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035 Focused Light- Using Lasers in the Acupuncture Clinic • Jim Sullivan
Episode 356th June 2018 • Qiological Podcast • Michael Max
00:00:00 00:40:35

Shownotes

Pressure, vibration, puncture, and heat, we know there are a variety of ways to stimulate an acupuncture point. 

In this episode we explore the clinical use of light, in the form of low-power lasers. And especially for those of you that don’t really understand electricity, the physics of light, or the difference between an LED and the coherent light of a laser, this conversation will be especially helpful as we go over basics that will help you to better understand these devices and how you can use them in your practice.

Listen in as we learn how to safely use lasers in clinical practice and what kinds of tissues and points that respond to these devices. 

Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Transcripts

Michael Max:

The medicine of east Asia is based on a science that does not

Michael Max:

hold itself separate from the phenomenon that it seeks to understand our

Michael Max:

medicine did not grow out of Petri dish, experimentation, or double blind studies.

Michael Max:

It arose from observing nature and our part in it.

Michael Max:

East Asian medicine.

Michael Max:

From the examination of debt structures, but rather from living systems with their

Michael Max:

complex mutually entangled interactions.

Michael Max:

Welcome to qiological.

Michael Max:

I'm Michael max, the host of this podcast that goes in depth on issues,

Michael Max:

pertinent to practitioners and students.

Michael Max:

Of east Asian medicine, dialogue and discussion have always been elemental to

Michael Max:

Chinese and other east Asian medicines.

Michael Max:

Listening to these conversations with experienced practitioners that go deep

Michael Max:

into how this ancient medicine is alive and unfolding in the modern clinic.

Michael Max:

Hi, everybody.

Michael Max:

Welcome to the show.

Michael Max:

I'm pleased today to have Jim Sullivan with me here at the qiological.

Michael Max:

International headquarters in St.

Michael Max:

Louis, Missouri.

Michael Max:

He is an acupuncturist in the St.

Michael Max:

Louis area as am I.

Michael Max:

And we're getting together this morning to talk about the use of lasers in clinic.

Michael Max:

Now, CIM has been at this acupuncture thing for about 20 years now.

Michael Max:

He spent time in the Northwest where he graduated from nyum.

Michael Max:

He spent some time working in Springfield, Illinois, working in a hostile.

Michael Max:

He's got a background in cranio work, as well as acupuncture and currently

Michael Max:

working in a community acupuncture clinic here in beautiful arch city.

Michael Max:

Welcome to the show.

Jim Sullivan:

Thank you for having me.

Jim Sullivan:

Thank you for having me this morning.

Jim Sullivan:

Yeah, this is

Michael Max:

great.

Michael Max:

And it's nice to be able to do it here at the

Jim Sullivan:

international headquarters.

Jim Sullivan:

It's stellar.

Michael Max:

So today the subject is use of lasers.

Michael Max:

I'm curious to know how you got involved with

Jim Sullivan:

lasers.

Jim Sullivan:

Well, it, it comes down to basically my own curiosity.

Jim Sullivan:

We got a tiny smattering and acupuncture.

Jim Sullivan:

Over the years, I have stumbled across a few people doing them in their

Jim Sullivan:

practices, primarily chiropractors.

Jim Sullivan:

So sometimes it's fun to look over the fence and see what they're up to

Jim Sullivan:

and understanding what I didn't know about them or how I might apply them.

Jim Sullivan:

So my own curiosity, secondly, my own need.

Jim Sullivan:

I get a lot of people that either can't or won't.

Jim Sullivan:

Get acupuncture.

Jim Sullivan:

Does it hurt?

Jim Sullivan:

Are the needles, or sometimes people are just of an age that their skin is so

Jim Sullivan:

crappy that needling wouldn't be a real appropriate for them or the situation.

Jim Sullivan:

I remember Dr.

Jim Sullivan:

Tan said that he used to, when he moved to a new town, he would take a stack of

Jim Sullivan:

his business cards, a small travel kit of needles and go to the nearest happy hour

Jim Sullivan:

and on Friday and ask people who has a.

Jim Sullivan:

And then cure their head.

Jim Sullivan:

Tom would do exactly.

Jim Sullivan:

However, as I started to think about this cleanliness at a bar needling

Jim Sullivan:

at a bar, the liability of needling at a bar that got really complicated,

Jim Sullivan:

where you could do laser in that situation, I'm also did some trainings

Jim Sullivan:

with acupunctures without borders for field use, a laser would be stellar.

Jim Sullivan:

And how many of you have also.

Jim Sullivan:

Found yourself in a situation one, a client is walking out the door

Jim Sullivan:

and said, oh yeah, I didn't tell you about the headache I have.

Jim Sullivan:

So you've got about three minutes to deal with this head.

Jim Sullivan:

That they didn't tell you about in the first place, because you were too

Jim Sullivan:

busy doing what they first told you to do, but you do want to help them.

Jim Sullivan:

And so this would be something you could whip out quickly and easily and

Jim Sullivan:

not have a huge investment in time.

Jim Sullivan:

So that's good in that way.

Jim Sullivan:

And the other one, and I hate to admit it, but how many of you have also

Jim Sullivan:

had people in a hospital setting, a loved one, a friend who you wanted

Jim Sullivan:

to do a little something for.

Jim Sullivan:

To ease their pain and, or calm their mind or whatever, and whipping out needles

Jim Sullivan:

and doing acupuncture just would not be appropriate or that, but you could

Jim Sullivan:

always put a deep liability, right.

Jim Sullivan:

Where you could pull one of these out and do that very quickly and effectively.

Jim Sullivan:

And so curiosity need one of the other things.

Jim Sullivan:

I recently taught a class for the acupuncture association of Missouri

Jim Sullivan:

on this, and I used the term.

Jim Sullivan:

Psyllium towel, which is a wing Chung form of Kung Fu it's the first form.

Jim Sullivan:

And what it really translates to be is a small thought or the little idea form.

Jim Sullivan:

And what it means is in these few little ideas, the entire

Jim Sullivan:

system is laid out to you.

Jim Sullivan:

So whenever I go to a workshop or something, I'm trying to grasp onto the

Jim Sullivan:

one little idea that I can build into a.

Jim Sullivan:

And that's what I try to do.

Jim Sullivan:

And that's kinda what I try to do with, with my knowledge of

Jim Sullivan:

lasers and how I built it up.

Jim Sullivan:

I tried to.

Jim Sullivan:

A few basic concepts to build on that.

Jim Sullivan:

You can move forward into treatment with people without getting

Jim Sullivan:

bogged down with a lot of dogma.

Jim Sullivan:

Let's get into

Michael Max:

some of the nuts and bolts about this.

Michael Max:

One of the big questions that I've got, and I suspect our

Michael Max:

listeners may have as well.

Michael Max:

How is a laser different than a needle in terms of, of how

Michael Max:

it stimulates the channel?

Michael Max:

Can you use it to sedate or to tonify.

Michael Max:

It's just, how do we use light instead

Jim Sullivan:

of only piece of steel?

Jim Sullivan:

Think of the difference between moxibustion maybe, and this is a

Jim Sullivan:

generality, there will be, I've read different things in different books.

Jim Sullivan:

The generality is a needle is good at moving the cheese, unsticking,

Jim Sullivan:

the cheek, creating some more.

Jim Sullivan:

When you put needles into tissues, you usually putting

Jim Sullivan:

them down to the fascial layer.

Jim Sullivan:

And when you excite the needle, some people believe you are putting pressure

Jim Sullivan:

on the fascia, which has made out of collagen and elastin and mineral salts.

Jim Sullivan:

And when you put pressure on mineral salts, you get piezoelectric fields.

Jim Sullivan:

Yeah.

Jim Sullivan:

It's pretty cool.

Jim Sullivan:

Piezo electric fields are, are like what makes your quartz crystal watch?

Jim Sullivan:

So now you are creating a spark that has a preference.

Jim Sullivan:

It's going to follow the fascial planes or the meridians and send

Jim Sullivan:

a message deeper into the body.

Jim Sullivan:

Okay.

Jim Sullivan:

These conduits, the meridians of the body, which are facially related

Jim Sullivan:

that have a tendency to conduct electricity, also conduct light energy.

Jim Sullivan:

So now you have a system of pathways that you can do that.

Jim Sullivan:

Now.

Jim Sullivan:

I think that the, the needles move.

Jim Sullivan:

She in a more strong fashion, but sometimes when there's a lot of

Jim Sullivan:

blockages, it's like sending a freight train and then hitting a barrier.

Jim Sullivan:

It just stops.

Jim Sullivan:

Whereas, if you can just make the cheese gently flow around the obstacle, as

Jim Sullivan:

time goes on, it breaks up the obstacle.

Jim Sullivan:

And that's how I see laser light working much gentle or more on the, on

Jim Sullivan:

the terms of, of, of, um, moxibustion kinda like, uh, on, on a box.

Jim Sullivan:

Is it on a buggy?

Jim Sullivan:

Is that, is

Michael Max:

that where they do the little, like tapping

Michael Max:

with pieces of incense,

Jim Sullivan:

incense on the, on the gene?

Jim Sullivan:

Well points.

Jim Sullivan:

And one of the things that does is it clears the entire channel, but very

Jim Sullivan:

gently, it's like a nice gentle push rather than a shelf where the needle might

Jim Sullivan:

be a little bit more of a shove needles.

Jim Sullivan:

Wandering Wells tend to be kind of a shove.

Jim Sullivan:

They tend to be a little bit of a shove where I think you could get away with.

Jim Sullivan:

Incense on the points.

Jim Sullivan:

But for example, what that does is that gently clears the entire channel.

Jim Sullivan:

I will also say that the laser probably is a little bit more young energy where

Jim Sullivan:

maybe the needle affects a little bit more of the yin energy of the channel

Michael Max:

that would make sense, given the marriage the

Michael Max:

nature of light being young.

Michael Max:

Exactly.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

So in terms of actually working with or stimulating the

Michael Max:

meridians is would you use laser.

Michael Max:

Differently than you would

Jim Sullivan:

use an acupuncture.

Jim Sullivan:

Absolutely.

Jim Sullivan:

And here's something to think about in the chiropractic slash physical therapy arena.

Jim Sullivan:

Some of the machines can be $5,000, you know, there's several thousand dollars.

Jim Sullivan:

And the reason why is that the amount of power based on their style of

Jim Sullivan:

treatment has to be tremendously high.

Jim Sullivan:

They're trying, for example, if your low back hurts, they're going

Jim Sullivan:

to blanket the entire low back.

Jim Sullivan:

So the head on these machines is about a four-inch square and to

Jim Sullivan:

move a four inch square of energy.

Jim Sullivan:

That way takes a lot.

Jim Sullivan:

And that's going to take a big machine to do it.

Jim Sullivan:

If your knee hurts, you irradiate the knee.

Jim Sullivan:

If your back hurts your radiate, the back.

Jim Sullivan:

If your shoulder hurts, you irradiate the shoulder and that's the level

Jim Sullivan:

of thought that goes into it.

Jim Sullivan:

And here's the interesting thing.

Jim Sullivan:

The part that I wanted to get across in the class that I taught is that

Jim Sullivan:

we as acupuncturists have a secret, we know how to open the gate.

Jim Sullivan:

We know how to enter into the body by way of the Meridian system and points.

Jim Sullivan:

We not a precision with personal vision, not a sledgehammer.

Jim Sullivan:

So if we can persistently move into the Meridian system, we can have

Jim Sullivan:

effect at other places in the body.

Jim Sullivan:

The thicker, the tissue is the more laser light you need.

Jim Sullivan:

For example, on your back, the tissue is fairly heavy and thick.

Jim Sullivan:

So you need a lot of power to get through that.

Jim Sullivan:

But for example, if you want to do a hand point, a DJing Wellpoint, so Jean well

Jim Sullivan:

points, classically DJing, well points are used to stimulate the opposite end of the.

Jim Sullivan:

That is classically how they're used.

Jim Sullivan:

However, for example, the gene, well points on the hand, there was a

Jim Sullivan:

research study and we have that here.

Jim Sullivan:

Well, in a nutshell, I don't have that right here in, in, you know, we can put

Michael Max:

that kind of stuff on show

Jim Sullivan:

notes page.

Jim Sullivan:

Okay.

Jim Sullivan:

Um, in a nutshell, um, they did a study on neuropathy of the hand.

Jim Sullivan:

And carpal tunnel pain and dysfunction.

Jim Sullivan:

And what they found is by applying laser light to the DJing well points,

Jim Sullivan:

they got a tremendous amount of relief for the hand that lets me know that

Jim Sullivan:

it doesn't necessarily always have to affect the opposite end of the channel.

Jim Sullivan:

That is one thing it does do, but what it really appears to do is

Jim Sullivan:

clear the whole channel gently, like you were talking about exactly.

Jim Sullivan:

That's the magic, because if you.

Jim Sullivan:

Apply to Jean well points, knowing that you're going to clear an

Jim Sullivan:

entire channel slowly and gently.

Jim Sullivan:

You don't need as much power because you're going to use the acupuncture

Jim Sullivan:

points in the thin skin of the DJing.

Jim Sullivan:

Well points to access the entire body and the entire Meridian.

Jim Sullivan:

That's the magic.

Jim Sullivan:

So

Michael Max:

you don't need a big fancy laser.

Jim Sullivan:

You don't.

Jim Sullivan:

My suggestion are hand-held lasers and that's what I'm primarily talking about.

Jim Sullivan:

Costing about a hundred dollars.

Jim Sullivan:

Um, I like OMS, which is Oriental medical supply, but there's other

Jim Sullivan:

companies you want somewhere in the range of 670 nanometers of wavelength,

Jim Sullivan:

about five milli Watts of power.

Jim Sullivan:

The head on these things is about eight millimeters compared to four inches

Jim Sullivan:

square where their most appropriate.

Jim Sullivan:

Would be, for example, the DJing well points or maybe even, um, Korean hand

Jim Sullivan:

therapy, um, maybe some of the Dr.

Jim Sullivan:

Tan points,

Michael Max:

probably the dome points.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

I was thinking that could be really helpful there

Jim Sullivan:

with the power that I just described about the five milliwatt

Jim Sullivan:

power, um, hand points you would hold those for about 30 to 90 seconds.

Jim Sullivan:

That's not bad.

Jim Sullivan:

Another place where the skin is very thin, our ear points, you could do ear points.

Jim Sullivan:

You could do the, not a protocol, which not only is good for addictions.

Jim Sullivan:

It's good for stressing anxiety.

Jim Sullivan:

Um, quite a few things like that.

Jim Sullivan:

It's also, if you look at it, in terms of five element is a very well

Jim Sullivan:

balanced five element treatment.

Jim Sullivan:

That's why, um, acupuncturists without borders, that is one of the.

Jim Sullivan:

Go-to techniques.

Jim Sullivan:

Um, they primarily do that in the field first, and then they might find

Jim Sullivan:

tune it with specific pain points.

Jim Sullivan:

But a lot of times, if you just bring general pain down overall, you get

Jim Sullivan:

the specific pain with it so much.

Jim Sullivan:

So that for example, battlefield acupuncture as done by the air force

Jim Sullivan:

is kind of a generic treatment.

Jim Sullivan:

However, that generic treatment covers a wide range.

Jim Sullivan:

It seems to be able to help destroy.

Jim Sullivan:

The link between the event, the negative traumatic event, and

Jim Sullivan:

current time it breaks that bridge.

Jim Sullivan:

And that's a real issue in post-traumatic stress.

Jim Sullivan:

It also seems to reduce pain, whatever pain the person is having by about 70%

Jim Sullivan:

and they have done a recent and remarkable

Michael Max:

I've I've I've used it myself.

Michael Max:

My only issue with the battlefield acupuncture is there.

Michael Max:

You're putting these studs in the.

Michael Max:

It's really not pleasant for most people.

Michael Max:

That is true, even though it helps with the pain

Jim Sullivan:

it's you can needle those points and also you can

Jim Sullivan:

laser those points, laser them.

Jim Sullivan:

I like the idea of lasering them.

Jim Sullivan:

And if you lasered points, I'm looking at the range and I did

Jim Sullivan:

some calculations to get to.

Jim Sullivan:

That are absolutely boring, is looking at the density of tissue and the

Jim Sullivan:

width of the head and the duration of time to get the amount of jewels

Jim Sullivan:

that are therapeutically beneficial.

Jim Sullivan:

Instead, it's a lot easier to think of hand points, 30 to 90 seconds, ear

Jim Sullivan:

points, 30 to 45 seconds per point.

Jim Sullivan:

So that's the magic place is 30 to 45 seconds per point.

Jim Sullivan:

So you could do a 10, 10, um, uh, needle protocol and under 10 minutes.

Jim Sullivan:

So now you could do battlefield acupuncture in less than 10 minutes.

Michael Max:

You could do battlefield acupuncture and listen three or

Michael Max:

four minutes, actually exact what?

Michael Max:

The main points that they use.

Michael Max:

I'm just thinking in my own

Jim Sullivan:

practice needing study.

Jim Sullivan:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

I mean, someone comes in if they've got an acute pain

Michael Max:

going on, why not start with that and just see how much it knocks it down.

Michael Max:

That would be a great little,

Jim Sullivan:

the air clinical study does that.

Jim Sullivan:

And they have nurses.

Jim Sullivan:

Who put in battlefield acupuncture, let's say you have

Jim Sullivan:

low back pain and some stress.

Jim Sullivan:

They'll do that a few times.

Jim Sullivan:

If that doesn't do it, you're kicked up to the doctor who actually

Jim Sullivan:

does more full body acupuncture.

Jim Sullivan:

They're kind of trained in the, um, I believe it was Berkeley has.

Jim Sullivan:

Hunter or 300 hour acupuncture program.

Jim Sullivan:

Um, the medical acupuncture program at Berkeley

Michael Max:

says, I think it started out at UCLA.

Michael Max:

It's a

Jim Sullivan:

UCLA, I'm sorry at UCLA.

Jim Sullivan:

Um, and it's a 300 hour acupuncture program and they have sent there.

Jim Sullivan:

The air force has sent their doctors to that.

Jim Sullivan:

And so it's a great program.

Jim Sullivan:

If the technician can't handle it with a general treatment, then it

Jim Sullivan:

is kicked up, but they go through the general technician first to.

Jim Sullivan:

Stream down the amount of people actually seeing the doctors they're

Jim Sullivan:

trying to be more effective.

Jim Sullivan:

Yeah.

Jim Sullivan:

So if they can cure your low back pain with battlefield acupuncture,

Jim Sullivan:

you never need to see the doctor and boom, you're happy.

Jim Sullivan:

They're happy.

Jim Sullivan:

Everything's good.

Jim Sullivan:

If it needs to be kicked up a notch, they do have someone

Jim Sullivan:

there to kick it up a notch.

Michael Max:

To know if you're using this in your, since you do

Michael Max:

community acupuncture these days, or that's a piece of your practice

Jim Sullivan:

piece, it's a piece.

Michael Max:

So are you using the

Jim Sullivan:

laser in there?

Jim Sullivan:

I am.

Jim Sullivan:

And it's very interesting.

Jim Sullivan:

Maybe I'll do some body points for something else.

Jim Sullivan:

And then, like I said, one cleanup issues or just little dangly, straggly issues.

Jim Sullivan:

Sometimes someone comes in that is just so stressed out.

Jim Sullivan:

That's a good application.

Jim Sullivan:

Maybe I'll do the battlefield stuff first and then just put it in a few points and

Jim Sullivan:

let them bake, you know, a little bit.

Jim Sullivan:

And in that community style setting that works, I could spend five minutes

Jim Sullivan:

on, on laser points, put a quick formula of points in, you know, a Dr.

Jim Sullivan:

Tan Shen disturbance treatment or something, and then

Jim Sullivan:

move on to someone else.

Jim Sullivan:

The time in the community setting is always important.

Jim Sullivan:

It's crucial.

Jim Sullivan:

And you have to kind of, I hate to say cookbook, but you, you need to

Jim Sullivan:

have some base strategies in your back pocket to whip out quickly.

Jim Sullivan:

One of the other things that I do on the hand points, as I do some Korean hand

Jim Sullivan:

therapy at a correspondence level that was developed by a Korean gentleman, um,

Jim Sullivan:

in the seventies, And it was actually developed into an entire system that

Jim Sullivan:

parallels in complexity, some of the Japanese systems there's tonification

Jim Sullivan:

and sedation and five element theory, but at a very base level is what they

Jim Sullivan:

call correspondence level all 365 points.

Jim Sullivan:

Basically 14 meridians are on your hands.

Jim Sullivan:

The center line, starting on the Palm surface of the hand,

Jim Sullivan:

represents the front of the body.

Jim Sullivan:

The back of the hand represents the back of the body.

Jim Sullivan:

The Ming middle finger represents the face area on the pad of the finger, going

Jim Sullivan:

down to the neck, being the first crease in the, in the knuckle there and moving

Jim Sullivan:

on down into the torso of the body.

Jim Sullivan:

Matter of fact, it's kind of interesting that in the Korean

Jim Sullivan:

system, oh, approximately.

Jim Sullivan:

They use for genital pain and that area a point around pericardium seven and Dr.

Jim Sullivan:

Tan has always used that for genital pain, um, menstrual cramps, all those things.

Jim Sullivan:

So there's a parallel system here.

Jim Sullivan:

Maybe different systems have different dogmas, but still

Jim Sullivan:

there's something going on here.

Jim Sullivan:

Um, the back of the hand, Dr.

Jim Sullivan:

Tan uses the first knuckle on the middle finger for neuro problem.

Jim Sullivan:

So do the Koreans.

Jim Sullivan:

So there's overlaps in the S the theories and the dog well might be different,

Jim Sullivan:

but the application is very similar.

Jim Sullivan:

Again, the skin on the hand is thin enough.

Jim Sullivan:

You can do laser treatments on those and get effect, right?

Jim Sullivan:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

So does this mean that when you're using lasers in the way

Michael Max:

that we're talking about it today, these small handheld ones, not these big ones

Michael Max:

that you're basically treating Hans.

Michael Max:

Yours, you don't, you wouldn't use it on like a large intestine, 11.

Michael Max:

You wouldn't use it on a gallbladder.

Jim Sullivan:

No, uh, you know, gallbladder 21, everybody hurts

Jim Sullivan:

there, but it doesn't have a horsepower to get through the meat.

Jim Sullivan:

It just does it.

Jim Sullivan:

And so people will use it on that and say, oh, these things don't work.

Jim Sullivan:

How could this work, this doesn't work and they put it in their back box of junk

Jim Sullivan:

and never doesn't see the light of day.

Jim Sullivan:

Again, it's a difference between a broad sword and a fencing foil.

Jim Sullivan:

You ha you change the style of practice to fit the two.

Jim Sullivan:

You can't expect two tools to work the same.

Jim Sullivan:

So maybe to release this area, I

Michael Max:

do all bladder 21.

Michael Max:

You'd have

Jim Sullivan:

to, yeah.

Jim Sullivan:

I could get fancy and use liver channel, which is a balancing point.

Jim Sullivan:

Um, liver three liver, four or five, something like that, um,

Jim Sullivan:

to get a different response.

Jim Sullivan:

Yeah.

Jim Sullivan:

So that's how I might use.

Jim Sullivan:

And the biggest thing about this class that I want to say is get the,

Jim Sullivan:

you know, if you have one it's one of these little ones, get it out of the

Jim Sullivan:

drawer and start to think back to that.

Jim Sullivan:

These are ideas that I came up with using it on DJing.

Jim Sullivan:

Well points, Korean hand therapy points, um, ear points, maybe even

Jim Sullivan:

some of the facial scalp points.

Jim Sullivan:

The th the skin is thin enough.

Jim Sullivan:

You can activate, there are other ideas.

Jim Sullivan:

This is the psyllium tower aspect of this, the little thought, the little idea

Jim Sullivan:

that plants a seed for the big thought.

Jim Sullivan:

Maybe you come up with totally different strategies, but the thing that's going

Jim Sullivan:

to remain the same as you're going to pick thin skin spots, because you

Jim Sullivan:

don't have a lot of horsepower, right?

Jim Sullivan:

You can use acupuncture, precision versus Western medicine, sledgehammer.

Michael Max:

If you did want to use lasers on other parts of the body, you'd

Michael Max:

have to, you'd have to gear up for it basically and get one of these stronger.

Jim Sullivan:

Absolutely.

Jim Sullivan:

One of the guys at the clinic had a thing, a, probably about a foot long and

Jim Sullivan:

about, oh, I don't know that big around.

Jim Sullivan:

It sounds like about the size of a lightsaber.

Jim Sullivan:

Yeah, small lightsaber, but he took it and he put it on his piece of

Jim Sullivan:

paper and burnt a hole in the paint.

Jim Sullivan:

And I was like, that might be a little stronger than what we're thinking here.

Michael Max:

This, this brings up another question of terms that I've

Michael Max:

heard about lasers, that you've got hot lasers and cold laser.

Jim Sullivan:

That is interesting.

Jim Sullivan:

It has to do again with horsepower, for example, class one lasers.

Jim Sullivan:

You'll, you'll have those in, in like your laser printer in your office,

Jim Sullivan:

some of the equipment that you use to turn things on and off, uh, at

Jim Sullivan:

home, those are class one lasers.

Jim Sullivan:

Those are about one milli watt or.

Jim Sullivan:

Not a lot of horsepower.

Jim Sullivan:

You don't need any goggles.

Jim Sullivan:

You don't need any protective equipment.

Jim Sullivan:

Class, two lasers are considered safe for momentary viewing.

Jim Sullivan:

So you can let it pass by your eye.

Jim Sullivan:

I wouldn't stare at it all day, but if it passes by your eye, you don't need

Jim Sullivan:

any goggles or anything like that.

Jim Sullivan:

That's a class two.

Jim Sullivan:

The, the ones we're primarily talking about our class three lasers,

Jim Sullivan:

they're up to five milli Watts.

Jim Sullivan:

Um, you don't need any goggles when you use them.

Jim Sullivan:

Things like that would not want to look at it.

Jim Sullivan:

You wouldn't stare at it.

Jim Sullivan:

If you transitory passed it by your fine transitory, that's a class three a.

Jim Sullivan:

Now the ones that we're talking about, the little pocket things, they're usually

Jim Sullivan:

a class three B, they are 5 million.

Jim Sullivan:

Up to 500, Billy Watts, protective goggles or glasses are recommended

Jim Sullivan:

and you wouldn't want to look at this long-term directly.

Jim Sullivan:

A brief pass would be okay.

Jim Sullivan:

Then we move into the hotter lasers.

Jim Sullivan:

Uh, class four lasers are 500 milli Watts are more, that

Jim Sullivan:

would be considered a hot laser.

Jim Sullivan:

You see that in surgery, you see that in industry, you know, once you're

Jim Sullivan:

above 500, it doesn't have an into it.

Jim Sullivan:

It's everything.

Jim Sullivan:

500 milli Watts to the James Bond.

Jim Sullivan:

One that's melting the planet.

Jim Sullivan:

It's anything higher than.

Jim Sullivan:

And those would be hot layers and those definitely require equipment.

Jim Sullivan:

And I will say that the ones that you typically see like in the chiropractor's

Jim Sullivan:

office are high end class B lasers.

Jim Sullivan:

Um, they are pretty hot, but not considered hot, but you do wear

Jim Sullivan:

goggles, both patient and client.

Jim Sullivan:

And that gets a little bit.

Jim Sullivan:

We in turn are, are looking at it and we're putting it almost direct.

Jim Sullivan:

If not directly on the skin, within a millimeter or two of

Jim Sullivan:

the skin, you don't actually

Michael Max:

contact the skin with the laser.

Michael Max:

You just hold

Jim Sullivan:

it above.

Jim Sullivan:

You don't want to put the diode on the skin.

Jim Sullivan:

So what they've done is they've recessed the diode, a few millimeters.

Jim Sullivan:

So by pressing the laser against the skin, there's still a millimeter or so reset.

Jim Sullivan:

And you can put it on there in the shroud will protect you from any visible light.

Jim Sullivan:

You know, I'll sit on the couch and give myself treatments.

Jim Sullivan:

You know, I'm

Michael Max:

curious to know how you would recommend folks go about finding

Michael Max:

out more information about the use of lasers in a way that's not thinly

Michael Max:

disguised marketing because I've gone and given it a bit of a look like

Michael Max:

most of it, it really does it it's.

Michael Max:

It just seems more like marketing.

Michael Max:

Did anything else?

Jim Sullivan:

It is.

Jim Sullivan:

Um, if you want some understanding of what lasers are, what they

Jim Sullivan:

do, a book called light and laser therapy, clinical procedures.

Jim Sullivan:

There's a fifth edition by a Curtis Turchin who is a chiropractor.

Jim Sullivan:

I'll put that on the show notes, put that on the show notes page.

Jim Sullivan:

It describes things like, what is.

Jim Sullivan:

How do you calculate jewels?

Jim Sullivan:

Things like that.

Jim Sullivan:

This has a wonderful section on classes of labor lasers, why thicker

Jim Sullivan:

skin and how to paint with the laser, things like that, where it breaks

Jim Sullivan:

down is it doesn't talk too much about acupuncture points, et cetera.

Jim Sullivan:

That gives you a wonderful background, but when it comes to treatment

Jim Sullivan:

strategies, They're going with the Lark.

Jim Sullivan:

If the shoulder hurts, do it kind of approach.

Jim Sullivan:

So that's the good side, the bad side with this book.

Jim Sullivan:

The good side is it gives lots of theory and understanding about the basics of

Jim Sullivan:

wavelengths and jewels and all of them.

Jim Sullivan:

The application of the treatment, I'm going to say that's where

Jim Sullivan:

you have to start using your acupuncture knowledge and that's

Michael Max:

what we're trained to do.

Michael Max:

Anyway.

Michael Max:

That's

Jim Sullivan:

what we're trained to do a second book that is a little bit

Jim Sullivan:

more geared towards the lower power is laser acupuncture and introductory text.

Jim Sullivan:

And it has tons and tons of research projects that have been done.

Jim Sullivan:

It gives the application and how they did it and things like that.

Jim Sullivan:

And then the outcomes who's doing the research on this stuff.

Jim Sullivan:

A lot of Europeans, there are things going on in the United States.

Jim Sullivan:

Like the one that I referenced towards the carpal tunnel and

Jim Sullivan:

neuropathy was done, like, uh, the journal of physical medicine.

Jim Sullivan:

So a very Western thing, and they were applying it with small handheld laser.

Jim Sullivan:

Using acupuncture points to enter it.

Jim Sullivan:

And those were the results they got.

Jim Sullivan:

And so this book does have some, um, uh, United States, but it also, it seems

Jim Sullivan:

like the Europeans are just a little bit ahead of us as lasers develop.

Jim Sullivan:

The initial research was that it was therapeutic took place in, in Russia or

Jim Sullivan:

other Soviet bloc countries and China.

Jim Sullivan:

They seem to share research back and forth.

Jim Sullivan:

Then it spread into Europe from Russia and eventually jumped into the United.

Jim Sullivan:

We're kind of behind the power curve and application, you know, it seems

Michael Max:

like the Russians have done a lot of innovative stuff

Michael Max:

with, for lack of a better term.

Michael Max:

And I hate this term, but I'm going to use it anyway.

Michael Max:

I'm using air quotes, energy medicine.

Michael Max:

They seem to look at alternatives, uh, and consider it more

Michael Max:

than we do here in the west.

Michael Max:

I

Jim Sullivan:

think the Russians definitely do some of it is a

Jim Sullivan:

Gemeinschaft or a thought process.

Jim Sullivan:

Their own mindset allows them that.

Jim Sullivan:

Some of our own biases and backgrounds don't even allow us to

Jim Sullivan:

think or do the research in that.

Jim Sullivan:

And they're doing the research and they're exploring new options.

Jim Sullivan:

They have a unique segue between the Asian thought model and European thought they

Jim Sullivan:

are a segue back and forth, and they've had people passing through their country

Jim Sullivan:

and on their borders and they get to share these ideas and they seem to ride the

Jim Sullivan:

rail in both worlds where we are clearly.

Jim Sullivan:

You know, our thought processes are different.

Jim Sullivan:

Step one, step two, step three, linear.

Jim Sullivan:

They think in circles,

Michael Max:

which is the way we think in Chinese medicine and Chinese

Jim Sullivan:

medicine works.

Jim Sullivan:

Exactly.

Jim Sullivan:

And systems.

Michael Max:

Anything else that you think our listeners would

Michael Max:

benefit from in terms of thinking about how to start using lasers or

Michael Max:

things that they should know about?

Michael Max:

Uh, bringing lasers into their practice.

Jim Sullivan:

I wouldn't invest heavily in cost.

Jim Sullivan:

I would a hundred bucks to pick up one of these books, but also use

Jim Sullivan:

what you know of acupuncture theory.

Jim Sullivan:

Um, I think I've already, I want to say it one more time.

Jim Sullivan:

Your points are 30 to 45 seconds, hand points, 60 to

Jim Sullivan:

90 seconds with a small laser.

Jim Sullivan:

Some of the body points that are still thin skin that might be like

Jim Sullivan:

UV to, um, two to three minutes.

Jim Sullivan:

And you be too, can be used to influence back pain since it's

Jim Sullivan:

unblocking the entire channel.

Jim Sullivan:

Maybe you be 67, something like that anyway, but play with

Jim Sullivan:

them and see it as options.

Jim Sullivan:

Don't, don't allow just the way you've been doing things to dictate

Jim Sullivan:

how you will do things in the future.

Jim Sullivan:

Bring in this little baby thought and maybe it'll really flourish.

Jim Sullivan:

Maybe you'll just use this on friends and family.

Jim Sullivan:

Maybe you'll make this as part of a formal.

Jim Sullivan:

Maybe you don't, I don't know where it could go for you.

Jim Sullivan:

Yeah, well, it certainly

Michael Max:

is worth experimenting and put or bucks to do your own experiment is.

Michael Max:

Exactly.

Michael Max:

That's not much of a barrier to

Jim Sullivan:

entry.

Jim Sullivan:

I will say that when I first read laser acupuncture, an introductory text, they,

Jim Sullivan:

they had several forms to fill out, to send to the FDA laser department.

Jim Sullivan:

And at the very, very last out of this collection of forms.

Jim Sullivan:

Send them in for every client.

Jim Sullivan:

You see, they said, this is recommended and it has no regulatory

Jim Sullivan:

mandate mandate to do this.

Jim Sullivan:

So with the light, small lasers, you have no obligation to do

Jim Sullivan:

any of that paperwork stuff.

Jim Sullivan:

So don't let that throw you off track.

Jim Sullivan:

We're free to experiment or free to experiment with lasers of this string.

Michael Max:

You know, it's interesting.

Michael Max:

I've got a number of patients.

Michael Max:

Who take their critters to see some sort of alternative practitioner and

Michael Max:

sometimes they'll do acupuncture, but I've had a number of patients

Michael Max:

who get their animals lasered.

Michael Max:

It seems.

Michael Max:

Common room veterinarian world these days.

Jim Sullivan:

It does.

Jim Sullivan:

Now I would guess that they're using more of a physical therapy style laser.

Jim Sullivan:

Now there is research that shows that, you know, a four-inch head with lots of

Jim Sullivan:

power over a hip joint does increase.

Jim Sullivan:

Circulation does take pain away, all those things.

Jim Sullivan:

They use it in athletic sports medicine all the time.

Jim Sullivan:

So there is value there, but is it practical for us to apply it that way?

Jim Sullivan:

Maybe not.

Jim Sullivan:

Plus we have some added knowledge that they don't.

Jim Sullivan:

It used to be that you could do acupuncture on animals.

Jim Sullivan:

Most of those laws, as an acupuncturist with the guidance of a veterinarian,

Jim Sullivan:

most of all states have changed their laws to stating that you

Jim Sullivan:

have to be a veterinarian, but in the day I have done some animals.

Michael Max:

When I was in acupuncture school, I used to acupuncture my cat.

Michael Max:

And the curious thing about that cat was she's a very nice cat, but she would

Michael Max:

never sit on your lap for more than five.

Michael Max:

Was she had an acupuncture needle in her and then she calmed

Jim Sullivan:

down and then she calmed down, well, I will share a story with you.

Jim Sullivan:

I had a small practice in Tacoma, Washington, and it was kind of a

Jim Sullivan:

horse shoe shape, building complex.

Jim Sullivan:

I got there early.

Jim Sullivan:

I walked out, I flipped my closed open sign and there's this really large

Jim Sullivan:

Rottweiler walking around out there.

Jim Sullivan:

And I wasn't afraid of him, but I was worried that he was scared clients off.

Jim Sullivan:

So I went out and I talked to him for a little bit and he seemed.

Jim Sullivan:

I also noticed the, had a little limp.

Jim Sullivan:

I went in, I called animal control.

Jim Sullivan:

They said they may get to him today, or they may not pick him up today.

Jim Sullivan:

And I said, well, okay.

Jim Sullivan:

So I went back out and talked to him some more and, and I, my

Jim Sullivan:

first client of the day canceled.

Jim Sullivan:

So I walked him in my office.

Jim Sullivan:

I put him, I'd drop my table down.

Jim Sullivan:

I had a hydraulic table and I dropped it down and I put him on it.

Jim Sullivan:

I put a heat lamp on his hip.

Jim Sullivan:

He liked that.

Jim Sullivan:

So I did some new.

Jim Sullivan:

He laid there.

Jim Sullivan:

Just fine for it.

Jim Sullivan:

I took the needles out.

Jim Sullivan:

I took him out.

Jim Sullivan:

He didn't limp anymore.

Jim Sullivan:

He walked around, you know, and I put him in a back room waiting

Jim Sullivan:

for animal control to came.

Jim Sullivan:

They finally came.

Jim Sullivan:

I gave it to him.

Jim Sullivan:

I said, you know what?

Jim Sullivan:

This was a good dog.

Jim Sullivan:

Don't destroy him or anything.

Jim Sullivan:

If you have trouble, call me, I will find a home or I'll take him myself

Jim Sullivan:

because he's very, well-behaved.

Jim Sullivan:

They didn't call me back later that day, I called them back and he said, oh

Jim Sullivan:

no, his daddy came for him right away.

Jim Sullivan:

And I thought, if that dog could talk, I got out for the day, I

Jim Sullivan:

got an acupuncture treatment and I got to go to jail all in one day.

Jim Sullivan:

The wisdom of animals.

Jim Sullivan:

Exactly.

Jim Sullivan:

You had a big adventure as a

Michael Max:

great, any final thoughts that you'd like to

Michael Max:

share with our listeners before we wind this town today, just

Jim Sullivan:

that I think is acupuncture.

Jim Sullivan:

Again, don't limit yourself to what you have always done.

Jim Sullivan:

Our main thought is if there's any potential to help a patient

Jim Sullivan:

or a client, what can I bring out of the toolbox to do so?

Jim Sullivan:

Even if it's something as small as this, that just gives them a little

Jim Sullivan:

temporary relief for a little bit, that's, that's a movement in the

Jim Sullivan:

right direction that you can build.

Michael Max:

Yep.

Michael Max:

Great, Jim, thanks for being with us today.

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