Artwork for podcast TonyTidbit: A Black Executive Perspective
The Illusion of Power: Challenges Faced by Black Women Executives
Episode 139 • 14th May 2024 • TonyTidbit: A Black Executive Perspective • TonyTidbit ™
00:00:00 01:05:04

Share Episode

Shownotes

Episode Title:

Episode Audio Link: https://podcast.ablackexec.com/episode/the-illusion-of-power-challenges-faced-by-black-women-executives

Episode Video Link:

This episode from 'A Black Executive Perspective' podcast features Sonja Hayes McNaughton, Founder, and CEO of Discovering Eden, discussing the unique challenges faced by Black

women in leadership roles within corporate America. Hosted by Tony Tidbit, the

show touches upon critical issues like intersectionality, tokenism,

microaggressions, and the disproportionate hurdles encountered due to race and

gender in the workplace. The discussion highlights the lack of support and

resources allocated to Black women executives compared to their counterparts,

emphasizing the need for genuine diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts

within organizations. By sharing her journey and the inception of her company

aimed at empowering high-achieving women of color, McNaughton offers insights

on navigating corporate structures, advocating for systemic change, and the

importance of servant leadership. Additionally, the episode calls for action to

address these systemic issues for a more equitable corporate culture.


▶︎ In This Episode

00:00:Introduction to Black Executive Perspectives

00:41: Launching the Podcast: A Safe Space for Race Discussions

01:46: Spotlight on Sonja Hayes McNaughton: Overcoming Challenges as a Black Woman Leader.

03:48: Discovering Eden: Empowering Women of Color in Leadership.

05:43: Personal Journey: From Corporate America to Entrepreneurship.

07:34: The Impact of Family and Early Life on Leadership.

09:30: Confronting Racial Challenges in the Workplace.

16:32: Exploring Intersectionality and Its Impact on Black Women Leaders.

29:08: Navigating Leadership as the Only Person of Color.

33:10: Navigating Workplace Dynamics as a Black Woman Leader.

34:07: The Impact of Undermined Leadership and Team Dynamics.

35:30: Microaggressions and Their Subtle Effects.

37:28: Defining Micro and Macroaggressions in the Workplace.

39:46: The Role of Allies and Support in Leadership.

47:42: Overcoming Challenges and Embracing Diversity.

51:14: Final Thoughts and Advice for Black Women Executives.

55:25: Understanding DEI and Its Importance.

01:02:54: Closing Remarks and Future Episodes Preview.

🔗 Resources

Links and resources mentioned in this episode: https://discoveryoureden.com/

🔔 Listen and Subscribe

Listen to this episode and subscribe for future updates

subscribe to A Black Executive Perspective podcast on

if you like what we're doing and would like to support us, here's some ways you can help us continue the uncomfortable conversations that drive change

  1. subscribe to our newsletter
  2. give us up to a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts
  3. share an episode with a friend, family member or colleague

🗣️ Follow @ablackexec

follow us across social media @aBlackExec

⭐️ Follow @TonyTidbit

follow Tony across social media @TonyTidbit

This episode was produced by TonyTidbit ™ . Copyright © 2024 A BLACK EXECUTIVE PERSPECTIVE LLC. All rights reserved. No part of this podcast may be reproduced without prior written permission. For permissions, email podcast@ablackexec.com .

Transcripts

Speaker:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: If you are

at the same level, uh, you know,

2

:

you're seeing your counterparts,

you've been given a role.

3

:

You're making half the money that

they're making your, or maybe you're

4

:

making the same money, but you're given

half the budget that they're given,

5

:

but you're expected to produce at the

same level that they are producing.

6

:

You're setting me up for failure.

7

:

And you're doing it based

on it's intersectionality.

8

:

You're, you're looking at me as a woman,

you're looking at me as a woman of color.

9

:

And you're looking at, and

you're looking at these things as

10

:

weaknesses when actually you should

be looking at them as strengths.

11

:

Tony Tidbit: We'll discuss race and how it

plays a factor and how we didn't even talk

12

:

about this topic because we were afraid.

13

:

A

14

:

Narrator: Black

15

:

Tony Tidbit: Executive Perspective.

16

:

Welcome to a Black Executive Perspective

podcast, a safe space where we

17

:

discuss all matters related to race,

especially race in corporate America.

18

:

I'm your host, Tony Tidbit.

19

:

So first we want to thank W.

20

:

W.

21

:

N.

22

:

H.

23

:

U.

24

:

88.

25

:

7 on the Richter dial.

26

:

We're here in their podcast room

at the University of New Haven.

27

:

So really appreciate being here

their hospitality And really love

28

:

the love that they share with a

black executive perspective podcast.

29

:

So thank you WNHU and then also don't

forget to check out our partners CODE

30

:

M magazine whose mission is saving the

black family By first saving the black

31

:

man, check them out at CodeMMagazine.

32

:

com.

33

:

So, . The significant yet often overlooked

challenges faced by black women ascending

34

:

to leadership roles can undermine

their authority and effectiveness.

35

:

Despite breaking through glass ceilings,

these leaders encounter unique hurdles.

36

:

Today's guest, Sonja Hayes McNaughton,

founder and CEO of Discovering

37

:

Eden, will delve into these issues

and explore potential solutions.

38

:

To overcome them.

39

:

Sonia Hayes McNaughton.

40

:

Welcome to a Black Executive Perspective.

41

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Thank

you so much for having me, Tony.

42

:

Happy to be here.

43

:

Tony Tidbit: I'm so glad you're here.

44

:

And, you know, as you guys know, we're

in again, uh, the University of New

45

:

Haven podcast studio, Sonia came all

the way down here from New Jersey.

46

:

She's all, look at her.

47

:

She's all dolled up.

48

:

She's ready to be able to come and

talk about a very important topic.

49

:

That's not spoken a lot about, so

I can't wait to hear her expertise.

50

:

And we're going to dive into, you

know, the challenges black women

51

:

leaders face and how to overcome them.

52

:

But first we want to learn a

little bit more about Sonia.

53

:

So Sonia, tell us a little

bit about your background.

54

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Sure.

55

:

Um, I, I'll start, I guess

with my, Oh, I'm from New York.

56

:

I am in New York at heart.

57

:

I live in New Jersey.

58

:

Now, like you said, I am a first

generation, um, Belizean American.

59

:

My family is from Belize and,

um, I'm the youngest of four.

60

:

Um, And, uh, I'm now the mother of three.

61

:

Wow.

62

:

Three big kids and I have a

wonderful husband as well.

63

:

And I have had a, um, I won't use

the word illustrious, but I've had

64

:

a blessed career in, um, marketing.

65

:

It's okay to say illustrious.

66

:

Tony Tidbit: So we don't, we don't,

we don't build ourselves up enough.

67

:

That's true.

68

:

You're right about that.

69

:

It's all good.

70

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

You're right about that.

71

:

I've had a really I've had a lustrous

career in marketing and, um, my background

72

:

is I have a degree in undergraduate

undergraduate degree in organizational

73

:

management and a graduate degree in

strategic leadership and communications,

74

:

which kind of, um, it's a twofold.

75

:

It segwayed me into marketing, but it's

also segwayed me into having my own in

76

:

my own company for corporate training

for executive leadership for women.

77

:

Tony Tidbit: That's that is awesome.

78

:

Great background.

79

:

You know, I love that.

80

:

So tell us a little bit about

Discovering Eden your company.

81

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I'm sure

Discovering Eden is um, I like to

82

:

consider us, uh change agents We are

all about empowering high achieving

83

:

high performing women of color.

84

:

Actually women

85

:

overall

86

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: But we do place

a heavy emphasis on women of color, uh,

87

:

and we just prepare them, uh, with the

proper tools, whether it's networking, uh,

88

:

community, uh, of like minded individuals,

programs, executive leadership.

89

:

If you are, uh, at executive

level, maybe if you are, you know.

90

:

In the C suite, and you're leading

an enterprise, and you need to

91

:

have a better understanding of

what it truly means to embrace DEI

92

:

uh, we, we have problems for that.

93

:

And then we also have programs just for,

uh, you know, women who are trying to.

94

:

Uh, facilitate or plan out

their trajectory for their

95

:

career in leadership, rather.

96

:

And so you can be in midline management

or you can be in senior management,

97

:

but it's really helping them with

their professional development skills,

98

:

whether that's, you know, soft skills,

some technical skills, or even things

99

:

like, um, uh, imposter syndrome.

100

:

You know, training on that.

101

:

So if you're in midline management,

we have programs that will help you

102

:

kind of navigate imposter syndrome,

or if you need executive presence,

103

:

but, you know, reinforcements or how

to have influence in the workplace,

104

:

or if you need just some training.

105

:

Just to have a board seat

if you want to join board.

106

:

So we have a number of different programs,

workshops, webinars, and we also have a

107

:

curated library where you can just find

resources, whether it's case studies or

108

:

just other thought leadership pieces that

you could use to glean from and use for

109

:

best practices or just to enhance your.

110

:

You know, your professional development.

111

:

Tony Tidbit: Wow.

112

:

I mean, that's insane.

113

:

There's a lot of stuff that you

end up helping leaders overcome.

114

:

And so real quick, what, what made

you want to start your own business?

115

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I, I spent

About 20 years in corporate America.

116

:

And like I said, it's been illustrious.

117

:

I was blessed, but I also found that

there were some, um, there were some,

118

:

I don't need to reward glitches, but

there were some, there were some moments

119

:

that I felt I was at a disadvantage.

120

:

So, um, and I, and I, and I feel like

some of that was due to not only my

121

:

gender, but obviously to my, you know,

the fact that I'm a minority woman.

122

:

Right.

123

:

And so, uh, you know, after I, after I.

124

:

20 years in the business.

125

:

I then decided I wanted to help

other women who might be struggling

126

:

in the same way that I did.

127

:

Right.

128

:

So when I say struggle, I mean,

you know, things that may have

129

:

taken me 15 years to achieve.

130

:

I feel like I might've been able to

achieve that maybe in seven years.

131

:

And so if I would have done things

differently, or if I had the advocates in

132

:

place or something of that nature, as I

want to be that kind of a servant leader.

133

:

You know, to help others to really get

to where they're trying to go faster

134

:

and, um, and, and, and smoother.

135

:

It was complicated.

136

:

Tony Tidbit: I love it.

137

:

I love it.

138

:

And that's what we need more

of serving leaders, right?

139

:

That's the key phrase that

you said is servant leaders.

140

:

And I don't think that a lot of.

141

:

Leaders know what really

being a leader is.

142

:

It's not a title.

143

:

Uh, it's about being a

servant and serving others.

144

:

So we're going to

definitely get into that.

145

:

So my girl seemed like number

one, I'm excited because we see

146

:

what we got the right person here

to talk about this topic, right?

147

:

So this is awesome, right?

148

:

So you're ready to talk about it.

149

:

All right, let's talk about it.

150

:

All right.

151

:

So now listen, before we get into the deep

end of the pool, all right, you didn't

152

:

get to where you are just overnight.

153

:

Tell us a little bit about the

influence of your family, your

154

:

early life, you know, and how that

shaped you to where you are today.

155

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: So yeah,

I come from a strong Christian

156

:

faith family, my parents.

157

:

And so if anything, um, I think that,

you know, that has taught me about

158

:

dedication and loyalty, commitment.

159

:

Um, serving others.

160

:

So those are, are, are all

values that were embedded in me.

161

:

And I think the other thing is that

my parents coming from another country

162

:

and you have that American dream and

you get here, you want to get that

163

:

good job and stick with it for 35

years and get the package and retire.

164

:

And, you know, so that lends itself

to the commitment that I spoke about.

165

:

Um, it does not lend itself to

entrepreneurship, but it did, um,

166

:

instill those good hardcore values

in me that take you far, whether you

167

:

were an entrepreneur or just, you

know, working for another corporation.

168

:

So I think that's how my family kind

of my upbringing played into it.

169

:

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, it seems like the,

the, the discipline of hard work, right?

170

:

Even though it wasn't about

entrepreneurship, it was still

171

:

about getting up every morning.

172

:

Yeah.

173

:

Bring in it every day, regardless

of how you felt, regardless of

174

:

what the circumstances said,

regardless, you had to do that.

175

:

So if I'm hearing you correctly, that is

like the root of one of the things that

176

:

your parents basically provided you.

177

:

Is that correct?

178

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: It absolutely is.

179

:

And, and, I mean, just An example, when

my father retired and they gave him

180

:

his file, I think he had like over 200

and something, um, vacation days and

181

:

sick time that he never took, right?

182

:

That is, that's dedication.

183

:

Right.

184

:

So, we, we were, that was instilled.

185

:

Hard work, do what you have to

do, be a person of your word.

186

:

And, um, I mean, those are just,

they, they, they don't get old.

187

:

Those values just don't get old.

188

:

Tony Tidbit: They're the

fundamentals of life, right?

189

:

And if you follow the

fundamentals, Guess what?

190

:

They don't fail, right?

191

:

They'll pass the centuries of time.

192

:

Yep.

193

:

So based on that, tell us a little bit

about your first Racial turning point.

194

:

Oh,

195

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I remember.

196

:

And then there have been a few, but

the, the first one, it was in:

197

:

I was in a meeting and, uh, it was some,

so some, some of us were in the meeting

198

:

and physically, and then there was some

on the conference line, conference line.

199

:

And one gentleman that was online, I

didn't know him personally, but I had

200

:

a feeling that he was a man of color.

201

:

On.

202

:

On the, um, yeah, on the call, someone

referenced him with the N word, right?

203

:

Tony Tidbit: So let me just back up.

204

:

Yeah.

205

:

Conference call.

206

:

Yeah.

207

:

At work.

208

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

And I'm making a mistake.

209

:

He was not on the call.

210

:

They referenced him, but he was not on.

211

:

So they

212

:

Tony Tidbit: were

213

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

talking about him.

214

:

About him.

215

:

Tony Tidbit: And he

216

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

wasn't on the call.

217

:

He wasn't on the call.

218

:

And then they use the N word.

219

:

But the people that were on the call

did not know that I was in The room I

220

:

was the only black person in the room.

221

:

So they're under the assumption.

222

:

I'm assumed, you know that that

there is it's just there's no

223

:

minorities in the room so they

can say this word freely, right?

224

:

This

225

:

Tony Tidbit: is before zoom.

226

:

Oh, yeah, it's before team.

227

:

Right?

228

:

So it's just a regular speaker phone.

229

:

Yeah, people talking.

230

:

And they didn't know you were in the room.

231

:

So what happened?

232

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: And so they

used the word, I thought I heard

233

:

it, but part of me was, I must have

misheard that couldn't have been what

234

:

it was, but I knew what it was because

immediately after the meeting was over,

235

:

uh, two of the managers scoped me up

and they took me in our office and

236

:

they wanted to explain that this is not

the typical way that business is done.

237

:

You know, they can't believe that

this was said and, and they wanted

238

:

to kind of scoop it under the rug.

239

:

I allowed that to happen.

240

:

Right?

241

:

You know, it was very early in my career.

242

:

I was stunned that that had happened

in a corporate working, you know, here

243

:

are things when you're in school, but

I didn't know how to respond to it.

244

:

Um, and they, you know, they apologized

profusely but it left a stench.

245

:

It lingered.

246

:

Tony Tidbit: How did that make you feel?

247

:

Even though that was your first

experience in corporate America?

248

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: It made

me feel different And I already

249

:

knew I was different, but it made

me and it definitely confirmed for

250

:

me that this gentleman was a man of

color and it made me feel a little

251

:

bit confused because It perplexed.

252

:

I did not know how I didn't know

how what the right way was to just

253

:

I felt scared to speak up about it

254

:

Tony Tidbit: or

255

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: challenge it.

256

:

Tony Tidbit: I

257

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

let them apologize.

258

:

And I left it alone.

259

:

In hindsight, I could have gone to

human resources, I could have taken it

260

:

to a higher level, I could have done,

I could have amplified my voice more

261

:

to, you know, bring some awareness to

because that shouldn't be happening.

262

:

But I didn't do that.

263

:

But it's, you know, what

was the lesson in it?

264

:

I learned in that.

265

:

That's one of the learn, one of the

learning, learning lessons that you

266

:

have to use your voice or else you're

perpetuating, your silence can be,

267

:

can perpetuate this type of behavior.

268

:

Tony Tidbit: Right.

269

:

Did you, in that situation, well, at that

company, did you, um, because obviously

270

:

this ain't the first time they did that.

271

:

No.

272

:

Right.

273

:

So did you see any more of

that while you were there?

274

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I personally.

275

:

Maybe covertly, you know, um, not

the way that that had happened.

276

:

I think they were very

careful with me after that.

277

:

Very, very well politically correct.

278

:

So I did not experience that afterwards,

but I, you know, you see micro aggressions

279

:

and other ways, but I honestly, I feel

like that company does stand by, the

280

:

company does stand by, you know, being.

281

:

You know, they're renowned,

they're global, they're,

282

:

they're a good organization.

283

:

I don't think that that's how

they were operating maybe at that

284

:

level, but, um, it got murky.

285

:

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, so you mind

if I, um, you mind if I push

286

:

back on that a little bit?

287

:

Um, and I know what you mean saying that

they're a globally known organization,

288

:

that'll make them a great organization.

289

:

If they can use racial epithets.

290

:

Regarding their employees and

nobody's held accountable.

291

:

Okay, accountable.

292

:

They ushered you to the side and tried

to get you to sweep it under the rug.

293

:

Right?

294

:

Did that person get fired?

295

:

No.

296

:

Did that person, you see my point here?

297

:

So that to me, they're not reputable.

298

:

Okay?

299

:

They're doing what most

companies do in these situations.

300

:

And, you know, at the end of the day,

that's why we have this podcast to talk

301

:

about these things and make people aware

because a lot of times people are not,

302

:

they don't recognize these things go on.

303

:

And then when they hear, you know,

African American or people of color speak

304

:

up, they're like, Oh, they whinning it.

305

:

They're complaining.

306

:

They're this and not, because if we all

was speaking up, And this is one of the

307

:

learning lessons that you said, right?

308

:

Yeah.

309

:

Right.

310

:

That you learned.

311

:

I should have said something, I

should have went to hr, I should have

312

:

did this, I should have did that.

313

:

If everybody was doing that consistently,

then there'll be on notice and you

314

:

would, you wouldn't see a lot of

these things and you'd be training

315

:

in all different type of things.

316

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: And I need,

and I need to, and I need to own where

317

:

my responsibility lied with that.

318

:

Right.

319

:

I, I think because I, it was very early

in my career, I was very, very young.

320

:

You are so happy to have the opportunity

you almost, you almost yourself feel like

321

:

you don't, you may not belong there, you

know, because this is, this is the way the

322

:

world right this is how you're, you know,

people think or the, the, the oppression

323

:

that that has kind of grown up with us or,

or it's been forced upon us, I would say.

324

:

Um, so.

325

:

That I want to give myself the grace

that little bit of grace and say I

326

:

think it was my youth at my inexperience

Yeah, so so there's no you know,

327

:

Tony Tidbit: this is not

this is not about you.

328

:

All right, it's not about

holding you accountable, right?

329

:

One thing I want to, I want to jump

on before we go, um, to somewhere

330

:

else is that when you took that job,

were you thinking about race when

331

:

you, when you walked in the door?

332

:

Not at all.

333

:

Not at all, right?

334

:

You didn't come in with a chip on

your shoulder saying, you know, I

335

:

hope they, you know, don't beat me up

or I hope they, you know, accept me.

336

:

You came in to do a job.

337

:

Yep.

338

:

Right.

339

:

So that race was the furthest

thing from your mind.

340

:

Right.

341

:

Then all of a sudden the

world Reminded you about race.

342

:

Is that correct?

343

:

You know ugly way to use the n word.

344

:

That's an ugly way to

exactly exactly, right?

345

:

So speaking of that, let's let's let's

jettison a little bit right because

346

:

you know black women leaders Okay,

and you know at the end of the day,

347

:

I don't think everybody understands

what intersectionality means You Okay.

348

:

Um, you know, to be fair, I, I didn't know

what it means to like a year or two ago.

349

:

Right.

350

:

And, and then once you

hear it, it makes sense.

351

:

Right.

352

:

And so can you speak to a little bit

about intersectionality and then talk a

353

:

little bit about how that affects, uh, the

female black leader in corporate America?

354

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: So,

intersectionality has existed

355

:

forever, but the term probably was

not coined until more recently.

356

:

And it really just means that

there are more layers to this,

357

:

the identity of the person.

358

:

So, for me, um, I am a woman,

and I am a trans woman.

359

:

Woman of color so that's just two things

right we could layer in a things like

360

:

denomination or All the things that

describes not single access everything

361

:

they describe that just that that I

didn't you know, I didn't identify

362

:

who you are so the way that I think it

can be a disadvantage for you in the

363

:

workplace is We tend to get marginalized

or they want us to kind of conform.

364

:

Into, um, stereotypes, narrow,

narrow stereotypes, right.

365

:

Stereotypes that they have

created for us, right.

366

:

I hate the stereotype, but it, it, it.

367

:

It's always out there.

368

:

The end.

369

:

If you speak up, you're an angry

black woman, black man, too.

370

:

Well, I guess, but no, no, no, no.

371

:

I'm not.

372

:

Tony Tidbit: But no, no, you're

100 percent right, right?

373

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

But does that happen?

374

:

Not been a tons of conference rooms

and meetings where there are tons

375

:

of women or white women or men.

376

:

Go ahead.

377

:

Keep

378

:

Tony Tidbit: talking.

379

:

Don't stop now.

380

:

Speak it up.

381

:

Speak up.

382

:

They're running.

383

:

They're running the conference room.

384

:

They're the leader, right?

385

:

And to be fair, in my opinion,

they did nothing wrong.

386

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

Okay, they didn't.

387

:

They didn't, right?

388

:

Some of them are admired or revered or,

you know, they're, you know, strong and

389

:

they assert their authority the right way.

390

:

Tony Tidbit: But then when

a black woman does it, what?

391

:

We are angry.

392

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Okay?

393

:

We are angry.

394

:

And um, and I'm not saying

that we aren't sometimes.

395

:

Maybe we are.

396

:

But that doesn't define who we are.

397

:

We don't get to be called every time

we have, every time we challenge you.

398

:

Doesn't make us an angry black women.

399

:

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, and

I would say this too.

400

:

I don't so, you know, and I hear

you a point where you say maybe we

401

:

are but I don't that's not it's not

that okay at the end of the day.

402

:

Um, it's a stereotype to

diminish people of color.

403

:

Right.

404

:

Women, um, to, uh, knock

their leadership abilities.

405

:

If the same person, um, that was white

said the exact same thing with the

406

:

same type of passion, same type of

level of, of, of, of, of, from a vocal

407

:

audio standpoint, same type of level

to your point, they'd be revealed.

408

:

She ain't taking no junk today,

or you don't want to play with,

409

:

you know, a double way because

when he, you better get it done.

410

:

Right.

411

:

Those things are like great leaders.

412

:

When a woman, a black woman,

person of color says that they're

413

:

angry, they're aggressive.

414

:

Okay, there we because

they want us to be docile.

415

:

Yes.

416

:

Okay, because we should just

be happy that we're here.

417

:

Exactly.

418

:

Speak to so so go further on to the

intersectionality and how it affects.

419

:

Women of color,

420

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: you know,

there's a number of things that can

421

:

demean your, your, your self esteem.

422

:

Um, if you are at the same level,

uh, you know, when you're seeing your

423

:

counterparts, you've been given a

role, you're making half the money that

424

:

they're making your, or maybe you're

making the same money, but you're given

425

:

half the budget that they're given,

but you're expected to produce at the

426

:

same level that they are producing.

427

:

You're setting me up for failure.

428

:

You know, and, and you're doing it based

on, it's intersectionality, you're, you're

429

:

looking at me as a woman, you're looking

at me as a woman of color, you're looking

430

:

at, and you're looking at these things

as weaknesses, when actually you should

431

:

be looking at them as strengths, right?

432

:

You should be embracing the differences

and that's what diversity is about.

433

:

So, I think these are, those are just, A

few things, there's several things, but

434

:

those are just a few things that really

kind of ruffles my feathers, you know,

435

:

because I've been in that position before.

436

:

I've been in a position where, you

know, you want me to produce how many

437

:

commercials, and you, my budget is fixed.

438

:

You know, 500, 000.

439

:

How am I supposed to do that?

440

:

And then, then I'm supposed to,

you know, well, these are the

441

:

KPIs we have to measure, make

sure that everything's doing well.

442

:

There's no, you're almost like playing

with my career, playing with my job.

443

:

And I know that there is more to this

than just the fact that there's, there's

444

:

not enough budget, because why does

my counterpart have 2 million in their

445

:

budget or 3 million in their budget?

446

:

And, and then there's no,

there is no, if There is no,

447

:

I'll use the word grace again.

448

:

There is no grace, um, based on

the disparity of the budgets.

449

:

There's no grace at all.

450

:

You just, you didn't perform as well.

451

:

Tony Tidbit: So, so, cause I

want to make sure we're clear.

452

:

So back up a little bit.

453

:

Um, so when you ran into that

situation where your budget is less

454

:

than your counterpart, and I would

imagine you, you push back and say,

455

:

Hey, Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

456

:

What was the reason?

457

:

Did they give you any type of

reason, anything like that?

458

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: You know, I,

and I'll be very, in, in that situation,

459

:

I have been told before, make it happen.

460

:

There's no, no, this is, this is, this

is all there is to give, make it happen.

461

:

Or, um, we had to take from your

budget to, you know, there's

462

:

another initiative that's coming

up that we have to allocate for.

463

:

Tony Tidbit: Right,

464

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: but you

still need, need to make it happen.

465

:

So they still want you to

perform at a high level.

466

:

They still want you to perform at a high.

467

:

level

468

:

Tony Tidbit: then when you

said grace, they don't give

469

:

you any grace specifically.

470

:

What do you mean

471

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: when I say grace?

472

:

Meaning if you're giving me less

of a budget, then, then I, I

473

:

feel like the, the expectations

should be a KPI should be lower.

474

:

Based

475

:

Tony Tidbit: on the budget based

476

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: on the budget.

477

:

So if you're not doing that, that is

setting me up for failure You want

478

:

me to take money in my own pocket?

479

:

That's not gonna happen.

480

:

So there's no other way around

it You know How am I supposed to?

481

:

To accomplish these things that

you're asking me to accomplish if

482

:

you're not giving me the resources

and the tools that I need to do It

483

:

Tony Tidbit: so when you being a leader

being in that situation Do you leave

484

:

work at work.

485

:

Or do you carry that at home as well?

486

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I try my best

not to carry to carry work at home.

487

:

I don't like to talk about work.

488

:

I mean, Discovering Eden it was

different when I was a corporate America.

489

:

No,

490

:

Tony Tidbit: no, no.

491

:

That's your baby.

492

:

That's my baby.

493

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Um, I tried

not to do that, but I, I mean, to

494

:

be quite honest, When it, when it,

when situations like that, it, it,

495

:

it flows, it, it becomes more than

just, this is just a work issue.

496

:

This becomes almost personal.

497

:

So

498

:

Tony Tidbit: do, so, so

that's the next step.

499

:

Go, keep going.

500

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Right.

501

:

So when it becomes personal, then

I, then I am carrying it home

502

:

because I'm feeling, undervalued.

503

:

I'm feeling, um, I'm mostly

insignificant, but I, but I'm feeling,

504

:

um, unworthy of the fight, right?

505

:

So my boss should be able to

fight for more money for me

506

:

if he wants to do that, right?

507

:

He doesn't want to ruffle feathers.

508

:

So those are the things that kind of

seep into a woman of color that she

509

:

takes home at night that she's sleeping.

510

:

And these are the ruminating

thoughts that are coming back.

511

:

How am I going to accomplish this?

512

:

How am I going to do this to, you know,

how am I going to make this happen?

513

:

You don't want to fail.

514

:

That's not what you want to do, even

though you know that you've been given

515

:

a card that is hard to, a hand that's

hard to win, but you're still trying.

516

:

And you know, that's been our

517

:

Tony Tidbit: identity since we've

come here to the United States.

518

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: We're

519

:

Tony Tidbit: good at

520

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: it.

521

:

We've become good at it.

522

:

We've

523

:

Tony Tidbit: become good at it, right?

524

:

It's overcoming with nothing.

525

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Yes.

526

:

Tony Tidbit: Right?

527

:

And turning water into wine and

stuff to that nature, right?

528

:

But at the end of the day,

that doesn't matter, okay?

529

:

At the end of the day, So

think about it for a second.

530

:

I want to hear your thoughts on this.

531

:

Um, how, so, um, if I was hiring you,

right, to be my SVP or CRO or chief

532

:

marketing officer, what it may be,

how can I get the best out of you?

533

:

What do I need to do to

get the best out of you?

534

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: You need

to support, you need to equip

535

:

me with the essentials, right?

536

:

When I say essentials, I mean,

I'm taking into consideration that

537

:

we may not always be able to get

everything that we want, right?

538

:

There may not be enough budget for that,

but then there's the essentials, right?

539

:

So we need manpower.

540

:

I need a team.

541

:

I need you.

542

:

Are you going to give me a headcount?

543

:

That's one.

544

:

Are you going to give me a suitable

budget for what we are expecting?

545

:

Forecasting.

546

:

Are you going to give me autonomy?

547

:

Right?

548

:

Because then there's this

illusion of power, right?

549

:

We think we have power.

550

:

We've been given this

title, but it's a mirage.

551

:

Tony Tidbit: Right.

552

:

So, so in other words, and you tell me

because I think I know what you're saying.

553

:

Number one, you need to support me.

554

:

Yes, you need to have my back.

555

:

You need to empower me.

556

:

Let me make the decisions.

557

:

Let me do what I feel best, right?

558

:

But I feel what I think is best

you unleash me and you have my

559

:

back and you support me, right?

560

:

I have

561

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: one more go

ahead and you need to nurture me, right?

562

:

So my career didn't stop here.

563

:

You know, you need to you need to nurture

you need to foster an environment.

564

:

That's all about continued learning.

565

:

Um, and that doesn't happen all

the time for women in general, but

566

:

for women of color, we don't get

those opportunities all the time.

567

:

So, if you, if you are doing all those

things, you are setting me up for success.

568

:

Tony Tidbit: Right.

569

:

So, going back to your point,

back to the budget thing, right?

570

:

When you didn't, when you didn't

feel that you were being supported,

571

:

that they didn't have your back,

that they wasn't empowering you, that

572

:

they wasn't nurturing you, Was that

company getting the best individual?

573

:

That they could have gotten.

574

:

You're still gonna bring it anyway.

575

:

Right.

576

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: No, they weren't.

577

:

Right.

578

:

Right.

579

:

Right.

580

:

Right.

581

:

Tony Tidbit: You're still

gonna bring it anyway.

582

:

Right.

583

:

But you're bringing it with, with,

with a lot of baggage here because

584

:

you're thinking as you coming

in, you're gonna, we, like I said

585

:

earlier, we, we turn water into wine.

586

:

All right.

587

:

But at the end of the day,

if you want to unleash me and

588

:

where I can be an asset, Okay.

589

:

a major asset for the organization, right?

590

:

These are the things that you

need to bring to the table to

591

:

support me as a black woman leader.

592

:

And by doing that, guess what?

593

:

Your organization, your department,

whatever the case may be, I'm

594

:

going to tell you, I'm going to

take it to a whole nother level.

595

:

Is that correct?

596

:

Did I make that up?

597

:

That

598

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

is absolutely correct.

599

:

And, and, and, and the, what are

the repercussions of not equipping

600

:

your, your, your, they're going

to bring it and do their best.

601

:

But get burnt out and then where does

that you know, then there's then you're

602

:

talking about morale and productivity

goes down all these things start to

603

:

happen after Where they leave you get

burnt on you leave but when you when

604

:

you give them what they need you have

got You've got a devoted Employee there

605

:

that is going to work their hardest.

606

:

You're going to get a lot of productivity.

607

:

You're going to get a leader

that is inspiring their team.

608

:

You will have a leader that

is developing leaders because

609

:

leaders should develop leaders.

610

:

And at the end of the day, it is

going to benefit your company so much

611

:

more if you would just factor all of

the pieces in them that your leader

612

:

needs to succeed and to be successful.

613

:

And it's that simple.

614

:

I think.

615

:

Tony Tidbit: No, you're a hundred percent.

616

:

Right, right.

617

:

Um, Let me ask you this.

618

:

You said earlier about the company

that you were working with when your

619

:

first racial turning point happened.

620

:

Um, you said you were the

only person in the room.

621

:

You probably wasn't a

leader at that point.

622

:

Right?

623

:

But let me ask you this.

624

:

Have you been in organizations

where you were the only.

625

:

You know, person of color

from a leadership standpoint.

626

:

Okay.

627

:

So how did that make you feel

and how did that affect you?

628

:

Knowing that you're the

only one they hired you.

629

:

You don't see anybody that look like you.

630

:

Yeah.

631

:

Okay How did that affect you in

terms of navigating and being

632

:

effective at that organization?

633

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: and So

that's tokenism right there, right?

634

:

And so you can feel that

that's almost palpable.

635

:

You know, you, you know, that you, you,

you're doing your work with the mindset

636

:

that you are just filling a quota.

637

:

All right.

638

:

And that's how I felt most

often that I'm, I am here.

639

:

I don't know if my work is truly valued

as much as it is needed to check the box.

640

:

Tony Tidbit: Uh, and

that's, that's, that's,

641

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

that's, that's, that's, that's,

642

:

that's, that's Um, that's fake.

643

:

Tony Tidbit: So it's

definitely fake, right?

644

:

So you just said something.

645

:

You said tokenism.

646

:

100%.

647

:

You felt, you felt like I'm

just fulfilling a quota.

648

:

Right?

649

:

So, which makes sense.

650

:

How did your fellow employees see you?

651

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: What,

you mean my counterparts?

652

:

Your

653

:

Tony Tidbit: counterparts, I'm sorry,

not employees, your counterparts.

654

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Um,

I think, I think they saw me.

655

:

I think they saw me as a token.

656

:

I mean, I'm just going to be honest.

657

:

No, but, go ahead.

658

:

I think that they did and the reason

why, one of the reasons why I think so is

659

:

because one of the, as the only, as the

only person of color, it's very isolating.

660

:

You feel alone, right?

661

:

So, just like when you have an issue

on the job and you can, you know,

662

:

talk with your cohorts about it and

you, I don't have that experience.

663

:

Um, So the relationship, the

camaraderie is not the same, um, and

664

:

those, those nuances it's noticed.

665

:

Tony Tidbit: It's,

666

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: it's still,

it's just, we're not operating.

667

:

There's not a synergy.

668

:

So it affects in so many different ways.

669

:

So they definitely think I, that I,

and I've been on teams where they may

670

:

have been other, one other woman, most

times, It's just two women and I'm

671

:

probably always the only woman of color.

672

:

And um, but you know

it's a mixed bag, right?

673

:

Because as a woman of color you

almost feel like, like, I made it.

674

:

You know, like I'll just take

it for the sake of taking it.

675

:

Because, because, this is, you

know, this is how you kind of

676

:

go into, you don't know if the

opportunity will present itself again.

677

:

Tony Tidbit: Mm hmm.

678

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: So I say that to

say when you are nurturing your employee,

679

:

employee, and they're getting the right

professional development and they're,

680

:

you know, uh, learning how to navigate,

navigate issues like imposter syndrome

681

:

or inadequacy or whatever it may be.

682

:

They're, they're, they're able to

deal with those feelings, with those

683

:

emotions, you know, um, and, and maybe

it would create better synergy, or

684

:

maybe, you know, it could, it could

lend itself to building a better team.

685

:

Right.

686

:

But, um, most women of color

do not have those resources.

687

:

Tony Tidbit: And so one of the things

when we talked about the description

688

:

of this episode is that how black

women leaders are undermined, okay?

689

:

So if you are the only black leader,

if you feel that you're a token, and

690

:

then your counterparts feel that you're

a token, do they think you really

691

:

got the job because you're qualified?

692

:

That you really, you have a, you bring

an expertise to the table, that you bring

693

:

a certain perspective that they wouldn't

have, or do you think that they figure you

694

:

only got the job because you were black?

695

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

That's exactly what they think.

696

:

And they demonstrate that, right?

697

:

Because in, in those positions,

I felt many times as though

698

:

you said undermined, right?

699

:

Opinion being dismissed or

700

:

Tony Tidbit: we say

opinion being dismissed.

701

:

Like what do you mean

702

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: like if

we're in a conference room and we're

703

:

brainstorming and everyone is giving

their suggestion and my suggestion

704

:

might be very valid, but it may take

a couple of people to remind them.

705

:

Well, that actually was a good idea.

706

:

Let's listen to it again.

707

:

So it takes so much time with that.

708

:

So those they know why you're

there and and it was several times

709

:

where I was even more qualified.

710

:

Or had better credentials.

711

:

And It's that, it's that,

it's that, um, that stench.

712

:

No,

713

:

Tony Tidbit: no, no, no.

714

:

You smell it.

715

:

I've been in situations like that.

716

:

You smell it, right?

717

:

You see it.

718

:

You see how you're,

they're tuning you out.

719

:

Yeah.

720

:

Okay.

721

:

You be your ideas and stuff

don't matter as much, right?

722

:

Your thoughts and stuff

don't matter as much.

723

:

And then.

724

:

But that undermines your leadership.

725

:

If, here's the thing, if,

and, and let me ask you this.

726

:

Yeah.

727

:

When you were in a leader leadership

position, you had a team Mm-Hmm.

728

:

is that correct?

729

:

Mm-Hmm.

730

:

. So that's where it does it.

731

:

Go ahead.

732

:

Talk to us a little bit about that.

733

:

How does this affect you and the team?

734

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: It it,

it can, because now when you're

735

:

leading a team and you're expecting

your team to respect you, right.

736

:

You know, not only respect

you, but you know, obviously,

737

:

you know, you know, follow.

738

:

Instruction, you know, produce, but they

can pick up on, they start to pick up.

739

:

Now, I have not had experiences

where they have adapted that

740

:

attitude and treated me differently

because I always kept a really good

741

:

Tony Tidbit: relationship with them.

742

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Always did that.

743

:

But I have had moments where they have

come to me and said, This is not right.

744

:

Why is such and such team doing this?

745

:

And, you know what I mean?

746

:

So it's obvious.

747

:

And, and, I've had, I've had team

members come to me that are not.

748

:

Minority.

749

:

Yeah, it doesn't matter.

750

:

They see it.

751

:

They see it.

752

:

They see it out,

753

:

Tony Tidbit: right?

754

:

And they call it out and they

see the differences, right?

755

:

But again, we talk it undermined.

756

:

Yeah.

757

:

So how is that making

you an effective leader?

758

:

Right.

759

:

Right.

760

:

When you have all these different

type of things, um, that happen

761

:

and they don't happen in the

vacuum, everybody sees them, right?

762

:

And then talk a little bit about

the microaggressions, right?

763

:

The little subtle ways.

764

:

I mean, let's be honest.

765

:

And when you're on that call, You

know, it's a long time ago, right?

766

:

That wasn't subtle.

767

:

That wasn't subtle, right?

768

:

That was flat out, right?

769

:

But talk a little bit about some of

the microaggressions that you, you have

770

:

experienced as a black woman leader.

771

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I think,

you know, microaggressions that I've

772

:

experienced might be just comments

about style, um, or comments about,

773

:

uh, and not even just style, like when

I was taking my son to look at HBCUs.

774

:

And The first reaction sometimes when

you tell certain people HP's first, they

775

:

don't know what it is sometimes you gotta

break it down But then when you do break

776

:

it down It's almost like, I don't know

why, you know, like disqualifying the,

777

:

the, the, the validity of the school.

778

:

So, and those are, you know, those

are, those are more annoying than

779

:

anything, but I, I think the more

microaggressions is, is when people touch

780

:

your hair, they always talk about that.

781

:

So they touch

782

:

Tony Tidbit: your hair

and stuff like that.

783

:

I

784

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

have definitely had that.

785

:

And that, it wasn't this hair either.

786

:

It was, you know, like corporate

hair, like straight corporate.

787

:

Tony Tidbit: Yeah.

788

:

Yeah.

789

:

So it, it just.

790

:

Yeah, they touch your hair.

791

:

Doesn't matter which, what

type of hairstyle you have.

792

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: No.

793

:

People

794

:

Tony Tidbit: wanna touch your hair.

795

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I mean, I could

give the benefit of the doubt and say,

796

:

you know, they just thought it was lovely.

797

:

I don't know.

798

:

But it's like, you're

not supposed to do that.

799

:

You know?

800

:

It's, it's, it's inappropriate.

801

:

Have you touch another

802

:

Tony Tidbit: woman's hair,

a white woman's hair at all?

803

:

I don't

804

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: think so.

805

:

Okay.

806

:

Okay.

807

:

Maybe my girlfriend, you know.

808

:

Okay.

809

:

Not my, but not

810

:

Tony Tidbit: just somebody

coming outta the blue.

811

:

You look so great.

812

:

And they wanna, yeah.

813

:

Yeah.

814

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

No, I, I do not think so.

815

:

Um.

816

:

It's, it's, it's some things, it's

hard to define sometimes what you

817

:

would consider to be micro and what

you consider to be a macroaggression.

818

:

Right?

819

:

Because some of them can kind of

like cross the line or overlap.

820

:

Tony Tidbit: Can you, can you define both?

821

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Yeah,

so a macro, I think a macro.

822

:

Okay, so the instance that happened with

me that we just talked about when they

823

:

said, uh, when they used the N word.

824

:

That is a macro to me.

825

:

But if they didn't know that I was

in the room and it was, would that be

826

:

also considered like a microaggression?

827

:

No.

828

:

I think the, I

829

:

Tony Tidbit: think the micro

is the stuff, uh, why your son

830

:

going to an HBCU or touching your

hair and stuff of that nature.

831

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: And I think

maybe macro would be counterparts

832

:

to question, why did you get

so much money for that budget?

833

:

Or why are you getting another headcount?

834

:

Why are you getting

another full time employee?

835

:

And then they will actually go question

and go to the boss and say, I don't

836

:

understand why is Sony getting another F.

837

:

T.

838

:

E.

839

:

I need more help on my team.

840

:

So those are more, and I say that that

to me is a macro question because I

841

:

don't see you doing that to the other

to the other are other team members

842

:

who don't who don't look like me.

843

:

Right.

844

:

I do not see that.

845

:

And They can be very vocal about it too.

846

:

They will make a big deal, like go to the

boss and say like, What's up with this?

847

:

Yet they're not, they're not angry.

848

:

They're, they're just voicing their,

they're just voicing their opinion.

849

:

So in other words, They

are absolutely angry.

850

:

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, but just so I'm clear.

851

:

In other words, they, they go to

push back about, You know, the

852

:

resources that you may get, right?

853

:

But if you did that, you

would be the angry person.

854

:

If they did it, it's just

a regular conversation.

855

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

That's one and two.

856

:

I think that they're so used to,

they're so used to us not getting the

857

:

resources that when we, when you do

get one or two little things, they, How

858

:

did that happen or why did that happen?

859

:

I need it.

860

:

I need an explanation, you know,

861

:

Tony Tidbit: you know, one of the things

I've always had to deal with, um, you

862

:

know, it's the mental, uh, challenge

when you see things, you feel things,

863

:

little, little bitty, like little needles.

864

:

This is hitting you over

and over again, right?

865

:

You see it, you feel it, right?

866

:

Um, at the same time, I've had some,

um, and you spoke to this a minute ago.

867

:

I had some, you know.

868

:

People on my team or other

leaders come to me like an ally.

869

:

I like using the word accomplice, right?

870

:

And say hey, man, how are you doing?

871

:

Hey, you know that makes me feel a lot

better Because I'm not I don't feel like

872

:

I'm walking through the woods all by

myself Have you talked a little bit about

873

:

have you had different allies or different

individuals speak up on your behalf?

874

:

You know, push back against the status

quo regarding some of these issues.

875

:

Do you mean a minority also, or you

just mean in general, I'm talking

876

:

outside of a person of color.

877

:

I'm talking to a white person

that's really helping champion

878

:

and they may not be a leader.

879

:

They could be somebody

that's on your team.

880

:

Like you said earlier,

881

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: right.

882

:

Um, I could have that.

883

:

And honestly, I've had a boss or

two that, um, were, um, Minority

884

:

as well, but not as minority as me

and That may be more say, um Can

885

:

pass, you know, they can maybe pass.

886

:

Am I allowed to say that on?

887

:

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, so wait, so i'm just

being clear here So what are you saying?

888

:

They're light skinned.

889

:

They're light skinned

or they're dark skinned.

890

:

What do you mean?

891

:

So

892

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

they're so they are.

893

:

Um

894

:

Tony Tidbit: Hold on a second.

895

:

You want a black executive

perspective podcast?

896

:

You just speak your mind here

897

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: And I, when

I say can pass, you know, he can

898

:

pass, he can, he can kind of, he

899

:

Tony Tidbit: can, he can look white.

900

:

Yeah.

901

:

And he, he's part of, they feel he's

part of their white affiliation.

902

:

Right.

903

:

Right.

904

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I should say.

905

:

And he can fit in there, but he

also knows, but he also has, he

906

:

also knows who he is as well.

907

:

So he can kind of resonate with what

I'm feeling to a certain degree.

908

:

Right.

909

:

So he has fought for me before

for budgets to the higher up.

910

:

He has done that in those moments.

911

:

I have felt like that

In an ally, so to speak.

912

:

Um, I have not had a lot of

moments like that, though.

913

:

I really haven't.

914

:

I think a lot of times people are,

people are about what they're doing.

915

:

They care about themselves and, you

know, what, what they have going on.

916

:

And they're not always

going to be willing to.

917

:

You know, step up, you know, and if

they are, um, your, your counterpart,

918

:

they're not trying to give up

what they have for you, you know?

919

:

So that's, you know, that's basically

why I think I haven't had too many of

920

:

those experiences, but I did have one

or two that were meaningful enough.

921

:

Tony Tidbit: So, you know, You think

about it and you said illustrious career.

922

:

Mm-Hmm?

923

:

. Okay.

924

:

You said illustrious.

925

:

No, you said it said,

you said, can I say it?

926

:

You know, you said illustrious.

927

:

I said you can say illustrious.

928

:

We don't, we don't, we

don't build ourselves up.

929

:

Okay.

930

:

I did.

931

:

So, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

932

:

You said illustrious, right?

933

:

And so based on all the

things that you've dealt with.

934

:

Okay, that most people don't know about

as being a black woman leader, right?

935

:

Why do you say illustrious?

936

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I say

illustrious because I have worked for

937

:

the majority of the companies that I've

worked or have all been Fortune 50.

938

:

And As a woman of color to

work for these organizations.

939

:

Um, I think that speaks to volume to

my career, um, my credentials, um, and

940

:

my, you know, my commitment to my work.

941

:

Um, and

942

:

I've done some great things, you know,

I've done some great things while I

943

:

was with those organizations, you know,

launched the first set of commercials for

944

:

one of the companies with radio and TV.

945

:

Um, Help to, you know, rebrand our,

you know, look and feel for the kind

946

:

of a lot of great things that were

an undertaking that were successful.

947

:

And so I say less just for not just

for myself and the work that I've

948

:

done, but also for the institutions

that I've been privileged to work for.

949

:

And that

950

:

Tony Tidbit: is awesome.

951

:

And, you know, at the end of the day,

think about what you could have done.

952

:

Had you been supported,

seen as an equal, right?

953

:

People support you as they

would do with any person, right?

954

:

You've had an illustrious career and

still had to deal with all these things.

955

:

That's, yeah, that's a great point.

956

:

See my point, here it is.

957

:

Okay.

958

:

Yeah.

959

:

And, and so, so what?

960

:

She made it so what people deal with.

961

:

So stop.

962

:

Alright, stop.

963

:

Okay.

964

:

At the end of the day,

just getting through the

965

:

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: doors,

966

:

Tony Tidbit: she, these thank you.

967

:

Right.

968

:

These things that, you know, women of

color deal with, black women deal with.

969

:

Yeah.

970

:

Yeah.

971

:

All right.

972

:

And you know, when we backing up to

intersectionality, you know, um, one

973

:

of the things I had to learn and, and,

you know, and look everything you said.

974

:

Everything I've experienced as a

black male in corporate America from

975

:

tokenism, tokenism to all yards.

976

:

But here's the difference

is that I'm still a male.

977

:

Okay, which gives me some

advantages versus a female.

978

:

Right.

979

:

So if you start thinking that's where

the intersectionality comes into play.

980

:

All right.

981

:

So and then when some of my friends who

were, you know, not who were who are,

982

:

you know, African American leaders, women

of color, and they share certain things.

983

:

And, and I'm like, wow, you know

what, I didn't even think I see that.

984

:

My stuff as a male, but when I hear

about the things that our sisters

985

:

of color go through, I'm like, wow.

986

:

Right?

987

:

And so you carry this a lot of, a

lot of, a lot of women, black women

988

:

are carrying a bag on their shoulder.

989

:

And still bringing it every day.

990

:

Yes.

991

:

Right.

992

:

And can sit here on a black executive

perspective and say, I had an

993

:

illustrious career and trust me,

we've got a lot of women leaders

994

:

come on here and they've said a lot

of the same things that you've said.

995

:

Right.

996

:

And they got PhDs, they're CEOs,

they're chief marketing officers.

997

:

They got a ton of stuff going on.

998

:

Right.

999

:

But that doesn't, uh, the, uh, diminish.

:

00:45:25,715 --> 00:45:28,855

What we had to go through what

people, not just what you have, what

:

00:45:28,855 --> 00:45:30,465

people still have to go through.

:

00:45:30,745 --> 00:45:31,155

Right.

:

00:45:31,595 --> 00:45:33,575

And this is why we speak

up on these things.

:

00:45:33,875 --> 00:45:34,675

Speak a little bit.

:

00:45:34,675 --> 00:45:35,805

Did you have something you

want to say about that?

:

00:45:35,805 --> 00:45:36,055

Go ahead.

:

00:45:36,105 --> 00:45:37,695

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Well, not

necessarily about that, but I was going

:

00:45:37,695 --> 00:45:43,865

to say, um, you know, about 10 years ago,

uh, with the Sheryl Sandberg, the next

:

00:45:44,235 --> 00:45:45,705

came on the scene for the book, Lean In.

:

00:45:46,395 --> 00:45:50,385

I don't know that you've heard that

she's, she's an executive at, really?

:

00:45:50,665 --> 00:45:51,895

So she wrote this book called lean in.

:

00:45:51,895 --> 00:45:52,365

Educate me.

:

00:45:53,945 --> 00:45:55,655

She wrote it's a great,

it's great principles.

:

00:45:55,655 --> 00:45:59,115

It's about women, you know, leaning

into your voice, finding your voice,

:

00:45:59,115 --> 00:46:03,075

being authentic and, and, you know,

doing it all, having your career.

:

00:46:03,225 --> 00:46:04,015

She worked at Facebook.

:

00:46:04,055 --> 00:46:04,455

I forget.

:

00:46:04,455 --> 00:46:05,945

She might've been like the

chief operating officer of

:

00:46:05,945 --> 00:46:07,175

Facebook or something like that.

:

00:46:07,895 --> 00:46:10,095

And it went wild.

:

00:46:10,175 --> 00:46:10,505

Gotcha.

:

00:46:11,475 --> 00:46:17,565

I think she met up with this head

talk and it's good principles, but.

:

00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:22,920

It's not that that's not the

experience for women of color, right?

:

00:46:23,380 --> 00:46:28,090

She is speaking from a

place of privilege, right?

:

00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,030

Because she's, I don't know,

Ivy League and all these things.

:

00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,150

Um, she's, she's also

speaking from the table.

:

00:46:33,170 --> 00:46:34,080

She's already sitting there.

:

00:46:34,090 --> 00:46:35,630

You know, she, she has that seat.

:

00:46:36,140 --> 00:46:42,810

And women of color, we, we have to

come against, you know, we don't

:

00:46:42,810 --> 00:46:44,130

have the same education all the time.

:

00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:45,370

You know, as some of these.

:

00:46:46,190 --> 00:46:49,670

The opportunities advantages

to some other women have had.

:

00:46:49,670 --> 00:46:49,860

Right.

:

00:46:49,870 --> 00:46:52,120

We have education, but

it may not be Ivy League.

:

00:46:52,130 --> 00:46:55,280

Does that mean that we're not,

we cannot be qualified for the

:

00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:56,500

position or we're not as great.

:

00:46:57,510 --> 00:47:00,950

We don't always have our voice

is not always heard because we

:

00:47:00,950 --> 00:47:02,410

don't have that seat at the table.

:

00:47:03,230 --> 00:47:04,340

And so it just really.

:

00:47:05,345 --> 00:47:08,515

It was a eye opening for me, the book.

:

00:47:08,525 --> 00:47:11,985

I really, the book was good and it's

great principles, but there needs to

:

00:47:11,985 --> 00:47:15,675

be the, the, the homegirl version.

:

00:47:16,205 --> 00:47:17,215

No, no, no, no, no.

:

00:47:17,215 --> 00:47:17,815

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

:

00:47:18,075 --> 00:47:20,095

You know, with more strategies.

:

00:47:20,125 --> 00:47:20,655

Yes.

:

00:47:21,345 --> 00:47:26,065

To help a woman of color in

those, you can't tell us to find

:

00:47:26,065 --> 00:47:28,495

our voice because a lot of women

of color are using their voice.

:

00:47:28,555 --> 00:47:31,005

They're trying to, but

then they're labeled angry.

:

00:47:32,155 --> 00:47:35,645

It doesn't, you know, it's not a

cookie cutter thing, you know, so.

:

00:47:36,530 --> 00:47:37,880

We're still trying to find our way.

:

00:47:37,910 --> 00:47:39,590

We're making, you know, strides.

:

00:47:39,620 --> 00:47:42,340

We are, but there's still

a lot of work to be done.

:

00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:45,950

Tony Tidbit: So speaking of work to be

done, you know, you, you're, you're the

:

00:47:45,950 --> 00:47:49,430

CEO of Discover, uh, Discover Eden, right?

:

00:47:49,430 --> 00:47:53,240

And you spoke about a lot of the

things that you help, you know,

:

00:47:53,250 --> 00:47:54,770

leaders be able to overcome.

:

00:47:54,770 --> 00:47:58,050

So talk a little, give us a little,

like if you had a magic wand.

:

00:47:58,180 --> 00:47:58,500

Yeah.

:

00:47:58,950 --> 00:47:59,330

Okay.

:

00:47:59,330 --> 00:48:06,755

Sonya's got a magic wand and you can

change Okay, or there's a, uh, uh,

:

00:48:06,765 --> 00:48:10,285

uh, uh, a woman leader, black woman

leader is listening to this podcast

:

00:48:10,285 --> 00:48:13,605

or watching this podcast and they're

saying, yep, I go through that.

:

00:48:13,605 --> 00:48:14,155

I've been through that.

:

00:48:14,405 --> 00:48:19,235

What recommendations would you make

for them to deal with some of these

:

00:48:19,235 --> 00:48:21,475

things in a better, better light?

:

00:48:21,675 --> 00:48:23,535

And then more importantly,

try to overcome that.

:

00:48:23,535 --> 00:48:26,625

And look, there's a big system, but

what advice would you give them?

:

00:48:26,965 --> 00:48:30,795

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: So

There's, there's, the word embrace

:

00:48:31,725 --> 00:48:35,295

means to literally embrace,

to hold on, to take on to.

:

00:48:35,625 --> 00:48:38,765

So to take on, embrace diversity, right?

:

00:48:38,765 --> 00:48:44,980

So that means, Stop hiring one

black person to be the head of DEI

:

00:48:45,860 --> 00:48:49,210

and calling that your DEI program.

:

00:48:49,420 --> 00:48:49,660

Tony Tidbit: Right.

:

00:48:50,450 --> 00:48:50,820

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Right?

:

00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:58,670

Stop asking middle aged white men

that have been in their positions

:

00:48:58,670 --> 00:49:03,730

for the last 20 years to be the

decision makers on how to cultivate

:

00:49:03,780 --> 00:49:07,110

.

and empower their high achieving black women or women of color.

:

00:49:08,010 --> 00:49:11,220

There needs to be more

representation in those rooms, on

:

00:49:11,220 --> 00:49:12,730

those boards, on those committees.

:

00:49:13,270 --> 00:49:16,640

That's what I would say is you need

to bring those people in so that they

:

00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,240

can bring more perspectives, right?

:

00:49:18,450 --> 00:49:20,140

We don't know what we don't know.

:

00:49:20,150 --> 00:49:24,210

Some, you know, some people maybe really

don't know how to embrace diversity.

:

00:49:24,210 --> 00:49:25,550

We can all learn, you know?

:

00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:27,930

And so that's the grace, right?

:

00:49:27,930 --> 00:49:28,680

You need a little grace.

:

00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,895

If you don't know, then Bring the right

people in to help you bring in the right

:

00:49:32,895 --> 00:49:38,495

programs like Discovering Eden, you know,

set it up so that your women that that are

:

00:49:38,535 --> 00:49:43,985

on the career path forward have no choice

but to go through these programs, you

:

00:49:43,985 --> 00:49:48,315

know, that they have to equip themselves

with the right, uh, soft skills,

:

00:49:48,345 --> 00:49:54,535

technical skills, um, leadership skills,

executive presence, all of those things.

:

00:49:54,995 --> 00:49:59,745

Get senior leadership to C suite

those men in system change management.

:

00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:02,070

Training, right?

:

00:50:02,070 --> 00:50:05,180

So that they can start to change

the way that they manage and

:

00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,450

implement some bias training,

:

00:50:08,700 --> 00:50:09,080

Tony Tidbit: right?

:

00:50:09,370 --> 00:50:12,810

And that's to me one of the, I mean,

I've seen them do it at a high level.

:

00:50:13,110 --> 00:50:16,730

But I'm talking grassroots at the

lower level and it needs to be

:

00:50:16,730 --> 00:50:20,600

consistent because just doing one

bias training and people don't get it.

:

00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:21,000

Right.

:

00:50:21,010 --> 00:50:21,400

No, there

:

00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,980

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: needs to be

like, you know, some kind of interaction

:

00:50:23,980 --> 00:50:26,400

or some kind of, there needs to be KPIs.

:

00:50:26,410 --> 00:50:29,060

Like we want to see the, one of

the metrics, did everyone take it?

:

00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:30,160

What did they learn from it?

:

00:50:30,260 --> 00:50:32,270

How do we incorporate these

things that we're learning?

:

00:50:32,270 --> 00:50:33,850

The team should be

operating differently now.

:

00:50:33,850 --> 00:50:35,250

You should be leading

at a different level.

:

00:50:35,765 --> 00:50:42,215

There should be, there should be, um,

clear, you know, a clear visibility on the

:

00:50:42,225 --> 00:50:46,755

changes or the impact that the programs

are making because yeah, we all take

:

00:50:46,755 --> 00:50:50,105

those classes that do as a compliance

you got to do at the job like every,

:

00:50:50,405 --> 00:50:54,485

every, whatever, every couple of months

and you got to go through and talk.

:

00:50:54,625 --> 00:50:55,205

We do it.

:

00:50:55,215 --> 00:50:56,475

But do we really do anything with it?

:

00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:57,260

Tony Tidbit: Right.

:

00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:58,560

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: You

know, so you need good programs.

:

00:50:58,570 --> 00:50:58,780

Well,

:

00:50:58,780 --> 00:51:00,090

Tony Tidbit: there's no follow up, right?

:

00:51:01,460 --> 00:51:02,100

It needs to be followed.

:

00:51:02,100 --> 00:51:02,960

It's a check the box.

:

00:51:02,980 --> 00:51:03,090

And

:

00:51:03,090 --> 00:51:04,310

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: it

starts with the top, right?

:

00:51:04,490 --> 00:51:05,260

Exactly.

:

00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,190

The fish rots from the

top, somebody told me.

:

00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,230

It starts from there and it trickles down.

:

00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:10,620

If we can get them straight.

:

00:51:11,025 --> 00:51:12,215

Then we can start.

:

00:51:12,235 --> 00:51:13,385

They can set the standard

:

00:51:13,445 --> 00:51:14,285

Tony Tidbit: exactly.

:

00:51:14,665 --> 00:51:16,135

So final thoughts.

:

00:51:16,425 --> 00:51:17,965

What do you want to leave

the listeners today?

:

00:51:17,975 --> 00:51:19,195

You gave some great advice.

:

00:51:19,415 --> 00:51:21,485

You gave you gave great examples.

:

00:51:21,485 --> 00:51:24,885

You you really elevated

a lot of these issues.

:

00:51:25,275 --> 00:51:29,395

Um, that women, black women deal

with, you know, some final thoughts.

:

00:51:29,555 --> 00:51:30,385

What do you want them to know?

:

00:51:30,725 --> 00:51:31,585

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Final thoughts.

:

00:51:33,995 --> 00:51:35,165

This is a two fold.

:

00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:42,790

Equipping, empowering, cultivating,

um, high achieving women.

:

00:51:43,030 --> 00:51:46,210

It's, it's a, in an organization,

it's a twofold exchange.

:

00:51:46,650 --> 00:51:50,940

It's, it's just, it's not only

for the individual, the company

:

00:51:51,090 --> 00:51:52,340

will also benefit from this.

:

00:51:52,990 --> 00:51:54,500

So don't shy away from it.

:

00:51:54,500 --> 00:51:55,950

This is not something that

you're just giving away and

:

00:51:55,950 --> 00:51:57,040

you're not going to get back.

:

00:51:57,260 --> 00:52:03,100

It's important to put these,

these, these tools in place

:

00:52:04,020 --> 00:52:05,330

for your, not only for your.

:

00:52:05,405 --> 00:52:09,455

Your teams to thrive before

the company to grow and and

:

00:52:09,455 --> 00:52:13,195

just for just to be progressive

:

00:52:13,645 --> 00:52:13,785

Tony Tidbit: to

:

00:52:13,785 --> 00:52:15,565

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: be a

progressive organization, you know,

:

00:52:16,355 --> 00:52:20,615

the DEI has become this buzzword over

the last few years and over buzz term.

:

00:52:20,955 --> 00:52:23,195

And, um, it needs to be more than that.

:

00:52:23,225 --> 00:52:28,945

So, you know, help, help,

help, uh, women of color loyal.

:

00:52:28,945 --> 00:52:31,080

If you take care of us,

We'll take care of you.

:

00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:33,120

Tony Tidbit: That's just

the bottom line, right?

:

00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:34,200

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

This That's the bottom line.

:

00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:35,220

We're strong too.

:

00:52:35,250 --> 00:52:36,220

We're very strong.

:

00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:37,940

We're strong women.

:

00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,000

We know how to do a lot with not much.

:

00:52:41,060 --> 00:52:44,080

So can you imagine what we'll do if

you give us everything that we need?

:

00:52:44,270 --> 00:52:44,870

Tony Tidbit: Exactly.

:

00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,680

So speaking of what, uh, you need,

tell us how a Black Executive

:

00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:50,220

Perspective Podcast can help you.

:

00:52:50,810 --> 00:52:51,830

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

How you can help me?

:

00:52:52,220 --> 00:52:59,855

Um, you can help me by sharing that

my, uh, New LMS, which is a learning

:

00:52:59,855 --> 00:53:02,045

management system is about to be launched.

:

00:53:02,045 --> 00:53:05,365

We have our own proprietary, uh,

SAS product that we've built.

:

00:53:05,645 --> 00:53:06,695

It's near completion.

:

00:53:06,725 --> 00:53:10,475

And so any new client that, uh,

joins discovering Eden, you will

:

00:53:10,475 --> 00:53:13,565

have your own portal, you will have

direct access, you'll have access

:

00:53:13,595 --> 00:53:15,635

to the courses and the programs.

:

00:53:15,635 --> 00:53:19,425

And you will also have access to a

community of women that are like minded

:

00:53:19,425 --> 00:53:23,215

that you can, you know, vibe off of each

other, share best practices and, and,

:

00:53:23,215 --> 00:53:25,425

and, and share experiences or, or, or.

:

00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,680

Reach out for solutions and you can

also use our, our library, especially

:

00:53:29,690 --> 00:53:33,670

curated for women executives that is

going to just continue to enlighten you

:

00:53:33,670 --> 00:53:37,210

and help you to be better at what you're

doing and, and soaring your career.

:

00:53:37,210 --> 00:53:37,660

So

:

00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:38,650

Tony Tidbit: that is awesome.

:

00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:40,490

So listen, we're definitely

going to promote that.

:

00:53:40,780 --> 00:53:44,420

We're going to put your website

and stuff up on, on our website.

:

00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:48,800

So definitely check out discover

Eden, you know, especially for those

:

00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:54,635

who really want to have some type

of, Uh, expert to help them deal with

:

00:53:54,635 --> 00:53:57,875

some of their issues, perfect some

of the things that they're looking

:

00:53:57,875 --> 00:53:59,395

to do to take it to the next level.

:

00:53:59,575 --> 00:54:00,925

So you definitely want

to reach out to some

:

00:54:00,935 --> 00:54:03,835

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: programs

are, are, are, uh, you know, based on

:

00:54:03,935 --> 00:54:08,865

research and case studies and it is,

uh, it's, they are, they're rigorous

:

00:54:08,865 --> 00:54:11,255

and they are created to be impactful.

:

00:54:11,630 --> 00:54:12,070

So,

:

00:54:12,780 --> 00:54:15,910

Tony Tidbit: and I can imagine, I can

imagine, especially having, you know,

:

00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:17,990

Sonya leading, leading the charge.

:

00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,880

So we want to thank you

for coming on today.

:

00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:25,560

A Black Executive Perspective, you know,

your insights and thoughts and experiences

:

00:54:25,820 --> 00:54:29,360

has really, really, you know, touched

me and I'm pretty sure it's touched

:

00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,870

the audience and, you know, we want

to have you come back sometime soon.

:

00:54:33,090 --> 00:54:34,380

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Thank

you so much for having me.

:

00:54:34,410 --> 00:54:35,430

Tony Tidbit: Thank you, Sonya.

:

00:54:35,530 --> 00:54:36,060

Thank you.

:

00:54:36,420 --> 00:54:38,160

So I think it's now time for.

:

00:54:39,030 --> 00:54:40,850

Tony's tidbit.

:

00:54:41,110 --> 00:54:41,710

All right.

:

00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:47,820

So the tidbit is as always is based

on the conversation that we had today.

:

00:54:48,210 --> 00:54:52,680

So the tidbit is in order for us

to cultivate black leadership,

:

00:54:53,380 --> 00:54:58,314

we must first realize that

racism is inherently embedded.

:

00:54:58,845 --> 00:55:04,485

In many of our organizations, and you

heard a lot about that today with Sonia,

:

00:55:04,805 --> 00:55:08,455

um, about some of the issues that she

dealt with as being a black leader,

:

00:55:08,455 --> 00:55:10,585

not just her, a lot of other people.

:

00:55:10,585 --> 00:55:12,335

So we want to thank her for coming on.

:

00:55:12,455 --> 00:55:18,570

So I think it's now time for

our need to know with Nsenga.

:

00:55:18,735 --> 00:55:20,175

Nsenga what do we

:

00:55:20,175 --> 00:55:20,845

Nsenga Burton: need to know?

:

00:55:21,035 --> 00:55:25,635

Hi, this is Nsenga Burton bringing

you your need to know moment today.

:

00:55:25,985 --> 00:55:30,405

And today we're going to be talking about

the wonderful DEI, diversity, equity, and

:

00:55:30,405 --> 00:55:36,375

inclusion, which is under attack by many,

many different factions of our society,

:

00:55:36,775 --> 00:55:42,525

um, DEI, which is really about inclusion

and belonging and making sure that people

:

00:55:42,525 --> 00:55:48,845

who are usually qualified and overly

qualified, um, have access to the same,

:

00:55:49,255 --> 00:55:55,385

um, Types of jobs, education, you know,

various institutions as those who have

:

00:55:55,385 --> 00:56:01,395

been part of the ruling class is what we

would say in academic setting, but those

:

00:56:01,395 --> 00:56:03,045

who have been historically empowered.

:

00:56:03,335 --> 00:56:07,555

So, you know, diversity, equity and

inclusion is really about historically

:

00:56:07,555 --> 00:56:11,265

disenfranchised populations and

how to bring them into the fold

:

00:56:11,275 --> 00:56:15,334

in a way that is equitable as we

try to create a more flexible.

:

00:56:15,335 --> 00:56:19,415

Fair and just, or some would

say egalitarian society.

:

00:56:19,755 --> 00:56:21,115

So it's been really interesting.

:

00:56:21,145 --> 00:56:27,345

Um, as of late, the DEI, um, has become

sort of a Republican dog whistle, um,

:

00:56:27,955 --> 00:56:34,165

and has been presented as something

other than the desire to create a more

:

00:56:34,195 --> 00:56:40,495

equitable and just society, but it has

become a term that is now, um, aligned

:

00:56:40,495 --> 00:56:49,835

with being less than, uh, with being,

um, Unqualified with being a part of a

:

00:56:49,845 --> 00:56:53,105

movement, and this is not true, right?

:

00:56:53,105 --> 00:56:57,225

These are just what people are

saying and doing in order to take

:

00:56:57,225 --> 00:57:01,455

away opportunities from historically

disenfranchised populations.

:

00:57:01,795 --> 00:57:05,545

Um, and these options that they otherwise

would not have, because we do know

:

00:57:05,555 --> 00:57:09,725

when these members of historically

disenfranchised populations met all the

:

00:57:09,725 --> 00:57:13,665

criteria, met all of the qualifications,

exceeded those qualifications.

:

00:57:13,675 --> 00:57:15,155

They still were not given the nod.

:

00:57:15,415 --> 00:57:16,965

They still were not admitted to schools.

:

00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:21,790

They still were not given jobs or awarded

jobs that they had applied for some

:

00:57:21,830 --> 00:57:23,740

weren't even allowed to have interviews.

:

00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:24,420

Right?

:

00:57:24,420 --> 00:57:28,990

And so all of these things, um, are

tied up in diversity, equity and

:

00:57:28,990 --> 00:57:33,810

inclusion and why, you know, diversity,

equity and inclusion is important.

:

00:57:34,070 --> 00:57:38,060

So, an example of what I'm talking

about, when we talk about a dog whistle,

:

00:57:38,410 --> 00:57:43,900

um, is when you change the meaning of

something, so that it becomes, um, you

:

00:57:43,900 --> 00:57:46,910

know, It becomes a negative, right?

:

00:57:46,910 --> 00:57:50,910

It becomes, uh, something other

than what his original intent is.

:

00:57:50,950 --> 00:57:56,880

So example, uh, you all have been

watching, uh, the unfolding of, or the

:

00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:01,890

aftermath of the collapse of the Francis

Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore last month.

:

00:58:02,050 --> 00:58:04,760

You know, it's in Maryland and, um.

:

00:58:05,155 --> 00:58:07,375

You know, it was purely an accident.

:

00:58:07,415 --> 00:58:10,525

It's still under investigation,

but for all intents and purposes,

:

00:58:10,565 --> 00:58:12,715

it was an accident that happened.

:

00:58:13,135 --> 00:58:18,005

Uh, in fact, the people who warned,

uh, the police, uh, who subsequently

:

00:58:18,005 --> 00:58:20,905

died in the accident, the only

people to have died in the accident,

:

00:58:21,275 --> 00:58:23,895

uh, were, uh, immigrants, right?

:

00:58:24,295 --> 00:58:27,275

So, um, and Latinx immigrants,

um, who were working.

:

00:58:27,555 --> 00:58:31,085

Um, I say all of those things to say,

this is an accident that happened.

:

00:58:32,460 --> 00:58:34,890

The Mayor of Baltimore is

Brandon Scott, a young man.

:

00:58:34,890 --> 00:58:41,260

He's 39 years old, native Baltimorean,

and the governor of Maryland

:

00:58:41,430 --> 00:58:45,850

Wes Moore, uh, again, native

Baltimorean, um, African American.

:

00:58:46,150 --> 00:58:49,440

Um, and the Port Commissioner

is a black woman named Corinthia

:

00:58:49,445 --> 00:58:51,450

Barber, again, native Baltimorean.

:

00:58:51,780 --> 00:58:55,250

And what happened, uh, or some

of the things that you might've

:

00:58:55,250 --> 00:58:59,870

seen is, um, people on Twitter

saying, oh, the DEI, mayor.

:

00:59:01,050 --> 00:59:03,860

Um, this is why this accident

happened because they have an

:

00:59:03,950 --> 00:59:06,170

unqualified DEI Mayor in place.

:

00:59:06,540 --> 00:59:09,390

This is why this accident happened

because they have an unqualified

:

00:59:09,970 --> 00:59:11,520

DEI port commissioner in place.

:

00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:15,600

This is why this accident happened

because we have the DEI governor

:

00:59:15,870 --> 00:59:18,230

unqualified DEI governor in place.

:

00:59:18,290 --> 00:59:18,580

Right?

:

00:59:18,580 --> 00:59:22,510

So it's this idea that anything that

is diverse, particularly black, right?

:

00:59:22,510 --> 00:59:26,700

It's rooted in anti black racism, but

anything that is diverse, anything that is

:

00:59:26,700 --> 00:59:29,380

black has to be less than an unqualified.

:

00:59:29,810 --> 00:59:34,260

Even when the facts state the opposite.

:

00:59:34,590 --> 00:59:38,470

And so you have like Phil Lyman,

who's a GOP Republican gubernatorial

:

00:59:38,470 --> 00:59:43,180

candidate out of Utah, who's saying,

you know, calling them the DEIs, right.

:

00:59:43,540 --> 00:59:45,800

Um, versus calling them by their names.

:

00:59:45,830 --> 00:59:51,700

And so what this does is first of

all, it makes people have, um, an

:

00:59:51,710 --> 00:59:53,790

incorrect understanding of what DEI is.

:

00:59:54,295 --> 00:59:54,695

Right?

:

00:59:54,695 --> 00:59:56,485

And maligns and mislabels.

:

00:59:56,955 --> 01:00:01,045

This is the 2nd part maligns and

mislabels people and what they're doing.

:

01:00:01,775 --> 01:00:06,435

3rd, it dehumanizes whole human beings

like Wes Moore and Brandon Scott and

:

01:00:06,435 --> 01:00:12,005

Corinthia Barber, uh, it dehumanizes

them so that you feel okay about calling

:

01:00:12,005 --> 01:00:14,065

them less than or under qualified.

:

01:00:15,535 --> 01:00:16,235

Because.

:

01:00:16,775 --> 01:00:18,625

You know, you value them less, right?

:

01:00:18,635 --> 01:00:22,595

All of those things happen when you

use these dog whistle tactics, right?

:

01:00:23,035 --> 01:00:26,545

You use these taxes to bring

out the conservatives, to bring

:

01:00:26,565 --> 01:00:29,955

out the people to criticize, um,

who have no real information.

:

01:00:30,355 --> 01:00:32,545

Um, and the same thing would

have happened had you had

:

01:00:32,695 --> 01:00:34,125

Republicans in office at that time.

:

01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:34,820

Right.

:

01:00:35,170 --> 01:00:40,040

This was an accident was that was

unavoidable, um, to a large extent.

:

01:00:40,300 --> 01:00:45,450

Um, and then the challenges that were

happening, um, have nothing to do with

:

01:00:45,450 --> 01:00:47,830

those individuals or their qualifications.

:

01:00:47,850 --> 01:00:52,090

So, why would you do that

other than to mislead people?

:

01:00:52,100 --> 01:00:55,560

So I'm gonna wrap this up,

but I just wanted to be clear.

:

01:00:55,940 --> 01:00:59,790

Um, that DEI which is

actually a positive thing.

:

01:00:59,830 --> 01:01:04,660

It's about diversity, equity, inclusion

and belonging, creating a sense of

:

01:01:04,660 --> 01:01:09,400

belonging so that people can be a part

of whatever institution, business,

:

01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:15,590

church, educational institution, whatever

institution, um, they can be a part of

:

01:01:15,590 --> 01:01:20,240

it if they are qualified, if they want

to, and then if they do gain admittance.

:

01:01:21,180 --> 01:01:24,720

That they are treated fairly and

equitably once they are there.

:

01:01:24,790 --> 01:01:27,030

That is what diversity equity

and inclusion is about.

:

01:01:27,030 --> 01:01:30,890

It's not about, you know,

giving handouts to people.

:

01:01:30,890 --> 01:01:35,260

It's not about putting people in places

who are unqualified, even though we've

:

01:01:35,260 --> 01:01:39,750

seen a lot of that happening, particularly

under this previous administration,

:

01:01:40,060 --> 01:01:44,390

national administration, which is

why the mail system is in a complete

:

01:01:44,410 --> 01:01:48,750

disarray and horribly run currently.

:

01:01:49,140 --> 01:01:51,080

But you know, we don't

talk about that person.

:

01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:53,670

We don't say, Oh, they put

another white man in there.

:

01:01:53,670 --> 01:01:57,030

So it's going to be terrible

because it's ridiculous.

:

01:01:57,070 --> 01:01:58,030

That sounds ridiculous.

:

01:01:58,030 --> 01:01:58,330

Right?

:

01:01:58,740 --> 01:01:59,100

Yeah.

:

01:01:59,290 --> 01:01:59,690

Okay.

:

01:01:59,710 --> 01:02:01,220

And I know it's not equally yoked.

:

01:02:01,270 --> 01:02:06,430

What I am saying is, and it's not an equal

argument because of the power dynamics.

:

01:02:06,820 --> 01:02:09,730

But what I'm saying to you

is DEI is a good thing.

:

01:02:10,630 --> 01:02:13,980

DEI is about giving people who

are qualified and who have paid

:

01:02:13,980 --> 01:02:17,440

their dues and who have done

what they needed to do a shot.

:

01:02:18,115 --> 01:02:21,815

In a place, often a workplace, often

educational institution that they

:

01:02:21,815 --> 01:02:26,915

normally would not get the nod for

just because they're actually black,

:

01:02:27,355 --> 01:02:30,975

or they're actually LatinX, or

they're Asian, or they're whatever.

:

01:02:31,045 --> 01:02:31,315

Right?

:

01:02:31,315 --> 01:02:33,205

They wouldn't get the nod necessarily.

:

01:02:33,945 --> 01:02:35,255

So that's what it is about.

:

01:02:35,265 --> 01:02:35,855

It's about.

:

01:02:36,235 --> 01:02:37,815

Inclusion, right?

:

01:02:37,815 --> 01:02:42,425

Not about unqualified people

getting jobs they don't deserve and

:

01:02:42,425 --> 01:02:43,985

running the country into the ground.

:

01:02:44,495 --> 01:02:47,235

And that is your need to

know note from Nsenga.

:

01:02:47,695 --> 01:02:48,265

Tony Tidbit: Wow.

:

01:02:48,275 --> 01:02:49,275

Thanks Nsenga.

:

01:02:49,295 --> 01:02:50,765

That's some great information.

:

01:02:50,775 --> 01:02:51,775

Really appreciate it.

:

01:02:51,775 --> 01:02:53,965

Can't wait to hear what

you have next week.

:

01:02:54,535 --> 01:02:59,945

So, I, and for next week, we want you to

join another episode of a Black Executive

:

01:02:59,945 --> 01:03:04,235

Perspective Podcast where we're gonna

basically next week is going to be, oh,

:

01:03:04,235 --> 01:03:10,005

hold on, I see, yeah, uh, next week is

going to be The Voices of the African

:

01:03:10,355 --> 01:03:14,775

Diaspora, Stories Across Continents,

so you definitely don't want to miss

:

01:03:14,815 --> 01:03:19,170

this, but one of the things that we want

you to do Which is very important, is

:

01:03:19,170 --> 01:03:24,350

incorporate our motto, LESS, L E S S.

:

01:03:24,380 --> 01:03:30,310

Because we're looking to, we're looking

to decrease racism, any, any isms.

:

01:03:30,340 --> 01:03:32,540

So first, L means learn.

:

01:03:32,670 --> 01:03:37,940

You want to educate about other

cultures, history, other people.

:

01:03:37,950 --> 01:03:40,750

Then once you learn, E stands for empathy.

:

01:03:40,930 --> 01:03:43,850

That should give you more,

you should be more empathetic

:

01:03:44,100 --> 01:03:45,480

to your fellow human beings.

:

01:03:45,930 --> 01:03:47,880

And then S stands for share.

:

01:03:48,190 --> 01:03:52,320

Share what you learn to others

so more people can be educated.

:

01:03:52,540 --> 01:03:54,630

And then the final S stands for stop.

:

01:03:54,975 --> 01:03:59,775

We want to stop racism, discrimination,

wherever it runs up in our face.

:

01:03:59,785 --> 01:04:03,475

So when grandma at the Thanksgiving

table said something inappropriate, you

:

01:04:03,475 --> 01:04:05,775

say, grandma, you can't say that, right?

:

01:04:05,805 --> 01:04:10,495

So if everybody's incorporating less,

we'll have a fair kind of world.

:

01:04:10,645 --> 01:04:12,975

And these are the things

that you can put in action.

:

01:04:13,285 --> 01:04:13,965

And control.

:

01:04:14,055 --> 01:04:15,485

So let's everybody do that.

:

01:04:15,615 --> 01:04:18,725

So continue to follow a black

executive perspective podcast,

:

01:04:18,955 --> 01:04:20,605

wherever you get your podcast.

:

01:04:20,775 --> 01:04:26,085

And you can follow us on all our

socials on Facebook, LinkedIn, X, uh,

:

01:04:26,085 --> 01:04:30,025

uh, Tik TOK and Instagram at ablackexe.

:

01:04:30,045 --> 01:04:33,965

So I hope you enjoy

our conversation today.

:

01:04:34,615 --> 01:04:39,480

The chat, The Illusion of Power-Challenges

Faced by Black Women Executives I want

:

01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:41,620

to thank our guests, Sonya McNaughton.

:

01:04:42,010 --> 01:04:45,050

I want to thank the people

behind the glass, AA.

:

01:04:45,300 --> 01:04:48,290

And we got Noel all helping

it out, making things work.

:

01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:50,120

And so we talked about it.

:

01:04:50,210 --> 01:04:50,960

We love you.

:

01:04:51,550 --> 01:04:53,290

And we're out.

:

01:04:53,340 --> 01:04:54,940

Narrator: A Black executive Perspective

:

01:04:54,940 --> 01:04:56,100

A Black Executive Perspective.

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube