Summary

In this episode of the Zekely Podcast, host Zeke engages with guests Annette Deigh, Rob Gurtcheff, and Gina Arlen from Defense of Democracy, an organization dedicated to protecting public education in Pennsylvania. The conversation explores their motivations for advocacy, the goals of their organization, and the challenges posed by groups like Moms for Liberty. They discuss the importance of community involvement, mental health in schools, and the impact of federal funding cuts on education. The guests emphasize the need for grassroots activism and the significance of parental rights in education, while also highlighting the hope they find in the resilience of children and the power of collective action.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Defense of Democracy

01:36 Why DOD?

05:02 Director Arlen

07:39 Gen-Z Lingo

09:56 Deigh Social Work

11:57 Investigator Gurtcheff

13:54 Food Fight

16:28 DOD Coordination

18:24 DOD Achievements

19:22 Making Noise

21:24 Battlegrounds

23:42 Parental Rights

26:28 Get Involved With DOD

27:44 Hope

29:27 The Future

Defense of Democracy Pennsylvania Chapter: https://defenseofdemocracy.org/pa/

Defense of Democracy: https://defenseofdemocracy.org/

Full Video Episode Available On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheZekelyPodcast

Short Clips Can Be Found On TikTok: @drzeketayler/@thezekelypodcast and Instagram: @thezekelypodcast

www.thezekelypodcast.com

Hello, I'm Zeke and welcome to the Zekely podcast. Let's talk Pennsylvania. Today, I am honored to have three guests on the show who are all working with an organization called Defense of Democracy to ensure that public education is safe and accessible for everyone in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Their work involves monitoring school boards, defending educators and mobilizing community support for public education. Thank you so much for being here, Annette Deigh Robert Gurtcheff and Gina Arlen.

For years, I’ve knocked thousands of doors all over Pennsylvania and poured my heart and soul into supporting candidates and causes that make a difference—from local school board races to national elections. The personal is political, and I take every election in Pennsylvania personally.

Where the mainstream media has failed you, I will give you truth and independence. You’ll hear from Democratic leaders, candidates, and change-makers who are working to improve the health of the Commonwealth, and it won’t be boring as hell.

No matter where you are, I’ll meet you with hope and a plan to make your community better one day at a time. Welcome to the Zekely Podcast. Let’s talk Pennsylvania.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you for having us.

I'm so excited to have you

all on. It's

a big undertaking to have more than one guest on, but you are worth it because Defense of Democracy is doing important things in Pennsylvania. So I want to get to know all of you, what you're doing and play some games. You all ready? All right.

Sure.

each of you briefly share what personally motivated you to get involved with Defense of Democracy? Gina, why don't you go first?

I was looking for an anti-Moms for Liberty because Moms for Liberty first came to my attention during the pandemic when I was hearing about them. Initially they were complaining about masking in schools and I'm

Yeah.

you

What do these people not wash their hands after they use the bathroom either? I mean, come on. It sounded ridiculous to me.

I thought that they were just kind of ridiculous at first, but then I realized that they were moving on to book banning. And that started getting my, my dander up.

for those who don't know what Moms for Liberty is, it is a hate group. It's been classified as a hate group. It originated in Florida, but its second largest chapter is

And its goal is to take over school boards across the nation and employ discriminatory policies such as book banning and silencing teachers.

I'm

Yeah.

the daughter of two teachers, two very strict teachers growing up. They were very strict with me, but the one thing that they never, they monitored my TV, they monitored, you know, the one thing they always let sit was important was reading. They never put books out of reach. If I wanted a book.

It was accessible. My father even taught reading. So when I heard what Moms for Liberty was doing, I'm kind of looking for the anti-Moms for Liberty in defense of democracy. Was it?

That was it for you.

about

you, Rob?

Well, was the door to pandemic, of course, and the Moms for Liberty

I think when they had shifted because I think when they were anti-mask and anti-vax and openness to schools, that's how they came on my radar at first. But then when they moved to the book banning and taking over school boards, that's when I became concerned because,

two reasons. One, my father was a World War II vet. the other thing too is that when I served in Afghanistan,

I saw firsthand the results of religious extremism, whether it was blood stains and pockmarked walls on Kabul Stadium where they had public executions to a woman who had her face scarred with battery

that was why I don't want to go to that. I've seen the results and that terrifies me.

What about you Annette?

Again, you know, as my colleagues, it started like during the pandemic. And when they were talking about like the masking and in our school district, it went from as similarly from masking to like book ban. And I didn't know like who initially who Moms for Liberty were. But then it got to a point where they like papered our cars and they were like,

if you're against this woke indoctrination and they tried to get a teacher fired, kicked out of the school district for having a pride flag in her classroom. So me being, you know, a person with my big mouth that I am, I was like, oh no, this is not, you know, an act as I am, I'm not going for this. And organized a rally actually in my school district and that got everybody's dander up. And it got me more on their radar. And I was like, I need to learn more about who these moms for liberty are.

And like Gina had said, who's the

anti-mom's for liberty? Who can I stand with against these folks that are doing such harm?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it

seems like a common thread that all you were saying is that inhibiting or prohibiting the ability to have books is a really big deal because education is the doorway to lifting yourself up out of a lot of difficult situations, out of poverty, to get yourself into a good school, to get a good job. And I do think that Moms for Liberty specifically

targets that ability to take away books.

Well,

Pennsylvania director, can you just give an overview of what Defense of Democracy's main goals are in Pennsylvania?

okay, well, in Pennsylvania, and that can speak on a national level. Pennsylvania is interesting. I always like to call Pennsylvania, unlike states like Oklahoma and Florida, who have boogiemans like Ron DeSantis and Ryan Walters, who are causing trouble on a state level and instituting curriculum from the top down. Pennsylvania.

So as it's kind like a whack-a-mole, which I always look at as whack-a-mole. You you go over here in Columbia County, they're having problems. Okay, boom, you gotta whack that. And like, great, now Radner's got people who want to ban books. gotta do that. Bucks County keeps going, Bucks County goes this way, Bucks County goes that way. It's like boom, boom, boom, boom. I mean, fortunately, as long as Governor Shapiro is in place,

Mm-hmm.

You

you

you know, nothing horrible is going to happen on the state level.

efforts right now are local. And that's a good position to be in. would not like to

colleagues in Oklahoma and Florida are pulling their hair out right now. So comparatively speaking, we're in a better shape than they are.

You make a very good point that we have the luxury right now in Pennsylvania to just focus on local elections. You we are lucky that Governor Josh Shapiro is a Democrat and is protecting those rights and that we have a majority in the state house. If we would lose those things, we'd be in a lot bigger trouble like those other states. But there are elections coming up this November 4th and people are going to be electing members of their school

to make sure we don't get these Moms for Liberty endorsed members on the school board, we have to be paying attention because every election is the most important election.

I'd like to just say one more thing, just in regard

Absolutely.

Democrat, one of the things our founder Karen always says is, just in our nonpartisan nature, some of her best volunteers

Republicans. Republicans

Mm-hmm.

know someone who is LGBTQ. A Republican who knows someone is being marginalized or someone with a son on the spectrum.

In our organization,

Republicans who

education, and there are more of them than you think. Absolutely.

yeah, I think it's important

to specify that, you know, being a registered Republican, you can vote for whatever you want. But what we see is that Republican politicians who are in control and power are very much aligned with the Moms for Liberty stance. So yes, it's very important to know what you're fighting against. And it's not Republicans necessarily, but Republican politicians.

Hmm.

Many of them are.

Yes.

Well, let's play a little game because this is what we do on the Zekely podcast. All right, we're going to play Gen Z Lingo.

where I'm going to I'm going to give you a

and you're going to have to translate that for me.

Alright Annette, you're gonna go first. So here's the sentence. Climate change out here giving final boss vibes like we're in the last level and still no one's listening. What does that mean? Can you translate that for me? Give final boss vibes.

Final boss vibes?

Okay. First of all, I know I look younger than y'all, but I'm Gen X and my son is Gen Alpha. So I'm like, I don't know Gen Z, but final boss vibes is climate change. Let me see. So what I would say that sentence is saying is basically right.

Uh-huh. ⁓

Nobody's doing anything because climate change is like the final boss. Like what we we doing about it because we got to do something about they have the climate change is going to have the final say. We'll do something and step up.

right yeah it's ⁓

it's end stage right we're in the end stage challenge and people still aren't taking it seriously you were on the right path i final boss vibes i know it's great i love when my kids talk like this sometimes it's all

Final Boss Vibes. I was trying, y'all. I not heard it before.

rob here's this here's yours these ai deepfakes got the timeline spooked like can we not

.

how does that how does that translate for

Got AI fake news?

Yeah, that's right, AI-generated fake videos are flooding social media causing fear and confusion. You got it. Yeah, fake news. Timeline spookeds. All right, Gina, you have the last one. Caitlin Clark out here snatching ankles and ratings. She's mother, no notes.

I'm a little spooked.

catching ankles I thought grody to the max was weird. Oh gosh.

Thanks

This is, look, we have to connect with the demographic, okay? This is very important. Sure. ⁓

Can you just say it one more time then?

That's... That's... That's an

I was able

to kind of get in contact. This one's weird.

angle!

Kaylin Clark out here snatching ankles and ratings. She's mother, no notes.

someone is trying to get followers on a... I have no idea.

I'll save you. It basically means she's dominating both on the core and in viewership and she is iconic. There you go. You can take this now when you go to DOD meetings and you can connect more

She's very popular.

Mother no notes.

people you're talking to, okay? No cap. all flames. That's right.

No cap.

Annette, with your extensive background in social work and mental health, what concerns do you see emerging in public schools right now?

gosh, where do we start? There's so many. Well, I'll speak for like the mental health aspect because as a social worker who is in mental health, lot of speaking of Gen Z, right? And like I said, I have kids who are like, I guess, Gen Alpha and after Gen Alpha now, but there's a lot of bullying within the public schools and not just public schools, but within the school systems. There's a lot of bullying and there's a lot of mental health needs and

because we were talking about the pandemic earlier, that has spurred a lot more need. There already was a lot of need, and people were isolated so much. in regards to the public school system, all the more reason, the programming that people are trying to take away from the public schools, like the arts and the education and the assemblies on anti-bullying, we need more of that.

because I have a middle schooler and then I have an eight-year-old. I'm really concerned, and I have a lot of clients who are children and teens, and I'm really concerned that we're not paying enough attention. We're putting out so many different fires, Moms for Liberty, and everything going on, all these existential crises that we're losing focus of the different mental health needs of our youth in public schools.

Yeah, it makes

sense. also not to take away from what the federal government gives to public schools in Pennsylvania. I mean,

IEPs or individual education plans are so crucial in fighting bullying,

Yeah.

they really are. People don't realize that there are IEPs for people who have trouble sitting in class and who maybe stick out more than others. And that can be distracting to other students and other students might, you know, take up bullying because that annoys them. And that's not right.

Yes.

with me.

But IEPs allow for lateral movement and to have support systems so that nobody is distracted or harmed while they are at school. And so, I know that Defense of Democracy also focuses

Exactly.

Absolutely.

things like that as well, protecting IEPs and making sure that government funding does not get shut down.

Well, Robert, drawing on your investigative skills in government and corporate environments.

How does

gather information, track activities, and prepare responses to these challenges?

You know, have weekly meetings every Tuesday night, and it's a national meeting. So what happens is, I know for Pennsylvania, we had the national page on Facebook. That seemed to be one of the best ways to get news out there, because everybody from my kids, believe it or not, to my aunt who's in her 70s, they're all on Facebook. It's like the email of today.

Mm-hmm.

So we have the national page, Pennsylvania has a Pennsylvania page,

and we also have the veterans defending democracy page as well. And as soon as somebody finds some information out, know, they'll either send it to us and I'll look and I'll try to verify it to make sure I check the sources and everything before I send it out.

Mm-hmm.

OK.

And

we also have members. They may take videos of school board meetings, especially in Bucks County. I know that's pretty active. And then we'll share that and disseminate.

Yeah, that's a hotbed right now.

It sounds like it's a very grassroots organization. You're relying on a lot of people all around the Commonwealth giving you as much information as possible and then you send out other people for support wherever it's most needed.

Yes.

Yeah.

I always

like to joke, you know, whenever someone says, you know, we're a George Soros funded organization, our response is usually, we wish

Absolutely.

yeah, whenever,

whenever they invoke, you know, the anti-Semitic tropes of George Soros, you know that they just, have no leg to stand on at that point. Because I just say, well, you know, that's an anti-Semitic trope and kind of the boogeyman for the Republican Party. But you know what you do have in Pennsylvania? Jeffrey Yass, who is the wealthiest man in Pennsylvania, who owns the majority share of TikTok in America and who wants to privatize public education.

So, you know, that is an actual real-life billionaire who is causing a lot of problems, not just in Pennsylvania, but all over the

Well, I think it's time for another game.

and this one is called food fights. Okay.

Hahaha!

Because the Trump administration's proposed federal funding cuts will eliminate a lot of free school lunches for hungry students in Pennsylvania. And food insecurity is still a big problem in Pennsylvania, both in urban and rural areas.

So these are kind of like yes, no questions and Annette you'll go

So proposed cuts, these federal cuts, would increase or limit student access to nutritious meals. Limit or increase.

limit.

That is

The reason why would do that is because the cuts would require more paperwork for eligible families to receive free or reduced priced meals. And it would increase the percentage of people in poverty for those areas to qualify for food

Right now it's about 25%. So if it's above 25%, which actually you think it'd be lower than that, then it triggers free lunches for students. The federal government cuts would increase it to 60%. You would have to have over 60 % poverty level in an area to trigger that assistance. So we don't want that to happen. So that is correct. It would severely limit

right, Rob.

Proposed cuts on the federal level would increase or decrease the purchase of locally sourced foods for school meals. It would decrease, that's correct. The federal funding, such as the National School Lunch Program, or NSLP, plays a crucial role in enabling these programs and these benefits would potentially go away. And then the quality and the nutritional value of the meals would decrease because...

would decrease.

It would also decrease support for local farmers and economies because these local farmers are used sometimes by federal funding. So that is correct.

And Gina, proposed cuts to community eligibility provision or CEP would increase or decrease paperwork for school.

I'm sure we'd increase it.

it would definitely increase it. Yeah, cuts to CEP would require school districts to verify household incomes for all families approved for free or reduced price meals. And it would also limit their resources. So it could lead to teachers and staff spending more time on administrative tasks related to budget management and finding ways to compensate for the loss of funding. So these federal funds are extremely important. And I know that DOD would not approve any of that because they want

healthy children going to school and learning. How can you sit in class and learn if you're hungry all day long? Right? That's just not okay. And what people do on these school boards is they appropriate money in certain cases and they can accept or reject federal funding. And so it's important we put on these school boards.

Gina, how does DOD coordinate its efforts across different school districts in Pennsylvania? there common patterns that you're seeing that allow for kind of a unified approach?

That's a good question. can say,

the different chapters in Pennsylvania do run pretty independently because it's Pennsylvania. But we do have a central meeting place in the Facebook group. And if you have a chapter in your state and you're all signed up in our database,

We have lots of resources to help keep you on message. And we have speeches, we have literature, have email templates, all sorts of things that can help you stay on message. We also have

our weekly meetings, weekly Zoom calls, we have individual state breakout sessions. And that's when individual state members can

strategize together and we can all talk about what's going on in our own little pockets of the state. Again, a lot of trouble is coming in in the middle of the state, but on the two ends, on either side,

pretty nasty as

of course, the Facebook page is also a central hub, like a clearinghouse of

That's great. I'm glad that there's a way to share that information between school districts and kind of have everyone on the same page, the same messaging. ⁓

Yeah, we also make it available

for people, especially we try and encourage the veterans

Yes.

defending democracy that if somebody's speaking to a school board and they're nervous or they're afraid of repercussions, we're willing to send somebody or multiple people out just to support them. Wear the t-shirt like I'm wearing now so they know that they're being supported.

And so even if we are not allowed to speak, we'll sit like in the audience, you know, and cheer you on as much as we can, or you'll know that you're not there alone. absolutely, Robert had a good point. Yeah.

That's That's good to know because these Moms for Liberty groups, they have plenty

of people who volunteer to go around and show up at these school board meetings and just wreak havoc. So it's good to know that you have that support system there.

they have their children's quality.

Woo-hoo.

Rob, what are some of DOD's most significant successes in Pennsylvania, big or small, that demonstrate the positive impact of your work?

Definitely the Central Bucks School District. then the person who went from the Central Bucks School District and they went to another school district, neighboring one in like Warrington or Warminster,

the one who got the $750,000. He just got a appointed to that, it would have gone under the radar had Defense of Democracy and others not shared the information.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

and let people realize what this person was about and there was an opposition because school board meetings are in an ideal world, they're rather boring, you know, or we hope so. so this happened and people showed up and voiced their concerns.

Did you work with Jane Kramer? Does that ring a bell?

Yes.

yeah, Karen and her work together and she's amazing.

She's amazing. She was a guest on the podcast and she is great. I know very instrumental with social media and trying to get the word about what was happening and it's great that you collaborated together.

cool.

Yes.

what can people do, solo or together, to make the most noise about potential issues in their community when it comes to protecting their school boards?

⁓

Show up.

Yeah, show up. I think we're all saying the same thing. Show up.

Show up.

the more we show up, you know, we have to get our voices heard because yes, we can do a lot, you know, individuals like the ripple effect, but we just have to keep showing up because like you saying, Zeke.

You like when we, think you and I met like at a protest, Your mom's for Liberty protest with my son. Yes, yes, yes. We had some choice words for moms for

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

We recently had a thank-a-thon.

know, teachers have been getting so much guff lately from the Monford-Louis crowd and all that.

Yes!

And it's amazing, even me getting up there, my little thank-a-thon, how many teachers came up to me afterwards and said, you don't know how much that meant to us. So if you're just one person doing one small thing, it matters.

Yeah. ⁓

Yeah, think

it does make a difference. like you said, politics, good politics is boring, right? We like good, boring politics at the local, state, and national levels. And I can understand people maybe don't want to take time out of their evenings and go sit in a school board meeting, because a lot of what they talk about is pretty benign, right? Approving various budget cuts or budget approvals or, you know,

does make a difference.

budgets.

talking about their next superintendent or a new policy or initiative or research they're doing to make things better, people would rather go out to dinner or spend time with their families. But in that milieu, in that space, if you don't have good people that you can trust, that's where the damage happens. And so I agree with you that simply showing up and being present is a check to their power. It's saying, I'm paying attention to what you're doing. And if you're not doing what we elected you to do, then you're going to hear about

Hmm.

You're showing up at a school board meeting and speaking out in favor

Yeah.

or against anti-Semitism that may be an issue at your school at that moment. There might be a kid there that's watching. And if you're a parent, your kids are

Mm-hmm. Right.

Yeah at the end of the day it's all about the kids.

how do you see the battles, we kind of alluded to this before, over public education connecting to broader efforts to protect or undermine democratic institutions in Pennsylvania? Anyone can take that one.

Well, definitely think that when you have an uneducated populace, they're much more easily malleable. It's easier to manipulate them. We see that with AI and influencer content. And somebody like Joe Rogan gets on there, says something to a bunch of listeners.

And he's not a journalist. He's not a

And yet here he is telling these tales as truth. And then maybe a couple months later, he finds out it's not real and he's just like, whoa, how about that? That's crazy. And then he moves on to the next

Absolutely, And I would say, it's all

They're saying there's a reason why they're trying to defund public schools.

and take the resources away and take the funds away and put them in a charter schools and put them in a private schools. Because then, know, again, you have more of an uneducated populace like Rob said, and then there's more of like the haves and the have nots. The gap just gets wider and wider and wider, which is unfortunately what a lot of people want.

⁓

Yeah.

We have to have a strategy.

a parent of a son on the spectrum,

it makes me shudder to think what could happen, you know, with privatization of the whole, or the defunding of the special needs. One of the topics that did come up in our school board meeting the last two sessions was the intermediate unit in Chester County is worried about losing funding. Those are people who taught my son how to drive.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm.

They taught my son how to have a driver's license. again, with special needs, know, privatization is the key. Well, no, it's not. I always used to joke when they talk about parents' rights. You know how we have tons of rights. Whenever I had an IEP meeting at my school, we would have an inch thick

of our rights and responsibilities. My husband and I always get a joke that we can wallpaper our wall, with the parents rights if we disagree with something, we could appeal, have a process. And sometimes we did. It wasn't always perfect. We had a process that we stay with our son. Private school, sorry. One day they call you in, we can no longer meet his needs, have a nice life.

Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, they're all.

Right.

abide by any of that.

Well, you were kind of alluding to this earlier, Gina, and I liked how you were talking about it, so I'm just going to bring it back again, okay? So the term parental rights is often used a lot, okay? So how does DOD view genuine parental rights in education, and how does it differ from the interpretation often put forth by groups like Moms for Liberal

Amen.

parental rights, parents have the absolute right to guide their children in their religious upbringing, in their educational upbringing. If they don't like a book that is assigned, they have the right to go in and say, I do not want my child participating in this. I always say, you know, the old, old sex education permission slip. You don't want your child learning the sex ed curriculum, you check.

No. know, don't want, heck, you didn't want your kid taking acetaminophen. You check no. You know, you don't want your kid being photographed. Check no. Right? Those are all parental rights and that is absolutely fine. This is your right. You do not have the right to make that decision for everybody else in the district. Your rights end where my nose begins, as the saying goes. And that's

.

the position that the defense of democracy takes. support parental rights. We support parents making decisions for their own children. But when you ban a book, you remove a book from the library.

take a pride flag out, you harass a teacher, when

Okay.

a curriculum, when you take DEI efforts, you are affecting everyone in the district, not just your child.

I like how you bring up all the rights that these parents have. I think it's really interesting

how these organizations like Moms for Liberty distill down rights to a couple issues that are extremely important to them, right? That kind of revolve around these bigoted aspects, but they have so many rights. I I loved your example about Tylenol. If you don't want your kid to take Tylenol, you just check a box. And if the school does give your kid Tylenol...

Yep.

and you checked off that box, you have recourse, right? You can do something about that that will get the school in trouble, okay? But what these organizations wanna do is they wanna get everyone in trouble academically. And that is the major difference I feel.

Mm-hmm.

You know what's interesting is that a lot of these states push these laws where you're mandated to post the Ten Commandments in every classroom. But they never mandate that you post the Bill of Rights in every classroom.

Right,

It's

ridiculous. mean, separation of church and state should mean something, right? I mean, there are all religion in this country and there are no religions in this country and they all should be respected equally. I mean, I can't imagine how upset someone would be to walk into a school where the Ten Commandments are there, who maybe just is agnostic or an atheist. And we have to respect that. This is the United States of America. We have to respect everyone or we respect no one.

institution.

We could go as-

Exactly.

Well, how can people best learn more

Yes.

about defense of democracy and get involved specifically in Pennsylvania?

go to our website, register, and come to a Zoom meeting.

it.

your website

called? Just so everyone can hear it or see it.

DefenceofDemocracy.org.

Stoes.

DefenseofDemocracy.org. I've, so I've been to the website. It's a great website. And you have all the chapters there. So you can go to your individual states and your picture is actually there. Gina, I found you on

Yes.

Thanks.

it's a great resource for people who want to get more involved and there's donation available and actually, Defensive Democracy has a podcast as well. So you can listen to what is going on, not in just Pennsylvania, but all across the country. So I'll be sure to promote your website.

Yes. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

I'll just make a housekeeping thing. When you sign up, you will be asked to take a short training session. Yeah, short orientation aren't

Mm-hmm

orientation.

And is it easy to find you on Facebook as well?

You're welcome, Audrey.

Absolutely.

Okay, just search Defense of Democracy and it'll be there on Facebook.

Yeah. ⁓

And

every state has a Facebook page. So we have our national Facebook page and then we have our

Yeah.

state.

Perfect.

out there.

I will be sure to

promote that for you because I would like to have more people volunteer for this important

What gives you hope?

Wow, that hit me right in the heart. What gives me hope, I'm going to go back to the children. Definitely the children. have again two myself and knowing that, you know, the resilience of children, you know, and the resilience of people, like we're not taking this lying down.

But they really do give me hope because I love it when children speak up. I was told children are to be seen and not heard. I'm like, tell my kids, no, you can definitely speak up. Do it with respect. But definitely you can please speak up because we need to hear the voices. We need to hear young people. The children are speaking up. They are literally the future. And that's what gives me hope.

What about you,

Rob? What gives you hope?

I'm afraid this is going to be unanimous. It's the kids. It totally

Some of them had walkouts. mean, it's up in Massachusetts when I took that kid that was showing up for lacrosse practice, that school empty that they walked out in protest.

did that in out on the main line somewhere too. over, I think it was books being taken out of the libraries or

cave. That's the key. These, the kids are all

Mm-hmm. ⁓

Well, I have to third that motion. Just to see the way that my son was treated.

is again, instead of being warehoused, he had a place in

They accepted him. They had a place for him. You'd see people walking together of all races, all colors, creeds, religions. They'd be walking together, his circle of friends, all different groups of

You have to be taught to hate. That's what

Yeah.

Yeah,

Yeah. So that and and every time someone shows up at a protest or sometimes someone shows a little act of defiance, that gives me hope.

Hatred can be educated into you and it can be educated out. Absolutely.

gives me hope too.

And my last question Annette, what plans do you have to get yourself through these next few years?

Well, I like to, as a therapist, you know, I'm really big on self care. And a lot of my clients are really, they're going through it, you know, it's kind like the pandemic, we're going through it with people. So I'm going through it with my clients.

and so I tell some of my clients, well, like, your therapist has a therapist. And I really do think if everybody in the world had a therapist, and I'm not just saying it because I'm there, it would be like a much different world because we not.

You

I agree.

All of us, you have to learn. I had to learn also how to cope with trauma and try to fill, put in the resiliency. So what's gonna get me through these next few years, well, in addition to helping to continue to raise my kids to be good, productive, kind citizens, is continuing to try to pour into myself as well and do the self-care and see my therapist and go to my happy place, which is the beach.

Do things that fill me up while I'm doing things like being active with Defensive Democracy and serving my clients and my children, my family, my various communities. Definitely we gotta fill up our cups. So that's what I plan to do.

self-care. Self-care is important.

going to,

you know, if somebody needs help, if I can, then I must. That's been.

you know, my own personal credo for a while now. Somebody needs me, I'm there for them. It's easy

put somebody

now you're getting it, you get a dose of your own medicine. But the fact is, they need help and their kids need help. And that's what I'm going to do. That's how throw it. And maybe play some golf.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Stay busy. Yeah.

Good.

What about you, Gina?

Well, there's an old, I guess, I think it's a Hebrew proverb that I like to live by. It's, are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you to abandon it, which is you don't have to, you don't like, and I also go back to the movie Hacksaw Ridge, where the guy, he was the conscientious objector who went in as a medic. And he would say

Yes.

middle of the war,

Let me save just one more. God help me save one more. And he ended up saving like 75 men. But the thing is just one thing. You don't have to do it all, but

Yeah.

one thing. Don't just sit and stew. Go out and do something.

Yeah, one thing every day.

I agree. That is all those are all great things to do to get you through these next few years. Well, Annette, Rob, Gina, I think I speak for Annette's son who once said, fuck moms for liberty. And and I it's it's true, you know, and and we need we need people like you to to get out there and support these school boards and support families and children, these school districts and to just be that

You

watchful eye, you know, because 90 % of people don't pay attention to the local politics, even though 90 % of their lives are affected by local

and I hope that everyone's paying attention on November 4th and if you don't know who is running please please make sure to look up who is running for your school boards this November 4th.

Well, thank you so much for joining me here on the Zekely Podcast. Stay hopeful and get involved and

until next time, let's keep building a stronger Pennsylvania together.