Ian Kersey, Thomson Reuters, Senior Accessibility Specialist

Ian Kersey supports the designers in customer-facing products at Thomson Reuters.  That includes adding annotations to Figma prototypes and making sure developers have everything they need. Starting in an accessibility office at a community college, Ian continued his career with accessibility consulting, including working at Level Access. 

Mentioned in this episode:

Info about Accessibility at Blink

(bright upbeat music)

- Hello, this is "Digital Accessibility:

The People Behind the Progress".

I'm Joe Welinske, the creator and host of this series.

And as an accessibility professional myself,

I find it very interesting

as to how others have found their way into this profession.

So let's meet one of those people right now

and hear about their journey.

(bright upbeat music continues)

All right, well, here we go

with another episode where I have the great opportunity

to meet another accessibility practitioner

and find out a little bit about them.

And today I'm meeting with Ian Kersey.

Hello Ian, how are you today?

- Hey, good. How are you, Joe?

- Everything's going well.

And as mostly usual, I'm at my home office on Vashon Island,

which is near Blink's Seattle headquarters.

Where are you talking to us from?

- I'm actually in Kansas City, Missouri.

So yeah, the heartland, I suppose.

(Ian chuckling)

- Right, is that where you're based at?

- Yeah, I'm actually fully remote right now,

but I actually just moved here

about a year ago from the West Coast.

So I was in Oregon for a long time.

So I'm familiar with Seattle.

- All right, great.

My wife and I spent a lot of time on the Oregon coast.

At the start of this year, we made made three trips

and kind of worked our way through all of it.

So it's a great state with a lot of cool stuff to see.

- Yeah, for sure.

I really love the coast there, yeah.

- Well, talk to me a little bit

about what you're up to right now.

That's always a good place to start.

- Yeah, for sure.

Well, right now I'm a senior accessibility specialist

at Thompson Reuters.

And before I get going, I also wanna mention that,

you know, everything I say here today

are my opinions, are my own,

and don't reflect Thompson Reuters.

So just put that out there.

Yeah, but I do a lot of,

so yeah, I do a lot of stuff.

What I do there is, we're really in a point

where we're shifting left pretty hard at Thompson Reuters.

So, you know, I interact with pretty much everybody,

you know, from designers to developers.

So I'm involved in kind of the life cycle of a product.

Yeah, we have a lot of products there that are...

Of course there's, most people are familiar

with the Reuters news service,

that's a part of Thompson Reuters.

But we also have a bunch of law programs

and stuff like that too.

So software that lawyers use and things like that.

So some really kind of interesting,

some interesting stuff to work on.

Mainly what I focus on is the customer facing

side of kind of Thompson Reuters,

so, of some of the products there.

- Well, I'm sure you have a lot

of different things going on,

but kind what's a day in the life

or a week in the work life like for you?

Are there any particular things that are always going on

or any particular tasks that are critical

to what you're involved in?

- Yeah, for sure.

So, you know, we do work, Agile, so we work in sprints.

And so, you know, depending on the cycle of the sprints,

you know, I'll be working.

So, like for this week, for instance,

we're in a more design heavy sprint.

And then after that ends, that work will go to development.

So right now I'm just kind of hanging out with the designers

as they're doing their work, kind of reviewing their work.

I really am a part of the design process, it feels like.

So, there's a lot of that going on.

So this week is a lot of design stuff,

which I love 'cause I also have a design background.

So I really love getting in there

and also just kind of being able

to impart kind of some accessibility knowledge

onto the designers too, which is really critical

and that kind of shift left kind of mentality.

And then, you know, as we do the development,

there's kind of like the handoffs.

So there's, you know, I'll meet with the developers

and just tell them like, "Hey,"

like, "here's what the designs are.

Here's some concerns for accessibility."

One thing I did just leave out there is annotations.

So we do a lot of our work in Figma, the design work,

and we'll actually go into Figma

and make accessibility notations on those Figma files.

So that's also a part I really enjoy.

So by the time we hand off to dev,

we just try to make sure that we've given the devs,

you know, anything they can possibly have, right?

To make their thing accessible.

So all of our annotations link back

to some acceptance criteria,

which are pretty similar to,

you know, it's the kind of thing

where it's like we tell the developers

how they should be coded accessibly

and all that kind of stuff.

So we have that repository as well.

So we just try to give the devs all they need

before they get coding.

- How's it- - Then after that-

- Oh, go ahead. - Oh, sorry.

So after that, it's just kind of accessibility testing,

logging bugs, if there are any bugs,

and then reviewing those bugs with the developers.

- How is accessibility set up generally

in your organizations?

You mentioned the things that you do.

Are you or your colleagues tied to certain products

or parts of the organization

or is it more of across the spectrum

and you provide support in different areas?

- Yeah, it's kind of, you know,

it's kind of all the above, right?

Like we do have, I'm in a group

that is tied to a certain specific

kind of umbrella of products, right?

So, and we have, we call them pods,

but they're just kind of little,

well, they're not little, but they're groupings, right.

So we do have work that is tied

to specific pods and products.

There's also a team that is focused on,

like, say like the Reuters website

or other kind of work that's going around.

So we do have like some accessibility specialists

that are kind of floating around, right.

Just kind of picking up whatever work is out there.

It's just such a large company.

We have so many products

that it's really just kind of, yeah, so.

- Well, for anybody that's heard any of our episodes,

one of the things I always like to get into

is hear about the path that people took

to get where they are today in accessibility.

And so, to start with you,

where were some of your first exposures

to something that maybe started

to lead you to professional interest in this area?

- Yeah, so I, you know, in around,

so I've been a web developer for about,

I think, eight years now.

I kind of dabbled in it, but I got really serious

about it about eight years ago.

And then kind of a couple years into that,

I decided to go back to college 'cause I never got a degree.

So I decided like, "Hey, let's go do that."

So when I did that,

I went to a community college to start out.

And while I was there, I was just looking

for a part-time kind of job.

And I got a job at the accessibility office

at the community college.

So there, I got to do a whole variety of things.

You know, I got to do a lot of technical things.

So I got to do stuff like, you know,

textbook group, PDF remediation, you know,

showing students how to use certain assistive technologies,

like smart pens and stuff like that.

So, you know, studying strategies and things like that.

So a lot of work directly with students with disabilities.

I also was in the classroom sometimes

with some students just scribing, taking notes,

maybe manipulating materials and stuff like that.

So that was really kind of like,

the eye opening experience for me, right?

Like I've always had kind

of a social justice activist streak in me,

but I never really had focused on accessibility before

or accommodations and things like that.

So a lot of the stuff that,

the barriers that I saw in the college setting

really kind of opened my eyes.

Like, wow, there's a lot of work here

that needs to be done, right.

There's a lot of inequities here

that are built into the environment.

And I would like to be a part of that,

to, you know, be a part of the change

to help clear those barriers in any way that I can.

So that's kind of how I got started.

I did that for a while.

And then I got a job at a small company,

a consulting accessibility company,

so doing audits of websites and stuff like that,

very similar to level access of a DQ.

So I kind of started to cut my teeth on, testing there.

And then eventually moved my way over to level access.

And I was there for a while

before coming to Thompson Reuters, so.

- Well, you mentioned your work in academic institution.

That's definitely a place

where we've heard a lot of people had their start

because there is so much accessibility needed

and going on there.

And then you also mentioned that you already had come in

with some work experience in the coding area, I think.

And so, yeah, that sounds

like you were well placed to get going.

I imagine when you moved from the academic

to the consulting side, or maybe I should assume

that it was a lot different,

but, you know, what did you think about that experience?

How did that fill out that next step in your career growth?

- Yeah, you know, I liked it.

I did, it really exercised my technical side, right?

Like I was able to call,

like call my development background a little bit more.

And at that point too,

when I had been doing web development before,

I'd heard of ARIA and things like that, right?

But I never really had used it a lot.

So it's kind of that unfortunate thing about, you know,

developers aren't really taught about accessibility

when you learn about development, right.

So I really sharpened my skills there

and that was really cool.

I loved just kind of, I mean, you know,

that was when I kind of memorized WCAG

and looked at all these other standards

and got to learn how to, you know, code things

in a way that would be accessible, so that was cool.

I did really miss working with the students directly.

That was kind of a thing that I really enjoyed doing,

but, you know, it's interesting 'cause I was,

instead of being directly with students

and kind of, you know, working on accessibility

directly with people, I was doing it for companies

that would eventually make their products better,

more accessible for people with disabilities.

So at the end of the day,

I felt like I was still doing the work that I wanted to do.

It was still, you know, kind of that work,

but it was just a little bit different.

Yeah, and I think overall, you know, I liked consulting,

but there was also a part of me that really,

I like my position now because I'm at a company

where I can see things through, right.

I can kind of see the change happen.

When you're consulting, it's kind of like,

you get the work, you do it, you hand it back off, right.

And that's fine, but you never really get

to sit with that company

and see the progress they've made, right, so.

- Yeah, and so, when you're doing the consulting work,

was there a certain part of the process

you were involved in?

Was it more on the, you know,

checking in once things had been built

and identifying issues

or I believe you mentioned shift left early on,

you know, the idea about getting involved

in accessibility at the earliest stages

of product development.

So what was it like in your experience

in the consulting area.

Was it all over the place or was it more

kind of end of the line versus the start?

- Yeah, I would say, you know,

that most of it was kind of like, unfortunately, you know,

and yeah, it was like a lawsuit driven mostly, right.

So people would come to us, they'd say like,

"Hey, we got a demand letter, we gotta fix our stuff."

That wasn't always the case.

There were some places that some people that,

some companies that I consulted with that were really,

that weren't doing accessibility.

They didn't have like an in-house team,

so they would have us do it, right.

So they were in the place

where they were not just kind of combating

that kind of swirl of just, you know, making stuff

and then kind of trying to patch it up, right.

But I would say that like, honestly,

a lot of what I saw was, "We got a demand letter,

we gotta fix this thing."

And so that was challenging because, you know,

those are valid points, but for me,

the business case isn't why I'm in accessibility, right?

Like I'm in accessibility to make things better for people.

And I guess one could argue that lawsuits do

maybe eventually make things more accessible,

but culture wise, I think that really focusing

on the people that you're affecting is the way to go.

Yeah, so, yeah. - Yeah.

So then what was the next stage after that?

Where d'you start working with

after that part of your career?

- So I would say that at least

when I got more towards the end of my consulting,

which like around January of this year

is when I hopped to Thompson Reuters.

So about like the half, the last six months of that role,

I was actually doing more of the leading clients

in their accessibility efforts too.

So it was less of the kind of heads down,

just testing all the time to like,

okay, we've got your reports,

now let's figure out how we're gonna incorporate this

into your workflow and stuff like that.

Or just even prioritizing things with the company,

meeting with stakeholders and sort of more of that,

you know, not the human-focused side,

but less of just the straight up testing

and more of the kind of client stuff.

But yeah, now I'm at Thompson Reuters,

so it's definitely a completely different position.

Like I almost don't do any testing anymore.

Like I do do some testing, but we have, you know,

we have a testing team that does that.

So yeah, for me, it's mostly, a lot of design work,

a lot of meeting with people kinda stuff.

- Well it's so, I imagine,

that since you're doing all the work

that you already mentioned that you're doing there,

that there's strong commitment

from maybe the leading parts of the organization

that have made that possible, is that the case?

It sounds like you're well placed,

they have the resources and things

to bring it into all the different product groups.

- Yeah, no, it really is.

And that was kind of,

that was why I was so excited about the position, you know.

It's just, they really have a great commitment

to accessibility and it, you know,

and we do have a lot of resources for it.

So it feels like a good place to be.

I know a lot of companies have, you know,

over the last year or so, they're starting

to look for more accessibility professionals.

And I think that that's great,

but there are some job postings that I saw

that I was kind of like, "Ooh, I'm not sure if..."

You know, they might have one person

or two people for a big company.

And I'm like, I don't know, you know,

that's gonna be rough, right?

To put it nicely.

But like, I do think that any commitment

to accessibility is great,

but the position I'm in right now is awesome

to have a great team to work with and support.

And also just other accessibility professionals

you can just talk to, you know,

because nothing's cut and dry

with digital accessibility, right?

Like, there's that old joke, but maybe not so old,

but you can put five accessibility professionals in a room

and ask them one question

and you're gonna get 10 different answers

for something, right?

So it's just nice to bounce things off of people.

And then also have people

with different abilities on your team too.

So you can really be like,

I can be like, hey, like I know how

to use a screen reader as a sighted person,

but like, what is it really like for other people, right?

And, you know, we also do like user testing

and stuff like that,

so that's also a great piece that I like,

is actually going on to the users

and seeing what their experience is

and, you know, expanding from there, so.

- Well, with a large organization like yours,

with so many different things going on,

how is it set up in terms of making sure

that accessibility embeds itself

throughout the organization?

Are there certain, you know, standards,

or levels for groups to get involved with it,

or does each group kind of find their way with support

from people like yourself, kind of how is that set up?

- Yeah, so we really are, you know, trying to put,

we're putting basically specialists like myself in every,

trying to put them in every pod that's possible, right.

And then in places where people kind of float around

or maybe go from a different project to a different project,

it's kind of like creating those connections, right.

Creating those connections with design,

with development, all the different teams,

letting them know that you're here, right.

And then, you know, from there,

it's really going to all of the meetings,

just getting into those meetings

and saying, "Hey, everyone."

Like, "I'm Ian, I'm here."

Like, "This is what I do."

And then over time, you know,

you just build that relationship with those people

and you show up at meetings,

or you do reviews and stuff like that.

And you really just become a part of that team.

So there's a lot of education, you know,

for teams that haven't worked with specialists before,

have the specialists embedded in their team, you know.

At first it's kind of like,

people aren't really sure what your position is

or what you're really doing there.

Like, are you here just to review stuff?

Like, you know, whatever.

But really, it's about being part of that process.

And what I've seen over the last six months is that,

you know, now I'm embedded with my designers,

I'm embedded with my developers.

They don't think twice about reaching out to me

in a process, a workflow process.

I can always reach out to them.

So yeah, that's really the idea, you know.

And of course these things take time

and, you know, with these kind of like shifts, right.

Like, of getting people in there, but that's the idea,

is just get us in everywhere we can.

And along with that is the education piece as well.

You know, I know some companies have kind of like,

they have like accessibility champion kind of projects,

which are great too, where you have like, maybe,

you know, some developers that kind of are focused

on doing accessibility for a couple months

or they have weekly meetups and they talk about it, right,

like accessibility is their sole focus,

but they really do like get in there

and try to champion accessibility.

And, you know, I think we're doing a similar approach,

but I'm doing that with everybody, right.

Like our idea is to get everybody knowledgeable

about accessibility, not just a few people.

And there are also efforts

from our internal communication and stuff like that

like on how to create accessible documents, right.

And stuff like that.

So even maybe some of the people on the accounts side

or on like other sides

that aren't in the design side of the house,

they also are getting communications

about, you know, how to create accessible documents.

And we do have, you know.

Then also having like a, what do we call it?

Just like a measurement, right?

Like a measurement of the whole kind of,

the accessibility health of the whole organization.

But we're all striving to meet a certain goal there too.

So, yeah.

- Well, yeah, so you mentioned some of the things

that you're working on right now, moving forward.

And so, you know, one of the things I like to ask

as well is just kind of looking ahead,

if you have any thoughts, you know,

a couple different ways, possibly you have some initiatives

that you're excited about that you're able to discuss

or possibly just things from your own career

that you're kind of looking forward

to maybe making some moves into areas

that hadn't been possible in the past for whatever reason.

Has anything come to mind in those areas?

- Yeah, I have just recently gotten involved

in the WCAG AG meetings.

So I've been involved with Thompson Reuters

in the WCAG meetings, which is like,

it's almost like a dream, right, for me.

It feels kind of surreal to be at a point

where I'm actually in some of those meetings

and talking about crafting Silver,

like, you know, 3.0 and stuff like that.

I'm still at that point

where I'm just trying to absorb everything.

So I just kind of go to the meetings

and I'm like, okay, like, you know.

But I'm really excited to just be a part

of that whole process.

And another thing I would like to kind of do

that I've been thinking about personally

is just kind of trying to find more bodies of research

that kind of drive some design decisions

that are more linked to accessibility.

You know, there's like, I don't know if you're familiar

with like the Nielsen Norman Group

who does a lot of kind of UX.

They have a lot of UX documentation

and kind of best practices and things like that,

all driven by user research.

I would love to, you know, maybe somehow get more of that,

but focused on accessibility.

'Cause I feel like a lot of times, you know,

when I talk to people about accessibility,

digital accessibility, there's always WCAG,

which of course is the bare minimum that we can do, right?

But we need to go beyond that.

And I feel like the only way we're gonna be able

to go beyond that is to get some solid,

to get user experiences and maybe some research as well.

So I don't know what that looks like,

but that's something that I've been thinking

about a lot lately, is just,

it would be really cool to get some more of that going, so.

- Yeah, no, I completely agree with that.

And sometimes it can be difficult,

you know, nowadays where maybe people aren't able

to share as much as they'd like,

because of, you know, security concerns

within their organizations.

Of course that limits our knowledge base.

But we do have things like the IAAP,

which has pretty good knowledge base.

And just to call that out, we talked a bit before,

you have the two certifications from there as well.

- Yeah, totally.

- And then you have the CPAC and the WAS, right?

- Yeah.

- Well, so, other than that, are there any things

that kind you're really looking forward to

in the immediate future that you want to jump into?

Or is just keeping up with all the many things

that are happening every day?

- Yeah, you know, just keeping up with everything.

I'm continuing to just grow my relationships at work,

but also, like throughout the accessibility community,

which is, I'm excited to do this, as well to do that.

So yeah, I mean, that's really

what I'm just trying to focus on right now.

- Great, well, I wanna thank you for taking the time

to chat with me about this.

And possibly we'll connect up in the real world sometime

at a conference or something like that.