Host Andrew Brown sits down with Jamie McMillan, an ironworker and advocate for skilled trades, to discuss her inspiring journey in a male-dominated field.

Jamie shares her insights on breaking stereotypes, the importance of hands-on skills, and the role of mentorship and social media in empowering future tradespeople. They also explore how tech integration and education can address the skilled trades shortage and inspire the next generation to consider fulfilling careers in the trades.

IN THIS EPISODE:

(00:03:15) Social Media Impact on Trades: Elevating the visibility of tradespeople and inspiring the next generation.

(00:12:45) The Importance of Role Models and Mentorship in Trades: Jamie’s experience and the support she received.

(00:22:30) Concept of Being 'Self-Made': Importance of guidance and support from others.

(00:34:00) Mentoring Younger Generations: Reciprocal learning and the influence of mentorship.

(00:46:10) Challenges in Asking for Help: Personal struggles and the significance of reaching out.

(00:58:20) ADHD and Professional Life: Jamie’s journey, misdiagnoses, and managing ADHD effectively.

Key Takeaways:

• Prove Your Worth: Breaking stereotypes requires hard work and proving your abilities in the trades.
• Mentorship Matters: Seek and provide mentorship to foster growth and confidence in the skilled trades community.
• Skilled Trades Education: Practical, hands-on education and exposure to trades can change the trajectory of a student’s life.
• Adapt and Advocate: Embrace tech integration while advocating for the preservation of hands-on skills.

ABOUT THE GUEST:

Jamie McMillan is a trailblazing ironworker and co-founder of Kick Ass Careers, an organization dedicated to promoting skilled trades to students across North America. With over 21 years of experience, Jamie is a passionate advocate for women in the trades, using her platform to inspire the next generation and redefine perceptions of the industry.

RESOURCE LINKS

• Website: https://madeinthetrade.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-mcmillan-90010397/
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Building2Resilience

Keywords:

social media impact on trades, Jamie McMillan, role models in trades, tradeswomen mentorship, ADHD and Skilled Trades, Skilled Trades Career, Trade Skills Education, Tech Integration in Trades, Children's Books on Trades, Trades Movement Newsletter, Skilled Trades, Trades Industry, Andrew Brown, Toolfetch, Carpentry, HVAC, Electricians, Plumbers, Millwrights, Construction, Craftsmanship, Problem-solving, Creativity, Tradespeople, Advocacy, Trades Careers, Industry Experts, Contractors, Education, Skilled Trades Advisory Council (STAC).

So the first time I walked on a job site, I remember I was accepted by some other. People looked at me with skepticism. They don't know why the woman's there. There used to be a lot of rumors that women were just in the trades looking for a rich man or that, you know, we were in the trade for the wrong reasons. But for the most part, I found that if you just prove yourself, if you go to work and you work hard and you prove yourself, you will be accepted.

Hi, I'm Andrew Brown. You're listening to the Law, star of the Skilled Trades Podcast, a show that shines the spotlight on careers in the skilled trades that are high paying, honorable, rewarding and fulfilling. The trades are the backbone of the economy that keep us running. And without them, our world would cease to exist. Today we have a special guest, Jamie McMillan from Made in the Trades. Welcome, Jamie, finally, to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a while. A little bit in the making here.

I'm glad to have you here. I was watching this TikTok video of an iron worker climbing steel beams, and get this, with no harness. It was like he was an athlete and it was unbelievable. I think it was shot in, like, the mid-80s. And I was watching him, I was like, wow, you have to be, I guess, in good shape to be an iron worker. And you being an iron worker, really, what kind of shape do you have to be to climb those steel beams and to get up there?

Well, there's a lot of different facets of iron working. And not everybody does the structural beam climbing. There's maintenance, which I've done a lot of maintenance. I haven't done a lot of the structural, but structural is definitely a physical job. We don't do as much climbing around on the steel as they used to do back then, especially without safety harnesses now. But, yeah, the physical aspect of the job, the climbing, it's almost like you're an acrobat. You're balancing on beams, you're climbing up the steel. You have to have a lot of upper body strength and agility.

Yeah, it's a pretty good career for people that do structural. They are fit, I guess.

How do you get fit for that? Because there's one thing, obviously, working out at a gym, but you could be climbing most of the day. I mean, that is. And you make one false step, obviously you have a safety harness. And in this example, it was probably very extreme. He was kind of showing off, in a sense. Should have had a harness on. But one Misstep or if you're not looking at the beams coming over and you're trying to do a connection and it, you know, catches you. There's a lot of things going on that you have to be aware of during the day.

Safety is very important. So being safe on the job site. I remember when I first started in the trades and I would walk through a mill and I'd be an apprentice and I didn't, you know, notice everything yet because I didn't understand my environment. And then one day this iron worker was talking to me and he says, jamie, you really need to develop your spider senses. And I never thought of that, but yeah, you have to be aware of what's going on around you all the time. So you have to come to work with a clear mind and a good understanding. It's not a place where you want to come to work hungover or, you know, psychologically involved with something else in your head. And you're not paying attention to your surroundings or what you're doing because you're literally there working in an environment that's so fast paced and so changing, that if you're not paying attention, you can get swiped off, your partner can get injured.

So we always have to remain hyper vigilant to safety and have each other's backs in the trade. But as for getting to the point of being physically fit enough to be in the trade, a lot of people, when you start an apprenticeship, you get really fit doing your apprenticeship. I mean, when I started in the trade, I got fit really fast because you're working, you're climbing stairs, you're climbing steel, you're moving around in confined spaces and you just get fit naturally. So it's not like something that you have to really work up to. If you're in the trade and you're already fit enough, that's awesome. But you're gonna get fit in the trade anyways.

Especially if you're climbing all day. It's certainly not easy. I remember the image, it was taking place in like the 1930s or 1940s where you see like either the iron workers, they're sitting on a steel beam. Oh, you have that. Okay. For the people that can't see it because it's on audio. It's an old picture that Jamie just showed ironworkers kind of just sitting there, eating lunch with no harness and just kind of hanging out. And I just was always in hot.

There's 11. And that is such a famous picture. So that's actually in New York City at the Rockefeller Center. That's where that picture was taken. I've heard rumors that it is real ironworkers. I've also heard rumors that it was acrobats and actors. I'm not sure there are ironworkers who will tell you that they know or they're the great grandfather of somebody in the ironworker trade. All I know is whoever it was up there, it's a pretty crazy picture.

And it's been duplicated multiple times by multiple industries.

Yeah, I love that image. It just shows just how strong and confident these individuals are, especially being a woman in the trades. Walking on that job site for the first time and being in a trade that's predominantly men, were you accepted upfront or did it take time for those individuals to get comfortable around a woman who's not necessarily in that trade?

So the first time I walked on a job site, I remember I was accepted by some other people looked at me with skepticism. They don't know why the woman's there. There used to be a lot of rumors that women were just in the trades looking for a rich man or that, you know, we were in the trade for the wrong reasons. But for the most part, I found that if you just prove yourself, if you go to work and you work hard and you prove yourself, you will be accepted. The problem is, is that a lot of times as a woman in the trades, we want to fit in so desperately. We want to prove ourselves. And I think that I made the mistake at times of trying to fit in so much that I conformed to the ideologies. I thought I needed to behave in a certain way and sit there and enjoy the banter with the guys.

And at times I regret now when I look back at that, the mistakes I made, because all I really had to do was do my job and not get involved in the drama and I would have been accepted. It's about proving yourself. Once you prove to the guys that you can do your job, for the most part, they'll accept you. There's a few that won't, but that's on them.

What's the percentage? And obviously, maybe it's a little bit different in Canada. I don't know if you know the US percentages of women who are in iron working.

When I first started in iron working, it was about 2%. I'm not sure. But there is definitely an increase in women in the trades, especially even here in Canada. I remember going onto job sites and there was only a few women. If you'd see any at all. All and now we see more. But I think the biggest connection came when social media became prevalent across North America. And then all of a sudden all these groups started of women talking to women.

And it was like there was these women, especially some of the women in the US like Shay, for example. I remember her, an iron worker out of Portland who had traveled all over America on job sites and never, ever, ever seen another woman. So when social media came out, she's like, oh, my God, there's all these women in the trades. So we're seeing more women in the industry now. I don't know that the numbers actually have changed. Overall, it's still around 4%. As far as I know, that number hasn't changed. I think that the awareness, however, and the fact that social media brought us all together is what's making it more prevalent.

Social media has changed the game for the trades, I believe, because as you use that example, there's tons of examples in other trades too, where a few weeks ago I had Plumber page on the podcast, and she's a young individual and she's doing great things in the plumbing world and she's getting into H vac and she's giving back. And social media has put them on the radar where before they were there or maybe there, but you didn't really know about them. So I believe social media has really pulled the mask off a lot of these individuals. Where they were, didn't know they were even there. And now social media has really put them in the spotlight.

Yes. And the greatest thing about people like Paige, I love Paige, is that she actually exemplifies what a role model is. Somebody who's passionate about the industry, who represents it with authenticity and integrity. And she's giving little girls an image to look to and a mirror kind of a role model to look to and be like, wow, look at this girl. Look at the amazing things she's doing in the trade. Look at how brilliant she is. Look at her coloring, her kids books and stuff. And we need more of that.

And I think we're getting more of that. We have more and more women all the time that are coming out and showing what it's like to be on a job site. And they're setting up the future generations with those role models to seek out and mimic and follow in their footsteps. And that's really important now. So social media does have its negative sides, but the positive sides, man, it's really helping transform the industry.

Having a role model can change the trajectory of your career in so many different ways, whether it's business or the trades. Who has been an influential person or people that you can attribute to your success and evolution in the trades?

Wow. I have so many. And it's interesting because when I started in the trades, oftentimes I was the only girl on a job site. And even though there were some men there that weren't always easy to get along with, they were still, still the people who formed me and shaped me and taught me and helped me to become the worker that I was. Those men that I started in the trades with, those were really the first mentors and teachers that I had. And then as I evolved into the trades, I met wonderful mentors and supports. I have a friend, Vern, who was always there to support me and mentor me. And when I was struggling, he always was there to pick me up and encourage me.

And then when I started going down to Women Build nations, which was a huge conference that used to be in California every year and now it's all over the United States, I started going there and I started meeting all these wonderful, wonderful women. And I met Pat Williams, who's now my business partner, and she's the one who's encouraged me to be this role model and get out there. And she was a woman who had been advocating for the skilled trade since the 70s. And she kind of took me under her wing. I can go on and on. I have lists and they all know who they are, but there's so many of them, just wonderful people that are there to help, you know, direct you and mentor you and support you. And we definitely need those mentorship systems because as humans, no matter what industry you're in, you're going to have your rough days. And to have those people that have the experience and the knowledge that can really help you move forward is so important.

I chuckle when people say they're self made. I don't believe people are self made. I think people have helped people along their journey. It doesn't matter again, what line of. You know, again, if you're a business owner, an entrepreneur, you're in the trades, whatever industry, somebody's helped you along the way, somebody has helped you in a particular area. Because there's a lot of things when you're in your journey, there's a lot of things you don't know. And I always say the things you don't know hurt you. But these individuals really can help you along the way and cut the amount of time out of your journey where you would be trying to figuring it out yourself.

Have you paid it forward to people underneath you to help them with their journeys.

I try to be a role model. I'm not a perfect person. I mean, I make mistakes all the time. I've hurt people. I've participated in the wrong conversations and have believed some of the things I've heard and spread those lies and I regret it now. There's a lot of mistakes that I made, but I really don't think anybody is under me. I think that we're all equals and we're all contributing to the same. We're all part of humanity and we all need to help each other.

And so I don't see them as under me, but I see them as equals to me that I have more experience in one way than they do. For example, I have a young girl, Dee, that's part of my organization. When I met her, she was a high school student and she kind of seen me as a mentor and a support and somebody that she wanted to get in the trades because I was encouraging and helping her and mentoring her along the way. But it turned around and now here she is. She's part of my organization. She helps me go into schools and talks and now she's my mentor. And now there's other things that she helps me with. So she has ADHD and she, even though she's only in her 20s, she helps me understand more about my diagnosis.

So where we all help each other in one way, the other person helps us in another way. And to me it all levels out. We all have something to contribute to the conversation. And for people who say they're self made, you know, okay, so maybe you're doing something a little bit unique, but you had friends and family or teachers or other people that you were mirroring or reflecting from. So you might have created something for yourself, but you weren't exactly self made because, you know, you had outside influences that did affect that.

Let me rephrase about. Underneath what I was trying to get at is younger. So somebody who's a little bit younger coming up in the trades, who you've had that experience X amount of years and that person is new, you've helped them sort of in their journey. I've done this both ways. I've asked for help. It took me years to ask for help. I thought I was just like, I'll figure it out. I was always baked into me especially, and I always disagree with my father who always said, try to figure it out yourself, you're smart.

Didn't really pan out as well as I thought. It would be because I hit Roblox and I thought I knew what I was doing and I really wasn't. I got the courage, asked for help and now I ask for help on everything. It's worthwhile because sometimes I'm not as smart in every single area as other people where they're hyper focused in certain areas and I don't have superpowers and everything. So I submit to in a sense that I don't know everything and I want to learn from others and I want to get around good people. But that kind of held me back for years. And if I knew that earlier, I think it would have been in a different spot today.

Well, you do have superpowers. You just don't recognize them yourself sometimes because you're always your own biggest critic. But I mean, look at the influence you're having, look at your following, look at the stuff you put out every day and the positive feedback you get. So you do have superpowers, Andrew, and you're using them properly. But it is hard to ask for help. I'm a person who same thing, I never wanted to ask for help and I feel like I'm bothering people when I ask them for help. Like I feel like I'm being a nuisance and I don't like bothering people. I don't like feeling that way, especially because I have really high spectrum ADHD and I have rejection sensitivity dysphoria.

So for me, I always feel like people don't want to help. Wow. When you ask for help from the right people, does it ever change and impact the way you do things? It helps you significantly and I'm just getting comfortable with asking for help myself. So I know where you're coming from.

Yeah. I've found when people say, well, how can I help you? I feel, well, I can't really give you anything back right now. You're telling me that you can help me. It does feel a little bit weird. But I try to pay it forward and I try to help that individual if I can. But it's just opened up a lot of doors for me personally by asking these individuals and I just so baffled that people are willing to help and some people will ask for their time and they want to be paid for their time and I completely understand that some other just they have some extra time and they just want to give back to a younger individual. I love it because I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. Other people have done these things, right? Most of these things have been done and you need to find that person, the right person who can take you along and get you along that ladder of success.

You know what's funny? We don't like asking for help from people, but we like giving help. And it feels so good to give help. Like, I love selflessly helping people. I mean, you do have to make a living. You can't do everything for free. Like, I have bills to pay. I wish I could do everything that I did for free. I would love to be able to.

But just the feeling of being able to help somebody and knowing that you made an impact in their life and you affected positive change in their life, that is a feeling that if somebody's never helped somebody else just selflessly, not expecting anything in return, you have no idea what that feeling feels like. And it's something definitely worth chasing. It's a high that you should be chasing.

I think your biggest critic is the person staring you right back in the mirror. At least for me, you know, it's always that, no, you know, you're not doing it right or you're me against me. Sometimes you don't stand back and say, wow, you know, look how far you've come along the way. Look how far you've come in your journey. And you just keep pushing and pushing and pushing, but you never, you never look backwards. You never say, like, wow, you've come a long way. Have you felt that in your journey? Like, with all the things that you've done in your career, from speaking and helping kids, working on the tools and all the different areas that you've gone into, you look back and say, wow, I do.

And sometimes I really struggle because I don't feel that what I'm doing is anything super special. I see people that do it with way more success than I do. I see people that, you know, have these established organizations and they're out there and they're making so much money. And I was never in it for that. I was just in it because I just want to help people. But at the same time, I am so critical of myself. And sometimes I have to get on the phone with. With some of these mentors and supporters that I met along the way and be like, I'm really having a crap day.

And I feel like I just want to give up. I don't want to do this anymore. And my business partner, especially Pat Williams, she lives down in the US and she's a stationary operating engineer who's now retired. And she's only about four foot something, but man, she. I call her Mighty Mouse. Because when I'm having those bad days, she will be the first one to kick my butt. And she'll say, I want you to get online, and I want you to look at all the articles or the things that you've done. I want you to think of all those kids that came up to you at an end of a presentation and asked you questions.

I want you to think of the kids that, you know that got in the trades because you informed them about it. And I have a really hard time accepting that about myself because I don't see what I'm doing as special. I see what I'm doing as what we're supposed to do as humans. And it took me a while to get into this headspace, but it's true. We have to recognize that, no, we're not going to always be as successful as, you know, those rich billionaires that are sitting at the top, and we don't. Don't need to be, because we have to follow our heart. And as long as you're following your heart and your passion, everything else doesn't matter.

Well, I had a chance to see you speak two times. One in Las Vegas in front of 75 executives, and another time at a school which you asked me to speak, which I didn't know I was going to speak. And I'm happy you did do that and push me in two different occasions. One was the executive side and one was the kid side. And it's just. I thought it was amazing how you can get up in front of two different audiences and you just somehow you connect with each of the audiences. I know you've done this for quite a while, but you make an impact. You could tell that you made an impact with that audience.

And it was just good to see it firsthand, because when we were in New Jersey, at Bergen county in front of those kids, wow, that was energy right there. That was exciting to see in person do that.

Thank you. And I'm still working on getting my adult speaking engagements to that level. It's a little bit different to speak to adults. Some people have a really difficult time speaking to kids. I don't, because I'm probably 12 years old at heart. When you talk and you tell the truth, like when I talk to the kids, I have experience in the trade. I have experience with going through school and understanding what it's like to have different things like adhd and, you know, I got picked on and bullied as a kid because I had learning differences. And I was in special education, and I speak to that to the kids.

And I talk about, you know, I don't just talk about getting into the trades. I talk about the real things that the kids are going through now. How it personally impacted my life because I went through all those same struggles and challenges. And yet despite all of that, I was able to find a pathway that completely changed my life. Actually, skilled trades saved my life because it opened up doors to opportunities that I never would have thought were possible for me because I was never that kid who did good in school and I never thought I was going to be successful in life. I don't have what it takes to sit in a university or a college and, and learn by writing down and listening to lectures. I can't sit still for five minutes. So I needed something different.

And thank God that things are changing now and they realize in the education system that we have these learning differences and that skilled trades are also a really good pathway to teach kids. And I think that's what's resonating with the kids. Maybe you don't want to sit in school for the next several years. Maybe you don't have the money to, maybe you don't have the environment at home, the settings to do this. And rather than thinking that you're going to be a failure because you don't have the resources to go and apply and do these things or the, you know, the ability because it's not part of how your brain is made, this is still another pathway that you can take and everybody is responsible for their own success and you can be this successful person despite your circumstances and that resonates with the kids.

Yeah, not everybody's built for college or going that route or going that career path or a white collar path. That's why I always say the blue collar path, the trades path is a great alternative. If the college path is not for you, obviously you can weigh the debt and you know what you make and I could probably spend another hour on it. But the adhd, because I just want to pivot for a quick second because you mentioned it a couple of different times and you've been, you've come out that you had ADHD and I see my son having very similar type of ADHD qualities. And you and I have spoken about this offline a handful of months ago. But how has that affected you and how does that affect other people? Because I don't think everybody knows or understands ADHD and how that really can affect you in your career, your day to day. If they're talking to someone who has adhd they don't even know that they do. And they're doing things that you're wondering why they're doing that, but it's just a part of what you have.

How has that affected you throughout your career, and how have you overcome it?

I was diagnosed very young, although when I was young, they didn't really understand what ADHD is because I'm a lot older. Automatically you just had a learning disability. Now, when I was young, they said that the average was about 1 in 2000 kids that were born with ADHD or autism. Nowadays, that number is about 1 in 38, if I'm not mistaken. So it's on the rise. But the thing that I suffer most with with my adhd, besides the fact that I don't like sitting still and my brain is always like, go, go, go, and I can't sleep at night. But one of the things that I really struggle with and everybody who has ADHD is on a spectrum, and we have different things that we struggle with that are on a spectrum, too. The one thing that I really struggle with with my ADHD is rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria.

So I twist things. I take everything personally. I was told the whole time in trades, oh, you're too sensitive, Jamie. You've got to loosen up. Like, come on, we're just kidding. And sometimes it was from early antagonistic people that weren't really kidding. But at times, it was my friends and people that were really helping support and mentor me, and they're like, you need to loosen up. You need to stop taking things personally.

And it wasn't until 2020, during COVID that I actually went and got rediagnosed. I'd never done medication before. I got rediagnosed, and they finally medicated me. And then I started to learn about adhd. I did a deep dive. Now with adhd, I hyperfocus so I can focus on certain subjects that I'm interested in, learn all about them. So I started learning about adhd, and I started learning about all these different spectrums. I started to realize that my entire life, there were so many things that I actually sabotaged on my own because of that sensitivity to rejection.

There was times on the job site where people were actually my friends and trying to help, but because of their constructive criticism, I didn't know how to see the constructive side of it. So I would take it as a negative, and I would isolate myself from people more and more, thinking that they didn't like me or they were insulting me or they were intentionally hurting me. And it started to take a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy for me to realize that that was just the way I thought in my brain and not how they were actually behaving or trying intentionally treating me. I can't recover some of those past relationships that I had. But moving forward, I think the biggest thing overcoming that is now that I'm learning to switch the way I think. And I still struggle with it really bad, but it's switching it because people who suffer with ADHD and this rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, it's all shame based. We are always feeling a sense of shame. Every conversation ends with us ruminating, did I say something wrong? Every interaction with people, like, I'll go to an event and then I.

I ruminate and I can't sleep at night because I go through every conversation that I had in my head and I'm like, I hope I didn't say anything wrong. I hope they didn't interpret that the wrong way. And I think that's been my biggest part of trying to recover from that, is just trying to twist the narrative and see that not everybody's out to get you, Jamie. You know, and that's something that a lot of people with ADHD need to learn about, because I think it can really transform your life when you realize, no, people aren't out to get you. They're actually on your side. They're just trying to offer some constructive criticism.

I think a lot of people don't even know that they have ADHD. As you said. If you're saying 1 out of 38 people, why do you think that is? Is it just because it's being caught? Or there's another reason sort of behind that where there's a lot.

So if you go down the psychology rabbit hole, like I've gone down and tried to study it, it kind of stems back that it's on the rise. And a lot of it is on the rise because when we look back, you look back at the trauma that happened to our great grandparents and then our grandparents from wars and sicknesses and diseases. And, you know, it contributed to the way that people treated each other back then. So you look at people who were coming back from, say, World War II, now they have all this PTSD and trauma, and now they're going and they're getting married. And that PTSD and trauma is now, it's manifesting itself in different ways throughout their family situations and circumstances, not to mention that transgenerational trauma that gets passed down through our DNA and genes and all that kind of stuff. Well, what happens is ADHD is an inherited trait, but children also gain their emotional intelligence from the people that they mirror in their life. So between the ages of like five to seven is when you stop developing emotional intelligence, and you're basically getting that emotional intelligence from the people that are raising you. Now, one of the things that's happening is that we are tapped out in our systems.

Everybody's working too much. They're struggling to make ends meet. Parents are not there to be there for their kids anymore. Kids are getting dropped off at daycare with a bunch of other kids that are coming from different home situations, and they're not getting that same interaction with their primary caregivers anymore. So they're picking up on all these different conflicting ideologies and different people to mirror. So they're not actually building that same understanding and emotional intelligence they would get if they had that attention that they so desperately need in those early years when they're developing their character traits and their personalities. That's one of the problems that contribute to it, because parents just are tapped out. We don't have time.

And the other thing is that this. Kids are being raised on this, and this is fast information. They want everything in 30 seconds. They don't want to have to listen. So we are conditioning kids to be constantly moving from subject to subject. And that's just some of the reasons it's becoming more and more prevalent. But a lot of it does stem back from that trauma, that childhood trauma, where they're not receiving those good mirrors to mirror. They're not getting that primary care that they need in most cases.

And it's unfortunate because it's not the parents fault sometimes it's just the way it is. You got to put food on the table, you got to work. You don't have time to give your kids like you used to.

I wonder if social media plays a part in this. You know, kids are going down the rabbit hole, and obviously this is like another whole topic, but going down the rabbit hole of YouTube shorts and TikToks and getting lost in that world, and you're just kind of like all this information's coming at you. And on top of, like you said, parents not having enough time. I work, my wife works, my kids are busy, everyone's going this way or that way. And I don't think it was like that years prior where you sat around the table together and you spoke as a family. You sat. We don't. It's like we're running a marathon.

It's Nonstop. So I could see that where you know, kids are just not getting the attention that they once did years prior, which could be affecting them. On top of just having the social media and the phone and being distracted all the time.

There's so many contributing factors to it. And what's happening too is because kids are like, here's your babysitter, you know, somebody's handing them a phone and you have little kids, you know, four or five years old, that know how to use a cell phone now better than I do. I'm so technologically challenged. But like, I remember when my niece was like 6 years old and she was teaching me how to use my iPhone because they know all this technology, but they're no longer getting that mirror from positive influences. It's like, here's your tablet. And the kids go in the room and immediately are going over to social media. They're paying attention to influencers. They're watching stuff that is probably way too mature in content for their age.

It's systematically creating this real issue in our society. And I think that it's now every kid wants to be an influencer and they don't want to have to work hard for their money because they think they can just, you know, do something really easy and, you know, become a van lifer and show every day what restaurant they're eating and pictures of their scrambled eggs and get paid for it and they don't want to do the hard work anymore.

Do you think we can stop the shortage of the skilled trades? Do you think that we can make an impact? Or have we been making a big enough impact? Or are there just going to be less people in the skilled trades and there won't be as many people who are as talented and it's just going to be what it is and technology will hopefully start to, to some degree help out. What do you say about that? Are we making a dent out there?

I hope so. So one of the biggest issues I'm having right now is I'm very concerned. I'm very concerned. We're out there promoting the skill trades, but not all employers are taking on these students. And now more and more employers are seeking AI solutions or advanced technology solutions. And we're seeing people losing their jobs because of these automated robots. Now we don't need people on lines and manufacturing plants anymore. And it is taking away risk of injury and all that kind of stuff, but it's leaving people without jobs.

But here's my biggest concern. As much as people don't want to say that we didn't have an advanced civilization once upon a time. I don't believe that because I don't understand how these ancient structures were built. So as somebody who's been in the ironworkers for a long time, I've seen some pretty big cranes moving some pretty big stuff. And we as master riggers, we don't understand how a lot of these ancient structures were built. So whether or not we had an advanced civilization at a time is questionable for some people. But to me, I look at it and say, did we though and then was there some sort of catastrophe in the world or did something happen that we lost that advanced technology? Because it's not unreasonable to think that something had happened today to us. We are starting to get to a point where we're depending so much on AI and advanced technology that what's going to happen if we take those hands on career and that learning out of the schools and we forget about it? Is it possibly what happened before? Did people become so complacent with modern technology that they started to avoid learning hands on skills? Because I know right now they're like, well, we'll get you a robot and it's going to clean your whole house and do everything for you so you could just sit back and relax and enjoy your life.

Yeah, but then we lose those hands on skills. And if we have an earthquake or a tornado or a war or an asteroid, anything, anything can hit us. What happens? We go back to the stone age. So I think it's really important that we find ways to educate these kids and keep reminding them that it's really important to know how to fix your car. It's really important to be able to do your own stuff around your house so you don't have to pay for the increased costs of labor and material to do it. This is the direction I'm going at now. It's like, okay, maybe life will get easier for you. But what if you're stranded on the side of a road with no perception and you don't know how to fix your flat tire? Do you have a robot coming around with you to do it for you? Probably not.

And not everybody's going to have the financial ability to afford this stuff either. So when you look at countries that are at war right now, who's going in to rebuild that? When you use your brain and do some critical thinking, you could see it.

Kids are coming out of school today, they don't know how to read a tape measure, they don't know how to swing a hammer. They don't know how to fix anything around the house. They're so dependent upon technology. I even see this with my own kids. They're asking, hey, Siri, they're asking a question, and it's coming back with the answer in two seconds. Where. When we were younger, I had to look it up in encyclopedia. I had to go to the library and look this stuff up.

Now everything's at your fingertips. Like, maybe I'm predating myself, but the thing is, we had to do stuff. We, my family and I, we. We watched this show called the Little House on the Prairie. It's an old show, and it takes place in the 1800s. Like, you had to know how to do stuff. Like, if you didn't know how to do stuff, you're in a bad spot to fix the wagon, work on your house. You had to hunt.

Like, you had to do stuff. And now today, we're so reliant on everything. Like, I always worry that one day that all the technology goes out. There's a solar flare and all the transformers. There's no power, and nobody knows how to do anything because we're so reliant on technology that we don't know how to do things. That's why we say a lot of this stuff is a lost art. That's why I named it the Lost art of the Skilled trades. Because all that stuff that people used to do and know, it's not like it once was.

And it's kind of scary. It is only so far that technology will take this. But who are you going to go to when your boiler fails and your plumbing's on the fritz and the electricity goes out and the power lines go down? There's only so much the AI technology and robots, you need people with their hands, and they need to fix that. And I don't know. It is scary to think about where it's going to be in the next handful of years.

Yes. And I think that the bigger our populations get, we've institutionalized school, and school isn't the holistic learning that it once was. I mean, kids used to learn in school how to do practical things. And now kids just sit in a classroom and they're just pumped with all this information that they don't care about. And they're not taught to use their hands. They're not used. It's interesting. I was watching TikTok one day, and I get sucked into it sometimes just like everybody else, and I went down the rabbit hole and I ended up landing on this school that was in it was somewhere in an Asian country, I can't even remember what country.

But it was so neat because the kids, right from early childhood education, they're getting educated outside. It's a holistic education center. They climb trees. They don't have all these safety restrictions in place like, oh my God, don't climb monkey bars, they climb trees. They learn how to do self defense as early kids. They're learning how to build, they're learning how to go and chop down trees. They're learning horticultural, they're learning how to grow plants and fruits and vegetables, and they're learning about herbs and how to use herbs to make teas and elixirs to heal themselves. We don't teach any of that stuff.

We put kids into a school with brick walls and fluorescent lights and we teach them stuff that is not going to help them in their future. I mean, great, it's good to know all about your history, but do we need to know a lot of this stuff when we're not learning the practical skills that we actually need to live? Kids who don't know how to do their finances, they don't know how to do a budget. Financial literacy should be at the forefront of every school. There's so much holistic learning that they need to bring back into the school systems. I think when they do that, that's when you'll start to see a big shift in the human consciousness and the way we learn and understand things.

When you know what hits the fan, those are the people who are going to be able to survive because they know how to not revolve sort of around technology and have been taught how to do stuff. I always try to do stuff and learn things, live off the grid or something like that. If something would happen and you need to really understand how to do stuff, but you know, be curious and want to learn how to work with your hands. I think it's just, even if it's not again a trades path, at least it gives you curious to fix things around the house. And you know, if something breaks, it would be apt to be like, yeah, I want to try to fix that before I call someone in, in the trades that maybe I can attempt it because I'm handy. But you got to be curious about doing that.

Practical life skills that should be at the forefront of education. We should be teaching that. Cause you're right. If there's a catastrophe, think about where you live, what you know, what your experience is, what your kids would know. Like if there's a catastrophe, wouldn't all parents want to know that wherever their kids are, their kids have a safety plan and know how to take care of themselves. Because right now, you're right. If there was a solar flare and the power went out, downtown New York City would be a mess and everybody would be tripping over everybody. You'd have fights.

And the things that could potentially happen in an outage of, of electricity when there's no gas, people are trying to get out of town, the highways are jammed. The escalation of anxiety and fear and warmongering can come out of that. We have to think more critically. We have to be smarter in our decisions of how we raise people to take care of themselves. Because if a catastrophe happens, the first person I'm running to is probably somebody who knows how to hunt and fish and take care of themselves in the wilderness. You need those survival skills.

You do. And that's what we used to do back in the day, and we kind of lost that and we just became so reliant on technology. I'm optimistic. I think there is hope for the future. I do feel that the trades, you know, you're starting to see signs with Gen Z and being the tool belt generation and things that you're doing up in Canada, the things I'm doing here in the US and the other people that are doing things and the skilled trades. I do think people are starting to look at this path. Obviously, if college is the right path for you, so be it. But if you're looking for a different option, if you're looking to work with your hands, you're looking to not come out with a lot of debt and start making money right away.

There's always people looking for people to fix things, build things, repair things, infrastructure work. We spend trillions of dollars here on infrastructure. We need a lot of people in the trades. Jamie, this has been an amazing conversation, but before you leave, I want to ask you what is one of your special tools of the trade that you can offer our audience to help women start their career in ironworking? What can they do today?

Well, ironworking is a really wonderful career, and if it's something that you're interested in, I suggest definitely getting out there, learning about it, learning about metal trades and trying to weld. And if you're still in high school, take some of the classes. If you have technology classes, take them. If you don't have them in your high school, maybe consider taking them. You know, after high school, take some extra classes. There's all types of really cool roadshows that go around with career exhibitions and things like the Skills USA competitions. There's so many different types of job fairs and exhibitor fairs that you can go to really, really look into it and find yourself some great mentors online. Go online and seek out other people that are in the industry and ask questions.

I will say it's not always easy to get into a specific trade. Sometimes you have to look to see if they're even hiring at the time. Because a lot of times, you know, work can be like feast or famine, we call it. Sometimes it's really busy, sometimes it slows down a bit. So you gotta find out when it's really busy so that you can get in at that time. But always have a backup plan too. It might not be as easy to get into, say, the ironworker trade, but there are so many other different metal trades. So if you're interested in welding and working with steel, you.

You could be a boiler maker, a sheet metal worker. You can be an H Vac because there's stuff that they do with bending metal and stuff too. There's just so many different industries that you can try pipe fitting. Definitely explore your options. Don't just settle on one thing. And if you're applying to get into somewhere, be the squeaky wheel. Squeaky wheels get grease. You're not going to get in just by mailing your application in.

You got to show up, you got to show your face. I know some people, like my friend Elvira. She literally wanted a job so bad she couldn't get one. So she walked on a job site and said, I will come in and volunteer. Volunteer every day for a week. And at the end of the week, if you don't like me, you don't have to hire me. But if you like me, please sign me for an apprenticeship. And without taking jobs away from anybody else.

When you volunteer, try that option because you've got to show that you are driven and passionate about industry to get into the industry.

I love that advice for women, for men who want to get into the trade, specifically into iron working, but just general getting into the trades, go down to Skills usa. I was down there over the summer and it was wonderful to see 6,000 kids compete against each other in all different trades. Job fairs definitely look to see what's out there as far as the trades. Just speaking to people, even in your own network, whether it's your neighbor, whether it's a family member, whether it's going down to your local welding shop of some sort. You got to be driven. That's not going to just come to you. You need to find it. But if you want to work with your hands, there's a great opportunity out there to do well, to learn a trade.

There's always work. And I still think that AI and technology is not going to replace skilled trades anytime soon. Jamie, it has been a pleasure to have you here. Thank you so much for being on the show today.

Thanks for having me. And it's about time. We finally did it.

Yeah, we finally did. And thank you so much. And thank you to our listeners. If you're looking for a speaker on the skilled trades topics, I'm available for both in person and virtual events. If you want more information, head over to Andrew brown dot net and join our Trades Movement newsletter where we advocate for the trades. We share inspirational stories like Jamie McMillan, we provide resources and you join a passionate community. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss another episode. We'll see you next time.

Thanks for listening to the Lost Art of the Skilled Trades. Visit us@AndrewBryan.net for more resources and tips. Join us next time for real stories and meaningful initiatives as we celebrate our men and women in the skilled trades and shape the future together.