Episode Overview

The legal sector has long been considered a demanding and often inflexible career path, particularly for parents. But is the tide turning? In this episode, we unpack the evolution of family-friendly policies in the legal profession. From the increasing adoption of flexible work arrangements to gender-neutral parental leave, the sector is seeing promising shifts—but challenges remain.

Key Topics Covered

• The impact of remote work, AI, and evolving tech on flexibility in the legal profession.
• A look at gender disparities in leadership and pay across the sector.
• Personal stories of resilience and advocacy from legal professionals who balance family and career.
• Insights into how leadership and culture are shaping more inclusive workplaces.

Special Guests

• Alison Deitz, Managing Partner, Norton Rose Fulbright, shares her groundbreaking journey as one of the first partners to navigate parental leave and flexible work arrangements.
• Silje Andersen-Cooke, Lawyer and Director at the Australian Multiple Birth Association, offers a personal perspective on managing a demanding career with four young children.
• Emma Walsh, Founder of Parents At Work and Family Friendly Workplaces, explores the role of leadership in driving culture change and shares her vision for a family-friendly legal sector.

Fast Facts

• Women make up over 55% of solicitors in Australia but represent just 35% of partners in the top 50 firms.
• 34 out of 69 legal workplaces report a gender pay gap larger than the national average.
• Women are significantly underrepresented at the bar, with only 23% of barristers in NSW.

Tune In To Learn:

• How leading firms are transforming their policies to support family life.
• The role of AI in creating efficiency and flexibility for legal professionals.
• Why leadership and culture are critical in enabling family-friendly workplaces.

This Family Friendly Workplaces

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podcast is produced on Gadigal Land

by Parents at Work and Women's Agenda.

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We pay our respects

to the traditional owners

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of the land where we're recording

and the elders past, present and emerging.

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This is a special edition of the podcast,

delving into the legal sector and asking

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just how much has changed

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when it comes to seeing legal employees

becoming more family friendly.

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We'll take you through

some of the latest stats

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and know and speak

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with a number of different people

at the forefront of creating change.

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Thanks for listening.

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For decades

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now, women have outnumbered

men in law schools across the country.

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But how many of them are actually staying

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long term and climbing up the ranks

to become law firm partners?

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Back in 2015 one analysis by Melbourne

University's Law School

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found that more women

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than men were leaving the industry

within five years of starting out

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It also revealed that the number of women

practicing

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as lawyers dropped by around 75%

once they reach the ages of 35 to 55.

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And of those that continued

only a few became partners with women

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making up just 17% of equity

partnerships in Australia at the time.

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Today, data shows that women make up

more than 55% of solicitors in Australia.

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And a recent survey by the Australian

Financial Review found that women make up

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now 40% of partnerships of 13

of the biggest law firms in Australia.

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When it comes to the top 50 firms, just

over 35% of the partner cohort are women.

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So while there is some way to go,

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the law industry,

a place that has traditionally been a male

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dominated space, it's averse to change,

may be going through a transformation.

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While large law firms have long fed

on offering compelling packages

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around paid parental

leave for primary carers,

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this is now shifting

for at least some firms

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to removing the primary

and secondary labor care labels

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and making the leave more accessible

for new dads.

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Law firms have also been shifting

to providing more remote work

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options, hybrid work options, as well

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as more opportunities for team members

to manage their caring responsibilities.

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But when they do occur,

they are typically only

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as good as the latest

in such firms role modeling,

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demonstrating and supporting those

with caring responsibilities.

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My name is Angela Pressley

and I'm the co-founder

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and publisher of Women's Agenda.

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And a long time ago,

I was once a legal journalist, regularly

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covering the legal sector.

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That was at a time

when remote working was unheard of

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for people, working law firms

and the idea of hybrid wakes.

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I mean, I didn't even think that existed

There were few women reaching partnerships

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and family friendly policies

typically centered around one thing,

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and that was offering

a few weeks of maternity leave to women

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and then wishing them the best once

they returned, if indeed they did return.

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I'm pleased to see that much has changed,

but not enough.

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Let's dove into these conversations

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Alison Dietz is someone who has seen

and experienced firsthand

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how much legal employers have changed

for those with caring responsibilities.

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Now, the managing partner of global

law firm, not Maurice Fulbright,

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she was one of the first partners

in the firm

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to take parental leave now

almost 20 years ago.

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She was also one of the first to return

while still breastfeeding

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and recalls those early days

when she spent so much time using a manual

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pump to express milk

during the work day that she suffered.

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RSI in her right hand.

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Ever since,

she has seen some dramatic shifts in how

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we work, including the opportunities

that Blackberries and later

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iPhones provided for supporting clients

outside of the office.

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I didn't even have an iPhone

in those days, but I had a device,

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and I remember that device was

was a game changer because it allowed me

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to be out of the office

but still in contact.

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So I think technology has been

in the Bible and very much an enabler

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over the last what particularly post-COVID

but but even before that.

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So the ability to have offline technology,

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the ability to have amplified

things and zoom it is a game changer.

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And as we've changed,

our clients have changed as well.

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So it isn't just

that law as an industry has changed.

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Our clients have changed.

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We've also seen more women,

I think, who work flexibly

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taking positions as general counsel,

in-house counsel in our clients.

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And I think so that that relationship

we have with our clients.

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It's very important for our clients.

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I to to see us being able

to work in a flexible way

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and to promote equally men and women

through our leadership pipeline.

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But they're also working

in a flexible way.

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So allowing us to sort of work in the

same way that our clients are working

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and I think that's always been important

to us as a profession.

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So we're we're there to provide

and serve the needs of that client.

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So we need to respond

to what our clients want and expect,

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but we also need to mirror them

to a large extent.

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And I think that's what's been happening

over the last few years.

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Alison was appointed

to head up the law firm in Australia

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just as the pandemic hit,

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members in the country

working from home within a week.

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Later, in 20, 21, Norton Rose Fulbright

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became the first law firm

certified as family friendly in Australia,

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and it has since been evolving

its policies to improve what it offers

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for those law firms who are leading this

change A core part of the transformation

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is in workplace culture and policies

that acknowledge and support women

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to continue thriving in their profession,

no matter what life stage they're at.

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The legal profession was once notoriously

inflexible, pushing many talented women

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out of the industry

once they started having families.

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But as more and more women

step in to senior roles in the sector,

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they're changing how these practices

function.

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Even opening up the way for men

to have more freedom and flexibility

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in balancing work commitments

with their own parenting obligations.

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I think that's why COVID changed

some of the perceptions

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that both employers had,

but also employees have,

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because it isn't just about

how much paid parental leave.

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It is about the whole person,

the whole family,

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what that journey looks like

and making sure that there is flexibility.

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And I think law firms,

like like everybody, we've all responded

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in a flexible way to COVID.

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I think it's changed

some of those traditional

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perhaps traditional ways of working.

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You don't always have to be in the office.

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You can work remotely.

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We're all on teams or Zoom or

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some form of video communicate

that does make it easier.

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It does make it easier to be able to work

from home on a more regular basis,

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whether that's in a formal sense

or an informal sense.

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And I think we all do that, and that's

the change that COVID made Psycho

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that I think it accelerated changes

that were already happening in orphans.

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I think we're seeing a new generation come

through who have different expectations.

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It's much more mainstream.

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I have a whole raft of partners

now who work flexibly

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I have a raft of partners

who've had children.

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They're managing children

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and managing all these things,

and it has become much more mainstream.

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We certainly saw our male employees

who were having to take over

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some of the family responsibilities

that maybe they hadn't done before.

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So, for example, we've recently run

a series of workshops with

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Ron Collins of Dad

to focus on the journey for fathers,

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and that's been really helpful

because we've been able to promote

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the many opportunities for dads

to utilize that gender neutral

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and actually now are quite generous

parental provisions.

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They've lost that flexibility

and we do know that once

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males are taking up opportunities

like parental leave

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and part

time work at the same rate as women

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it becomes a mainstream issue and I think

everybody benefits that from it.

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And I think that's that evolution

we've seen over the last couple of years.

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Other important elements like leave

for domestic violence or reproductive

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help, help

keep the door open for women in law firms

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to sustain their careers

and achieve long term success.

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No matter what comes up in their lives.

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We have diversity surveys

that we send out on a regular basis,

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and that allows us to get information

to enable us to respond

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to the needs of our employees

and also our partners.

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So all those people who work with us,

what is it that they want?

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For example,

we've launched our Watch Plus series

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that focuses on education and awareness

sessions to support people with

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different personal life challenges

such as navigating

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elderly care for loved ones,

neurodiversity for individuals and family

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members,

pregnancy loss, fertility, menopause,

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So really, we're trying

to look at our employees holistically

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and what it is they need to enable them

to cope with life's challenges.

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As well as the challenges that arise

in the workplace and how can we assist.

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So we are really trying to help our staff

with caring support

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for their families, personal support,

and we found that's been super helpful.

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What do they need?

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We want to be able to respond.

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We can't respond to everything

people ask for but it has allowed us to,

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I think, a debt and focus

on those areas of need.

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The pioneering leadership of trailblazing

law firm partners like Alison

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have been helping to transform

the legal profession for many women.

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That's including for women

like Silje Andersen–Cooke,

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director of the Australian Multiple Birth

Association.

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When Silje became pregnant

for the second time, she'd already taken

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a break from her career in law.

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But there was a big surprise to come.

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We were just going in

for like a routine ultrasound.

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We were trying to have a second baby,

so that wasn't a surprise.

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I walked in with this confidence of,

oh, know,

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second baby,

you know, thinking of all the ways

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I was going to do it differently

and being more confident parent, I guess.

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And that was totally blown up.

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Them walked out of there.

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They were like,

There's three there and I was so shocked.

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I think everything goes runs

through your mind at that point.

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You're sort of balancing anxious feelings

of how's my body going to carry

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three babies while also balancing

We need a new car.

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Do we need to move house?

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Like, what kind of pram do you use

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I don't know anybody who's had triplets

ever that I've run in my family.

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Such an unfamiliar, unusual experience

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for me, but also thinking, you know,

since obviously very high risk pregnancy.

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So it's a really confronting experience.

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And definitely

one of one of those thoughts is,

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is this going to torpedo

my whole career as well?

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I really enjoyed work.

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I love being a lawyer.

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It's such a big part of my identity.

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And who I am as a person.

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Silje found a way to juggle four children

and her family with a career in law and

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running a support organization for parents

having multiple births at one time.

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Her employer,

Maddox, has played an important role,

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empowering her to follow all her passions

while raising kids.

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Being a disputes in litigation, lawyer

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and being a parent of triplets

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and a singleton is a challenge.

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From the very beginning, I knew it was

what I was most interested in.

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I really loved the sort of thrill of court

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work and trying to solve problems

and and disputes.

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So I knew it was something

that I had a passion for, and I just

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didn't ever at any point

want to compromise on that.

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I think that would be really taking away

from who I am

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and what I saw for my career.

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Really fortunate

to have this position at Maddocks.

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I think law firms have really come

a long way.

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Well, most law firms have come a long way

in terms of culture and tradition.

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They I would agree that

that was a fear of mine as well, that

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the litigation side of things is usually

the most inflexible area of law.

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But firstly, having such a supportive team

and manager is so critical.

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I have a really amazing manager

at Maddocks she's a mum of twins herself.

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So when she found out I had triplets,

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that was a bit of a synergy

between us as well.

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And they also have really supportive,

flexible work policies for parents.

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They value carers

and the role that they play in society.

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I think that's evident by their forward

thinking, parental leave policies

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and returning to work after parental leave

policies.

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It's so important to acknowledge

that being a parent

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is such a valuable role

as much as your role at work.

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I think when law firms acknowledge that,

it makes you feel like

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you can bring your whole self to work,

you can be a parent,

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you can work from home one day

if your kid's sick, or

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there are days

where it's going to be inflexible

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because you have a court deadline

or you have to be somewhere.

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But when you don't, trying to be flexible

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and meeting people where they are,

I think that's been my experience

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and it really comes down to your manager

and the team that you work with.

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I like to be in the office

as much as possible when I can,

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but then, you know, if you need to work

from home one day, I have the flexibility

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to work from home,

but I enjoy being able to just go out

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for lunch with colleagues

and kind of be there how to describe it.

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But just feel like a human

somedays is just get out there.

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Because especially after you've had

I work four days, so Tuesday a Friday,

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and if you usually had three days

just with the kids full on

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and yeah, just feeling like an adult again

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and going into the office

getting dressed up, it's just nice really.

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Refreshing

and getting to have lunch and a coffee.

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And so yeah, I prefer going to the office

that yeah, I really respect that.

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I have that flexibility

to be out of work from home if I need to.

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Soldier says a big part

of what law firms like Maddocks get right

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is that they go beyond well-written

workplace policies to really supporting

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parents and staff on the ground.

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Emma Walsh, founder of Parents

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at Work and Family Friendly Practices

and a mother of multiples herself

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now with eight year old twins, says it

legal workplaces are increasingly

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becoming more family friendly,

but there is still work to do.

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The younger generation of employees

coming through are expecting

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greater family friendly provisions

than the generation before them.

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And this still.

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Is a competitive war.

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For talent on the best candidates.

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And there's just

less of them than they were.

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I mean,

the reality is we're having less babies.

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So every year, unless we suddenly have

a big migration intake,

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there are less candidates that employers

will be able to choose from.

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The legal sector has traditionally

been challenged by the billable hour,

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and the idea that output

is measured on time rather than outcomes.

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Some firms have moved beyond this, moving

to fixed base pricing and other models.

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But face time

still remains a critical metric

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and one that can creep into all hours,

especially in certain practices

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like litigation.

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And despite more options

to work remotely since COVID and pursue

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hybrid workweeks and other things,

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the long hours remains an issue

for those with care and responsibilities.

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I mean, at the end of the day,

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doesn't necessarily matter if those long

hours are happening in an office somewhere

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or if they're happening at home.

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It's still creeping

into all areas of your life.

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We still don't have boundaries around

when work starts and stops,

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then in actual fact, more flexibility,

more ability to work from home

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is more likely to blend

and probably take up more time

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than an employee might have given before.

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So there's certainly is that challenge

that comes with flexibility.

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But broadly speaking, you're right,

there has been a lot of gains

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made from flexible work with COVID,

particularly in the legal sector.

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You know,

suddenly there was court available online.

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So many things.

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Were. Talked about.

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This would never happen

in the legal industry.

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This could never be done remotely.

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I think Maddocks is doing

a really great job of just bringing

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you along the journey

and checking in with you

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and having forward

thinking parental leave policies.

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I think one thing which is reported on

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is that 87% of businesses in Australia

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still distinguish

between primary and secondary carers.

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This is an issue.

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The Government's now

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abolished the definitions

between primary and secondary carers.

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I think more businesses should

get on board with that Mattocks has.

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We need more dads taking parental leave.

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When I triplets, my partner

had to go back to work after two weeks

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and the government was only offering

two weeks of dad partner pay

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and I was at home with premature triplets

trying to breastfeed by myself

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most days, which is just too much

to ask of a person and also

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just not recognition of what a dad brings

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in those early months in that first year.

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And if we don't encourage or have policies

that encourage dads to take

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leave and parental leave, then

women will always be the primary carers.

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I just don't see how that's going to shift

us towards a society where

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either where families feel like

they have more choices.

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When workplaces embrace flexibility

and inclusive policies around parenthood,

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the benefits are multiplied

for everyone in the workforce.

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As more and more women

step in to senior roles in law and working

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dads seek more options

in how they balance their working lives.

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Further changes will be required

to make the legal industry function

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well for everyone.

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One key gap is access to early childhood

education,

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already an industry

that is struggling with its own workers

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shortages and burnout

for those who work within it.

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For parents like Silje

it puts them in a tough spot, being unable

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to access early childhood education

as they navigate returning to work

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while finding qualified educators

to be with their children in the critical

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first years. Of their lives.

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They've been there

for the last six months now.

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How much they benefit

from that sort of structure of routine

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and the education that's provided

by really high quality early education.

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So I'm all for it.

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My bank account is not.

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My bank account is suffering.

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It was a really big shock

when we put them in to childcare,

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and you can't really work out

how much it's going to cost

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until you put them in and stop paying

because it's such a convoluted system.

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But once we put them

in, we worked out that

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actually

it costs more than my salary costs

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a decent chunk, more than my salary

to actually have them in childcare.

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He's there part time

because he does the government

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preschool three days a week

and then five days a fortnight, sorry.

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And then the other day season childcare.

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So yeah, this is

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been an expensive year, the childcare,

and it will continue

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until they basically go to school, but

it's just feels like a slap in the face

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for multiple birth families because I know

I'm not the only one that feels this way

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where you want to get back into work,

you want to continue your career.

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There's definitely long term benefits

obviously of staying connected

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to work and continuing even part time.

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But the sort of immediate financial cost

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doesn't make sense

if you're doing the balance sheet.

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So many parents of multiple

say the same thing

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that the cost of childcare consumes

their entire salary.

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And it feels like,

why am I even bothering?

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It's so hard to think, like if I just quit

my job and I all I did was

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look after the kids we'd be saving money.

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It feels like a privilege to even be able

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to make that decision and say,

well, we're like,

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we're not going to save any money

at the moment.

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But other families

might not be able to make that choice.

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If it costs more than they're going

to earn immediately, then

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they're making the choice to stay home,

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even if it costs almost the same amount

as their salary. They're

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just making the choice to stay home,

which is perfectly reasonable choice.

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And it's just so unfortunate

that they even have to make it.

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In 2024 and beyond, as well as keeping up

with what great talent expects

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from their employers

and ensuring the health

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and wellbeing of team members,

legal employers are facing

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other opportunities and challenges

especially around AI with the.

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AI coming in

and also disrupting everything.

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Really interesting precipice really around

what is the next phase of how

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legal work practices

done with AI and flexibility

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now much more prevalent, but also proving

that these things can be done

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more efficiently,

giving power back to employees, ability

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to have some autonomous decision

making around how they use their time

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and where they spend their time

to get that work done.

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So how much is the legal profession

really evolving?

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It does still, after all,

have a 10% gender pay gap in favor of men,

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according to the latest Workplace

Gender Equality Agency stats.

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And that figure doesn't

tend to include partners

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where the majority of such positions

are still filled by men.

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And you know, women do continue

to leave legal employees to establish

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their own small businesses

and pursue new models of working.

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Just like co

general counsel is appointed at Wesley

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Mission Queensland, a story that we've

recently reported on a women's agenda.

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I'll share some data with the firms

that have completed the benchmark

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assessment for family friendly workplaces.

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Of those who did pursue the benchmark,

only half of such firms are passing many.

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They are meeting the minimum national work

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and family standards set by UNICEF

and family friendly workplaces.

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And as for those that do pass, workplace

flexibility seems to be a key driver,

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with at least 84% of those meeting

all the criteria offered on flexible work.

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And that's important to note

because flexible work

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is one of the biggest drivers

of lowering work life conflict

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and closing

the gender pay gap of parental leave.

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65% of them are offering

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completely inclusive parental leave.

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And what do I mean by that?

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No labels on parental leave equal access

for for men and women to utilize them.

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We are also looking that about half of

them have a focus on family wellbeing.

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So it's not just about an employee

and, and, and what's going on for them,

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but they've got a lens over

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meeting that we would call the family

wellbeing criteria.

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So understanding that

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it's not just about the wellbeing

of their employee, but they have

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that extends out to their family

and how they're supporting them with that.

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And they are the highest ranking scores

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that we particularly

see across our dataset.

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And however there are other areas

that we need room for improvement.

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So we also measure around

leadership culture.

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And I'm going to come back to this.

This is really important.

398

It's one of the second

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flexible work

is the first greatest lever around

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being able to drive less work life

conflict for people.

401

The second one is actually

about leadership culture and how a leader

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will allow an individual to avail

themselves of family friendly provisions.

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Without that having a negative impact.

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It's clear

much has changed for the legal profession.

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Those changes have been driven

by shifting demographics

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and by big global challenges

like the pandemic.

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But in many cases, the changes

have really been driven by women,

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by the trailblazers rising

through the ranks, by the innovators

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creating their own models of working

and even establishing their own firms,

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and as being created by those who've

really advocated for something better.

411

The changes have also been driven

by the business case

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there is a strong competitive advantage

and an economic imperative

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to support the health and wellbeing

of team members in any employer,

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and that includes considering the family

and caring responsibilities they have

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That's it for this

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special edition of the Family

Friendly Workplaces podcast.

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Thank you to all our guests today

who shared their stories

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and their insights and thank you

to our producer Alison Hoey from Women's

419

Agenda, as well as the team at Parents

at Work and Family Friendly Workplaces

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who've been sharing

and supporting us with the data they have.

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Please go and check out

more about the certification process

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for employees at Family

Friendly Workplaces dot com.

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Thank you for listening.