How easy is it for you to recognize and express what it is that you’re feeling and which of your needs aren’t being met? Do you find communicating what you’re experiencing to others challenging!? If so, I encourage you to check out this episode! I’m joined by Angela Walkley, a NonViolent Communication assessor and trainer and the two of us dive into a conversation around the art of recognizing feelings and needs, not making assumptions and catching when we’re blaming, judging and in perceived stories and the importance of empathy. Angela shares a recent situation she was navigating to support us in making more sense of the brilliant ways NonViolent Communication can help in times of conflict and where people may have very different experiences at play. As someone who’s only recently been introduced to the NonViolent Communication world, I’m excited to share this conversation with you because this work has helped me take more responsibility for my own experiences and see the bigger picture more clearly!

Mentioned Resources:

For resources and more on Nonviolent Communication, visit https://www.cnvc.org/

For more about Angela and her offerings, visit www.angelawalkley.com

About the Guest:

Angela dwells in the beauty of needs that arise in herself and between herself and others. She is an Assessor and Trainer with the international Center for NonViolent Communication. She worked for over a decade leading heart-based decision-making related to land and social justice with indigenous, government, industry and environmental organizations. She meets groups in the space that divides them - to help them hear the depth of what matters to them, to express themselves with care and to find a path forward together. In the more recent decade, she has been offering transformational programs for those that are looking to cultivate a personal and global consciousness of openness, inclusion and connection. Angela lives, works, plays and prays on the unceded lands of the Sahtloot, Sasitla, Leeksun and Puntledge people in western Canada.

To study with Angela, please check out her offerings at: www.angelawalkley.com

Connect with the Host:

Learn more about Nicole - www.nicolelohse.com/about 

Download The Experiential Guide - www.nicolelohse.com/experiential-guide 

Join me on the podcast - www.nicolelohse.com/experiential-podcast 

Instagram - www.instagram.com/nlohse

TikTok - www.tiktok.com/@nicole.lohse

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So I just finished a six month, month container with Angela, I guess, called Soul speech. And Angela is a genius around many things. But nonviolent communication is the modality you bring forth and embody, in many ways. And it was through this six month container that I got to real deeper. I feel like I just dipped a toe actually into NVC, like six months and six months, I dip the toe into nonviolent communication for those that don't know what NVC stands for. And I am blown away at how much untangling what my feelings and my needs are, has been really helpful to help me understand more about myself and my entangled messes I can find myself in and to be able to take the structure of NVC to untangle more of what's at play and to see the layers and to recognize the feelings and the needs. And then to be able to learn how to make requests from the recognition and clarity I gain from that has been extremely helpful. Something that I find interesting, so nonviolent communication. For me, communication has always been hard. And having grown up in a way where everything was fine. And we didn't have to communicate about much and we didn't have much conflict. Yeah, I remember having one fistfight with my brother. That's it. Yeah. So there's this like, desire to communicate more, but more also a desire for me to understand myself more. And, yes, somatically I know myself really well, like understanding more of feelings. And what is it that I'm actually feeling? And what is it I'm actually needing feels like a newer thing that I'm moving into. And real snoring says, you might be able to hear him snoring in the background. Right by the microphone. But yeah, there's this real clarity, I'm gaining through what I've learned from you that I'm extremely grateful for, that has really allowed me to see more of the puzzle pieces that are at play around how I'm showing up in the world, and then how I communicate it. And what I find so funny. Being someone who didn't experience much conflict, yes, is as soon as I signed up for this, I had so many situations that were conflicting, and where I really had to practice this art and some of the most challenging experiences like I had a friendship that ended because of some conflict. Navigating some pieces with clients. Like, it's amazing how when when you open the door to it, companies are away. Yes. So be warned anyone listening to the podcast, you might after this start navigating more of your feelings and your needs, and maybe also navigating conflict. So yeah, without further ado, I'd like to actually hand the mic over to just to share a little bit about Yeah, your MVC journey, anything you want to share around how it's helped you? And how it continues to help you. And Angela Walkley? Yeah. Welcome.

Thank you, Nicole. I think what's just sticking with me right now is your experience of opening up to your feelings and needs and finding that you're lending in more conflict than you used to. And that could be just circumstance. But I think it can also be that when we get more connected to what our needs are, we start asking for things that we haven't asked for before. And instead of just going with the flow, or going the easiest route, which tends to be what other people are putting in our path, we start to create our own pathways, and we have to move through more fish. More friction. Yeah, totally.

That totally.

So, so yes, I do appreciate the complexity that comes when we start to step in, to living really in alignment with responding to our feelings and aligning ourselves with what our needs are. And then the other step of that is how do I align that in a way that other people can hear and other people can receive? So that's, that's the the nuance of it. It's like okay, here's me, and here's what I'm eating in the world. And how can I tap into who you are, what you're needing in the world, and what the sweet spot is in between.

Love holding more grace for each of us? Yeah, in experience. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

So my own journey started because I was working as a mediator and a facilitator, you usually related to land use planning, decision making and Canada's north. And I thought that this would be a really great tool for me to sort everybody else out.

That's not a pattern, is it? There's a survival pattern.

Yeah, there's a survival. Yeah, that's, that's definitely a hint as to how I ended up in that work. I think that's a natural role that I played from a young age. But it also was representative of like, the neutrality that I always held within me just my ability to see this kind of multi partiality of the world, that that there was something going on for everybody. And so there wasn't a right or a wrong to figure out there was multiple needs to be figured out. So I think from a young age, I was really motivated that way. And, and then got into this role of trying to seek really great decisions for establishing parks, creating decisions around how land is used, managing our social services, programs, things like that. But what I really quickly found was that it started to work on me and in me. And the consciousness that I was trying to bring around multi partiality in the outward world started to show up in my inner world as well. And like, I started to notice the frequency with which I held myself wrong,

right, where it didn't reflect back.

And also in in my primary relationship, my close friendships, my relationship with my parents, and I was a I was a new mom. In fact, like, I took my first course in nonviolent communication when I was pregnant with my son, who's now 19. Wow. So So I did not have the chops at the beginning to really understand how shifting out of right wrong thinking would dramatically upturn how I thought of parenting, in terms of my top down, like, here's what I say, you need to do it kind of approach like, okay, timeout, if you're not going to, you know, finish what you started or do what you said you were gonna do, or do what I told you to do. Just the radical transformation of like any behavior that's showing up whether it's in a child or whether it's in an adult, is stimulated, that have a need. And so as soon as that paradigm flips, it shifts into a curiosity of like, so what need is going on? Yeah.

It instantly creates space around what's going on. Yeah. And brings on this curiosity of like, let's look at more perspectives or understand from more perspectives.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. And that doesn't mean that I tolerate or that I accept harmful behavior, or that I let go of my own needs mattering? Yeah, just because I can tune in to somebody else's needs doesn't mean that I let go of mine. Yeah. It's this simultaneous curiosity about the other person's needs, and then tuning back into like, oh, and what am I needing? Yeah, oh, I have a need for this. And how important is that need? And in what ways can I get it met? Yeah. So it's, it's it's getting very creative with with how we meet everybody's needs.

That's so cool. And what that makes me think of like, coming into the pillars of NBC. What you're naming here is recognizing someone's needs. And in that is, we're observing them right. Like, yeah, there's observations being taken in and something that I'm aware of that I can do personally, and I witnessed other people do, yeah, is we make stories up, or assumptions around what people need or what people think or what what the situation is. Yeah. Right. So this recognition of someone's needs, but noticing if we're making assumptions around needs, or are we genuinely getting curious and wondering about what their needs are based off of what we're observing, but not holding on, to what we're observing as the fact or the thing that I have to associate to when I'm trying to figure out their needs. Yeah.

And there's so much innocence in the ways that we make up stories, like we're meaning making creatures. Yeah. So we observe something. And then we analyze it, just, you know, the automatic process of analyzing that for meaning, and then coming up with a story and because we tend, because we're born into kind of a right or wrong, blame oriented culture. There's a natural inclination to notice negative feelings and put that back on to the other person and create a negative meaning making it around what happened, which

I want to just name because I look at things more from a survival kind of perspective, like that can be a brilliant way that someone's learned to survive in the world. It's like if I can read the room, and I know what that body language means, or if I know what you know, that look means, and I am then prepared on how to navigate it so that things don't blow up, right, there can be a real survival aspect to how we take in information and make stories of it. And of course, everything's based off what we've learned. But when it's rooted in survival, it has a very different quality to it. And then that assumption making and then turning it around and potentially blaming or turning it inward, and shaming really starts to take place. Yes. So I wanted to name that just kind of to notice flavors. And we'll get into that later, too. When something's rooted more off of survival. I mean, everything's rooted off of survival. We're always trying to survive. Yeah, but when it's rooted in a story that's stuck in survival, yeah, that's gonna really impact how we observe the world. Yeah.

And what I'm hearing in that is that there's a natural inclination to meet our needs for safety as like, the number one place to start. Yeah, exactly. And then from that is also like care, like care for myself and watching to see if others are caring for each other and caring for me. Yeah. And so that's a really natural strategy for us to have is to be vigilant, and to look for stories where there could be threat. And when we've had past history of being unsafe, that's going to be amplified. We're going to see it more often. And we're going to be more vigilant and more likely to project a negative story on the situation. Yeah, exactly. And the challenge is, is that we treat that story as if it's truth. Yeah. And then we often frame it from that blame paradigm. And then we demand what it is that we want out of it, or we have or we or we don't actually demand it, but we expect it. And when we don't receive it, yeah, then we're angry about it. Exactly. And none of that has been communicated. Yeah, exactly. So

I wonder if you were, you're okay to kind of let's follow this in a way, because to me, what we're already describing here is more when something's rooted in trauma, right? Versus when we're just genuinely in our explorations around what we're feeling, what we're needing, and how do we make requests from there. So I want to just speak a little to that first, and then we'll speak a little more to the rest of the like the, the foundation of NVC and how we can kind of differentiate when we're more in what's rooted in trauma versus when we're finding clarity. And it's, I mean, it's not always obvious. But what I'm hearing in what you're saying is like, yes, there's this need for safety, and care. And in that, for me, what also stands out is connection and a sense of belonging and mattering. Yeah. And when there's history around not mattering or not belonging, or when the care was never there. Or when safety is hot and cold, and you never really know, you're then in a state where, yes, you need it, but you don't even know what you need, because it was never necessarily there in the first place. Yeah. And, and this is where I find it leads to people being more in the story making and the demanding, because they can't meet themselves in that yet.

What I'm hearing and that is the inability to know what it would look like for that need to even be met. Yeah. And, and without knowing that there's a defensive mechanism that just shows up of like demanding, demanding strategies to create that safety but without, without actually having the full awareness of what's what's happening and what you're actually asking for, or wanting

totally. And for now, we'll just leave it at that as an invitation for people that are listening to notice, if you recognize that as we're continuing to talk about feelings and needs and and any requests that can come out of that. When is there a flavor of demanding it from someone else? Because actually, knowing how to meet yourself and it is unknown, because that's just information. It's almost like another way to get to know yourself and the ways that maybe there's some missing pieces here or I'm stuck in the unknown of these needs. And that's something to get curious about. Yeah, we can leave it out there for now. I think you and I could probably go on quite deeply into the deeper realms of that. And I'm sure it'll continue into the conversation, but I just wanted to name it as something for us, me included to continue to be aware of when the needs we're making are kind of foreign to us. Yes. Because they're probably rooted in trauma. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. What I, what I feel called to do is make this more relatable by grounding it in practical examples. Yes, I

love examples. Okay.

So I mentioned to you before the call that I had a conversation with my dad this morning. And notice that I had some needs were really alive, that it weren't totally clear for me at the beginning, but I think I'll use that as, as the example. And I, and I want to say at the outset, as I go into this story, that I'm really clear, that there's, there's there's nobody at fault in this story. And, and at the same time, when I first start into experiences, sometimes I can't fully see what my reality is versus the other person's reality. Like there's it's sort of like a bit of a detective game in terms of like, figuring out what is actually alive. So the in, see if I can make it in simple terms, I received an email this morning, this is my observable. So just as neutrally as possible, I received an email this morning. That was from my dad. And it was linked to a bank arrangement that I'm doing in the purchase of a house.

Great. So an observable, observable being what you are seen as being set as this is what's happening, but there's no attachment to a story to what you're observing. And there's no

added layers of evaluation, or any kind of sense of something being done wrong. It's just the fact that there was an email that was sent. And I had an immediate reaction because I had been the primary point of contact. And that this is, this is an arrangement. That's that where I'm the primary client. So I had, the first feeling I noticed was surprise. And the surprise showed up as like holding my breath, and kind of a bubbly adrenaline feeling immediately coming up into my body. Almost sort of like going into an immediate sweat.

nervousness in the surprise? Yes,

yes. So so it's, it's not just a neutral surprise, it's, it's a charge surprise of worried like, there's sort of a concern and worry around there being potentially a harmful impact. And I I knew instantly that there was something that I wanted to attend to quickly because of the time sequence of things that were taking place today. And, and so I got on the phone with my dad. And there's something that happens for me, you know, there's real value in processing before we get into contact with other people. So there is something that happens for me very quickly around like, oh, what it is, what is it I'm longing for here. And there was a very quick realization around wanting autonomy, wanting choice, wanting the word that came up for me was dignity. And I think that's just a word that comes up for me in the ways that I longed to be my adult self while in relationship with my father. So it's something about like, allowing the ways that I love that he supports me and, and also retaining connection with my agency as my adult self. So the those needs were alive for me. And at that point, I wasn't able to connect to what his needs work right in sending the email. And, and there was threads of stories for me around, here's my dad trying to take leadership of something that is my responsibility. So that's I think, as far as I kind of went and didn't dig under, in terms of my own curiosity of what was going on for him because

there was a time limit. Or

because there was a time limit and There are times when I choose to ride, the mobilization that happens for me with emotion because I, I have a tendency to self process and contain, like I process to such an extent that I've got it kind of figured out. And it doesn't always give people the transparency they need around how we are in relationship with each other. Yeah. So I do invite myself to not overly process. And maybe that's just something that's developed over the 20 years where I realized that I was losing intimacy with people because I was processing things to such a degree, that they wouldn't even be aware that there had been a charge that came up. And I actually enjoy being in a little bit of the heat of the relationship with people even as much as I, I want to reduce drama. Yeah.

Been through that it probably creates more connection and intimacy. Maybe that that's what I know. And I want to name as someone who has been doing this for so long, this is an easier practice for you not saying it's I'm sure always easy, not that I want to assume that. But for someone who's newer to this, like for me who it's a lot like I still have to look at the cheat sheet to look at what am I feeling right now. And that's where I find this work. So valuable is like hanging out with other people that are also trying to figure it out and like, reflect or make guesses. But that it can take some time to recognize what you're feeling, or what your needs are, or and then to also pause and notice when we're making up stories and making guesses on the other person without actually having a conversation with them.

Yeah. And I think that's where I caught the hesitancy in my voice. When you ask the question of like, well, why is it you know, that you went directly into the call? And I'm like, oh, right, because I actually would love to teach people to take the pause, like to take the breath, to do the journaling, to do the question of like, what am I feeling here? What am I needing? And then even just take more space to be like, Hmm, I wonder what needs could have been going on? For the other person? In this case? My dad, what needs could have been going on for him? That I'm not seeing in the first glance, yeah, that if I spent a little bit of time in this case, looking at the words of the email, I might be able to figure out Yeah, so that by the time I call, I am, I have really done a good job of unhooking from my story. Yeah, I'm full. I'm connected to my needs. I'm connected to the potential of his needs. And now I'm just curious. Yeah. I mean, I might still have, I probably still have some heat, like, we often carry with us some heat. But there's something about just being like, I actually don't know the details of what's going on. Yeah. In, in so many circumstances globally,

and what that kind of to weave in some of my language the way way I experienced that is like, okay, when I'm, when I'm shifted into, for your example, this surprise, and worry, and nervousness that's there, I might find myself in more of a vortex where I'm not clear with my thoughts. It's harder for me to decipher my emotions, or what's you know, what's at play? So having that opportunity to pause and notice, what am I experiencing? And what patterns are showing up here? Like you're suggesting, taking some time to journal? I know in nonviolent communication space, if you have a space, right, there's something called Jacqueline, where it's like, like, let's just jackal out all everything that's in the room, all the different realities that exist all the different parts that exists, yeah, so that it can be weeded out. And there can be more clarity of like, oh, there's this, in my words, this, this survival pattern or these needs, or these feelings, and I can pan out and come at things from this place of wholeness and understanding of all the pieces, not all, but most of the pieces, the pieces that are at play, and then I can have the conversation from a very different place than when I'm in the vortex. Yes. So when I'm in in it, versus when I pause and notice and give myself some time to untangle more of what's at play or see more about what's at play, I can have a conversation from a very different place.

I love that. And I love that you brought in the jackal? Because I think there are so many. There's such a tendency, and I think there's a lot of modalities out there that shift us quickly out of our place of activation and into sense make Yes, yeah. And so one of the things that I knew that calming yourself down and one of the things that I love about Jacqueline is it allows me to learn stuff about myself that I might have skipped over. Yes. And so Jacqueline is this like free permission of And to not unload it on somebody else, but to allow myself to express whether I'm talking aloud to myself whether I'm writing or whether I'm just flow of consciousness, letting myself sort through my thoughts. But not making any of them wrong, like really inviting those voices in so that I can learn about stuff that I didn't know was important. Or that I didn't know, had had some input from previous experiences. Yeah.

So I'm laughing a little because one of the first times we hung out, I don't know if you remember, we were in the van driving back to the ferry. Yeah. And you were explaining jackals to me. And I was like, I don't have jackals because everything's fine. Like, I get over it so quickly. I don't have the Jacqueline. I don't see I roll into the thoughts. And I really shame myself or you know, because it's like, everything's fine. I don't need to. I'm right. Thank you very much. You know, yeah. So yeah, it's learning more about listening to the underlying layers. Yes. And and giving more space for that has been really helpful to see more of the perspectives that are at play that I often shut down. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think

there's something soothing to for those inner parts that have a chance to be fully heard and expressed in those moments, that in fact, when we let those jackals out, when we let the jackals howl, that might be completion for us. Yeah, yeah, that might be the work that needs to be done to attend to our needs. So maybe to give a conclusion to my story. So I did phone and I shared and I spoke immediately to the needs that I mentioned in terms of in terms of autonomy and choice. And I think also around collaboration. And, and I quickly realized how how this was putting my dad into a place of defensiveness and wanting to be seen for his intentions. And, and so because I was holding my my needs, I was able to I was able to hear that we he and I had had a miscommunication. Yeah. And he he had picked up on it. And he knew that there was urgency to it. Right. And he also knew that we were talking about numbers and complexity, right? With numbers, yes. And that that is not my strong suit. And, and that, I believe, he also realized that he had tried to communicate something to me in the past that I wasn't getting. And so he was wanting to be as proactive as possible, to make sure that it was articulated in a way that reflected the reality in a way that I might not have had the capacity.

You see numbers very differently. And he had something to share with you to support your learning around.

He's got he's got so many gifts, and this and so much experience. Yeah. Which I really appreciate. And so I was very quickly able, or at least relatively easy, easily able to shift into seeing that his email going out was a reflection of his care, and his support, and his concern. And his need. For clarity. Right. And order. And safety. Yeah, yeah.

And those came through having the conversation with him. Yeah, right. You're not making assumptions about it. It's very clear, yes, after talking, because this is where I think I at least speaking for myself, if you don't have the conversation, you don't really know. And I pick up lots of stories. Yeah, but by really having that conversation that creates more understanding, right?

Yes, yes. And as I got the understanding of what was going on for him, my nervous system just starts to melt. Because even though I try not to get hooked in story, until we know the reality of what some somebody else is experiencing, or what was going on for somebody, we are stuck in the emotional response to the impact versus connecting to the needs that were alive the intent that was behind those, the the strategy Yeah. And, and even if we got to a place where, like, if I got to a place with my dad, where let's say his primary need was for safety, and I didn't really agree that his strategy met that need it's, it still allows me a release in my nervous system to be he was tending to a need for safety in a way that was really

important to him. You have empathy for him and understand him and how where he's coming from doesn't mean you agree, right? But there's space to have empathy for him and be like, yes. And yeah, there's my experience or my need around this. Yeah, that's

right. Yeah. And, and in this instance, and I might be, I'll have to go back to my recollection of of how I came to it. But the natural request that comes out of this, for me, is kind of following an acknowledgement and appreciation of of what he did to care for those needs is to add on for next time. Would you be willing to run this by me first, and then we could send it together jointly, because that would also meet my needs for collaboration and connection, in addition to autonomy choice, my own sense of clarity and understanding. Yeah. So so that's where the request comes in. Because of course, I went in with an expectation that he would do that. Yeah. Right. And yet, there was no clear request. I have not, I have not made a clear request for those for that before that. Yeah. And so it's only through sorting through moments when somebody doesn't meet your expectations. Yeah. That you're like, Oh, we didn't have an agreement around that. Yeah. Next time. Next time? Can we do it differently? Yeah. And, and so the shift between staying angry about somebody not making your ex meeting your expectations, is that instead of piling the responsibility on the other person for it, I'm staying with the responsibility of making the request to achieve what I'm wanting to have, or what I'm wanting to get to.

And recognizing the request is just a request that they can say now that they can say no, otherwise, it's a demand when you drop that is actually in the car with my dad on one of our calls. Yeah. And you named that. And I had to, like, tell my dad right away, because like, Dad, just so you know, the difference between a request and a demand is when you request something, someone can say no. Or when you demand there's an expectation or

Yeah, yeah. Yes. I mean, one added layer to it is how do we just give ourselves permission to hear demands as requests? Yes. So that we're always giving ourselves permission to say, No, I love

that. So if something feels like a demand, I can pause and notice, it feels like someone's demanding something to me. How can I back away from that a little and see it as a request? And notice myself? What is this really that? I want to say yes or no to? Yes. And then noticing what comes up at the idea of saying no, yeah, and there's more survival patterns that probably show up around? No, yeah. And to be able to notice

that. And so one of the shifts that can be done around that is if I noticed that I'm not in agreement with the strategy that somebody suggested, yeah, like somebody suggested something or asked me to do something. And I noticed there's an immediate no to it. What I can get curious about is, is there a way for me to meet the need without agreeing agreeing to the strategy, which can be easier for our nervous systems? To to move away from? Like, I'm not saying no to the person? Yes. I'm not saying no to what their needs are. I'm saying no to not at that time, not that particular activity. Like, like, let's say, it's like, a friend asked me to go to a movie tonight. And I'm feeling fatigued, and I don't enjoy the movie they've suggested. Yeah, I can see no, but I can say it. But I would love to do something with you, when you've got the energy. And when it's an activity we'd both love to do. And maybe that's a really simple example.

But it's but it's also simple is easier to start with, right? So when someone's making even a request, and you're, you all tend to always say yes to things even when you don't necessarily want to, there can be that opportunity and the easier things to pause and notice like Oh, I feel like I should say yes. Wait, it's actually a No How do I notice the know inside of me? Okay, now with the idea of saying no, it equals I'm a bad friend. They're not right. Reach out to me again, later. Like all the meanings, all the all the vortexes we can find ourselves in, then it's like, oh, wait, I can find a solution here to still maintain connection, not move myself into my shame spiral. And make suggestions. Yes, that allow me to stay in connection with this person and not have me feel shame for saying no, or feel forced to say yes, I love that. Something stood out to me that I wanted to speak to and what you were sharing with your dad, which is you're able to have the conversation with him. Right? Which is huge. Yeah, I don't. I don't. There's many conversations I want to have with my mom and my dad as examples because that's just where we're at right now. Many other people Well, yeah, where I will just freeze. So the idea of sharing what I'm feeling and what my needs are and making requests, it's like the idea of just talking to this person. Yes, I instantly feel my chest, tighten my jaw clench. Yeah. And I started losing clarity of thought, and there's no way I could move towards Yeah. Taking action. Yeah. So of course, that's going to be more rooted in trauma and the entanglement of what's coupled into me talking to someone and the fear of the consequences that are involved in that. But I wanted to name that just as we practice, discovering our feelings and our needs and learning how to make requests and have conversations around what it is like, practicing this is like, so hard. So just naming that someone's curious about like, okay, diving deeper into this to also notice, like, this isn't easy, it isn't easy to have conversations and show up in these vulnerable places, especially when the people we might be talking to don't have any of this language online, which I'm imagining your dad doesn't maybe he does, because he's because of what you've modeled. But yeah, anything you want to name around that of like,

yeah, thank you for, for naming that. And the first piece that I want to catch is when the other person doesn't have the capacity to hear us, we're bringing our truth forward, bringing, bringing even something from a really deep place of self connection, and groundedness. And care would still be triggering for somebody. Yeah. And I think when we notice our nervous system, tense up and hold fear, and the need for safety in those moments, it's not necessarily trauma, it's it's information, it's ours information, experience with this individual that is letting us know, this person doesn't may not have the capacity to be able to hear what you have to share with them. And so that's what discernment comes in, around what does this person have the capacity to hear? Am I able to translate it in a way that they can hear? Can I use words that I know they relate to? Can I use contexts or ways of speaking that I know that they can relate to? And if not, then my work is to do it elsewhere? I love that. And, and so the work elsewhere can be empathy for myself. It can be doing, like with a friend just being like, this is what I was so wanting to say to my, my friend, or my dad or whoever it is, and the act of saying it creates a completion loop for us, when we're holding on to an energy that we're just really longing to the opportunity for expression to do it to do it with a friend. Yes, allows our nervous system to settle as if we had done it. Yeah, with that individual. It's moving

through the cycle, moving through the experience and landing back and connection back and safety back in. I mean, it doesn't always need to be safety and connection. Because if there's a rupture and an ending, that's right, you know, that might happen too.

But that's right to last the other part yes to notice when I'm repeatedly facing the result that the person I'm with doesn't have the capacity to hear my truth, then how am I choosing to be in relationship with this person? And am I choosing to be in relationship person? Yeah, with this person? and for what reasons? Yes. And I think there is something about family is that we choose to remain in engagement with family for all the needs that are met, even when we're still holding the needs that might not be met, like around bringing the whole expression of ourselves forward.

Yeah. So because there's that much more history there that meets other needs and these other needs. Yeah, yeah. I appreciate you naming that because I have a feeling many people out there are connected with their family but wonder why. Right? Where it's like why do I still stay in this relationship? Or why you know, right, there's something deeper for us to inquire into. But which needs are actually being met hear that and to honor those or to bring more light to those who are recognizing Okay, these new needs will probably never be met. How can I go get them met somewhere else? Yes. And

just to bring my my transparency forward. This is a constant learning journey for me like with my my conversation with my dad this morning, had I taken more time to get really grounded in what was going on for me. I think he would have had a much easier time listening to me. The defense engineering have come up as mad Yeah. And I would have I would have loved to have brought more care, particularly knowing how much he loves to contribute, and how alive. That energy was in our dynamic. And I find that heartbreaking. Yeah. And you can celebrate it with him. Yes. Just like how much I want him to know how much that matters. Yeah. And it makes me teary talking about it. Because when I connect to, to people, when I connect to my dad around the places that that he has, you know, so much love to give and this way of giving it, I want to be able to receive that and hold my own staff. With with, with care and find that sweet spot, that sweet spot of how can I bring the maximum amount of truth forward with the maximum amount of care? Yeah, and it's this constant dance of like, where's that? Where's that sweet spot of truth and care?

And sometimes hard to find?

And sometimes it's hard to find. And maybe that's the thing is that there's no right formula? Yeah, yeah. That we're constantly finding that within ourselves and within our relationships. Yeah. with other people. Yeah. And, and there was just one other piece related to your example of when it brings too much fear up within ourselves. That's the other piece of discernment is just our own capacity. Yes. Because we could be talking to somebody that has full capacity to hear honesty. And yet our discomfort with past experiences and other circumstances lead us to have limited capacity. Yeah. And in those situations, I think it's a matter of holding that holding that with care. Yeah. And understanding. And there is the potential that I practice it with somebody else first, I get comfortable with it, I play with it, I get creative, and then see if I can bring it this exactly.

So that's where what I do weaves in, right. It's like, oh, notice this pattern of like, I don't have capacity here. I'm pausing and noticing that this is really challenging for me, and how can I start to get more inquisitive about the ways I'm getting stuck, or I'm freezing, or I'm dissociating, or whatever it is, whatever patterns are involved with speaking up, or expressing What's there for me, it's like, Ooh, okay, I get to pause and notice and DDI awareness around the pattern and discover maybe a little bit more of what the underlying belly pieces are usually the trauma the place for stuck in that threat response cycle. And then how do I start to support myself more from this place of wholeness and holding the compassion and care? For the reasons why this conversation is hard? Or these conversations are hard? Yeah. And yeah, that's what I really enjoy. Like there's a lot with MVC that also works alongside how I work. Where's the Yeah, I do we have empathy for ourselves in the ways we're showing up in the world. And these patterns we're stuck in, or empathy just for ourselves in our feelings and our needs. Because we're humans, and we have feelings and needs. Yeah.

Yeah. I really appreciate that as well, the ways that these are the ways that the embodied explorations of past experiences and traumas adds a deeper richness, to looking at our needs. Yes. To where do these needs become activated? Yeah, habitually. And from where did that first first start that those needs because often when I go back, like when I noticed a need, even for something just really inconsequential? It will, if I have had a reaction to something that's kind of inconsequential. On the surface, it's because you know, there's so much history so Can Can I start to be in relationship with my needs, where I'm like, Oh, funny, that need for belonging is up again. Yeah. You know, in this moment, all right. Yeah, that's, that's that need that I'm just continuing to try and attend and care for, and not dump on every relationship that I'm on is to meet that need for belonging, because it's an empty pit that you're never gonna be able to

say, because I never go along from in the first place. So I'm gonna Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think that's really important for us, again, pausing and noticing is where I'm always practicing is like, in my need. When is it rooted in some history? Yeah. And when is it rooted just in the dynamic that's at play? Yeah. And for me, it's important to recognize like when the need itself is reliant on someone else, or I'm hyper independent, right. So here's the spectrum that we find ourselves in with our need. It's like, I'm depending on you to meet my need. Yes. Or I'm independent, and I don't need anything from you. Yeah. And that's more of my experience. So like, if I think about having a conversation around my dad, or with my dad around something, it's it moves right back into well, I'm fine. And I can do this myself. Yeah. And if I dig deeper, there's, it's it's not okay to be needy. Right, right. Like, being needy is my story. My you know, there's a route in there of like, I have to be in my independence. The neediness is what I need to do more inquiring into, like, how do I actually be needy? That scares the crap out of me. Right? So that's my end of the spectrum, whereas other people are going to be born. allow myself

the vulnerability and the risk. And yeah, interconnected with mine. Yeah,

yeah. Yeah. So as that softens, there's more ability to be in the riskiness of more vulnerable conversations Yes, with my dad or anyone, but there's that for me. That's my end of the spectrum. I'm we're in that hyper independence, yes. Whereas other people might relate more to the needy Nis and depending on other people to constantly be meeting the needs, because they, they didn't ever have their needs met, either on the other end, right. And it's more of the reaching versus the pushing away. Yeah, yeah. So I just find it so fascinating to pay attention to the quality of my needs. And then that provides me with more information of what kind of history they might be coming with. And then I can hold them a little bit and practice, still making requests around my needs being met with people where it feels safer to do so where there's more of a willingness to be in the edges of the neediness. Yes. And and support a change in the story. Right? Yeah, almost support a rewriting to happen, like, oh, I can actually receive here and I'm okay. And supporting? What? What wasn't there? Or, you know, whatever, whatever reason? Yeah, the lack of needing, is there gets to be rewritten. Yeah. Yeah. So I just love like, the more I can see the history, the more I can play with my edges as the adult here. Yes. Finding what else is possible. Yeah. If I don't have that awareness, I'm going to probably still show up. And in my history a little bit more. Yeah.

And the pattern of tending to needs you put yourself versus putting a request out there or even versus the vulnerability of letting people know you have me? Yes.

Yeah. Exactly. ongoing practice right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To the on the edge of the vulnerability of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I have one more piece, I want to weave into this conversation. And it feeds into what we just talked about, in that, you know, as my hyper independent person, I can often be villainized. And someone else who sees me, or is met with me, and my independence might feel like they're the victim because I'm not meeting their needs. Right? Right. So if someone makes a request to me, I might back away and be like, No, don't need me, you know? And then I'm more of the villain. Yes. And then that person feels more like a victim. Yeah. And I wanted to speak that with that a little adding in the layer of the helper as well. Because I find it's easy for us. I at least when I learned about this, it was easy to identify and recognize, like when I'm more of a villain, and when I'm more of a victim. Okay. Yeah. And when I'm also a bit more of a hero, which that's not one of my like, This to me is like the survival patterns. Yeah, I got either because we probably can relate to all of them. But I can relate more to being the victim or the villain, you know, the victim and the hero. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, I'd love to dive into that a little bit more. Okay. Because it Yeah, allows us to pay more attention. So,

so the villain victim hero is not the original language, but it's the language that I play with around Cartman, this comes from Garth Hartman's Drama Triangle that he put out in 1968. And the idea is that rather than taking responsibility for our needs, and identifying needs and others, we tend to ping pong around. Either being in the either being in the victim role where we feel that somebody else is to blame, and that we've been wronged. And then we cast somebody else as as the villain in the story. Or we get into sort of more martyrdom of like, you know, I've done everything right. You know, I've worked so hard at this. I've you know, I can't believe that you're bringing this small issue up, given Everything I've done. So again, I'm blaming, I'm still casting in in the villain role. But I kind of toggle back and forth either being like, I can't believe you did that to me. I've done so much. So I'm kind of bouncing back and forth between being the victim and being the hero. And the thing about the Drama Triangle is that there's no winner. You know, we're constantly trying to win the game. Yeah. Of, of who's to blame? And the game, the winning of the game is like, I wasn't the one that was wrong. Yeah. And then the other person who is doing the same, and as we shift places on the triangle, we just continue to rotate around it.

Yeah. In a way, it's a power dynamic, or it can that can be an aspect of it is this constant power dynamic we can find ourselves in? Yeah. And, and this dance that we can do in between shaming and blaming, and how easy it is. I'm going to speak to it more from the pattern perspective and what I feel somatically it's like a, if I blame someone else, I can be protected and stay okay. Yeah. If I take it on, and I'm really moving more into, I'm the victim, I live in that shame, and I carry it all. And the way I notice it in people is like, when you're more, you lean more towards Shane, and taking it all on, there's this getting smaller, there's this spiraling in the in the victimhood is this, you know, I'm wrong, I'm bad. And

this one, too, and as well, exactly, yeah. ternal Drama Triangle where we're

Yeah. villainizing our ourselves, yes, yes, for naming that. Whereas those that are more in the villain, you know, I My body's changing, I'm standing up, right, I don't do wrong, I take up more space, and more assertive, don't mess with me, I'm protected and nothing hurts me. Right. And they're less likely to move into any shame or take responsibility or even move into that victim quality. And I find that's important to recognize, because then we can see those that are like live life and move through life in more of that, that quality, right, versus those that are more in this quality of like, getting small, hide, stay quiet, don't speak up, you know, this. I mean, there's so many layers to our experiences, but it's kind of one end of the spectrum or the other, right, and I find it really helpful to see people in those dynamics. Yes.

And just to be clear that what we're ideally trying to do is step off of the triangle entirely. So that we, I think of it as stepping into the middle. I mean, it's sort of choosing to exit the game. It's not even playing the game differently. It's like, I'm actually not going to engage in this game. Because there's no answer that can be found to the questions. That's the wrong questions. Yeah. And, and so instead of playing the game of who's right, we're, we're we're playing the game of curiosity of like, what's alive in you? And what's alive in me? Yeah. You know, where do we have a shared experience? And where do we have a different experience? And what can I learn about you in the process and and how rich it can be for me learning about me? Yeah, process as well.

Yeah. I want a name that we haven't named really much about the third piece of the Drama Triangle, which is the helper to also be stepping out of

Right. Right. And maybe that's because the way that I play with it, I'm playing with it is villain victim hero here and so right, I'm not helper, I'm not bringing and and the helper for from my perspective is, is the is the martyrdom, right is the martyrdom role. And, and so the toggle in what I most frequently see is moving back and forth between victim and hero while casting the other person as the as the villain and then them doing the same. And then that just that curious thing that happens if you ever have the chance to play with this is stepping from when we're locked in that gridlock of the Drama Triangle. How completely energy shifting it is to step into the middle and be like, actually, I'd just like to know more about what was going on for you in that moment because I can see that there's something that really matters to you like that. I can see that there's an emotional responses happening for you like I can see that you're mad and I don't totally get it. And so I just love to know more. And so you're no longer playing the game. Yeah, the second the second that you ignite your curiosity, you may still have the person being defensive because of their ability to trust. But it but that question immediately takes them out of the place of villainizing. You Yeah. And more into them, and what matters to them? And I think that's the framing is this, like we use the word needs, but it's, it's fundamentally asking, like, what really matters to you? Like, what's the song in your heart that's singing around being seen, or around mattering or around belonging, or? Yeah, back to belonging again? A big one. Yeah, it is mattering. mattering. And belonging are often big. But also, you know, appreciation. Yeah, care support, like, collaboration, collaboration, whatever, it whatever. That matters so much. You. Were in contact conflict. Yeah. Just being like, Oh, something really matters to you. Yeah. And so instead of me negating that, something really matters to you. Can I fold that in? Can I fold that in? And be curious? Not taking it on? Not like, Oh, it's my job to make sure that you get your needs for belonging met.

Yeah. But just to acknowledge that there's a need here. Yes. And that matters

to me. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you have a need for belonging that matters to me. And so it, it opens my heart, not necessarily to make me set all my life aside and to tend to you and caretake you, that's not what I want. But I want your needs to be present. Yeah, for me to be able to hold them with care and say, you know, I see that. Yeah. And I wonder if like, it gets us into the kind of more space and I wonder, I wonder if like, what could we do to make each other's lives more beautiful. And all this? I

love even just the invitation to step out of the triangle for me, I instantly feel space, like I took a breath when you invite in that. And there's a sense of like, oh, yeah, right, something else is possible here. it reconnects me back into myself and with the other person in a different way with my environment in a different way. Yes. And there's just this like, oh, right, here I am with these needs and these feelings happening, but there's more space around them, versus just being in the vortex of this dynamic. Yeah. And I think even for me, just knowing like, oh, wait, can I pause and notice and like I'm in this dynamic? And can I step out? Yeah. And maybe the cue is, after I step out, like, Hey, I'm noticing something really matters here. Yeah. Can we have more of a conversation around this?

Yes. And and it can be that it can be very difficult to step in to the curiosity about what's going on for the other, if we don't first step into the curiosity of what's going on ourselves. So just just to name that can be really challenging to stop. And just get curious about the other one, we're activated. Yes. But that is the magic. Yeah, that that is the transformational magic of instead of waiting for the other person, yeah, to get curious about us is, Can Can we choose to step in first? Yeah.

Well, and what comes up for me, it's like, I might be able to step out and ask a question. But if I step out and share what I'm feeling, yeah, the person might not be ready to hear it yet. They have to step out first, too. So by stepping out and asking them the question first on how like, something matters to them. Yeah. It's like, Oh, yeah. I it could be the opportunity for them to be seen a little bit more of like, oh, yeah, something does matter. And they actually are giving me a moment to actually speak to it. Yes. And so this dance of like, stepping out, acknowledging Wait, I've got some stuff to unpack here. Yes, and untangle, while also creating that space for them to not that the agenda is to have them step off of that triangle, but to create the opportunity for that to happen,

or longing for connection. In all have our relationships. Yeah. Or what we're longing for safe connection. Yeah. In all of our relationships. So, so the potential is, is that we're inviting people into that. Yeah. And if they have the capacity, yeah. Then Then we create that opening and that opportunity, and then

we're back in an interdependent relationship. Yeah. And that's where empathy becomes so available, and their collaboration becomes so much more available and yeah, just being in Yeah, that interdependence.

Yes. Yeah. I think that interdependent energy can exist, even if the other person doesn't have the capacity. Yes, good point. There. There's something about the energetic shift that can happen when I tune into you, even if I'm longing for you to tune into me in the same way. And and if I can hold that awareness that you might not have the capacity to go to the same place. Yeah, I can I can sit with the morning. Yeah, there might be some grief there around not being met in that. But if I can hold that, and then just just notice that that we've shifted. Yeah. And and then it then we I mean, we've got a changed atmosphere. Yeah, I guess that we're sitting in. Yeah. And then the question is, Can I now invite us both to get our needs met? So I might not be able to be fully heard in the way that I would like, but I could ask, I could even say, you know, like, oh, it's been so great to hear what's going on for you. And I think you get me. And I wonder if you just tell me like one thing that you got out of listening to me. So I could ask for that. Yeah. Yeah. And then I could say, and so what could we creatively do? Like knowing where we're at differently?

Yeah. Where elaborations to try to find solutions. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Solutions are? Yeah, yeah.

And when the sweet spot for me when I noticed that I'm in it, is often when it matters to me that you get your needs met as much as me getting my own needs met. Like, that's when I know I've shifted Yeah, is when a fight and lobbying for you. Like, I might have started off in the drama triangle where I am like, that's such bullshit. No, you always need to be whatever it is, like, you always need to get your way. And by the end of it when I'm like, I actually want not that you get your way. But I want you to have your needs met. Yeah. You know, when I feel that, like I am cheerleading for us all to get our needs met versus? Yeah, really, for mine, which

is what you expressed when you talked about your dad, there was that shift into right, really recognizing and actually mourning not entering the conversation already celebrating? Yeah, his needs?

Yes, yes. And given the nature of my relationship, I think to all people probably like my own patterns of relationship, bringing my vulnerability and my emotional reality forward is a gift to myself. And love that versus having processed at all and showing up with, I'm guessing your need was to contribute here. Yeah. You know, like,

I kind of put yourself to the side.

Yeah, yeah. And, and it's, it's not to say that, if you can choose to hold that, like, if I can choose to hold that, and not bring any of that forward. And there's just a piece of discernment around what would be in best service here. And it's not always gonna land, you know, but

you, you practice,

I think it's just this thing about expanding the spectrum of what we're able to do in relationship like that I have increased, like the ability to increase our literacy with each other, like that. I'm like, Oh, I've got competence to show up in this whole range of topics with this whole range of people. Yeah. Whereas in the past, my capacity was like, this big for this many people. Yeah. So the bigger we can, like we're giving ourselves the inner freedom, you have this inner freedom of expression of being whole and being ourselves and knowing that if something puts us into a place of threat, we also have the skills to say no to make to meet our needs to connect back. Yes. So it creates this resilience as well. Yeah, so greater spectrum of how I can show up in the world greater spectrum of people I can show up with greater spectrum of topics I can show up with maps and the resources to take care of myself and like accessing a lot of the tools that you bring forward and the work that you're going to do that you do even amplifies that yeah, you know reducing the repetition of our habitual pattern and killing those places Yeah.

And what I what I what stands out to me in that is like the on its ongoing the edges with that we get to explore and we're we're slightly uncomfortable. Yeah. continues to be there. Right. And that's what challenges us to increase our capacity the more we can learn to meet the edges and explore within those edges and it doesn't have to be this big edge like I don't have to go have this deep heart to heart with my dad right now. Yes, but there's the these ways I can explore the edges of that with him right and feel slightly uncomfortable. Yeah, see what happens and what evolves. Out of that, yes. Right. So, and that's what continues to increase our ability to have more conversations with more people about more topics.

And yes, yes. And I think also choose very specific strategies for different people we're in relationship with. So that I think, what I've found is that students will always often anticipate that my stories are that all of my relationships are very open, very transparent, like the we've achieved a place of like loving transparency and can hold vulnerability. That's not the case. The case is that in all of my relationships, I'm navigating my own capacity, and I'm navigating the capacity of the people that I'm with, and I may have a very limited window that I'm capable of connection with, for certain people. Yeah. But rather than focusing on on trying to bust that wide open and make the relationship include all I find ways to celebrate the space that's open and continue to connect in those in those places for those that I've chosen, like, family in particular, that I want close. Yeah, I love that. And not expecting every relationship to meet all needs. Exactly. To really be clear that in this relationship, I get this whole set of needs met and wow, does that ever feel good? And for the needs that I don't get met in this particular relationship? I do with this friend or with with with with, with this family member? Yeah,

exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. So much to learn through all these practices, that's for sure. Yeah, I noticed that my like

heart's racing with it all and that I this sense of aliveness and also fullness. And, and maybe a little bit of like, oh, there's a need for grounding for me right now. And

well, we've different dove into a lot. Yeah.

Thank you for opening, opening the door to it. Oh, yeah.

I'm excited to have the door be open for more people. Yeah. Resources. I know. You're planning on doing potentially another six months container for sold speech in the fall, maybe even a couple? It was arm involved in person? So it's yes, they

do. So it does mean people that are able to get to the west coast of Canada. But for those that are able to get to the west coast of Canada, it's a series of three, four day retreats in person.

So Rich, yeah.

They're they're pretty. Yeah, great opportunity

for learning and finding those edges of the vulnerability and exploring through practicing with other people who are also learning Yeah, just really supports. Yeah, those opportunities to practice and be messy through it. Yeah, I

think in the four years that I've run these immersion programs, they create a container for people to build relationships in, so that they can process in real time. Yes. Things that that come up. So and then in addition to that, there's weekly calls, both teaching calls, as well as empathy calls. So you're, you're paired up with somebody to practice with throughout the six month. And then the other resource I would suggest is that if people are curious to know more, you can go on to the Center for nonviolent communication website, which is cnbc.org. We'll link it below too great. And there are international intensives that are nine days long in all parts of the world. And those are incredibly rich experiences. Just really deep dive, nine

days of talking about your needs and your feelings and your needs.

Yeah, yeah. And building community and having these tight home groups that work together, as well as the learning. And then there's also a full list. There's a map on that site that will link you to nonviolent communication trainers around the world. Cool. We are very active in in many, many parts of the world, in many, many different languages, lots of written resources in different languages. And then my website is my name. So it's Angela walkley.com. And that's where I post what I'm what I'm up to perfect

and love it. Thank you. Thank you for the ongoing learning and for the friendship where I get to also ongoingly practice and also have you my model with me. I've learned so much even just through our relationship and the way you approached me about things I remember this time where I was supposed to come Meet you for an event. And yeah, I had, I already was having hesitancy about going to the event and I ended up having car issues. So the car issues solved the problem for me, I didn't have to go. And you approached me and let me know how disappointed you were because it impacted the group it impacted the container. Yeah. And that thought didn't even cross my mind, right? I was just like, well, I don't feel like going and the van broke down. So I'm just not gonna go. And to be to have you approached me and share what you were feeling around it and that certain needs around being in connection with me and deepening our connection and being in collaboration more than that wasn't going to happen, that that really impacted you. And it really, it really opened my eyes to be like, right, my actions impact other people, which I of course, knew but not in, not in relationships where I got to have conversations about it. So I'm, yeah, I'm really grateful for the opportunity for ongoing learning with you and even friendship and deepening the relationship we

have together. Thank you, Nicole. Yeah, it's very neutral. I really love what I what I learned when in relationship with you. And also because I've been the had the benefit of your sessions as well. Yeah, yeah. Yes.

Here's the ongoing learning journey. Yeah. Thank you. Right. All right. Thanks, everyone, for listening and hopefully, the resources and the insights that you get through this Yeah, take you take you to deeper places.