What is anarchist pedagogy? What does it have to do with so-called “alternative” schools, where mainstream educational systems often send students they have expelled, suspended, or otherwise excluded? How can working at the intersection of anarchist pedagogical philosophy and marginalized educational spaces open up new layers for how we rearrange power and accountability in learning spaces? 

This episode—which features teacher, educational reform leader, and principal Rodney Powell—dives into all of these questions and more.

The term “anarchist pedagogies” is not the first thing that comes to mind when we hear that someone is a high school principal. And yet this is exactly the combination at the center of this episode. Rodney Powell exposes preconceptions not only about this administrative role, but also about what “anarchy” can mean in theory and practice. Powell is the founder of EdArchy.org, described as “a youth development program committed to providing young people with the resources to imagine and create their own community-focused, authentic learning experiences.” He has his feet in two worlds: the traditional school where he pushes, when possible, for more democratic relations with his teaching staff through resistance and revolution (not reform), and the EdArchy program. Given the strictures of traditional educational systems, Powell has imagined this other space to subvert the dominant educational paradigms, where students can practice the student-centered and consented, co-designed, mutually-empowering, dream-incubating, and community-connected learning possibilities of education.

Over his twenty-four years in education, Rodney Powell has led school systems in Baltimore, Hartford, and in his current role as a principal in Danbury Public Schools in Connecticut. A 2023-24 member of the Nelle Mae Foundation Speakers Bureau on racial equity in public education, he is also pursuing his doctorate at Northeastern University. There, as in all his other work, his research focuses on partnering with youth toward greater agency, consent, and justice in learning.

Feed the People, Not the System! On Educational Anarchy

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Powell is the founder of edarchy. org, described as, quote, a youth development program committed to providing young people with the resources to imagine and create their own community focused, authentic learning experiences, end quote. He has his feet in two worlds. The traditional school where he pushes, when possible, for more democratic relations with his teaching staff through resistance and revolution, not reform, and the Edarchy program.

Given the strictures of traditional educational systems, Powell has imagined this other space to subvert the dominant educational paradigms. Edarchy, where students can practice the student centered and consented, co designed, mutually empowering, dream incubating, and community connected learning possibilities of education.

Lucia: Rodney, thank you for coming on Nothing Never Happens. We're so happy, um, to have you here and we'll just get started. I would love for you to tell us and our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you got into the work you're doing now as an educator and also as a principal. We rarely have principals on this podcast.

Um, After that, I'm originally from Connecticut. I moved back for almost a year. And worked in a school for students with serious emotional issues. And All of a sudden, um, some folks I had spent a summer with said, um, we'll pay 150 bucks to drive some kids from Vermont, New Hampshire area down to Baltimore, um, to do kind of an exchange program.

Um, I moved down there within a week. And, uh, started my master's program, started teaching in the city, um, Patterson High School, and, you know, the rest is history, but here's the thing, I only, I only taught for four years, um, then got with a group of colleagues who were like, we can do this better, responded to a request for proposals for a new schools initiative schools, and which were the precursor to, uh, charter schools in Maryland, and, uh, we were one of the five I think that got accepted.

And, you know, we started a school called Connections Community Leadership Academy. I was in middle school and, um, eventually wrote a proposal for a high school and added for the arts because, you know, we hired a bunch of artists and activist friends and the kids really liked the artist part. So after deliberating.

building this project called Feed the People. Um, and that was story curation. I basically collected people's stories every day. Um, so, you know, the extraordinary stories of ordinary people, I said. Um, and I used those stories for all different, all different ways to connect through community. Um, and then I decided, uh, you know, I'm not making any money.

One, one is already completed. My son's just started now. Today, actually, right now. Um, and, you know, we're off to a good start.

Tina: Yeah, what an interesting journey. I'm, um, wanting to know if you can tell us what anarchy is and, uh, especially the archie part and the theoretical basis of that, because, you know, there is, of course, um, um, anarchy's pedagogy and other things. And there's a whole history of the kind of alternative.

Programs.

Everybody thinks chaos and disorder. Right. And in fact, if you look up anarchy, I mean, if you look up anarchy, there's the first definition does include disorder, I believe. But there's, there was another one I found that says the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation without political institutions or hierarchical government, uh, hierarchical, uh, government.

And I think, um, you know, that requires a little. Anarchy. So specifically what anarchy is about is it's an idea incubator. Um, and that's what we focused on in July, uh, where it's learner driven, uh, completely learner driven, um, no set curriculum. They bring the curriculum. Um, you know, I love Paulo Freire and the idea of, um, you know, not banking.

And, you know, learning. I say that schools don't own learning. Um, and so I really am committed to following the lead of young people. Of course, we serve a role as adults to keep them safe, um, to use our wisdom, but beyond the idea incubator and then building projects that we hopefully can get funded for them.

So workshops, PDs, things like that. Because isn't it a little weird how much schools and school systems and nonprofit organizations that deal with education and youth development. It's how much they spend on consultants. And not once have I ever sat in one where kids are involved. Are part of the team, right?

So, so that's, that's anarchy. Um, you know, one thing I point out when people are a little shaky on the, how can they lead. First of all, we say. A lot of times, I know you hear this because everybody's running away from education, uh, and they blame it on this, that young people are out of control, right? And my comeback to that is it's really hard to learn how to drive from the passenger seat, right?

And, you know, um, because that somehow motivates you, right? And maybe it motivates some people, but in the long term, I think we see by high school, They lose some of that. Right. Um, and so I point out the fact that from birth to kindergarten, they say that you learn the most right, um, in your life like this very significant about of learning that happens, but you never get a report card.

Um, and no one grades us, um, but we do it anyways. And so all I'm just, those are just examples of the kind of thinking, um, that we're promoting in Anarchy.

Lucia: That's that's great. Um, I'm wondering just to go deeper into that. Could you give us an example of the kind of project based learning? Um, I don't know if even that that's the right term for it, but an example of a project that one of your, um, participants co learners has brought and walk us through sort of how it grew, where it went, um, to help us and our listeners get kind of a picture of what this looks like in practice.

Yeah,

So the way we got there was. We'll use a consultancy protocol. Um, that's a little tweaked, um, for us, but they present their idea, um, and what they know about it and what they hope to do about it. And maybe any questions that they have or dilemmas that they think about. Um, and around the table are young other young people, uh, adults that are.

Helping at this point volunteers. And then I'm always texting people. Hey, come down. We're working on this thing. Um, especially if they're doing something that's similar, uh, you know, if they're, if they're involved in something that's similar to the idea that the young person has, and we had good success this summer, people just popping by sitting down at the table.

They have to build a budget. What are you going to do with the 500 if you get it? Um, you know, they have to figure out content and, and how, how would you promote this? Um, you know, who do you need to be in contact in order to do that? Um, and we just kind of build it from there. They go through lots of iterations of their, of their work that it's kind of a drafting process, but it's not as there's no exchange between teacher and student.

Um, and he really, you know, he's an anarchist. So he, he really, he, he believes in just learning on your own and learning from your. with your friends and, and, uh, not necessarily having formal instruction that's being modified as, as he gets better. But, um, so he just wanted to provide a space for artistic freedom, as he says, uh, for young people to come together, whether they know an instrument or they don't and learn from each other and, you know, make music, um, with potentially the goal of, um, you know, doing shows and performances, but also the major goal is just to enjoy without evaluation, you know, um, just to enjoy.

She wrote a script for a short film, uh, social justice focused on the difference between when a, um, young person of color goes missing And when a white, uh, youth goes missing and the way that's handled. Um, so she created a whole scenario, wrote a script. She's waiting till the spring when the weather breaks to actually film it.

But we have people identified in the community, um, to help her do that. And obviously she's buying equipment, um, studio time and things like that, where 500. So that's a good sample of.

Um, I'm, I'm curious how, you know, their, their projects. Um, have any kind of a life after a certain period.

And, um, you know, reached out to shelters and talk to people there. Um, the library, which is a big, a big hub. And I, you know, I heard, heard that on that episode as well, but they, uh, you know, we, we drive around and they hop out and go meet with people or we do zone calls, um, and attend, uh, meetings of local organizations who are working in this area.

And, um, the young person, Maisie, you know, Um, said, yeah, I do want to do this. Uh, again, I want to continue to, to help this community and maybe work in other communities. And she also said, you know, this is something that I want to do, you know, in my life is to help people and figure out, you know, how to do that and where to plug in.

And the great thing about that is, you know, I'm around students all the time and, you know, you ask them what they want to do and they'll say whatever they heard before or their parents do. Um, microbiologists is like this. It's like this knee jerk answer that they all give, um, but they don't always know what that means or know anybody who does that or how you access that, right?

Lucia: So one of the things I'm wondering about is like, if you can, and these are like sort of, what does this look like in practice? And I know that we're going to zoom out and do some of the more theoretical questions in a second, but, um, when we imagine these like, Yeah, these, these students bringing projects and working on them and finding the different pieces through this kind of inductive method that's supported by the whole community.

Are they learning about division, Accounting all of that through that processor. Is it a little bit of both? And so can you like paint that picture for us right

Rodney: now? We're out of the system program, right?

Lucia: Okay.

Rodney: And so we're not offering any credential. Um, the hope is that at some point, uh, will form form an ecosystem.

And that's something I definitely want to talk about. Um, a community ecosystem, which I think is a new way of looking at education. Um, right now we're not connected. Um, we're really at the beginning stages. Uh, we're at the stage where we need to find funding to, to sustain, um, really running on people power right now, which is great.

Um, and it's non systematized. Um, you know, we, we, you know, I use the phrase feed the people because of my project, but that it's I really mean feed the people, not the system. Um, we create systems to, to manage people, but we starve the people as we feed the system. Um, and so I think the, the answer is to build something that doesn't exist now.

Um, and so the idea is to build ecosystems to circle back to that and ecosystems. I work, I work in partnership with, um, Education reimagined who really is is working hard on this concept where in a community. Um, you know, anarchy, for example, might have a, uh, home base where students feel like, you know, this is my place.

Again, that's the antithesis of what's happening already. And so it's difficult. It's not, you know, I get a lot of people saying, well, you know, you should, you should bring this to this district for that district. I think eventually down the line, there might be ways to do that, but I'm very careful, you know, where I sell my goods, you know what I mean?

It's a, it's, it's, you have to be very careful, um, how you align and that's not to demonize anything. It's just protecting, uh, the model that you're, that you're promoting.

Rodney: Um, I don't know that I necessarily, uh, specify. I mean, you know, I definitely draw on knowledge from, uh, Paulo Freire, uh, decolonization, decentralization of education. Um, I really believe in community, community development comes from self, self development, uh, individual development. Um, always constructive is thought.

Um, but it doesn't, it doesn't rest in one category. Um, certainly there's social justice theory mixed in there and Marxism and all types of things. But, um, It's, it's a little more fluid and responsive to the people that you're serving. Um, the other thing, you know, when you talk about, you know, I know we might talk about this further while it's in my head.

Um, and I think that's a trap. Um, and I also think it's, it, it doesn't really speak to what I believe. I think ultimately, ideally there's just a plethora of. Options that are publicly funded again. Education reimagined is really working on. Uh, you should be able to say this is the way my community wants to educate our folks and it should you should have access to funding just like everyone else.

Lucia: Oh, go ahead. I was going to ask you, this might be a good moment to sort of ask you more about sort of what kinds of resistance you've encountered to your, um, to kind of this vision and the practices you've been bringing in. And, um, how have you, how have you engaged those?

Rodney: So, so far, um, there hasn't been a lot of resistance, but I haven't, I haven't really been in an arenas where there would be a debate.

Some resistance. Um, in terms of there's fears that people have, right? We all know the traditional way. Um, and, you know, how will you know, how will you know that kids are learning? How will they get into college? How, how is this going to be, um, you know, verified by some governing body that says, um, that you're real and you're, and you're worthy.

That is the best way to win the argument. You know that that's that's a much better way to win the argument than, um, allowing the opposition to sap your energy. Um, and so I've gone from pointing out all of the ways that the education system has failed students and we can certainly talk about that ad nauseum, right?

I mean, but I just find a better use of time to build what we're building, um, and to give it a chance to be in the debate in the first place.

Lucia: I'm going to ask a follow up if that's okay with Tina, like I think, so I am curious about hearing some of your reflections on working in this kind of work in schools that get tagged as like alternative schools.

Or they had stuff going on at home, or just needed a different kind of teaching and learning. But the way that, the way that schools that were called alternative schools, We're sort of imagined in the community was as a place where people went because they were being punished. It's like the last stop before jail.

Could you talk about that a little bit and how you, how you see yourself in this landscape where. not learning according to the cookie cutter models ends up getting you disciplined rather than, um, maybe supported in different ways.

Rodney: I absolutely love that question. I can talk for days about it. My, you know, my thing is alternative education.

Um, even when I, you know, had a charter school, we did everything different than everyone else. Um, and it worked. Um, and I feel like The measure of any community or district is how well you deal with those students. Those are the ones everyone complains about. Those are the ones, uh, that often get in trouble in society.

It's not just solely there, but because we're talking about it. Um, I think what better way, I mean, there are, they've already proven, I don't understand why we don't get this right, like they've already proven that traditional education doesn't work. That's why you sent them to alternative school. The weird thing is in most alternative school settings, they become hyper traditional, right?

Or,

you know, I've had experiences like with the nonprofit and Hartford where I built the school, uh, where there was more autonomy, and we built up to a point where students didn't even have schedules. These are the big scary kids that. You know, need to be disciplined. They didn't even have schedules. What they had was, uh, questions they were trying to answer, projects they were trying to build, appointments that they had with teachers.

Um, and so. I think that's like a perfect place to start, right? And also, and placement in an alternative school, there's lots of racism in it. Um, there's lots of xenophobia in it. Uh, and it absolutely has nothing to do with intelligence or ability. Uh, even though it's sold like that, right? Um, And as soon as you, you stop that, that stigma, you can do things like anarchy.

And I was like, what? I was like, what? We have to study that right now, right? And they developed a whole project and, uh, you know, talked about depression and happiness and the fact that, you know, Instagram and social media shows you everybody's highlight reel, uh, uh, which leaves young people, you know, feel like if they don't achieve That edited version of life that they're no good.

What are we doing today? What do you want? And, and letting them just hang out until an idea comes is the other thing. There's all these scary things I like to do. You know, I found that educators are, um, have control fetishes, right? Like they, they have to be in control at all those all times. Like they, uh, and a lot of concrete thinkers, which I never thought before, but, um, you know, they want to just follow the steps, but I'm completely okay.

With a kid coming, uh, coming into recovery from traditional school and doing a lot of nothing, um, I'm okay with having food around that they can access without asking me. I'm okay with having a chess boards around that you can just walk out of class because you're, you've had enough and go play chess with your friend.

I think, I kind of celebrate when I meet alternative school kids like, awesome, you see, because they see,

Lucia: I love the idea of, yeah, these so called alternative schools as spaces for recovery or detox from the traditional school environment and posing the question of code, like, what can a teacher do to.

Rodney: Yeah, one of the things I want to, I want to study, you know, as, as we go through is, um, school has trauma. Uh, you know, school is a huge source of trauma for some kids.

Uh, and. But some kids don't have the patience or the, or the space in their life to do that. And so here comes all the injury right here comes all the trauma like now you're the feelings of you're not good or, or you have, you have one side, I need to discipline you to death. And on the other side I need to help you to death, right, I need to label you all these things and make you feel like you're the problem I want to solve.

Um, and so they believe that they're a problem, right? We want to descend on urban schools full of black and brown children and apply all these unnatural. Uh, uh, techniques and strategies and then report use them to report and make ourselves feel good and get more funding. That's injury. That's trauma. We want to separate them from their community and their and their families because that's got to be the problem.

I think, in fact, we're reaching a tipping point. We've we've surpassed the tipping point after the pandemic after this mass exodus from education. They're all alternative kids. You know, we just haven't figured it out yet. We're still trying to apply this non alternative, uh, uh, strategy.

Educational practice. And I mean, what? What do you you're in two worlds, right? You've got a foot in the traditional and a foot in the alternative. So you're negotiating that, too. So what kind of wisdom could you give us about the state of teaching and how to support teachers in that role?

Rodney: I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna go with the spirit of being radical, um, because it's the only real answer that I have.

If you, if you can't figure out that this is the time to break all the rules, um, more than any other time in history, you should probably follow everyone else out the door. If you don't love what you're doing, You should, you should go right. You should not create Instagram pages where you complain about kids and their families.

There's not enough people to fill these rooms. I'm just going to be blatant about it at this point. They're not going to fire you. You know, unless you do something really horrible, and I don't think that's what most people are doing. Um, but take that chance. Take them out of the building. Throw the curriculum to the side and ask them what they want to learn about.

Just do it. Right. Right. Just, and because at this point you're complicit, uh, and you're voluntarily. adding on to something that we all claim to be sick of. Uh, and I don't think, I think we're always afraid to say that, right? We changed, even me, like I'll be, I'm, I'm gonna, I'll pretty much say anything whenever, but I will modify it in certain spaces for that survival mode.

Not going to do it. Sorry, uh, whatever consequences, you know, you want to apply, apply them. But what you can't deny is that these kids are learning. They're all of a sudden engaged. They want to be, um, they want to be at school. Um, they want to be involved in the community. You have to do things where they can't deny it anymore.

Um, don't worry about your evaluation so much. Uh, that was the time. What, what better time would there be?

Lucia: This is the pep talk we all need. But not just like a pep talk, uh, like, Come on. Um, let's

The whole community of schools that we were talking to that believe in autonomy and agency and all these things, community development, we're, you know, going crazy about these standardized tests. We can't, we have to, we can't keep doing this. They're racist and they're all this stuff. And so one day we were doing professional development and I went up the hall to get something from my office and they happened to be delivering the boxes of tests, you know, that needed to be locked up.

You should do it too. Oh man, that was the first time I caught resistance in my little community. They were like, Oh, Paul, you're going too far. You know, that's irresponsible. You're going to set these kids up for failure. And I was like, what? All we talk about is how horrible these things are. Um, so I have a little bit of a suicide bomber type of mentality, but you know, somebody has got to do it.

Lucia: I think like having someone who's out there being like, You could just send them back. Just send them back? So, like, it reveals, it reveals the conservatism of passing out the test when you know how racist it is.

Rodney: And for some people, it's straight conservatism. And some people, it's, learned conservatism because of the trauma that they've been through in

Lucia: school,

Rodney: right?

But what do I do instead? I talk to them constantly about, I can tell you what's going on in every classroom. Um, I, I have non evaluative conversations only where we build things, bring stuff to my offices, throw stuff all over the place. Um, that's if you say that out loud. In front of other people. It's like you're irresponsible.

You like you don't deserve to be here. Um,

Lucia: you don't care about student perspectives.

Tina: well, can we get you to come consult in higher education.

Rodney: I'm having a hard time finishing my doctorate because All these intrusive thoughts about, uh, the elitism and sorting of, uh, knowledge, you know, being at this level, uh, you know, talking all this stuff that I, all this junk that I talk, and then participating in it, it just, it messes with me.

Tina: Yeah, yeah.

Rodney: But I know that it's also important because if I'm going to talk all that junk and the people are going to come for me, I'm going to say, don't worry, I have every, every degree in the land. I've got a

Lucia: strategy. That's like, it's not the only strategy but it's one strategy.

Rodney: It's one to have in your pockets, for sure.

Lucia: Yeah.

Tina: Has there been,

Rodney: so yes,

Rodney: My current, my current, uh, job has challenged me quite a bit for a lot of reasons. Um, I imagine none of them will watch this, so, um, this is the first time I've, I've witnessed this, like, firsthand really more blatant and systematic racism, bias, xenophobia.

This is a huge epiphany for me over the last year and a half, um, that I've really ins, I've really insulated myself and all of these. These days that I talk about, I've never actually been in the room with them for the most part. Right. Um, and so with that comes folks that are, um,

folks, let's see, with that comes, uh, folks that are, are used to that environment. including young people, um, who maybe aren't ready to hear what I have to say. They don't see it as the relief that I would hope they would see it as. Um, that's the truth. Um, and so that's hard. I've, I've been in a lot of situations where people enroll or volunteer.

Lucia: those situations?

Rodney: directly, uh, as much as possible. I mean, it's the first time in my life that, uh, I got stuck for a while. I don't know, like, I didn't know what to do. Um, I didn't have, and I felt that pressure, uh, that I don't usually feel. Um, and that just shows how powerful it is. Um, you know, I talked to colleagues from before.

Um, I've, I've delivered a lot of impassioned PDs, which I love doing PDs, um, impassioned PDs that fall flat because, and one thing I've realized is the staff is absolutely traumatized by the district. They're, they're so afraid of the district. They're so afraid. Um, and so I just sound crazy to them, you know, instead of celebrated, I'm sound, I sound like a threat.

We're

Tina: getting close to time. This is, we could go on and on. Anything we haven't talked about that you would like to. make sure you tell us about.

Rodney: Um, just that Edarchy is growing. We're at the need to find funding phase. Um, you know, edarchy. org is the place to keep tabs on us. Um, we're working on a newsletter and we're working on, uh, you know, we have an Instagram page, the underscore Edarchy underscore movement, um, or you can keep tabs.

Tina: Thanks. I

Lucia: guess we're at our last question, which is Rodney, Tina, what are you listening to watching, reading, cooking, enjoying that you would like to share or recommend to our listeners?

So I figured I better get on it. So I've been watching a lot of tutorials. I just finished, uh, In Search of Deeper Learning, um, book by, let's see, I wrote, wait, I have a copy here. Uh, Jahal Mehta and Sarah Fine, In Search of Deeper Learning, The Quest to Remake the American High School. So they study all different, um, high schools, uh, from, you know, your, your typical, um, large school.

Um, and then one of the things that watches me is billions. Um, and it's ab it would seem like someth Um, but it's about billio culture and this relation billionaire investors and it's a drama, but it's, a attention. I have a hard

kind of fascinated by it. Um, it's sort of the opposite, you know, it's the evil empire and I feel like it teaches me a lot. So that's what I'm doing.

Rodney: Right. With general funds, don't be specific about what I could do with it.

Lucia: Yeah, that's right.

We know how you work. Rodney has watched this show. Tina?

Tina: Well, I've had a lot of grant proposals due and other things, so I've been watching a lot of TV also to kind of Uh, step down from the stress and Abbott Elementary premiere was last night. So they're back and there's one image that is stuck in my head from the premier, which is this one little boy second grader who, when the main character played by Quinta Brunson walks by the door, he just, Waves that are in smiles silently.

He's a New Yorker through and through and Alaska paid for his education. So he has to go to Alaska. He thinks he's going to Anchorage, but they put him in the middle of nowhere. Um, and so there's a lot of, um, intersections with perky characters, indigenous culture. Um, a lot of people have barred from that show.

So I need that to. I have hope in the world. So Lucia, you're next. What are you? It's, it's basketball season, right? Or not? I don't know.

Lucia: It's college basketball season. It's WNBA transaction season. And yesterday, the best thing happened, which is that I learned that Candace Parker is returning to play another year for the Las Vegas Aces.

Rodney, I know you're in Connecticut, so we're probably

Rodney: just from our professional team.

And it's really fun, partly because the Christian right is. ahead of most of us in producing media about themselves. And so the numbers of like conservative Christian cartoons and, you know, vintage, like old time gospel hour televangelism, my, the algorithm that pushes me advertisements on YouTube is very confused right now.

Um, that's what I've been watching.

Rodney: Just real quick, speaking of the students, I'm kind of committed to always doing things with their voices.

So let's talk again in maybe six months and I'll have them, them talk more than me.

Tina: We would love that. Oh, that's perfect. Yes. Thank you. Let's do it. All right. Thank you, Rodney.

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