Many church leaders find themselves exhausted by traditional programming that no longer connects with their changing neighborhoods. In this episode, discover how fresh expressions can move you beyond fixing declining programs to creating vibrant new forms of faith community. Host Dwight Zscheile speaks with Shannon Kiser, Senior Director of Fresh Expressions North America, about her transformation from VBS burnout to pioneering fresh expressions that bring diverse families together through shared activities like soccer and art.

Shannon shares the "loving first journey" - a listening-first approach to developing fresh expressions that begins with discerning where God is already at work in your community rather than planning in committee rooms. Learn how to identify and release pioneers, supporters, and permission givers for fresh expressions in your congregation, and discover why fresh expressions actually energize inherited churches rather than competing with them. Whether you're struggling with volunteer recruitment, seeking to connect with your neighborhood's diversity, or wondering how to move from membership-focused to discipleship-centered ministry, this conversation offers practical insights into fresh expressions that create space for authentic community engagement and spiritual formation.

Hello everyone, welcome to the Pivot Podcast, where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Dwight Zscheile One of the key shifts we talk about regularly on the Pivot Podcast is a pivot in structure, from one size fits all models of ministry to a mixed ecology of inherited and new forms working together. Today, I'm thrilled to welcome the Reverend Shannon Kiser Senior Director of Fresh Expressions North America.

and author of the new book, Opening Space, a Vision for Fresh Expressions of Church and Creative Mission. Shannon's a Presbyterian pastor whose congregation in Northern Virginia has developed a creative set of fresh expressions ⁓ and other ministries that are connecting with all kinds of neighbors who aren't connected to a traditional church. In her new book, Shannon offers an excellent overview of fresh expressions of church, why we need them,

and how they complement traditional inherited churches. Shannon, welcome to the Pivot Podcast.

Well, it's truly a pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me, Dwight.

So tell us a bit about your own journey from traditional parish ministry to becoming a leader in the Fresh Expressions movement. Remind our listeners maybe who haven't heard or don't know that much about Fresh Expressions, like what are they, why do we need them, and what has shifted for you personally in that journey?

Yeah, I mean, what a great question. am, this is not how I imagined ministry when I was in seminary. This is, ⁓ I mean, just the fact that I'm in ministry ⁓ and taking microphones and teaching and preaching and all of those things. I was a very shy child. So my mother was astonished at that. But I feel like my whole story is about of like surprising, astonishing things that God is doing.

But really my shift into kind of the posture of fresh expressions really began in a local church context. I was serving a local church, know, traditional congregation, and it was time for vacation Bible school. ⁓ I literally was, ⁓ I found that I was hardly able to get out of bed. Now it's not that I...

had not like I love Vacation Bible School. It's not a knock on Vacation Bible School, but ⁓ just the thought of gearing up to this massive effort for the same kids begging for the same volunteers telling the same Bible stories to the same children was like, I don't know. was it just was ⁓ I was struggling to find the energy to do that again.

And at the same time I was like, how come we can't connect with the neighborhood kids? The neighborhood had changed all around the church. ⁓ It had been a ⁓ community that had been, I live in the Washington DC area. When it was originally developed, was kind of a, a lot of military would commute to the Pentagon from here. A lot of families.

And just, and now it was a neighborhood full of immigrants. People spoke all kinds of different languages. And the church didn't reflect that. And the kids that were coming to Bible school were just, they didn't reflect our neighborhood. And I was just brokenhearted in my spirit about that. And so I started praying like, God, how do we connect with our neighborhood children? Like, what could that look like? And one day I just was driving and I...

looked over and I saw a soccer field and I was like what brings English-speaking and Spanish-speaking children together? Soccer. ⁓ Or if you're from Spanish-speaking culture, football. And so just we began to reimagine what could Vacation Bible School look like that ⁓ connected with ⁓

kind of a soccer clinic, and then we began to imagine, you know, art clinic, and we put it all together, we, ⁓ long story short, our congregation became fully alive by ⁓ starting this initiative. I we wound up going to the local elementary school and testing it out, like at a summer camp night. Hey, would you be interested in this? had.

the bilingual resources in our church that I didn't even know existed until I started imagining this and praying into it. it just, was, we had no problem getting volunteers. And we had families that from all different cultures who were sitting around the table, sharing a meal together, singing songs together. And it was just so life-giving. And I thought this, well, why don't we do more of this?

That's what led me towards fresh expressions because what fresh expressions are really about is connecting with people in the everyday spaces and places and networks and relationships of life. ⁓

And it's not about like serving ourselves, it's about how do we live out self-giving love in all kinds of different ways ⁓ and forms. so that's really how I came into this work. It was simply through re-imagining Vacation Bible School, which helped me begin to reimagine so many things about how the church engages with people in the 21st century.

So in your book, you use the powerful image of friends lowering their paralyzed friend through the roof to reach Jesus. So how does that story capture what Fresh Expressions are all about? Say more, it connects into what you were just sharing.

Yeah, you know, I started, that story really did capture my imagination when I started thinking about this. ⁓ I was always, I was always, always captivated about, you know, what a risk it was to go up on the roof. Like that was, ⁓ that was a creative risky thing to do. ⁓

And the thing that really made me start meditating deeply on this story as regards to fresh expressions is ⁓ that people encounter Jesus through the door and

this friend needed a hole in the roof to be able to encounter Jesus. I Fresh Expressions is not about like, ⁓ let's give up on the inherited church or the traditional church. I mean there's just something beautiful and deep and wonderful. It shaped me, it formed me. I love the inherited church. But I also recognize the need for creative, maybe even a little bit risky ways of helping people

encounter the good news as actually good news, like that it tastes like or feels like or looks like good news. And I think it's going to take both. So the fact that the whole concept of doors and holes. ⁓

really captured my imagination. And the other thing that the story has really helped me wrestle with is that, you know, the friends took their friend up on the roof because they couldn't get through the door. There were so many people that the door was blocked. Now, I mean, I wish that our, I wish that were our problem right now, but it really started helping me just to meditate on what are the...

what are the things that are blocking the doors? You know, what are the things that are keeping people from encountering the life and the presence of Jesus? And then, you know, and so then what would that have us do? So that's really what that story has brought up in me. And at the end of the day, the friends took their friend up to the roof and did that risky thing really out of love for their friend.

⁓ And I do believe that fresh expressions cannot be rooted in, this is what's going to save our church or, you know, this is something that we have to do. Like, it's got to be motivated out of love. And I really see that reflected in that story.

So let's talk a bit about the kind of process of starting a fresh expression, what's often known as the loving first journey. And you talk about this a bit in your book. What are those steps in that journey? why is it important to take those rather than, I think, sometimes the more attractional steps that we might take in a traditional church?

Yeah, am, you know, I think one of the things ⁓ about the loving first journey, the fresh expressions journey, the missional journey, whatever you want to call it. I mean, it's not rocket science and it's not something that, I mean, it's something that you see just in the life of Jesus. But I think right now what it really has the capacity to do is

whole church people out of the programmatic default that is so like it's so embedded in our culture that we automatically we so easily go into a meeting room in our church space and cobble together the program that we think we should offer or we think people want and and what

What that does is that removes us from the actual people that we're trying to connect. It makes a lot of assumptions and it often is shaped more by the questions we're asking or the things we're desiring versus really ⁓ engaging with people actually where they are and in the questions they are ⁓ navigating and the longings and hopes that they have.

So it begins to flip it on its head and it's simple but it's not easy, I guess is what I wanna say. ⁓ So it really does start with listening. ⁓ If it starts in a committee room assuming, then it's always gonna be a little bit off kilter. So how do we listen to our community and how do we...

listen to God. know, God, do you want to have us, what do you want us to do? Where, you know, where are you already at work? But it's also listening to the people that are on your heart, whether that's a neighborhood or whether that's a particular network, like, oh my gosh, my heart just breaks for single moms. What, you know, how do I, how do I listen deeply to other single moms and, and really begin to hear their stories and their

celebrations and their laments, right? That begins to help shape ⁓ what it looks like to love and serve and be in mutual relationship here. ⁓ Because, you know, the next part of the journey really is self-giving love in the way of Jesus. So how do we... ⁓

love, how do we love these people? What does that look like concretely? And I think in that part of the journey, it's just really important because church people think about service as doing things for people.

Instead, it's about how can we be ⁓ servant-hearted? How can we love people well, ⁓ right where they are? Based on what we've heard and listened and what God is helping us to see and feel and ⁓ understand about people, then how do we love and serve well in such a way that we're building mutual relationships?

that I am receiving as much as I'm giving, you know, and which allows community to form. And then the next part of the journey is really how do we deepen community? How do we build and deepen community? So it's not just like you and me Dwight, but we're beginning to build a sense of shared community. And from the onset that community ⁓ can be formed and some of the priorities of Jesus, like it's already reflected

some of the good news before we're even, you know, jumping into anything that remotely looks like formal discipleship, right? It's just we are formed in community. So the way that we ⁓ work through conflict together, the way we encourage one another, the way that we ⁓ care for one another, all of those things are part of community rhythms, right?

⁓ But then there is an opportunity to really think about how do I explore discipleship in a way that makes sense for these people that are gathering. Like it actually comes out of the culture. ⁓ It makes sense for the culture. And so this is typically where people are confused. Like, well, I love to just hang out with people, but how do I take it from hanging out to ⁓ we're exploring faith?

together. Well that happens in a multitude of ways. It starts by just being ⁓ a compelling ⁓ embodiment of the priorities of Jesus and in the way of Jesus in the community, right? Like you out yourself as a Christian in ⁓ kind of ⁓ natural ways.

You're living that out. There's just a compelling this to your presence and people begin to ask curious questions about that or they respond to that ⁓ They're picking up clues about the community like those are all things that they're already happening, but there are opportunities where you can begin to see There are some people who want to go deeper

Can I give them some opt-in opportunities? Not that takes over the community and forces everybody to be at a place where they're not.

that pays attention and offers some opt-in opportunities to begin to explore faith together or to begin to pray together, ⁓ to begin to ⁓ engage scripture together, to serve in a deeper way together, ⁓ to live out the mercy of Jesus together. So that's exploring discipleship. It takes informal ⁓ ways and more formal

ways and it's just a dance with the spirit. I can't give people the script for that but it takes shape in the natural sense of community and the people who are coming to faith and then ultimately church can begin to take shape that has a

all of the beautiful essentials of the church, like relationship with God and care for one another and an outward servant-hooded posture as we reach out to others and a sense that we're a small part of the larger body of Christ, but the forms and the rituals may look a little bit different than our traditional churches, but they make perfect sense for the

culture in which they find themselves. And that's really the journey and the listening just is always a part of the journey. There's an intentionality to it, but it's not a force fit. It's not a checklist. ⁓ It's an attentiveness to a deepening ⁓ friendships that lead to community that lead to exploring the things that ⁓

that matter and ultimately to Christ-centered community beginning to form.

That sounds like a very organic and not necessarily fast process. I imagine that can take a while. What have you learned about, as a pastor, finding leaders within a congregation, inherited congregation, who are called to do that kind of work? And in your book, you talk about these three roles of pioneers, permission givers, and supporters. Maybe speak to that as well as we think about

Yeah.

you know, who does ⁓ this work of starting these communities? Does everyone do it? Are they all expected to do it? Or what does that look like?

Yeah, we use the words, yeah, pioneers, supporters and permission givers is the words we use. Pioneer, trailblazer, missionary, entrepreneur, you can use lots of language. It's just describing something that there are people who are just kind of wired.

to, I guess, connectors, right? I think, I think...

As we look at who starts these things, everyday people start these things. ⁓ It's not just pastors, ⁓ although some pastors do, ⁓ but it's anybody. And because it can happen in any kinds of spaces, ⁓ pioneers or trailblazers look like different things. They can be extroverted, they can be introverted. ⁓

They can be into ⁓ skateboarding. They can be into ⁓ playing the French horn. Like they can be interested in all kinds of different things. But what they do, they have a bit of a restless heart. Like ⁓ they might not get super jazzed about serving on your facility committee, the church, but there's like, there's people that they know, people in their spheres or just

just kind of they have a heart for people who are forgotten or left out or needing the life of the gospel in some way. They're like with the 99 and their heart breaks for the one. That's your pioneers and many pioneers don't even think of themselves this way. But like I was talking to a woman

just earlier this week and she's a serial entrepreneur. She started all these businesses. She's a martial arts instructor because martial art, she had started a martial arts studio at some point. She and when she comes alive, it's seeing these women in her martial arts classes beginning to become empowered.

⁓ and they began to ⁓ realize they have strength they didn't know that they had and she's like I just

I just want to pour myself out to these women. Like it just makes me so happy that they're coming alive there and I just know they could come alive in so many other aspects of their life too. Now at the same time she was like I really feel called to ministry and so she wound up she went to getting hired by church and then they wanted her do the all this stuff inside the church.

Like they started consuming all of her time in the church, right? And she began to say, but I just...

really I wish I could spend more time with these women in the martial arts studio and that's a pioneer. Like she's struggling. She actually quit that church job because she's like I think I'm supposed to be back with the martial arts women. Right? She just she realizes there's this something more and this is something she loves to do and she just has a heart for these women. So now we're beginning to help her think about what would it look like for

something to begin to emerge right there in the martial arts studio where faith exploration and your passion and these women like that can all converge together in a beautiful way in this space and I get to watch her come alive with that idea like she's super stoked about that idea. So I think it's these people who have natural connections they they they they they're animated followers

of Jesus who want to live that out in a meaningful way with others. Whether that's you know a parent who sees other stressed out parents and wants to really pour themselves out there. ⁓ I think the supporters are those who may not be your front-line goers but they believe in this vision. They know this is something that ⁓

that the church should be engaged in. They will do anything in the background. They would move heaven and earth so that this martial arts instructor could pour into the lives of these women.

And so ⁓ they can pray in the background. They can contribute by doing some needed things to help that mission and ministry. ⁓ But they may not be your front line goers for whatever reason. And they may be a pioneer over here, but not over here. They really need to be a supporter over there just because of their ability to connect and friendship.

in some different kinds of spaces or ⁓ shared hobbies or interests or whatever it may be. Permission givers tend to be pastors, ⁓ influential people in the congregation who ⁓ they just have an influential voice.

They ⁓ can legitimize some things that are happening on the edges. They know how to work the system. They know how to release, you know, some funds if there's some financial support that's needed. They are the ones who plan worship and can, and so they can tell some of the stories of what's happening. They can, ⁓ when there are people who are pushing back, hey, why are we bothering?

with this ministry on the edge ⁓ with day laborers, can say, they can kind of block and tackle and they can protect some of the things that are happening on the edges ⁓ from some people who may not.

fully understand or even embrace the idea, right? ⁓ And so they're really helpful in the system, especially for, I think of it as big P pioneers and little P pioneers. The big P pioneers are gonna go out and do this no matter what. They're gonna, they have this idea, they have this passion, and they don't really care whether somebody gives them permission or not. They're gonna go live it out.

But we have a lot of little P pioneers in our congregations who if they could just.

capture this vision, they might actually begin to see, you know, I actually have a heart ⁓ for other families who are struggling with kids with intellectual or developmental disabilities or I love to play games with people. Like I just have friends who are into games. Like what if I inhabited that space in a different way? I watched one pioneer come to life when

He had given up his motorcycle club when he became a Christian because he thought that was not something he should do as a person of faith. ⁓

I won't go into why, but for a lot of reasons why. And when he heard about Fresh Expressions, his permission giver, his pastor sat down with him, invited him to coffee. He's like, you know what? You're somebody who's just on fire in your faith. you're fun to be around, people loved, and I know you love motorcycles.

What if you like actually got on your motorcycle? Like what if that shared hobby and interest became a place of mission and ministry for you? And he was like, you mean...

I could write like I could be part of Motorcycle Club and I got to watch him like it was so amazing. They did a blessing of the bikes one day at the Harley-Davidson store and and he was up there and he was praying. He was like leading a prayer of all of his motorcycle buddy friends and and every time he would say ⁓ Lord hear our prayer you have them.

rev the engines and he would just like totally light up doing this. It was something he loved to do and he never had imagined before that it was something that he could do for God. He thought it was something he had to move away from as a person of faith and to discover he can move into it as a person of faith just absolutely set him on fire and I think

You know, those are the opportunities that we have in every congregation.

So I love the ⁓ energy that is in these stories. In other words, people who are coming alive because their faith is getting connected to things that they care about and they have a heart for and they're passionate about in daily life. And I think sometimes church leaders can get stuck in trying to get people passionate about kind of very in the box church activities and programs and committees and institutional maintenance things.

⁓ rather than say, we're really here to release you and equip you to be an ambassador for Jesus in those places where your heart has already led you, you know, with those communities, those neighbors. So ⁓ I love that. ⁓ So in terms of, you know, people being, congregations being transformed, inherited congregations being transformed by this kind of journey.

⁓ You talk in the book about kind of bored Christians in existing churches. There are a few of those out there across the church landscape. ⁓ How might churches be revitalized as a kind of part of this dynamic of the spirit working on the edges through some people who are starting these kinds of communities?

Yeah, I mean, I think when, so we're super used to in the church, like ⁓ we ⁓ kind of set the agenda and the conversation like, okay, here's what we're gonna do. I think, ⁓ you know,

As we step into fresh expressions, it requires a different level of trust. Like we are not the starter of all conversations. We are participating in a way that ⁓ maybe ⁓ maybe we're not used to maybe makes us a little bit uncomfortable. It actually calls forth a deeper sense of openness to listening and learning.

and being curious as well as a need to more deeply trust God in the going. Like we don't have all the answers. We don't get to manage the script, right? And that's beautiful and also a little ⁓ discomforting. And so it requires trust, as we ⁓ live out trust,

⁓ we actually grow in trust. So it's, I think it allows us to be a little bit more playful ⁓ in the way that we live out our faith. ⁓ It certainly ⁓ invites us to get a little bit more... ⁓

honest and connected and integrated in the way that we are ⁓ inhabiting. We're not, we're not, it's not intellectual ascent ⁓ as much as it is embodied, ⁓ embodying ⁓ those things that we believe. And so in that way, it actually is, grows us as disciples. ⁓

Hmm.

we it activates us in a way that grows us as disciples. And so so I think that is ⁓ what's powerfully happening in those who are doing this work. And then as the stories seep back into the local congregation, because you know, in Fresh Expressions, you don't have to get the whole church to all on board at the same time. Okay, we're all going to do this now.

It's like we're setting some pioneers to live this out and then come share the stories from the edges. And what winds up happening in the Inherited Church when that happens is they're sharing the stories of like this is what I'm learning, this is what I'm experiencing, this is how I'm to trust God more. And by the way these are the stories of the things that I'm seeing happening.

you know, in these different spaces and places and among peoples that like God's doing some incredible stuff and you know God was already at work there for I was ever there and I noticed this and I've seen this and did you know this about our community? Like as these stories get told in our congregations, our congregations are like...

Wow, like they begin to think like we're a part of this, you know, like we're we're connected with this stuff that God is doing over there.

and it actually raises the spiritual temperature of the existing congregation. And it calls, it begins to help them begin to get eyes to see like, how do I inhabit my spaces differently or where else is God working or like those kind of things begin to happen. It's not going to happen all at once. You're going to have kind of your your edge people who are trying some experiments, learning some things,

as those stories come back and the congregation feels the life of it, actually builds their, like increases their spiritual life and their willingness to trust and their ⁓ excitement about the transformative work that is happening in their community.

I love that. trust is such a great synonym for faith. That's what it's all about. So Shannon, thank you so much for this conversation. We're going to continue and go deeper next week in part two. ⁓ So for our listeners and viewers, be sure to ⁓ join us for that second part of the conversation when we're going to dig into some more examples and case studies, if you will.

Bye.

But Shannon, ⁓ where can our viewers and listeners find out more about Fresh Expressions in North America and your work?

Yes, freshexpressions.com is the best way to find out all kinds of things. On there we ⁓ have a tab called Snapshots that is all kinds of stories. ⁓

that we're trying to put out there. Like these are the things that are happening out there. ⁓ But you can find out about all of our trainings. You can connect with our team there. ⁓ And then ⁓ obviously I think you made this comment earlier, but we have resources and ⁓ books and blogs and all that kind of podcasts. ⁓ So all of that you can connect through freshexpressions.com.

Thanks. And so to our audience, thank you for joining us on another episode of Pivot. If you found this conversation helpful, share it with a friend. Like and subscribe if you're catching us on YouTube or leave a review on your podcast platform. See you next week.