never blue, green,
pink, or purple, but most of all,
628
00:35:27,665 --> 00:35:31,985
Uh, manly cocktail hits the palate
sharply with either potent alcohol,
629
00:35:32,075 --> 00:35:36,995
strong sourness, powerful bitterness,
or a combination of the three.
630
00:35:37,655 --> 00:35:41,345
It challenges the taste
buds and burns the throat.
631
00:35:41,705 --> 00:35:46,025
That's why they are rarely
loved by first time drinkers.
632
00:35:46,835 --> 00:35:49,265
Well for fuck's sake, give me a break.
633
00:35:51,125 --> 00:35:56,675
This particular article listed the
seven manliest cocktails as, and
634
00:35:56,675 --> 00:36:00,275
these are ones I drank like a lot,
like this is ridiculous, I guess.
635
00:36:00,275 --> 00:36:01,745
I guess I'm fucking manly.
636
00:36:02,075 --> 00:36:02,675
Here we go.
637
00:36:03,365 --> 00:36:08,825
Dirty martini old-fashioned classic
Manhattan, rusty nail sidecar,
638
00:36:09,035 --> 00:36:13,075
straight absent, and a drink called the
godfather, which I had never had before.
639
00:36:14,785 --> 00:36:16,645
Well, I'm not going to
do any of those drinks.
640
00:36:16,765 --> 00:36:19,375
I've already highlighted a few of
those, but I'm not going to do any
641
00:36:19,375 --> 00:36:23,035
one of those because like it's,
this article was fucking ridiculous.
642
00:36:23,635 --> 00:36:30,355
I was however, intrigued by a cocktail
that I found in none other than garden.
643
00:36:30,655 --> 00:36:32,215
And gun magazine.
644
00:36:32,545 --> 00:36:35,125
I know I had never heard of it either.
645
00:36:35,545 --> 00:36:38,755
But the cocktail is called the third man.
646
00:36:39,025 --> 00:36:39,625
Cocktail.
647
00:36:39,985 --> 00:36:43,555
The third man was
inspired by the 1940 F 49.
648
00:36:43,555 --> 00:36:47,335
New R film of the same name written
by Graham green and starting
649
00:36:47,335 --> 00:36:49,255
Joseph Cotton and Orson Wells.
650
00:36:49,825 --> 00:36:53,515
I just kind of liked that the
magazine was called garden and gun.
651
00:36:53,515 --> 00:36:57,775
Like, would think that those are two
male and feminine constructs and like
652
00:36:57,805 --> 00:37:00,625
that's the name of the magazine was so
that's what drew me to this cocktail.
653
00:37:01,285 --> 00:37:01,525
All right.
654
00:37:01,525 --> 00:37:02,635
Anyways, third man cocktail.
655
00:37:02,635 --> 00:37:03,415
Here's what you're gonna need.
656
00:37:04,475 --> 00:37:06,215
They call for Bellmead bourbon.
657
00:37:06,215 --> 00:37:07,775
I've never had Bellmead bourbon.
658
00:37:07,775 --> 00:37:09,035
I don't know how it tastes.
659
00:37:09,245 --> 00:37:11,225
So I'm going to say just
an ounce and a half.
660
00:37:11,675 --> 00:37:12,395
Of bourbon.
661
00:37:12,695 --> 00:37:16,415
One ounce of grapefruit three fourths,
ounce of lemon juice three forests, ounce
662
00:37:16,415 --> 00:37:20,725
of campari and a half ounce of simple
syrup shake all ingredients with ice
663
00:37:20,755 --> 00:37:24,415
until chilled strain over fresh ice in
a rocks glass and then garnished With
664
00:37:24,415 --> 00:37:27,265
a grapefruit twist All right friends.
665
00:37:27,685 --> 00:37:30,325
That's all for this week if you like
what you I Heard today please leave
666
00:37:30,325 --> 00:37:33,925
a review and subscribe to the podcast
also So please remember to share the
667
00:37:33,925 --> 00:37:37,345
podcast to help reach a larger audience
if you want more julie brown you find
668
00:37:37,375 --> 00:37:40,585
my book this shit works on amazon and
barnes and noble you can find me on
669
00:37:40,585 --> 00:37:43,495
linkedin at julie brown bd just let me
know where you found me when you reach
670
00:37:43,525 --> 00:37:48,565
out i'm julie brown underscore bd on the
instagram or as always just pop on over
671
00:37:48,565 --> 00:37:53,665
to my website julie brown bd.com for lots
more information until next week cheers
672
00:37:57,363 --> 00:37:59,493
Hey, thanks for taking the time to listen.
673
00:37:59,923 --> 00:38:02,793
Be sure to subscribe to the
podcast so you never miss a tip.
674
00:38:03,183 --> 00:38:07,603
And remember, you can unapologetically
be who you authentically are
675
00:38:07,893 --> 00:38:10,293
and still be wildly successful.
676
00:38:10,543 --> 00:38:11,573
That's a fact.
677
00:38:12,013 --> 00:38:14,903
See you next week on This Shit Works.
