In this conversation with Spencer Moore, friendship expert Alex Alexander discusses the importance of friendships, the dynamics involved, and how to navigate them, even in the context of chronic illness. She emphasizes that friendships are not just about having a best friend but are a spectrum of connections that can provide support in various ways. The discussion also touches on the challenges of asking for help, the impact of societal expectations on friendships, and the importance of community connections. Alex shares insights on how to maintain friendships through life changes and the significance of trust and understanding in building deeper connections.

Takeaways

• Friendship is a spectrum, not a binary concept.
• Many people struggle with defining what a friend means to them.
• Asking for help can strengthen friendships.
• Chronic illness can complicate friendships, but honesty is key.
• Community connections are vital for emotional health.
• Expectations of friendships can lead to disappointment.
• Depth in friendships can come from shared experiences, not just time spent together.
• Trust in oneself and others is crucial for healthy friendships.
• Friend success means supporting each other's needs and interests.
• Friendships evolve, and it's important to adapt to those changes.

Chapters

02:30 The Importance of Connection

05:10 Understanding Friendship

07:38 The Spectrum of Friendships

09:45 Building a Support Network

12:26 Asking for Help

13:56 Navigating Expectations in Friendships

16:38 Quality vs. Quantity in Friendships

18:58 The Role of Trust in Friendships

21:23 Identifying Personal Needs in Friendships

24:02 Navigating New Interests and Friendships

26:48 Understanding Depth in Friendships

31:45 The Role of Trust in Friendships

34:54 Maintaining Friendships Through Chronic Illness

42:00 Building Community and Connection

Links: 

Alex's IG: @itsalexalexander

Alex's Newsletter Sign Up

Alex's Podcast Friendship IRL

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Hi Alex.

Hi Spencer, thanks so much for having me.

Thank you for coming on the podcast. We're so appreciative of your time. This is gonna be such a great episode. Can't wait to introduce you. You are Alex Alexander. What a cool name.

Thank you, I did that to myself.

I love it. It's a great name. It's wonderful. And you are basically like an expert in friendships, which is also so cool. ⁓ Tell me about that.

Well, thank you. Yeah, I

never meant to do this work. I know that sounds I say that on every podcast. I said it to somebody the other day. sounds like such a cliche, but I seriously never could have imagined doing what I'm doing now. I kind of just fell into this. You know, I used to be a luxury wedding planner. I started a food blog where I was kind of the anti Martha Stewart. I would talk about how to get people together in your home as simply as possible.

Mm-hmm.

And at the end of the day, was always about connection. But the more that I talked about, you know, how to have a last minute dinner at your house and how how clean it was didn't matter or you could all eat on the floor. The more I get messages from people saying, you know, it's great that you can tell me how to cook dinner for 10 people. But real talk, how do you have 10 friends?

Mm-hmm.

Right,

right.

And I

had never really even considered it. Like friendship is such

Mm-hmm.

core value of my life that it's just something I have always probably, I don't know if it's my top priority, but it's like absolutely my top three. It takes precedent over a lot of things. So

Yeah.

have...

these really great, amazing friendships, I just assumed everyone else had the same thing.

I really did. And then the more I started talking about friendship, the more my DMs started filling up with people's stories. And the more I realized wow, we all need to be talking about this more. And that's kind of like, that's my whole thing. It's sure at this point, I've talked to a lot of people, I've read a lot about friendship, I've thought a lot about friendship.

guess that makes me an expert, but at the end of the day, I just think that we need, we all, not just me, like everybody needs to be talking about friendship more, because it kind of feels like this forgotten thing or this like undercover, covert, like thing we don't really talk about, but a lot, ⁓ again, my DMs are confidential. A lot of people are struggling with, even like if it looks on the outside, like everything's great, people have a lot of thoughts and a lot of feelings that they want to talk about.

Right.

Yeah, you know, so, okay, there's this statistic that I love that talks about how

is more dangerous than smoking 15 cigarettes a day, which blows your mind when you really think of it. You think that there are all these things that you can avoid in life to stay healthy, but connection and social connection is so, so important. But I also think about friendships and relationships kind of like what they say about dogs, which is kind of strange, but hear me out. Dogs can be so good for your health, right? They can lower your blood pressure.

petting them, can make you calm. But if you have a dog that doesn't behave or that choose your furniture or things like that, it can be so incredibly stressful and it can bring so much more stress into your life than alleviate your stress and help with your health. I feel like friendships can be similar. If you have a good foundation for a friendship and you have the support and kind of it goes both ways, it can bring so much joy to your life.

Mm-hmm.

But if you're not quite sure how to establish those types of strong foundations, then relationships can get really sticky and stressful. Do you find that a lot of people kind of find challenges in that way with friendships?

Yeah.

yes. And there's so many things I can say about what you just said. know, people absolutely find challenges. And when I really start talking to people, one of my biggest things is like, what is a friend?

What is a friend? And most people have never really thought about that for themselves. Like maybe they've taken some example from a movie or a TV show or a book or the things they heard in the schoolyard as a kid. Most people have never really considered what makes someone a friend to them. They can't describe it. And yet we're out here having interactions where we feel, you know, supported or wronged or this or that.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

without really understanding why. And so the reason I bring up like what is a friend is because think a lot of people think friendship is black or white. And something I talk about a lot is like friendship is a spectrum. And in fact, I don't even think we can really separate friendship from our other relationships. Friendship, when you look at your life, you have this framework called the Wheel of Connection, you have to look at your

right.

sure.

family of origin, your community, your friendships, your chosen family, which can be the same people that fall in a bunch of those other categories, but it's this like holistic picture of the people around you. And when we start to talk about it that way, what I find is a lot of people realize that they actually have a lot more than they thought they did. And even if they're not those, you know, like peak,

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

movie perfect friendships, you start to see that like maybe there's some value hidden in there. Maybe there's some people that are there for you, would show up for you, that if you put a little time and energy into that relationship, maybe it would develop into something deeper. But I really think that black or white is hard for people. And then you add the fact that it's that impactful on your health. You know, the

15 cigarettes, great example, don't know, another great resource for people is there's a documentary on Netflix called The Blue Zone, where they, maybe you watch this.

Yes,

I have watched this. Yes, it's great.

So they go in and they look at the highest number of centurions, so people over the age of 100, and there's I five locations, and they talk about food and exercise and connection, and they kind of break down the top things that are contributing to people living so long. But at the end of the day, the one that has the most impact is connection.

Mm-hmm.

Kiss.

Mm-hmm.

and they say that it has a 15 year swing on your life.

That's unbelievable. Yeah.

15 years. And so

then if we tie that back into what I was saying about a spectrum, like if you watch that Blue Zone documentary, people have really close friends, but they also just have community. They just have these like simple connections that they meet up with in their town center that they say hello to when they're walking through the market. And so like, yes, friendship is hard.

Mm-hmm.

But I guess my hope in talking about it is if people realize there's this broader spectrum of connections, maybe it'll feel a little bit easier to start building from wherever you are.

I love that you say that. and it's kind of like so unspoken because there's this culture of like the BFF and the best friend and especially talking about women, you know, this is a really female led podcast and I talked to lot of women about a lot of things related to our health and wellness. you know, there's kind of this feeling of if I don't have a best friend, like the one that is my ride or die I've kind of failed in like friendships, right?

And so I love that you think that it's a spectrum and that there's kind of different ways and that also there are people that will show up for you that maybe you didn't think you had that support until you step back and think like, wow, these people are, they are my people, right? ⁓ I think that's really, really helpful.

you know, we are wired. Our bodies are wired for connection, for support. We know deep down inside, no matter what we tell ourselves, that we are not supposed to do this life alone. And so I I do think that that BFF

Mm-hmm.

mantra, that idea is really harmful to be quite honest, because now that feeling of survival and support is put on one person. We're putting all of our eggs in one basket. And that also, even if you have that, like what if that goes away?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

What if something happens to that friend? if, you know, what if there's a friendship breakup, but also what if they get ill and they're not around as much anymore? What if they pass away? Sorry, I have a lot of death in my life. So like, I just have to be realistic about that. We don't know. I like to think of this concept of a BFF as more of kind of a board of directors. Like if you look at your life,

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Right.

Who do you need for the dynamic, unique person you are?

Mm-hmm. Sure.

What areas of support are people really showing up for you? But also what areas are you having fun? What interests are you exploring with certain friends? You know, I have a variety of incredibly close girlfriends

Mm-hmm.

I don't even think if I pick one of

could fill all those buckets for

I do think having now like experienced this for anybody who's listening to me and they're like, well that would never work because that one friend I'm really close with would be upset, right? They'd be jealous. We don't want that. Like that's a big piece of it too. I am here to tell you that it does take some work to kind of change.

bright.

this friendship culture, but I actually think it's a relief to everyone. It's a relief to know that if one of my closest dearest friends goes through something incredibly hard, I'm not the only one. I can call other people and if I'm going through something, don't have to forsake all my needs, right? We can spread it out.

Right?

Mm-hmm.

And it takes a little time, but at this point, my girlfriends and I, like, if I have a friend who's going through something really hard and they tell me they called another friend first, my response is, I am so happy you have her. I am so grateful that she is also on your team, that she is also there for you. Like, I also want to be there for you, but I want my friend to have everything she needs. And that's...

Mm-hmm.

sure.

may not be what I can provide.

Right, Yeah, I like this concept of thinking about the capacity that people have and also playing to their strengths. I love this kind of board of directors. You pack a board of directors with different people with different strengths to be able to attack everything together. I did a podcast recently with a really great guest, Charlotte, and she's a cancer caregiver expert And she helps people kind of learn about caregiving and avoiding caregiving burnout. One of the things she said that

Mm-hmm.

reminds me of this is that she's talking about like asking for help, going to your support network and asking for help when you're in these moments where crying on the floor because you don't have dinner made and it's eight o'clock at night. And she said, but remember that when you ask for help, play up to the strengths of the people you're asking for. So don't ask somebody that's never mowed a lawn to come and mow your lawn, you know, or to bring food if they always get takeout, you know, ask the person that would be excited to engage with you and to help you.

Yep.

in whatever you need help with. And I think that's so true when you think about kind of having this network of friends is you have kind of different people with different strengths that you can then lean on, right? Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, and you know, this goes back to the idea of the the really close friendships, but also those simpler friendships or your community. Like sometimes maybe some really niche needs you have isn't anything even your close board of directors can fill, but it might be so easy for that one person who I don't know you work with.

Mm-hmm.

short.

that you're not like that close with, but it is their exact strength. And they would love to help you with that. Right? Because not only is it maybe easy for them, but it might be something they enjoy doing.

Right, right. And I think also like people enjoy helping people, it makes us feel good, right?

Yes, yes. Yeah,

I mean, I always turn this around on the person I'm talking to. It's like, don't you feel good when you get to help people? I feel good. But I think it's sometimes we have to force the other person we're talking to to remember. Like, I love when a friend calls me to ask if I can help. I want to be there for them.

Yeah.

Right, right. how do you find kind of having the ability to ask for help? Like saying, I need something. Do you find that people struggle with that and kind of in developing friendships that it's challenging to ask for something?

Yeah,

it's hard to ask for help, but I think part of the reason it's hard to ask for help is because we feel like we can only ask for certain things. Get weird, get niche, get very specific.

sure.

that makes it easier to ask for help. The other thing I would tell people is like, the more you can ask for help in really small insignificant ways, when you don't need it, the easier it is to let people in, in the really big hard moments, like in the moments where you're in the ER or you're or you're having an emergency with your kiddo or whatever that big

Right.

Mm-hmm.

your whole crisis moment is, it's easier to ask someone for help if you have already asked them to help you in small mundane ways before. And you've built up that muscle, right? You're like starting to trust that they will show up because they've showed up before.

Crisis. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And that could be as simple as like when somebody comes over to your house, let's say, and you're making dinner and they ask if they can help you.

sure.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And you're like, no, no, no, no, I

got it, I got it, I got it, got it. Pick some really silly tasks. Like, I don't know, can you fold the paper towels and put them on the table? Thanks. Start to build that muscle in the moments you don't need it.

Yeah, sure.

Right. It's really, it's something I don't think a lot of people think of, you know? and I would say maybe as women, is that we're kind of ingrained to like do it all ourselves, you know? Be that person that can, oh no, don't need your help, go please sit down and you rest and like I'll run around like a chicken with my head cut off doing everything so I can just be doing everything, right? And so I think that there's that...

Mm-hmm.

kind of giving a bit of trust in somebody else that they can do it for you and that's okay. know, letting go of that control.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think part of, because you're hitting on something really important, which is that a lot of women are overwhelmed already with care tasks. so, and like, I know that my friend who's also a woman is probably overwhelmed with care tasks. So I want to maybe gift her an evening where she doesn't have to do anything.

That's really sweet and that's kind, but that's, think, where that strengths piece comes in. You know, spend a second, it probably shouldn't take you that long, to think about what she might actually like to do, right? What is her strength? So if we're still talking about the very simple dinner example, I love to cook. So a lot of friends, when I offer to help, if I'm like at their house and they're making dinner,

Mm-hmm.

They'll at me because they know I love to cook. This isn't something I dislike. Similarly, I have a friend, Jess. She does not love to cook. I'm often cooking in her in her kitchen. But if she comes over, she loves to decorate, right? She loves decor. She loves setting the table. She loves that kind of stuff. And that's what I'll ask her to do. I'll be like, here's my cabinets. Here's my whatever. Like pluck things from around the house, pull some candles, do whatever you want. Like

Can you set the table? Now, guys, often we are just eating with normal plates and paper napkins and like half the people are sitting on the floor. But if we're doing something a little nice, that's a great way for me to ask her to help in a way that she actually thinks is fun.

Yeah.

Yeah, of course. You know, it's interesting. I was invited with my husband to go have dinner with some friends and I've been on a restrictive diet for some health issues and so I had just asked if I could bring my own food and the host said like, no, no, like I'll adjust to your dietary restrictions, it's no problem.

And we kind of went back and forth about it because the restrictions were a lot and I felt uncomfortable. I felt uncomfortable having her adjust what she would be serving because of my restrictions and I just thought it's just so much easier for me to just bring my own food. I would prefer to do that. And we kind of like texted a bunch back and forth and then she said something which I just didn't think of at the time. She said, let me take care of you. Let me take this off your plate literally and like give you a plate of food that you don't have to think about.

And there are a few things there that I think were so important And one was that I needed to trust her that she could, you know, be responsible with feeding me food that I could eat, but also that she wanted to take care of me. It was such a nice thing. And I think in that moment of like control and anxiety and, you know, I lost the base of the friendship, which is like,

Mm-hmm.

the friend that you take care of each other, you know? So I think that that was a really nice example for me of kind of seeing that it's a way like you letting your friend do the designing. It's like, know, that makes her happy. So you give her that task, right? Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. I

think,

the situation you were in, we feel like it's an either or, right? It's a yes or a no. It's a yes, you can cook for me or a no, will bring my own food. And this is I like to remind people, like, what is the third option? What is the middle ground? So she's asking for your trust. I don't know how well you know this person.

bright.

But if food has the potential to make you sick all the time, right, I also deal with that. And it is trust. It's a lot of trust. I mean, I don't even necessarily have that trust with myself all the time, right? Let alone another person. So this is where it's like, okay, well, what is the middle ground? Like, okay, can you cook that meal? But can I also bring a dish that I know I can eat that I prepared myself so that

Cheers.

Yes. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Maybe you go there and you fill your plate with three quarters of the dish you brought because you trust, but you do eat the other parts of the meal in a smaller quantity. And like that's a way to tiptoe into it. It's similar to my small, simple examples. Like it doesn't need to be full blown. And I get that that...

is more thought and more conversation and more work. But at the end of the day, like it's baby steps, I guess, right? It's the same. does everything in friendship often I think feels black or white and it doesn't need to be. We need to stop thinking about it that way in all senses.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Right, So when you talk about black and white, know, and earlier we kind of talked about the BFF being a bit toxic and things like that. what do you think about

expectations of friendships and kind of how we've been ingrained to believe friendships should be. You kind of touched on this earlier, but I'd love to kind of go a bit deeper, especially kind of in the realm of female friendships, right?

we live in this world where if we think of romance, for example, right, we are told to find that one person. And that's the one for us. That's the one we're going to spend.

gosh, an insane amount of time in our lifetime, if you've ever seen those graphs about how much time you spend with people. They're gonna be our emergency gonna plan our finances together, we're gonna potentially co-parent together, whether it's children or animals or whatever, we are going to align our beliefs and our causes, we are going to go on adventures and travel, we're going to be roommates and like, it's this endless list, right?

Yes.

Yeah, right. Yeah. ⁓

And similarly, we have done the same thing with our friendships. This idea that if you find that one BFF, if you find that one

Mm-hmm.

friend, that one person, and for some people, they even think that their romantic partner is also that BFF. So now we've taken two people and put it onto one. We've just really narrowed so...

Right.

low. So like so few people, so few people and you hear it when go out there in your day to day and start listening right because people will tell you like ⁓ well I only need a couple close friends or I just need that one person. It's in our language, it's everywhere and it's wild.

because then we have put all the pressure on one to two people and on ourselves, right? Like we live in this ⁓ hyper individualized society where we are told to just self-care our way out of it.

Sure.

tour.

Mm-hmm.

Like if I am successful, I can get myself out of anything, maybe with the help of a very small number of people, but really I should be able to do it on my own. So that's all to say, like this BFF culture, do we, if we take a step back and we think about what I just said, like, do we really think that's the way we're supposed to be living?

Right, right, because I do think there has been this like shift of like quality over quantity and there has been this kind of like change over the years of like, well we don't need this big huge network of friends where you can be okay with just a handful and they can be your everything. So it's not even like the BF of the one, but it's like you can have three and they fulfill everything for you, right?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

But then I think the question is like, what is quality? Is quality that that one person can meet 80 % of your needs?

Mm-hmm.

Kind of. To what level? Like mediocre? Sometimes, most of the time, right? They're hitting Cs on 80 % of your needs. Alternatively, what if you had a few more people, but each of those people could hit just a couple of your needs to an A level?

Yeah.

Right.

tour.

Right.

What is quality?

Right.

that quality

someone who actually, like, let's use, I think we might be getting to this later in the episode, but like, I also have chronic illnesses.

Mm-hmm.

many of my closest friends have learned a lot about my chronic illnesses in the last year, they don't live with this.

Right.

They believe me, they understand, they are supportive, they have learned a lot. I would say that for what they can do, honestly, they have A's. But they don't live with it, they don't get it. And don't I deserve somebody who gets it?

because I think I do. And that's not diminishing to those friendships, but it is an added value to me.

I think the thing that...

in order to have people that can fulfill your needs, 20%, 80%, 100%, you have to know what your needs are, right? And so I mean, I think that's the most complicated part of all of it you

Yes. ⁓

of a community of people that are dealing with the same chronic illness that I'm dealing with so that I can text somebody or I can email somebody and say, wow, I'm in the thick of it. I've hit a wall with my health plan. Can you like give me some support or offer me some resources? Right? it's really hard to know what your needs are. No.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. So I mean, number one, this was never meant to be a plug for my book. That's not my why I came on your podcast, but I do have a book coming out that literally guides people on how to do this, like how to start with themselves, how to think about the community they need and how to go out and build it. The reason it's hard is because it's not what we're used to doing.

You

the beginning, this seems really scary and overwhelming. You don't...

know what types of people you need in your life and I do have resources to help you figure out kind of that initial list and then to look at what needs you have and the people you have that already fill them versus the needs you have where you don't have anybody and then like that's kind of where you put your energy. I walk you through all that that process but what I will say to people is once you start thinking this way it just becomes natural.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm not just saying that because I do this, right? I've been talking about this stuff on the internet and in workshops and all the places for years now. I have people who are not me who have started thinking this way and it's just a way of life. They'll start to notice that something about their life has shifted. They now need connection to support that area of their life, whether it's a new business venture, a new illness, that they became parents, that they got divorced.

Right.

that they now are super passionate about bird watching. And all of their current friends are trying to be supportive. This actually reminds me, a social media video of this girl who decided she was really into bird watching. And she's standing in front of a TV and she's got like her new binoculars with a strap.

sure.

Yeah

like a specific strap where she can set them down, but something about the strap is special where like when she picks them up really fast, helps her see the birds quicker, you know, it's like doesn't get in the way. And she's showing it to her friends and her friends are obviously trying to be really supportive, but they're not really that into it. And they're like, I love this for you. I love this for you. And that goes back to what I was saying earlier is your current friends might be trying to support your new interest in bird watching.

Sure.

No.

Yeah.

Sure, sure.

They love that you're deeply

passionate about it, but when you go to ask them if they wanna go birdwatching with you, they're like, hmm, right? Cause they don't wanna go. It's not their interest. They're not into it. But you deserve someone who also is just as excited and kinda wants to buy that strap and wear matching ones with you and show up

Right.

Right, right.

sunny mornings or foggy mornings whenever you're supposed to go birdwatching, cause I don't do that.

be just as nerdy about keeping a journal. We all deserve that.

Right, I went through a phase where when I became friends with somebody, I wanted to be like the closest friend with them. Like it was hard for me to accept just having friendly acquaintances or I mean that they were friends, but I always felt like it needed to be this really deep connection. And that can cause a lot of burnout on both sides and it can cause you to kind of force something that's maybe not so natural.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

because

the goal is just to become the closest of friends instead of just enjoying what you have with each other that's more natural. So I kind of like this thought of the bird watching because perhaps that person that you find that can bird watch with you, they don't have to do everything with you, but you can bird watch with them,

No, yes,

Like that might just be your bird watching friend. And I have this wheel of connection that would be probably like a defined friend because that's normally somebody where it's like your bird watching friend. There's like one avenue you spend a lot of connection with them. But that person, in my opinion, is just as important as maybe some of your closest, oldest friends, because they hold this part of you that is.

Exactly. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

new and exciting and a budding interest and like they don't need to be more but there is value there and we're not really taught that and the other thing I want to talk about is you mentioned this idea of depth and I just want to throw this out to people that like again we are taught that depth is kind of being able to be a part of a friend's life in all the ways

Yes.

Yes.

I'm thinking of my friend, Caitlin, I've talked about her before on my podcast.

She has a kiddo with a medical complexity. My nephew was born, gosh, a little over two years ago now. He was in the NICU for nine months, right?

Mm-hmm.

wow.

are plenty of things I did for her. I was there for her, but at the end of the day, I am not a NICU mom. can never understand that piece of her journey.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

And so even if we go with that old model of friendship where I am, I'm always there, I'm always asking her, I'm always this, I'm always that, right? She deserves people who have walked that same path as her to talk about and understand that experience.

And so then that begs the question of like, what is depth? Because I think in our friendship, right? That's where I've hit my limit.

So for me, the depth is cheering her on every time she talks about a NICU mom friend. That's my depth, is that I know I can't fill that need for her.

Right.

But the depth is like, gosh, I want her to have that with my whole being. I'm like over here, I have chills. I want her to have that so bad. And it's not me. It will never be me. In my opinion, that's depth.

short.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And maybe that's a new way

for people to think about it.

I do think it's a new way because I I think that and like I said I go back to reality TV like I mean the models that we see of friendship they're terrible they're not like this at all. They are women talking about each other behind their backs and being inauthentic and you know but they're not this and so it's so wonderful to me that you're sharing this and I think your book is amazing that's coming out and I didn't even mention this at the beginning because we just jumped right into it but you have an incredible

I suck. They're awful.

Mm-hmm.

podcast that's called Friendship IRL in real life for anybody that doesn't know IRL, talking to my mom basically. And so I think it's amazing because this is what we need. And especially for women to support women and females to really be that support that we need. Life is hard and women have hard lives. And so I love that you're sharing this because it is new. It's different, you know?

Yes, yes.

It is. It is. And maybe just one way for people to reframe this and think of this is often if...

Yeah. Yeah.

maybe in the old model of this like BFF model, I would be wondering what I can't provide my friend. Like, why am I not enough? That's where our brains often go. And the flip side, right? What I'm trying to do now is wonder, what can that other friend provide my friend? Because I want her to have that.

Mm-hmm.

Right, right.

Mm-hmm. Sure.

and I'm focused on

her instead of on what I can't provide. Like an example of this, like I have this kind of, I

this bigger friend group, but there's these girls in this friend group and the friend group shifted over time. I mean gosh, I like did the whole, there's probably 10 girls in here. And within that group, some of us are,

Hmm.

closer than others. Like some people are a little bit more acquaintances or newer. Some people are, you know, have been friends for 16 years. There's a couple of kind of like closer groups that talk about and there's groups that even overlap where there's like three of us here and three girls over there and I'm part of another three with one. Like it's all these dynamics. And I think a lot of people would hear that and be like, my gosh, the amount of jealousy, but there's not, there's not, because all we think about is like,

Mm-hmm.

Right.

I'm so happy you have whatever

little trio provides you. I know that when we're hanging out, we're having a great time, but it is different than that. And so I'm gonna value what I have here, but I also want you, my friend, to have that.

And it's like a whole new way of thinking for people.

Yeah, it is because it's like a selfless way. you know, it's like giving the other party of the friendship the benefit of the doubt, right? That like they're wanting what's good for you and you're wanting what's good for them. And I think that takes trust.

Mm-hmm.

right? To kind of... yeah.

It does. It does. I think,

but I think part of that trust is also in yourself. it's like, if I want to maybe be closer with said, with one of those friends, if they are going to a concert and I'm like, man, that would be so fun. I want to go. Then I have to trust myself that one, should maybe tell them like, Hey, I want to go to some concerts or I should find some concerts and be like, do you want to go to these with me? Right? Like.

Mm-hmm.

I trust myself that I can build the connections I want and need and therefore the jealousy doesn't really become this negative thing. It almost becomes this guiding light because a lot of times when my friends tell me about things they're doing, I'm just like, I love that for you. Because honestly, I'm not jealous. I don't really want to do that thing that they're doing. Like that's right. If they're off bird watching, I'm like, I love that for you too. Together, have fun doing that.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

But if I am jealous, then that's kind of a guiding light of like, okay, so I need to take some action here. If I wanna go birdwatching suddenly, I gotta be like, hey, when do you guys go? Where are some places? Could I set up a time, right? Use that as my guiding light to take action because there's nothing to say I can't that in my friendships. I gotta use that information to do exactly that.

work.

tour.

I like how you call it the old model. I think that in the old model, it's easy in that model to kind of set yourself up for disappointment, maybe with unrealistic expectations of how the friendship should be, or maybe you kind of hint to somebody that you want to do something and they say like, well, we go on Tuesdays and we go alone. So basically, like, you're not invited. know, like, things happen where you can be disappointed, but it doesn't mean that

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

everybody is going to disappoint you or that every friendship is going to be disappointing. You know, there's also that trust I like that you say in yourself of like, keep moving forward, keep trying, keep trying new things, meeting new people, right?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and be curious. Like if somebody tells you we go on Tuesdays and we go alone, ask them like, why do you go only the two of you? You know, I'm just curious. it because more people scare away the birds? Is it because this is the one time you get to hang out in that friendship and that matters to you? Like at the end of the day, if you get curious, oftentimes I find it's not about me. And there might, if they see I'm curious, if they see I care enough,

Yes.

there might be a way to figure, know, maybe they're like, maybe we go twice a Once, whatever it is, I'm just saying like curiosity often removes, like suddenly you realize it's not about you.

Yeah, and I think that one thing I've learned is I've kind of, I moved to another country, I started a new life and a new culture, you know, has its ups and downs in terms of, you know, building relationships. But I learned that a lot of times it's not about you. But we're just so centered in ourselves sometimes that we just think that like, that person was short and it must have been something I said or did, or there's just all these kind of spirals that we can get into.

Mm-hmm.

but really removing yourself and thinking of like what's going on in their life? What could have caused that reaction that was so strong and not like them, right? ⁓ It does ⁓ calm things, right?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And be just as curious about yourself too, right? Like why do I suddenly want to go bird watching? Do I want to get out into nature? Is it because I want to be closer to that one friend? Is it because I don't have a lot of hobbies? Like what, what is it? Why, why am I feeling a draw to that? Because maybe you also can satisfy that draw that you're feeling in another way.

Yeah, sure. You touched on something earlier that I'd love to touch on now is that you talked about chronic illness and you know, I said I talk a lot in this podcast about female health and wellness know, 80 % of autoimmune disease is female-led. Like women are sick and tired and they don't have a lot of energy and they have a lot of responsibility, a lot of expectations and you know, I think that maintaining friendships

Yeah.

especially when you're dealing with something like chronic illness can be really challenging. I know in my case, you know, with my chronic illness, I've declined so many invitations and I started saying to people like, no, I'm sorry, I can't come, but please don't stop asking because I just knew that and I had this fear that I just, never went to things and I thought like, my God, they're just gonna stop calling one day and I'm gonna feel so bad that I didn't go.

I know that you've been through a journey in the past year with some health complications and you have your own story about that, but I'd love for you to kind of touch on how you've navigated maintaining friendships and kind of that balance through your illness.

You know, was thinking before this recording today what to say about this because I do feel like I have been

Very lucky.

I haven't, if I'm being honest with you, I haven't felt that many impacts on my friendship. And I think that that comes down to two things. One is that when I have realized how not great I felt, I've been honest about it. I...

Mm-hmm.

Like I had a very, I have a friend who is not necessarily one of my closest friends, but she's like my work bestie. for a lot of 2024, there were periods of time where she would like ask for something work related or message me or whatnot. And I would just not respond for days at a time. And I would love to know what she thought. She probably thought I was just so flaky. Like it was probably so frustrating. And.

Right.

One day I had this moment where I texted her and I was like, Hey, I really haven't told you this, but I've been stuck in bed like four days a week and I'm really sorry if you're, you know, frustrated. And she was just like, I had no idea. I had no idea. And so guess what I would say to people is like, as soon as you can be honest, do it. And I know that sounds hard because it's hard to even be honest with ourselves.

You don't have to give all the information. You don't have to have it all together. You don't have to have a solution. don't really owe anybody anything, but I do think if you wanna keep friendships moving forward, right? Because otherwise people start doing what we talked about earlier where they start making it about themselves and it's not about them.

Right?

No. Right.

So I guess,

you if you're trying to be kind to your friends, one kindness is just to alleviate the worry they have. So that's the first one. The second thing that I think has made a big difference is that I give my friends information when they ask for it.

bright.

but I don't expect them to know any answers kind of thing, right? Like they're not my doctors. They've often never heard of these illnesses that I have. They varying levels of questions.

Mm-hmm.

But it's not like I'm sitting there endlessly like ask like, what do you think I should do? They don't know. They don't know, right? So I kind of, I kind of just, it's like show and tell. Like I just tell them what's going on

bright.

can ask whatever questions they want, but I'm not expecting them to be able to guide my medical.

decisions Gosh, I just thought of one more thing. ⁓ this is actually a recent one that I've been allowing I'm gonna tell anybody with a chronic illness because I think when you have a chronic illness For most people when somebody asks like, how have you been? What have you been up to lately? That's a really hard question cuz your your answer your answer sucks your answers like hmm, well, I've been trying a new med so I've been stuck in bed a lot and I've gone to a new PT and

is our question.

Mmm.

for doctors appointments and I kind of have these answers and I kind of don't, right? That's not a very, maybe exciting update when some other people might be saying whatever. So I've just allowed

Right.

bright.

the kind of meh update of like, well, it's been a lot more doctors appointments. Like that's what I've been up to. And although sometimes it does kind of bring the mood down or it's not that exciting, what I've decided is that someday when my update is something else and we all realize that my update for a year has been doctors appointments and now I'm telling them I'm going to

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

do something fun or my book's coming out or whatever, right? It's gonna add even more excitement to it because we're all gonna remember when I was in the depths of the sickness. And so that's my way of kind of like letting them in on this journey I'm on in whatever small ways.

I agree. And I think

the question of how have you been, what have you been up to for some of the chronic illness, I completely agree. It's like a trigger. It's like, oh my gosh, I mean, I got out of bed three days this week, you know, and I showered each of those days. Like it was a big week and I'm really tired from it. You know, like that that's a hard thing to hear from the other side.

Yeah, and for, you know, if you're somebody out there with chronic illness who you have a variety of friends who don't have any chronic illness, this goes back to that idea of kind of like slowly build up, right? Say, I mean, I'll tell my friends some weeks, like, how was your week? Like, oh, I had two days where I was stuck in bed this week and I haven't had that in a few weeks. And like, that's kind of a bummer, but I'm hoping for one to zero this week, right? And that gives them something.

to ask about, like the next week, how many days in bed were we this week? Did we get better, right? And I'm like, none. They're like, yeah. Give them some markers of what to be excited about. I feel like I also try really hard. Like if I have a new doctor, for example, I went and saw a new PT yesterday and I was texting a friend of mine who doesn't have any chronic, she has some neck pain, but like she doesn't have the same chronic illness stuff. And I was like, I was like, I love him.

Sure, yeah.

already, he's so nerdy. And if we have learned anything on this journey, it's like the nerdier ones that really get into it and exciting. Like Spencer, he was telling me about how some PT exercise I was doing was going to support the muscles underneath the bone that holds up my brainstem. And he was just like, so excited about it. And that's what you want. That's what you want. And I was telling my friend, like we got another

Do we?

It's what you want, it's true, it's really what you want, yes.

one who is just so deep in it, we're excited, we're excited. And she's like, yeah, we, right? That's a way for them to be on your team, to celebrate. That doesn't even have me telling what we did in the PT appointment, but giving her this marker, like this new provider feels like a really good fit and I'm excited to go down this path. Like that sets her up for friend success too.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I like that, a friend success. I love that

because it really is. you talk about friendships, but you also talk about community building. And so I think that being a part of a community is so important also.

It's interesting when you were talking about the Blue Zones, ⁓ I live in Spain, I moved here almost a decade ago, which is crazy. And Spain is on track to be one of the countries with the longest longevity because it is so community based. And I love that. I when I go out on Sundays, Sunday is like the family friend day here in Spain. Everything is closed here on Sunday. So it's not like, you know, grocery shopping. Like you can't do anything on Sundays. Everything's closed.

Wow. Yeah.

And so everybody just walks around together, like even in the rain, like with umbrellas, you see like grandkids with their grandparents, you see friends and couples, and it's beautiful to see that people are just out in the community saying hello to their neighbors, connecting with people. It's a really nice thing. because it's not even just about our friendships, right? It's about being part of something so much bigger, yeah?

Well,

and they also, there's a stat that says that you, what is it? Women lose half their friendships every seven years. And that can feel really daunting in that old model of BFF. Like, ⁓ gosh, right? And then you're panicked a little bit because you don't want to lose those friendships. Because again, you put all your eggs in one basket. And it might not even be that the friendships bad. It might just be that some life change happens or people move across the world or like,

Yeah.

It could be good things. It could be good things that shift your friendship. Doesn't mean you lose it, but it could shift your friendship where it's not as present anymore. And so then that begs the question like, okay, well, where are we refilling our board of directors or where are we adding when we have a new interest or a new phase of life? And that's from the people you're meeting out in the world. Whether that's friends of friends or community members or a new neighbor or...

You

Yeah.

a coworker, a parent at your kid's school, whoever it is. It is, our social connections are ever changing. They are not locked in space. But if you cut yourself off from all those simple connections, if you've decided like, oh, they just aren't that important, they don't matter to me, they aren't that two to three people I need, you've cut off your own funnel.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, And you talk a lot on your platform about friend breakups and things like that. And I'm going to just leave that there. If people are interested,

That's

check out Alex's Instagram page. ⁓ You've got a great website. You've got your book that's coming out. Do you have any kind of updates about when your book is gonna be coming out?

I just saw the ebook the other day for the first time. It's wild to see it all done. I actually don't get to pick the date. So as soon as the people tell me, I'll tell everyone else. Sign up for the newsletter. That's where I'll announce it.

Fantastic. So Okay.

Yeah,

there it is. Sign up for her newsletter and she will announce it there. Thank you so much for your time, Alex. This has been a great conversation and I'm just, really happy to have chatted with you. It's been great.

Thanks, Spencer. This was so fantastic. I love being here and I can't wait to hear what everyone thinks. Send me a message. I always love to hear from people who are listening.

Please do that. That's awesome. Okay, thank you.