Liv's Perspective: Connection between Bitcoin, Human Behavior, and Well-Being"

In this episode of 'The Orange Hatter', the guest, Liv, a psychologist from Germany who lives in America, discusses her understanding of Bitcoin in relation to cognitive psychology and systemic behavior. She delves into the topic of why individuals are often resistant to Bitcoin, attributing this to the subconscious safety cues from our environment that correlate with our current financial system. These safety cues induce a feeling of security and disrupt the notion of adopting an entirely new system like Bitcoin. Liv goes on to articulate how Bitcoin offers stability, predictability, and inspires individuals to plan for the future - key elements that she argues are vital for our wellbeing. The conversation also highlights the importance of questioning existing systems and making long-term decisions. Liv encourages listeners to examine the current financial system critically, evaluate its advantages and disadvantages, principally the concept of inflation, in order to understand the potential benefits of Bitcoin better.

00:03 Introduction and the Importance of Safety in Altruism

00:38 Welcome to Orange Hatter: A Bitcoin Podcast

01:00 Exclusive Retreat for Women in Bitcoin

02:24 Liv's Journey into the Bitcoin Space

05:51 Exploring the Bitcoin Conference and Community

13:10 Liv's Involvement in Permaculture and Farming

18:37 The Challenges and Rewards of Raising Animals

25:21 The Connection Between Bitcoin and Nature

29:37 Depression Rates in Russia and the Power of Purpose

30:18 The Role of Community and Belonging in Well-being

31:31 The Impact of Nationalism and Cultural Conditioning

32:56 The Importance of Individual Choice and Self-Efficacy

35:17 The Influence of Culture and Conditioning on Perception

35:31 The Role of Responsibility in Community Participation

36:32 The Importance of History and Cultural Identity

41:29 The Impact of Conditioning on Our Perception of the World

43:57 The Importance of Questioning the Current System

50:04 The Potential of Bitcoin to Establish a Better System

55:05 The Importance of Long-Term Thinking and Questioning Everything

01:02:16 Closing Thoughts and Encouragement

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If we are questioning the current system, and we show people that their

2

safety cues in their environment

might be danger cues, we have to

3

present them a whole new system rather

than just to say Bitcoin is good.

4

I think the humans are very

altruistic and giving and helping

5

people is the best antidepressants

out there on the market right now.

6

The altruistic part of us cannot be

triggered if we do not feel safe.

7

So if I do not have a system

I live in where I can predict

8

something, then I'm not feeling

safe and then I can't be altruistic.

9

And this is what is destroying

us right now in a certain way.

10

Tali: Hey, everybody.

11

Welcome to Orange Hatter.

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We can't wait to welcome you.

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Tali: Hey Liv, welcome to Orange Hatter.

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I'm so happy you're here.

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Thank you for joining us today.

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Liv: Hi, Teli.

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I'm so happy to be here and

thank you so much for having me.

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Tali: Awesome.

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Let's dive into your

background a little bit.

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Tell us a little bit about yourself.

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Liv: I'm originally from Germany,

where I've studied psychology.

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And I've moved one and a half

years ago to America because my

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husband is originally from here.

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We actually met in New Zealand while

traveling, and then we decided to stay

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together, and we lived for two years

together in Germany while I finished

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my master's there, and then we moved

around one and a half years ago here

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to, to America, and While we were in

Germany and COVID hit and all those

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restrictions were a thing and the

world was a little bit upside down.

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I was at the end of my master's

and I had to get a couple of

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seminars on behavioral economics.

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And what I've learned was

how irrational we humans are.

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And so I had a very interesting seminar

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We had to read a couple of chapters

of the book of Daniel Kahneman.

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He won the Nobel Prize for economics

and because he wrote a book on how

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irrational humans are and yeah, he is

a super smart professor originally from

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Israel and I was thrown off by how This

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from a psychological point of view.

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We we learned that a lot of people like

who worked for banks gave out loans just

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because they thought those people were

nice and looked like they can pay off

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the loan, but didn't really check for.

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Actually yeah, if they have jobs and

if they can really afford to pay off

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that, so we were learning about this

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poor people were suffering from that

the most and that there weren't any

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consequences for the bankers necessarily.

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And at the same time, my husband was

talking about Bitcoin all the time.

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I was a little bit annoyed at that time.

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I have to admit, because he was talking

in the morning, in the evening about it.

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And he was just.

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nonstop talking about it.

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And I was like, okay, is

it about Bitcoin again?

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And I now since I'm in America, I

connected with a couple of women and they

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said that we went through the same thing.

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So no worry.

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So I, I was a bit.

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Interested in a certain way, but

also annoyed at the beginning, but

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then yeah we did a lot of hikes.

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You couldn't really do a lot during

COVID, so it's really nice in Germany.

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You just leave the village and you

just go for a hike wherever you are.

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And we talked a lot and he explained

Bitcoin constantly on a deep level.

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And then I connected at some point, like

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that happened and why it happened that

it is actually because we humans are so

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irrational, and I'm not always thinking

that clear or making that those good

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decisions, how we think of us, we do.

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And to the topic of Bitcoin,

something which helps us to.

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To exchange something to trade

something internationally wide,

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but it's a currency, which is not

affected by the inflation at all.

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And so I thought it was so interesting.

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And this is yeah, my

background regarding Bitcoin.

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And then we came last year to America

and my husband said there's in Miami, the

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Bitcoin conference, why don't we go there?

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Right before we arrive in America and then

actually fly to where we're going to live.

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I was like, all right, here we go.

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Let's go to Miami.

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And I arrived there and he

was helping out on a boat.

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Like, how do you say that?

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I don't know.

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Like on the conference, he

helped out there with someone

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from a 3D printing company.

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I think it's Max.

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And so I was a little bit on my own,

but I met really cool people there.

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I enjoyed the time.

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I attended a couple of presentations

or talks, I had to, I have to

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admit, it wasn't that I was thinking

like, Oh, this is amazing here.

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I was thinking it's all about money here.

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Then you, enter the hall where

there are so many companies who

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are like, Hey, you get a deal here

and give us your information here.

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And you get a little

extra gift here and there.

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And it was a lot about money and.

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It was in a certain way for me,

a bit superficial, but of course,

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when, diving deeper into Bitcoin

conversation with people it was.

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Yeah, very good in its own way and very

meaningful rather than the superficial

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conference, which I didn't really like.

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I appreciated though that Dr.

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Jordan Peterson was there because

I really enjoyed his talk and

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I was very I was sitting in the

crowd and he was talking about how.

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He doesn't know how Bitcoin

will go in the future.

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Like he got he said literally we

think it's so amazing and so great

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of the tool, but we don't really

know if things will work the way we

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think they will work because it's

very unlikely that a prediction will

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go the way we think it will go from

what humans have experienced so far.

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This is not always how it goes.

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And so I was thinking I

was sitting there in this.

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In this crowd, I was thinking Bitcoiners

are not going to like hear that, but

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everyone was cheering him and I was

surprised in that moment and thought

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maybe I'm missing something here.

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Maybe it is not as superficial

as I think it is here.

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So nevertheless, I left Miami.

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And thought, cool, some rich people

meet here and have a fun time in Miami.

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And then we arrived in Michigan and

my husband started the meetup here.

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He was very like into that, very engaged

and participating in this Bitcoin

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community and helping to grow it.

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And I appreciated that he's so

enthusiastic about that and that he

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wants to give something to the community.

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What do you actually see

in a lot of Bitcoiners?

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I have the feeling

everyone wants to share.

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Everyone wants to provide something.

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And we went to Lansing one time and they

were out of a sudden, those people, a

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little bit older than 50, and they were

using miners to dehydrate their food.

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They were growing food and they were

doing all those crazy things in nowhere.

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Like you literally drove two hours

and then you arrive somewhere in a

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hall, like a big hall and there's

little, a little lake, which is called

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by the way, Lake Satoshi and out of

a sudden, there are those big cars.

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And then they have and they bought

all the bank and there's a Trezor,

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like an old, very old Trezor.

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And that's full of Bitcoin stuff.

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This whole old bank has handouts

on Bitcoin, the white papers on the

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wall and all those kind of things.

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And I was like, what are we doing here?

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And then Mike, who is One of the

organizers, besides Ben and PF, who

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are running the meetup there, was

like, Hey Liv, how are you doing?

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I was like, good.

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And he's so do you have any

questions regarding Bitcoin?

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And I was like, yeah, I do not

understand everything in detail.

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And he's yeah, okay, come with me.

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And he has that like, And there's

the mempool and everything.

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And he explains to me everything.

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And I was like, what is happening here?

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And so those people from, are

from point of view, very grounded,

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very connected to nature.

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They all have gardens

or something going on.

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A lot Bitcoineries in Michigan,

also the South Bend, sorry,

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it's the Benton Harbor meetup.

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All those people are in Ann Arbor.

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They have a meetup now where everyone

is into those topics of farming,

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sovereignty, and I just loved it.

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And so then we met Carl, who

is the down in Benton Harbor or

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South Bend closer to that area.

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And he's running his permaculture

project with 30 sheep and chickens

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and all those kinds of things.

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And also like very grounded people.

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And I was just like thinking,

this is so cool here.

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And this reminded me a lot also of

those events, Katie, the Russian is

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organizing where it's all about the

whole system, not just about money.

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It's about what do we eat?

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How can we improve that more woman

can give birth in a normal way

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rather than having a C section.

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How can we improve our medical treatment

and all of those kinds of other

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topics, which are very fundamental.

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And so I thought it was just so

amazing to experience it that way.

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And this is what got

me really into Bitcoin.

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Tali: I love what you said about

how Bitcoin is not just about

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money and that conference that

you were at was my first time.

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In a Bitcoin conference and like you, I

didn't want to go and listen to speakers

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speaking at me from a stage I went to the

floor and I talked to people eyeball to

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eyeball because I wanted a person telling

me about Bitcoin, from two feet away so I

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can feel if they are sincere because you

can get a lot from people's vibe, right?

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And I bugged these vendors to no end with

so many questions and they were patient

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with me, but it was what convinced me

finally that we needed to participate

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in this space and so in that way I

think we're very similar and I went to

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the Jordan Peterson talk as well and

afterwards Scott and I were talking about

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it and the same thing that you just said

was what I said I'm like he's the only

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person who raised that question which

is what are the unintended consequences

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of Bitcoin because everybody 99.

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9 percent of people in the space

are very optimistic, right?

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We believe in the fundamentals.

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We think it's going to be the solution

to world problems, but he was the only

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one who said, what are we not seeing?

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And I love that honesty about him.

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So I just really resonated

with what you shared about what

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you got out of the conference.

214

And yes, people were applauding because I

feel like Bitcoiners are quite open minded

215

in general, we are willing to consider

different points of view, which is so

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unlike the rest of the world these days.

217

I feel like it's just an echo chamber

on whatever side you stand in,

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that's the echo chamber you stand in.

219

But in Bitcoin space, I think we're pretty

open to consider all the possibilities.

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So that's been really cool.

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So you got involved in permaculture

and I'm very fascinated by that

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because as we discussed before we

recorded, I have failed miserably

223

in my own attempts, my own fault

because I didn't do any research.

224

But yeah, let's talk more about that.

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What are you guys doing on

the farm and how are you

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learning from other Bitcoiners?

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Liv: Since I didn't have my green

card for quite a while and I was

228

waiting for the work permit, I

didn't really know what to do here.

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And I always loved nature.

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I grew up in Germany in a

village with 900 inhabitants.

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And since we.

232

Have two farms in that village with

cattle, goats, sheep, chickens.

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And you literally, even if you

don't have any animals you can

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get your eggs from everywhere.

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Like you just ask someone like,

do you sell some eggs today?

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And of course, you have all the resources

and all the access to really good food.

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And so my parents, for example, they

budget every year, a quarter of a cow.

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And just down the street, and

it is very well connected and

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really good food in Germany.

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There are also certain certificates which

show that vegetables or animals were

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treated in a biodynamic way, so they

don't use any pesticides or anything.

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So you can also go in a supermarket

and get really good food.

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Coming here to America.

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I was thrown off a little bit.

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You can go here in America, probably

to really good farmers markets,

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but they are also hard to find.

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And often it takes them some time to drive

there because they're not everywhere.

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And then you also sometimes

limited to what you can get there.

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And it's also expensive, especially

Because of the inflation, especially

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products like farm, like products,

they go up in price the most.

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This is actually what's written and say

for Dean's a moose, a book, the Fiat

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standard that those kinds of products

are affected the most by the inflation.

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So I said to my husband

I'm not working anyways.

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Why shouldn't we get involved

in this little farm here?

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Because we live with my parents in law,

and they have a little farm going anyways.

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And I said I can help

out my father in law.

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So I took over the chickens.

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We have now, at the moment, 80 chickens.

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We will butcher, though,

around 20 to 25 in two months.

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And That was a lot of fun, right?

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From the beginning, a lot of chickens

are very naughty, unfortunately, so

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they got out of the fence and then

I had to think about solutions.

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I experienced that nature is

not really predictable and

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can really challenge humans.

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And first of all, I started off with those

chickens and then I started breeding them.

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So this year I bred 30 chickens.

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And last year around 20 and we have a

lot of gardens around five gardens with

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a lot of plans like 120 tomato plants.

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From my father in law, I have around.

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I would say 25 broccoli plants this year

I raised from seed and then I have around

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15 celery plants I raised from seed and

I haven't done much before except that I

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always a little bit helped out my mom back

home she's also having her gardens but

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yeah it's all new to me and I think it is

so important to learn stuff like this to

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know how it works and it actually is very

fulfilling and then we got to know Carl

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and his wife, Carl Goldsberry Rathoddle,

and he's running this permaculture project

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close to Benton Harbor, and he has sheep.

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And I always thought, while I'm

not working, I could actually get

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into either having goats or sheep.

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Not necessarily cattle because they're

pretty big and you have to have certain

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equipment to be able to have cattle.

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So I said something little

and Raphallo has sheep and he

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said They're low maintenance.

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They're a specific kind of sheep.

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They are very resistant when it

comes to parasites, and they can stay

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outside during the wintertime, which

is really good because we don't have

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an option to bring animals in the barn.

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In the barn are chickens, so

there's no more space left.

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We said actually, that

sounds pretty good to us.

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We bought two pregnant sheep in April this

year, and then they gave birth in May.

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And we got five little ones.

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And that was a very

interesting experience.

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Getting up at nighttime, hearing them

making noises and being there while

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they're born, and then being part

of the whole process of observing

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them, how they grow or how they

struggle and where they need support.

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And yeah, I think it's a lot of fun.

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It's sometimes driving me crazy

if they get out of the fence and

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are naughty and cross the street.

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And I'm just thinking, how did that

happen that they cross the street where

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there is a lot of traffic going on?

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And seven sheep survived

passing the street.

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So I'm also right now thinking I

hope they're in that pen because

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they got already out this morning

But yeah, it's a lot of fun on

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the one hand, but it's also work.

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So I don't want to Give everyone the

impression that it's so romantic and

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always going well but it's fun definitely

and it's meaningful and I think that's the

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important one that it is meaningful work

and It's also important that we learn that

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things are not always working out the way

we want it to for our own mental growth.

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Okay.

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Tali: okay, here's the problem that

I have thinking about raising my own

310

animals, especially watching them be

born and raising them from babies.

311

How are you going to eat them?

312

They're like your babies.

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Liv: Yeah.

314

I don't know what happened with me,

but I was always thinking the same way.

315

And then I raised chickens.

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And if you raise chickens.

317

The probability isn't that low

that you raise a female chicken.

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It's actually very high.

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That's that it is a male chicken.

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And last year I was just

experimenting around.

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I was just doing what I

thought I could do right now.

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Let's put some eggs in the

incubator and see what happens.

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And then we were standing there

in October, November, and there

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were those 10 roosters in our

chicken coop driven by testoterone.

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They were super aggressive

and crazy in a certain way.

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They were just jumping from

one hen to the next one.

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So I entered the chicken coop and everyone

was sitting in their roosting area.

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And I wanted to feed them, so the

first hens were coming down from

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the roosting area, and the roosters

were jumping on them right away.

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So it was a disaster, and sometimes

the hens would just run up to me,

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knowing they would be safe around me.

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They were so scared, and we had that

really beautiful, colorful rooster.

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And I bred him together

with a really nice hen.

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Their name is Peter and Rosa.

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And they were our breeding chickens

for the last year's season.

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And they were running around outside.

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And we just, we made that

funny joke and gave them names.

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And interestingly twelve, from

twelve chickens, ten were roosters.

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And I don't know what happened

in this moment, but those

340

roosters were just nasty.

341

And then I said to my husband,

we have to take them out because

342

our hens are not laying anymore.

343

They're scared.

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They're getting beaten up.

345

And then you experience nature

being brutal in its own way.

346

And then it helped me to be

okay with butchering a rooster.

347

And I killed.

348

a rooster.

349

I would have never thought that

I would be able to do that.

350

But it's just the connection.

351

I'm losing this kind of fear of like being

connected to nature and my own survival.

352

If I'm not eating, I have a problem.

353

And I think we cannot live off just

vegetables because what Raph Hottle, Carl

354

is saying, those animals are a battery.

355

They eat during the summer and then

during wintertime they restore value.

356

And we can eat them during the

winter time and we will be okay.

357

I think it is important that I'm able

to kill my own animals if I want to eat.

358

And I am interested in how it

will go with the sheep because

359

we haven't butchered them yet.

360

But yeah, I think it will be okay, . It's

just what other option do we have?

361

I feel like we have the option

throughout the last decades to always

362

go towards this kind of statement or

this kind of philosophy, easy choices.

363

Like we can always go for easy choices.

364

We just have to go to the

supermarket and we will be fine.

365

And we can fly everywhere and we can

go on vacation and we can do a lot of

366

things, which is what the fiat standard

and the capitalism created for us.

367

But it has also its downsides.

368

So I think that having always the

option to get everything we want.

369

Brings us to a state where

we are not having any aims

370

anymore goals in life anymore.

371

And that makes it a bit tricky because

I think it's very important to have a

372

goal in life to go towards something

and also to face that things are not

373

always working out the way we think they

will work out and also to do things.

374

Which aren't nice because this

is actually how life goes.

375

It's an up and down of we have to face

something which is hard, a hardship, and

376

then things will be okay again because

we acknowledge and appreciate things

377

way more if they're also sometimes

like those reminders that life can be

378

hard and we should be very thankful.

379

And I have sometimes the feeling like

I worked in the area of neuropsychology

380

in Germany and I had a lot of clients

who are coming into my office and said,

381

I had a stroke last week and I'm super,

super scared that it will happen again.

382

And we see it very often that people

who have had a stroke that they get

383

depressed very easily, especially men.

384

And I had the feeling they have never

even thought about the option that life

385

could end or that something goes wrong.

386

But most of the time they were

having high positions like CEO

387

positions or something like this.

388

They had kids, family,

everything went well.

389

And then all of a sudden things change

and then they have to figure out, okay,

390

what is my strategy here right now

to compensate this, like to be okay

391

with that it didn't work out the way I

thought it would be that life can end.

392

And this is what nature teaches

me, and I'm not going to be happy

393

and I might even cry when we take

out our sheep because I love them.

394

But.

395

Yeah.

396

Sacrifice the lamb.

397

This is what's written and in

a very ancient book, the Bible.

398

So I think there is something to it.

399

And my husband is saying the same thing.

400

A lamb is very precious.

401

When we lost one of the lambs while they

were being born and we maybe we would

402

have been able to help the lamb because

the mucosa was wrapped around its head

403

and the mom couldn't get the mucosa off.

404

Yeah.

405

the placenta.

406

So the mom didn't have a chance

to help her baby to not die

407

because it couldn't breathe.

408

And we were approaching in the morning,

the pen, and we heard two little

409

sheep or lamb were like making noises.

410

So we were like, Oh, this is so cute.

411

And this was the first time

that we experienced that

412

one of our sheep gave birth.

413

And then I saw there was a dead lamb

laying and That is something so different

414

than any other animal, I would say.

415

They're very precious, they're

very meaningful, and so I think

416

it's very hard to give them away.

417

But I think that's, yeah,

something which helps us to accept

418

that life is the way it goes.

419

It is about a cycle of life.

420

It's about being born and dying.

421

And this is what I think about that.

422

Tali: I think you're so right in that

the past few decades have made life

423

so easy that we start to have a quite

distorted view of how things work.

424

So one of the examples I can share when

I felt that was when I stopped buying

425

meat from the grocery stores, and I was

buying exclusively from a beef farmer.

426

And When you go on their website,

they are out of stock often of

427

different parts of the animal.

428

So for the chickens, they would sell out

of the legs and then for the beef, they

429

might sell out of a certain kind of cut or

they're, they might be out of the bones.

430

And those are limited quantities, like the

smallest quantities on an animal, right?

431

On every chicken you get Two legs.

432

And if you package them up, you're

going to sell out of them quickly.

433

It's not like the grocery store

where chicken legs are unlimited.

434

And anytime you want chicken legs,

you can go there and get it because

435

that's how they're produced.

436

But when you go to a family farm, you

realize that everything is finite.

437

If you sell out, you got to wait.

438

Sometimes they sell out milk

because They're just out.

439

And it's the season when the cows are

feeding their own babies and they're

440

not taking the milk from the mom.

441

And then you just have to wait.

442

And learning to go with that cycle was

actually a mental adjustment for me.

443

Liv: Yeah, I can totally understand

that like that changes something in us.

444

Bitcoin does that too.

445

And that's the interesting thing.

446

Like I sometimes hear those young men

or women saying, yeah, I was investing

447

in ethereum I was investing in this

and this and everything went well, but

448

then it didn't went well and then it

wasn't up and down and started to annoy

449

me at some point and then I saw Bitcoin

and like it and the appreciation of

450

Bitcoin that it is limited in Bitcoin.

451

And we won't have the option to just

create more is I think what changes

452

humans and their thinking, because all

of a sudden, we have to work towards

453

something, and we have more a goal

where it's like, As of now, the society

454

is just spending money, how the system

is set up to the system wants us to

455

spend money to help the economy grow.

456

But what is being created

is not really valuable.

457

For example, what we get from China.

458

But people still I sometimes have the

feeling tell themselves the story that

459

they get whatever they want and that

everything is great the way it is.

460

And so ignorance is

bliss in a certain way.

461

But, we humans in general,

we want more and more.

462

What we see is that people create

amazing or maybe crazy events to have a

463

baby shower or a bachelorette's party.

464

So they go, for example, to Hawaii

to have a bachelorette's party.

465

That wasn't even a thing back in the days.

466

Back in the days, it was

all about friends are coming

467

together and having a great time.

468

And it's about positive relationships.

469

And it still is in a certain

way, but it has to happen with

470

all this craziness around it.

471

That it has to be a really cool event.

472

And At some point, people are

not thinking they can get whatever

473

they want, and they need more and

more of those dopamine rushes.

474

So if we do something great, or

if we drink alcohol, if we get

475

a positive feedback, a certain

neurotransmitter is released in

476

our brain, and that's dopamine.

477

And that gives us a good feeling.

478

That's why we are

thriving in a certain way.

479

And I think that if we work in

that way, And there are no limits

480

to things we want more and more.

481

But we see that we are not really being

fulfilled on the long run, because

482

it's just always this short Oh, nice.

483

We got another dopamine rush

and now it's the next one.

484

And now it's the next one.

485

It's an addiction in a certain way,

but there is not really something

486

meaningful necessarily to it.

487

And this is what we experienced

right now in Russia.

488

Russia has all of a sudden a goal.

489

A higher goal in life.

490

And this is to win against the West.

491

It's a new topic, not a new

topic, it's a related topic, but

492

that's a very interesting theme.

493

And so what studies show right

now is that the depression

494

rate in Russia went way down.

495

They did a study on that

and the Kreml published that

496

study, as far as I'm informed.

497

And it is crazy to see that all of

a sudden the people know Yeah, this

498

like life I've experienced that I

could go to Starbucks and have a

499

coffee or I could go to go out or

Egypt to have a nice vacation.

500

Those things were all in

a certain way meaningless.

501

But all of sudden, there's

something really meaningful.

502

And they are thriving towards the goal.

503

And their depression goes down, because

they're working towards something.

504

I do have to say.

505

That there is also another factor,

which is part of this development or

506

process, and that is that Russians

are also having the An enemy now.

507

So always when a population or

group has an enemy, , then they are

508

having a higher sense of belonging.

509

And this is also what well being is

about well being is about having an aim,

510

but also feeling like you're part of

something like the sense of belonging.

511

So this is what we see to that those

two factors are an important role,

512

but just the crazy fact that yeah.

513

In Russia, the depression goes down

because they have a higher aim in life is

514

something which shows me that something is

definitely wrong with our system because

515

they already should have had that feeling

of a sense of belonging and to have an aim

516

before and not just because of war starts.

517

Yeah.

518

Tali: I think you hit

the nail on the head.

519

There are so many people who are floating

around out there and they don't know

520

What tribe they belong to, and when

you don't know what tribe you belong

521

to, it's a very lonely and scary place,

and it's a very anxiety inducing place.

522

I talk to my kids a lot from a point of

view of them being biracial, I grew up

523

in a developing country, Scott obviously

grew up here, and what we were taught

524

as kids growing up were so different.

525

Where I grew up, Nationalism was drilled

into the children, pride over your

526

nation was absolutely drilled like being

Chinese was a great sense of pride.

527

We were proud of our hair color.

528

We were part proud of our eye color.

529

We were proud of our skin color.

530

There was a huge emphasis

on feeling proud to be Chinese.

531

And so the culture is

preserved in that way.

532

We learn stories, folk tales and

everybody believed in the same

533

thing, ? Scott grew up here and to

a much lesser degree because it was

534

decades ago patriotism was taught.

535

But now it is the opposite.

536

Kids are being taught to hate their

past, which is such a detrimental thing.

537

I think like what you were saying

to look at their people and then

538

think, Oh, they did terrible things.

539

I need to amend for their sins . You.

540

Literally take away their

ability to feel proud of their

541

tribe and is so detrimental.

542

What do you think about that from the

point of view of a psychologist and also

543

from the point of view of an immigrant?

544

Liv: So I think that you can approach

the feeling of belonging to a

545

community in two different ways.

546

I see that development right now happening

in Germany, where we have one party trying

547

to enforce this feeling of belonging.

548

And then it happens with singing

the hymn showing flags of

549

Germany, and stuff like this.

550

And this is super superficial,

it's nothing meaningful.

551

And telling a child from childhood onwards

yeah, pride of the nation, and kind

552

of conditioning children towards this

feeling to be part of this community.

553

I think it's just going

the wrong direction.

554

Like we see that with the Amish

people here, they're being taught in

555

a certain way, how to live their life.

556

And they were educated in a certain way.

557

But as far as I'm informed, when

they're around 18 to 20, they leave for

558

a year, their community, to consider.

559

If They still want to be part of

their community, or if they want to

560

be maybe part of another community.

561

And I think it is so important to, to not

force people in this direction, because

562

the most important thing to improve well

being and to reduce depression is to

563

help people to decide for themselves.

564

So that they feel that their

actions and their decisions matter.

565

Self efficacy is the key word right there.

566

And What I see is we have more and

more regulations, we are more and more

567

forced in a certain way, now they want

our children to sing the hymn, that the

568

children feel more like they are part

of a community, and that doesn't work.

569

Because that's just maybe we feel in

a certain moment Oh, that's good.

570

We're part of that.

571

But that's not for the long run.

572

That's just for a short period of

time and what shows us the most that

573

people are not really feeling like

they're part of a community is that

574

they don't want to pay their taxes.

575

If you are part of a community, you want

to provide for the community and you.

576

Actually, we should have the intention to

pay taxes, but people get married right

577

before the new year to pay less taxes

or they have consultant who help them.

578

So something in a system where

we're forced to do something,

579

or to feel like we're part of it.

580

It's just not going to work.

581

That's the one aspect

I can say about that.

582

What I think is important is.

583

That people have a responsibility, though.

584

People cannot ask for someone to act

in their Opinion or in their belief

585

if they're not participating, they

cannot be like, Hey, government,

586

do whatever I want you to do.

587

And then things like, this is how I

want it and you just do it for me.

588

And this is what we see right now

though on worldwide, everyone is

589

like, I want a better life, and

the government should do that.

590

But what I think is best is if everyone

has to participate again, like You

591

have to go every month to a community

meeting, you have to participate at

592

least one member of the family to

give people the feeling that they have

593

responsibility and to give people the

feeling that they belong to the community.

594

This is what I can say about that

topic and the sense of belonging is

595

a very crucial one for well being.

596

And.

597

I do not see it right now.

598

I see it in the Bitcoin

community a lot though.

599

Everyone wants to provide

something and everyone feels

600

like he's part of that community.

601

Now, Tali, I need you to clarify

a little bit more the question

602

regarding the history aspect that

they want the children to forget

603

about the history and neglect that.

604

Can you explain that for me one more time?

605

Tali: Yeah, I just, I feel sad

when I talk to my kids about

606

much their peers are told.

607

to be almost ashamed of their And I

feel that if you are ashamed of your

608

history or what your people did, then

how do you figure out where you belong?

609

Because at the same time,

family units are breaking down.

610

And like what you said, The most important

part for a human being to feel is that

611

they belong somewhere like they have

their community like you're saying, and

612

they're working toward a common goal,

like what you're saying in Russia, in the

613

United States, I feel sad for children

who are told that they can't be proud of

614

the community they're a part of, which

is America, I'm not saying they should

615

or should not be taught a certain way

I think the hurt comes from robbing

616

them of the community that they're with

because they're told to fight against it.

617

You know what I'm saying?

618

We can talk about gender,

we can talk about race.

619

It doesn't really matter, but they're

being robbed of their community in

620

the way that they are being taught.

621

today.

622

My kids, they know their community

because they grew up in the homeschooling

623

community, like you're saying, like

the Bitcoiner community is very tight.

624

People feel a great sense of belonging.

625

They're contributing and

they know who they are.

626

Same thing for the homeschooler community.

627

It's tight.

628

They know what they're

trying to accomplish.

629

So they know where they belong.

630

But a lot of kids don't get that at

all, whether it's a home or at school.

631

And I just think that's really sad.

632

Liv: Yeah, definitely.

633

History has shown us that

people can be very brutal.

634

I'm from Germany.

635

I know very well what happened

during Hitler, the Hitler time.

636

Because we were talking about this

every year in school, every year in

637

a different subject I've heard about.

638

What Hitler did and how things went and

there is a generational problem right

639

there because on the one hand, those are

our ancestors, who participated in that.

640

And now we can think a little

bit about this of humans.

641

We humans, we have created

something so great.

642

We drive cars, we fly from one continent

to the other within a couple of hours.

643

And we were able to to improve certain

things in this world in a certain way.

644

And we are in a certain way very

smart when it comes to planning

645

and creating and working together.

646

But we are very irrational.

647

And What happened during Hitler, for

example, was mass formation, group

648

thinking, and a lot of other cognitive

biases impacted the whole population,

649

affected them, and they did what they did.

650

And studies show us that it could happen

again, and it could happen also on other

651

continents and not just in Germany.

652

And what I Now say that those people are

all who did that are crazy and horrible

653

in a certain way, they did a big mistake

and they should have stood up, but

654

they are also irrational and there are

psychopaths out there that from what I am

655

aware of, it's like a certain percentage.

656

It's not 60%, it's, I think

closer to lower than 10, I think.

657

And to be like, I have a grandmother who.

658

Was alive during the Hitler time, but

she's still my grandmother, and I think it

659

is important to, to learn from this, those

things that they happen to reflect on

660

this, rather than to judge and to be like

they did this it can happen to everyone.

661

And I think it is important that, we are

not saying the history is bad, it is.

662

For sure it is.

663

Please don't understand me wrong.

664

It was very bad what happened there, and

I don't want in any way find an excuse.

665

Exemption for that, or say that's

okay, it was definitely not.

666

But I'm trying just to reply to your

question that I think it, it doesn't make

667

sense to, to be like, hey, they were bad,

your history was very bad and that takes

668

apart and like, families, I think it is

important that we also, in a certain way

669

forgive our, especially our families and

to try to understand each other, but also

670

to try to especially reflect on ourselves.

671

Are we doing mistakes right now?

672

Are we conditioned in a certain way?

673

And maybe we want to think differently

especially the inflation is a

674

thing where we are so conditioned

to this new system that inflation

675

is good for us or is okay to have.

676

But we are not questioning it

because we're so conditioned.

677

As an example I have lived

in different countries.

678

I've lived for half a year in India, for

a year in New Zealand, for two months

679

in Turkey, and For the most part of

my life in Germany and now I'm here in

680

America since one and a half years and

you understand culture and how culture

681

has developed in a way more deeper level.

682

And a very funny aspect of what

Americans are doing and Germans

683

would never do is washing your child

in the sink when it's very small.

684

I don't know if you have heard about

this, but this is what Americans do.

685

And I mean it's fair enough.

686

You can wash your child in

the sink if you want to.

687

I am washing chickens before

I prepare them in the sink.

688

I would never wash my child in the sink.

689

I have told to my sister and my

sister-in-law in Germany that is a

690

crazy thought to think we should, we

could wash our children in the sink.

691

And you see right there, we are

differently conditioned in that way,

692

that this is okay in one culture and

it's not okay in the other culture.

693

And.

694

The same goes with inflation.

695

We're conditioned to it, but we're not

questioning it if it is right to do

696

that, to have an inflationary system.

697

So I can just encourage everyone

to think about them and how they

698

perceive the world and why they

perceive the world the way they do.

699

Because we're conditioned.

700

I'm sorry, that's not any news, but it is

not something people like to hear because

701

we all are convinced we have a free world.

702

Which we do in a certain way.

703

It's just, we are also like, we

depend on our culture and it's

704

also important to have a culture.

705

It's very important.

706

It's very important to have

rituals and traditions.

707

It's important for us.

708

There's a reason why we have Monday

to Sunday, like to Sunday is a week.

709

And Sunday is the day where

we're not doing anything because

710

we need a structure as a human.

711

But, yeah, I think it's still very

important to, to question certain things

712

and but not to judge necessarily others,

this is at least what I've learned in my

713

education program to become a systemic

counselor where you try to understand

714

systems and how they work and how we

all perceive the world differently

715

because we all have different experience,

but we shouldn't judge someone else.

716

Except if it comes to harmful behavior or

something like this, does that make sense?

717

Tali: Oh, yeah, definitely.

718

Definitely.

719

Okay, let's talk about why you think

people lack interest in Bitcoin.

720

Liv: So as I already said, we are

Part of this community, part of the

721

system we are in, and our nervous

system is constantly looking in our

722

environment for certain cues which are

showing us if we are safe or not safe.

723

So we go out into the world, for example,

we go into town, and if there is a

724

person who screams, Our nervous systems

immediately and also in a subconscious

725

way, detecting there's something going

on and you might have experienced that

726

something changes in the body all of

sudden, we're a bit like we're tensing

727

up like we're a little nervous.

728

So there's an nervous system

kicking in right away, and we

729

can't do anything about it.

730

That is very inherent in us.

731

And it is the autonomic nervous

system which plays a very

732

important role in that moment.

733

And the autonomic nervous system

means that we cannot impact it.

734

It will regulate our heartbeat

and we can't do anything about it.

735

It works on its own.

736

And so the autonomic nervous

system is constantly detecting

737

if we are safe or not.

738

and.

739

We have created a system where we have a

retirement plan, we have bank accounts,

740

and the bank is taking care of our money,

have hospitals, we have a great medical

741

system, and we have a great food system,

we have all the time the option to go

742

into the supermarket and to buy food.

743

And the thing is, our autonomic nervous

system is detecting now, I am safe, I

744

have all those systems set in place.

745

And they will help me if I'm in a

dangerous situation like I, I will be

746

okay because I can go into the hospital.

747

I can do this or that.

748

And then we've been coming around and

we're saying, yeah I don't know if

749

I would trust in that bank system.

750

The inflation, this is just, it's just not

going to work really well on the long run.

751

The system will eventually crash.

752

And what is happening in someone like.

753

When it comes to money,

it impacts everything.

754

It impacts the food system, the

medical system and everything.

755

And we are triggering the

autonomic nervous system because

756

the autonomic nervous system is

out of a sudden detecting danger.

757

And the interesting part is that we think

that the autonomic nervous system is just.

758

regulating our heartbeat

or our gut activity, but it

759

also impacts how we behave.

760

So for example, if someone is super

nervous, their voice will change,

761

their behavior will change, their

gesture and mimic will change,

762

and the person will also perceive

their environment differently.

763

So if I have a patient who has a super

stressful time and I already feel that

764

in the person because he's super nervous.

765

His voice is different than usually.

766

He will likely perceive my

gesture and mimic different.

767

And he, like we see that in people

with depression that they judge neutral

768

behavior more as something negative.

769

So they think a person didn't like them,

even though their behavior was neutral.

770

And so someone who, whose autonomic

nervous system we are triggering

771

might even perceive us differently

than we are actually are.

772

And so I think this is something so

inherent in us and so conditioned

773

that, yeah we have to be Very careful.

774

And that is why I think it is so

important to look at the bigger picture.

775

And this is my philosophy.

776

If we are questioning the current

system, and we show the people that

777

their Safety cues in their environment

might be danger cues We have to

778

present them a whole new system rather

than just to say Bitcoin is good.

779

And this is why I love the work of

Katie the Russian, who's always doing

780

those underground Citadel events

right before the Bitcoin conferences.

781

And she's showing in those, doing those

events that we have to improve our medical

782

system and we can like we have now crowd

health as a as a health insurance or like

783

it's not a health insurance, but it's

Healthcare supporter, I don't know how to

784

call them but they help people to pay off

their bills and to be like a community.

785

And so I think that with crowd health and.

786

And Texas Slim, who's improving the

the food system by connecting farmers

787

with each other and other people who

try to provide for this community

788

that we actually create a whole new

system or with homeschooling, like

789

homeschooling is a big part too.

790

And I really appreciate that.

791

For example, you and your husband

are so focused on that because that

792

improves our school system again.

793

And so we take away those safety

cues, but we present new ones.

794

And I think this is how it is

important to approach people.

795

And I'm not here as a psychologist

to, to tell Bitcoiner on

796

how to manipulate people.

797

Not at all.

798

I'm just trying to give an idea of why

we are sometimes running against the wall

799

and are not getting closer to the people.

800

Though we know that it might be

interesting to just think about this topic

801

of Bitcoin and maybe just learn about it.

802

And that's all I am asking people

to do, to question themselves and

803

how far Yeah, Bitcoin might help us.

804

Tali: I really resonated with what you

said about how, if you are depressed or

805

if you're anxious, you will view someone's

neutral reaction as something negative.

806

That is so true.

807

And yet, like what you're saying before

too, that it is such a part of ourselves.

808

We are not even aware that we're doing it.

809

We're not even aware that our

perception has changed because it's

810

just happening in in the background.

811

away from our conscious awareness.

812

That's really cool.

813

That what a great way to frame it.

814

Let's talk about That second point that

you told me you can cover, which is why

815

Bitcoin can establish a better system.

816

I know we already touched upon

different things, but would

817

you like to expand on that?

818

Liv: a lot of bitcoiners are

questioning the system in a lot of ways.

819

So on the one hand, The school system

is lacking a lot of important aspects,

820

and so homeschooling is becoming

a bigger part of the community.

821

Then the Beef Initiative and other

Bitcoiners, like here in Michigan,

822

too, are focused on whole foods,

on good foods, on local foods.

823

And you we see that in

the community a lot.

824

people are considering what can I eat?

825

And also Seyfeddin Amus, he is

talking about this a lot in his

826

book, The Fiat Standard how our food

consumption or what we eat has changed

827

and how this impacts our health.

828

And regarding this point, I

can just say it's very true.

829

We see from my point of view,

I don't know any study on it.

830

So that's just my perception.

831

I see that more and more people

get the diagnosed cancer.

832

And I know there are a lot of studies out

there showing that cancer is Occurring

833

when people have not enough different

bacteria, good bacterias in their gut.

834

So we have in our gut those

little microbiomes, the bacterias,

835

and we have good and bad ones.

836

And the good ones are

very important for us.

837

They help us to produce.

838

For example, neurotransmitters for

our brain, for example, serotonin or

839

dopamine, that we actually feel good.

840

That's the reason why sometimes people

have depression right after they took

841

antibiotics, because they kill off

the good bacteria, they can't produce

842

serotonin anymore, and they get depressed.

843

And those bacteria are very

important for us to not have cancer.

844

And with the food we are consuming right

now we are not really supporting the

845

growth and the, or we are not really

maintaining our good microbiomes.

846

And I think this is also something where

the Fiat system, the system we're living

847

in right now is failing, that they

are prescribing too many antibiotics,

848

and that we have foods out there who

do not provide those good microbiomes

849

anymore, like whole milk, like good

fresh milk has so many microbiomes in it.

850

It's very important and also fresh

air, but also this is changing because

851

we are most of the time inside and

we are not working outside anymore.

852

So we are actually

breathing in good bacterias.

853

It sounds funny.

854

I know, but it is the truth.

855

And then it exchanges is

in our body with our gut.

856

And so I think that a lot of

bitcoiners are questioning that

857

and are not going with the flow.

858

Dr.

859

Martin Seligman, he is the president

of the American Association

860

for Psychology, the APA, and

he has a very good reputation.

861

He's high up.

862

He was voted in this Position

of being a president of the A.

863

P.

864

A.

865

The highest quote ever.

866

So and he has formulated a

lot of incredibly interesting

867

theories on psychology.

868

And he's saying it doesn't really

matter what studies show, it

869

matters what people want to believe.

870

And this is a big problem, and I think

Bitcoiners are escaping this and are like,

871

what are actually the studies showing

us, and how should we live our life?

872

So that's regarding the medical aspect,

that we are questioning the system,

873

and we provide a new system where we

actually look at the studies, and , we

874

wanna Look how things go on the long

run rather than just for now, like if

875

people have an infection, of course,

an antibiotic will help quickly.

876

But what is happening with the health

of that person on the long run?

877

And I think this is a big one.

878

We have to think long

term and not short term.

879

But humans tend to always go for the

short term decision, releases dopamine

880

and it is very hard to inhibit it.

881

The desire to go for it right now,

rather than to wait and to decide

882

for something in the long run.

883

Yeah, I think we create a new system

in a certain way automatically.

884

And there are a lot of overlapping.

885

Interests in Bitcoiners like good

food and alternative medicine

886

, growing things in a biodynamic way.

887

Connecting farmers with each other

and all those kind of things.

888

And also, of course, to have a

healthy money and to think about

889

what changes in our system if we use

Bitcoin as a healthy and hard money.

890

We are living towards something and

we save towards something rather than

891

just to spend and to enjoy life right

now, but do not think about the future.

892

Tali: I feel like you've summarized the

best parts of Bitcoin, but I'll just go

893

ahead and ask the last question anyway,

what would you say to women who are

894

still sitting on the fence about Bitcoin?

895

Liv: I can, I encourage people

just to question things.

896

As a psychologist I like to ask

questions to to help people.

897

To go into into certain topics and to

develop and to experience their own path.

898

So I can just encourage people to

question, are we that rational,

899

or are we maybe irrational?

900

And if we are making mistakes, and

if we are maybe affected by group

901

thinking, Why is that the case?

902

And what are the consequences

of us doing that?

903

What are the consequences, for

example, of accepting always the

904

flu shot if it's recommended?

905

Do we know the consequences?

906

Is it very necessary to get

the flu shot right away?

907

And all those kind of

things questioning things.

908

And I think that, to answer how

I would reply to that question.

909

I think we are irrational in a lot of

ways, and I think that, for example,

910

to decide how much money the government

should print is a very rough question,

911

and it is always that decisions always

affected by a lot of emotional content.

912

So if, for example, our minister is going

to Ukraine and seeing all the suffering

913

there, which is very horrible and then

has to decide how much money do we

914

print or how much money do we give them?

915

This cannot be a rational question

because but the problem is That we want

916

to save the world because we're, in

general, very altruistic human beings.

917

We want to help everyone.

918

We don't want to see anyone suffer.

919

The problem is just, I cannot give

anything if I have to take care of my own

920

people first and to look out for those

poor people rather than to print money.

921

The rich one can profit off of that,

and the poor ones are suffering more.

922

And we create this disbalance.

923

Which is actually making everything

worse, but we have helped someone at

924

the same time, and this is what making

what's making it so hard because you

925

sound horrible if you say that we have

to consider how much money we spend on

926

donations and of course we should donate,

but we also like it's a bigger picture

927

we have to consider a lot of aspects.

928

And so I think that We have

to question those things.

929

We have to question if what

we have learned so far in life

930

is how it should go or not.

931

And yeah, I can just say that on

the long run, it will be a way

932

more fulfilling life if we are

living towards a Bitcoin standard.

933

So we see in studies that the life

satisfaction is not really increasing.

934

I don't exactly know the numbers,

but if people, for example, earn 80,

935

000 a year, approximately, it doesn't

matter how much more money they earn,

936

it won't change their well being.

937

This is what study shows it.

938

So well being doesn't really

correlate from Above the 80,

939

000 with the income anymore.

940

Underneath that it does.

941

So people have to have a certain

amount of money to be able to stay

942

alive and to have the option to

live or work towards something.

943

And then.

944

Yeah, that is important to have in that

moment, the the monetary support and to

945

be able to grow to establish well being.

946

But everything above that

doesn't really make a difference.

947

And I think it is

important to consider this.

948

And to know we might be more

happy with less in a certain way.

949

And I think this is what

is so great about Bitcoin.

950

We can afford something, we can predict

our future, because the Bitcoin we

951

have, this is what we will have always.

952

The part of the big portion.

953

And we can develop something

and live towards something.

954

And so I think it will help us just to

grow to know, yeah, what we can expect.

955

Tali: Yeah, I think Bitcoin allows

us to live and plan past this moment.

956

If you're living the FIAS standard,

you almost Can only live in this

957

moment because looking forward, there's

inflation you don't know how much right

958

but Bitcoin allows you to live past

this moment and plan for the future and

959

then you're Then given the liberty to

stand back and look at Larger picture

960

overall than just the tunnel vision of

this moment and your survival in this

961

moment So it sounds like that's what

you're saying is Question everything

962

because you got to look longer term.

963

You got a look Bigger picture

So would you agree with that?

964

Liv: Yeah, of course.

965

Yeah, we have to look at the

bigger picture and long term.

966

We have to think in the long run.

967

It's just also our current system,

which is not supporting the idea of.

968

Of Bitcoin, I think it is

important to question that system.

969

That's all I ask people to do for now.

970

Ask, is inflation good?

971

Or is it maybe not good?

972

And what are the advantages

and disadvantages of that?

973

And I think at the moment, why people

disagree so much with Bitcoiners is

974

because everyone is saying the system

we're in right now is good and it

975

comes down to the behavior people

to actually be able to judge if

976

this current system is good or not.

977

If I understand the behavior of the

human on a very deep level, then I can

978

actually decide If the system we're

in right now is good or not, if I

979

understand that people are in a certain

way, willing to look out for their

980

future and if they can't predict the

future because the money isn't stable

981

enough, then they will want to create

more and want to buy more and more houses.

982

And then we create that gap between

rich and poor and that's not giving

983

us in any way, still stability, but

because then that's the big question- is

984

that real estate market stable or not?

985

So all those kinds of different

things, which will be the big solution,

986

like investing in real estate, for

example, could also crash, so people

987

will get more and more greedy.

988

In compared to that, I hope

because I think the humans are very

989

altruistic and giving and helping

people is the best antidepressants

990

out there on the market right now.

991

The altruistic part of us cannot be

triggered if we do not feel safe.

992

So if I do not have a system

I live in where I can predict

993

something, then I'm not feeling

safe and then I can't be altruistic.

994

And this is what is destroying

us right now in a certain way.

995

Tali: Thank you so much.

996

That was so helpful.

997

I love the way you frame that.

998

And I hope our listeners will

begin to question what they perceive

999

to be reality a little bit more.

01:02:08,934 --> 01:02:10,674

So thank you so much for your time.

01:02:10,674 --> 01:02:11,824

I really appreciate it.

01:02:12,324 --> 01:02:14,004

Liv: Yeah, it was really

great talking to you.

01:02:14,014 --> 01:02:15,574

Thank you so much for having me on.

01:02:16,861 --> 01:02:18,601

Tali: Thank you for

listening to this episode.

01:02:18,931 --> 01:02:19,861

Did you enjoy it?

01:02:20,071 --> 01:02:22,261

Wasn't our guest absolutely fabulous.

01:02:22,291 --> 01:02:24,781

I just love every woman's

story on this show.

01:02:25,051 --> 01:02:28,531

Everybody has a unique perspective

and yet, we all come to the same

01:02:28,531 --> 01:02:31,558

place, which is Bitcoin is an

important part of our lives.

01:02:31,948 --> 01:02:34,285

If this story has inspired you

and you would like to know

01:02:34,285 --> 01:02:37,675

more, go to www.orangehatter.com.

01:02:38,095 --> 01:02:38,905

Get involved.

01:02:39,065 --> 01:02:42,115

Join and our reading group, send

me an email and introduce yourself.

01:02:42,373 --> 01:02:44,233

I will be so happy to hear from you.

01:02:44,547 --> 01:02:49,100

The best way you can support this

show is to spread the word Tell

01:02:49,150 --> 01:02:50,816

every woman, you know, to listen in.

01:02:51,056 --> 01:02:54,206

You never know how they will

be impacted by these stories.

01:02:54,553 --> 01:02:56,173

I appreciate you so much.

01:02:56,293 --> 01:02:57,433

See you next time.

01:02:57,463 --> 01:02:58,003

Bye.