We often feel guilty for things out of our control. But why should we feel guilty about things we aren’t responsible for?

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Welcome to a very special bonus episode.

This is our very first q and a session with, um, me.

I'm Rachel Morris, I'm host of the You Are Not a Frog podcast, and also with me I have, uh, Dr.

Sarah Coope.

Now, Sarah has joined me in World Monday, which I'm really excited about.

Sarah, just, just introduce yourself and tell us what your role is now.

Yeah, I will do.

Thank you Rachel, it's great to be here.

So I'm so excited.

I'm working more closely with you now as Director of Training at Wild Monday, and it's just brilliant to be working with you.

We've worked together for a few years, haven't we?

But it's just fantastic.

So I've joined you to, to take over the live training side of things.

People that listen to the podcast regularly, you'll know, Sarah anyway, you've been on a couple of podcasts sharing, sharing your wisdom, and, uh, not only are you a former GP, Sarah, you're a, a trained mediator.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So former GP worked as a GP for 20 years, but really through the last sort of 10, 15 years, got very interested in conflict resolution.

So I was doing quite a lot of coaching with doctors and other healthcare professionals and noticed that a big theme that came through was conflict.

And so I trained as a mediator to really help in that space.

So coaching, but with that mediation side of things.

And then I've worked in medical protection or medical legal sort of field, and also at NHS resolution.

So I've had that real interest in managing complaints, but also managing, um, difficult situations.

it it's an area that most people like run a mile from, don't they, Sarah?

Like, are you a glutton for punishment or something?

I know, I think, I think I did, to be honest.

I think that's why I got interested in it because it wasn't an area that I felt particularly comfortable or confident in, And I knew I wanted to get much better at it so that I could be more effective myself.

So just to let people know, these episodes, we realized that we didn't really have anything in You Are Not a Frog where we could answer listeners' questions, where we could share what we'd been up to, what we've been hearing, address some of the issues that've been coming up on the Facebook group through some of the courses we've been doing.

So we're starting this, uh, bonus monthly question and answer episode.

It's gonna be part of our new membership, which we're gonna introduce to you later.

But so we're trying out some formats so we'd love feedback on if this is useful, uh, what else you'd like to hear about, all those sorts of things we can get special guests on in the future as well.

So we thought we'd start off by talking about what we're hearing, what people are asking us, um, and what we've been, you know, experiencing throughout the last month.

Because I've been, I've been all over the place, Sarah, and I know you've been to various different places as well, meeting, meeting people.

Isn't it nice firstly, isn't it so nice to go to face-to-face events and actually talk to people rather than just like watching them on screens?

It is, it's just that the energy, isn't it?

There's nothing like being in the room with people.

I, I often talk about being 3D rather than 2D, just being in the room, really picking up a lot of the, more of the nonverbal cues, but also just connecting with people.

It's been great, hasn't it?

So, yeah, we were chatting with we the other day and thought it'd be really helpful to share a little bit about what we're hearing and what we're noticing.

So what, what have you been noticing in the last few weeks, Rachel, while you've been, um, doing more in-person work?

Yeah, so I've, I've done quite a few events.

In fact, last week I was all the way around the country, so I went, I went to Southampton to do a, a GP trainers group, the Lead, Lead Without Rescuing session.

Then I went down to Taunton to do a session for GPS on how to design a career you're gonna love, and then I went to Cornwall to do a women in leadership and in practice, uh, conference for Kerno Health.

Again, GPs on how to design a career and a life you're gonna love.

And it's really interesting 'cause even though those were separate teaching sessions, the same issue came up in all three of them.

And that is around the zone of power.

And we talk about the zone of power all the time.

So if you've listened to the podcast very much, you'll have heard me talk about the zone of power.

For people that aren't familiar with it, it's literally a circle on a sheet of paper and it talks about what you are in control of and what you are not in control of.

So everything inside the circle is the stuff you're in control of.

Everything outside the circle is the stuff that you are not in control of.

And I often start sessions by doing the zone of power with people, because in my mind it's the fundamental question we need to ask because if you're not in control of it, you can't really do anything about it.

And actually that, that was where people got stuck at the first hurdle.

Because for example, in in a GP trainers group, and this, this happens with, with any GP trainer I talk to, really, I start by asking, you know, what do you feel responsible for?

And there's so much we feel responsible for, isn't there?

Um, and then when you get to be a leader in any shape, way, shape or form, or you're supervising people, you then feel really responsible for them and what they're doing and um, and what they're learning and if they pass their exams and if they're happy at work and if they're enjoying what they're doing and if they stay as a GP and stuff.

And then suddenly we feel very responsible for all this stuff that's not in our control at all.

And when we plot that out on a piece of paper, whether it's being responsible for your trainees or when we talk about design a career that you're gonna love, it's, it's, it's like stuff in your workplace and what's going on and with the patients and what's going on with funding and resources and stuff.

There's loads of stuff that's just so outside of our control.

There's absolutely nothing we can do about it, but we feel very responsible for it.

And that's where we then get stuck and we can't set boundaries because we think, well, I've, I've, I've got to just keep working like this and I can't make any changes because I'm responsible for this stuff, even though I don't really have any control.

And we, I think we then try and control it by just saying yes to everything, even though it's totally uncontrollable.

And what, what people were asking in, in all three sessions were, well, hang on a sec, that's stuff that's out of my control.

I can't just let it go.

I can't because what we teach is that, well, you've got two choices for that stuff that's out of your control.

But either you can get really frustrated and anxious about it, or you can accept it.

And then we talked about what does unclouded acceptance look like?

But as I was teaching this, and this is one of the, the insights I sort of came across this week, I realized I wonder if we've been teaching this a bit wrong.

'Cause I've been teaching actually the, the response is to feel really frustrated and anxious about the stuff that's outside of our control.

And yes, we do, but that wasn't the emotion I was hearing predominantly.

The predominant emotion I was feeling was guilt.

That we feel guilty for the stuff that's outside our control.

Guilty, even when there's nothing we can do about it.

So then the question came, and I can't remember which session it was, but you know, should we feel guilty for stuff that's outside our control, or can we feel guilty for stuff that's outside our control, or is it right to feel guilty for stuff that's outside our control?

And I guess my reflection on that is, well, whether it's right or wrong or helpful or not, we do, we do.

So we are feeling guilty for the stuff that's outside our control.

We're feeling guilty if our patients don't get seen at the right time, if they're on a waiting list.

We feel guilty if they can't access the healthcare that they want.

We feel guilty If our trainees fail their exams.

We feel guilty if our, if our kids aren't having a good time.

But all of that is, is outside our control.

So I think the predominant emotion we feel is not frustration, it's guilt.

I was just thinking as you said that there's, people feel guilty for those things that they feel responsible for.

And that's interesting.

It's almost like I feel guilty.

Because I feel responsible, I feel guilty 'cause I can't fix it.

So going back to how we teach it, looking at those things outside of the zone of power, we often talk about how we've just got that choice, as you say, haven't we?

In terms of accepting it or, or becoming more stressed about it.

But I, wonder, my first question is, why do we feel guilty for those things that are outside of our control?

Because they say, well, you know, I, I feel awful if they, if they fail their exams, I feel guilty that patients are suffering or if, if patients come to harm because of stuff, but then it's outside their control.

So I thought, well, what is guilt anyway?

I've been sort of looking that up.

Um, one definition, a feeling of worry or unhappiness that you have because you have done something wrong, such as causing harm to another person.

So that's something that you have, you have done, you have caused harm to another person.

A pang of guilt, she remembered with a pang of guilt she hadn't called her mother, or he suffered such feelings of guilt over leaving his children, things like that.

But actually that is all stuff that you have done or, or, or not, or not done.

That's something you actually have control over.

And guilt, you know, I, I've heard it described as it, it's not a bad emotion.

It actually, it's just an, a warning bell that you, you should do something differently or you could, you could do something differently.

So I actually think that it's, it can't be guilt that we feel outside of zone of power because it's not nothing that we've, we can't do anything.

Therefore, you can't feel guilty about it.

So I've come up with a new word, guiltish.

Interesting.

You are right, because actually guilt when it's in the appropriate sense is something you can then put, right?

That's the thing.

And so the very fact that you can't put this right because it's outside of your control, then the guilt sticks.

So what does guilt, what's the guiltish did you say?

Or

Well, guiltish.

Yeah, because so, for me this is the difference between caring about something and carrying it.

So if I carry something 'cause it is my responsibility and I don't do something that I, I could have done and it's my responsibility then that I will be carrying that and I will carry that guilt and that's appropriate guilt.

I think inappropriate guilt is feeling guilty for something that I can't do anything about, but that I feel de I care deeply about.

Because, and I think for me this difference been carrying and carrying is really, really important.

I can care very deeply about all that stuff is, that's outside my zone of power.

And it might make me feel guilty, but I, that is inappropriate guilt.

So I can maybe feel guiltish because that's, this was another thing I was thinking of.

Somebody asked me, I, I was talking about the feelings of shame that we sometimes feel when our actions have to go against our deeply internally held values.

And someone quite rightly asked me the question, well, why would you ever do something that went against your internal values?

So my example was, a while ago I had, we had somebody join the business and it wasn't working out for them or for us.

They didn't have the skills to do what they needed to do.

And we spotted that quite early on.

And we knew it wouldn't work out for them, and I had to have a conversation saying that we were no longer going to use their services.

Now, that went against every bit of my internal values, like being kind to somebody, not leaving them in the lurch, you know, making sure that they were okay, helping them, but long-term, it wouldn't have helped them.

Long-term it wouldn't have helped us.

We couldn't afford to carry this relationship on, but it did go against some of my internal values.

But for the long-term benefit, I had to have that conversation.

So I felt, I felt awful doing it, but actually I knew it was for the best and actually for this person, obviously they were upset, I was upset, but this, this person has moved on very quickly and they're fine.

And they're much, actually much better off now.

So I felt really guilty because I could have done something different.

And that's the problem.

When we say no about things, and this is in our zone of power, we feel really dreadful about some of these consequences that we, we don't have any control about.

But you know, I could have done something different.

I could have said, yeah, just, just stay, but it won't be good for you or me.

So I felt, so I think this, just transferring that I feel good to know.

I feel guiltish, that that just means I'm doing something that I don't, I don't like.

It's really uncomfortable, but actually knowing deep down it is the right thing to do.

So that's another way I might use the guiltish.

There's that sort of internal conflict in those situations, isn't there where part of you knows it's the right thing to do.

And I think there are still some values that you had to honor in that situation.

So although it went to co against some of your internal values, I guess there were other values that, that decision honored as in, um, high quality work and whatever, I'm, I'm just guessing, but you know, there's certain things that were important to you.

So that makes sense.

I think, I think there's a difference here, isn't there, between guilt and shame, and you've touched on that as well.

And I think I'm still wondering what's happening in that space for those things that are outside of our control that we've are taking on that sense of responsibility.

Are we telling ourselves I should, I should be able to do something?

And we talk a lot about, I know, shoulding ourselves.

So I'd be curious to know what's going on behind that, that feeling of guiltish.

Um, I'm wondering if, is it, is it definitely guilt?

I mean, I talk also about, you talked about inappropriate guilt.

I sometimes think about false guilt.

You know, when we take responsibility, which is exactly what we're talking about, take responsibility for things that are actually not our fault.

But because sometimes we're in that caring role, we again feel like we should be able to make things better.

And that can go deeper into, you know, what's the internal pressure behind that?

You know, what, what's all that about?

So, I don't know.

What, what are your thoughts on:?

I think my thoughts are that I think we have been trained as healthcare professionals, and particularly as doctors, that everything is our responsibility.

So we take on this responsibility that is not ours to take.

I remember when I was a junior house officer, uh, working as a medical, um, house officer, and the coronary care nurses just all decided one day that their certificate for taking blood had run out.

Just gone.

They did the blood run every morning, but they decided theirs had run out.

And so they'd bleeped me and I had to go and do it every day for the next two weeks.

I wasn't happy about it, but I didn't question it.

I didn't say, hang on a sec, that that's not mine to carry that.

You, you need to sort that out.

I've got enough of the stuff to do.

But as you know, I remember as the house office, literally, if the cleaners were sick, you cl, I mean it was just literally you did absolutely everything probably 'cause you didn't really have a role description.

It was like general dogsbody do absolutely everything if no one else would do it.

And because we're good people and want to help and often in healthcare we're very capable, so we just get on and do stuff, even if it might not be our responsibility.

So we've just sort of grown up feeling that everything is our responsibility.

Um, you know, I'm thinking of GP trainers with their trainees, you know.

They even go as far as some people I've heard, you know, will, if the trainee doesn't get their portfolio in time on, in time, they will stay up at, come in on that annual leave to mark people's portfolios and things like that.

Now these are grown doctors.

They've got to themselves to medical school.

The trainees have got themselves to medical school.

They often have families.

They've managed to survive in life.

But we then end up treating them like children, probably 'cause we feel so responsible and we want them to do really well.

But that just infantilizes them and keeps them, keeps them in victim, keeps them not taking any responsibility by continually like putting ourselves out this misplaced sense of guilt.

And does that answer your question a bit?

It does.

I think it's really interesting.

So many thoughts are going through my mind because there's the immediate response, so there's a trigger, isn't there?

And where does that put you?

Either into anger, defensiveness, fear, guilt.

And I think it's interesting how we'll tend to take one of those positions.

I think there's, um.

Also going back to the over responsible.

We also can over function.

So I've often thought about if I over function, somebody else will under function.

And that's in every situation, isn't it?

If at home you over function, somebody else will tend to under function.

And I, I think it's, again, recognizing those patterns.

And we talk about the drama triangle quite a bit, don't we?

And how we can easily take that.

You said a bit, you did that session Lead Without Rescuing.

So for GP trainers or su educational supervisors in secondary care or any health professional in a, in a sort of supervisory, um, training role, I think it's so easy, isn't it, to over function, to become over responsible.

And it's recognizing that is again, a choice, but we're not consciously always taking it.

But when we feel guilty about something that actually when we ask ourselves, is this something that I can do something about?

Is this, is this in my zone of power?

If the answer's no.

what would you say is another approach to that?

Or how do we move from that place of guilt?

it's hard, isn't it?

I think, what is in your zone of power is to look at it and go, is there anything I could have done?

Is there anything I can do?

And I think that is part of accepting.

So the, what we teach is you can either feel frustrated or now I'm gonna say guilty and frustrated.

Or you can accept it.

And the zone of power is very much the serenity prayer of grant me the, the courage to change, the stuff I can change and the serenity to accept the stuff I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Now, if you look up the meaning of serenity, I think I've done a podcast episode on this.

It's unclouded, that means unclouded acceptance.

So to practice unclouded acceptance, I go what about this thing that I'm so, I so care about is in my zone of power here?

You know, this trainee that I'm so worried that that's never getting stuff into me on time.

Like, what is in my zone of power here to do?

And once I've done all that, you know, it might be set boundaries.

Tell 'em there's a deadline, give them a warning three days before, say, by the way, I'm going away.

I will not mark it.

But you know, give them clear guidance.

Say, I can give you some help.

There's 10 minutes.

I've got a half an hour slot on this date if you want to come in, I can, you know, give them all the help that you can.

Set boundaries, set the parameters, let them know.

And then you accept it.

Unclouded acceptance is saying have I done everything in my zone of power?

And I think that's where we also fall down on this is we don't do enough that is in our zone of power to do something about it, mainly 'cause sometimes it just, it just takes a bit of courage and that's where your expertise comes in here, Sarah, which is the having difficult conversations.

'Cause I think most, most times when we abdicate responsibility for stuff we should actually carry or do something about, it's because it's a difficult conversation.

that's, that's interesting.

I was just thinking about, the fact that because it's difficult sometimes we don't want to do it.

And it works both ways.

So I just was gonna say the phrase, you know, just because I could do it doesn't mean I should.

That sometimes can be work, work either way, can't it?

We can often think, well, I could, I could fix that situation for the trainee.

I could fix that situation for the patient, or maybe try to, but that doesn't always mean we should.

But then the other way we can talk ourselves on us outta having those difficult conversations is, um, well, just 'cause I could have that difficult conversation doesn't mean I should, so we don't, and so I think, again, it's that wisdom to know the difference, isn't it?

The wisdom to know what we need to do in those, in those situations.

I think it's, I think the unclouded acceptance is so key, isn't it?

Recognizing is there anything, do I, what's the feeling I have?

Do I feel fearful, stressed, angry, defensive?

Is there, is there any reason for that?

Is there any grounding for that?

And what could I do differently?

What could I,?

And if the, honestly there's nothing, then that's part of it.

But I think the big part is we still want to have empathy even when we can't.

And I, I wonder if that's why it's so hard sometimes when we do set boundaries and someone isn't happy with our boundary or, I mean, we talk a lot about how difficult it is to break bad news as, as healthcare professionals.

It's often 'cause it goes against our values that you were talking about earlier, our values of wanting to improve things, wanting to make a positive difference.

And so often in those situations, it's completely outside our control, the illness that the person's experiencing, the, the bad news, we've got to break.

But we teach, we've learned probably a lot of us as healthcare professionals, those models where it's ac accepting that we can't make the news better for the person, but we can really empathize.

And I think empathy goes a really long way in these difficult conversations.

Um, empathy for ourselves and also empathy for the other person.

Yeah, I was listening to a, um, a mediator talking recently at a conference, and she does a lot of conflict resolution stuff like that.

And she said that in her experience, the thing that really moves, people stay completely stuck until one thing happens.

And the one thing that needs to happen for, for the, the conversation to move on is that the party needs to know that the other side understands their point of view.

They don't need to agree with it.

That they know, they know that they need to be totally heard and understood.

I was, that, that was really interesting to me.

It's like, oh yeah, absolutely.

'Cause you can, well, I know that I can cope with a difficult decision and one that I don't agree with.

As long as I know that they understand why I want the different, you know, that they've thought about my point of view and then, then you can move on.

There's a saying is that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

Oh, okay.

That's nice like

And I think sometimes, and I can speak for myself a bit, sometimes I kind of want to show how much I know, um, you know, well, this is why I can't do that.

Or this is why that situation is like it is.

But actually starting with, they don't care about that until they know how much I care.

So there's, it's interesting, so this leads on quite nicely.

There's been some questions in the, the Facebook group the You Are Not a Frog Facebook group.

So if anybody wants to talk to us through, um, stuff, join the Facebook group.

We'll answer questions.

I, I put a post in, 'cause I was thinking about this and I was asking people, when you feel powerless, what, what do you, what sort of things do you feel powerless about?

People have said when you get passed over, ignored or forgotten when you are ill or have a chronic illness or disability.

Someone else said I've reached out for support and said, got told basically tough, you still need to deal with it.

Or, well, everyone else is managing it, so it must be you.

Oh yeah, this, and this is, this goes to exactly what you just said.

When your boss outright says they hear you or they've heard you, but it feels like they disregarded what you've said anyway.

I think that's where further conversations need to happen.

So, there needs to be some psychological safety, I suppose, to be able to go back to the boss if in that situation and say, this is how I feel, is a bit the nonviolent communication.

So when you asked me for my thoughts or when you heard me say, this is what was important to me, and you then took this action or this, or you responded in this way, this is how I felt.

And I, I guess it's just being clear with the other person about the impact of that without blaming, but just stating.

And asking them, being really curious about, well, I'm just curious to know what was behind your decision to do that?

And I suppose it's bringing into, into the light, rather than sitting in a corner feeling those feelings of being dismissed or ignored, because those feelings won't go away by themselves.

And sometimes by bringing it into the light, we get a a different perspective.

They didn't realize we felt like that.

They didn't mean to do that.

Other times we might find out that there is some other intention behind that, and then that leads into that conflict resolution space.

Um, I think it's about sitting, yeah.

not sitting with those feelings and actually being

So, not sitting feeling unheard.

Actually challenging it, but, so you said there needs to be psychological safety, but you can't, that's not in your control.

So what if there isn't psychological safety?

Well, that's, that's the, that's a real challenge, isn't it?

And I think that's a bigger question.

So if there's not psychological safety in that relationship, then who else can support you?

And so it might be that you have that conversation still, but with somebody else there for example.

Um, or you might seek advice through other channels to have that.

But I think that, I think that's my first question is what's stopping you have that conversation?

And what's that tell you about, about you maybe, but it really about them or about the, the, the culture that's stopping that happen?

I've, I've worked with quite a lot of teams where there isn't psychological safety.

It's not safe to speak up, it's not safe to challenge, it's not safe to disagree.

And as leaders, we have to role model that.

And we have, that is within our control to, we can't make everyone make it safe, but it's within our control to really call it out, to influence, to change, to make sure that we put things in place so that, that, that, that shifts.

One thing that I would say, and we had a, an interesting discussion in one of our memberships is, is along the lines of, yeah, I've, I've reached out support, I've told them how I feel, and the conversation went really badly.

So I thought I was acting in my zone of power, but it, they didn't hear me.

It went really badly.

But when we talked a bit further about, um, how they had the conversation, we got into the whole going over the net thing.

And actually how they had had the conversation often, and this is often true for me, is that we think we've told them how we're feeling, but actually what we're doing is blaming the other person and saying, this is, this is, this is how you've made me feel, you've acted like this and I just need to tell you, and you're never gonna get a result, a good result like that.

You're just gonna people's backs up.

And one of the most helpful concepts I've ever come across is over the net thing

Do you wanna say a bit more about that, 'cause that might not be a concept people

uh, yes, I've, I'm sure we talked about it in this podcast before, but they teach this at Stanford University and the interpersonal communication course.

In any conversation, there's always three things going on.

There's some stuff that's in your head, like your intentions, your assumptions, the impact, what I'm saying has on you.

There's stuff in my head, like my intentions, my assumptions, the impact, all that sort of stuff.

Now, me and you, we can only ever know two of those three things.

What's going on for me and the behavior I can see.

You can only know what's going on for you.

The behavior you can see, and actually we are, we're recording this on Riverside, where literally there is, if I move my pen across, there's a barrier.

There's a barrier there, you can't see any further.

So that is a net.

That's a net.

Now if I, if I say something that um, assumes I know what's going in your head, I've gone over the net.

So if I say, Sarah, you've really been judging me for being off sick.

You've not been supporting me, right.

You've not been supporting me with my, with my illness.

That is over the net because I don't know for sure that you've not been supporting me.

Okay?

Now you might not have done the right things, you know?

So I could say you haven't done this thing, which would make me feel more supported.

Now, that's not over the net because that's, that's behavior.

Have you done it?

Haven't you?

Haven't you done it?

So it's like you could say, oh, you haven't called me to check how I'm doing, and I felt unsupported.

And that's different to saying, you haven't supported me.

Well, actually that and, and interestingly, they would also say, I felt unsupported.

Well, it's unsupported a feeling?

That's not feeling.

I felt sad.

I felt upset.

I felt disappointed.

I felt worried.

I felt anxious.

You know,

It's a really good point that isn't it, because often I think we don't always think of the emotional, what is the emotion I felt?

I felt unsupported actually.

Even that, that is a judgment that's gone over the net.

If I say to you, Sarah, I felt unsupported, that's way over the net.

That's saying you've been unsup supporting me.

Now I can say, Sarah, I felt sad because you didn't call me last week.

And then my thought, the story in my head was that you weren't, you weren't supporting, you didn't care.

That gives you a chance to go either go, oh no, you're right, I'm sorry, but it wasn't that I didn't care.

And then we're on the same page rather than I felt I felt, or you've been, um, inconsistent or inappropriate or you, yeah.

So just that stick to your side of the net, stick to what you feel and the behavior that you've seen.

So, Sarah, when you rostered me on for those 5:00 AM shifts, even though I've told you I'm, I'm really struggling to sleep at the moment, and I, and so I, I'm really struggling to wake up, that made me think that you hadn't understood what my, my, my, my issues are at the moment.

Can I just check that?

You know, that that made me feel frustrated because I thought I'd explain, but I maybe, you know, can I check?

And then you're like, oh, okay.

You are gonna be much less defensive, aren't you?

And then I'm gonna be heard a lot better.

So I guess when these, these questions about how can I be, can I, how can I force someone to hear me more?

Essentially, you can't, but you can, you can say stuff in a, in such a way that might help them hear you more, but you've still not got control.

that's a, that's maybe think about the psychological safety again.

So part of it is, yes, we can't make the other person make it safe for us, but we can make it safe for them.

And it's recognizing that we may trigger them into feeling unsafe if we come across as maybe, you know, legitimately.

But if we come across in any way attacking or judgmental, other people will have their response.

We talked earlier, don't we, about, you might feel angry, you might feel frustrated, you might feel, um, defensive.

And that's the challenge.

So one thing I often talk about in conflict resolution is if you notice the other person reacting in a way that's, um, you know, those negative ways, possibly they don't feel safe.

And of course we're not responsible for the other person's feelings, but in order to have a positive outcome or as you know, good a chance of a positive outcome, it's recognizing that and reading it.

And it goes exactly to what you're saying about not being over the net.

So I think there's something there, yes, being really descriptive with what we've noticed, owning our own feelings, and also do what's within our path to make it safe for them to stay in dialogue with us.

And I think we don't, we don't think enough about, yeah, how, how have I said it?

And we think we are just sharing and being open, but actually it's an attack on that person.

As soon as someone says, I feel unsupported, or I was listening to really good podcasts with Esther Perel.

Have you come across Esther Perel?

She's a French relationships counselor.

And, and she's just got the most beautiful way of talking.

And, um, she's talking about, yeah, in, in relationships often, you're so scared of asking for what you want that what you do is just criticize.

You know, you never, you never ask me about this.

When you're wanting to say, I want, I want you to ask me about my day.

You'll come out with, oh, you never ask me about my day.

When you actually, you know, so you make these accusations and criticisms when actually you're just trying to ask what you need.

So starting off with, I really need this, you know, and can I, can I just ask you what was going on with you?

And I think get curious, just like, oh, that's interesting.

If someone genuinely said to you like, everyone else is managing, or that, you know, check that out.

You could, Sarah, I, I've got this impression, or in my head is that maybe it feels like everybody else is managing except for me.

Is is that, does that story sometimes go round your head?

. Sarah: Where's the evidence for that?

Really?

Yeah.

So can I, can I ask what makes you, what makes you think that?

And, you know, just get really curious about that.

I mean, all this is really difficult, isn't it?

It is difficult, because it often feels like it shouldn't be this hard.

And, and it's often, it's hard because we haven't learned it in the way that helps it to feel more natural.

And so it's sometimes unlearning our natural sort of automatic response reactions, isn't it?

And then having to almost rewrite the program so that those more, I suppose, constructive reactions and responses become eventually the, the, the normal for us.

But it is hard to unlearn.

And it is hard to go against, I suppose that that inner a kind of recoil that then just means we say something we wish we hadn't.

I think it's really true about asking for what we need and be really clear about that.

Like I often talk about hinting and hoping and how that doesn't tend to work.

You know, and i, we can often do that, can't we?

Drop a hint and hope.

that the other person will pick that up and or read our minds and the other person doesn't have to say yes to when we ask, make a request for our needs.

But at least again, we've put it on the table, we've been really clear about it.

And if they're not able to, then it's a request, isn't it?

Not a demand,

and I felt really pissed off in the past when someone has said to me, well, you didn't do this.

You didn't know that.

I'm like, I didn't know you needed that.

I feel really let out.

Like, how, how dare you badge me as a really bad person, uh, as thoughtless whether when I didn't know?

I didn't know.

I'm not a mind reader.

You've been hinting, but the pins have been really going under my radar.

So maybe the learning from that, what's, what's the, what's the take home message from that?

Say what you need in a, in a non-judgmental way rather than like, I really need this.

Is that possible?

What's, what?

How does that land with you?

What are you thinking?

What you, what your, what your stories, you know, any, anything in your head that you're worried about or wondering about, you know, let's just share it.

Just tell me what you think.

I think that's so helpful.

So you said about, um, Esther Perel any other learning or any other resources that would be useful to share with listeners?

Yeah, I mean there's loads of stuff.

I was just thinking that, there's a couple of questions actually that, that came in that WhatsApp group also about zone of power.

So I just wanna fire them at you, Sarah.

Printer stops working.

It's like all it issues, isn't it?

What's in, you know, what, what are you doing at that point?

I guess you decide, is it urgent, don't you?

And then if it's urgent, you're gonna find a friend with a printer.

I don't know.

Is it, that's a.

I mean, IT is really annoying.

That's something that can feel really out your zone of power.

Yeah.

So that's, so that's, that's the sort of thing we've been talking about and I've got a few resources to share in a minutes.

Sarah, you've been out and about as well.

Have you been, what have you been noticing?

So I've been out and about doing some different talks to you, but the same sorts of themes in terms of leading without rescuing, I think, um, and also just with some of the more wider shapes, shapes that we teach.

I think I'm hearing quite a lot in the wellbeing space and particularly in the burnout space.

So, um, I sometimes joke that I have antibodies to the word resilience, but I mean that in terms of just the way that sometimes you talk about resilience victim blaming, how we can feel that, oh, you should just be more resilient.

And that's where I think my antibodies can come up.

But when we talk about what does wellbeing and resilience really mean, I think the whole sort of necessary self care, looking after ourselves is so important.

Just being reminded about that.

But also recognizing, and I know you've had Nick, um, Petrie on the podcast talking about burnout and the different levels of burnout, and I'd really recommend people listen to that because the reason we sometimes have that resistance to resilience is because if we're not just first degree burnout, we're second degree or

third degree burnout, the, the superficial things don't work and we want need that deeper shift, deeper change, which we haven't got time to maybe go into today.

But that episode covers that really well.

What people are took, sort of, I'm hearing people talk about is that burnout on repeat.

And I've certainly experienced that as myself, where I took some time off after being quite significantly burnt out and then went back into a very similar situation and wondered why I felt quite burnt out very quickly again.

And I've heard other people say the same, you know, nothing has really changed apart from perhaps some time to recover.

And so I was really reflecting on this this weekend.

I like to share.

A model that I sort of came up with in my mind the other day.

I was on a train and, IT was out of my zone of power so I couldn't use my laptop.

Um, so I thought, okay, I'll cut my notebook out and I'll just do some old fashioned kind of journaling and reflection.

And it was really interesting what came to mind.

So I was thinking, okay, if you're burnt out, that's gives you the picture of a fire.

How do you relight the fire within you in a way that's sustainable?

And so I was, I was sort of thinking, okay, how do you make a fire?

And I'm not, I'm not somebody who's particularly outdoorsy in terms of making a fire from some sticks and reflecting the sun on, on a piece of mirror or anything like that.

But I thought basically you would need to source some fuel.

You'd need to also place the fuel in a way that air can circulate, so there's like a structure to that and the space.

And then of course you need oxygen.

You need to be able to have good quality air.

There's no point lighting a fire in a, um, under a blanket.

Well, actually probably there is because it, the blanket would take, take, uh, light up, wouldn't it?

But you need a flow of oxygen and you need good quality air and then you need a spark.

So the way my mind works is often try and come up with some sort of mnemonic is to that I remember.

So that came up with SOS, so source of fuel for the first s, but also structure and space around the way the fuel is laid, then oxygen and then the second S spark.

So I was thinking, okay, so how does that apply, both for me and the people that I've been listening to?

So often we can resource some fuel when we've been burnt out.

We can, you know, take some recovery time, we can build up our energy store.

That's what the fuel's all about.

We can, um, create a bit more space in our life.

And that's certainly what I did do, you know, took some time off work, really tried to slow down to create some space, some thinking, built up my energy, physical energy, emotional energy.

So I really did that bit.

But then if we go back into an environment where there isn't much oxygen, there isn't much life, maybe that sense of life and oxygen is in a to, you know, it is not there because there's a bit of a toxic culture, or there's not supportive relationships or the air kind of gets sucked out of that environment.

We often talk about that.

It's just like it's sucking the life out of me.

I've heard people say that kind of phrase.

What do they mean by that?

And often it is a lack of positivity, a lack of communication, or.

unresolved conflict that deoxygenates the environment.

Or it's the, you know, I've gone back into environments where the demand is still very, very excessive.

So the fuel just burns up so quickly.

Or it's almost like there's no space between the fuel.

So yeah.

think about the fuel and the oxygen.

But then the spark to get back to having a fire within us, we need that spark.

What's that about?

Well, I think it's all about finding the joy.

What is it that you love doing?

What is it that brings you that sense of satisfaction, of being able to be your authentic self?

The person that you, you know, you know, this is you using your gifts, working in the areas of your life that we talked about, the zone of genius, don't we?

What, what is it that you really love that gives you that, that state of flow when you are working and it maybe doesn't feel like work?

So I think for some of us and I this was for me, I've gone back into environments where either I didn't have sufficient fuel or there wasn't sufficient oxygen in the environment or I didn't have a spark, so I maybe could do the work, but I just didn't love it and that.

was missing.

And they say the research sort of shows we need at least 20% of our job needs to be really fulfilling and bring us joy.

So it doesn't have to be the whole hundred percent, but as long as there's at least 20% of of your work that is stuff that you absolutely love, that's probably sufficient spark.

I love it.

I've got a couple of reflections, firstly that, that working in your zone of genius.

A couple of the talks I've been doing this week have been how to design a career you're gonna love, and that bit about zone of genius, a lot of medics, we just don't know.

We don't know what our zone of genius is like seeing patients.

Well, what about the seeing patients and when we got people to like sit down, actually work out what that might be, a lot of people said, actually, I love talking to patients.

I love talking to patients.

Someone's like, you might think me really weird, but I love those really difficult conversations with patients in the venerable times, you know, I feel I'm really good at that.

That's brilliant.

Another person said, I love had admin and everyone was like, really?

But no, this, she, she did, she said, I, I would do it for other people.

Like that is so brilliant.

There are some people that are really good and organizing and admin and God knows the world needs those sorts of people, but.

But we haven't actually worked it out.

A lot of us haven't done strength surveys.

We dunno what our values are.

We don't know what our real unique skills are, and that's, you know, that's why we are developing a, a mastermind very soon called Leapfrog.

So if anyone's interested in a career development mastermind, just just drop us an email, hello@youarenotafrog.com.

But I think first of all, most of us don't know what our zone of genius is.

Therefore we end up just doing this stuff that we are not particularly interested in.

We might be quite good at, but we don't love doing it.

And I think we'll do another episode on Z of Genius 'cause it's so important.

Secondly, the oxygen.

It, it's so true.

I've lost count at the amount of people I've spoken to, they've burn out, they've gone to exactly the same environment.

It's like being poison led poisoning and then going back to drinking the water.

Like, why do you think you're gonna be any better if nothing has changed?

If there's been absolutely no changes, that, that, that's madness, isn't it?

Like this madness is doing the same thing again and again or

And expecting it to be a different outcome.

But I think we think, oh, because again, we think because I was the problem.

That's, that's the false guilt, isn't it?

I was the problem.

It's because I ran out of energy.

That's why I burnt out.

So therefore, if I recharge, replenished my stores, I, I can cope with going back in there.

And that's where I have that resistance sometimes to some of the messages that's, that are out there.

Because it's not just about you replenishing your stores.

We know that burnout is a workplace phenomenon.

So therefore things, again, what's within our control is to look after ourselves, yes.

But.

One of the problems is going back into that environment where it's so deoxygenated.

And there are things we can do.

You know, we, if we, you know, we can breathe.

When I say metaphorically, there's about, you know, how do we bring some breath into a, um, a difficult situation?

Sometimes people have said to me, and this has really, you know, been lovely when people have said it, you're, you're like a breath of fresh air.

And I've sometimes thought, oh, I've heard that.

a few times.

What is it.

that I'm doing that people are giving me that feedback?

And maybe it is that I may be coming in with some different ideas, but maybe also some boundaries because I don't wanna get burnt out again.

And because I'm consciously setting those boundaries, that's maybe helped other people to feel that they can do that.

I don't, I dunno, it's interesting.

But just that I've had that feedback a little bit and it's made me think, oh, that again fits with the oxygen.

So we can, how can we be fresh air, air in our, in our sort of environments, but also what's not within our pound?

What do we not need to take responsibility for?

I think that's really important, particularly when it comes to workplace culture, there is a lot of stuff that you can't control, like the, the way the leadership team might be or whatever.

But there is some stuff we can control, like the relationships within your department, your practice, going for coffee with people, having lunch with people.

Just creating that atmosphere where people are chatting to each other like that is under your control.

'Cause you can always go and ask someone to have lunch with them or to have a cup of coffee and you make those small relationships and then encourages other people to, or you know, I, I was once working with a team, they organized a bake off once on Tuesday or something like that.

It was great.

I think it's so true because those are the things that you can bring that connection, you can bring that communication in, you can build that support.

But also some of those more difficult conversations.

And I've been in situations where I've had to, well, not, I've had to, I've chosen to call out some difficult behavior.

Um, I love the podcast with Chris Turner, the Civility Saves Lives.

And we've got him speaking, haven't we?

At the FrogFest?

Virtual.

Just a little plug for that.

There are little tickets.

Yeah, 28th of November, tickets are able to the end of October.

Oh no, actually there might not be tickets by the time people get this, but, um, there will be, you'll be able to get it on replay.

So yeah.

We'll let you know how to

I'll be having another one soon, so, um, that'd be good.

But I think just thinking about how we have to speak up sometimes in those situations to detoxify the air where there is unresolved conflict, you know, that.

isn't easy, but we've talked about that, about that so a little bit already.

Yeah.

And just a side note, Sarah, I've always found actually that when the atmosphere is very toxic, there's no oxygen, it's often 'cause there's stuff that's been unsaid, and that stale air.

Yeah.

And, and the, the, the, the pipe is blocked.

But as soon as you call something out, even if it's really difficult.

And I remember doing this once with someone who I noticed there was an atmosphere someone hadn't seen for a while and they'd been emailing me and I just not got back to them.

And.

Said, oh, and he, when I saw him, he was a bit funny with me.

I was like, I'm, I'm really, so I said, I'm, I'm feeling like actually I'm just gonna call it out.

I'm feeling really bad because I feel like I might have done something to upset you.

And he said, you have actually.

And he told me, I was like, oh, I'm so sorry.

I didn't mean, I forgot to answer.

And I'm, and honestly, it just felt like fresh air had come flooding into the room, even though I was really, actually, I was really upset.

I went to the toilets and cried for 10 minutes.

But then I came back and I was like, thank you for telling me.

That's so helpful now.

Thank you.

And it was just so much better.

So it's, it's that unsaid, nasty, under the surface stuff that that tends to,

Need to, clear the air.

Literally clear

it does clear the air.

I mean, there can be stuff on the surface, which is, which is equally bad.

But I think also there is something about the so of genius thing, and I think some people who do experience burnout and repeat.

That thing that we mentioned earlier about, well everyone else is managing.

Why can't I?

What's wrong with me?

Am I weak?

And often we blame ourselves for being weak, for being a bit acopic and stuff, when actually the problem isn't that we're weak and acopic, it's just we are not working in our zone of genius at all.

And it doesn't suit us.

But other people might be thriving in that environment 'cause it's their zone of genius and it suits them.

So we compare ourselves and we go, oh, what is wrong with me?

And I've suffered with that, looking around the people, looking at people that are thriving, thinking, I hate it here, but I'm just obviously weak or whatever.

The minute I've moved into an environment that actually suits me, I've absolutely thrived and flourished.

But back to the guilt thing, we then feel guilty.

We feel there's something wrong with me, and we take it and we blame ourselves.

That medic thing about blaming ourselves, it's my fault.

And actually no, it is just this particular fire isn't, isn't your fire, it doesn't work for you, works for them, doesn't work for you.

Nothing wrong with you.

In your zone of power is to then explore where is the right environment for you.

And there is nothing wrong with doing that.

And you haven't failed, you haven't cocktail, and you are not dumping on your colleagues.

Yes.

It's challenging this guiltish.

feeling.

I think we go back full circle here.

It is really challenging that, and asking.

Asking in self-awareness as well.

Really asking ourselves, you know, where do I feel like I thrive?

Not just survive, but where do I thrive?

And just because other people, like they get a lot of energy perhaps from doing certain things, where do I get my energy

And stop feeling guilt.

Let's just ditch the guilt of feeling that.

'cause I don't like doing that thing that the other person does.

It's fine.

You're a different person.

Isn't it great that we're all different?

Otherwise, frankly, nothing would get done.

Exactly.

No, that's, that's, that's the thing to celebrate, isn't it?

But I think maybe in terms of take home messages from the burnout, SOS, so I'd love to know what people think having heard that and how that fits for them.

It's looking at that, isn't it?

Looking at it and thinking, okay, what, what kind of fuel, if I'm gonna get really into the fire analogy, do I need for this situation?

What's the best fuel for that?

And what's the environment?

And, and just asking yourself, have you, have you really thought about all of those different aspects, the, the source of fuel, how you space it?

Have you thought about the oxygen that you are in and have you thought about what's the spark for you?

And all of those three things need to be there.

'cause a fire doesn't happen without one of those.

So we'd love to hear your comments about this episode.

So this episode, um, is going to go in our new, in our new membership, and we did just want to mention the, the membership because I was at another, uh, another conference and someone came up to me and really kindly gave me some lovely feedback about the podcast.

She really enjoyed it.

It was keeping her sane, which is just wonderful to hear.

And she said, oh.

I keep meaning to join you, one of your memberships or, or buy stuff.

I just haven't had the time to do it.

Um, and I was like, that's absolutely fine.

And what we've noticed, we did a, a listener survey quite recently, so thank you so much if you were one of those.

Loads and loads of people filled in, it was so helpful for us, um, that you love these resources, you just haven't got much time.

So we wanted to make these resources available to you on a bite-sized level, on a really bite-sized level, 'cause we know that most people don't have very much time.

There's time where you might want some more support, so you might want to do one of our, our longer courses.

But a lot of you at the moment, you just need this, these bite-sized things that you can listen to in the car that you can when you're walking the dog on your way home from work at the gym.

And so we are gonna start a You Are Not Frog membership called FrogXtra.

It's basically just under a tenner a month, and that includes VAT.

And for that you will get this extra bonus podcast once a month.

So there'll be one just like this, me and Sarah, possibly some guests as well, where you can submit questions, we'll talk about things.

We've noticed things that just come to us during the month.

We'll try stuff out, ideas out on you, and we'd love to hear your feedback.

Um, and you'll be able to put comments and stuff and interact with us under this.

You'll also get access to a, every month, a five, well, it's a less than five minute video tool that we send out.

We're already sending this out to lots of our, our, our members in some of our memberships.

It's a video, we call it a work well booster between three and five minutes of, of me or Sarah, or one of our Shapes trainers explaining a bite-sized concept really quickly.

Something that you can immediately reflect on and put into action.

Now, the great thing about these videos is that they also come with an activity that you can use with your team or on your own.

So there's a five minute activity with a team discussion, a 20 minute activity or a 40 minute activity, so you can just use that as training in, in groups or team meetings and things like that.

So we will provide the library that these, uh, wellbeing booster videos go in.

So these really bite-sized videos.

If you don't do anything, all you need to do is just listen to it or watch it, that'll take you five minutes once a month, and that'll be a new concept.

So who knows?

The SOS the SOS thing might come out in it.

Um, I don't think we've done one on over the net yet, so we'll do one on, on over the net.

So these will, these will all come out to you along with the library.

And also we are going to deliver the CPD reflective workbooks through the membership now.

So that we can just continue to produce really good content, to produce the, the Reflection workbook.

So as you know, we have been producing a worksheet for every single podcast episode that we do, so that you can fill them in and use them for your appraisal so you get free CPD essentially.

We, we want to continue doing that, but as you can imagine, editing, running this podcast, it does cost us some money.

So it would be really helpful for us just to have some supporters.

So the membership, you'll get these resources, but also be your way of supporting the podcast if it has been at all useful to you.

So you'll get the, the booster videos, um, shortly.

It is one a month you can listen to and you'll get an email with all these in it.

You'll get a longer video podcast episode with me and Sarah, just like this one, which will be in your membership section.

We'll also as well as the video bit, we'll put it in as an audio so you can just listen to it as a podcast.

You'll get your library of these wellbeing boosters, so you can use those with your team if you want to.

You'll also get discounts to all our FrogFest virtuals and our FrogFest lives as well.

So you'll get our, our special members discounts.

So we would love you to join us in the membership where you'll be able to put comments, you'll be able to interact with us.

You'll be able to listen through an app on your phone as well.

So it's really, it's really easy to do.

Is there anything extra about the membership's worth mentioning Sarah, that I haven't mentioned

No, I think it's really comprehensive.

I think just the messages, we'd love to hear from you because as you said about people filling in the survey, it's just great to know what's going on in your world so that we can then really take that and it helps us both with the live training and also, like you said, Rachel, the podcast content, the memberships, all of that.

'Cause we want to serve you.

That is the thing, isn't it?

We want to be able to be really relevant and really, um, applicable with what we're, what we're talking about.

And this is really our way of, of, of really trying to get a community together, of, of professionals who are choosing to thrive in work and life.

The podcast is gonna continue to be free.

You can get that on your, your normal podcast player, so you can get a weekly episode.

This is a bonus extra episode.

We've released this on the podcast feed so you can hear a bit about it and experience the format.

Um, but for the next one, it's gonna, um, be for members only.

So, uh, we would love to hear your questions and your thoughts and we will, we will aim to answer them.

So you can either just email your questions and we will discuss them.

Um, we will, we'll probably experiment with some sort of voice, voice note leaving as well at some point.

Um, and we would just be really grateful if you could support the, the podcast, um, which will just enable us to create even more resources for you guys.

So that's just a little bit about the membership, so just click on the link in the show notes to have a look at that.

Just before we finish, Sarah, I thought it'd be really nice in these, these extra podcast episodes, if there were some resources you come across recently that have been really helpful to you, we could quickly share those for people.

What have you, what have you come across that, that you would recommend?

Oh, I've a few things this last few weeks.

One is a Crucial Conversations book.

I read it a few years ago, so it's um, by Grenny and Patterson and I've just picked it up and read it again.

Really helpful for just remembering what's the story in our head and how to have those crucial conversations.

That's one thing.

I think I've also been listening to a podcast called Insight.

It's run by two psychologists and they're talking a lot around, difficult relationships in terms of past relationships.

It could be in childhood or, uh, just around emotional aspects and, and the topic of narcissism.

yeah, well, I just listened to an and an Esther Perel podcast on the Knowledge Project.

The Knowledge Project's one of my favorite podcasts ever.

Um, so I'll stick the link in the notes.

That's all about how to have better relationships.

Um, the, um, couple's guidance, uh, psychologist, counselor, don't quite know how you describe her, but she's, she's totally brilliant.

So we'll put that a link in the show notes.

And, um, I, I've just read a book actually that's really affected me and I absolutely loved it.

It's a, a, a book by Meg Mason called Sorrow and Bliss.

So it's the work of fiction.

It's about, what it's about, a family and love and marriage, but it's basically about somebody who has an a, a, a severe mental health issue.

She doesn't actually say what it isn't.

It's, it is weird 'cause it's a fictional mental health issue that's been made up, so you can't quite put it, I'm trying to work out what it was the whole time, but you can't quite put it in a box.

But I quite like that because you can't put her in a box, you can't badge her, but it's about the effect it has on the family.

But it's so beautifully written.

I, I just absolutely loved it.

So anyone's looking for a book to read.

Meg Mason, Sorrow and Bliss.

I really, I really enjoyed that.

So we'll put that in the show notes as well.

And if anybody else has got any, any resources to recommend, we'll also put a section in in the membership where you can recommend those or go into our Facebook group because the You Are Not a Frog Facebook group is gonna continue to be free, uh, for anybody to access as well.

So sarah, thank you so much.

I've really enjoyed this conversation today.

Thank you so much Rachel.

Wonderful.

Please get in touch with us.

Uh, youarenotafrog.com if you want to find out more about the membership, go to youarenotafrog.com/members, and uh, please join up, we would love to see you in there.

So thanks for listening everyone, and we'll see you next month for another one of these.

Wonderful.

Bye.