In this episode, we discuss the challenges of middle school with Jennifer Stiglic, an eighth-grade English teacher and author of the young adult novel Tisity. Jennifer shares her career transition from public relations to education, driven by a desire to make a positive impact. Tisity explores themes of authenticity and resilience among teenagers, drawing from Jennifer's experiences and her belief in the importance of recognizing students' unique strengths. The conversation highlights the value of career changers in education and the significance of teachers sharing their personal stories to inspire students.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

middle school challenges, career changers, student superpowers, inner strength, public relations, teaching passion, student council, authenticity, self-discovery, emotional navigation, student struggles, leadership development, storytelling, transferable skills, positive impact

SPEAKERS

Amy Vujaklija, Jen Stiglic, Joi Patterson

My I'm here as a safety net, but Let them struggle through it, because it's all a process of self discovery, and so you never know your superpower until you are faced with challenges.

This episode was originally released under the podcast titled teaching and learning theory versus practice. This rebooted episode has been migrated to teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi I am Dr Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation,

and I am Dr Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators.

So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it. Hello. Dr Joi,

hi. Dr, Amy, how are you?

I am looking forward to this conversation. Today. We're going to be talking to an English teacher and a middle school teacher. That's our passion. Is Middle School,

yes. Amy, let me ask you this, do you recall middle school and high school? Do you recall those days and what was that experience like for you?

There was a time that I said you could not pay me enough to go through middle school again, and then I turned out to be a middle school teacher.

That's because you felt sorry for the middle school teacher,

I probably did. I was actually in an interview experience one time on a site based Council, interviewing people for positions as one of our middle school colleagues. And her response was similar, that she had that bad experience in middle grades, and she sought to help others get through those bad experiences. And I thought, well, maybe that's why I was just talking about the teachers or those students. Well, maybe both. But really, I don't know of a tougher time as a student for any student than those middle grades years. And for some it's a great time. It's great to be in middle and high school. But for others, it's terrible. It can

be terrible. I don't think we realize, because there's still kids, for these kids, these early adolescents, how tough it could be my middle school and my high school experience were like night and day. I went to middle school in a k8 school, so I think it's a difference when it's a k8 school, and you might have some siblings there as well, and I went to a parochial school, so it was very different, and I've been there since preschool, and then I go to high school, and it was a college prep high school. It was very competitive in every way, and very demanding. And I feel like I really got lost in high school. It was hard for me to find my identity by myself, because it was so nurturing for me in elementary school, so high school for me, just I wouldn't want to go back to high school. I tell you that I wouldn't want to go back being a middle grade teacher. I love teaching middle school because I just thought that these students were different. There's that book, Men Are From Venus, or Women Are From Mars, something like that. Have you ever heard of that book? I truly believe that we're from Earth, and middle schoolers are from Mars. You know, that's seven through ninth or even 10th grade. Those are strange years. You know, you're you're developing physically, emotionally, mentally. Students have a tough time navigating those years. Well,

think about being in a fight or flight state like 90% of the day. That's kind of that surge of emotions and adrenaline and chemicals going through those middle grades, schoolers bodies, and that is a high stress situation.

It's like middle school is a bully. Yeah, I

think it is. Well, we're going to talk to Jennifer stiglik today. She is a passionate, energetic eighth grade English teacher and student council sponsor in new Lenox, Illinois. Last year, Jennifer published her first young adult novel called tisity. Tisity is the first in a series of novels that explores the inner strengths of teens at Westwood High School as they struggle through. The challenges of love, friendship, peer pressure and society, the bullies of childhood, for sure. Prior to becoming a teacher, Jennifer worked as a certified professional resume writer for resume edge. As she completed her master's degree, she wrote more than 6000 resumes, news releases, biographies and cover letters for high ranking government officials, corporate executives, professionals and students. She started her career in public relations after graduating from college where she Managed Media Relations, created executive positioning programs and wrote press releases and media materials. Jennifer holds a Bachelor of Science degree in communications from the University of Illinois and a Master of Arts degree in education from st Xavier University. Now I have so many more questions, because there's quite a career path here too to talk about. So welcome to our show.

Good afternoon. First, I would say, Dr, Amy, dr, Joi, thank you so much for inviting me to be part of your podcast today. This is a wonderful platform, and I feel very honored to be part of it.

Well, we're so happy that you're here, and like Amy and I we are also career changers, so we have that in common. We all have somehow we got turned into middle grades, and we have that in common, and we were just talking about our middle grades, our early high school days experience, and how different it is from anything else, and we're brave enough to tackle that, but before we get into that, because I really want to get into C because I've really enjoyed it, let's talk about you, especially hearing that you are a career changer and the wonderful career that You had before being a professional educator. Tell us more about what you did before becoming a professional educator. Absolutely.

Well, I started in public relations. I had started it was an exciting time. I worked in technology. I started a telecom company, and ended up going to an agency, which is kind of what you needed to do in public relations to build your experience. So I moved from the telecom industry to working with technology startups. I worked with tech startups in Silicon Valley, Silicon Alley. It was an extremely exciting time in the industry. There were so many different companies building new technology, and so I worked with a lot of them, which was wonderful. The CEO and communications director who I worked at at Ameritech prior, had moved over to tele, so a group of us had then kind of switched over back into telecom. But I did love public relations. It was, really was an opportunity to tell the story of new technology to customers through the media, by getting to know the media. And so it was a very exciting time. Now, just like anything that booms, it also busts. And towards the end of my career in public relations with this was the time of the technology bus, the company I'd been at, went through over eight rounds of layoffs. I was not laid off during that time, but started realizing toward the end that I didn't know if this was really the path that I was meant to do in life.

But tell us what positioned you into a transition to education. Tell us about that. Well, it

was actually kind of, you know, one of those, that I started realizing I wanted to do something where I felt like I was making a positive impact every day being in the business environment, and do a lot of good things, but it was difficult. It was a difficult time with all of the layoffs, to see people you worked with leaving. And so I really just felt like, what kind of impact could I have in the world where I really felt every day would be a positive result, and I had seen from working in public relations the value of being able to write, and that not everyone could write well or communicate with other people through writing, and so I really started to hone in on this idea of going in back to school to really help, kind of the next generation realize the power of writing and to have the skills necessary to be successful in the world. And so that really kind of started my transition, you know, I worked as a resume writer as I was going back to school, because I was not in a position to be able to just go back to school. You know, being a mom and being a grown up, I had to make money to be able to afford and to do that, my husband likes to say I pulled a bait and switch, because when we first got married, I was in public relations. I was the breadwinner in the family, and as soon as we bought our current home, which was a little bit of a stretch home, I came home and said, Guess what, honey, I want to be a teacher. So he feels like he got the raw end of the deal on that bait and switch. So, but that's kind of the the road that led me to education

that's not so. Drains. I was working in a lab. I was a research microscopist, and this was during Desert Storm. So I know what had the end of Desert Storm. They didn't need as many labs anymore, and so they were laying people off. And I survived, like the first and second wave, and like you, when they got to the third wave, I was like, I really want to go back to school, and that's when I was making my transition to education. But speaking of stories, I just love the story. I've been enjoying this book. I'm a high school student. It made me feel young again. I want to read this book that you wrote. And typically we think of educators as writing very technical materials, right? But this is really special. So society tells you to feel a certain way, act a certain way, meet others. Expectations. All of these pools come from the outside world, but the truth of what you need always been inside of you. You just have to be quiet enough to find your inner city. So I love that, and I love following Jaylen and Ethan's and Maddie. I love following their journey. But I enjoyed following the path of these adolescents, and I could see a little bit of myself and each of them, but as we follow some of their challenges, we also see their strengths. So I really enjoy the book. So kudos to you. Thank you. Talk about it. If you could give us a brief summary of the book?

Yes, absolutely. Well, the book follows three students, just as you had mentioned, Jalen, Ethan and Maddie, and the book is written alternating between their perspectives. I know that's a particular writing point that I like when I read different books, is to be able to see the different perspectives and as they go through school and they face struggles and pressures of the world, Jaylen feels the need to be perfect in all she does her school, her sports or future. Ethan has a dad who's not really their firm and is kind of a jerk, and in turn, Ethan is a jerk to those people around him. He's more like his dad than he realizes Maddie is not great in school. It is not her her area of expertise, but she is excellent softball player, and her family is really hoping that she can get a scholarship for softball to be able to go to college. And so there's a lot of pressure, there's a lot of expectations, which is what I see in my classroom every day. And so their stories end up mingling together. They each go through changes in the story, moving from coping using alcohol, drugs and other kind of negative ways to handle the world and the struggles they're facing, to really finding that inner tissue, finding their inner voice. And it's not a story of everyone lives happily ever after. It's a story of you find your truth, you find your way, even if things aren't perfect.

So I want to know if it would be a spoiler to tell us what tisity stands for.

I don't think it's a spoiler. It is short for authenticity, which is a word that Jalen, I mean, this story, ends up coining. It's a word that kind of brings power to her life, and so she starts to use the word ti city, and kind of carry that over into the other characters. And it has a few different meanings that come up throughout the book. Each character relates to it in their own way.

I know Jaylen coined it in the book, but Jaylen is your character, so you really coined it. So how did you come up with ti city and also tell us who's tisity written for?

So tisity is meant for junior high high school students. But the thing is, being able to remember to be quiet enough to hear your own inner voice and your own direction of your heart is something that, I think is a timeless idea. We could all relate to it, and all need to hear that from time to time, the idea of tisity, while it is a term I coined, you know, as I look at my students and different things that it's written for my students, in trying to help my students, I realize, how do I get through my days? How do I face my struggles? And I've been very fortunate to have a group of there's seven of us that have been friends, some of us since kindergarten. And so we've faced a lot of the same challenges in life, with school and boys and college and families and growing older. We've been so fortunate to face all of those different things together. And these women give me so much strength. And so I started kind of looking at them and figuring out, what superpower do I see in them, because they give me strength in my world. And so what superpower do I see in them? Once I kind of thought of their seven superpowers, I started thinking through the students and what different challenges they face in their world, and how does that fit into. How these strengths could help them, and so that was a big part of it. And to city was just kind of the the idea that I want to bring into each of the titles, because my goal is to write seven books covering each of the strengths. And actually, one of my students today said that they would recommend the next book is going to be perseverance, and they're like, You should call the character Percy. So maybe my student just coined the next book title. We'll see.

I know you do a lot of work with students and helping them write in like you said, finding superpowers. So what translated to this being a motivation to writing a book. The

book is an extension of what I try to do every single day in my classroom, I always tell my students that if I won the lottery, I would definitely hire someone to grade my papers, but I wouldn't quit teaching, because I really do love what I do. You know, when I first went into education, I thought there was no way I wanted to teach junior high, not a chance. That's the only thing I knew. But once I got in there, I realized junior high is the only place I want to be. Junior high kids are unique in the fact that they want guidance from adults, but it can't be their parents. These parents would be like, Well, my junior high kid doesn't talk to me. Well, until I had a junior high kid, I was like, Well, I don't know what's wrong with you, because your kid tells me everything I want to know, and they listen to everything I have to say. And then suddenly I had a junior high kid of my own, I was like, oh, so everything I say is not a valuable but they need that guidance. And so being a teacher in junior high is something that is a very powerful position. And so my goal every day is in any way shape I can, to empower the students in my classroom and the students around me. I want them to know that I see them, I hear them. They're valued as an English teacher, as you know when they students write to you, right? And so they write journals. They write personal narratives. There's that trust in the relationship. They tell me about themselves. And so I started seeing over a decade ago, when I started teaching to now, students are struggling with more and more real issues that are big deals in their life. I don't know that all adults realize that I wanted these books to be just a louder voice of you are okay. Your life may not be okay, the things around you may not be okay, but you are okay. And so I just wanted this book to be a louder scream of that two kids, kids that I can't reach in my classroom, that I can't Hey, I noticed you. I saw you in the hallway, really talking to that one student who a lot of people don't talk to. And I just want you to know that that is amazing. You know, I could do that in person, but I can't do that to every person out there. And so that's really what these books are meant to do, is to is to help students learn to hear their inner voice and to take time to trust themselves that they know what's right, even if everything around them may not be right. And I

can certainly see that in the book we're reading the book, you're saying, I acknowledge you, I see you, and you're not in middle school, you're not in high school, and for someone else to say, I see you, and I know how you feel, and I know the struggles that you go through, but you talked about their superpowers. Let's talk more about the superpowers, to the extent that you can talk about these superpowers. And more importantly, how do you help students find their superpowers?

I strongly believe that every human being has something they do better than other people, and so school measures some superpowers, but, and I tell the kids, I said, that probably sounds strange, but as a teacher, school does not measure every superpower. School is not your thing. That does not mean you don't have a superpower. And there's value the world needs all different types of people. And you know, as it is, students get the message, such a strong message, that there's one path to success, or their path is predetermined, and they have to be the best at this and be the highest at this. And if they don't measure up to being perfect or highest or best, then they're a failure. And that's simply not true. And so I start off the year put their superpowers on stars. I keep them in the back of my classroom. All that students can see is other students superpowers. Their name is on the back throughout the year, I kind of touch back on this idea through the use of literature and different activities that I do. But then we end the year to coming back and visiting and seeing if they think what they wrote in the beginning of the year still is their superpower. I also end the year by giving them a bookmark, letting them know what I see as their superpower. One of the best stories one student, I gave him his superpower, and he's definitely a chatty kid in class, and he had gotten in trouble a couple times, and I wrote down that one of his superpowers that he is so able to communicate with people, and he's able to talk so comfortably with so many different people, and that is just an amazing power that's going to, you know, superpower that's going to serve him well in his life. And he's like, but I got in trouble for that, and I said, You're right. Like, I said, school does not measure every superpower you have to be quiet in school, but that doesn't mean that that's not something that's going to serve you well in. Your life, his mind was blown by that. I

want to talk more about this being a reflection of your work in the classroom. It sounds like it's this culmination of your 10 years of experience in the classroom. The How can it also be an outlet of your work, or reflection of the work that you do in the classroom, that

opportunity of really giving any chance I see to empower students, whether that's complimenting them and noticing different positive things they do, or noticing that there's a change in them and what's going on and what's happening. One thing I've noticed, and it never fails, if you have that student in class with bad behavior, with attitude, who is apathetic most, most of the time you see adults be like, Oh well, they're just lazy. Oh, they don't work harder. Oh, they've just had an attitude. But I really, truly believe that if we approach every situation as a teacher knowing kids don't want to have attitude, they're not intending to be apathetic. Time and time again, when I find out their story, I'm actually surprised that that is all they're doing, because they're facing something very difficult. And so what I try to do is provide opportunities in the class for them to self reflect, an opportunity for them to process and to use that power of writing. One activity that I do often and my students love it, is called shred writing, chance for students to feel power of words without the fear of judgment. And so what they do is, I they get a piece of paper, they can write on anything they want, about 15 minutes, 10 minutes, depending on how the students are going. I turn off the light. My only rule is that they cannot talk. I mean, so with the lights off, people can't see the paper as easily. So it's kind of, you feel more comfortable writing, and they can write anything at all that is on their mind, and then when they're done, they take it and put it through a shredder. So no one will ever know what that is. And so I've actually had students who will come into different times in my classroom and say, you know, I've written something. Can I shred it because they were at home, or they faced a problem or they faced a struggle, and they really feel that power of shredding and being able to put their words away, but they've had freedom of expression. Because I think that students need to have a voice, and they need to know that their voice matters and what they say matters, and that they're facing real challenges. We don't as adults get to say, well, they're just being dramatic. It doesn't matter what we say. If they're telling us something's hurting them, or they're telling us something's making them struggle, we need to listen. We can't judge that because we're not in their position,

right? That sounds like the therapy for all of us to be able to write down what we are feeling before it comes out of our mouths. Sometimes, because sometimes you can't take words back. So that sounds like the therapy for all of us. We are talking to Jennifer. We got a two for here. We're actually talking about being a career changer, how she found her path to becoming a professional educator. So we're going to talk about that some more. Jennifer, but we're also talking about this wonderful book, one of seven or one of eight is going to be tisity, and it is wonderful when we along for the ride on the journey of three students who have to find their way and listen to their inner self to find their way to make it through school. So this is really a gift to other teachers and any teenager that reads the book. So I just want to thank you. If I haven't thanked you enough for writing this, I think it's very, very powerful. What is your hope of how this book will impact students?

My hope is that they read it and it hits them in the heart that it's not one of those books. They're like, Oh, it was good, and kind of put it down, never come back. I hope that the words stay in their mind. It's kind of like that great teacher you had, that great coach that you've had, that the words may not matter at this moment in time, but they stick so that the day when you face that problem or you face that struggle, they come back and either through the stories of the characters or the words of the book, help them with the challenges and the obstacles that they face in their life, and give them strength and remind them. Because, like you said, I think that we all need reminding to trust ourselves, to trust our inner voice. We know who we are. We know what we need more than anyone else, and so it's just remembering to trust that, because the world is very loud, right for us as adults and it's kids today are facing a thick world filled with so much noise. They know more, they see more. They are inundated on a daily basis beyond what any generation before them could have comprehended. I don't know what it's like to be a teenager growing up with social media. I didn't have to go through college with Instagram, and I'm thankful for that, but they don't get that safety to make mistakes and discover who they are. Everything is so public and just so available. I hope that this. Book can help them kind of find some quiet and some inner perspective, versus always looking outward for approval and understanding.

Did you ever think that it would help teachers? I had hoped that

it would help everyone. While it's a story of high schoolers, I think it's a it's a human struggle. As adults, we too face those same struggles. Of you go on to social media and you see everyone's highlight reels, right? You go online and you know, you see everybody that works very hard to create the perfect version of themselves, where we know, in reality, none of us are perfect, and our lives are not perfect, and that's okay, and we're not told enough that it is okay. And so my hope is that as a human being. I hope it's helpful as a teacher. I hope it's helpful because I do need that reminding that that student that's causing me struggles on a day to day basis, that I need to understand what they are going through, that, you know, it's not about me, it's about them, and I may be the only person who's trying hard to make that connection. Yeah,

and I agree it is a human issue. I think it's a great book for students, for teachers, for parents, so that we can have that relationship open some doors, have some better understanding.

Well, you've talked about telling your story and putting that on the page. How do you help students tell their stories? Well,

along with being in the classroom, and I think more than anything, one of the biggest ways that get an opportunity to impact students is through student council. So I've led student council as long as I've been a teacher, and I think that that's one of the strongest opportunities I have, because I get to help build leaders and help them discover who they are and their strengths and their story through practical projects and working together with different people and our student council, anybody can join. You don't have to be voted in. It's not about popularity. It's about wanting to be part of something bigger than yourself through that, one of the messages I tried to teach them is that people think a leader is someone who's in charge, someone who can be the loudest and stand in front of everybody and talk. And I said, That's not actually what a leader is. A leader is someone who can handle problems, who can take a mess of a situation and problem solve your way through it. And so that's something that I do through my classroom and in Student Council, is whenever students come up with a problem. I don't have a pencil. We're supposed to be selling cupcakes, and the cupcakes all fell on the ground, all right, so that's a problem. What's the solution? And so I always tell students, you're smart, you're capable. I mean, I teach eighth grade, and so they have the ability to problem solve. And I tell them, if you come to me with a problem, but you've also thought through a solution nine times out of 10, I'm going to be like, great, you've created a work for me. Love your idea. Let's do it. And so that's what I love for them, to help develop their their stories, to uncover their superpower by putting them in situations where I always have their back, but they're able to kind of work through those struggles. I think part of our society today is we don't want students, our kids, right? As a parent, I don't want my kids to struggle, but every time they do, I have to take a step back and say, this is a good thing. They're struggling in something where they have this my I'm here's a safety net, but Let them struggle through it, because it's all a process of self discovery. And so you never know your superpower until you are faced with challenges, right? Like you don't know, just as, like, you don't know if this, oh, this is the most amazing time of my life. I'm in such a good spot. You don't know you're in a good spot unless you've been in a bad spot. And so having those ups and downs and helping students go through it is something that we want to do, and I think that that's something that's very powerful for them. You

make a really good point about not knowing you're in a great space, unless you've been in a bad one. I wonder how much we are guiding our students, our children, through those struggles, or even letting them struggle. I'm at fault there myself not wanting my children to struggle. What would you say to educators who feel they have a story within them. Well, I

think that teachers, well, of course, being a teacher, I think that we have the best insight out of anyone on the planet, right on kids, because we spend every day with them. We have a pulse on the next generation. And every generations do change, and people do change. We work with students day in, day out. Our collective voice is gold. And so if teach, educators have a story to tell, whether it's a story for the general audience of the world or a story for their students, they need to tell it as students go through their day. Each teacher impacts them in a different way, and they may respond differently to different teachers. So whatever we can share of the struggles we went through experiences we've had that gives a voice to students, an idea to students that All right, look at here's a teacher I respect who struggled and faced different things, and this is how they faced it. So any story we have is we're we're guiders for the next generation of students, and so we have an important. Job to help them. We need to look like I said before, look beyond students behavior to really understand what they're struggling with, and maybe there's some sort of connection or story that we can make to help them better see the position they're in. Now, it's easier as adults for us to say, Oh, look at everything works out. It's all fine. We're students and people who are going through it again, what we tell them may not resonate today, but hopefully it will those our words and our stories that all teachers have stick in their brains for 20 years from now, 10 years from now, and it may end up making an impact at that time. And as much

as teaching as a science, we all study the science of teaching, and we know what to write, but we know that teaching is an art, and we all bring our passion and our superpowers with us to the classroom, which you certainly have talk about for a moment, transferable skills. You're magnificent in the classroom. So talk about these skills that you had in marketing and writing and making other people look and telling the story, those are skills that you brought with you and how you were able to use these transferable skills into your classroom. Absolutely

Well, I see that as a teacher, not only do we teach the content area, we teach, but we're also teaching our students how to be good people. I'm a very different teacher, having had a background in business than I would be if I started out in education, I don't think I'd have the passion. I don't think I would have the drive that I have, because while I love my subject matter, I get a chance to kind of share that passion with students. I love grammar writing, and I'm a complete dork for diagramming. Everybody. All my students favorite topic to discuss, of course, but I guarantee that if they will engage more with diagramming because I'm so passionate about it, versus if I came in and I'm just teaching content area. So I think that whatever passions teachers teachers have whatever superpowers they have, bringing those into the classroom, no matter what it is is is going to engage students, right? They're sitting in chairs all day learning. And so what can we do to bring that engagement? And it's our passion, our excitement. Passion and excitement is contagious. And I don't think that if I had started off in teaching, I would have that same kind of passion, and I think that's that's something that's been valuable. I always challenge my students to ask me, When do I ever need this? I always tell my students, please, at any time, raise your hand. When am I going to use this? And I can tell you exactly when you're going to use it, because I said, I've been out there in the world and I've seen different jobs. I said, you asked me, and I will tell you, and believe me, that's one of their favorite things to do. That's a

book in itself. When am I going to use this? I'm like you. I think if everyone could live their life according to charts, we would all have happier lives.

Absolutely everyone

should know those. Everyone to think that our passion is the most important thing. Yes, Amy, sure shares your passion with writing.

Part of it is also the English teacher's passion for telling a story and that narrative and being able to share that with another audience. Isn't it true, though, that everything we do is providing that narrative evidence that we're doing the work we're supposed to be doing, regardless of whether it's a report or a beautiful novel, it's there, and we just have to help students see that really writing is important. But I've really appreciated you sharing your story with us and talking us through how your help, how you help the students see their inner selves and their superpowers, but also how we can look within ourselves as adults and really reignite our own superpower. So I do. Thank you for being with us today. It's been a pleasure,

and I love the fact that you are a career changer. I think career changers are some of the greatest teachers. You're able to bring all of your experience and your maturity to the classroom, and you come into teaching from a different perspective. We have majors in college, and we think that we know what we want to do, and because we got a degree in a certain field, we feel obligated to that field, right? And so you spend time in that field, whether you like it or not, and if your parents help you pay your tuition. There's an obligation there, right? Like you go into teaching when you feel like I need something to make me whole. I need a way to contribute. But you didn't have to lose any of the skills that you had. You brought all those skills into the classroom to make. A bit better experience for the students. So kudos to you. Thank

you. I will. I greatly appreciate you having me on and and the one thing that you were saying, as far as like getting excited and what makes you excited, as I was deciding whether to write a book, kind of do something that was a little bit different, my friend gave me this bookmark and the quote on it, I think definitely is kind of a great way to live life, and something that teachers do create, whatever causes a revolution in your heart, the rest will take care of itself. By Elizabeth Gilbert and that I have it hanging on my dashboard of my car, and, and that's something that always wants you know, just follow your heart and, and that's something that I think as adults and as students, is something that can be very powerful guidance through our life on an unknown path. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you. Dr Amy, Dr Joi. This has been such a pleasure. It's

been a pleasure for us too. Thank you.

We can't wait to talk to you about your next book. Excellent. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi. Visit our website at G, O, v, s, t.edu/teaching, and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode,

we appreciate Governor state universities work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr Amy and Dr Joi you.