Ever thought of opening your own publishing company?

This week Emily interviews Joe Biel, founder and manager of Microcosm Publishing, who decided to do just that starting as a teenager. With 23 years of experience publishing books and zines, hustling at conferences and book fairs, and learning book business the hard way, he's now sharing his knowledge for all budding book-lovers ready to take a professional leap. We discuss his new book, A People's Guide to Publishing, and all its advice on niche selection and editorial strategy, sales and distribution, and staying true to your audience and ideals. Plus we discuss the publicity gold that is Henry and Glenn forever. Visit our site for a complete breakdown of the episode so you can jump-in wherever you are the most interested.

To enter our giveaway, now through February 28, 2019, visit:

https://hybridpubscout.com/giveaways/peoples-guide-publishing-giveaway/

Facebook @hybridpubscout

Buy a copy by visiting Microcosm's shop at:

2752 N Williams Ave

Portland, OR 97227

Or online at microcosm.pub

Hey everybody, Emily here, just wanted to let you

know that we're running a giveaway for a people's guide to

publishing by the person we are about to interview on the show,

Mr. Joe Biel of microcosm publishing in Portland, Oregon.

It's a great book I've read. The whole thing totally amped me up.

Got me inspired. If you're ever interested in how publishing

works on a nuts and bolts basis, but you also don't like being

bored, then get in on this giveaway. You'll see it on our

Facebook page at hybrid pub scout. You will also see it on

our website, and I will bug you about it wherever I can find

you. I see you've got some tabs marked there. Those are all the

factual objections you found. No, I just want to start my

company someday. So I'm taking a lot of notes. A lot of what I'm

going to ask about are business related things. It's cool. So

the whole thing with our podcast is trying to listen to you did.

Which ones do you listen to? I listened to about 10 different

ones. I did not know that there was such an interest in erotica

and the I mean, I learned a lot about

and it's not like something that. I mean, I've never, for

fun, read a book like that, not because I'm like, Oh my God, but

more of this because I'm like, I don't, yeah, I just, I can't

read fiction. It's like a brain thing at all, like fiction of

any kind. I've tried many times I read, I mean, I read fantasy

books when I was like 12. But even then, it was just kind of,

you know, it's kind of like watching television. Oh yeah.

Just like, meh. You feel like there's no like purpose to it

for you. Or, yeah, I get nothing out of it. I just have to, like,

suppress the whole time that I'm like, this is all lies. You.

Foreign Welcome to the hybrid pub Scout podcast with me. Emily

einerlander and Corinne is snowed in in her brand new house

today, so she has asked me to ask some questions on her

behalf, and I will indicate which ones those are. And we're

very happy, or technically, I am very happy today to

have Joe Biel of microcosm publishing on today. And would

you like to introduce yourself? Sure, sure. So I'm the founder

and the CEO of microcosm publishing. We're a small press

in the global sense, but a, you know, in the sense of Portland.

We're one of the larger we were, the oldest press in Portland.

But then

a certain Image Comics moved here.

Well, I mean, in Portland, you've been here longer. So

that's true. That is very true. And, you know, and so it's an

interesting thing too. I we're a year older than tin house, so

I've really held on to that

notion, the word like the oldest commercial book publisher, until

a few years ago, and now we're just one of does tin house

participate in that banter with you. They do. They're not nearly

as competitive. It's like they don't have a dog in the fight.

But I will tell you, when we joined the pub West

organization, they were very particular when we made that

kind of assertion. Oh yeah, because that would make a lot of

sense if you're using that as a publicity angle. Because

there's, like, there's companies here, like graphic arts that are

older than we are, but they're, you know, they're owned by

Ingram, so they're not actually independent presses, right?

They're not primarily producing book products, you know, or

similarly, like pomegranate, you know, is here now, also recent

import. They, you know, but they, you know, they produce

things like puzzles and things, yeah, they make books and yeah,

but it is. It's just a different you know. So then you have to

just put like, more and more qualifiers in there, all right,

well, and to that point, can you tell us a little about your

origin story? I know that you used to make zines, and you

continue to make zines, so

could you please talk about all of the things that you have been

publishing? And Corinne wanted to know, if you think zine

culture is still as vibrant as it used

to be. Yeah, that is, it's okay. So

I was born in Cleveland, and so, you know, and it's like, and as,

like, an important piece of set dressing, or origin story, or

what have you. It's like in the 70s, when I was growing up in

Cleveland, it was like, you know, we were just gay. The city

was just going through recession, or, I'm sorry, like

bankruptcy more than recession, you know. And you know. And it

was a weird time, because it was like, just a.

Really strong, you know, sort of similar to how the US is now

broadly, where you had really strong, stratified ideas about,

like, conservatism, and, you know, the idea that the city

should own the public utilities and that didn't, you know, they

had to sell them off to pay off the bankruptcy. And, you know,

and so it's just like, I saw massive unemployment when I was

a child. So it's like, you know, and it is that weird thing to

like, grow up during, you know, sort of this time where you

think the world is gonna, like, explode into nuclear winter and

like, nobody has a job, and like, the sky alternates between

orange and gray, and, you know, into it's kind of like this

weird thing where you kind of feel like you can do whatever

you want, because nothing means anything. You know, and that and

like, maybe that's not, I mean, obviously that's not what

everybody would take from it, but that's what I took from it,

you know, I was really like, Okay, this is,

you know, I should do what is meaningful to me, you know. And

so when I was fairly young, I, you know, I had a bad drinking

problem, and I have autism, but I didn't know it yet then, you

know, and so they had a not, you know, it's just there wasn't,

like, support structures. And, you know, obviously, as you can

see, like, like in the US today, right? There was a lack of

resources. There was a lack, you know, the budgets would just

would just get cut to the bone, and you'd sort of lose things

that were vital for just like a support system in society,

right? And so, but when I was young, you know, I met Harvey

Pekar, if you know who that is. He was the person that made

comic books not be about superheroes, right? And and

that, you know, things like that. And then learning that,

like Superman had been invented in Cleveland, like the character

had been written in, like, self published zines, you know, in

1929 like that was really fascinating to Young Joe. And I

really got into that. And, you know, and it's funny too,

because I didn't, I went to the largest high school in the state

of Ohio, you know, and I did not, I definitely struggled

majorly, and I should not have graduated, but they wanted to

get rid of me, you know, yes. And I think many people at that

time kind of know that sort of story, right, that it was like I

was enough trouble that they were like, Okay, we'll graduate.

Push it through, yeah, and so all that stuff. You know, it was

kind of like I didn't and I was not assigned to read a single

book the entire time I was in high school, which I feel like

is just so wild and weird. Was that just you, or was that

everyone i Well, I'm told that after I graduated, they read

Frankenstein, but, like, I'm assuming that, like, what would

you say that's like, a seventh or eighth grade reading level? I

mean, okay, we don't need to judge, but that was like, the

seniors read it, yeah, you know, and, and, and so things like

that, where it was just like, I don't know, I guess it was. So

it was like, subcultural things that I found that made me

interested in reading. So it's like, when I was see, it was

like 1991

there started to be, like, local punk rock shows that people

would put on, and that, I don't know how I knew that would be

interesting, but, you know, I guess it was the, it was like,

put on by the cool kids, like, and, you know, but it had like,

that element of danger, right? And there was definitely, like

weird things, like I went to and so, like, Cleveland is on the

beach, but the beaches are all, like, really toxic and gross and

weird. And so these older kids that I'm still a little bit in

touch with at one point, they like rented out this, like

concrete bunker beach, and it like had the worst acoustics.

Oh, they played the shows in there. No, no, no, you know. And

it was just like, this thing where it's like, open air, but

concrete, you know. So it just sounded awful and, you know. But

to me, that was, like, so magical and transformative that,

you know, doing that and then being like, okay, it's like, you

know? And that was sort of how I learned, like, social mores and,

like, ethics and right, because it's like, I wasn't really

parented either. Like it was kind of like school where they

were just like, okay, like, do you know, go, just don't be

trouble for us. You are too much trouble for us. Turn that down,

you know. Yeah. And so. And my dad was just, like, severely

disabled. He had multiple strokes, and I was really young,

so it was just kind of another thing where I was just like,

nothing means anything, right, right? And, and there was very

little hope in that world. So by like, 1996 like, kids my age

had, like, founded a punk club that they, like, rented and

like, and I thought that was amazing. So I got involved in

that, and I would put on shows there, and then, you know, and I

would hang out with them and get drunk every night, and that was

really cool. And then that was sort of, and I don't remember

this, per se, but I ran into one of the guys from that era in LA

fairly a few years ago. Yeah.

And in Cleveland, you say guys, even if it's like, nine women.

Oh yeah, I'm from California, so we do the same thing. So, and,

like, we talked about this era and, and, you know, the person

was just like, you were drunkenly babbling about how you

were going to, like, start this thing, and then you did it, you

know, and I have no recollection of this whatsoever, but

apparently that was like my teenage self had been like

talking about that even before I was doing it. So when you say

starting this thing, I mean, was it similar? No, not similar at

all. So it initially, I would, I would steal photocopies, and I

would make zines, and I would, like, set up milk crates, like

on the bar of the punk club, and then I would sell records and

stuff too. And then I began, like, I and then that was kind

of how I figured out how to write, okay, I think, well, for

the young listeners, could you please, uh,

elucidate what a zine is a little bit Sure. So a zine is

like a book, but it is like more like a love letter than a book.

And there is, you know, like you would take a word origin to

think it has more to do with a magazine, but that would be

wrong. It has much more to do with a book than a magazine, but

it's sort of about, it's like a subcultural passion project, you

know, where you're like, and it's really across the board

where, like, there's libertarian zines, there's zines about how,

like, weird, experimental, awesome shoes. There's zines

about Star Trek. There's zines about anything. Like, in the

original, zines were about wrestling and science fiction,

you know, or, if you really want to go back there, like, about,

you know, the, like, American Revolution, you know, and so

those kind of things, you know. And so the ones that I had

access to were, like, sort of derivative of the 70s zines. So

they were about music primarily, and then, but I didn't, I don't

know, you know. And so I felt like I needed to write about

music at first, but I didn't really care about that, you

know, right? Like, I liked sort of the ethos, and I like the

feel, and I like the camaraderie, and I liked hanging

out with all the people, and I liked all the like positive

endorphins in my brain, right? But, and there's definitely like

music from that era that I still listen to, but I don't listen

to, like new music, you know, like it's not the music that I

liked, it's like that belonging, you know, right? And so for I

don't know, and you know. And so, like bearing all of this in

mind that I had never read a book in high school, it seems

completely absurd that I would think that I would then start a

publishing company. Well, do you think that in some way, because

you didn't read books in high school, that you had the freedom

to create something different than than what one would think

of as a traditional publishing company? Yeah. So you know how

like, well, I don't know. Maybe I should only speak for myself

here. So when I was a teenager, I was horribly pompous because I

was a teenager, yeah. And so my attitude was really like, I know

about really cool things, and other people don't know about

them. So thus it is my duty to, like, spend my life making, you

know, this spread the good word, yeah. And I really thought of

it, like, by and large, is like, these are resources that would

have benefited me when I was younger to know about. So that's

what I should put my energy behind. And that was kind of the

other reason that music wasn't that interesting to me. Do you

find that that's still kind of a root purpose and driving force

in like, microcosms, editorial strategy, or 100% Yeah, that's

like, that is the conversation. Yeah, you know, it's like, every

time we have a submission, that's like, even the people

that like, weren't yet born when the microcosm was starting.

That's how they approach it, too, right, right? So that's,

that is like, something I'm very proud of well, and I am curious.

So I have read your new book, people's guide to publishing,

and you go a lot into how important it is to have your

niche and your mission as a guiding force and the books that

you acquire. And I'm interested in whether you just find these

books, whether the people who write them write them,

especially for microcosm, or just how they get developed in

such a specific way to fit

your mission statement and your niche, right? So it's threefold.

Most of our authors are our fans and our readers first, if that

makes sense, you know. So there are cases where somebody has

been pitching something around for a while, and then they pitch

it to us, and then it works. It does fit. But you know, by and

large, those you know, anytime somebody is pitching to every

publishing company, it's like nobody is going to take it. You

know, it's sort of, my you.

A blanket response to that, to blanket pitching, but the, you

know, it's, it's, it's like, it's in thirds, I would say, you

know, so we'll work with

an author sometimes where, if somebody has a pitch that's

close, we'll sort of workshop it with them to be like, this is

something we would be interested in. But this doesn't really

quite work as it sits right, you know, especially if it's like

somebody that I am a fan of their work and I respect them,

you know, that's one thing, but it's you just can't always get

there, you know. And a lot of times it's like when you sort of

redirect somebody, they will just use that as an opportunity

to argue with you about why you are wrong and why you should

accept it right and you know. And for us, it like it costs us

five figures to publish a book, you know, it's a lot of money

and resources, you know, yeah, so that's the other thing where

you're just like, you don't like, we know our craft, you

know? And that,

so that part of it,

you know, sometimes you do get a pitch where somebody did put in

the time and they did the research and they figured out

who we are and what we care about, and they is, that's the

driver for them. That's the motivator, you know. And a lot

of times, you know, I guess that's the other advantage of

being, you know, we're in our 24th year. You get people that

come in and they're like, I've been reading your books for

years, and that's how I always thought about books, too. Here's

my pitch. I'm sure you're not interested, you know, like,

those are always the perfect pitches, you know, that's very

coy, and I think they mean it, you know, I think it's a sincere

like but I'm sure you'd never be interested, but it's because

that's sort of the kind of underdog that we appeal to, and

probably an author that you would want to work with with a

little bit of humility as well. Yeah, and it's whenever somebody

comes in and they're like, I hired my friend to design a book

cover and it's all edited and ready to go, you just have to

hit the start button. Those treat you like a printer, yeah?

I mean, I joke that they treat us like an ATM with

distribution, right? Yeah? And because, and those books never

work anyway, right? And they aren't done is together, and the

cover isn't right, and the title development is not right, you

know. And so

we get a lot, you know, and sometimes we will if we've

worked with an author before. And so we do have editorial

meetings like a normal, like traditional, sort of Publisher,

right? And in those meetings, people will sort of workshop and

brainstorm ideas for things that would work well, you know? So

it's like sales talks to, you know, people in other

departments, and they're really good at being like, yeah, this

would really be a lot of fun, and would go over really well.

And then we will, then if we worked with an author in the

past, we will say, Would you be interested in writing this book?

Right? Right? And, or if, like, we're acquainted with somebody,

we'll sort of do the same thing, you know, and that. So we get a

lot of books that way. So that's probably about a third, and then

it is probably a third where the person does do the time to pitch

something that works. And then there's about a third where, you

know, we will sort of workshop or so, you know, yeah, like,

we'll make it work with a submission until it's

functional, right? I one thing that I thought was interesting

is you talked about how the idea that no one has ever done this

before is a really bad paradigm to use, and I would like you to

talk a little about why that is, and also your suggestion that

a concept maybe can be used in a smaller sense and then scaled

up, like from a zine to a book, if people are interested, sure,

sure. So we

and we were, you know, microcosm is primarily self distributed

through most of our history,

but we were many years ago, I think 16 or no, 17 years ago

now, wow. We were distributed by National Book network, who is,

like a very traditional company. They're in, I think Pennsylvania

or Maryland,

and they had even back then. You know, that was very much their

feedback was like, you know, because it's like, so when you

work with a distributor as a publisher, it's like, you're

basically using their sales team, and you're doing the

editorial and development and such and the acquisition,

and they're doing the like to market and the warehousing and

things like that. And so they're there. They have the perception

that publishers don't know the market, right? May or may not be

accurate. You know, it depends on the publisher. And so they

would come back, and that was their number one, like,

immediate piece of feedback. Because, like, never tell us

that your idea has never been done before, right? Like, you

want to tell us three similar successful books so we can.

Then show your book to our customers, and then they can

look at your book, and then look at the success they've had with

the books that you're referencing, and be like, Oh, I

get it. This is what this book is about. This is how well we

would do with that book, and this is how many we want to

order, you know. And so

the problem, the reason there's there's numerous reasons why

this has never been done before it doesn't work, you know,

mostly because it's just not true. You know, there's millions

of books in print. You know, the likelihood that you had an idea

that has never been done is virtually nil at this point. You

know, it just means you haven't gone out and done your homework,

you know? And, or it means there's a very good reason why

the book shouldn't exist, right, right? You know, we have many

books. We

had someone submit a book to us how to argue with people on the

internet where I'm just like, No, no one page, don't

and you know, and we you know, or just so many books about

things that nobody would perceive themselves as the

audience for right or even like perceive as a gift for someone

that they Know, even someone they don't like, you know.

And, and that's sort of the biggest trouble that you run

into is,

you know. And so my, like my, I think I used it in the people's

guide to publishing is, like, my constant joke is, like,

grandpa's war stories does not need to be a mass produced book,

right, right? Like everyone in your family will probably enjoy

it, and they've probably heard them all already, yeah, and so

it is, but it's like that thing where there's lots of

opportunity to get that elsewhere. There's lots of books

in print like that. You know, in like 1890 people would have

probably eaten up books about, like the Civil War. But

nowadays, you're not exactly gonna go out and be like, I

wonder, you know, who, if some random guy's Grandpa is

like, what? What experience there was like in World War Two,

you know? And so there's a bit of that and, you know, and so

it's you really want to come in when you're approaching a

publisher and say, This is why I feel like you're a good fit, and

you don't want that to be dishonest, you know? Because

that's sort of the other thing that we get a lot of, is people

will pitch fiction as nonfiction to us, or to make it fit within

the guidelines. Oh, they'll just kind of, like, try to shove that

square peg into the round hole, yeah. And then, you know, and

so,

and then when you, you know, by the time it's like, to the

editors, who are not stupid, you know, they will come back and be

like, how did you know what this person was thinking in this

moment in time for this person that is now deceased, right?

Because that's not something you could possibly have known, no,

no. And then the person will come back and be like, Oh, well,

I think it's more interesting told this way. Or, you know, I

think people would rather read this version than, you know,

right, an accurate account, I know. And then you just kind of

have to scratch your head and wonder, like, why would you do

that at that point. It's historical fan fiction,

yeah, and we get that kind of thing a lot, yeah. Well, I think

this might be the right time to talk about Henry and Glenn,

right, right. Okay, this is something Corinne wanted to hear

about was both the

writing production, Henry and Glenn forever and the the

subjects, reactions to it. So I had an old, an old friend,

actually,

whose name was Dylan Williams, and he sadly passed away some

years ago, but he had introduced me, and he was a publisher. He

had a comic company called spark plug, okay, that he published

under for many years. He started before we did and, and he

introduced me at one point to Tom Neely, who had created Henry

and Glenn forever with, I think, five of his friends, four of his

friends and, and

I don't know why Dylan didn't do it because it was, I mean, it's

a pretty amazingly weird book, similar to what Dylan published.

Did they just think he thought you'd have a better time selling

it, or anything you could bring to it that he couldn't. I think

the authors wanted us for whatever reason, you know, and

so and you know.

And this is one of those moments where I am not a very good

publisher, because

the author pitched it to me, and I said, I don't really think

anyone knows, like understands it, because the book conceives

this idea that Henry Rollins and Glenn Danzig are.

Like even greater, cartoonish amalgamations of themselves,

wow, and, and because, you know, the joke is that they're both so

exaggerated that their their public personalities are just

too big for life. You know that there's no way that any real

person is like that. And, you know, and this has become such

lore that you get a lot of stories, and, you know, that

was, that was even before, you know, they wrote this book in

2004 so it's like before the time of, you know, sort of

internet click bait news stories about these guys. And then

everybody knows how they are, because they've seen everything

that they reacted to. But there were rumors, you know, sort of

at that time, about all kinds of, just like funny stories of

people, like meeting them, and just like how the, you know, the

actual guys were quite boring and weird. And, you know, in

various, like, stories about Henry lifting weights and that

being like, a euphemism, and things like that and so and, you

know, and it was like, at that point you didn't know what was

true or not. And so the book, like, made it go a step further

to put them in a relationship together. And then that hall of

notes were their next door neighbors, who were DND playing

Satanists. But like, actually, you know, because that was the

other part of the 80s, was that DNA was actually like, Yeah, and

so, and then that was an actual rumor about Hall and Oates, was

that they were Satanists. I don't know if you I did not know

that. That's really funny to me. And and those guys have a

tremendous sense of humor, awesome guys. So how did they

react to it? They said, The only thing that isn't true about this

book is that we don't live next door to Henry and Glenn awesome.

Which, no, I was just like, How are you so good at this? And I

watched after that, I, you know, I had never been a tremendous

fan, because it was, you know, like, painfully not cool when I

was a kid to be into hollow notes, right? So I did. I like,

went back and I, like, watched the documentaries, and I was

like, Oh, these guys are actually, like, quite clever,

you know, I just never would have thought that, because it's

a little subtle, you know, right, right, right? And, and

so,

you know, it's a weird book. And I had, you know, and all of the

jokes are from the 80s, right, you know, and so, and this was

20 years later, so I was just like, nobody remembers who these

guys are, you know, they were sort of between acts at that

point, you know, I don't think this is a book. I think this is

like a bar joke, you know. Yeah, that's a good way to know. And,

and the and, Tom like, to his credit, he was like, Okay, well,

if you can't sell them, I'll just buy them all back from you.

There you go. And not for you can't refuse, yeah, and we sold

out within two weeks of that first printing, you know. And so

that was,

and then, like, I think we sold like, 60 some 1000 that first

year in the you know. And it was just really a wild, weird thing,

and I've never,

and it was like, that was about the time when, you know, these

you would sort of have blogs be like a major launching pad for

book sales. Oh, yeah, I remember. And that was pretty

unheard of, and, you know, so it was like we were so short

supplied, like we weren't even getting it into stores, because

it was just constantly selling out of printings, yeah, you

know. And so that was when it was a weird thing. And I didn't

really know that, like, Henry had, like, a short lived talk

show and that things had, like, sort of, you know, they had many

second, third, fourth, fifth, acts a piece, yeah, yeah. And

they were both really, like,

you know, fairly dynamic rebounders, you know, and, and

so that was kind of why it worked so well. And then we did

a sequel, and, you know, a number of sequels. And Corinne

wants to know if Glenn Danzig sour puss reaction to it helps

sell the book. Absolutely. So. So there's many, many amazing

things. So this is the other thing, when you are the

publisher of Henry England forever, is that people come up.

And now I have heard every story about, oh, real people you can

imagine, sure, but my favorite about to your question is that,

so there's two two pieces here. So we did find out through third

party channels that Glenn's manager has a list of interview

topics that you are not allowed to ask about.

And you can guess which book we were told ended up on that list,

awesome. And you can imagine that when you are showing said

list to say reporters who write articles that that does

tremendous things for book sales, I'm not allowed to ask

about this.

This, and I believe this is called the stray sand effect.

When you promote something that you don't want people to know

about, is that what happened with,

oh yeah. So it's like, hate listening, yes. And so that, you

know, we got so many reviews, and then it got to the point

where, like, they can't always legislate that. So it's like,

you know, when he's being interviewed by MTV, they're not

allowed to tell MTV you're not allowed to ask about the book,

you know. So they would, you know, because they could. And

then I think it was like a Rolling Stone article where they

said, You have been very critical of Henry and Glenn

forever, like, Do you not have a sense of humor?

And then Glenn went very, very far to be like,

who, and expanded on it tremendously and said, like, I

have a sense of humor. The problem is that the book is not

funny, and the authors are losers, and, you know, and it

was, and, you know, and it's like in Rolling Stone. So it's

not like, nobody's noticing. No, that's that's great. And then

decibel, which is like a metal magazine, the reporter, gave us

the like, unedited transcript of the entire interview, where

Glenn went on and on and on, and was, like, clearly very upset

about it.

And it, you know, and it's things like that, where I'm just

like, you don't know when to stop, you know, but it totally,

I mean, obviously, it tremendously helped sell the

book, because then it was, every time he was in the news, they

mentioned the book, right? Because it got him going, yeah.

And even if they weren't interviewing him, even if it was

just like an article about him doing something, about him doing

something else they'd be like, and this book, and that time he

did this other thing embarrassing, and the time that

he got, you know, punched out backstage, and the time that he

was photographed wearing his own band's t shirt while buying

kitty glitter, you know, and it was like, just, like, became

part of the rigmarole. And, you know, I mean, and you do at some

point, like, kind of feel bad that, like he doesn't

understand, like, how to mitigate this problem, right,

right, that he can't just laugh it off, yeah, and so. But then

at roller con, which is like the roller derby convention a few

years ago, I had a woman come up to me that said that she

her best friend is part of the management team for Danzig and

that,

and this is maybe the furthest stretch

she said that

he doesn't actually hate the book, but hating the book has

become part of the persona that he has to perform. And so he's

actually, like, pretty into it, but it doesn't work for him to

be somebody that, like, comes across as having a sense of

humor well, and it wouldn't be very fun for him to break

character. And that also serves the book it sounds like, which,

you know. And so I'm like, this seems a little bit of a stretch,

or a little on the nose, yeah, in a different way, right? And

so I, you know, and so that's the thing. But like, even that,

I was, you know, I had a few days where I was just like,

whoa, could

that be true? And I was like, it doesn't actually matter if it's

true or not. It's hilarious. Does attention like that feel a

little precarious when one of your books gets that much

publicity? Or do you worry that it could go in a bad direction

for you? Or no, just always good. We did ask, and then they

did. They also management was also, like, spreading the rumor

that they were going to, like, prosecute us out of existence,

right? So we were, so we began sending them letters pleading to

because, like, what would be better than that?

Strategy,

because it's, I mean, it's also, like, it had been through, like,

so many legal departments at so many companies, and every one of

them was like, This is a work of parody. It's like, completely

protected by fair use. Like, yeah, you can do this. And so,

you know, we were like, Bring it on. See

what happens, you know. And like, we have a very good like

person that does that for us, you know, we were just like,

whoa, wow, this will be so much fun.

Like, this would be, like, the biggest media we ever received,

you know, and, and so I don't know, I didn't really, I mean,

it definitely felt a little weird, because obviously, for

the few years after that, the submissions we got were a little

bit like, bad reproductions of that, oh, yeah, with different

celebrities, stuff like that, yeah. Well,

you have a Morrissey book as well, yeah. And that's a little

bit different. It's like, not an imitator or a spawn, you know

it's that was done like so that book is creates. The book is

defensive eating with Morrissey. It's part of a series with

comfort eating with Nick Cave. And we have some new ones about

the Ramones eating pizza and

ladies that lunch with Lydia lunch. And we have a few.

Uh, others, oh, and backyard barbecuing with Metallica will

also be joining it. And, you know, these are created by,

like, both, well, I guess you would, you could say infamous or

reputable, depending on the day, vegan chef who, like, does the

actual recipes. And so it's like, edible, you know, it's

practical. And then the woman that created the Goths eating

meme, which was a internet sensation that has been, like

oft, imitated and repeated by many other artists. So, like,

she was doing this before

Henry and Glenn even, like this was sort of her weird

project of, you know, like, similarly, like, destroying her

idols, right? Have any of them commented? Oh, yeah, yeah, they

Morrissey's manager was really into it, and, like, really,

really, really tried to get him on board. But Morrissey is,

well, exactly what he looks like, an incredible weirdo, and,

like, has no sense of humor. So I think that was really hard for

him to even get his brain around what we were doing and like, why

people would be interested in this. And it was like during the

death of Nick caves son. So he was, like, he was into it, but

it was just sort of an awkward time to for him to get behind

it, you know. And,

but, you know, they were both, I mean, but he, you know, but Nick

Cave has a sense of humor, and he's, like, a good guy from all

intents and purposes, bad timing, yeah, and, you know? And

so I think, like, when we do a new edition, I think we could

get, like, a more proper, like official sign on, oh, sure,

yeah, all right, well, let's move back to more business

topics

that's too fun not to ask about. And there's so many stories, oh

yeah, exactly like, maybe we shouldn't like, it's like, it'll

go on forever. Really restrain myself there.

All right,

so I was interested in some of the more unconventional sales

and funding methods that I've noticed. I noticed you have a

subscription program, you have a Patreon, I don't know if it's

still in we stopped doing Patreon, okay? And then we do a

different 1x or, well,

Kickstarter bought a company called drip that is the same.

It's like, actually an embedder version of Patreon, but now that

is being resold to a local company, actually. Oh So, great.

And then you, you use Kickstarters for a lot of your

books as well. Can you kind of talk about how that's worked for

you and why you decided to do it?

So the hardest part of

Kickstarter specifically, or sort of all the above, all of

the above, but maybe start with Kickstarter, sure, sure. So they

do all sort of tie in together. So the hardest thing about

publishing is getting the word out is like letting people know

that the book exists, what it is, who it's for, why they

should care any of it, you know. And, and I think that's sort of

where people really drop the ball, generally, and, and

honestly, you know, and this is the funny part, is like, and I

maybe it's just because, like, this is, like, our society has

such an awkward relationship with money that people really

come at it a lot.

And even, like, when we worked with,

you know, these giant companies, these these distribution

companies that we used to work with, they would have these

ideas that, like, Kickstarter was owned by Amazon.

Does that come from? They used to process payments through

Amazon for a brief period before they got, you know, a better

like services provider and but Kickstarter is an independent

company, you know, yeah, and, you know, because it's, it's

really easy money model for them, you know, they don't need

investment or anything else. They make money every day,

right? You know, by the extension of the services that

they provide and so,

but people were really, they had a weird and publishers

especially just had such a weird feeling about Kickstarter, where

they were like, I don't know, you know if it would like ruin

our reputation, or if right to gimmicky, or, I think just the

acknowledgement, they felt like it was fundraising, oh, like it

would seem like they didn't have the cash flow to do it

themselves, yeah? And, and, you know? And it's kind of one of

these things, you know, it's like, where I come from, who I

am, like, I have no qualms about that, you know. It's like, if

you know, because we think of it as just like, it's pre ordering

the book, yeah, you know, yeah. And then we, like, found out the

hard way, you know. And I think we did it initially.

Where

the so we were. I thought we were the first Kickstarter book

project in 2010 but we were like the 40th,

which, you know, I guess in the hind in the, you know, big

picture is, like pretty early on, but not double digit,

but they and it was, you know, it's just like, we had a book

that, like the print bill on it alone was like $14,000 and we

were just like, Okay, we'll need to figure out a better way to

work this out, because it's just not, you know, like we weren't

expecting it to be a huge selling book, right, right? Like

we figured a few 1000 copies was more or less what we were gonna

get out of it, but we wanted to do it. And then that was right

about the time that Kickstarter was, sort of, it was in beta

still, but, you know, and it just seemed like a good way to

do that, you know, right, build momentum and excitement and,

like, sort of bolster people that were, like, feeling like

they were part of our community and like, invested in what we do

and our well being, and, you know, and so we didn't want to

raise the whole thing, partly because we had no idea if that

would work or not. So we just raised, like, $5,000 on top,

right? Because you have to give the money back if you don't

raise that much money. So you don't want to put it all in,

yeah. And just also, like, you know, it's like, we have

distribution in place like we have, you know, we didn't. It's

not like this was the only way to sell the book, right? You

know? And that went well, so we continued doing that.

And then, you know, you gradually learn over time that

there's some books that fit better on Kickstarter and some

that don't, but then we had a weirder problem. Is like, when

we don't kick start something. People wouldn't hear about it.

Oh yeah, I was gonna ask about that. It seems like a good way

to gage interest. And then it's a weirder one, like we did a

we did a really amazing book chocolateology, which is, like

all all about chocolate, science of chocolate, chocolate recipes,

history of chocolate and

and we would bring it to events, and people would be like, Oh, I

didn't hear about this. Oh, and, you know? And you're like, Oh,

but I don't That makes no sense, because you're like, right in

the pocket, you know? And then they and then they would be

like, Oh, I didn't, was there a Kickstarter? I didn't see it.

And I was like, well, we don't always do Kickstarter. So that's

how a lot of people were keeping track of your list is through

Kickstarter, and still have that problem. So now we know more or

less, like, demographically, what works there and what

doesn't. And it because so it's like, the fascinating thing is,

like, so the average person that buys books, at least for

themselves, is like a woman over 50, right? Yeah, and primarily

black women over 50 are like the number one consumers of books to

read. Say that again, for the people in the back,

the number one person who buys books is black women over 50.

And so be mindful of that when you are developing your book and

they really,

you know, but that is not the average audience on Kickstarter.

The average audience on Kickstarter is much younger,

maybe half of that. I don't, we don't, like, they don't tell us

hard numbers. But, like, we do meet with Kickstarter several

times a year and, you know, we say, like, this is what we're

publishing. And they say, Okay, this works. This works. You

really should do a project for this. We have a promotion for

this, you know, etc, etc. But their audience, I would guess,

is in their late 20s, early 30s on average. They really like

comics. They really like graphic books. They you know, they

really like all kinds of stuff that doesn't really land in

trade accounts, like bookstores, more, gift book type, yeah. And

the

they really, you know, they want, like, the radical history,

you know, the more radical, the better. Yeah, most Yeah. Well,

someone who's going to our alternative channels to get

their books right. And what we found, too, that was

fascinating, is a lot of them, they do it because they don't

have time to go to the bookstore like they don't. And that's just

like, not their self image. They see that as, like, an old person

thing, right, right? Or a more sentimental person thing, and

that, you know, regard the Sophia, that's the perception.

So we found that that was like, especially for some books. So we

did like the faith Harper books, so we did the her first book was

unfuck your brain, I think. And then this is your brain on

anxiety. And then, and those ones that just, I think the

goal, I think our goal was like $5,000

or something. And we raised like 40 some $1,000 and did you say

unfuck your brain is one of your biggest sellers? Or it, well, it

will be, uh huh, you know, it just needs to know, it's only

been out like, 18 months, right? But in another year, it probably

will be our number one book, awesome, like, of all time. Or,

yeah, if it continues, because it's actually, it's literally

selling more every.

Month than it did the previous month. And like, at 18 months,

that's really unheard of in publishing. Normally you have,

like, a reverse or, like, you know, a half sine curve where

you, like, you grow and then you fall down, and then you you just

watch it, like, shrink to zero every month, you know. And so

for this, you know, these kinds of books, that's just like, sort

of where the interest is. And I think a lot of that was the, you

know, the Kickstarter obviously really helped. And it's just a

book that doesn't saturate, you know, it just keeps finding more

audiences. Everyone's looking to be unfucked, yeah, and people

are, you know, we did books like that 15 years ago, and people

did not appreciate them in this way. You know, it's really

people are ready to admit that they want and could benefit from

help, yeah, and they want to understand, like a no nonsense

guide to psychology by like, somebody with credential and

credibility, you know, they want all that. And, you know, and I

think that's why it does so well, I mean, and, you know, and

it's like we were talking this past week, where we're like, all

of our best books are just sort of like, are a better summary of

existing literature, you know, then is out there? Do you mean

in that they're more straightforward and don't talk

down to the reader? Yeah? Yeah. And so like, for those who are,

you know, like, it's like, in psychology, for example,

there's, like, you know, there's CBT and there's DBT, right? And

you don't mix them, you know, it's like, you'll read a book

about one or the other. Oh, you mean, in the literature, yeah,

okay, yeah. Cuz I was like, Is that, is that a thing that

you're not supposed to do?

And so it's funny, because, like, we get a lot of people

that will, you know, like, people that are in practices,

and they'll come in and they'll be like,

you know, I can't believe that you aren't like, tell suggesting

to people that you know to use this specific practice. And

she's like, I'm not really suggesting anything. Like, I

don't I'm not like, because you know most well, let's face it,

most people that write books in psychology or selling services

which she's not, right, right? Are there speaking tours or yeah

and so, or they have, like an upsell to, like a $99

product, or like $1,000 product, or whatever, you know, whereas

she's just like, No, I just actually want to help people,

you know. And she was another one where, like she was not like

she had been pitching like traditional psychology

publishers, and then nobody cared because she didn't have

enough platform. And then she came to us, and she was like,

well, all the books that I buy are published by you. So I

thought, nice,

you know. And then that was a good you know. And we're gonna

have, we are now publishing like four to six books a year by her.

So that's great. It's like at this rate, I mean, and that's

the other reason why her books are doing so well, is she's

really keeping up. Yeah, and she knows your audience probably as

well as you do now, probably better.

So you said something interesting about how other no

one else would acquire her because she didn't have a big

enough platform. How do you really, because that's kind of

common knowledge, is like, oh, a non fiction writer needs to have

this big platform in order to sell all their books. Like, how

do you relate to that idea? Like, because it sounds like

it's not quite as dumb idea. Yeah. I mean, it's like, so

that. I mean, that's how the major houses work. That's how,

like, the big five publishers, because that's, they don't know

how to sell books. You know, they don't know how to, like,

build audience. So the only thing is, they're like, Okay,

you already have an audience. Okay, how big? All right, we can

do this

to me a little bit. It's like, well, what's the point of you?

Yeah, and so, I mean, they're very handy if you have, like, a

runaway bestseller that you can't manage, right? Because

they can handle the distribution, they have the

financing, they have the staff, they have the access, they have

all the pieces, you know. So like, when 50 Shades of Gray was

too successful, that was a very smart thing for to do, to sell

the rights Right, yeah, but that, you know, they would never

have bought that book from the author before it was tested,

because it would be, it's like a bad, absurd, terrible book. I

mean, it would just be like the worst proposal,

but that's exactly it is. Like that person knew how to hustle,

right, you know, right? And so we have and, you know. And I was

doing the, you know, year end analysis just in January, and I

ran into, like, a really shocking thing, where I was,

like, every one of our best selling books is the author's

first book. Wow, you know. And, and, you know. So it's not like,

like, we've definitely, like, picked up authors that have been

New York Times bestsellers in the past and things like that.

And it never really or people that became one out and we

retained the rights, you know, right? And it never works. You

know, like, we know how to develop a book, and we know how

to make it where you're like, showing the value of the book

and who.

It's for like, which is, like, the book's development, and then

how to, like, package and design the book to make it work, yeah?

And, you know, and so that's kind of, you know, like we're

really looking at the substance, yeah, and the merit of what it's

offering, right, you know, and

which I don't think is normal, no. And how would you do the

research to find out whether the audience needs that so well, you

would look, and I have, I have hardened formulas in people's

guide to publishing, but the I'm assuming you're not offer asking

for your own benefit. No, no. I mean, I like to hear it, but

other people may also, right? And so the there's a couple

things you can do. So like, we have, you know, saw like Nielsen

bookscan is like a piece of software where you can look up

the lifetime sales and the like, week to date sales of any book

in print, you know, that is not, you know, that has any kind of

distribution, you know, and so sometimes these numbers are very

startling, sometimes startlingly high, sometimes startlingly low.

And you know, that really helps you to bear perspective, because

sometimes you'll like, when you're a member of the public or

even a book publisher, you will see, like, sometimes a six

figure marketing budget pumped into a book. And so it really

feels like that book was successful, yeah, because you

see it everywhere, but nobody actually buys.

And if you ever go to, like, Book Expo America, which I

believe, has moved back to New York City, you will,

you know, you'll just, you'll, the people will buy, basically,

like, wallpaper ads for their book cover, right? Because

they're just trying to figure out how to make people care,

yeah, you know. And it's like, every inch of, you know, I

space, there's like a commodity, because that's like, they know

that's where their audience is, that's they know where, that's

the where the accounts go, right, you know? And that is

like an increasingly corporatized space. So it

doesn't actually work, you know. And so it's like, if you're

like, it's kind of, or burros, like, because the people who are

buying it are also selling it, and there's just so much in the

same space and that they're also incredibly jaded, because

they've seen and heard every sales pitch and line of bullshit

and, like, lie basically to, you know, and so they just are

really looking for substance. And I think, like, if you think

those people are bitter and over it, like, try the general

public, like they've been advertised to for hundreds of

years, and are just so completely beyond fed up, you

know. And just like so trying to read between the lines, to be

like, what's the scam here, you know, and, and so this is sort

of we're looking at it where, you know, we're looking at like,

what's in print, what those books are selling. Where the

gaps are, you know, if, and sometimes there's really wide.

I mean, sometimes it's actually kind of unbelievable. Like,

we're publishing a book on adult friendship this fall, oh, called

friending and, and it's, it was unbelievable, because when the

author pitched us, and you know, she has a credential, she's like

a counselor that focuses on adult relationships in

Washington State and and she

wanted to write a book on adult friendships, and we were like,

oh, that's probably not something that we could do,

because there's probably so many books that we couldn't compete.

We're a small house like you might have maybe different

perceptions, but we're pretty small in the scope of things.

And she

and but we hadn't responded her yet, and we did the research,

and we found there were zero books in print about adult

friendships. There's a lot of books, like, for clinicians and

teachers and counselors and professionals, like, what are

considered technical books, like, right? Not, not books that

we sold in bookstores, but like, you know, you can get the $200

like, Field Guide, training manual to like, and maybe your,

maybe your therapist tells you to buy the workbook version of

it, or, yeah, and, then there's a lot of stuff for children, and

there's a lot of stuff for special needs children, but

there was not a single book for adults on how to make and

maintain friends, which was super fascinating to me, yeah?

Because, oh, I'm sorry, there was a few, like, out of print

Christian books specifically, but the Christian book market

has completely tanked because they all, they basically lost

sales to Amazon. So because they don't, they're oddly the

Christians were not terribly loyal to their local Christian

bookstores. So that was not so like, even in the era of like,

booming.

Independent bookstores. It's just like this. Fascinatingly,

you would think this would be an audience that would be loyal to

supporting their base, but they were not. And so the even the

Christian friendship books are out of print. So that was a

fascinating case, because we, you know, like you can

thoroughly research it. You can look at it.

There was, like, a humor book that was published about adult

friendships that came out, I think late last year, or maybe

early, yeah, it was late last year, early this year, from

Chronicle, you know, and but there's just nothing that is

actual, like, practical information about, like, how to

have friends that sounds great to me, exactly. Yeah, right

then. And that was the other thing where we were like, Okay,

this is something that would really help people. Yeah, I hear

people complaining about having such a hard time meeting friends

as an adult. Was like, I'm not in school anymore. There's not

this built in. And then I don't like the people I work with, so

I don't want to hang out with them. It's like, right? Right?

And so if you were just like, not microcosm, but were, you

know, an independent publisher, or a self publisher, or

whatever, there's other ways you can do it. You can look at the

sales rankings for categories on Amazon, and you know, as long as

you make sure that there isn't a celebrity that's dominating that

category, yeah, already. Or, you know, because it's basically

like, if all the sales are going to a single author, it may be

that people are only buying it because it's that author, not

because they're interested in the subject, you know. But I

learned about m preg on this very podcast. And, for example,

I don't know that's a book on the shelf type, but

it's the same principle, you know, that, like, it would seem,

that anybody could write a book on about men being pregnant that

would sell, you know, if you did it well and to standard and

reasonably and were respectful to your audience, right? You

know, whereas, like you cannot, if you went and wrote like a

Southern cooking book, you would not have the same results, no,

oh no, because if you're the wrong kind of person writing

that, you're gonna hear no end of shit, and it's just a

category completely dominated by celebrities. Yeah, yeah. Well,

cookbooks in general, I would think, yeah, yeah. And that you

basically now, at this point, to write a cookbook, you need to

have, like, a television show, or, even better, a YouTube

channel that is very successful, or to be a personality of some

other type, or to be somebody that's famous for something

completely unrelated, right? Yeah, and so that, you know. But

you basically want to assess that, you know. And the thing I

push, like I advocate for in the book, is like to actively be a

part of the communities that you're making books for, because

then you'll know if your concept is full of shit,

it's like you'll you would know. Like, if I

you know the the friendship one is a difficult example, but it

was like, if I was making that for an a different population, I

would have no way of assessing if they needed such a thing or

if they would do it. But like, as a person, I'm like, That

would actually be such a practical, useful skill for so

many people, yeah, well, and one thing that I've noticed is not a

lot of publishing companies are able to sell books based on

their own brand in the same way that microcosm is and they

could. Yeah, I'd like to, I'd like to hear more about the

intentionality of that for you, and how you compare yourself,

and how you think that maybe even bigger traditional

publishers might be able to do that better, right? Or anyone.

And this is the interesting thing is now, like the the major

flip now is that the majors have been losing market share over

the past 10. Well, depending how you look at it, 100 years, you

know, but it's really been down, most visibly in the last five to

10. And so I do think it would be harder for them, because, you

know, like I said, it's like they know how to do a few things

very well, and there's a lot of things they don't really know

how to do, you know, but for even a medium sized,

independent, you know, even for like, a company with 100

employees, you could still do the same thing that we do,

which is essentially to develop so that all,

maybe not quite all, but every you know, each of your imprints

would have sort of a coherent set of messaging and would

appeal to, maybe not every book would be bought by every person,

but they would at least, like have a friend that would relate

with it, you know. And there is, sort of, like, some ideological

underpinnings to the whole thing, and, and I don't even

know, you know, it's fascinating, because it's like,

if you looked at most small.

Presses that is there

to a point, right? You know, like, you'll see that up until

the point when they sign with a distributor and don't need to

represent themselves, and then they're being sold, like in a

catalog with 100 other publishers, at which point

they're not only doing, you know, books for a certain

audience. They're like, Oh, I got a pitch for this other thing

that seemed interesting to us, so we did that too. So you is

that, that extra inch, or that gender sec, that makes it so

some people go all the way and some people don't, is just like,

sticking with it, once you get scaled up, I think it's hard. So

I, you know, I mean as to the why? I think, I think it is just

like, it's very hard. So, like, my

I then this was the thing that I really enjoyed about working

with the distributors, is that we got to hang out with all the

other publishers. You know, we got to, like, have those moments

where so, like, when Morrissey was writing his autobiography.

He had, like, a contract fallout with little brown, and I got to

hang out with the guy from that publisher, as he, like, shook

his head and cursed Morris name.

I was like, oh yes, you know. But, and, you know. And it was

very funny. But on another level, it's like, it helps to

understand, like, the sort of the thought curve that's

happening for all of them, you know, where? And like, there was

nobody, well, I mean, we always joke that there is no other

microcosm, because there isn't, you know, and so, and it is

fascinating, because, like, we just don't have competition in

that way, that, because nobody is really doing what we do,

whatsoever. But, you know, you'll see, like, a similar

sized company that does, like, only books about photography,

like how to do photography, or they'll publish, like, books of

photography, or, you know, things like that. So it's more

subject based than ideology, yeah, yeah. And that works

really well, you know, because they then they have, like, a

coherent, you know, so their brand matters to the trade. It

doesn't matter to the consumer. Like, the only thing that

matters to the consumer is they're, like, I was needing a

book about how to take better product photography or better

portraits, or better, you know, iPhone photography, or whatever,

right? You know, they don't actually care who the publisher

is, because that's not a relevant part of the book,

right? You know, what they care about is, like, I have a need.

This book fulfills that need, whether that need is an

emotional need or a practical need, you know? And and so what

then makes that process fall apart is the publisher gets

bored, because they've done this for a number of years. It's a

very hectic, very contextual job where you have to juggle tons of

crap all the time, and you're constantly just putting out

fires. So then you get like a submission that you're like, Oh,

this is interesting. It has nothing to do with the rest of

what we do, but maybe we'll do it anyway, just kind of letting

your personal, like interest get in the way of staying on brand,

yeah, and something that's like, compelling but wrong, right, you

know, and I have certainly fallen prey to that myself and

or I know definitely when I was less, when I was easier,

hoodwinked. I would definitely allow myself to be hoodwinked by

people on occasion with their pitch. And fortunately, these

things are now all years in the past. That's good, but you'll

see that a lot, where something is just like an absolute, like

sore thumb in somebody's list well, and you had the story

about the Jane Goodall book that I read, and cringe and you know,

and it's like a cool book, but it is definitely a moment where

people tried to warn us. Boy, did they ever well? And you

would think so you you got a book by Jane Goodall about just

it was a nature book. I forget what the so she, Jane Goodall,

created a fellowship program for a local boy who was healing

animals that he would find in the woods, right? And she

created this whole like scholarship for him. And then

they did a, I believe was Discovery Channel, or maybe it

was the nature channel. I think it was Discovery Channel program

with him and about him, and,

and, you know, really, like, thought this kid was really

cool. Yeah, he is Yeah, and, and, you know, and then he

would, like, be the one where the pet store would call him

when they had a sick animal that they couldn't figure out how to

deal with it. And then when he adopted a Rhea, which is like a

cousin of an ostrich, it's the, it's the character that the Road

Runner TV show is based on. Oh, cute. He adopted one, which is,

like, bigger than any person I know to live in their family's

home, you know, when he was a child,

you know, and did he ride it around with a little saddle?

Yeah?

No, no, they're very they're actually very frail. Oh, and so,

and that's the other part where, like, they don't really exist in

North America except for meat, okay, and so. And then I'm sure

it's, like, a very expensive meat, because, like, I've never

heard of it, yeah, and and so what they did was, you know,

they had to basically, like, rebuild their entire home to

like, for this and, yeah, for this bird to exist and to live

safely. And so it's like, a lot of photos of the bird, and like,

sort of the stories, and, you know, I can kind of see how you

would be able to

meld, mend yourself, or, like, tie yourself in a pretzel. To

think that that would go in with this list, though, because it's

like, well, it's a little unique and, like, weird and

down to earth, connected to things like, I can see how that

would be. Well, it's not that off brand kind of still works,

and it's Jane Goodall. So you would think, with a name like

that, you can do absolutely anything. And she is very sweet

lady. I really, I mean, I had very positive,

you know, experience with that. But the issue is, sort of, she

has a foundation now. She cannot control the foundation. The

foundation is like, it's like an independent creature that is

sort of out from underneath her, yeah, so they had, they told her

what to do about the way that the book came across. Well, they

just don't want to, like, use their membership to promote the

book. And they don't want, you know, even though it's like, her

name, um, their organization, and then her personal passion

has become climate change, which is a very real problem, yeah,

and, you know? And so I think event, you know, she, like,

definitely put energy and effort behind it.

And, you know, but she's not doing a whole lot of book

signings. And what does she know? And, yeah, that's the

other issue. She's very old, yeah, I don't, I think she's in

her 80s. I mean, her heyday was really quite a while the 70s,

you know, maybe before that.

And so, like, was when she was doing her primate work and, and

so it's not anything like that, I thought, you know, and, but

it's more the issue is just like, we don't publish books

like that, right? Like, we're not a nature publisher, you

know? And I was really trying to package it like a gift book and

make it work, and it just wasn't working. Just didn't work. And,

you know, we got many, I mean, we did Barnes and Noble did it

as like a face up promotion on their tables for the holiday.

And that was probably the most copies we sold.

If that didn't work, pretty depressing. Yeah. And I don't

know how many, how much time you spend in Barnes and Noble, but

they can, it can feel like a graveyard sometimes, yeah. I

mean, in a lot of ways, it kind of is, yeah, yeah. And so

that's, I mean, because they were the ones that lost the

biggest chunk to Amazon, yeah, you know. So that's where

people, you know, people going in on price, that's where they

go. And then you know the constant weekly drama of Barnes

Noble also, yeah, yeah, right. Be fun to follow. Oh yeah. I

enjoyed that. As you you have listened to our our podcast, you

know that we do like sprinkling some drama in there from time to

time. Yeah, it's but yeah. So it's just like, you want to make

sure that you know, and that was the other thing, is, like, I'm

not a I don't buy nature books. Like, I would never buy a book

like this. And I think that was the other problem, where it

didn't come through authentically to the audience

that it needed to land with. Because the rest of your books

are books that you ask yourself whether you would buy or not,

yeah, yeah. And it's like, and then, like, I was actually

reading a book this morning before I got here that someone

had recommended to me, and it's a book about, like, life skills

for autistic people, or at least that's how it was pitched to me.

But it's by a medical doctor, written to sort of parents, and

it sort of writes about us like we're incapable of ever taking

care of ourselves or just learning takes agency away.

Yeah, and, you know, and it's like, if you remember that show

life goes on in the 80s where they had, like the main

character had Down syndrome, and the rest of the family basically

treated him like he couldn't ever have a life, you know. And

so it was like, anytime somebody wanted to date him, they were

like, This person is just taking advantage of you. And that's

kind of, you know. And so it's like, this is a book where I'm

like, I haven't looked it up yet, but I would hope, for all

intents and purposes, that it failed a miserable death,

because it's like, who, you know, like anybody that buys

that book buys that book out of self hatred, you know, yeah, and

it feels like that kind of way of relating to the world is, is

passe also just, I don't think that's the future. It's not

contemporary, certainly, but so that, you know, that's like the

best, like most important feedback device, you know.

Advice I would have is, like, does it feel authentic? Like,

would it resonate with you? Would you buy this book? You

know?

Okay, well, moving on to a different subject.

I mean, that's what interests me the most, to be completely

honest, is like, is like selections, how you select

books, how you but I would like to talk a little bit about

Amazon. Sure you don't do it anymore. It's over. Oh yeah.

That was a big like, wasn't it, like the headline of one of the

publishers weekly emails that came out, like, in November.

Think it was Shelf Awareness, okay, yeah. Cuz I remember

seeing that and being like, Oh yeah, they're they're right

here, right? That's cool. So how's it working out? It's been

amazing. It's been it's like, and every day I like, you know,

we have sort of, like, the attempt in the offices to be

quiet and to, like, not interrupt each other verbally.

But I, like, ran through the building being, like, announcing

that our experiment is it's so fascinating because so for

perspective, like how it works is so we're we publish,

we're the publisher we print in Illinois. Those books used to

get freighted to Tennessee, where they would then be shipped

to the various Amazon warehouses, the primary one

being in Hebron, Kentucky, and then those would be then

distributed around the world, etc, etc. And so that contract

ended in January. So now all of the books go from the printer to

Portland, just behind where we're sitting, you know, in a

adjacent building, and they and then we ship them ourselves to

the places that they're going, you know. And,

I mean, you know. So it's like wholesalers and bookstores and

gift stores and individual readers and etc, etc. And so

we then that gave us the first opportunity to not sell to

Amazon. You know, when we first started selling to Amazon?

I can't remember the year exactly, but it was circa 2000

say, 2000 okay, they got a 24% discount off the cover price.

Nowadays, I am contractually not allowed to tell you what

discount we were giving them, but let's say it was a

publishing company. It was a multiple of that number. That

was not two.

Let's say is the discount that they received. Yeah. So

ridiculous enough, even if it were and they so that's, you

know, in perspective is like Amazon is a retailer, you know,

who has argued that they are a wholesaler that needs a

wholesale discount. So they and then somehow, by extension of

that, they actually get a larger discount than any other

wholesaler. And then they argue that they need advertising money

from for the sake of listing and selling the book like any other

retailer does, right? And so by the end,

you're you're just giving it to them, basically for the cost of

printing production and author royalty, you know. And so it

just made, made no sense for us, because the only time that we

would want to be there is when we had a publicity hit where,

like, we had an author on NPR Weekend Edition, and they

directed all of the sales through Amazon, which is just

such a bummer. Yeah, you know that? And it's like, NPR, you

know, like, it's like, owned by the public. Like, we should, we

think they'd know better, you know. Like, that's the last

place they should send you, you know. And so it was a little

tough, you know, it's but most months, Amazon was 1% of our

sales net, you know, and, you know. And then sometimes, when

we have something like that, it would spike to, like, 8% right,

right, which is large enough to be annoying, you know, yeah, and

it's but it sounds like for you, it wasn't that big of a loss,

no, no, it was a gain. And so that was my, my joke in Shelf

Awareness is that I was like, why would you work with such an

uncooperative account that is such a small piece of your pie?

Yeah? Yeah. It's just not worth it, you know, because, and I,

you know, and I said that, knowing that most publishers,

that's 30, 40% of their business, sometimes, dare I hope

not more than that, you know, and that so those numbers has

just like, why? And I don't, you know, we definitely debated it

in the office. We were like, who, Whose idea was this, not to

do it anymore. I don't, and it may well have been my idea. I

don't remember, but just a rose organically from everyone. And

then we, when we thought about it, we were just like, we could

do this, you know, and, and we have a few other.

Sort of veteran employees, and they were like, we, you know,

like, you can't really keep them from getting there, but you can

keep from giving that to them on their terms, yeah. And you can

keep from giving it to them at an extreme discount, right? You

know, right? Because whoever's buying it from you and selling

it to them is the one taking the Yeah. And so what'll happen? And

so what Amazon has begun doing in recent years is they will

order through a wholesaler when the publisher has no supply, and

then, you know, they adjust the price accordingly. But a lot of

it is they're using like surge pricing and demand pricing and

things like that, you know. And so what we found, you know, then

we had no idea if they would just stop listing our books at

all, but we had so they were selling 1000 to 2000 a month of

unfuck your brain, you know, on Amazon. And so that was

fascinating, because we were like, well, they're gonna keep

selling it. They're not gonna just be like, Oh, can't, you

know, because Amazon is smart, if they are anything. So they're

not going to be like, Oh, no longer available. Keep hitting

reorder. It's not coming in. They're going to, like,

investigate where else to get it. Yeah, you know, for for the

cheap and so the the most fascinating thing that happened,

and I think it happened in the last few weeks, is that, you

know, they had gone from saying, you know, we expect this title

to be back in stock in about three months, to figuring out

that they were never going to get more in stock. And then they

eventually gave the buy button to Powells for those books, all

right, and so and so. Like the books are full price on Amazon,

but if you go into Powell's, it's like, 10 or 15% off. So

it's actually cheaper to buy it from powells.com than it is the

buy it from Amazon, or better yet, to buy it from us. That's

great. And, you know? And so that was, like, one of those

moments, you know. So that was my, like, big announcement to

the staff, where I was like, we have one like, we you know, it's

like, that weird experiment that everybody was like, what are you

gonna do? Are you

gonna be okay? We're gonna celebrate, right? Yeah, they're

like, I'll bring you a sandwich when you're hungry. It's cold,

you know? It actually worked out perfectly. And then the weirder

part was the new books they were ordering all the and who knows

how, probably through Baker, but you know, that's not that's all

like opaque, so you don't actually know, right? But we

could dig a little bit to find out. But so they began listing

our spring books, which we had sent them no data for. So they

were doing their homework to find them. Wow. And then they

were doing their homework to, you know, begin taking pre

orders for them. And so now this will be a fascinating part of it

to, like, see what happens. You know, are they gonna sell every

copy at a loss at some point? Because they're definitely

announcing some of the books at far below retail, right? You

know, 30, 40% off, you know? So it's like they're so strange.

We'll see, you know, and that's their whole thing. And then, I

don't know if you saw like the did you see the fourth quarter

reports? No, it was really awesome. It was like their sales

were up, but they had so over promise they would be even more

up that their stock fell because

people were like, you promised record earnings, you know. And

so it's, it's fascinating. And then, you know, and then it's

like, the amount of their business that is books shrank

even more right in their pie chart, you know. But that, and I

just thought it was hilarious that I was like, wow, even,

like, even the a

global monopoly, like the largest retailer in the world,

it's like it could never grow fast enough to satisfy the

stockholders. No, of course not. And especially when it's and

then, like, if you've read all the like consumer speculation

stuff, it's like they will never be able to raise their prices

enough to actually make money by selling things until they have

no competition.

Well, I mean, that explains a lot. So that's why they just

keep slashing and then, you know, and it's like, the same

thing where it's like, it's, you know, the the figure is, like,

it'll be, you know, if we raised all prices by 4% we can make all

goods in the US, but, like, the consumer is not willing to pay

that extra 4% right? If it's available for less, but it's

like, if, even so, the consumer is not willing to spend the

extra, like, 3% price hike on average, which Amazon would need

to become profitable in their retail division? I didn't

realize that that was such a long game for them. I thought it

was very long game. And it's like, you know, but it's the The

fascinating part to me is that I'm like, There's money being

made at the top, for sure. Oh yeah, oh yeah. And, you know,

but it's just like, all, like, liquid assets, where they're

like, it's all speculated money. Like, they don't need to be a

solvent company

to do that.

You know. So that is and, you know, and they do make money on

web services, right? Follow all this stuff, but, you know, so

it's not like it's totally a shell game or anything like

that, but it is completely fascinating to look at it that

way. And so that was kind of the other thing where, and I did, I

saw another, I think it was the Wall Street Journal, maybe,

where it just said, like, online consumer spending was just

moving away from every other retailer to Amazon, right? Yes,

and that how hard it was to do online retail. And I was like,

our online retail is, I mean, we definitely had some bum years,

like 2011 or so, 2012 but now it's just like, way up, you

know, yeah, well, and you have a subscription program too now,

right? Yeah, and we've had that since, I think, 2007

or, Oh, okay, maybe, and, but it was fascinating to watch how,

you know? I mean, it's more like when we do events, when we do

certain things like it results in a lot of web sales, yeah,

just from your site in particular. And because, yeah,

and what happens is, you know, they'll go to their local

bookstore, they'll see that they don't have it, they'll order

from us. That's great. And I think that's why our Amazon

sales have always been so low, is because, you know, we've sort

of trained our customers and our fans and our authors to be like,

This is where you go to buy the book, right? Well, that's great,

yeah.

Okay, so we're running out of time. Okay, let's do

just if you have any advice for someone who I mean, obviously

you wrote a whole book about it. Sorry, but what would you

a little what would be like the main piece of advice you would

give someone force who wanted to start their own publishing

company, so you really want to find a vacant niche, just not

just for your books, but like something that you could wrap

your whole company around and and you really, you know, people

really,

we call it the ground game here, where, which is just like

showing up, you know, it's like going to conferences and doing

events, and, you know, just like hanging out, and not just like

making a website and building your SEO, it's like, right? You

know, it's like you want and so, like, we did tours for years and

things like that to just kind of, you know, tell people that

we exist, yeah? And I feel like that's the part that, you know,

it's work. People don't always want to do it, yeah, that's

gonna take up a lot of your weekends, right? And, but that's

kind of how you make it work on the other hand, you know? And so

I would say, you know, like, and you want to make the kind of

thing where you can build a ground game around it, right?

And so there's a local publisher, Eraserhead, that is

has is really good at that. So they do bizarro fiction, and

they have just and they have their own, like, convention for

bizarro, bizarro con and, you know, and so and those. But

similarly to M preg, those books are very like, have an audience.

They sell. People are into it. I read the haunted vagina. Okay,

is that them? Is that eraser hat, or is that a racer hat or

different? I think it might be one of their imprints, of which

they have. I believe six. It was set in Portland. I do remember

that much. And so that Well, partly hardly in a magical land

inside of a woman's vagina,

right? But in Portland, but in Portland. And so they, they

have, they do it really well in that, like when you think of

bizarro fiction, you would probably think of them first,

right, you know. And there are definitely, like, people dipping

their toe into that genre now, but that's the kind of the way

that you would want to found a small press, is to be like, how

do you like? What will people think of when they think of you

like, what are your interests that resonate that where you

know you want to have an audience, where there's at least

5000 people, you know, ideally 50,000 but you know you Yeah,

because it's like, they're not all gonna buy your books, but

they'll all talk about your books right, paying attention to

what you're doing. And so you know, it's like, and I didn't

really understand that fully when I was younger. And, you

know, I definitely wasn't like, of that mind, or like thinking,

you know, because I wasn't intending the microcosm to be a

business like, I was thinking more of it as, like, something

that would be like, useful resources. And so I wasn't like,

you know, I was really, like, thinking within subculture, and

not really thinking like broader based development. And so it's

kind of the thing too, where then you realize that with time,

you won't just sell your stuff to like people that love bizarro

fiction. There are, like, adjacent populations, right? You

know, like there are people that are not quite up.

Heard of that, but they get it, you know. And they aren't going

to buy everything that you do, but they're going to be like,

this is a really cool book, you know, and that, and so, and I

think, like, a lot of the stuff that I did when I was younger

was, like, not really bringing those people in. I was, like,

developing in a way that was fairly repelling, you know,

even. And so to sort of figure out, you know, like, because

he's like, you know, it's like one thing to be like a cool

clubhouse, but like a cool clubhouse also feels kind of

like you're not welcome. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, that's,

that's a good way to

think about it, all right. Well, we're gonna wrap it up. Do you?

Where can people find you? So our we have a retail walk in

spot at 2752 North Williams Avenue in Portland. If you're

inside that large vagina of Portland, if you're not, you can

go to microcosm dot pub, and that's where you can look at our

online store and like, scope out and look at all the various

things that we do, yeah, and we'll link it all on on our

webpage, which by now, should look different

by the time of release. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, thank

you so much. It was a really great talk. And, yeah, see you

later. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the hybrid pub

Scout podcast, and this interview we just had with Joe

Biel of microcosm. If you are interested in getting a copy of

a people's guide to publishing, you can enter our giveaway,

either on our website or on Facebook or on Twitter, at

hybrid pub scout or go to microcosm dot pub. Grab your

copy and whatever else you are interested in on that website,

because there's a lot of cool stuff on there. Find us

online@hybridpubscout.com

at hybrid pub scout on Twitter and Facebook, and thanks for

giving a rip about books you you.