In this discourse, we delve into the imperative of prioritizing the voices of students in the educational paradigm. Our esteemed guests, three college-age individuals, share their reflective experiences navigating the K-12 system and transitioning into higher education. They articulate the pivotal moments that shaped their educational journeys, emphasizing the necessity for schools to embrace a human-centered approach that acknowledges students as individuals with unique needs and aspirations. This episode underscores the profound insight that, in order to cultivate future-ready educational environments, we must first foster connections that are genuine and responsive to the lived realities of students. Thus, we embark on a critical exploration of the essence of education, advocating for a profound shift from mere compliance to authentic engagement.

Additional Notes

This episode of The Wheelhouse presents a thought-provoking examination of the educational journeys undertaken by three college students, who provide invaluable insights into their experiences within the K-12 education system. The discussion is framed around critical questions regarding the reality of education as perceived by students, contrasting this with the often detached nature of institutional policies and frameworks. The students articulate the significance of feeling seen and valued in their educational environments, which they argue is fundamental to their academic success and personal development. Their reflections challenge the prevailing narrative within educational discourse, emphasizing that genuine student engagement is not merely a desirable outcome, but a necessity for effective learning. Throughout the episode, the students share poignant anecdotes that reveal both the positive and negative influences of their educational experiences. They recount moments of inspiration and support, as well as instances of alienation and misunderstanding, all of which shaped their perceptions of school. This duality of experience serves to highlight the critical importance of fostering a human-centered approach to education, one that prioritizes the emotional and psychological needs of students alongside their academic pursuits. The discussion is particularly resonant in its call for educators to actively listen to the voices of their students, thereby creating opportunities for meaningful dialogue and connection. As the conversation progresses, it becomes clear that the students’ narratives are not just personal reflections, but rather a broader commentary on the need for educational reform. Their collective message underscores the imperative for schools to evolve into spaces that nurture and support all students, particularly those who have historically been marginalized or overlooked. By embracing this vision of a more inclusive and compassionate educational landscape, educators can work towards creating environments that truly honor the humanity of each student, paving the way for a brighter and more equitable future in education.

Takeaways:

1. The podcast emphasizes the necessity of listening to students about their educational experiences and needs.
2. Educators must recognize the significant impact of their words and actions on students' self-perception and motivation.
3. Creating human-centered educational environments requires a commitment to understanding students' personal journeys and challenges.
4. There is a critical need for empathy and connection between educators and students to foster a supportive learning atmosphere.

Follow Students Matter, LLC on Instagram or LinkedIn — or find any of us there: Kathy Mohney, Michael Pipa, Dr. Alicia Monroe, and Dr. Grant Chandler.

Students Matter

LearnHarbor

Until Next Time Remember: See every student. Keep your doors open and your hearts even wider.

We spend a lot of time in education talking about what students need.

But how often do we stop long enough to ask students what school actually felt like?

What stayed with them?

What pushed them forward?

What shut them down?

What did they need that adults never quite saw?

In this episode of the Wheelhouse, we hear directly from three college age students reflecting on their journey through K12 and into higher education.

What shaped them, what prepared them, what did it, and what they want educators to understand now.

Because if we want schools to be future ready, they have to be human first.

A new episode of the Wheelhouse begins right now.

Welcome to the Wheelhouse, where education leaders, teachers, and change makers come together to explore what it really takes to build schools that are future ready, human centered, and worthy of the students they serve.

I'm Dr. Grant Chandler, and this season we've been exploring a core belief that innovation in schools must be rooted in humanity and build through coherent human systems.

The idea sounds good.

Why, it's even easy to say.

But today's episode asks a much harder question.

Do students actually experience our schools that way?

Because schools are full of plans, frameworks, initiatives, and improvement strategies.

But students don't live school as a strategy.

They live it as a daily human experience.

They remember whether they were known.

They remember whether they were challenged.

They remember whether they felt like they belonged.

And they remember whether school felt connected to the life they were actually trying to build.

So in today's episode, we make what I believe is the next necessary move for this season.

We stop talking about students and we listen to them.

Today, we're joined by three college age students who are looking back on their experiences in K12 education and reflecting on how those experiences shaped their transition into higher education and adulthood.

We'll talk about what helped, what hurt, what prepared them, what was missing, and what they want teachers and school leaders to hear now.

Because before we redesign schools for the future, we need the courage to hear what students have already been telling us.

Let's get into it.

Good morning, I'm Dr. Grant Chandler and welcome back to another episode of the Wheelhouse, one that we have been looking forward to for quite a while.

So I'll tell you a little bit about that in just a moment, but I first want to welcome the entire Wheelhouse team today again, Kathy Mone, Michael Pipa, and Dr. Alicia Monroe.

Welcome back to the Wheelhouse.

Good morning.

So glad to see all of you.

Our favorite day, our favorite day of the week.

Woo hoo.

It's Tuesday morning.

We're in daylight savings time.

It's above 20 degrees where I live, life is beautiful.

It may go as high as 70 out here in New York.

Woo.

The same here, right?

The same here all the time.

The sun was shining yesterday.

It was gorgeous.

I hear this nice weather is going to come with some nasty weather tonight.

So wherever you are, hope you will stay safe.

We had a tornado not too far from us last week, so I'm hoping that, you know, severe doesn't mean that again.

Well, welcome.

Welcome to the Wheelhouse.

For those of you who are listening, this is an exciting episode.

We've been talking about bringing students to the wheelhouse and asking them really, really important and poignant questions about their experiences.

And we're going to do that in a series of episodes.

So this is just one a great and very important first.

But there will be other conversations with other students from different parts of the country, from different levels of education.

Today, however, we are joined by three amazing individuals who I'll let them tell you a little bit about themselves, but they are all high school graduates.

They are in the higher ed pipeline.

Some of them are in grad school.

Some of them are about to get a PhD.

So they are varying experiences in terms of where they are in the educational pipeline.

But we are super excited to be able to ask these three.

Well, they're young compared to me, these three young people some really powerful questions about what they experience in education.

And I know that Kathy and Michael and Alicia are as excited as I am to welcome them to the wheelhouse space.

So one at a time, let me welcome them.

And ladies first.

Carrie Brown, welcome to the Wheelhouse.

Thank you for having me.

My name, of course you said is Carrie Elizabeth Brown.

I'm currently finishing my master's program in counseling and educational settings at Rowan University.

And I am a path coach at the center for Neurodiversity on Rowan's campus.

I work with students who, who both who I work with them academically and help them with their personal challenges.

I'm also a mom.

I have a son.

He's one of my biggest motivations for me to continue my education.

And it's given me a deeper passion for making sure students feel seen, supported and capable of succeeding.

I'm really excited to be here and thank you.

We're really, really excited for you to be here.

Carrie.

Jamar Green from I believe you are at the University of Kentucky now, if I remember correctly.

Tell us first.

Welcome to the Wheelhouse and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Thank you for having me.

My name is Jamar Green and yes, I am a first year doctoral student in the Studies in Higher Education PhD program at the University of Kentucky.

I am also a Rowan double alum, where I received my bachelor's and my master's.

And I am also the recipient of the prestigious Lyman T. Johnson Fellowship.

Well, congratulations.

We are honored to have you here as well.

And last but not least, please welcome Christian Langston to the Wheelhouse.

Christian, Good morning, sir.

Good morning.

Thank you guys for having me.

It's a blessing.

I appreciate it.

I'm Christian Langson, and I am pursuing my bachelor's in computer science over at Rowan University.

I don't have too many clubs or anything like that.

I kind of just go to school and come back home.

I used to run track in high school.

I have a little bit of accolades in there, but overall, I'm kind of just a regular student over at Rowan University and pursuing computer science.

I heard you were quite the athlete.

Is that true?

I wouldn't brag too much about myself.

I'd like to put it all up to God, be honest with you.

Well, I heard you were quite talented, so I will sing your athletic praises as well.

So, Christian, Carrie, and Jamar, thank you so much for joining us here in the Wheelhouse today.

We're looking forward to this conversation.

And because it's so important, I'm going to jump right in.

I'm going to ask you the first question and I'll just kind of.

You can either jump in or we'll pick on somebody to answer it.

And of course, Michael, Kathy, and Alicia will continue to explore and probe with me.

When you think back, it's your entire educational experience from kindergarten all the way to where you are now.

When you think back on that educational experience, what is one moment that really stands out to you that really shapes how you see school?

I guess I can answer that.

The one experience I would say was in Dr. Monroe's class that I had with her, Black Lives Matter, the ethnographic perspective of the movement.

That first day in class, she didn't do the typical introduction in class.

She had us talk about our name and what we thought our name meant.

And me, I said it was a basic black name, and she ate me up about it because of her experiences with her name, how it's spelled and how it's really pronounced.

And I was so grateful for that because it gave me the perspective.

Like your name, it matters because it's part of your identity.

So I was truly grateful for that experience.

Was that the first time that someone had talked to you about your Name in an educational environment.

Yes.

And you were how old when you had that class?

I think I was 20, maybe 21.

Because it was the fall of my.

Yeah, I was actually 21.

It was the fall of my senior year.

Christian, what about you?

What is one experience, K through wherever you are now, K. That really shapes how you see school?

If I'm being honest, I wouldn't say one particular moment.

I would say in general, throughout high school, I noticed that I was always.

I wasn't the brightest person or I wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

So I. I believe, really realizing that and, you know, admitting to it, you.

You could potentially end up being the sharpest tool in the shed.

What I mean by that is like, you know, just applying yourself and, you know, taking.

Yeah, taking.

Taking all that into consideration, you know, applying yourself into school.

You could, you know, you could end up being one of the.

One of the brighter kids in.

In the class.

I just, you know, I just never thought that about myself, but eventually, I eventually began to get more A's and, you know, stuff like that.

We're going to explore that in a few minutes as well.

That.

That dynamic.

I was going to ask a question, but go ahead.

We can.

Okay.

So, Christian, when you.

When you say that and that you.

That came with.

With maturity, what did.

What did that look like for the adults along the way?

How.

How did that shape.

Whether it's positive or a negative way, when you think about the educators and that, you know, just feeling and mindset that you had about yourself, because obviously you weren't.

You didn't.

You weren't born thinking, well, I'm not the sharpest tool in the.

In the shed.

So what did.

How did that come to be in.

In the educational space?

Yeah, I was never really the happiest person in the world, but overall, with great support from my mom, my dad, and of course, my aunt, you know, it.

It does a lot for somebody.

Just.

Just a simple, I'm proud of you or you're doing great.

It could really move.

It could make somebody's day.

You know, even for a kid that's, you know, going through high school, because high school is a complete change in.

In education, in an educational environment.

So, you know, I had a lot of support from my teachers and, you know, especially coaches.

Coaches were always on me about making sure that I was going to, if I needed it, some type of someone to talk to or, you know, just, you know, making sure that I'm staying up on my work because I know how it can get.

It can be draining when you're going through it mentally.

Carrie, was there a moment for you when that comes to mind that really shapes how you see school?

Yes, I'm going to say elementary school and I was in the third grade and I have cerebral palsy.

I am very blunt and honest about my condition.

So I have cerebral palsy.

So I used to wear a leg brace and it takes time for me to walk to certain places.

So I went to my one class and my teacher said, what, are you crippled or something?

And from that point on, I automatically had to overindulge the reason why I am the way I am.

And I felt like I had to over apologize for certain things that were out of my control.

So going forward from like middle school to high school, even in my.

Because I'm a. I will be a double alum at Rowan when I graduate in May, even in my Rowan history of me being here, I feel like I had to overindulge and just apologize for everything.

So that shaped me and it just made me realize that I don't want the reason why I'm in the field that I'm in.

I want.

I don't want other students or kids to feel how I felt, like I wasn't good enough because I wasn't able bodied or I needed extra time on tests.

So I kind of agree and understand where Christian is coming from because when somebody instills that negativity, it stays in your mind forever.

So, Carrie, thank you for sharing that.

I mean, I'm enraged.

I'm enraged to hear that as you think, you know, as an adult.

As an adult now thinking back upon that third grade experience.

And that leads me into another question.

It's just right here.

Right.

So what would carry the adult now today, like to say to the third grade teacher who made you feel like you were less worthy?

If I wasn't saved, I would have cursed her out.

I'm just being honest.

But.

But the, the same.

What would you like her to learn?

Right.

Understandably, somebody.

Yes.

Yes.

Being somebody's mother now I would just be like, thank you for putting your negativity on me because it pushed me to do greater things.

You know, I've overcame so much.

I, you know, got my associates, I got my bachelor's, I'm working towards my master's with having a two year old, that's a lot.

That is a lot.

So crippled or not, I pushed my way through.

Thank you.

Well said.

It takes a lot of character for someone to, for you to be able to say that.

Right.

Because I would have joined you in the cursing part.

Right.

I would have had something negative to say there.

Whoa.

Right.

Yes.

So kind of capitalizing on that whole idea that Carrie has mentioned.

Were there Jamar and Christian, were there moments when you felt disconnected from this whole school experience, somewhere in your school experience, and if so, why and where?

I guess for me there probably was definitely multiple times throughout my P12 schooling, but especially in higher ed.

Me, I went to my high school and stuff.

It was very mixed.

So coming to Rowan, it was a culture shock.

A predominantly white institution.

I'm a first generation college student, so I didn't have the stepping stones or know how to navigate a college campus.

Especially Rowan.

It seems small, but Rowan is pretty big.

And being a law and justice major, walking in a classroom where you're most likely going to be the only black student, it was very overwhelming.

And a lot of times I did feel like I wasn't being seen in class.

I felt disconnected from my white counterparts and it led to me joining clubs and organizations because I had to find my community.

I had to find the people who were going to support me.

And if it wasn't for that, I don't think I'd be where I am now.

Christian, was there a moment where you just felt disconnected?

If I'm being completely honest, I'd probably say, like.

Cause I'm still a sophomore in college.

I haven't really gotten the whole experience with college just yet, but just from my experience alone right now, I can.

I could definitely tell that there are.

There are some places where you can feel disconnected.

For example, like there are.

There's a lot of people, there's a lot of kids that, you know, they won't really engage or they won't.

Like, they won't be on the.

Our society is more captivated with being on their phone.

So it's not like people will ever really come up to you anymore.

It's just like it's kind of either, you know, you already got that little.

You got.

You already got a little friend group or whatever.

And if I.

If I had to say disconnected,

I

don't know if I really ever felt disconnected from school.

I'd kind of say I'm just.

That's just who I really am.

I've always felt like I was disconnected from in general, but I still, I still.

I don't know, I still get my work done and stuff, but I've never really had that.

I never really had that pure connection to school.

If you don't understand what I'm saying.

So you're slightly distanced from the experience, even though you're engaging and doing what you're doing.

Yeah.

So I think I want to do some level setting before we move in.

We're sitting with three students of color, and not that that shifts the atmosphere a bit, but words like invisibility, mediocrity, less than not mattering, things like that.

Maybe what we should introduce into the conversation because I think that there is more of an identity with that than us moving slowly towards the fact that we're thinking about a humanizing approach to education.

What is dignity for them?

What is respect?

When I hear Carrie Elizabeth Brown talk about a teacher saying or connoting that she was crippled because she had.

I know that our listeners want to hear more about that level of experience because I think those are the stories that are not being told in our schools.

And if we're segueing from the last conversations we had around invisibility, I think we may want to focus more in that space because we do have a subgroup represented here that we could really get some rich conversation from.

I guess I would say being seen, it means a lot, especially when you're a student of color.

I feel like my experiences at Rowan and meeting the people that I did meet from administration down to like faculty and staff, it has gotten me to this point because it's a support system.

Like that's all students need, all students want is support.

And everybody wants to be seen or like heard.

And as students in college, a lot of time fear.

Fear stops students from doing a lot.

And I feel like if just anybody who comes encounter with students, if you give them grace and give yourself grace as an educator, I feel like things would just be different.

And I know that's like a work in progress because Rome wasn't built in a day.

So it's just a lot of learning on both ends, on the students end and.

And even people who come encounter with students.

So let's explore those words.

Seen and heard.

How do you know what does it feel like when you are seen and heard?

I guess for me, being seen, it's.

It's just people acknowledging.

I'm trying to.

Just acknowledging certain things.

Even a lot of time, like being at a pwi experienced a lot of microaggressions.

And there's been cases where my white counterparts, they acknowledge, oh, I just did a microaggression, I'm sorry, I apologize for that.

And they're open minded.

They want to learn how can I fix this.

What do I need to do on my part to change this so I can help others not do it?

And I learned in Dr. Monroe's class there's a difference between an ally and authentic ally.

And ever since she told me that, it stuck.

And as I've navigated throughout my higher education career, from bachelor's to now, my doctoral program, it's easy to, like, pinpoint who those authentic allies are, because they want to learn, they want to change, not just for themselves, but help others change.

And they're going to stick there throughout the hard times, no matter what's going on.

But that regular ally, when the going gets tough, they going.

They're going to hit the road.

Christian, what does it mean to be seen and heard?

For me, you know, like Jamar said, just, you know, I guess I'll go based off heard.

You know, coming from a background of.

I don't.

I'm not sure if you guys are aware of Delsey.

Do you know where Delsey is in Franklinville?

No.

Well,

It's more of a white background school.

Not to offend anybody, but as a black or an African American teenager, I was going there, and again, I said I had support and stuff like that.

I believe feeling heard is more of, you know, taking your time out and just, you know, just giving your ear to somebody and just having that.

Just having, you know, just a little conversation with somebody or, you know, just, you know, acknowledging someone's existence and not putting aside that they may be going through something or, you know, they may be feeling left out because, you know, they're not around people of, you know, their, you know, their color and stuff like that.

So, you know, in general, just feeling heard, just, you know, acknowledging someone exists.

And, you know, don't try to ignore them or anything like that.

It just makes it worse.

And I'm going to argue that should.

That's seemingly a very low bar, right?

Because we should expect.

We should expect coming to school, Whether it's coming K12, higher ed, we should expect to be seen and heard.

That should be right.

That should be an expectation that we have as students, as teachers, as leaders, that we come into a space where we're seen and heard.

So let's talk about education for a few minutes.

You are consumers, right?

You were invited here because you have a voice.

You were invited here because we wanted you to be seen.

And we're honored to have you here, all three of you.

It's a privilege.

But this podcast is about changing the educational landscape, right?

It's about engaging with Students and teachers and leaders and everybody and parents and families and community and everybody to change what each student experiences on a daily basis for the better.

For the better, Right?

That goes without saying.

Right?

So if you think about this thing, this big thing called the education K12, higher ed, wherever your thoughts land.

But if you could change something, redesign something about school, you had the power to change it for future students.

What would you change?

What would you change for future generations of students who are like you and who are not like you?

Access to administration.

Because administrators, they're leading the school, they're leading the district.

And everything comes from the top to the bottom.

And if administrators would just give teachers and professors grace and not scare them in the way of, like, deviating from the written agenda.

Because sometimes teachers, yeah, they have their set curriculum and things like that, but every classroom is different.

The curriculum that's written across the board is not going to work for that one classroom.

Some teachers know their classrooms better than the administrators.

Sometimes they have to.

They'll be like, oh, this is not going to work for my class.

I need to deviate this little situation in to better help my students.

Not just the white students, but even the students of color.

I'm going to do this instead of doing what the administration said.

But a lot of teachers and faculty, they're scared because they need their job.

So I feel like empathy on that end too.

Empathy for the teachers from administration.

So that's what I'll say.

I have a comment, but I'm going to hold it for just a moment and Christian, and then I will come back to my comment.

Jamar.

Christian, what would you change if you

could, if I could change anything, I'd probably say let students be heard a little bit more and maybe improving counseling over in schools.

Because there's a lot of kids going through mental health and they, they try to put it off to the side like Ms. Carrie said and stuff.

Mental health is.

Mental health is real.

And when you're trying to prioritize school over your own health, it.

It can really drain.

It can really drain you.

And, and again, I mean, so this

is to my listeners, right?

To our listeners, this is an unscripted.

An unscripted po.

We did not plan this.

But what you're hearing, right, what you're hearing is Christian, Carrie and Jamar all talking about the need not to feel herded, right?

This is about being able to jump away from, jump away from the pacing guide and this transactional hurting nature of school.

That's what we call it, right?

That's what we've been talking about for seasons.

Right.

And yet what without, you know, without mentioning that all three of them said stop.

Right, Stop.

Can we please just pause some, you know, and acknowledge that we are human beings with lives, with needs, with mental health needs, with physical needs, with social needs, with, you know, whatever.

We need to be seen, we need to be heard.

We need time.

I mean, you know, wow, right?

You've all said it in beautiful ways, Right.

And it is students who are also telling us what the negative impact is of all of this transactional, hurting nature of schooling, whether that is in K12 or higher ed.

As we bring this conversation to a close, I have one last question that I'd like each of you to address, if you would.

Many of our listeners, not all, but many of our listeners are teachers.

Teachers in higher ed.

Teachers in K12.

If you could speak directly to them, which you can, because we're going to give you the microphone in just a moment.

Right.

What's a message you have for teachers who may be listening to this podcast?

Jamar, I'll say thank you because being an educator is not an easy job and it's not something that you just think about, oh, I want to go into this field.

Educators, if you're in education, you're born to be in education, you were made to be in education because that's a different type of leadership, especially those in K12.

You're laying the foundation.

You're building those students up.

If they plan on going into higher education, you're preparing them for that, but you're preparing them for the world.

So I just say thank you and don't forget to give yourself grace.

Oh, I'm just going to repeat that your presence goes beyond academics.

Christian, what would you like to say to teachers listening to this podcast again?

Follow up with Jamar and miss Elizabeth.

Thank you.

Some teachers, believe it or not, they may not know it.

The.

They could be a kid's best friend or kid's first best friend and stuff like that.

So, you know, taking the time out again, I know I'm repetitive, but taking the time out to actually listen to the child and, you know, and hearing them out, because it might not be the, you know, the best place at home for that child because, you know, some, every, every household is different.

Every household is, you know, every household is, every child is brought up differently from, you know, the next kid next door.

So

just realizing that they play such a huge part when it comes to a child becoming a grown up and getting ready to explore the world, you know, thank you.

Thank you for the support.

And again, like they said, give yourself some grace.

So I'm going to ask the Wheelhouse team a question right?

Just they've been listening to and Christian and Carrie, Elizabeth and Jamar, thank you so much.

And we're so thrilled that you are here.

Kathy, what'd you hear today?

I heard from three beautiful, brilliant humans that there's just such a need for the humanization of schools.

I heard that we need to be heard and not be herded in the world of education and their presence.

Educator.

Presence matters.

Michael, what'd you hear?

I heard so many things that were very powerful and affirming.

And I want to respond this moment as an educator who happens to be white.

It affirms for me again the importance of earning trust, taking time to listen and then to stand with the young learner I'm privileged to work with and in a timely moment, push that individual to begin seeing what I see, believing what I have evidence to believe.

And I heard it in each separate case, whether it was in high school with you, Christian, where people leaned in because they felt like you could do with the shoulder to lean against, to shore you up in moments where, you know, you were feeling down and disconnected.

And the difference that made Carrie, you know, your story is filled with so many extraordinary achievements, and yet it's possible for somebody so accomplished to not regard herself that way until somebody takes that time to say, you do have this, you've got this, and you can do it.

And now you're a person who is ready to give back in just as powerful and even more powerful ways.

And Jamar, when you explain your name as an ordinary black name, and you have a Dr. Munro push you on that, and there is nothing ordinary, nothing ordinary about you, not your name, not your being, not your potential, your talent, nothing.

It affirms for me the important role we as educators have.

And Jamar, you said it so well that when we as educators, especially those of us who are white educators, give ourselves grace, that when we stumble, we will get back on our feet.

We will know better so that we can do better.

And that's the process.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you so much to all three of you.

Alicia, what'd you hear?

So first, I want to thank Kathy, Michael, and Grant for the eloquent conversations along with Jamar, Christian and Carrie.

I was listening more and taking it in because the conversation was so intriguing and the dialogue was so dynamic.

So what did I hear?

I heard a lot, Grant.

So thank you for asking me that.

But most importantly, what I saw was I saw as Christian, Jamar and Carrie articulated their stories.

I saw them moving from agency to efficacy and now into a self authorship stage, which is developmentally correct.

But along the way, they needed support, they needed authentic allies, right?

And what really closed the definite gap for each and every one of them was love.

So I go back to the conversation on what is love, right?

And it's not.

It's not that intimate love, right?

It's that agape love, right?

That love that you know when you come up next to someone and you really know them enough to support them.

It has been my privilege to be in that space with Jamar, Christian and Carrie because I know them very well.

But it's that question of, do you see me, do you hear me and do I matter to you?

Each one of them has their own story of mattering Christian, whether that's him moving from a question of his own academic acumen to being a scholar athlete, which he nicely downplays because he's humble, right?

But really balancing the rigorous schedule of several track meets within a month, being an Olympic hopeful and moving forward, right?

And then Carrie from defining herself through the lens of a third grade teacher, as quote, unquote.

And it's hard for me to say it because it's nauseating, right?

Crippled to now being a mom that will again graduate with honors soon with a master's degree.

To Jamar, right, Who has so many beautiful identities that was not revealed during this conversation to having him feel so comfortable with himself, to take his studies of diversity and inclusion and organizational leadership into a space where it may be uncomfortable and unsettling and still feeling bold and courageous.

So I heard a lot because each and every one of these students were touched by us as educators, but we were either, in their eyes, dream killers or we cultivated hope.

So I always ask the charge for our educators, which side of the rope do you want to be on?

Do you want to be on the tug of war side being a dream killer, or do you want to win the race on being a cultivator of hope?

And as we wrap up this episode, again, I want to say thank you to Christian Langston, Carrie Elizabeth Brown and Jamar Green for joining us today.

Really, really appreciate this conversation, Right?

But what they articulate for me, besides all of that other stuff that everybody has just said, is the incredible difference between being heard and what it feels like to be herded, right?

They are, in their own very kind way, right?

In their own very kind way, they are demanding that we disrupt that transactional nature of school.

Right.

They are demanding that our schools become a place where humanity is celebrated.

So thank you again.

Thank you, Christian.

Thank you, Carrie Elizabeth.

Thank you, Jamar.

Thank you, Wheelhouse Team.

We'll see you next week in the Wheelhouse.

That's a wrap of Episode four.

We had some technical difficulties capturing Carrie's voice, and so we'll be asking her to return to the Wheelhouse in a future episode so we can rerecord some of her brilliant comments that you missed in today's episode.

What stands out to me after this conversation, though, is how clearly students experience the difference between a system that functions and a system that actually cares.

They know when school is coherent, they know when adults are paying attention, and they definitely know when we confuse compliance with connection.

If this season is really about future ready schools, then this conversation gives us an important reminder.

The future is not something we build apart from students.

It's something we build with a much deeper understanding of their lived experience.

That means listening more carefully, designing more honestly, and making sure the systems we create don't just work on paper, but work in the lives of actual young people.

I'm grateful to our guests for their openness, honesty, and insight.

Their stories are exactly the kind of mirror education needs.

Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Wheelhouse.

If this conversation stayed with you, share it with a colleague, your leadership team, or someone working to build schools where students are truly seen, heard, and prepared for the road ahead.

Until next time, stay ready, stay human, and keep building schools that students can actually recognize as designed for them.