Welcome back to Kinfolklore, where Andrea and Paul dive deep into the fantasy and sci-fi worlds we love. Few shows capture that blend of nostalgia, terror, and friendship quite like Stranger Things.

We return to Hawkins, where there are quarantine checkpoints, military surveillance, and the Party is committed to finding Vecna.

In this episode, we will discuss "The Crawl" and "The Vanishing of Holly Wheeler".

Welcome back to kinfolklore.

We're here today to return to Hawkins, where there are quarantine checkpoints, military surveillance, and our main characters are committed to finding Vecna, no matter the cost. I'm Andrea.

I mean, what else are they gonna do? They're fucking stuck in one spot. They're finding them no matter the cost. They can get the fuck out of there.

And I'm Paul, and for those of you who are new here, we're cousins who love breaking down fantasy and sci fi worlds that capture our hearts and our collective anxiety. And none of them do that more than Stranger Things, which always delivers on both.

And in these first two chapters of the final season, the core cast is scattered, traumatized and restless. The military is everywhere. The Upside down is literally beneath Hawkins.

And the kids who once played Dungeons and Dragons together are now navigating grief, guilt, and the creeping dread that Vecna is still out there somewhere.

Chapters one and two, come, come out swinging. Will begins to grapple with his connection to the hive mind. Holly Wheeler vanishes. Never saw that before. Never had a vanishing of any child before.

Oh, wait, yes, we did. That was the very first.

2 Pickney went missing. Barbara was still a child. Right?

And also, Obviously, will and 11 is on a mission. In this episode, we are discussing chapters one and two of the final season.

But spoiler warning for all four of the previous seasons of Stranger Things. If you haven't watched through chapter two yet, go back. Watch it. Like, why are you here?

Yeah, everybody's come back afterwards, all the kids are doing it. And you know what no one else are doing. Kin Folklore will also have adult content, but as Rockin Robin says, why would you want anything else?

So if you're here for yet another date that fails, broken promises don't happen at Enzo's. Due to mortal peril and the fate of the world hanging in the balance, steer clear of those military access control zones, AKA the Max Z.

Enjoy that TV dinner. Curl on up to however you listen to your podcast. And if you're listening, which I hope you are, because this pod is for you, Kinfolk. Let's go.

Let's talk about chapter one, the crawl.

You and me are going to do what wonderful things together. You're a mean one, Mr. Grinch. Oh, God.

They obviously saw the Grinch memes and decided to make some changes because someone's been to the gym. We're not talking about that episode quite yet, but someone's been working out.

Yeah.

All right, go ahead, Rocket Robin.

While the older teens plan the crawls, which is their covert system for sneaking Hopper into the Upside down beneath the military caravans. Over at the Wheeler house, the buyers are living on top of the Wheelers, and the tension is extremely high.

11 is training for her rematch against Vecna, this time with Hopper's watchful and careful oversight. Dustin at school stirs up some trouble with Jason.

Rest in pieces, our original crew of bullies, and pays for it when Andy and his goons jump him at Eddie's grade after school.

I'm mad we even have to know Andy's name.

I know. I didn't know Andy's name. I'm a little frustrated that at all we now know Andy's name. I mean, I'm sure it's been said before, but yeah, I. Whatever.

Bring back Jason. Jason was like a formidable foe until.

The Upside down opened up and ripped him in half. He was. He was a formidable foe for sure. And. And I mean, because Andy got beat up by Erica. Let's keep it. Let's keep it a buck.

This is not a good look for Dustin. Andy knew to bring reinforcements because him.

Okay, there were. It was like 4v1.

There was five. They jumped him because this. They jumped him. Which is not a good look. But if it was one on one, I think he takes Andy. I think he takes Andy.

I mean, Dustin put up a good fight. He did. No.

100%. 110%.

So after school as well, Lucas and Will are visiting Max, who is still in a coma at the hospital.

And Will accidentally sees Robin and Vicki sharing a private moment, which is entirely, entirely inappropriate because Vicki is at work taking care of sick people and they.

Just wheeled out a dead body. She makes a joke about stealing from the dead person. Oh, my gosh. Wild.

Wild. That night, Hopper's crawl goes entirely sideways when a Demogorgordon tears through the convoy, trapping him in the Upside Down.

Will, meanwhile, experiences a new kind of vision, one from the Demogorgon's point of view, something we haven't seen before. And in the episode's final moments, a Demogorgordon slips into the Wheeler home and rips a portal into Holly's bedroom.

And to kick off episode two, or chapter two, the Demogorgon brutally attacks Karen and Ted after Holly somehow is like really props to Holly.

She holds onto her bed, she runs out of the room, gets into the bathroom, convinces her mom only because she sees the blood on the back of her head, and. They fight for their lives. Karen and Ted are trying to protect Holly, and it basically drags Holly up into the Upside down because they fail.

But did not die so good.

Eleven chases the creature's trail and reunites with Hopper, and together, they follow the blood deeper through the Upside down until they reach something entirely new. So there's an enormous organic wall that even 11 can't break through.

Hopper's knife, Rambo knife definitely can't break through, even though he tries. And whatever is on the other side is beyond her psychic reach. Which is exactly why she believes Vecna must be in there.

Back in Hawkins, Nancy and Mike finally confront the consequences of keeping their parents in the dark. While trying to piece together also Holly's last few days, they realized that her imaginary friend, Mr. Whatsit, wasn't imaginary at all.

Holly had been speaking to someone that was actually real and people just couldn't see. And that someone knew that monsters were coming for Holly.

Across town, Joyce tries desperately to keep Will safe by refusing to let him tap back into the hive mind. He and Robin sneak away anyway to test his psychic connection, and what he discovers reframes everything.

Will wasn't seen through the Demogorgon earlier. He was seen through Vecna himself, as he saw the vision of him spinning around in the woods when they were talking about the crawl with his friends.

Their investigation leads to the truth about Mr. Whatsit. He is Henry Krill in his human form, manipulating Holly with soft words and promises. And Holly isn't just lost in the Upside Down.

She's being kept in Henry Krill's childhood home, exactly where Vecna wants her. Okay. Take a second here. And I'm gonna just say that because Karen spilled the liquor for us before she wrecked the Demogorgon.

No, no, no, no. There was no. There was no liquor there, though.

No, she just smashed it and that was it.

Because she finished the bottle earlier in the episode. Karen Wheeler was turned all the way up, which is why I'm quite impressed. Yeah, because her faculties seem to have been there, but she. She.

She had put the bottle two lips. That bottle was empty.

Even Ted was trying to troll it about. What? What are you on two already? She's like, I'm on the bottle, bro. Like, she was fine, but she smashes the bottle.

And due to that smashing of the bottle, we will not be pouring out any liquor for them as of yet. They're just hospitalized. But we will pour one out for Jake the Snake.

Rest in peace, Jake.

Rest in peace, Jake. Rest in peace. He was terrorized. Andy in the hallway, a true icon. Let him know that hellfire still lives.

And then, of course, the military convoy team that took all the wrecks. Yo, this is. This is a pattern. These guys just. There's, like, carnage on, like, lab workers, military personnel.

People just, like, die in mass that are in the. These. These categories. It's crazy. So let's pour one out for both Jake the Snake and the military convoy team. This goes out to all our fallen homies.

Yo.

Don't let the chin get like that, y'. All. I'm more upset about the snake. He didn't do anything.

I mean, he did nothing. He literally did nothing.

It wasn't his fault. Dustin put him in somebody's locker. That's not. That's not.

Dustin is responsible for the murder of two pets on this show.

Rest in peace, Muse. Rest in peace, Muse.

Muse. And Muse, too. Jake the Snake. So let's talk about it. Let's. Let's talk about. First of all, I. I had a blast. We did something that was great.

We figured out a way to, like, group watch and stream and. And watch it all together, which was absolutely amazing. But what did you. What did you think of this?

Like, kicking off of some of the noteworthy stuff? Like, what are some of your thoughts?

So I think we can talk now pretty openly about that first five minutes. And I got questions.

Okay.

I got questions. So, first of all. I think it was great to see Will fighting back. I think the.

Very much this show has given an impression that Will is weak and does not fight back and is not always the most useful member of the team. And so to see him shooting a demogorgon in the face, I was proud.

Casting Fireball, right? Like, amazing.

I was proud. I was very proud. He fought for his life, and.

And we know that this is moments after Elle contacted him and told him to stay where he was and that his mom was coming for him, so he had every reason to fight. So. Love seeing that. Love seeing that. What really bugs me about this first five minutes, though, is. He clearly sees Vecna.

You think he does.

We talked about this a lot, that his eyes were kind of, like, rolled back in his head, so I wasn't sure that he was able to actually see him, but then when he, you know, later in another episode has his eyes rolled back, he's able to see. So, like, what do you think? You think he's really seeing Vecna?

I think he's see. He's looking at something. It. It bugs me a little bit. I've watched it multiple times and I'm like, so did.

We'll see vectors and he know about Vecna the whole time. And maybe there. He's not intended to, but it begs the question. He certainly can hear and someone's talking to him. So I'm curious about why we never.

Yeah, he definitely can hear what's going on. For sure. He's definitely awake enough to do that. And I think, like, there's a lot of things that he. He reveals. Right. Like in this.

Throughout this run of episodes, this first four, the volume one, that we're like, well, how come we didn't know some of this stuff earlier? And we'll talk about it throughout this episode and next episode. But it's kind of interesting that he's.

He's finding out new things about how he experiences being part of the hive mind, but he's also withheld, I feel like, certain information that is pertinent to their missions, and it's fascinating that that's happened.

Yeah. I have questions about this new experience that he's having, which is clearly new. Right.

We've never seen will see through a Demogorgon's eyes before, so this is new. I have questions about why it's happening now and is it intentional?

So I think that that's something that we're going to need to learn very quickly in Volume two.

Yeah, I mean, like, it's very clear to me in the first scene that he was controlling the Demogorgon to make sure that Hop didn't get hurt. It did not feel like they were random killings because he goes right over where Hop is and goes to the driver, pulls the driver out and.

And as the last person that he kills. And he could have easily kept going and killed Hop. Right. So it's very clear that I don't.

I don't read that scene the same way. I don't think the Demogorgon knew that Hopper was there. I don't think we need to get stuck on this. I just didn't read the scene the same way.

Yeah. Okay, let's talk about, like, the training montage. Really. I, like, I want to go first of all, the outfit is phenomenal.

What'd you think of the montage.

I thought it was good. I saw. I think I sent you that thread that compared it to Siri from the Witcher. Which I was like. I was like, yeah, that tracks. That tracks.

She's treated.

Her dad and her. Her stepmom watching. It's. That tracks. I think that.

I think it's super helpful because I think we saw at the end of season four that Elle had some new powers, but she hadn't finished her training at the Nina project, and Brenner told her she wasn't ready to face Vecna and she lost. Brenner was right. So I think what's good about this is that we see that Elle is trying new things. She's doing those. These jumps now, so she can.

I mean, Brenner said she'll need to fly.

She's. Yeah.

Or was that Owens?

No, that was Brenner.

That was Brenner. So she isn't exactly flying, but she's coming close. She is. Her reflexes are good. She's paying attention. She's thinking strategically, too.

I can do this. And it cuts off this a second here. If I do this, it will cut off a second there, and I'll get under time.

I. I have to say, even though I think that both Hopper and Joyce are way too overprotective of Will and El in this, in these two episodes, I do think that Hopper is right. She's too eager to get back in the fight.

Right, Agreed.

I think that when you're that eager to get back in the way that she's fighting with Hopper about going on the crawl, that's dangerous. Like, that can become really dangerous because your enemy can explain will you get. But I. I like the training montage. I thought it was great.

Yeah, me too. Me too. I. And I love. I love. I love the tie in about the Witcher, because it's like Joyce.

And it instantly put me in, like, the mind when you show me that about Geralt and Yen and just, like, watching Siri and looking over. So I. I get that.

I also think it's fascinating that speaking to her eagerness getting in the fight is that she's like, we're talking about fractions of a second, seconds of like, what he told. Like, you have to do it in this amount of time, and she actually makes the time.

So it kind of indicates to us that she's getting closer to being ready. I don't know how they're gauging that timeframe that makes her ready, but I do.

I do Think it's fascinating that, that she's getting closer and that he's, and he's, you know, I land in the same place as you. A little bit of caution here to keep her from rushing into something that could ultimately, you know, not work out. We've seen it not work out. Right.

So he's, he's, he's, he's. And he's got some, he doesn't say. He has context.

I hope that they talk about that, like, you know, as well, but we are aware and like we talked about previous, that there's probably some context between their relationship that he, he knows more about Vecna than what he's letting on, at least at this point. So I hope that that comes up too in the, in the next run of episodes. Um, I, I, I really love the Holly stuff. I want to get into this because.

I think that. The, I think that the conversation with her and Mike was great.

But before we get to that, this tie in of her spinning around on the wheel and Will kind of seeing, like, the spinning in the air and this, like, new kind of, like, connection. I, I guess I'm wondering.

What is it that, like, I guess I kind of, I guess I want to ask you, like, what did you think about the way that they're kind of, like, setting up this reveal and Holly's part in all of this and the Mr. Whatsit stuff? And, like, what did you think about all of that?

Like, how, what were your feelings about that, knowing that it's connected to, like, Wrinkle in Time and all that.

I like bringing Holly more into the story. Yeah, I think that was great. I think it gives us a really good moment with her and Will.

I mean, sorry, her and Mike, which, you know, Mike is a very irritating character sometimes, but I think that he does thrive in giving people motivation to believe in themselves. He does that here with, with Hollywood. I really like the way that he had already been incorporating her into his D and D stuff.

He just hadn't told her yet, which just shows sort of, like, how much Mike has been thinking about his sister, even though he never really talks about her on the show. I don't really like the Mr. Whatsit stuff. I think that it was. Staged as it was going to be a reveal.

The audience was way ahead of the characters in the story, and that felt clunky and, like, I don't want to be the naysayer about the show. I loved these four episodes. I had a great time watching them. But that the fact that. Especially on my second watch, the Mr. What's it reveal was so.

Seemed silly to me. I was like, why are they waking up, Karen? Like, like, we're. We're the audience, and we have as much information as them.

In some cases, we have more information than they do. And that's.

That's something the show has always done, because if you have your main character split over continents, which in season four, your audience is going to know more than them all the time, right? But the notion that, like, they wouldn't have figured out that Vecna, who can make himself appear to people, might be appearing as Holly, Like.

Like, who else could it have been?

It's so insane. They do. I. I've seen a bunch of creators talk about this. You and I have talked about this. It's like, you have seen interdimensional beings.

You have seen people go into other people's minds. You're friends with a girl who has telekinetic powers.

There's, like, literally a person who is in a coma right now because she was brought back to life after dying. And y' all are like, oh, she just has an imaginary friend. She must be imagining this one. Nobody stopped and was like, wait, hold on. Imaginary friend.

Like, something might be happening here.

And then the absolute gaslighting that Mike Wheeler does to his little sister sent me up the wall.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, the monsters might be coming. The monsters might. There's no monsters in Hawkins. Mike. Why are you lying to this little girl? She calls him on it, though, in the Great Divide.

It is a Great Divide egg moment. She calls him. She calls him out. She says. She says, I don't believe you. Like, she literally tells him, I don't believe you anyway.

It's definitely giving. It's definitely giving. Aang in the Great Divide. Like, let me just lie to you to your face.

I was cracking up because I was like, this is just like, at the end of the Great Divide, when Aang is like, here's a story about how I knew both of these people. And it's like, no, no, Avatar. We don't believe you. Anyway, Mike. So I. And. And I like that.

This comes back later in the second episode where Nancy is like, we could have prevented all of this. We knew what was going on. And we didn't share that with our parents. We didn't share it with Holly. We didn't adequately prepare them.

We didn't try to get them out of Hawkins. I think that's legitimate. I think Lucas also makes. In that conversation. I think Lucas also makes legitimate points that Vecna isn't really about.

Like, he's not really on a revenge tour here. Like, he has a purpose for everything.

That said, I do think that maybe Karen and Ted would have had a better chance if they knew that Demogorgons were a thing.

100% they would.

Let's just say Karen and Ted did better than I would have against. If I saw Demogorgon for the first time, I probably would have died. There's no way. There's no way Karen and Ted, they held their own.

I wasn't expecting it from Ted. I thought he was going to go out right away. But, you know, after he said his little heavens, heavens to Betsy moment, he. He got ready. He.

He used the only weapon he had.

The golf club. Yeah, it was a golf club. I just don't know how. How did. How does Nancy have firearms? But all he had was a golf club. Like, Nancy has legit firearms.

I'm sure he had firearms somewhere. Like, I was one of him. To like, get something like a golf club and a bottle felt like, man, there had to be something else in that house. But.

But they don't know about that stuff. I mean, Nancy told us she keeps it hidden. So it's like the whole.

I. I like that they had to confront that because it has been frustrating how close to the action the Wheeler parents have always been, but they've never. They've been kept in the dark. I also think that the show is doing a good job of like, referencing some of the. The like, meta commentary about it.

Like the fight they had before Holly got taken where she's like, do you even know how old Holly is? Nobody does. Don't be upset with yourself, Ted. Nobody knows how old Holly is.

He's age 6 years and 18 months. How did this happen? Oh, man, it's so funny.

Nobody knows how old Holly is. Holly is supposed to be between 9 and 10 years old. Yeah, the math is not math.

No, no. Oh, my gosh. It's so funny. It was funny. It was hilarious. Because maybe Nancy didn't even know when she was like, I have a six year old at my house.

Maybe she wasn't even six at that point.

I know. Maybe she was seven or eight. I mean, at this point, nobody knows how old Holly is.

Oh my gosh. It's so. Yeah, it was. It was funny. And she loves. She loves a bubble bath. She loves a bubble bath. I'm going to give.

She's, you know, like a little wine and a bubble bath. Shout out to her.

She's like, you know, I had another gripe earlier in the episode, which was that Joyce doesn't help at all.

Yeah.

With breakfast, with cleanup, with nothing. Joyce. You weren't even going to a job. You were going to help Hopper. They could have waited, right? They could have waited.

And what was Joyce doing? What was Joyce doing that she needed to be there for the training?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Just hanging out.

Oh, my goodness. She could have helped. She could have helped.

I just think that she's obligated to help as the adult.

Yeah.

And you're putting up my two kids. Right. I should be helping. Like, on occasion, the buyer should be making breakfast for the Wheelers. Like, it just felt very much like.

Karen is not just. Like, responsible for her family now and taking care of them. She's also responsible for the buyers. And I'm just like, ah, that's not cool, Ted.

With another crazy one liner. What do you want me to do? Put them to the street? Is that an option?

Listen, is that wrong, though? Would you want Joyce, Jonathan and Will in your house for 18 months? I mean, I guess it's been 16 months, but something like that.

What are they gonna do, though? Like, it's kind of crazy. Like, where would they go? Like, I guess they could have found. She could have.

She could have found a job, I guess, while she was there and got back to her roots and done the whole thing. Yeah.

You're telling me there's no. Not a single vacant apartment or house in all of Hawkins, even though surely some people left before the quarantine.

And you're telling me that Nancy and Jonathan are respecting those boundaries of downstairs?

Oh, no way. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. As soon as. As soon as Karen goes to bed, we know what's going down.

Oh, my gosh.

We know what's going down. As soon as. As soon as Karen goes to bed, we know what's going down.

So back in the story here, I think something that emerges, speaking of Nancy is her as, once again a leader. And it looks like her and Mike are teaming up a lot. As the Wheeler siblings have been leaders of their separate groups.

They're kind of like, you know, and she really led the party, truthfully, while. While Mike was off on his adventures with Argyle and Will and Jonathan.

But I think, like, it's kind of interesting to see them teaming up and to see Nancy as like, kind of the operational commander of the crawl. Like, I. I love this stuff.

I love the way that they're finally, as you've asked for many times, attempting at least to Workshop some of these ideas and have a plan. What was your takeaway?

So it seems like. And I can't be 100% sure, but it seems like Nancy also might be the manager of the radio station. And that all four.

All four teens work there, which is kind of incredible. That's, like, a good cover for a planning operations base. Right. I really like that her.

Her and Mike were on the same page, because the same plan Nancy goes through with the older teens, Mike then goes through with the party. I think that both Mike and Nancy are natural leaders, and it's great to see everyone kind of defer to them. But also, I think it's great when they.

When Robin and Steve kind of push back and are like, we keep doing this, and it's not working. We've done this more than 30 times, and it's not getting us anywhere, because I don't.

I think Steve's saying, maybe Vecna is dead, as is, like, kind of crazy. Like, I was like, steve, Steve, I know you weren't present when.

When Will was grabbing the back of his neck at the end of season four, but I was certainly there, and.

Vex is not dead. Yeah.

But I. I really also like that Mike takes up for his sister. I don't think. I think it's later in the episode when he's like, no, this is serious. Like, what. What she saw is real.

And Jonathan also takes her seriously as well. So I. I love seeing Nancy in her full girl boss. Moment. Like, I. I think that this is, like, the role that Nancy has always been destined for.

She's always kind of played the investigator role, but she's. She's very good at being a. A woman of action. She's not the type of person who. She gathers her information and then she takes action on it.

You know, if it were up to Murray, they would be doing recognizance for years before taking any action. But I like that. And I also think it's appropriate that the older teens are essentially. They're not teens anymore.

They're adults now, and they're being treated as such. I think that that's great. They're. They're taking on kind of. Equal roles to Joyce and Hopper, and I. I.

It feels like, for the most part, Hopper is giving them that respect. Joyce, I think, could take some notes, but I thought it was. I. I thought going.

And also, I think it's important to tell the audience exactly what the plan is, and I love that they've been doing that so well in all of the first four episodes. Episodes, like, they've walked us through every plan so that we know what to expect, and we know we can tell immediately when it's going wrong.

Like, we knew Hopper's plan was. Was off the rails almost immediately.

I didn't understand the plan from the beginning of him going down there and doing what he. I was just like, this is what y' all have been doing 36 times. This has been successful 36 times. You guys have. You guys are count.

Should be counting yourself lucky. This is insanity. Like, what are you hoping to find?

What's disturbing. What's disturbing to me is sending just Hopper down there to find. To try to find Vecna. Hopper hasn't met Vecna in this form.

Maybe wouldn't even know what he's looking for necessarily. Like, it seems like it makes more sense to send Steve, Robin, or Nancy, who have looked this demon in the face. Yeah.

So I don't really get why Hopper's the one, but I understand that Hopper has that kind of, like. No, I'm the first man in energy. He also has military training. He also was a cop, so I get that piece of it. But. I don't know.

Like, I have a lot of questions about what the. What the plan was beyond finding Vecna. Like, so Hopper sees Vecna in the Upside Down.

What then?

Yeah, what. What was the next step of this plan was Then. Then you plan another crawl so that Elle can sneak up on him.

And also, you know that Vecna's not in the Upside down because Elle can search the whole Upside down from the Void.

Right. Especially since she does it when she first walks into the Upside down, searching for Holly.

Like, she's, like, searching in the Void right when she walks in. And especially since Hopper doesn't chew gum, and we know that snipers chew gum. Okay. Like, so. So I don't know what he was doing.

Lucas has some really solid lines, which I'm glad they gave Lucas stuff to do. Really solid stuff. Because his hair in it, but.

Oh, God, the wig on Lucas Druff this season. Jeez. Um, Yeah, I think Lucas had a lot of really solid things. I think Lucas's ability to connect the dates, to be able to say that, oh, wait, I've.

You know, we've seen this before, and it's around the same time. It's November 3rd, and we're three days away from when Will went missing. Of what started this. All I think was.

Was super important to bring kind of like, Nancy and Mike were normally the ones who can spot that kind of thing, but are now off their center because it's their mom and their dad and their sister. Like, he was able to, like, say, okay, no, let me ground you two, and kind of bring them back even, you know, even to some extent, him lobbying.

Max, even in a coma, knowing that, you know, maybe she can hear, maybe she can't, but that he really thinks that the war. He's like, like you said, I think, like, the last battle started tonight, and we're going to need the whole party.

Like, we're going to need everybody. And I think, like, him seeing and connecting these dots is really a big growth. I mean, he has always kind of been the one to go off.

Like, in season one, he was like, y' all are doing it wrong. I'm going off on my own. I don't trust anything.

Then he kind of still was kind of in that phase of, like, at some point in season four, where he was like, I need to fit in. I'm tired of being this person. He kind of was always kind of lone wolfing it and then coming back to the group. I think he feels firmly planted in.

This is a team effort, and we're going to need everyone in a way that I don't know that we've seen. Always seen Lucas, even though he eventually ended up there in every season, there were parts of him that felt like, I have the answer, you don't.

And I think he's again, bringing some answers, but grounding people and rounding the crew up to, like, understand what he's seen. But before he just goes off and does something on his own, which I think is. Is cool. I think it's good to see, you.

Know, so, yeah, and I. I think we should. I think that. That the date. I also think that when Lucas brings up the date, it's November 3rd. That really grounds the audience in a couple of things.

One is we're coming up on the fourth anniversary of Will's disappearance. That's significant. Which is also crazy to me that it's been nine years for the audience, but it's only been four for them in story.

Yeah, but also that pay attention to dates. You know, it was. It's sort of reminder that dates matter in this story and that date will become important later in another episode.

And so I think it was a really keen observation by him, which I honestly don't think the others would have remembered. Like, they're so into. Everyone is so mission driven. Right. Everybody is really like, we have to find Vecna. We have to find Vecna.

Elle obviously has faced off with him. Nancy had that horrible vision. Everyone is so focused on their end game that they're, they, they're missing stuff.

They're missing stuff like Holly's imaginary friend. They're missing the, you know, the significance of the date. And that significance of the date might be the re.

One of reasons that the Demogorgons and VCNA are ramping up. Right.

This whole season wraps up in a matter of days because the first few episodes only cover two days.

Yeah. And I saw something earlier, I don't remember the creator's name.

There's some other dates that came that come into this based on the references of in the story as well. Like apparently, and I may be getting this wrong, I'm going to double check it.

Back to the future, the date that when, when Robin and, and, and will go on this mission. She calls out, the flux capacitor is going down and the flux capacitor is from, obviously from Back to the Future.

And apparently that date that they went back in the time back to the future was November 5th. So it's like all of those. So they're November 3rd. Then I think it's like November 4th or November 5th.

So there's like these dates that are kind of like in story, in universe and out of universe that are all happening in the same run of time. Like the 6th, the 3rd, the 4th, the 5th, the 6th. That I think it could be interesting to see how they play with time and how they.

We've been talking about there might be some time stuff this whole time. And I think that we're going to see some of that as this plays out with the dates in November.

And I don't think that Flex, I, I, he made a compelling argument about the Flex capacitor not being an accident to be mentioned when they go off and make that discovery. And Robin, and Robin continuously is one of the people who mentions Back to the Future or understands Back to the Future.

So I wonder how that's going to play out. I don't know. I mean, we don't know. It may just be coincidence, but I.

Do think that time, I don't think anything's a coincidence. If that's true, I think that's significant. But I don't believe in coincidences.

In this story, especially the way that this first volume was written, there are all kinds of callbacks to earlier seasons. Most of them are in episodes three and four. So we'll talk about that in our next episode. But I don't believe in coincidences.

So if that's true, I absolutely think it is significant.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out the date, the actual date on it, but whether it was the fifth or the fourth. But it is. It is one of those dates that I believe he said before. Before.

In between when Will goes missing and the date that we're at in the hospital, it's either the fourth or the fifth. So let's see.

The fifth would make sense. So if it is the fifth. That would make. I mean, that. That would probably line up with episode five, right? Like, which is.

I think that's the one that's called the Bridge.

The Bridge. That's exactly what.

Actually, that's exactly what he said. So I think that we. We'll talk more about, like, what the Bridge could mean when we talk about chapter three in particular.

But I think that that creator could be onto something.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. When I saw it, I was like, wow, this is really, really fascinating stuff. So we'll see.

Can we talk about Steve and Jonathan?

You mean how Nancy brings out their inner Neanderthal and they chase. They. They cannot control it. Like, there's something like. Like both of them are just wilding out, wild for the night.

All right, so it starts with, like, the triathlon of all triathlons up Radio tower, where either one of them could have died. Like, died just being ridiculous.

And then the whole thing is so annoying. Like, I. I find if I were Nancy, I would. I would address it straight on. Cut it out. The whole thing is so irritating. I.

It was a funny scene, don't get me wrong. Like, I appreciated it as a viewer, but. But you can just see how much it's wearing on Nancy.

And the fact that neither of them is recognizing how annoying it is to her is alarming. But this, the crash out in the. In the van. It was. It was so good because they both said to the other person what they.

What actually they need to hear Steve. Steve is not wrong that Jonathan doesn't always fully see Nancy or respond to Nancy's needs. That's fine.

But also, Steve is wrong that Nancy would prefer them to bring flowers to the hospital than stay on Mission. Steve has tried this before with Nancy. When? In season one, when she was like, I want to look for Barb.

And he was like, oh, maybe we should go to the movies and just pretend that nothing's happening. So he's not right about Nancy. Nancy does prefer to stay on mission. I mean, she's at the hospital executing a mission. Like.

Like she doesn't want flowers. Right.

She.

Her brothers with her. Lucas is there. Like, I don't. You know, I don't think that she would want them to. To stop. Stop looking for Hopper.

And it goes against. It goes against Steve's own advice to Dustin. You know, when they're walking on the tracks and he tells them and they're in search of, like, dart.

And he's like, dustin's all broke up about maybe losing out on the opportunity to get with Max because she's, like, not into him or whatever. He goes, you know what? You gotta just act like you don't care. Like, you know, like.

Act like you're just, like, you know, like, ambivalent to the whole thing. And he's out here doing grand gestures all the time. And I'm not saying that his other approach was right.

I'm just saying it goes completely opposite to what he's been doing.

And Jonathan, I think, is doing exactly what Steve told Dustin to do, which is kind of like, I'm just playing it cool and just, like, kind of moving the way that I normally move through the world, which I don't think is exactly right is the right tone either. For what?

No, they're both. They're both wrong.

Right, Exactly.

But they're wrong about different pieces. And Steve also needed to. The advice that he gives to Jonathan about Nancy. Steve could take it about Dustin.

Agreed.

We haven't talked about Dustin and Steve, but they are not in a good place.

Yeah.

And Dustin's being an. I want to be perfectly clear. Dustin's being an. Like, he is being mean to Steve at points where there's no reason to be mean to Steve.

He's using every opportunity to call Steve an idiot.

But Steve is responding in anger, and he's not seeing how hurt his friend is, how much pain Dustin is experiencing, which is why he's behaving that way. And also, there's a little bit of, like, you're calling Dustin. When you need him, when you need help. Right. Not like.

It really struck me that when things were going bad at the radio, he calls Dustin, and Dustin's like, you guys have to figure this out.

Like, I'm I'm on the way to school. I'm in school. Like, what?

Like, you read. Like, figure it out, read the manual.

But then when Dustin is all beaten up, his friends Lucas and Mike and Will are all like, oh, my gosh, is your nose broken? Like, there? And Steve is just annoyed. Like, you. He's like, you know, you. Like, you miss the crawl. And so I think that he could be making his own.

He could be taking his own advice about showing up for people when they're struggling.

I agree. No, I 100% agree. I think he's. He's putting. Yeah, he's placing. He's putting. He's implementing the advice in the wrong.

To the wrong person at the wrong time, 100%. And I think. I think you're. I think, like, I really do see what's going on with Dustin. He's hurting, you know, And I.

And I think he's hurting and grieving what he saw. I mean, imagine knowing.

Not only carrying the burden of losing a friend, not only carrying the burden of knowing that some other world exists that's impacting everything around you, that's changed the whole face of your town and has also, I mean, we just say hurting you, killing his friend, but also hurt and almost killed Max. So another one of his friend. You lost a lot, right?

And. And what's going on with Susie and.

And I don't think. I think. I mean, probably, like, if he's in this space, I'm sure he's not really checking in over a radio to try to catch up with Susan.

You know what I mean? And so that part of his life has changed. You know, he's had to cover up quite a bit, and he's carrying all of that.

And then to also walk up to a town where people look at the person who. Who you know was a hero as a villain.

But not only that, to carry with you the last words he said to which his friends make light of at the table because they don't understand that those were the last words that were said to him. None of them were there even in the Upside down when that was happening.

Lucas was on the other side, or right side up, watching what was happening with Max and fighting. And the other two weren't even in Hawkins yet. And Eddie explicitly said, I need you to go round up the other lost sheep to be the one who does that.

So he's not wearing that hellfire shirt just to be an asshole, although it could give off that vibe to everyone around him.

He's also wearing it because he made a promise in death to his friend that I'm going to continue the work that you did of making sure that people that, that are not in the in crowd, not conforming, will have a place of shelter and safety. And he hasn't really figured that out yet. He's still figuring out how to do it for himself and I think and complete this mission. So it's fascinating.

I, I, we watched that scene of him going in on the trailer. We knew he wasn't going to be in a good place. It was hard to see how bad a place he was in, to be completely honest.

Yeah. And like, I, I think there's a couple things going on with him.

Like, I think for one, he doesn't necessarily want to be close to Steve because Steve is inside this group and anybody in this group can die and he could lose another big brother. So I think he's keeping him a little at arm's length for that reason.

But I also think that, like, the difference between Steve and Eddie was that Eddie said things to Dustin like, don't ever change. Henderson. He accepted him for who he was fully. And Dustin kind of throws that at his friends when they're like, hopper told us to blend in.

And he's like, but we don't do that. Like, we don't. We're not the kids who blend in. We are the weirdos we've always been the kids who don't follow the rules.

Who do what, who are true to ourselves and true to our friends. And Steve is not that guy. Like, he's just not. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong. Steve is talented in other ways. Right.

He is charming. People like him. He, he was popular for a reason beyond just his good looks. Good looks doesn't always just lead to popularity. But.

I think Dustin is going through in understanding what he really lost with Eddie. And. He'S hurting in a way that I just don't think that any of his friends really get. But Steve gets least of all.

Yeah.

And I think it does seem like Steve is being a little bit more unkind. That said. Dustin's being a real to him. Like, I haven't. He's not being nearly as mean to the other kids as he is to Steve.

And I think that's in part because Steve can dish it out as good as him. And can you imagine Dustin talking to Will like that? No.

They would crumb. It would crumb. They would crumble. None of them can take what I mean, proof of that is how they're like, having a hard time.

They're all talking to each other, but he's losing his mind, man. Like, what are we gonna do? Like. Because he's like, they can't.

And when he shows up and he's all, like, in the seat, by the way, that Eddie used to occupy when he sits there, they're all like, well, he's like, who's losing their mind? Like, what's going on? And they're like. They're shook.

Andy's losing his mind.

Yeah. Yeah.

I will say this. That was dope to see Lucas and Mike stand up to Andy and his friends.

Oh, so good.

And Lucas being like, my little sister took you, bruh.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, But I think that could be part of the resentment. You say he's not doing this to anybody else.

That could be part of the resentment that he's feeling towards Steve. Because sometimes when you're in a fight, he's telling him all these things he shouldn't be doing and almost blaming him.

And while he says that to his other group of friends, I haven't seen Steve this season stand up for him or be like, when he saw him bloodied, come into his bike, be like, what the f. Like, who did this to you? Let's go find him. Like, what is. You know, like, none of that.

And so his hero, in some ways, he had two heroes, but this hero, I think Eddie was ascending to be his hero.

Eddie kind of kept him safe at school, and he was becoming someone he looked up to and then ultimately became the person who he was like, that's my North Star. I think Steve, when you see him, when they meet and they. That. That.

That faithful meeting where Dustin kind of picked him off the pile with flowers and was like, hey, come on. You're good enough. Yeah.

He was like, I need someone who can drive bas. Basically.

Yeah. I think, like, there's a scene where he's fighting off the.

He's about to fight off the Demogorgons, and he's going out there, and Max goes, is he crazy? And. And Dustin looks out, like, with, like, starry eyes and says, no, he's awesome.

And he's like this little kid who sees him, and he sees him on this pedestal, and I think what's happened is that. He'S been knocked off the pedestal a little bit, that Eddie's kind of on this pedestal. And I almost think that he sees him more at a peer setting.

And the problem is that Steve is not meeting him as a mentor. He's meeting him as a peer with, like, shaming him and telling him what he's not doing and why don't you do this? And he's arguing with him.

Like, he would argue with Jonathan where the question is, what's up, bro? Like, what's happening with you? Like, tell me.

And also, I think Steve is. Is preoccupied with trying to win back Nancy, and Dustin needs him.

Right, Agreed.

Like, I don't think Steve really sees anything outside of Nancy when Nancy's in a. In the room. And it's clear that Nancy's in the room a lot. Right. They're. They're all working together on this and they're all playing a role.

Although I do. This is a change of subject for a moment. I do have a question about, like, why Erica isn't included and in the crawls and why she's. She's out group.

When Erica was clutch at the end of season four, they needed Erica. So I, you know, I think that, that.

Back to Steven and Nancy, I think part of it is, like, Dustin really needs his older brother and Steve is, like, very focused on this girl who's with somebody else.

Right.

And it's just silly, but we should. So we're running a little long. So let's. Let's talk about Robin and Will because I think that is going to become, like, the core new duo.

Yeah, it's a. It's a good duo.

I love it. They're so good about linking up characters. Robin is bringing out something in Will that we haven't seen.

Will has been so quiet for, like, two seasons.

Right.

Not to say that Will didn't have a role in season four. He absolutely did. We learned some new information about Will. He played a role, but he's never quite comes into focus.

And like, having Robin have his back gave him the. In my opinion, gives him the confidence to stand up to Joyce later and give. And give Joyce the reading that she so dearly deserved. She's so there.

I, you know, us, I stand 10 toes down for Joyce Byers, but she was wrong. Okay. She had two bad moments in these episodes. Her first bad moment was when she told. Will that he couldn't go.

He couldn't go in the van to replace Dustin, but Jonathan could.

But you want to go. Yeah.

What? It's. It's too dangerous.

Yeah.

I'm sorry. It's too dangerous for. For Will, who is damn near a grown man now. But Jonathan, you can do it, right?

Yeah.

I wish my disposable child can do it.

Even Hopper calls her out on that, like, I wish. I wish Will could help, but you keep that kid wrapped in bubble wrap.

But again, I'm like. I'm like, Hopper. For real. For real. Because you got the superhero over here sitting in the radio station like a. Like.

Like, she doesn't have superpowers.

Like, she doesn't have superpowers. She's sitting there like. Like a stressed out fucking jets fan, watching her team. Like. Like. Like, oh, my God, what's gonna happen?

Like, she's literally like a sports fan, and she is the one who could change everything. It's crazy.

It's. It's insane. So both Hopper and Joyce are acting silly, but then when she, like, gets snippy with Robin, Will is like, all right, it's gone too far.

It's gone too far.

Yelling at Robin. Like, Will isn't able to make his own choices. Like, why are you yelling at Robin?

Like, first of all, you don't even know her that well, and she's not your child. And why are you not talking to Will? And Will, like, checks her on that. I think it was great when he was like, yeah, I'm right here.

Like, and also, like, next time that you tell me to do something, I may not do it because my plan actually worked and yours didn't. I was like, whoa, little bass. Got a little bass in his voice. Look at that. We found out a lot about Will in these first two episodes.

He ran from a Demogorgon, shot one in the face, jumped off of trees, was failed by his jansport, all these things. Had a little bass in his voice to his mom. You know what I mean? It was good. Will is having a nice little run of episodes, to be honest.

Yeah, he's good. I. I'm glad. I'm glad that we're seeing very early. Will is growing up, maturing, having.

Having, like, more character growth, because I just don't feel that we got that we got much from him in. In seasons three, two and three, and even four. Like, in two, he's possessed most of it. So we're not seeing Will. Right. And we'll.

We're gonna talk extensively about season two when we talk about season. Episode. Excuse me, we're gonna talk extensively about season two when we discuss chapter four. But Will is a character.

I never felt like I got a good sense of him. Aside from, like, we know that Will can be a little bit more childish than the others. We know that Will is quieter.

And I got a little worried when going back to the bullying moment when Lucas and Mike rolled up on Andy and his friends, and Will didn't say anything, and I was like, oh, here we go again. But I think what we're seeing is that Will is building confidence, and I really like that him and Robin are linked up this season.

I think it's going to be great. Robin is also really great. Like, suddenly Maya Hawk became kind of a main character, a main star of the show. Like so much of this show is.

Is about Robin or Robin is in major scenes. And that. I think that's wonderful. I love Robin. I think she's a. She's a real fun hang. She is. She is funny. She's also always been the person who.

Can make sense of things quickly. She's observant. And so I like that they paired her up with the.

The character who actually requires you to look closely at to understand what's fully going on with him. So I think that's a great matchup. I could use more of them and less of Jonathan and Steve.

Yeah, and I think we're going to get that, and I think we're going to get some Robin and Steve again, because I think maybe she can be one that can hopefully help him to see where he's dropping the ball with. With Dustin or vice versa. Or Dustin.

I think maybe Nancy will call him in on that. Yeah, I. One of.

I think one of other Robin or Nancy is going to have to rein him in on that because like Steve said in season four, he sometimes, like, he needs the call out so he can adjust. You know, he needs. He needs that moment where somebody says, hey, dude, you're. You're doing this wrong.

Yeah, I agree. And. And I think that. I think that Robin is observant in a way that a lot of the other characters aren't. And we've known that since the beginning.

Like her. I mean, she decoded freaking Russian when we first met her. Right. And she. How many. How many children are you friends with? You know what I mean?

So she's observant of a lot of things. And I think that she is. Empathetic. I think that she is, like you said, fun. I think that because she feels so deeply.

That's why, as she's explained herself, her words get ahead of her sometimes. Or maybe she runs before she actually catches up to herself. But I think she was instrument. I mean, think about it.

Think about the things that she's been instrumental in decoding. So she is, I think, a main portion of what's going to happen here when she's been part of decoding the the Russian.

Message to be able to help them to understand what was happening in the mall.

She's been part of partnering with Nancy to fully understand how music could save Max in Inside with Vecna and kind of like coming, like, unraveling the whole Krill, Henry Krill, Victor Krill, Vecna connection.

And she's been instrumental in what we'll talk about in 3 and 4 and kind of giving Will some agency and also in these episodes, some agency and some belief in himself to see that his ideas, he doesn't have to wait and defer to his mom or to his friends or to everybody else. He actually can have a say in how this thing goes, which ultimately plays out in a way that will save them all. As we'll talk about more.

So I think Robin is central to this, to this whole mission. You know, as I feel about Nancy, I think each person is playing their part really well. So I really.

I really enjoy watching her work, you know, and she's got 500 episodes under her belt. They better listen to her, you know what I mean? Like, she's rocking. She's rocking Robin.

I'm also glad that they just went straight into her and Vicki being a couple. I'm glad that we're.

Yeah, I. I was very hopeful that we would start the season and they were already a couple, and so I'm glad we don't have to go through the, like, Max and Lucas getting together kind of thing. I'm. I'm glad that they're just together and that's great. And they're.

They seem really happy, even though, you know, Robin apparently cancels on Vicki whenever she has a supernatural errand to run, so.

And what is in this? These breadsticks that Enzo's like, they were mid argument and she was pissed, and then she said, I got us reservations at Enzo's.

And three turnaround. Three, two, one. 100. Let's go. Oh, my God. How are you gonna do that? Like, Enzo is the spot. I need to.

I think it's. I think it's a nice restaurant in town, right? But I also think that it's probably super popular since nobody can leave. Like, imagine.

Imagine your Enzo's business is booming cuz nobody. You can't go to one town over anymore.

Oh, my God.

I remember back.

I remember back in Hurricane Sandy, I was living in the same neighborhood in Brooklyn, and all the restaurants were packed to the brims because we couldn't leave the neighborhood. We were trapped. There was no subway. You couldn't drive anywhere.

It's a fair point. It's definitely, definitely a fair point. Oh, my gosh. So let's talk about some things that we learned.

Well, first, before we get into the things we learned, we did see this giant wall in the Upside Down. And I guess one thing that kind of comes to mind is has it been there all the time? Did it just get there? Have they just never ran into it before?

I mean, it's interesting because we know, like, in other seasons they left the lab and went out from the Upside Down. But is the library. How. Where proximity to the library is the labor. And would they hit the wall before they got to the library?

Would the library be inside that wall as well? I, I, I guess I kind of don't know. And I'm wondering whether it's always been there.

I have a lot of questions about the wall. I think this all goes back to Lucas's point about the date.

Yeah.

Because if they've been on 30 something crawls and they never saw this wall.

Before.

And Elle cannot see beyond the wall. Seems like this is new. This is. This might be. This wasn't here before. And so. Or maybe they never went fully.

They never tried to leave town on the crawls before. I guess we just, like, don't really know how much. How much space they could cover on a single crawl.

You know, I mean, like, like how, how close to the town lines did they get? I don't know. It just. It seems like it. I think it might be something new. We also don't know when the last crawl was. So it's been.

So Robin's done 500 broadcasts, so we can assume she does one a day. So it's been 500 days and they've done 30 crawling crawls. 30 plus crawls. So we don't know when the last time they went in there.

I think, I think we need some answers about. When, when they, like, how often they go. Obviously they only go when there's a burn, so how often is that happening? When was this wall.

I don't even know what to call it made because I almost said erected. But that would be like if you were using brick and mortar, like, like this thing is like made of some kind of fleshy material. But I wonder if.

If Lucas's point about the dates have to do with the wall going up. Also with the Demogorgord attack on the convoy. Something is happening in the Upside down, and I don't think we've seen. We know exactly what.

What that is yet, because it just hasn't been revealed to us yet.

Yeah. And I mean, I'd be lying if when they hit. When.

When they started showing the wall, I didn't, like, immediately hear Tormund's voice, like, who's the wildling now? You know what I mean? Like. Like, I swear, I mean, like, it was giving. Like, wait a second. There's a wall in this story now, too.

And there's a Vecna who's, like, the Night King and, like, he's abducting. What the fuck is happening? Anyway, I. I went to Game of Thrones mind.

I had to reel myself back because my mind automatically defaults to Game of Thrones. I was like, wait, this is not the story. So I do think, like, I'm. I mean, do we want to talk about what we think the wall is? Do you have.

Do you have an idea of what the wall is? Because I kind of think I.

At this point in these two episodes, I don't have anything. I don't think we have enough information to speculate yet.

Okay. All right, so we'll talk about it. We'll see as we get down. I have some ideas I want to talk about as we get further. But, yeah, I think it's.

It's going to be interesting that there's a wall and upside down. I think what we've learned. Is that Vecna uses the hive mind as an extension of himself. So it's interesting to learn that he can now see like, that.

With Will's visions, he can see Vecna's perspective. I think that's new information. We've never had that before, that he's able to see the perspective of Vecna.

And let's be fair, most of the season with Vecna, Will was not in Hawkins. So that's interesting that they're introducing now that he's closer, that he's able to do that. I thought that was an interesting takeaway.

I also think that. There'S. They. I don't understand why the military is still doing this. The doctors have done this. The lab technicians have done this.

They're still doing burns to push, push back. They've been burning this thing for I don't know how long. And maybe they're like.

It looks like these burns are actually just to get supplies through to go somewhere, it looks like, because these are like supply trucks, but they're still doing fucking burns. What do you. What are you. What are your thoughts about these burns?

Yeah, it seems like the burns are just to open up the gates, which seem to Heal. Which is just. I don't know, like, I don't really understand the.

I guess the purpose of the gates is so that the Upside down can move freely into our world, but not necessarily the other way around. But it seems like they need to go. The military at the very least is surveilling the Upside down on semi regular basis.

And so that's what the burns are about. They're trying. They're. They're. Burning that like the membrane between Hawkins and the Upside Down. I also think that it's great that like it's.

They can just go into the Upside down for whatever reason. Right. They don't have to. Do the whole like, upside down becomes right side up thing. It's just like they are now apparently the same.

You can just walk into the Upside down if you have an open portal. Yeah, I know.

Their new sling. He's flipped. Yeah, I love that. Anyway. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that. I think we need to know more about what the military is doing, not just in Hawkins, but. But in the Upside down in general.

Yeah. And I think a good clue to that is going to be what else we've learned is that we have a new antagonist or who's been presented as an antagonist.

Dr. K. She's tracking 11 with real military precision, bringing some of those people that we saw in season four. And so there is a government agenda. We're aware of that. So we learned that the government is obviously occupying.

Creating sledding skateboarding lanes for the youth in the community accidentally. And also that they are in search of Elle and in search of answers around what happened here with this. With this paranormal activity. I think also.

We learned that Will's connection was never fully severed and that proximity seems to have strengthened the signal. And this is where we learn about Robbins, like, oh, wait, that means that you're like a receptor. And I think like this is information that is.

It's fascinating to find out this late in the journey if you're like the rest of the party. Like, it would have been nice to know this earlier because I think Will has. Will.

They know that he messes with Will, but I don't think they really understand that. That the connection to the hive mind hasn't been severed quite that way. I found that fascinating.

I mean, we kind of assumed that already as an audience, but I think it's good confirmation coming from Will. But it's fascinating that he hasn't shared that with the rest of the group.

It seems like his mom was unaware of that fact when she's Saying it to him.

Yeah, I mean, I think Robin makes a good point that he hasn't been close enough to the hive mind. So maybe, like, since. Since they severed the connection.

The only time that Will has been close to the hive mind was in season three, back at his house, when the mind flayer. The flesh mind flayer, came for El. Right. He was there for that. And he did warn them that the hive knew where the flayed knew where they were. Right.

So we knew that the connection was still. Still existed then. But this feels really new. And so it's more than just the proximity. Something has changed.

Because before, when they were at the mall, he was right up against the hive mind. I mean, all the flayed were creating this gooey monster, right? Billy was right there. And. Unless Will just didn't tell us.

He wasn't able to see through that perspective then. So I think something has changed. It could be that the hive is becoming more powerful because Vecna is becoming more powerful.

Like, we don't really know what Vecna has been doing these last. 16 months or whatever it is. So I think they will need to reveal what has changed for Will because something has changed. This isn't. This is.

And, like, the. You know, a lot has changed, right? The upside down is no longer upside down. Now it's.

It's.

It's right side up, just like Hawkins. You can walk into it, right? There's, like, a bunch of things that have changed. So. The. Veil between worlds is very thin.

It's so thin that Demogorgons can come and go as they please. Right? So I think there's, like, a bunch of things that are kind of showing us that, like, something has changed pretty significantly.

That may have just been that all these gates opened, that Vecna was able to complete his season four plan. And. And all of this maybe would have happened to Will because that was happening now. Now that the.

The veil between the two worlds is so thin, maybe Will's connection to the hive mind is more intent, but also I'm a little suspicious. Like, we've seen the hive mind work against us before. So I'm a little bit like, yeah, 100. Will, Will, you in danger. Like what? Like this does it.

This feels like it could. It's like, it's not just that he's a receptor. This could go both ways. So we'll have to see how it unfolds.

Yeah, I think we'll have to see how it unfolds. And I also think that guy. I. Yeah, I'm kind of like, thinking about. As you started talking, you triggered some thoughts in my mind about.

Why wasn't he hurt when, for example, Billy got hurt when they were at the mall or when they brought down some of these other things. So it's very clear that something changed when the gates opened.

Like, to me, from what you're saying, that that changing of the dynamic probably happened with Vecna accomplishing the four deaths, that he wanted to open those portals in the previous season because it's very. He's responding to the. The hive mind and also to just upside down and those powers, like, very differently this season.

So, yeah, I think it's something to keep an eye on. There's a purpose to the Demogorgons in a way that we haven't quite seen this before. Or maybe it's always.

I mean, they do show that when Will was taken, they had a purpose and a mission as well. So maybe they've always had a purpose and we saw them as random.

No, but, like. So I. Sorry to interrupt you, but that's. I think you're on to something. I. I just wanted to go back to the. Season one.

When that Demogorgon crashes into the buyer's house for no purpose other than. Like, they wanted it to come and somebody was bleeding. So, like, they don't always have a mission. Right. But it seems like in this season, when they.

When a Demogorgon is out and about, it has something to do. Like.

Right.

Maybe they have marching orders now. And before, it was more random.

But, like, I don't think we were totally wrong that they were acting somewhat randomly in season one and two, because they kind of were like. Yeah, except for when they came for Ellen in season one at the school. There was the one that shows up at the house.

What purpose would it go to the buyer's house? You know, Will wasn't there.

There was no purpose to being there other than they lured it there by using blood, by spilling blood, so on terrain that it had already been to. And so I think there was a little bit of randomness to the way they behaved before. But they do seem to have very clear marching orders now. Or maybe.

Or maybe Vecna has better control over them now.

Vecna may have better control over them as well. I definitely think that that's a very big possibility.

But my question is, in the time when they put out the blood to lure the Demogorgon, we still haven't gotten Will yet, Right? That that's correct is they haven't found Will yet. So it's before.

Could it have been that he was still in search of Will before he got fireballed by Will inside the Upside down? Because it's the 12th, right? Isn't it the 12th when he actually gets them? So that's when they actually go and get.

So, so, yes, but, but I don't think there's that much time because in season one. Eleven says to Will, hold on, your mom is coming. He's singing, should I stay or should I go?

And then during that vision, the Demogorgon is outside of the castle Byers in the Upside down while El is in the Void, Right. And that is when Hopper and Joyce leave to go find him.

And then Nancy and Jonathan wait a half hour, an hour, and, and they're also delayed, right, because they have to go to the police station and steal all of their stuff that got confiscated earlier in the day. So they have to set up all the traps. So this is several hours later. So I don't think that, like. I don't.

I think that Demogorgon got Will almost immediately after Elle saw him in in the Void.

Yeah, I think so too.

I, I, I, I think so too, because I think the thing, the thing that I, I was really concerned about was whether or not the Demogorgon had time to still be searching for Will. And I don't think from what, what we're talking about, I don't think so.

I just don't think so. Because even if. Even if it's just took an hour to go from the police station. Yeah, that definitely.

Do we know how time works in there, though? Like, that's the thing I don't really understand enough about.

Do we know that time works exactly the same in the Void and in Dimension X and in the Upside down as it does because it's frozen in the Upside Down? Do we know that time works exactly the same in our world until they.

Until they tell us otherwise? I would assume so. And, and it does appear to now, at least, right. They can hear Hopper in real time.

That's fair.

In the Upside down and, and in season four, they could hear the, the teenagers who were stuck in the Upside Down. Well, they could hear Dustin in real time.

Yeah.

Right. So I think it is, I don't know.

I, I think my, the way I'm reading this is Elle appears to Will, tells him to stay put, Donoghue arrives, Will shoots it in the face, which again, Chef's Kiss. More of that. More of that.

Yes. Beautiful.

Then runs from it, gets caught, gets Bought to Vecna and maybe four or five hours later, Hopper and Joyce show up. Because it's got to be a few hours because remember, Hopper and Joyce get to stuck in the lab. By Brenner, keeps him in the lab for a while.

So I think it's a matter of hours. I don't think Vna had Will very long. I'm. But I am curious about when he says, at long last, we can begin, what does he mean? Is he talking about the.

The six days that. That Will has not been in his grasp? Is he talking about, did he have his eye on Will longer than that was?

Was Vecna able to see into the regular world until before L opened the gate? Like, we still have a lot of questions to answer, so I think hopefully we will get the answers to that.

And if we don't get the actual articulated answer, I think we'll have at least logic that will help us make those connections. I.

My guess is that all of our little nits and picks and questions are not going to get answered, but we will have the framework that will help us answer some of those questions, even if we don't have definitive answers.

I agree. And I don't think we.

You know, there'll be a million theories, there'll be a million things that people come up with just like we've seen this so many times.

I mean, look no further than Game of Thrones, right, where we hope that obviously what I think they're doing a better job to this point of, is keeping the main story on the tracks, which is great in a way, in a pace that feels like, okay, this makes sense. Let's see how they end this in the last four episodes. But I think ultimately what is going to matter is were they able to do that?

Were they able to get us to the things that matter to tell this story in its totality? The side theories will be fun. We'll come up with different things.

But I definitely agree with you that I think there's some things that just won't get answered, but the main thing should get answered. Why Will? We kind of. We'll talk a little bit about that in our next episode. What is Vecna's ultimate plan? Was that plan stopped? Did you know why? What.

Where was L? Like, L's like, part in this plan or being able to stop it?

I think one of the things that we learned that we didn't touch on that's really fascinating is it seems like with L's inability to get through that wall that Vecna maybe possibly creating a space that Elle can't penetrate. So I think that that's a fascinating thing to think about. Right. So I don't know.

Hopefully we get the main beats of the story is what we're looking for. And I think like we're. So far, so good. So far so good. I think we'll see.

I think, I think so far I'm feeling really good about where, where we are today with, with the story and where it's come from. So I feel, I feel excited about it.

Me too.

I'm sad that it's the final season, but I'm glad we finally have it and to be back in Hawkins and to get some answers to some of these questions we've been asking for years.

So I'm extremely pleased with these first four episodes and I'm very angry that I have to wait several weeks so they can ruin my Christmas by probably killing my favorite characters.

Oh, it's tough. It's tough.

Listen, we stayed up till two in the morning watching these episodes the day before Thanksgiving knowing that we all had to cook, travel, do whatever and there was no stopping us. We refused to be stopped.

Very poor life decisions. Life choices were made. But I have no regrets. No regrets.

Zero, zero regrets. All right, so I guess the last thing we'll close with, I know we're running a little long is just themes.

What themes jumped out to you if there were, if there were some themes that you wanted to talk about or touch on before we close?

I mean, I think the main thing we've talked about a bit already, which is just this like parent. Child dynamic that's playing out with Joyce and Hopper and Will and Elle respectively. It's very big in the first few episodes.

And I think it's interesting because a lot of it is about faith and having faith and trust in each other. And the. To me it's so appropriate because they're. Ellen, Will are older teens now.

You know, they are at that age where your parents have to let go of your grip and start to their grip and let. And start to trust your judgment a little bit more.

And so I think it's, it's so important in a story like that to remind us to ground us in the fact that this is a coming of age story at the end of the day.

Yes, it has monsters, yes, there are people of powers, yes, there are big world altering things, but this is a coming of age story about young people coming into themselves, whatever themselves may be.

And so I think that the, the parental dynamic between Hopper and El and Joyce and Will and Joyce and Jonathan to some respect, because I think Jonathan could actually use a little bit more mothering than he gets. But I think that's really an important theme to deal with and to grapple with early in the season. Because we're going to have losses here.

We don't know who's going to be lost. But what we don't want is for this dynamic where there's mistrust between the adults and the kids.

We don't want the kids to feel like their parents, don't trust them, don't believe in them, don't think that they can do all the things that they say they can do.

And also a thing that I think Joyce and Hopper have to kind of accept from all the kids is that they actually have more experience in this than they do. You know, they've been. They've been. While Joyce and Hopper have been dealing with the human elements of this story for a really long time.

The kids have been dealing with the supernatural elements since the beginning. No one knows more about the Upside down than Will. Period. End of sentence.

And the fact that no one really acknowledges that that Will is not seen as an example expert is frustrating. So I'm glad that he's coming into his own. I'm glad that El is holding her ground, too.

Although I was transported back to season two when l was like, I don't understand why I can't go like, here we go again. Here we go. In a moment she's gonna be like, you are just like Papa.

Papa. Exactly. No, she was. It was. It was. It's so crazy to see their dynamic going back and forth.

And I really love that Joyce was like, why are you being so hard on her? I really love that she kissed. See that in Hopper.

I wish that she was able to see that sometimes when she's communicating with Jonathan or even when she's pulling Will back. But she could definitely see in Hopper, it's always easy to see some in somebody else. I. I actually love this dynamic.

I actually love it because you and I even talked about by this point, in a lot of YA and other kind of formats, the parents have long been. Been discarded.

The parents are dead. They not dealing with parents.

Yeah, they're not dealing with them. And I. And I really like it because as a. As a parent, what, you know, I think.

I think about when I was watching these things was, was that there's a moment that you have where you have all these great ideas and you've been the person that's been protecting. And your ideas have been like the North Star for your child, and this is what you should do.

And then they come with their own idea, and their idea is actually better or their. Their plan is actually better. And the. The. The moment of, like. I don't know how to say, there's a. There's like an idea of, like.

I'm super proud of that, and I'm also humbled by it. And I'm also like. And there's also like a. Not a sadness. It's a hard word to put into the.

The Brazilians would have the word saudaji, because that's what I think actually it feels, but it's a.

A.

It's like a longing and a sadness and a happiness and a. All in one where you just feel like this. Like, oh, my gosh, I'm watching this person grow.

And I'm also mourning the loss of this little person that I had to shepherd through life. And it's. It's a beautiful thing. It really is beautiful. And I. And I.

And I see that happening as we've seen a lot in this show Mirrored and Will's journey and Elle's journey right now, where she's leading Hopper through the Upside Down. And even when he's like, what are we going to do in this situation?

She's kind of like, we're going to go into this guy's mind and I'm going to get the answers and we're going to figure this out. And she's like, kind of, you know, she calls him out like she, like.

Hopper's trying to catch up when they first meet back up, which is funny as hell, which Carrie.

But she says it's not. I'm not moving off of emotion. I'm moving off of instinct.

Instinct.

And that's so important because I think from the parent point of view, of course, that moment where.

Where your kid is, like, becoming the person that you've tried you want them to become is both victorious, but there's also, like, a certain level of, like, loss in that moment. But as a kid, such a big.

Such a big moment of becoming an adult is earning the trust and respect of your parents and getting them to see you as a fully formed person and not just an extension of them. And so when Elle said instinct, I felt that I was like, yes. Like, we need to.

We, the audience and Hopper have to trust her, even if she's not always right. Her and Will are literally the experts here. There's no one who has more information Than them. Not Nancy, not Joyce, not Hopper.

No one has more information than them. Except for maybe Vecna himself.

Yeah. Hopper, Take several seats. Until you can piggyback from a freezer inside of a pizza kitchen into someone else's mind. Take several seats. Okay.

That's it. No. Oh, man.

So I. I just thought that was, like, a beautiful early theme. I mean, this. These. These first few episodes were. They did a much better job than I expected of kind of checking in on all the relationships.

So I feel really good. Even. In chapters one and two about where all the relationships fall, for the most part, there's still.

I have some questions about some of them, but I thought the parental dynamic was particularly interesting in these first two.

Totally agree. Totally agree. And we're going to get into some predictions. We have some predictions. We can talk about it next episode, but we're gonna.

I really want to talk about when we get back into the next episode. When we talk about three or four. I think it's more pertinent. There is. What does Vecna want from Will? We know how it started.

We talked a little bit about it in this episode. What does he want from Will? I think that's a big. It's a big question I think we'll talk about in the next episode, but. All right.

Well, we are so grateful that you guys are here with us listening to these episodes about stranger Things. We have appreciated all the discourse going back and forth and talking online, the text messages and the inbox messages. It's been great.

Please keep them coming and hit us up on kinfolklore pod on Instagram, kinfolklorepod on X. Also, you can hit us up on kinfolklore pod on X, Facebook and all those@nkinfolkloremail.com and you can hit us up on threads.

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Bye, everyone. Ra.