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Amy Martin:I'm standing in a park in Glasgow, Scotland,
Amy Martin:waiting for a protest march to start. It's the end of the first
Amy Martin:week of COP26 the UN Climate Conference, and 1000s of people
Amy Martin:are gathering to demand climate action. I'm up toward the front
Amy Martin:of the march, where people are trying out their megaphones,
Amy Martin:testing out chants, getting warmed up. Climate celebrities
Amy Martin:Greta Thunberg and Vanessa Nakate are both scheduled to
Amy Martin:speak later, and everyone's keeping an eye out for them, but
Amy Martin:they're also checking out each other.
Amy Martin:Hey, can I interview you real quick?
Amy Martin:Just on my phone? I was not recording it, but I have
Protesters:Yeah!
Protesters:to ask you, did I just overhear you scanning on hot guys at the
Protesters:protest?
Protesters:Yeah you did! You know, this could gonna be a
Protesters:bright side to these kinds of things.
Amy Martin:There were two huge protests at COP26 on the Friday
Amy Martin:and Saturday midway through the conference, and I followed them
Amy Martin:both. But really, the protests never stopped. For all two
Amy Martin:weeks, morning, noon, and night, people were outside the
Amy Martin:conference center singing, shouting and waving signs. And
Amy Martin:when I asked people why they had come out to protest, a lot of
Amy Martin:them said things like this.
Shannon:We have conferences like this every so often, and we
Shannon:have parliaments, we have politicians, but they don't do
Shannon:what they're voted in to do. They're full of promises, and
Shannon:they don't do it. So just a fancy meeting.
Amy Martin:This is Shannon. She's in her early 20s. I talked
Amy Martin:to her and her friend Grace while we were waiting for the
Amy Martin:march to begin. Just to be clear, these are not the same
Amy Martin:people who were scoping out guys a minute ago. I asked Grace what
Amy Martin:she thought might be happening inside the blue zone.
Grace:It seems to be quite elitist, and the people on the
Grace:ground are kept out of it. Like this is why we need marches like
Grace:this.
Shannon:The leadership comes from the people on the ground.
Shannon:So I think you're not going to see real change until you bring
Shannon:that inside.
Amy Martin:Over and over, the people I talked to who were out
Amy Martin:protesting expressed a similar frustration. They didn't want to
Amy Martin:just stand outside and shout. They wanted to get heard inside,
Amy Martin:penetrate the bubble of the blue zone, affect this process
Amy Martin:somehow.
Lilius:Well, we just need to make change, and we need to make
Lilius:change now, and it gets very frustrating when you feel like
Lilius:there's only so much you can do. So we just really want people to
Lilius:listen.
Protesters:We're here to tell the world leaders that we are
Protesters:holding them accountable to take real action and not just make
Protesters:pronouncements. That's what I'm really worried is happening.
Amy Martin:Welcome to Threshold, I'm Amy Martin, and
Amy Martin:in this episode, we're continuing our coverage of the
Amy Martin:UN Climate Conference held in Glasgow, Scotland in November
Amy Martin:2021. Like I said in our last episode, these UN talks are the
Amy Martin:biggest, most complicated, highest stakes group project
Amy Martin:humanity has ever known, and the goal of that project is to
Amy Martin:manage change, because the reality of the climate crisis is
Amy Martin:that change is coming one way or another. As we disrupt the
Amy Martin:climate, it is disrupting our societies, and if we continue on
Amy Martin:our current path, those disruptions will become
Amy Martin:increasingly chaotic and deadly. The UN talks are an attempt to
Amy Martin:get ahead of that curve, to instigate and guide a massive
Amy Martin:social and economic transformation before we're
Amy Martin:forced to change by the brutal circumstances we have created.
Amy Martin:So we're trying to do something very messy in an organized way
Amy Martin:here, in a sense, these talks are an attempt to design a
Amy Martin:revolution. So how do we actually do this? How do we make
Amy Martin:the rules for breaking the rules? Because that's not
Amy Martin:generally how these things work. Revolutions usually just sort of
Amy Martin:happen, and they're often painful, even bloody. That's
Amy Martin:definitely an option with the climate and that's what the UN
Amy Martin:climate talks are trying to prevent. So I'm grateful for the
Amy Martin:thousands of people who are working hard inside the blue
Amy Martin:zone trying to steer us toward a less damaging version of change.
Amy Martin:But I also understand the protesters' frustration with how
Amy Martin:slow and opaque this process is. The UN climate talks are among
Amy Martin:the most important things happening on the planet right
Amy Martin:now, maybe the most important thing we've ever tried to do. So
Amy Martin:people understandably want to see what's going on here. Inside
Amy Martin:the conference, people are trying to assert order over the
Amy Martin:chaos of climate change. Out on the streets, people are trying
Amy Martin:to shake up the status quo of climate in action. Everyone
Amy Martin:wants the process to go faster, and no one can make that happen
Amy Martin:alone.
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: We are now seeing actual climate change
Amy Martin:happening. The question here in the COP is, are they going to
Amy Martin:recognize that reality? Are they going to do something about it?
Unknown:A few people are benefiting from the distress of
Unknown:the rest of us.
Unknown:Dr. Adelle Thomas: I think we've made some incremental progress.
Unknown:It's not enough.
Shannon:Leadership comes from the people on the ground. So I
Shannon:think you're not going to see real change until you bring that
Shannon:inside.
Amy Martin:it's the second week of the conference, and I'm
Amy Martin:walking through the Blue Zone, the official UN controlled
Amy Martin:territory where the heart of the action takes place. I feel like
Amy Martin:I've got my feet under me a bit now. I know where to find the
Amy Martin:best food, and I can sort of decode the signs listing the
Amy Martin:different meetings. But my colleague Shola Lawal has just
Amy Martin:arrived.
Amy Martin:It's day one for you. How are you doing?
Shola Lawal:Good, actually, not too bad. I was expecting more
Shola Lawal:overwhelm, but I guess I'm the right amount of whelm.
Amy Martin:Maybe, since you live in Lagos, you're used to,
Amy Martin:like giant crowds in a certain time.
Shola Lawal:That kind of thing. Yeah.
Amy Martin:If you've listened to our whole season, you've
Amy Martin:already met Shola back in episode seven, when she reported
Amy Martin:from her home country of Nigeria.
Amy Martin:How old are you?
Shola Lawal:I'm 27.
Amy Martin:So you are one year older than this conference. How
Amy Martin:does it feel to just arrive at something that has got all this
Amy Martin:huge international significance but that most of us don't really
Amy Martin:understand?
Shola Lawal:I feel privileged to be here. So just to be
Shola Lawal:present here, I think it's a great privilege, but it's also
Shola Lawal:interesting, because I know that a lot of the people who are
Shola Lawal:being affected by what's happening with the climate. I
Shola Lawal:don't know if many of them are here as well, so that's one
Shola Lawal:thing that's on my mind.
Amy Martin:Shola says attending any UN Climate Conference would
Amy Martin:be a privilege, but maybe especially COP26. This
Amy Martin:conference was supposed to happen in 2020 but it was
Amy Martin:postponed because of the pandemic, and covid was still
Amy Martin:keeping many people away, especially people from less
Amy Martin:developed countries where it was harder to find the resources to
Amy Martin:manage all the pandemic risks and restrictions. Shola heads
Amy Martin:out to explore and get oriented, and I go find the latest news on
Amy Martin:my chosen beat here, loss and damage. Reckoning with climate
Amy Martin:change impacts that cannot be repaired. There are hundreds of
Amy Martin:issues being discussed and debated at COP26 and they're
Amy Martin:almost all interesting to me. But in order to really
Amy Martin:understand how this cooperative process works, I needed to
Amy Martin:narrow my gaze. If making a climate agreement is like
Amy Martin:building a barn, I wanted to see how people try to get one plank
Amy Martin:hammered into place, and I decided to focus on loss and
Amy Martin:damage because several of the people I'd reached out to before
Amy Martin:COP told me it was going to be a big deal here, and they were
Amy Martin:right. There are protesters holding big loss and damage
Amy Martin:signs just outside the conference gates. A lot of
Amy Martin:observers are wearing loss and damage buttons. It's a thing.
Amy Martin:The question on the table is if the wealthy countries will agree
Amy Martin:to provide some funding for loss and damage at this COP. The less
Amy Martin:developed countries have been pushing for this for years, and
Amy Martin:one of the people I'm following, Dr Adelle Thomas, told me at the
Amy Martin:start of the conference that she thought it might actually happen
Amy Martin:this time. Here at the beginning of the second week, I find her
Amy Martin:and check in again.
Amy Martin:If you had to predict a week from now, will you be feeling
Amy Martin:like, okay, we made some progress on loss and damage at
Amy Martin:this COP or not?
Amy Martin:Dr. Adelle Thomas: I think my expectations have been lowered
Amy Martin:quite a bit.
Amy Martin:Adelle is a geographer from the University
Amy Martin:of the Bahamas and the global think tank Climate Analytics.
Amy Martin:She's been a lead author on multiple UN scientific reports,
Amy Martin:and she's serving as an advisor to the small island developing
Amy Martin:states at COP26.
Amy Martin:Dr. Adelle Thomas: I came into this even though I didn't want
Amy Martin:to have high expectations. I did come in with high expectations,
Amy Martin:listening to the political rhetoric that's been around loss
Amy Martin:and damage. So, you know, we've been hearing from world leaders,
Amy Martin:climate change is affecting us now, and we need to, you know,
Amy Martin:act and support and all of this stuff, but that's not
Amy Martin:translating into the negotiating rooms. I think we've made some
Amy Martin:incremental progress. It's not enough.
Amy Martin:Even though loss and damage is pretty visible inside
Amy Martin:the conference, I don't think very many people outside of this
Amy Martin:context really know what it is. So I ask Adelle to define it for
Amy Martin:me again, and she starts by making a framework. You can
Amy Martin:divide climate issues into three main categories, she says,
Amy Martin:mitigation, adaptation and loss and damage.
Amy Martin:Dr. Adelle Thomas: Mitigation is reducing our emissions, so
Amy Martin:trying to reduce climate change itself, and then adaptation is
Amy Martin:putting in place measures that try and reduce impacts of
Amy Martin:climate change. So mitigation tries to make sure that climate
Amy Martin:change doesn't happen. Adaptation says, okay, climate
Amy Martin:change is going to happen, but we can put these measures in
Amy Martin:place so that the impacts hopefully won't happen, and loss
Amy Martin:and damages, actually the impacts have happened.
Amy Martin:One analogy here might be disease. We do things
Amy Martin:to prevent diseases, like wash our hands and get vaccinations.
Amy Martin:That's kind of like mitigation. Then if we get sick, we do
Amy Martin:things to manage the symptoms. We change our lifestyle. We take
Amy Martin:medicine, we try to diminish pain and maintain quality of
Amy Martin:life in different ways. That's adaptation. But sometimes, no
Amy Martin:matter what we do, the disease wins. We die. In a climate
Amy Martin:context, individual people die as well as places- coral reefs,
Amy Martin:forests, entire islands- and communities that are parts of
Amy Martin:those places. Dealing with that is what loss and damage is all
Amy Martin:about, and that's what I want to understand. How does that get
Amy Martin:dealt with in a climate agreement? How do you take
Amy Martin:something as gut wrenching and multi-layered as the extinction
Amy Martin:of an animal that's at the heart of your culture, or the
Amy Martin:conversion of your community's rainforest into a dry savanna,
Amy Martin:and account for those losses in the technical, bureaucratic
Amy Martin:language of the COP process? How does this damage get known, seen
Amy Martin:and valued here? Adelle says the first hurdle, and its big one,
Amy Martin:is just getting everyone to consent to the same reality.
Amy Martin:Dr. Adelle Thomas: And this is what developing countries have
Amy Martin:been fighting for since the beginning of the UNFCCC, that
Amy Martin:loss and damage is a reality. We are facing impacts of climate
Amy Martin:change, and it's something that we need to address under the
Amy Martin:UNFCCC. We can't continue to act as if mitigation and adaptation
Amy Martin:are enough, because they're not. You know, we've been seeing the
Amy Martin:impacts of climate change around the world, and it's time that we
Amy Martin:start paying attention to how we're going to address them
Amy Martin:within the process.
Amy Martin:Do you feel like that message is getting across
Amy Martin:to the richer countries?
Amy Martin:Dr. Adelle Thomas: I think they're hearing us, but I think
Amy Martin:they're still trying to shirk responsibility. We are hearing
Amy Martin:more talk about loss and damage, more acknowledgement of loss and
Amy Martin:damage, which to me, is insane, because it's like acknowledging
Amy Martin:that you have a nose right, like it exists. Wow, great, great,
Amy Martin:great insight there. But that has been translated into saying,
Amy Martin:Okay, we actually need to provide support on the level
Amy Martin:that countries need it, and that is on par with our
Amy Martin:responsibility due to the emissions that we have released.
Amy Martin:This idea that the developed world owes the
Amy Martin:developing world's support as we navigate the climate crisis,
Amy Martin:this is not at all a new concept. It's the principle of
Amy Martin:common but differentiated responsibilities, and it's one
Amy Martin:of the central tenets of the United Nations Framework
Amy Martin:Convention on Climate Change, or UNFCCC, formed back in the early
Amy Martin:1990s. Common but differentiated responsibilities is a fairly
Amy Martin:straightforward idea. Countries that have released the most
Amy Martin:planet warming emissions need to take the most responsibility for
Amy Martin:solving this problem. Makes sense, and as long as it stays
Amy Martin:in concept form, it's not controversial at these talks,
Amy Martin:everyone agrees with common but differentiated responsibilities,
Amy Martin:in theory. But this fight to recognize loss and damage is an
Amy Martin:attempt by developing nations to put that theory into practice,
Amy Martin:and they are meeting big resistance. We're 26 years in,
Amy Martin:and the wealthy countries have only recently acknowledged that
Amy Martin:loss and damage exists.
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: And so this isn't about charity. This isn't
Amy Martin:about giving a helping hand to poor people. This is about
Amy Martin:admitting responsibility.
Amy Martin:This is Dr Saleemul Huq from the independent
Amy Martin:University Bangladesh. Like Adelle, he's an advisor to the
Amy Martin:negotiations at COP26 and he's also agreed to let me follow him
Amy Martin:around here.
Amy Martin:Dr. Saleemul Huq: We are now seeing actual climate change
Amy Martin:happening, causing loss and damage to people, livelihoods,
Amy Martin:infrastructure. That's the reality of what's happening on
Amy Martin:the ground. The question here in the COP is, are they going to
Amy Martin:recognize that reality? Are they going to do something about it?
Amy Martin:We hope they will. We, when I say we, I'm talking on behalf of
Amy Martin:the vulnerable countries who are here, we want them to do that.
Amy Martin:We've asked them to do that. We haven't got very far with them
Amy Martin:yet. So let's see.
Amy Martin:Earlier, I said this process was like trying to
Amy Martin:design a revolution, and one of the hard things about that is
Amy Martin:getting everyone to agree on what the revolution should be
Amy Martin:about. The wealthy countries would like to keep the focus on
Amy Martin:mitigation, reducing emissions, transitioning to renewables,
Amy Martin:sparking green innovation. And the poorer countries are saying
Amy Martin:that all sounds great, but you're skipping a big, important
step:taking responsibility for your impact on us. The world's
step:wealthiest countries have a vested interest in avoidance.
step:They don't want to look at these irrevocable losses of the
step:climate crisis because they are causing them. But the people who
step:are on the front lines of climate change are saying, we
step:don't have the luxury of your denial. You have to face what
step:you've done and account for it. As we enter the second week of
step:the conference, Saleem says he's not feeling terribly optimistic
step:about the possibilities for progress on loss and damage at
step:this COP, but there is one bright spot, he says, Scotland's
step:top elected official, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, has
step:made a pledge.
step:Dr. Saleemul Huq: She put a million pounds of her budget
step:into a loss and damage fund. So effectively, she's challenging
step:all the parties to the convention to put their money
step:where their mouth is and to match her money. She's put her
step:money on the table, a million pounds, not a lot, but it's a
step:start. The others have given zero.
Amy Martin:By the others, Saleem means the other wealthy
Amy Martin:countries, especially the world's biggest cumulative
Amy Martin:emitter, the United States. Saleem and others close to the
Amy Martin:loss and damage negotiations told me that progress was being
Amy Martin:blocked, primarily by the United States and the European Union,
Amy Martin:but it's surprisingly hard to get people to just state that
Amy Martin:plainly on record.
Amy Martin:Who's holding up funding for loss and damage?
Simon Stiell:There needs to be pressure in all areas from all
Simon Stiell:parties.
Amy Martin:But where is the block? I mean, because
Amy Martin:everybody's saying, Oh yes, we want loss and damage, you know,
Amy Martin:we'd support it, blah, blah, blah. But who's stopping text
Amy Martin:saying we are going to fund loss and damage?
Simon Stiell:I can't answer that.
Amy Martin:iI I turn this off will you answer that?
Amy Martin:That was Simon Stiell, minister of climate resilience from
Amy Martin:Grenada, a Caribbean island nation. His country is part of
Amy Martin:AOSIS, the Alliance of Small Island Developing States, and
Amy Martin:they're pushing hard for funding for loss and damage, but he
Amy Martin:doesn't want to call out his opponents to that because he's
Amy Martin:still trying to convince them. Being too transparent about what
Amy Martin:you're negotiating for and who's blocking you could muck up the
Amy Martin:process in all kinds of ways. You might show your cards too
Amy Martin:early or say something that polarizes your opponent against
Amy Martin:you. So there are good reasons for people to be cautious about
Amy Martin:naming names here. But at the same time, these climate
Amy Martin:agreements are of vital importance to the whole world.
Amy Martin:This isn't some little private business deal or something. This
Amy Martin:is about all of us and our collective future. So people
Amy Martin:outside of the Blue Zone need and deserve to know what's going
Amy Martin:on here, what the conflicts are and where representatives from
Amy Martin:their countries stand. If the US is blocking loss and damage
Amy Martin:funding, then I want to see how and why, so I can share that
Amy Martin:with you, our listeners. But I couldn't witness that conflict
Amy Martin:in action, because, like Adelle Thomas described in our last
Amy Martin:episode, almost all of the most important meetings where
Amy Martin:positions might be made more clear don't show up on the
Amy Martin:official meeting schedule.
Amy Martin:Dr. Adelle Thomas: That's like wheeling and dealing, right? I
Amy Martin:mean, it's like I said, it's informal informals, or informal
Amy Martin:and formal informals, right? So trying to formalize that it's
Amy Martin:not going to happen. Yeah.
Amy Martin:So is there a moment then when, when a country like
Amy Martin:the United States or a bloc like the EU says, No, we don't want
Amy Martin:to fund that, or how does it become clear that it's not going
Amy Martin:to happen?
Amy Martin:Dr. Adelle Thomas: They won't come out and say, we're not
Amy Martin:funding that. But they'll say, you know, we can't agree to this
Amy Martin:text. We'd like the text to be reflected in this way. And the
Amy Martin:way that that text is clearly shows that there's not going to
Amy Martin:be funding. So it's very diplomatic. You have to know the
Amy Martin:ins and outs. You have to know the jargon to understand what's
Amy Martin:going on. I'm very blunt. I would prefer we're not doing
Amy Martin:that. You know what I mean? Yeah, but that's not how it
Amy Martin:works.
Amy Martin:How it works is like this.
Negotiator:We think it's still important to maintain an
Negotiator:explicit reference to the various organizations there, the
Negotiator:WMO, CEOs, IPCC, etc. So if we can streamline things....
Amy Martin:We're going inside the negotiation rooms right
Amy Martin:after this short break.
Erika Janik:Hey everybody, this is Erika Janik, Threshold's
Erika Janik:managing editor. Did you know that we have a Threshold
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Amy Martin:Welcome back to threshold. I'm Amy Martin, and
Amy Martin:I'm heading back into the Blue Zone at COP 26 the UN climate
Amy Martin:conference, I approach the first of several checkpoints where I
Amy Martin:need to present my press pass and my daily covid test results.
Guard:Morning.
Amy Martin:Good morning.
Guard:You need to remove your mask.
Amy Martin:The guard gives a nod to my covid test, scans my
Amy Martin:badge, and then a troubled look comes over his face, like, uh
Amy Martin:oh, something's wrong with your credentials.
Guard:Yeah, some bad news for you. Those guys have got the new
Guard:passes. Why haven't you picked one up?
Amy Martin:You've done this to me before. I'm not falling for
Amy Martin:it again. You have a good time today.
Amy Martin:This is his shtick. He pulled the same routine on me a few
Amy Martin:days earlier and enjoyed watching me get agitated as I
Amy Martin:walk away, he yells, "I've done it to everyone, especially the
Amy Martin:BBC!" Trying to solve the climate crisis is the kind of
Amy Martin:thing that can make people a little edgy. The pressure is on.
Amy Martin:The stakes could not be higher. So I really appreciated this
Amy Martin:guard taking the opportunity to have a little fun, lighten the
Amy Martin:mood a bit, create a moment of human connection in the midst of
Amy Martin:the madness. But there were other less delightful
Amy Martin:expressions of humanity on display as well. After that
Amy Martin:security check, everyone was funneled into a long snaking
Amy Martin:line, and at the busiest times it got really backed up.
Amy Martin:Sometimes you had to stand outside, barely moving for a
Amy Martin:half hour or more, and more than once, while I was waiting there,
Amy Martin:I saw people cutting in line. They would inch forward slowly,
Amy Martin:getting a foot ahead here, a shoulder ahead there, and in a
Amy Martin:few minutes, they'd be five or 10 people ahead of where they
Amy Martin:started. I was watching this happen one morning, and I heard
Amy Martin:a guy behind me say, "I guess some people don't know the
Amy Martin:meaning of a queue." That emboldened me a little bit. So
Amy Martin:the next time someone tried to edge past me, I said, "Excuse
Amy Martin:me, there's a line here," which was obvious. They just ignored
Amy Martin:me, and it ticked me off, but it also really made me want to
Amy Martin:laugh. I mean, we were there for a climate conference to solve a
Amy Martin:problem that requires the whole world to set aside their
Amy Martin:differences and work together, and some people were choosing to
Amy Martin:cut in line, to push themselves forward at the expense of
Amy Martin:slowing down the rest of us. It was just too perfect. It's the
Amy Martin:whole problem with climate change. in a nutshell. We have
Amy Martin:to cooperate to solve a problem altogether, and that requires us
Amy Martin:to manage our selfishness, to tolerate a little discomfort for
Amy Martin:the greater good, and that is just so hard for us. So here's
Amy Martin:humanity in this line, being human working extremely hard to
Amy Martin:solve a pressing global problem, but with some people being kind
Amy Martin:of asshole-y while they're doing it.
Shola Lawal:We were talking about this yesterday. It's
Shola Lawal:difficult to even agree to what seven people want to have for
Shola Lawal:dinner. Now imagine a conference of countries, it's difficult.
Amy Martin:This is my colleague, Shola Lawal again.
Amy Martin:After a few days of watching people from around the world try
Amy Martin:to work together on climate issues, she's feeling struck by
Amy Martin:the magnitude of the challenge.
Shola Lawal:No matter how we approach it, no matter where we
Shola Lawal:approach it from, what angle we take this from, it would always
Shola Lawal:take time. It would always take, not just one cup, it would
Shola Lawal:always take.
Amy Martin:But it's been. It's been 26 years they're doing
Amy Martin:literally your entire life.
Shola Lawal:I know, but what I'm saying is, look the way that
Shola Lawal:I see it. Do you think COP would end like, the way that I see it,
Shola Lawal:this is the new normal.
Amy Martin:Yeah, exactly. That's how I'm feeling too. I
Amy Martin:mean, it's like we need to basically not have this be a
Amy Martin:conference. We need this to be an ongoing, everyday thing that
Amy Martin:we do all the time.
Shola Lawal:We need to be paying more attention to these
Shola Lawal:issues, not just when we come to a two week conference. Yeah,
Shola Lawal:right. We need, we need more.
Amy Martin:The COP process does involve a lot more than this two
Amy Martin:week conference. There are various sub meetings planned
Amy Martin:throughout the year, and there's a whole scientific wing of the
Amy Martin:work, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which
Amy Martin:is constantly synthesizing and assessing the latest climate
Amy Martin:science. But even still, a whole lot of really important
Amy Martin:decision-making ends up getting crammed into these two weeks
Amy Martin:inside rooms that sound like this. I'm inside a negotiating
Amy Martin:room. It's a very sterile space, kind of like a giant office
Amy Martin:cubicle with long rows of white tables arranged in a rectangle
Amy Martin:in the middle and the constant numbing drone of a loud HVAC
Amy Martin:system. Microphones are evenly spaced on the tables next to
Amy Martin:small plaques with country names on them. Negotiators sit behind
Amy Martin:the microphones, and behind them, there's another row of
Amy Martin:chairs where support staff or advisors can sit. Every meeting
Amy Martin:is run by facilitators. Negotiators ask to be
Amy Martin:recognized, and then they wait to talk until they have official
Amy Martin:permission. And whenever a new person takes the floor, they
Amy Martin:start with something like,
Negotiator:Thank you very much, co facilitators, and good
Negotiator:morning everyone. So look first. Thank you very much for
Amy Martin:The language is thoroughly diplomatic. It's all
Amy Martin:about restraint and carefulness and extreme politeness. Everyone
Amy Martin:appears to have checked their emotions at the door. Words seem
Amy Martin:to flow through a sieve before they're spoken. All feeling
Amy Martin:color and vitality has been strained out, and no one visibly
Amy Martin:reacts to what other people say. Even when they must be extremely
Amy Martin:frustrated inside, facial expressions remain blank. For
Amy Martin:example, on one of the first days of the conference, I
Amy Martin:watched delegates from India and Saudi Arabia raise objection
Amy Martin:after objection about the order of items to be discussed. Not
Amy Martin:the content of the agenda items, the order in which they were
Amy Martin:going to be handled. It was an obvious delaying tactic, and it
Amy Martin:worked. They wasted a bunch of time, and the meeting ended
Amy Martin:before they could get through even half of the agenda and
Amy Martin:throughout the whole show, not a brow was furrowed, nor an eye
Amy Martin:rolled. It's just not done.
Negotiator:I think, you know, option one and two, it might be
Negotiator:good if to move us forward, that they can be combined. Because,
Negotiator:like I said, there are different elements.
Amy Martin:I found the negotiations at COP26
Amy Martin:fascinating because they were so boring. The goal of the people
Amy Martin:in these rooms is essentially to save the world, to try to stop a
Amy Martin:speeding train just before it goes flying off a cliff. Climate
Amy Martin:is a big, dramatic problem, so you'd think that what happens
Amy Martin:inside the negotiation rooms would be big and dramatic too,
Amy Martin:but it's not.
Negotiator:So there will be a conversation on finance going
Negotiator:forward. We all purposely created that precisely because
Negotiator:we knew that this mandate was expiring in 2020 and I hope that
Negotiator:parties are....
Amy Martin:The negotiators at COP are trying to make an
Amy Martin:agreement that representatives from every country in the world
Amy Martin:can say yes to. Just thinking about all of the different
Amy Martin:languages, customs and cultures in the room, is pretty mind
Amy Martin:boggling. And in that light, I can sort of see the purpose of
Amy Martin:the formal, hyper-polite, bureaucratic language. It can
Amy Martin:serve as an equalizer, a set of rules for communication that
Amy Martin:anyone can learn, stripped of context and specificity, more
Amy Martin:like computer code than organic human speech. But as I sat there
Amy Martin:listening to people speak this code, I couldn't help but wonder
Amy Martin:about the impact of excluding all the imagery beauty and
Amy Martin:authentic feeling from these negotiation rooms. I get why
Amy Martin:it's hard to incorporate those things into this context, but I
Amy Martin:also wondered what might happen if there was just a little bit
Amy Martin:more of something raw and real inside the Blue Zone.
Protesters:Our message is that we need to listen to the
Protesters:science. We need to act on that science, and we have to do it as
Protesters:soon as we physically can.
Amy Martin:I met this young protester outside of the Blue
Amy Martin:Zone on one of the first nights of the conference. She was
Amy Martin:trembling and fighting back tears as she explained to me why
Amy Martin:she had come out to march that night.
Protesters:We need to act today and not make empty promises.
Protesters:We're not looking for words. We're looking for action.
Amy Martin:The contrast between the conference and the protests
Amy Martin:was so stark. Inside it's a world of order and rules of
Amy Martin:process and procedure, plans and systems, people in business
Amy Martin:clothes sit quietly and wait to be called on before they speak.
Amy Martin:Outside, it's chaotic and loud. There are tears, there's
Amy Martin:laughter, there's a guy riding a bike in a panda suit. There are
Amy Martin:bagpipes and marching bands and lots of shouting. And there's a
Amy Martin:lot of criticism directed toward the Blue Zone.
Greta Thunberg:This is no longer a climate conference.
Greta Thunberg:This is now a global north greenwash festival. A two-week
Greta Thunberg:long celebration of business as usual and blah, blah, blah.
Amy Martin:That was Greta Thunberg speaking from the
Amy Martin:stage. And of course, she's not alone in this feeling. Many
Amy Martin:people think the UN delegates don't really care about the
Amy Martin:climate crisis, that this whole thing has become a sham, and
Amy Martin:although I think it's obvious that leaders need to be pushed
Amy Martin:to do much, much more on climate, I found myself longing
Amy Martin:for the protesters to be more specific in their attacks,
Amy Martin:because simply stamping this whole process as useless and
Amy Martin:corrupt feels reckless. That cynicism can damage the efforts
Amy Martin:of people like Saleem, Adelle and thousands of others inside
Amy Martin:the blue zone who do care deeply about the climate crisis and are
Amy Martin:working hard for meaningful action.
Amy Martin:On the flip side, it might be easy to say that the protesters
Amy Martin:only have slogans without solutions and more anger than
Amy Martin:information, but I think that would also be unfair. Many
Amy Martin:protesters are doing a lot in their own communities and
Amy Martin:internationally. Some of them had organized a whole parallel
Amy Martin:convention, the People's Summit during the two weeks of COP with
Amy Martin:dozens of learning sessions and interpretation in 11 languages,
Amy Martin:and the urgency and intensity of climate protests has helped to
Amy Martin:change the conversation. In the US, a strong majority of people
Amy Martin:now want the federal government to do more on climate including
Amy Martin:investing in renewable energy research and regulating carbon
Amy Martin:dioxide as a pollutant. That's according to surveys by Pew
Amy Martin:Research Center and Yale University, and protests are
Amy Martin:important in other ways too. When you're facing something as
Amy Martin:overwhelming as the climate crisis, it helps to know you're
Amy Martin:not alone.
Amy Martin:Why did you come out today?
Zara:Climate change. To help stop it. Because it's our topic
Zara:in our class at school. So it's something very new and
Zara:disastrous to me.
Amy Martin:This is Zara. She's nine. She was out marching with
Amy Martin:her mom and her younger brother, Zane.
Amy Martin:Is this the first time you've done a climate march?
Zara:Yes.
Amy Martin:What do you think about it?
Zara:It's very tiring. My legs are sore. But other than that,
Zara:it's quite exciting.
Amy Martin:As I moved back and forth between the conference and
Amy Martin:the protests, what I kept thinking about was how powerful
Amy Martin:it would be if we could get all of these people working together
Amy Martin:somehow. Here are some of the world's most dedicated climate
Amy Martin:leaders gathered in one city, and the majority of them want
Amy Martin:the same thing to prevent climate chaos. Here's Tina
Amy Martin:Stege, climate envoy from the Marshall Islands.
Tina Stege:This will be the decade that determines the rest
Tina Stege:of human history. We cannot let it slip by.
Amy Martin:And here's Grace, one of the protesters we met at
Amy Martin:the top of this episode.
Grace:I think just, time's running out, like it's we're
Grace:desperate at this point.
Amy Martin:Ultimately, I think the delegates and the protesters
Amy Martin:really need each other inside the conference. They could use a
Amy Martin:massive infusion of energy, emotion, urgency and simple,
Amy Martin:clear language. Out on the streets, they need processes and
Amy Martin:procedures and plans to turn their passion into meaningful
Amy Martin:action. It's kind of like the conference is the super ego of
Amy Martin:climate action and the protests are the id in isolation from
Amy Martin:each other, they're both made weaker. But if we could get
Amy Martin:these two parts of our collective psyche better
Amy Martin:connected, I think they could make each other much more
Amy Martin:effective. This was one of my favorite protests. Dozens of
Amy Martin:people standing in a long road, ringing the bells on their
Amy Martin:bikes. They're right outside the conference grounds, next to the
Amy Martin:security check in. And honestly, I don't remember the specifics
Amy Martin:of what they were advocating for, but the general message
Amy Martin:was, hurry up and make something happen in there, stop this
Amy Martin:speeding train, fix the climate crisis. But instead of shouting,
Amy Martin:this group was just standing there together, gently ringing
Amy Martin:their bike bells. As I walked past them and headed into the
Amy Martin:conference, I found myself wiping away tears. I'm not sure
Amy Martin:why. There was just something beautiful about them standing
Amy Martin:there together, making this quiet little chorus. You could
Amy Martin:say it was pointless, but was it any more pointless than spending
Amy Martin:20 minutes arguing over whether or not paragraph three should be
Amy Martin:combined with paragraph four? The truth is that we are in a
Amy Martin:climate emergency, and none of us really know for sure what to
Amy Martin:do. So maybe what matters is that we just do something, sit
Amy Martin:at the negotiation table, stand outside and ring a bell. Bear
Amy Martin:witness and try to tell the story.
Barack Obama:Keeping the rise in global temperatures to 1.5
Barack Obama:degrees Celsius will not be easy. It is going to be hard.
Amy Martin:This is President Barack Obama speaking at the
Amy Martin:start of the second week of the conference.
Barack Obama:The thing we have going for us is that humanity
Barack Obama:has done hard things before. I believe we can do hard things
Barack Obama:again. Yes, the process will be messy. I guarantee you every
Barack Obama:victory will be incomplete. But if we work hard enough for long
Barack Obama:enough, those partial victories add up. If we stay with it, we
Barack Obama:will get this done. So to all the young people out there, I
Barack Obama:want you to stay angry. I want you to stay frustrated, but
Barack Obama:channel that anger, harness that frustration, gird yourself for a
Barack Obama:marathon, not a sprint. For solving a problem this big, this
Barack Obama:complex and this important, has never happened all at once. If
Barack Obama:each of us can fight through the occasional frustration and
Barack Obama:dread, if we pledge to do our part and then follow through on
Barack Obama:those commitments, I believe we can secure a better future. We
Barack Obama:have to and what a profound and noble task to set for ourselves.
Barack Obama:I'm ready for the long haul, if you are, so let's get to work.
Barack Obama:Thank you very much, everybody.
Amy Martin:So what happened with loss and damage? And what
Amy Martin:else was accomplished at COP26? Find out next time when we
Amy Martin:conclude our coverage from Glasgow.
Leah:I'm Leah from Girdwood, Alaska. Reporting for this
Leah:season of Threshold was funded by the Park Foundation, the High
Leah:Stakes Foundation, the Pleiades Foundation, NewsMatch, the
Leah:Llewellyn Foundation, Montana Public Radio and listeners. This
Leah:work depends on people who believe in it and choose to
Leah:support it, people like you join our community at
Leah:thresholdpodcast.org.
Amy Martin:This episode of Threshold was produced and
Amy Martin:reported by me, Amy Martin, with help from Shola Lawal, Nick
Amy Martin:Mott, Erika Janik and Sam Moore. The music is by Todd Sickafoose.
Amy Martin:The rest of the Threshold team is Eva Kalea, Deneen Weiske and
Amy Martin:Caysi Simpson. Our intern is Emery Veilleux. Thanks to Sally
Amy Martin:Deng, Maggy Contreras, Hana Carey, Dan Carreno, Luca
Amy Martin:Borghese, Julia Barry, Kara Cromwell, Katie deFusco,
Amy Martin:Caroline Kurtz and Gabby Piamonte. Special thanks to
Amy Martin:Talia Farnsworth, Dan Nagler, Christopher Preston, Leslie
Amy Martin:Scott, Katy Scott, Joseph Harvey and Abe.
