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Rich Chance talks about negotiating techniques, following his own lead and getting the right kind of therapy
Episode 33 • 17th September 2024 • The Music Room • The Sound Boutique
00:00:00 00:37:12

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Personal stories of inspiration from music industry professionals.

In this episode, Gareth chats with composer, songwriter and musician Rich Chance about negotiating techniques, following his own lead and getting the right kind of therapy.

Host: Gareth Davies

Produced by The Sound Boutique

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Transcripts

Speaker:

Gareth (3): Welcome to the music room.

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This time in the music room.

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Rich Chance: I was sort of transfixed

by that on vinyl very early on,

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and the fact that my dad was on the

cover, it's almost set, set things

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in motion in a, in a, you know, sort

of hero's journey sort of fashion.

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It's like, well, your father is on

the cover of this record, therefore

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you must be on the cover of a record,.

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Gareth (2): Hello, and welcome to the

Music Room, the show for music creators,

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where I chat with guests working in the

music industry to find out more about

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them and their beginnings in music.

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And stick around

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as I ask all of my guests to leave an

item and a piece of advice in the Music

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Room for you to find, what could they be?

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Anyway.

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Today's guest is composer,

songwriter and musician, Rich

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Chance who has new music out.

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Rich will be talking about the twists

and turns of his career and the

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effects those twists and turns and

social media had on his mental health.

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I've popped links to Rich's

stuff in the show notes.

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So I urge you to go and take a listen,

follow his updates on the socials.

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He's such a nice guy.

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And he and I have been trying to get

coffee in the diary most of this year.

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So when we finally met albeit

virtually, I thought it would

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be a good idea to hit record.

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By the way talking of links, you

can find all the links to everything

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Music Room at musicroom.community.

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That includes things like the podcast

website with all the podcast apps;

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ways to support the show with a

one-off tip; the newsletter; the lovely

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Facebook group; Instagram; merch.

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Yes merch go and take a look.

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Uh, and there's a link for me

there too, as I do all this myself

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and also for other podcasts.

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So there are links to my stuff

to at musicroom.community.

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And thank you for listening.

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It would be a bit pointless making

this show if no one listened to it.

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So thank you for keeping

this train on the tracks.

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I really do appreciate it.

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Right before we head into the

music room to chat with Rich

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here are some music stories.

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From moviemaker.com composer and

Music Room guest Segun Akinola had

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never heard the story of Milli Vanilli

when he was approached to score

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the biopic Girl You Know It's True.

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He was too young to remember how...

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hang on, feeling old.

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Uh, in the late eighties two exceptionally

good looking dancer models, named Fab

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Morvan and Rob Pilatus were recruited

by German dance producer, Frank

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Farian to lip-sync others' music and

become an international pop sensation.

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Girl You Know It's True named for their

irresistible breakthrough hit is the

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story of how Rob and Fab made their

faustian bargain and how it all fell apart

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when they refused to lip sync anymore.

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The film from director Simon Verhoeven

is the first major successful attempt

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to tell the story on screen and

follow stalled efforts by the likes

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of Rush Hour director, Brett Ratner.

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Uh, now I don't know if you follow

another Music Room guest, composer

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David Lowe on the socials, but

he's been posting behind the scenes

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walkthroughs of his famous works.

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Uh, if you've heard his Music Room

episode you'll know that David

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is responsible for the BBC news

theme, the One Show, Countryfile,

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Grand Designs and so much more.

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If you're on Instagram,

he's davidlowemusic,

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that's a Lowe with an E on the end.

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Uh, So check that out.

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And if you haven't heard his Music

Room episode, put that in your queue.

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It's a great listen, and David

is a wise and generous guest.

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And those are the music stories.

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Born into a musical family, Rich Chance

learned the tools of the trade and the

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family business, before moving into a

career of composing for TV and film.

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Credits include Agatha Raisin,

Absolutely Champers, The Warren:

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Breakers Law, Jennifer Saunders:

Back in the Saddle and loads more.

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After a more recent downturn in work

opportunities and a spell in therapy,

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Rich is back with fantastic new music.

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The link for which is in the show notes.

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Without further ado, let's get into the

Music Room to hear from the man himself.

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Gareth: Rich Chance, composer, songwriter,

musician: welcome to the music room

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Rich Chance: And creative hack.

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Thank you very

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Gareth: to lead with that, but you know,

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Rich Chance: Pleasure to see you,

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Gareth: how are you today?

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Rich Chance: Yeah, I'm doing good.

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It's, uh, you know, we've got the

sun is shining up here in Preston,

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which is usually rainy Preston.

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So that's, uh, that's one thing

that's different and I'm feeling good.

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I'm very nervous about being on this show

because I listen to this show and, uh, as

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I was just saying, while we were chatting,

it's sort of like, ASMR for musicians.

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It's that sort of calming, you can lean

in and get the information or you can

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lean back and just have the pleasant noise

sort of go, you know, drift over you and,

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and just, so, you know, it sort of feels

like I'm on a, I'm on some sort of famous

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TV show as we, you know, when we were

growing up, so thank you for having me.

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Gareth: yeah, hopefully it will turn

out to be just a nice chat that people

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can take things from if they want.

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Rich Chance: Well, you've been very

calming and, uh, you've already done the

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neural linguistic programming on me to

calm me down before we came on the air.

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So,

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Gareth: can I add that to my CV?

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Rich Chance: yes, absolutely.

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NLP expert.

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Gareth: All right.

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so Rich, if you'll allow, I

want to read your Facebook post

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to promote your new single.

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Um, because I think it's

important for people to hear.

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So it reads, I thought I'd

never play another song of mine

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to another person last year.

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I was broke, creatively washed

out, scared to express myself and

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a shadow of who I am right now.

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I'm still broke, but I'm alive in

all the ways I'd ever want to be.

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Wherever you are on your creative journey,

listen to the voice that guides you

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towards the light and pushes you forward.

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I think that's just such a beautiful

statement and tells us a lot about

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how important this is to you.

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Rich Chance: Right.

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It's fantastic.

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I mean, I don't know who came up with

those words, but I wish I was that guy.

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Um, you know, I think, um, It's this,

this career and mine has been quite sort

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of, uh, it's taken lots of interesting

twists and turns over the years, but,

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uh, I think we spend a lot of time being

people pleasers and especially when you

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work in, I don't know what we call it

these days, but applied music for, you

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know, film scores and television music

and library music and that sort of thing,

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where you sort of honed your craft to

a degree so that you're able to deliver

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quite high quality music quite quickly.

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Uh, and you're almost always doing it at

the behest of somebody else, and you are

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almost always going to get a few rounds

of notes and a few corrections on your

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creative process, and you know, I think

there's a, there's a lot of shame around

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feeling, uh, hurt by those notes, or

feeling insulted by the idea that, you

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know, your, your music is going to get

corrected, but At the heart of us all,

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we're all approval seekers, you know, and

we go into this and we thought somebody

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gives us a piece of film without any music

on it or maybe they give us an idea of

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the sort of music they want us to create.

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And I think the first place that we

go is into the ethereal and into the

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very personal to try and drag that out.

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You know, we might talk a good game as,

as sort of tough composers that know

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that we're basically just, it's craft,

craft, craft, none of it's art, you know.

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But you do go and visit that little

place inside yourself where you're

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still a child and you're still, you

know, you're still trying to sort of

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catch things from your subconscious and

the ether to try and create something

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that's, that makes you feel great.

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And so then you have to immediately steal

yourself for delivering that to somebody

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that is going to see it objectively and

go, Yeah, can you make it more pink?

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I mean, you know,

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Gareth: in this case where you're

creating songs for your listeners, your

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audience, it's not a commissioned thing.

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know, You're not getting

notes back from a label.

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Joker Like Me, I might have

to call it, might be one of

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my favourite tracks this year

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Rich Chance: oh, thank you so much

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Gareth: And part of that is, it

was clearly a song that is personal

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to you and written from the heart.

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And, uh, it really shows.

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And I think those kinds of songs really do

show you can kind of immediately sense the

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honesty can't you, from things like that

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Rich Chance: Thank you.

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I didn't quite realise that it was

going to have that impact with,

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with people around me when I wrote

it and I wrote it very quickly.

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I can't say that about some of my

other stuff, you know, there's some

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of it, you know, you can might call

it contrived, you might say it's, uh,

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just it's the particular style, but

yeah, that, that one sort of came out

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in one writing session and was brutally

honest and sort of wrote itself, which

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I know we hear a lot of writers say

that about, about good stuff, don't we?

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Um, but it's true and, I suppose

I've reached a place where I went away

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from social media for a few years.

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I went through, quite a

significant period of unemployment

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and not having any money.

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We have a neurodivergent household

and we home educate my son and my wife

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was doing a degree and we just hit a

very difficult patch in life where,

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you know, it felt like we couldn't

quite get out of the hole we were in.

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Um, happy and a loving

household, but, but still that.

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You know, that sort of cloud

hanging over your head of, is

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anyone ever going to hire me again?

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You know, and because I'm sort of socially

awkward and not somebody that enjoys

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networking and also living in the North.

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So a lot of the networking

stuff was sort of happening in

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London and that kind of thing.

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I also wasn't really able

to mobilise to change that.

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So I sort of felt myself disappearing

from the career as a, as a

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film composer and TV composer.

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And so that obviously had an

effect on my mental health.

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And I withdrew from social media to

kind of help that really, because as

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we're all very aware, the comparisons

are there daily of people sort of

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filtering their lives in a way that

says, Hey, I'm doing this new film.

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I'm in Abbey Road.

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I'm doing this.

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And I don't, I don't decry people

wanting to celebrate their achievements.

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I think it's a great thing.

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And really, it comes down to your

own personal filter with that stuff.

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If you are predisposed to immediately

compare yourself to others in that

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situation, then, I mean, which I was,

then it started to make me feel terrible,

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really, you know, because I thought,

well, they're doing that, and I'm not

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doing anything, and I can't change that,

you know, so, so I went away and didn't

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really go away to go and live in a cave

or walk through the woods and pluck

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out some amazing songs or anything, I

just, I just sort of thought, well, I

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can't fix this, I can't control it, so

I'm just going to go away, you know.

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and so that and I also went into therapy.

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I've been in therapy before for

various reasons because I've I

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used to run a family business and

it was a big theatre show give

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Gareth: Oh, Oh, we're

going to get into that.

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Rich Chance: Yeah.

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right?

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Yeah.

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But but for the sort of for the present

day, I found a really great therapist

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by by virtue of the fact that Leanne,

my wife was studying psychotherapy and

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she sort of had some great leads on

the sort of therapist I should go for.

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Gareth: So what

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Rich Chance: And so,

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Gareth: the therapy?

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Rich Chance: um, it was this time

around, it was more of a self development

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mission than in previous cases where

it's been, um, perhaps because my

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mental health was poor at that time.

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You know, so, and, and there's

been, I've had a few misses with it.

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I mean, if you go on the NHS and you

feel depressed and anxious, they're going

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to tend to send you for CBT therapy.

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And I've got, you know, I'm

not a psychotherapy expert and

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I'm not going to broadcast.

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You know, all, all opinions are

held by the, uh, by the songwriter,

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composer, creative hack alone.

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But, um, it's more of a, it's more of a

quick fix than getting to root causes.

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And so this time around, I

went more into my childhood.

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I went more into trauma and shame

and all these kinds of themes.

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Um, and by the end of that process,

which was about eight months, I, I

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sort of felt like a different person.

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And I felt like I sort of felt

less of a need to people please.

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And I felt sort of more like, the

fear of failure, the volume on

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that had just really turned down.

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I sort of thought, well, what, you

know, what am I actually afraid

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Gareth: That's a really.

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really good way of putting it.

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The volume of failure was turned down.

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I love that

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Rich Chance: Well, yeah, because

it never, it never sort of

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disappears from your mind.

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But, you know, when you really break

it down, a lot of the people, a lot

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of the sort of supposed critics that

you're worried about, they're not in

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your life on a day to day basis anyway,

they're these imagined sort of dragons,

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that are, you know, there might be that

you've worked with someone who's quite

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judgmental or quite outspoken about

the stuff that other people are doing.

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Oh, what are they doing that for?

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Why are they releasing songs

and putting clown makeup on?

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What an idiot.

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You know, so I think what happens

is you sort of build this, this

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wall around yourself and you start

judging everything around you.

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Oh, goodness me, I couldn't possibly

make a fool of myself in that way.

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I must, I must stay within the confines

of what everybody expects from me.

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But those imagined ghosts and dragons

and monsters, whatever you want

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to call them, they're not showing

up for you when you need them.

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They're only showing up for you when

you fear them, you know, and so, so I

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sort of, in the end, if I'm absolutely

honest, I've done a few of the videos and

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written a few songs and I had the plan

for the album and I was still bottling

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it a little bit, I wasn't, I wasn't able

to sort of make the step to go, I'm going

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to post this and, you know, and I, you

know, I think it might have been my wife

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or somebody close to me just said, you're

just going to have to put it out there.

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Just do it.

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Just press the button

and put it out there.

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And ever since then, it's sort of

like the taps have been on and I

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can't stop making an idiot of myself.

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I'm quite enjoying it.

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I don't know if that, I'm actually

not sure I've answered your question.

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That was quite a

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long, uh, long answer.

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Gareth: that's bang on.

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And, uh, I think you hit on something

that affects any music creator,

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which is, is it ever good enough?

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What are people going to

think of me and all that?

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And, uh, Yeah.

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If there's a way of turning the volume

down on that, then, um, I think people

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would be more bold, more confident to

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Rich Chance: Yeah, I mean, I think, you

know, we may touch on neurodivergence

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and I think that it probably exists,

you know, in certainly in many people

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in the arts, because we see evidence of

the hyperfocus and the magic that comes

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from it, um, but there's definitely a

component of, overthinking the, the

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sort of results and the consequences

of showing people the results.

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So, uh, you know, I mean, clear examples

are, you know, you won't let go of the

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mix because it's never good enough.

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You know, you say, oh god, suddenly

those dragons come back and they're

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like, somebody's going to hear that

bass and they're going to realise

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I haven't properly controlled

the subsonic frequencies and, you

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know, whatever it might be, and

actually letting go of that stuff

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is, is not a musical process at all.

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It's a, it's an emotional process.

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And it, you know, uh, what helps me,

what's kind of a positive trigger for

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me is I sort of think, well, I think

I'm bang average anyway, so somebody,

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and somebody out there is not going

to think this is good enough anyway.

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But what do I think?

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And who am I now?

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Let's meet me where I am now and let's

go, well, actually, no, that's the best

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that I could have made that right now.

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So I'm going to put that out.

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And that goes for my writing, my mixing,

the mastering of the tracks, the videos.

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The way I might look

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Gareth: And actually that's

only half of it, isn't it?

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Because you're talking about the technical

stuff because music is subjective.

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So, you know, the other half

you have no control over anyway.

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Rich Chance: Exactly.

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I, I already know that at least 50

percent of the population don't like

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what I'm doing right now and I may

never meet them and that would be great,

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Gareth: But it's not

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Rich Chance: you know, so

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Gareth: it?

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Rich Chance: no, no it's really not.

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It's not on all of the all

of the attention and the

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let's couch it a little bit.

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I'm, I'm, I've not become a rock star

overnight, but the, the traction I'm

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receiving and the nice comments that

people are making about my music,

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it's all really, really lovely.

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And I'm very, very grateful for it.

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I also am pleased to report that

I don't need it to continue.

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Gareth: Hey.

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Rich Chance: I am doing it for myself, uh,

and that can possibly sound pretentious,

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you know, but it is where I'm at.

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And I think maybe that is what's

resonating the most is that I'm

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not trying to And you can't please

everyone, and if you try and please

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everyone, I'm not even sure that

anyone would want to listen to that.

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What is that?

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That's some sort of Frankenstein

music, isn't it, that nobody

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Gareth: But then it's, it's, I

mean, it could be part of the

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Alanis Morissette song, couldn't it?

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If you try to please your audience.

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You it's going to make

you less likable a moment.

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You stop caring and just

do what you want to do.

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it immediately makes you

more likable and relatable.

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I think

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Rich Chance: I hope so, yeah.

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I mean, I think I'm trying to

please everyone on this podcast

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by speaking fast at the moment.

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Ha ha ha ha ha!

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Nerves!

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Ha ha ha ha!

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Gareth: They're just listeners.

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They don't, I'm sorry listeners.

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I didn't mean that.

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Rich Chance: You're not just listeners!

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Ha ha ha ha!

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Gareth: Friends of the show.

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Let's call them that.

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So let's talk about the actual

music, uh, because you've

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released, is it four tracks so far,

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Rich Chance: Yeah, I released

Picture Show in June, and then

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after that was Azalea Close.

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Uh, that was in July.

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And then you get in the

theme here in August.

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I released a song called Schlong.

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I'm not coming out.

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All right.

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To say that on here, maybe won't tell

everybody what that's about, but it

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was a slightly politically skewed, um,

track and then the latest one Joker

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Like Me, which is the one that you've,

you've just been referring to yet.

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Gareth: So you're releasing an album.

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You've mentioned these are

the singles from the album.

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Are you going to keep releasing

every month or is there a,

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Rich Chance: until I've,

until I've completely

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spoiled the album.

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Gareth: Well, you know, it's,

there aren't any rules when you're

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doing it yourself, are there?

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So you could release a single every

month until it's an album and then

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release the album if you wanted.

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Rich Chance: Well, to be honest with

you, I had sort of thought about not

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releasing an album and just releasing

a track a month for the rest of my

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life because I've got so much material

that I could probably finish off.

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And there's a great artist out

there, if you've not checked

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him out, called Bill Wurtz.

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That's spelled W U R T Z.

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And he, I don't think he's ever released

an album, everything he's done has

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just been a single song with a video.

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And he's an absolute hero of mine.

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:

He's somewhere between Beck and Steely

Dan and just, he just blows me away.

364

:

So I'd sort of thought

about doing it that way.

365

:

And then I don't know, maybe

it's my age, you know, I'm 45.

366

:

I can still remember the smell

of vinyl and all the rest of

367

:

it from the first time around.

368

:

Um, so, you know, I think I've sort

of fallen into my own nostalgic

369

:

trap of saying, well, you know,

let's, let's, let's make an album.

370

:

But I suppose one upside of it is

it can sort of be a document of

371

:

where I was musically this year

and I could box it off and move on

372

:

Gareth: yes, absolutely.

373

:

And that comes with its own

narrative really, doesn't it?

374

:

Because you're in a certain frame

of mind at a certain space in time.

375

:

So it's kind of a timestamp.

376

:

Rich Chance: it is and it sort

of gives you permission to change

377

:

the tone if you wish to on the on

the next installment in a way it?

378

:

Gareth: Change your DAW template.

379

:

Rich Chance: Yeah, just sit

fiddling with the you know, the

380

:

reverb on on the percussion group.

381

:

Yeah, absolutely.

382

:

But by the way, I'd love your stuff as

well and you released an album didn't you?

383

:

And I think I said it was, um, or

if it wasn't an album, you've had a

384

:

couple of tracks that are absolutely

385

:

gorgeous, man.

386

:

Gareth: thank you.

387

:

Rich Chance: Yeah.

388

:

Really lovely.

389

:

And reminded me of Bill Frissell.

390

:

Gareth: Right.

391

:

Oh, yes.

392

:

Rich Chance: I

393

:

Gareth: you

394

:

Rich Chance: to you at the time.

395

:

Yeah.

396

:

So, so definitely, if

you're listening, check out

397

:

Gareth: Oh, that's very nice.

398

:

I'm, I'm bang in the middle of exactly

what you've been talking about, which is

399

:

I've got probably got enough for an EP.

400

:

Rich Chance: Right.

401

:

Gareth: But I keep doubting it.

402

:

I keep, because it's songs I used to, you

know, I used to be in a band and, did

403

:

the circuit in London for a few years

404

:

Rich Chance: Right.

405

:

Gareth: songwriting was my thing,

but it was a different life.

406

:

And so to revisit that style,

that songwriting skill set

407

:

seems a little bit alien now.

408

:

Rich Chance: Well, that is funny.

409

:

You should say that.

410

:

Yeah.

411

:

Because it had been a

while for me as well.

412

:

And, uh, yeah, it's a muscle,

413

:

isn't it?

414

:

Gareth: but I'm glad you did it.

415

:

So maybe that'll give me the

confidence to just chuck it

416

:

Rich Chance: Thank you.

417

:

Well, I have to say, I don't really

think, I mean, I've had friends over

418

:

the years who have enjoyed my demos and

stuff that nobody's heard of my songs,

419

:

but I don't really feel like I had all

that much to say until I was 45, and

420

:

that's not an ageist comment because I

do admire a lot of young artists, Ren

421

:

in particular, I just find absolutely

mesmerising to watch his journey.

422

:

But me personally, I think having gone

through some stuff and some stuff that

423

:

was not great and some stuff that was

really not great, um, it just feeds

424

:

the creativity like nothing else.

425

:

And so for me, now was the time.

426

:

I don't feel like it was too

late or, you know, It's all sort

427

:

of come together for me at 45.

428

:

Gareth: Oh,

429

:

Rich Chance: don't know if that

430

:

Gareth: it's that the name of the album?

431

:

Rich Chance: The name of the album is

actually Robot, Spider, Zombie, Dog, but I

432

:

think I've said so many deep things today

that it should be the name of the album.

433

:

Gareth: Nice one.

434

:

So.

435

:

Are we ready to go back in time?

436

:

Rich Chance: Let's go

back in time, Gareth.

437

:

Gareth: Insert sting here.

438

:

Here we are back in time.

439

:

Rich Chance: This is it.

440

:

So dream, dream sequence.

441

:

So yeah, so I grew up in

a, in a musical family.

442

:

From an entertainment background, my

mom and dad were both theatrical agents.

443

:

Uh, before that, my dad was a singer.

444

:

He was managed by Don Black, who used to

write songs with John Barry, of course.

445

:

And, um, he was signed to RCA

Victor and he was quite big

446

:

in the world of the crooners.

447

:

He worked with Buddy Rich and he knew

people like Matt Monroe and Tony Bennett.

448

:

Gareth: That's amazing.

449

:

Rich Chance: So he had a very, very

rich musical heritage, most of which

450

:

actually took place before I was born.

451

:

So, uh, by the time I sort of

came on the scene, dad was, more

452

:

involved in, uh, managing people

and, you know, agency stuff and

453

:

Gareth: for his

454

:

crooning, when were you first

aware that he had that history?

455

:

Was he quite open about it or was

it something he didn't talk about

456

:

Rich Chance: I mean, I had

to seek out the records.

457

:

He wasn't someone that talked, wanted

everybody to use quite a, he's quite

458

:

shy, my dad, and I'd say he's an

introvert, but he didn't really know it.

459

:

So, you know, he would never shout

about his achievements in that way,

460

:

but the records were there when I

was growing up and, you know, there

461

:

were these records that had, you

know, Christopher Gunning who was a

462

:

great composer who we lost recently.

463

:

He was one of the arrangers on the album.

464

:

you know, these great things, London

Symphony Orchestra, and I would put

465

:

this stuff on and it was just magical.

466

:

It was absolutely magical.

467

:

The arrangements were, some of the

arrangements were by a guy called

468

:

Bob Cornford, who also you look

him up, was an amazing arranger.

469

:

Um, um, And so I was sort of transfixed

by that on vinyl very early on, and

470

:

the fact that my dad was on the cover,

it's sort of, it's almost set, set

471

:

things in motion in a, in a, you know,

sort of hero's journey sort of fashion.

472

:

It's like, well, your father is on the

cover of this record, therefore you must

473

:

be on the cover of a record, you know.

474

:

but also, It was just quite natural.

475

:

It was just something that, you know, show

business chat was always in the house.

476

:

It was always a case of, I understood

the entertainment business very early on.

477

:

I used to answer phones in the office.

478

:

I would do the photo copying of the

music for the session musicians.

479

:

I would be the kid that had the

flight cases for the band and I

480

:

was lugging them into the theaters

and all that sort of stuff.

481

:

So I sort of grew up around

the multidisciplinary.

482

:

nature of it all in that way.

483

:

And when I got to 16, I was in the middle

of a performing arts course at 16 in

484

:

Lee college, which is, Lee's a small

place up here in the North, up in North.

485

:

Uh, and.

486

:

And dad had an opening for me

on, the theater show to come and

487

:

come work as a musician on it.

488

:

And I, and I refused because I

didn't want to be nepotistic.

489

:

I wanted to be my own person.

490

:

I wanted to be an actor at the time.

491

:

And then he offered me money.

492

:

And that was brilliant

because I needed money.

493

:

So, so I joined the show and, And

that is kind of where my career

494

:

was for, for quite a few years.

495

:

I sort of, If I wasn't doing

the keyboards, I was working

496

:

on the tracks for the show.

497

:

I was working on the, you know,

sitting with the sound engineer and

498

:

learning about sound or I was working

with the lighting designer or I was,

499

:

you know, all these various roles

until the point where I sort of took

500

:

over running the show in my twenties,

which became quite a big operation.

501

:

And we did shows for royal family.

502

:

We did shows, arenas, you know, all

sorts of stuff around the world.

503

:

and it was during the course of that work

in theatre that I started to branch out

504

:

and do other things as a session musician.

505

:

And, uh, I also worked with my sister.

506

:

My sister was a, or is a, an actress

and an improv performer who used to

507

:

be with the comedy store players,

if And she's very, very artistic.

508

:

So I was a founding member

of her improv group.

509

:

So alongside, I started to work in

doing quite a lot of improv stuff

510

:

where we would, uh, make West End

musicals up on the spot with audience

511

:

suggestions, a little bit of that

very, very similar to Showstoppers if

512

:

anyone's been to Edinburgh festival,

probably running as long, actually.

513

:

So I had this, these sort of all these

diverse areas of my career going on.

514

:

And at a certain point, a film director

came to film the show, and I got quite

515

:

friendly with him and I gave him a CD.

516

:

And it was just a CD of songs, and I

didn't hear from him, and he just, I

517

:

kind of forgot about it really, because

it was, it was that time, that time

518

:

in history when we gave people CDs.

519

:

And, uh, and so, and then he got in

touch with me one day, and he said,

520

:

can you write music for a TV show.

521

:

And I said, yes, knowing full well

that I had absolutely no idea what I

522

:

was doing, but I mean, who wouldn't

say yes, you know And he said, well,

523

:

we haven't got a very big budget.

524

:

Can you just give us a couple of tracks,

you know, so it was 500 quid or something.

525

:

Can you give us a couple of tracks,

you know, and because I'd never done it

526

:

before, because I was desperate to sort

of, get involved in that kind of stuff.

527

:

Because like everybody, yeah.

528

:

I'd grown up listening to John Williams

and Jerry Goldsmith and all these, you

529

:

know, just thinking, oh my God, how

do you even do, who does that career?

530

:

Who actually does that?

531

:

You know?

532

:

so I just gave it my all and I gave

him two hours worth of tracks and I

533

:

just sat, you know, just sat, just sat

there, just, you know, furiously hyper

534

:

focusing and what about this idea?

535

:

What about that one?

536

:

Do you want another one?

537

:

Do you want another one?

538

:

You know, Uh, you know, all just

because it was flowing out of me and

539

:

I thought, wow, somebody's giving

me this incredible opportunity.

540

:

I'm not gonna, I'm not

gonna pass up on it.

541

:

I want, I want to.

542

:

And, you know, also, because I just didn't

know what was right and what wasn't.

543

:

I was just throwing stuff at the

wall and seeing what would stick.

544

:

So from there, and that

director's name was Will Yap.

545

:

And he, he had previously

worked with, uh, Louis Theroux

546

:

and done a few great things.

547

:

I've done up to date, I think I've

done about 10 films with Will.

548

:

And I did, straight after that, I

did, um, a great show with Jennifer

549

:

Saunders called Back in the Saddle

for ITV, which was on primetime.

550

:

And then a few more primetime things

for ITV, and then one or two things

551

:

for Sky, BBC, blah, blah, blah.

552

:

And, uh, so it just, I

was very, very lucky.

553

:

I was definitely, you know, I've got to

say to anybody out there who is, being

554

:

tortured by the eternal question of

how do you get ahead in this business?

555

:

I was one of the lucky ones in terms

of, you know, rubbing shoulders with

556

:

somebody that was able to give me an

opportunity and I'll never forget that.

557

:

Um, now I do think that in

order to keep that gig, you've

558

:

got to learn how to do it.

559

:

You know, somebody will open

the door and say, here's a job.

560

:

I don't think I would have necessarily

got the other jobs if I hadn't

561

:

continued to try and get good at it.

562

:

Um, I, I, well, I mean, I don't

know if I am actually any good at

563

:

it, but nobody's found me out yet.

564

:

Gareth: well, I think the proof

is in the hiring, isn't it?

565

:

You know, people have obviously

hired you and you've done the

566

:

job and you've been hired again.

567

:

So I think that proves it,

568

:

Rich Chance: and it's a strange thing

because, you know, some of that is musical

569

:

talent and a lot of that is, is playing

all of the other games of life, isn't it?

570

:

It's about, um, you know,

communication skills.

571

:

I mean, I only recently found out

that I'm neurodivergent and I don't

572

:

have an a, a formal diagnosis.

573

:

There's about a 10 year waiting list

for one, but having lived with a

574

:

therapist and gone to a therapist,

you know, they've sort of looked at

575

:

some of the comorbidities and we sort

of know where I fall on all of this.

576

:

But I used to, I used to shake to

the point where I couldn't speak

577

:

if a production manager called

me to discuss the fee for a TV

578

:

Gareth: right.

579

:

Rich Chance: I was, I was absolutely

in fight or flight mode every time the

580

:

phone rang, you know, and I sort of

started at the end of the noughties.

581

:

So people still rang you, you know,

I don't think anybody rings you

582

:

anymore, but, but the landline rang and

583

:

Gareth: The

584

:

Rich Chance: was at The

end of it, you know?

585

:

Yeah.

586

:

Gareth: the landline.

587

:

Rich Chance: Yeah.

588

:

Yeah.

589

:

But, you know, it was that

one thing, made me terrified.

590

:

So what am I going to say?

591

:

Cause if I, if I say I'm too much money,

then, then I'm going to lose the gig,

592

:

and you know, I think a lot of, emerging

composers struggle with this stuff

593

:

in terms of understanding their

594

:

Gareth: a lot of, experienced

composers struggle

595

:

Rich Chance: lot of 45 year

old creative hacks still,

596

:

Gareth: the other day, um, I

responded to a, a post that

597

:

someone was looking for a composer.

598

:

So I said, I'm a composer,

emails were exchanged.

599

:

And the first thing that they

said was, what are your rates?

600

:

And this was a little short film.

601

:

You have enough experience to read

between the lines that it's probably

602

:

not going to be a very big budget.

603

:

So I, I wrote back and said, look,

rather than me just saying what I

604

:

last got on a TV show, which will

probably price me out of this project.

605

:

Let's just have a conversation about

what the project is and, what your

606

:

current budget is for, for the music,

because I can easily price myself out

607

:

or, you know, I want to get it right.

608

:

I'd rather do something because I like

it for less, you know, didn't hear back.

609

:

Just so well, you know, there's, I

think there are, there are things

610

:

to be learned on both sides.

611

:

Rich Chance: It's, that's,

that's really interesting.

612

:

Yeah.

613

:

And, and what it also teaches you is that

you're not really in control of those

614

:

decisions as much as you think you are.

615

:

You're not going to ruin your own career

by coming in too, too hot on the price

616

:

in the way that you fear you might, you

know, the game I play with myself is if I

617

:

take this on, what is the minimum amount

of money I'm going to need so that at

618

:

nine o'clock at night on a Thursday when

I've decided I've got no ideas and I don't

619

:

even know why I said yes to this and I

want to throw all my gear in the bin.

620

:

I'm going to be able to tell myself, Oh,

well, at least you got that, you know, and

621

:

I'm, that might be a slightly pessimistic

and cynical view of the whole process.

622

:

But, and then there are other things where

you get into a creative situation and it

623

:

fills your cup so much creatively that

you're not, you would just do it for free.

624

:

And we, we have all had at least one

of those where we've gone oh God, This

625

:

lights all of the lights in my brain

up, I'm being allowed to write the music

626

:

I want, I, you know, everything's just

working, I get on with the director, I

627

:

can see where this is going, you know.

628

:

But for those ones where you're sort of

like, I'm not, I'm not entirely sure.

629

:

That's usually my barometer.

630

:

It's like, well, when it gets

dark, what do you wish you'd said?

631

:

Gareth: it's really tricky, isn't it?

632

:

Because it's not like, um, being

a composer in particular is

633

:

such a, uh, a strange kind of,

there are no job salary bands.

634

:

There are no, you know,

every project's different.

635

:

You can't just apply to a

job you see in the newspaper.

636

:

Um, it's all to do with.

637

:

Networking and who you know,

and, and, and then the kind of

638

:

Mexican standoff of negotiations

of, well, how much do you want?

639

:

Well, how much have you got kind of thing?

640

:

And it's really difficult, really

641

:

Rich Chance: Yeah.

642

:

You sort of, you've sort of signed up to

be an entrepreneur without realising it.

643

:

Cause all you wanted to do was to

644

:

Gareth: it's the last thing

you want to do, isn't it?

645

:

Rich Chance: Yeah, absolutely.

646

:

I had one recently actually, where

I knew that they didn't have much

647

:

of a budget and I knew that they

were also themselves finding it

648

:

difficult to have the conversation,

which I think is the benefit of age.

649

:

Sometimes you can detect where

it might be going, you know?

650

:

But I, well, I just sort of said, because

I didn't know what they had and I didn't

651

:

really want to say what's your budget.

652

:

Cause I knew what the

answer was going to be.

653

:

It was going to be.

654

:

So I just said in general, 10 to

15 percent of the budget is sort of

655

:

where, the composing fee would be

656

:

Gareth: I like that.

657

:

Rich Chance: If you can't quite make

that, then let's have a chat anyway.

658

:

But that, if that helps you, that's

roughly where you should be looking.

659

:

And then someone came back and went, we

can't give you 10 percent of the budget.

660

:

We haven't got it.

661

:

And I went, okay, well, what have you got?

662

:

And then blah, blah, blah.

663

:

And

664

:

Gareth: That's a really good

way of kicking things off.

665

:

Because it's kind of

666

:

non confrontational, isn't it?

667

:

Rich Chance: that was just going

to say, it's like distancing

668

:

language where nobody's actually,

no shots were fired here.

669

:

But we've, but we've discussed

the ballpark of what we need to

670

:

Gareth: like that, like that.

671

:

Rich Chance: Yeah.

672

:

Yeah.

673

:

Oh, at least I've been useful once.

674

:

You're going to edit this whole thing

down so that Richard Chance's negotiation

675

:

Gareth: absolutely.

676

:

Put it in the, uh, the episode title.

677

:

well, Rich, I ask all of my guests to

leave an item and a piece of advice

678

:

for others to find in the music room.

679

:

What item would you like to leave?

680

:

Rich Chance: Okay.

681

:

So I've thought about this.

682

:

I need to reread it because I'm

guessing there's going to be

683

:

some outdated references in it.

684

:

But a book that really meant a lot

to me at various stages of my career.

685

:

is Never Too Late To Be Great

686

:

by Tom Butler-Bowdon.

687

:

And that book is a sort of document

of all of the people that succeeded

688

:

at a late stage in their lives

and at a late stage in the game.

689

:

it's obviously got some, some capitalist

overtones and it's got a few self help

690

:

overtones, but it's still a great read for

anyone that's thinking What am I doing?

691

:

Should I be doing this?

692

:

Should I be doing something else?

693

:

So that's the thing I'd like to leave

694

:

Gareth: That's fantastic.

695

:

That'll go into the music room.

696

:

and, so, what piece of advice

would you like to leave?

697

:

Rich Chance: Well, I think based

on where I am now and what we've

698

:

discussed, the best advice that I've

ever sort of taken on board is to

699

:

be authentic and to be yourself and

to lead your own journey because,

700

:

you can't do this for somebody else.

701

:

You can't try and please the crowd.

702

:

You have got to find the thing

that lights you up and just do it.

703

:

As they say, find what what you love

and do it till it kills you basically.

704

:

So I really, honestly, with hand on heart,

everything that I've done in my career,

705

:

all the times I've tried to get a leg

up through networking or tried to make

706

:

a wise business decision or shout about

something I've done in my career, the

707

:

happiest I've ever been is just following

my own dreams and following my own lead.

708

:

So that is the advice

709

:

Gareth: Oh, talking about,

following your own journey.

710

:

You mentioned in a post about, uh,

a little tour, maybe next year.

711

:

Rich Chance: Yep.

712

:

So, yeah, we've only actually got one

date in at the moment, but I'm working

713

:

on all the date sheets at the moment.

714

:

So, um, my hometown of Preston has got

this great original venue called the

715

:

New Continental and I will be there

th of January,:

716

:

And then following on from that, we're

going to start putting dates with

717

:

my band in for the rest of the year.

718

:

Hopefully one a month.

719

:

We've got a few festivals that we're

looking at as the IPO festival in

720

:

March, which is the international

pop over through a festival, which

721

:

takes place at the cabin in Liverpool.

722

:

And it's a, it's loads of great.

723

:

bands from the power pop and new

wave sort of genres that people may

724

:

not know about and i'm hopefully

included on that so i will obviously

725

:

be keeping people updated on my social

media which has been rather busy of

726

:

late

727

:

Gareth: absolutely.

728

:

I'll put your links in the show

notes as well for people to find you.

729

:

But for now it's been such a

joy chatting with you, Rich.

730

:

And, uh, thanks for joining

me in the music room.

731

:

Rich Chance: it's been

amazing thank you so much mate

732

:

Gareth: Thanks for listening to

the Music Room podcast today.

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If you'd like to know more about the

show or the community that surrounds

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it, head to musicroom.community.

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The link is in the show notes.

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