Aaron, Chris, and Wade discuss the vital role that baristas play in the coffee industry. From the skills of making coffee to the emotional labor of handling adults who don't otherwise know how to handle themselves, baristas make coffee delightful on a number of levels. However, they also discuss how baristas are woefully under-supported for the many roles they are expected to play in the industry.

IF YOU ARE A BARISTA AND YOU WANT TO JOIN THIS CONVERSATION: REACH OUT TO US! We would like to talk to baristas about your experiences making coffee delightful day in and day out. Even if you don't want to do a full interview, you can write to us or simply answer a couple of questions. You deserve to be heard, and we are listening.

Shoutouts

Ugly Duck (@uglyduckcoffee) - AM:FM (@amfm_coffee) - Joe Bean Roasters (@joebeanroasters) - New City Cafe & Roastery (@newcityroc) - Fuego Coffee Roasters (@fuegocoffee)

Mentioned in this episode:

Joe Bean Roasters

Visit joebeanroasters.com to get fresh roasted specialty coffee either by the bag or with a Perpetual Joy subscription!

Food About Town

Food About Town hosted by Chris Lindstrom, focusing on restaurants, food and drink of all kinds, and whatever topics I want to cover! https://foodabouttown.captivate.fm/

There he is.

Welcome to Dialed in.

I'm Wade Reed.

I'm Aaron Pascucci.

And we're putting it together however we can again tonight because I am slightly under the weather, running a low grade fever.

First.

First day of a low grade fever and didn't want to make my brothers in the bean too sick.

So here we are.

We've got weeks going.

How's your week going, Aaron?

I've been doing great, actually.

I had a lot of really just good things going on at school.

Most of my kids are, like, motivated and doing what they want.

So, like, I walk in and I'm just facilitating them doing things they want to do.

It's like a dream for a teacher, right?

Yeah.

I mean, if they're.

If they're motivated, I feel like that's got to be like, half the job just being like, no, this is a thing you should learn, right?

Yeah.

Or like, here's a fun way to learn.

Yeah, any of that.

And sometimes I get to manipulate them into doing cool things I want to learn.

So, like, I've been wanting to do, like, bleach tie dye for, like, months and months.

And I was like, hey, who wants to do tie dye?

And five of them were like, me.

I do.

I'm like, perfect.

That's great, Chris.

How.

How's your week?

Oh, man.

Week's okay.

About prepping to go to New Orleans for the first time, so I'm really looking forward to that.

I expect the beignet report.

Yeah, you know what?

I spent a good amount of time looking into coffee, and there is a bit of a scene that's going even with all the, you know, standard New Orleans stuff.

So I'm intrigued to try that out and see how it goes, because it's obviously town not known for specialty coffee, but one I'm excited to go visit.

And then just got back from Pittsburgh last weekend and went for Pittsburgh Fringe.

I did a bunch of previews for that and got to go to a few places there.

Now that scene is starting to pop real good.

There's a couple.

Couple really interesting new places that our friend Bob from Ugly Duck gave me to go to and really, really enjoyed visiting that.

You know, it's definitely an improving coffee scene.

Oh, that's awesome.

Yeah.

And those Fringe episodes on Just can't not were really good.

They were really interesting.

I mean, obviously it's things that don't overlap with my interests.

And I'm listening to this going like, why is this so compelling?

But I think you did an excellent job.

I think the people you interviewed did an excellent job.

And, yeah, I can absolutely see why, just listening to those, someone would want to go.

So that's really cool that you got to head down there and check that out.

Yeah.

And to be honest, I'm kind of hoping to do more.

I'm going to reach out to one step, bigger fringe than Rochester, and see if I can start to get involved.

Because I've.

I've been loving the process.

I mean, interviewing interesting people who are doing the thing just because they can and want to.

I mean, that's everything I love in creative outlets and why shouldn't I feel like I can contribute to what the, you know, to that infrastructure of fringe in a more robust way?

So I'm really excited to see what else I can do with it.

That's terrific.

Yeah, it's.

It's been good.

I. I remember the ones before Rochester Fringe were also super.

Just like, captivating.

Like, you could just really lock in on those.

Like, I enjoyed them quite a bit.

So while we're not talking about coffee, can I.

Can I give you guys, like, you know, my other love is baseball, Right?

Yeah.

Yes.

And I wanted to real quick shout something out that happened baseball wise.

So were you guys familiar with the World Baseball Classic?

Kind of like the World cup for baseball, you know?

Yeah, I'm familiar.

Yeah.

Like a lot of.

So there were however many teams, 16, I think they played pool play.

They got.

Eight of them got through the tournament.

Venezuela won against Team USA in the final.

Awesome game.

Loved that game.

Even though Team USA lost.

But one of the more interesting storylines was Team Italy, which is really funny because you wouldn't expect Team Italy to have a great baseball team.

Most of the Italian players were Americans with Italian names.

I remember sending a roster to someone and they were like, did they just, like, they just pick anyone with an Italian enough sounding name?

And it turned out I think they went back, like two generations.

So, like, you're great, maybe three generations.

Like your great grandparents.

If one of them was born in Italy, you could play for the team, which was, like, really cool because they got a lot of major league players.

They made it to the semifinal.

It was really cool.

They did a home run celebration where every time you hit a home run, you go in the dugout.

And Vinnie Pasquintino, that's the first baseman and captain's actual name, he plays for the Kansas City Royals.

He's a total vibes guy.

I love him.

He pulled a shot of espresso.

What?

Great.

Yeah, I'm sure it was Just pods, right?

Sure.

But they would pull espresso, and you'd have to drink the shot of espresso every time you hit a home run.

Then they started putting the numbers of every player who hit a home run on this espresso machine.

Right.

This POD espresso machine.

And then they auctioned it off after the tournament.

Yes.

And they raised funds for the Southwest Autism Research and Resource Center.

Oh, my gosh.

Which I was just like, you know, if you love coffee, if you love baseball, like me, like, this is just the ultimate feel good story.

I'm, like, so excited.

The bidding, like, started at 5,000.

I have had a hard time tracking down what it went for, but, yeah, it's just really cool for them to take that aspect of their vibes and their fun and just this cool international play for baseball and do some good with it.

I also love the idea that as long as your name's close enough and go back a few generations, yeah, you can play for our team.

It's perfectly fine.

I mean, it really was funny.

Well, the honest truth is, by those standards, I could have played.

Absolutely would have made it.

And my great grandparents were the ones who were born there and came over perfect.

I'm pretty sure there was a Santucci as a pitcher.

There was an Alighieri, there was Caglioni.

Like, it was awesome.

They were so much fun.

But that's where my two worlds met.

And I had to sport, you know, the Red Wings hat tonight.

Yeah.

And every time somebody walked, he said, oh, I'm walking here.

That's how Italian they are.

Is like, they're all Jersey Italians.

What's more for you, since you brought it up, besides the home run celebration, you know, usually when you get on base, you do something to the dugout.

You make some kind of gesture to the dugout.

Right.

So, like, the Dodgers have their, like, wave thing in the.

In the, like, right now, the Red Sox have this, like, they put their hands up like this, and you can either do a hip thrust or you can do this.

And that goes back to, like, one of their most famous players was on TikTok.

Like, you got TikTok famous doing this dance that had, like, this weird tip thrust in it.

The Italian team, what do you think their single double, like, from the bases celebration was?

Yeah, yeah, buddy.

There was the two fingers and the thumb.

It was so good.

They just leaned into a bunch of stereotypes.

Like, even when they would win, they would play.

They would play opera, of course.

Fantastic.

Just leaned into every stereotype.

And then to do Some good with the, with the espresso machine.

I just, you know, love it, love it for them.

That's so great.

I got a. Oh, keep going.

No, go ahead.

I was going to say, I got a fun coffee story today.

So I was at work and needed some help on something.

I'm doing IEP write ups and so, you know, born science teacher, now I'm making stuff.

No special ed, formal training.

Right.

So I go to one of my co workers, I said, hey, could really use some help on this IEP stuff.

I also am going to do a special on the down syndrome chat.

So I got my dad's chat coming up tomorrow.

We got 35 dads who are going to show up on Zoom.

It's going to be awesome.

But the next episode I want to go over IEP stuff for all their kids, right.

So I come back and she goes, I go, you know, let me know if I can do anything for you.

And she looks at me, she goes, I need some of your coffee.

Is this the same one who needed a cup of coffee and you made some of the Pacimura yeast maceration?

No, the best.

I don't know if it's the best part of the second best part.

It's a different coworker.

So like it's getting around that, you know, I've got like specialty coffee sitting in my, my room ready to brew.

So you're the plug.

I wanted to throw back two things to our last podcast.

Um, I referenced a YouTube guy and his full name is Lance Hedrick.

Lance Hedrick.

Yeah, he was the guy I referenced as new James Hoffman, so to speak.

But I don't even know if that's a fair comparison.

No, but he's, he's a very creative guy and also does, I think, does a really nice job with his, with content.

I think he does pretty detailed reviews.

So it's, you know, certainly somebody worth looking into.

Definitely worth looking into.

I like watching him.

He's fairly entertaining.

I don't feel spoken down to, you know, he speaks at a, a good level for understanding and things.

Awesome.

The other thing is that drink that I got at Ugly Duck was the channel orange.

So if you're, you know, baristas or coffee shops listening to this, here's what this drink is.

It's espresso, salted bergamot, caramel sauce, orange bitters, salt and your choice of milk.

So.

And it is a delight.

I have had the pleasure of having that and it's, it's really, really tasty.

10 Minutes.

First ugly duck mention.

I know that's pretty good.

I was going to, I was going to, I was going to throw something out there.

I was like maybe I should just let it go slide under and we'll see what happens there.

So.

I've actually spent a little bit of time at the bar at AM FM and had a couple people bring that drink about of like from Ugly Duck up to me as really this is like a cool thing that they've made.

Yeah, it's, it's interesting because it sounds kind of simple.

It's almost like that drink that Marvin was telling us about at, at oh, what was the place that he went to?

Well, I'm definitely not feeling right.

The one in California.

Yeah, but that drink, it sounds really simple but then like it's just, you know, like apparently when you have it it's just super tasty, memorable and, and bring something out.

Well and it's all about execution, right?

Yeah.

So I got another fun question for you.

So over the break there I went to visit my brother in Connecticut.

Actually Chris, you might know this.

He took me to a pastry place called Julian's.

No, I haven't heard of it.

So he was telling me that this guy's been interviewed by like Food Network and Food and Wine and you know, he's gonna blow.

He's blowing up.

And they had to move from like his garage basically to this new space which is huge.

I asked for a espresso and I got it in a plastic or not a plastic cup but a paper cup, like a to go cup.

And my thought was is it ever appropriate to give an espresso in a to go cup?

I mean if you're taking it to go.

Yeah, but, but I guess the, the larger question is should you be taking it to go?

Right?

I mean it's, it's an ounce and a half or two ounces of liquid.

My, my personal opinion is yeah, I, if there is an option, I obviously want to have it in some sort of non plastic, I mean non paper cup if I can help it and preferably in a plastic.

Right.

But you know, I understand that some places only do things to go.

So it is what it is.

I don't, I don't find it as pleasurable, especially something I want to enjoy there for a second and you know, attack it and go for it.

It's just like where you know, if you go.

When I would order like steak or something else, this.

How would you like your cooked?

I'm like properly like, you know what you do, you know what you're doing, Cook it the right way.

Yeah, like I want it the right way.

Give it to me.

I like, would you like it, you know, here to go?

I'm like, I'm not a terrible person.

I would like it here if I have the option.

I think if you have the option and you don't have to immediately leave and you have like two minutes, don't be a terrible person.

Drink out of a ceramic cup.

It's a delight.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, I have like the worst reputation for being the worst snob ever when it comes to these things.

I do think it's proper to drink it out of ceramic or glass or not paper, however.

Have you guys been to kopani yet?

No.

I saw you did and I was super jealous.

Same.

Yeah, I have been twice and the reason I went twice because the first shot I got of their ache was so good I had to go back and try it again.

I liked, I liked the milk drinks.

I got to got a bag from them too.

You know, it's awesome because of how the city kind of makes them work out their thing, right?

Like they have to be classified as a pop up, which means they can't have any seating, which means like what would the point of ceramic be for them?

Sure.

Is that right?

So the two espressos I've had from them, which were excellent, just excellent, were both in paper.

So I feel like, you know, just, just fate is, is forcing me to change my view on this.

I do think.

I obviously think it's proper to drink espresso out of non paper, non plastic.

But yeah, some of the best shots I've had lately have been in paper.

So I love to say about, hey, shout out to.

Shout out to shops that are to go only whether by choice or not by choice.

Yeah, exactly.

And the drink I was thinking of is at Hooked Venice.

That's.

That's what it was that Marvin was telling us about.

Hooked Venice.

Cool.

So we've gone 15 minutes without even getting into our topic.

It's a great start.

Yeah, I love that.

But awesome, awesome thoughts.

I mean, yeah, real quick, shout out to that coffee.

The coffee they sent me, which was great, was those guys coffee.

So shout out to them and then when you get bored, look up a wega W E G A Espresso machines.

That was the other thing I, I would notice was interesting.

So pretty cool.

And if you want one of those espresso machines, I have a hookup with a wholesale warehouse.

Oh, look at that.

Yeah, I've actually been looking into those lately because they're on the cheapish side and trying to figure out if some of my wholesale or potential wholesale.

Want to go with that, with the.

I've always said it.

Wega.

Is it wega?

I don't know if they want direction.

I speak like the suburban white guy I am, you know, So I don't.

See what's saying these things wrong.

I don't know.

Like, that's not.

That's not like Simonelli.

Right.

So for our topic tonight, I just want to briefly introduce this with a conversation that we had on Instagram.

And actually, I say we.

I think it was you and Rory.

Aaron just had a little back and forth about, like, Rory saying, you know, oh, he got mentioned again.

And then he basically had a recommendation that we need to talk to baristas more.

Yep, we are.

Which we had mentioned on the last one, too.

What's that?

We had mentioned reaching out to some people from, like, Beady and Bose and some other coffee baristas, so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So, you know, I saw that message, and I reached out to Rory and he and I talked a little bit about it.

He says, and he's right.

We're owner heavy on this podcast.

We talk to people who are getting into the business of coffee.

We talk to people, you know, whose ambitions in coffee have taken them kind of to that level.

I was thinking about it.

I think, is it only three of our guests never didn't have, like, coffee businesses or had never had coffee businesses?

So, like, Bob, Mary, and Janine.

Yeah.

Is that right?

Yeah.

So, like, everyone else either is like a shop owner, roastery, or, like, is.

Has, like, some coffee brand or business that they're at the top of.

So, like.

Yep.

I think Rory probably, you know, good point.

And we're 17 minutes in.

First, Rory mentioned.

So again, we're doing great, guys.

Yeah.

But, you know, it got me thinking about baristas and why a barista might want to go on a podcast like ours.

Like, what is like.

Or what kind of barista might want to be on this podcast?

And it.

It kind of got me, you know, I took a step back and I'm like, what.

What do baristas do?

You know, like, Right.

What is it that they do with coffee that.

That is germane to, like, what we talk about or that.

That they might want to talk to us about?

What is it that you say you do here?

I wanted to go there.

So what would you say you do here?

Do you make coffee?

Dude, my judge should make more movies.

I I was thinking about like the baristas task, right.

Like we kind of, you know, we've dived into a lot of what owners do.

They set the vision, they have like a taste that they want to replicate or create or, you know, kind of promulgate in the world.

We, you know, they have to cover all the business side things.

They have to do all the hiring and all the training.

You know, we know, kind of we've covered that a lot.

And I came up with this phrase, and I'll just let you guys react to it before I start to break it down.

But I believe that the baristas task is to make coffee delightful.

I was looking at the little cheat sheet you gave us and I love the way you think about stuff and you got it broken down into different delights here.

I agree with that for a lot of it, for what it is.

Yeah.

I think that the word is, I think a great choice.

Especially those that are dedicated to doing that, you know, even if this isn't a forever thing, being dedicated to it while you're doing it is making coffee delightful.

And I think where I was trying to figure out with that is I don't like delightful in and of itself because surface level, it seems like it's covering up something almost.

Right.

Like I'm going to sugarcoat this so that you like it in a way and I think you're going to dispel this a little bit.

What I like about the word though is if you think about it, it really is the idea of creating an experience.

Right.

And with that is going to come so many different aspects of interaction and communication.

And since we're talking about coffee preparation and things like that.

Right.

Delivering an experience like we all know, a good and a bad experience, I could tell you about the worst, literally the worst restaurant experience I've ever had, which was like two weeks, like a couple months ago.

But, you know, and we can all tell you the best cup of coffee we've ever had.

So.

Yeah.

And that's where I was thinking, kind of dovetailing with that is it's not making coffee necessarily delightful.

I think it is making a delightful experience.

But that's also, I don't think, you know, really depends on which thing.

Because if you go into, if you go into a high volume shop, you know, the person who is taking your order is a big part of your experience, but they might not be making your drink in any way, shape or form.

Right, right.

So you've got the people who are, you know, taking your order You've got people who are doing pour overs.

You have people who are just, you know, pouring batch into cups.

You have the people who are pulling shots, and you might have somebody even doing something else.

So, like, each, you know, each part of the process is contributing to your overall experience, but, you know, each person doesn't touch coffee necessarily in every moment of your time there.

So I think to me, it's.

Everybody's contributing to the experience, and hopefully, you know, each step is contributing to a great coffee experience as well.

But I think the overall experience is what they are providing.

So that's, you know, it's.

These are all subtle differences, of course, but I think that's where I would lie on that, you know.

Yes, it's a delightful experience, but delightful is different for every person.

Sure, absolutely.

That's the read and react.

That's where I think the best servers and restaurants, the best people you're interacting with, the people who are keeping the workflow going and bantering with you while it's going on.

It's master level stuff.

So I'm excited to dive in and hear your rubric.

Yeah.

So I totally.

I think I agree with a lot of what you just said, and that is what led me to the word delightful.

I think saying enjoyable is a little bit of a different experience because when you.

When you delight in something, maybe even like some of the stupidest things about it, bring something out in you.

You know what I mean?

Like when you spread delight, it doesn't have to be.

I don't think it has to be tied to, like, the enjoyment of.

Of the core product of the drink.

You guys just froze up on me.

Yeah.

Or any one aspect, you know, like the vibe, the design, like, delight, part.

Of it can be from a ceramic cup versus a paper cup.

Yeah.

Those little things make a difference.

Right?

Like that, those little touches, the thoughtfulness.

But that's also the choice of.

That's the choice of the shop, not the barista themselves.

Sure.

And I think if we isolate to what the barista has control over, I think that's where.

That's where personality comes in.

That's where skill comes in.

It is using.

Using what's provided to you in the best way or in, you know, an efficiently.

Efficiently very good way.

And that's where it's also like, yeah, we like a ceramic cup.

That's not the choice of the barista, that we can have a ceramic cup or not.

So, like, that's.

I think that's.

It's easy to go into the whole Experience.

But how are they making it better?

How are they making you feel?

And sometimes it is feeling.

And yeah, obviously pulling a good shot and making a good pour over or doing that stuff.

Yeah, of course.

That's a huge part of that.

Yeah, absolutely.

So that's where it starts.

Right.

Like the skill of making coffee, like the sensory delight.

And like, what does a barista have to know?

Right.

They have to know how to use the tools and the machines.

They have to know how to taste it so they can dial it in.

They have to, like, know the basic principles in theory.

Hey, if this isn't working, I'm dialing this in.

This doesn't taste good.

How do I make it taste better?

Right.

And not always how can I make it taste exactly how I want?

But sometimes it's just, well, better than this thing I'm getting that I'm not liking.

So, like, super high bar on skills.

The sensory delight sets a very high bar on skills.

But we have to recognize there are plenty of shops out there where none of these skills are operative.

And they're still making people delight in the experience of their coffee shop.

Like, there's still baristas out there who are just a delight to the people around them.

Yep.

Even though they like.

Either they don't know how to make coffee or the people making it, the person making it doesn't know how to make coffee.

Right.

So, like, that, I mean, that is.

Is.

Is not entirely uncommon with.

With a super high bar, you know, on the skill of making coffee and on sensory delight.

So that's where I think we get into kind of the next one, the social delight, like the hospitality to guide the guests, to be welcoming, to make sure everyone feels like if I have to.

If, you know, if I have to interact with this person, it's going to be a safe interaction, it's going to be a positive interaction.

And then the ability to make conversation and be empathetic and be like, you're, you know, you might be in a huge hurry and just want your drip.

You might be in a place where you have no idea what you want and we have to guide you through this process.

You might be in a place where you just need some human connection.

Right.

And there's a huge line, maybe we don't have time for that.

So how do I, in a very short amount of time, make the human connection?

So empathy's huge.

And then there's the patience for, you know, the guy.

Yeah, yeah.

The people like, listen, I love my sister, but her drink is the Starbucks.

Caramel macchiato.

She's gonna walk into my shop.

It's not mine, but like, the shop I'm affiliated with, AM fm.

She's gonna be like, where's the caramel macchiato?

You know, like, what can I get?

Or like, you know, the person who comes in and is like, I just want something light and sweet.

Right.

So, like, the patience to be like, how do I guide this?

It's all like.

What it boils down to is all so much emotional labor that we put on baristas.

Absolutely.

And I.

It's a burden that hits them.

Like, if a slow day is like 50 interactions as a roaster.

That sounds horrible.

Right?

I know that would take me out, man.

So, like.

Well, and it goes the other way too.

I stopped into AM FM last Friday or two.

I think I just missed you by like 10 minutes.

Just Josiah said.

Yeah, and Josiah was in there and it was like, sort of dead.

Right?

There was a couple people and he recognized me.

So we were chatting back and forth and it was like 10, 15 minutes and I was like, I want to keep talking to you.

I haven't gotten to know you that well and this is awesome.

Great space to do this.

Right.

And Right.

I was like.

I could tell he kind of wanted the connection a little bit.

I hope he did, since I'm putting this on him.

Which is going to go to my second point, by the way.

And I was like, I gotta go.

Like, I gotta get on the road.

I'm going to Connecticut.

Right.

Um, but it goes the other way.

Like, I walk into a shop and maybe I know the barista, maybe I don't.

Or maybe I know their name because I go in a bit and I'm expecting.

I'm expecting an interaction.

Right.

I'm going there to see that social interaction.

And everybody might be doing that.

Right.

If you have like 10 people coming in to talk to Bob at Ugly Duck, he might be having a bad day and not want to do that.

Yeah, exactly.

Like, you can't imagine, like, just the energy it must take.

And like, I know for some people that's very energy giving.

Right?

Sure.

Extrovert.

Introvert.

Yeah.

Baristas don't have a choice.

You know what I mean?

It's not like they can be like, sorry, I'm an introverted barista.

You're going to have to talk to that person.

Unless you're Wade.

No, that's why I don't work the bar.

Right.

Like, yeah.

And that's like.

I mean, that.

That amount of like, Also like, yeah, people expect you to be up and you know, there's also the, there's a, you know, negative stereotype that will cross, you know, depending on shops.

You know, the, you know, the negative judgy, you know, the judgy person.

And I think a lot of people really spend a lot of effort to not come across that way.

And especially, hey, if you're, if you are normally a neutral, flat person.

Right.

Like I get up for podcasts and I'm doing all the thing like what I'm doing my day job.

I am just, I am neutral and flat and I do my job all day and when I'm interacting with people, it's factual and direct.

When we're doing this, yeah, it's fun and bouncy, but that's the, that's we're doing the job, we're doing the bit being up all day.

I know when, when Gary goes to conventions and she has to be up all day and people expect that energy from her, she is shot, it might be a six hour day and she is done.

It's just all over.

It's just a lot of energy, a lot of mental energy for those days.

And I'm glad you mentioned it because that is, that is work, let alone doing the rest of the job that everybody, you know, hey, the coffee part of the job.

But that mental energy is significant.

And then not only talking about, what we've also talked about is like educating without educating and then you're like on that delicate balance of you want to inform people about this amazing coffee that you might love, but you also have a line of customers, you have to do things quickly, you have to not turn them off by giving too much information.

I mean, if you're talking to me, you can't turn me off by giving me too much information.

Right, but so many people, that's fundamentally bad for their experience, right?

Oh, that, like having to read and react to every single person's interest and non interest and all that stuff.

It's.

Yeah, I'm glad.

I just look at spreadsheets most of the day.

I mean and you know, I can empathize a little bit.

I mean that's what teachers do.

Yeah, I saw 60 kids today, you know, they, they come in, I've got to gauge their emotional, you know, wherewithal every day they walk into the room and you know, all 12 of them,.

Which numbers they're counting to right now, it's confusing.

How far do you count for the current meme?

It's hard to know how can they keep up with it?

There's way too many numbers to count to.

Chris, you and I are going to switch jobs for a day.

Oh, I would love to annoy children for.

For a couple days.

These kids would eat you alive.

But you can.

Chris into your class.

But Chris, you kind of.

You kind of shaded into kind of the next category I was thinking about because I.

And honestly, I hope if we do get some baristas on the show, like, the.

The emotional labor of it all gets said.

I know that might be hard, and I know we might be biting off a little more.

More than I can chew.

It's more of a job for Chris.

He's more of like the human interest, you know, interviewer, but I think we just can't underestimate that aspect.

But when you were talking about educating, there is like an intellectual delight to it.

And this.

This category is the reason I landed on Delight.

No one necessarily enjoys lectures about coffee, but you can have knowledge about coffee and delight in it, Delight in having that knowledge.

And.

And like, you might be making the coffee and remember something about it, and that's where you have that added experience of delight.

And so, like, for me, like, having kind of the knowledge to answer people's questions whether.

But.

But I focus on coffee.

I'm like, if people have questions about coffee, there's so much more going on in a shop that barista has to know about their ingredients.

Like, do you guys make this in house?

If not, where do you buy it?

Why do you buy it from there?

Like, my cousin does this.

He makes this.

It's so much better, you know, like,.

Is it gluten free?

Is it vegan?

Do you have a vegan alternative?

Does it taste as good?

All of it?

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

All the alternatives.

Everything.

All the dietary restrictions that come into play, all the allergies.

And then there's this interesting thing.

Oh, sorry, I was going to say.

But the other thing there, though, is I feel like, along with this whole social thing, when you get that customer, even if it is the one out of the 10, when Chris walks in the room and you've got a barista who's delighting in his knowledge, that makes your whole day.

That might make your whole week.

If you get that guy who comes in is like, give me everything you've got.

And, you know, I think that's where we get back to the service aspect.

Is that barista might want to say, hey, I want to talk to you for like an hour, but I've got six other people who just want caramel macchiatos.

Right.

And so balancing that well.

And I think that's.

I 1.

I do want to take a step back.

I'm really glad this was brought up originally because I think we.

I think we have some really interesting conversations in front of us.

I think this.

All these different angles.

I. I'm just.

I'm really excited about this concept and about the topic.

So I, like, I just wanted to stop for a second, just say, this is.

This was great that it came up, and I'm excited to see how they go, and I'm excited to have them.

I mean, obviously we have friends who are actively behind the bar that are easy to get, and I. I obviously would love to talk to some of those, like, who wouldn't want to have Adam Solomon over for a while?

Like, that's.

That's a delightful thing to do.

But we also.

We have so many.

So many people we don't know that well.

And that's the part I'm equally as excited about.

Not that I'm not excited about Adam Solomon coming over, but, you know, but I think that's the thing is, like, we have so much to talk about.

What is this today versus what it was X amount of time ago?

Is it different?

Like, what's going on now versus before?

Yeah, this is just really cool.

Yeah.

The education thing is fascinating because it's every spot, every moment, every ingredient.

Everything can be education if you do it with that deft touch.

Right, right, right.

If you don't go into it like a stuffy professor, but if you go into it more based on, like, it's not a TED talk initial thing.

The empathy.

Right.

Like knowing what someone is there for and why this or that fact might be interesting.

Absolutely.

I wanted to bring up another thing.

I was talking to the owner of a coffee shop that we haven't mentioned in a long time.

New City.

This is a barista.

Well, sure.

Oh, gosh.

But the baristas at this coffee shop are in a neighborhood that is not traditionally the coffee shop going place.

Right, right.

And so not only are they fighting the, you know, the stigma of, you know, a roaster specialty coffee shop, but many of the people in the neighborhood, who is where they want to serve are probably, and I'm guessing here, not familiar with what they do and why they should come there.

And I've talked to them a couple times, and it's gone really well.

They've made a name for themselves.

They get recognized.

They've got the locals that come in, which is exactly what they wanted.

And so you might be fighting two or three different levels of educating that you need, that you might be doing.

Yeah.

And sometimes it is purely serving.

Right.

And that's the other thing is this is a service job in the end.

Right.

You are, you're there serving a customer.

You're serving your patrons and the community.

And I think one.

That's what that place does very well.

Yes.

Hey, you can get a cheap drip coffee.

Well, that means they're serving a whole.

They're serving different clientele.

The front end of that business, it should still be about compassion and, you know, delight.

Yay.

They're delighting.

Somebody that comes in needs a cheap cup of coffee.

Yeah, they are.

They can delight them with that.

That day.

That's equally as important as us talking about fancy processed coffees that we're getting somewhere is someone's delighted because I got a hot damn cup of cup of coffee in the morning that was not bad.

Right.

Like, and they got to give them that, hey, you know, somebody who might be going through things, hey, you're giving that moment of something good.

Right.

You're doing that.

They might be getting that delightful connection they need that day.

Maybe they don't have friends at work.

Maybe they're socially isolated and they're making that one touch connection.

Maybe in general, this is going to be their third place.

Like that we want.

And they know that they can go there and have that experience.

Yeah, but that third place, right, we've talked about.

The third place doesn't exist without people.

And it's the people who are at the front end that make a place feel like that.

It's not because somebody says it's a third place.

It's the people that make it that way.

And it's always the people at the front end that are doing that.

Yeah.

They're doing the work to make a place feel like that.

Because you can do.

You can say all the things.

You can have all the couches, you can have the soft lights.

You can do this, you can have the workspaces.

If the people suck, you're not going to want to go there and make it your third place.

Nope.

Those people are the place that make the place worth being at.

That is.

Yeah, that's absolutely true.

So since we touched on New City, you know who used to work at New City is Josiah, the manager at amfm.

So I think we got to get on.

And he will, he'll have some insight into, like that side of things.

And then now working with someone like me who's, you know, obviously obsessed with the other side of things, and he's the perfect counterweight for that.

So there's.

We've kind of touched on it.

But there is kind of a third aspect of intellectual delight that I wanted to hit on where this was huge when we were at Joe Bean and Aaron.

I don't know, like, because you kind of.

You were on the bar a little bit after I had missioned out.

Like, we were expected to kind of have a good idea of, like, the food and coffee scene in Rochester.

Sure.

And then when people come in, either from out of town or just, like, looking to have a night out or whatever, like, they would, you know, they would ask us.

We were expected to know things about like, this is where you should eat.

You know, go to the Strong Museum.

The Red Wings are playing.

You know, like, there were so many.

So many different contours to that.

And so, like, baristas are kind of.

They get asked these things, like, hey, do you know any good restaurants in the area?

You know, I'm in town for the night or I'm in town for a couple of nights.

You roll in in the morning, you're to going at 8 o', clock, you're going to coffee, you're not thinking about dinner that night.

Really.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think it's an interesting piece that a lot of baristas know their neighborhoods incredibly well.

So, like, I think about kind of the.

I don't want to.

I don't want to use the word conflict, but the conversation maybe that's going on around Ugly Duck, around that area and how they're going to develop the plot of the plot.

The green right across the street from Ugly Duck.

Yeah.

And a lot of development in that area.

There's been a lot of just boxy apartments, which, like, you know, for better or worse, like, I don't need to get into the politics of that.

And now they have this one.

Nice.

Could be a green space.

And they're.

They're talking about building more.

More affordable apartments.

It's not apartments.

I don't think it's like 11.

It's a form of affordable housing.

Affordable?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, one of those projects.

Yeah, yeah, it's a.

Done.

I just saw it on Dunwoody is involved with that.

Yeah, it's the.

I assume it's those homes, I think, is what they're.

Yeah.

So those are the.

They're manufactured.

It's the new.

New manufactured housing that is very en vogue with, you know, providing spaces that are available for People that can.

You can buy and you can be part of a neighborhood.

So that.

That much I like.

But, yeah, it's.

It's hard without those spaces.

But to go back to your.

To go back to your comment about, you know, expecting the baristas to know your community, that is.

I mean, that's huge.

Like, we've talked about coffee and travel a lot.

And to me, that is one of my.

One of the tools that I use.

I will have a giant list.

But the people who I trust to ask that question beyond almost anywhere else are baristas.

One.

Because I typically.

Hey.

And this is.

This is an expectation that might be unfair.

I'm expecting baristas to be cool people, right?

You have a stereotype of a roaster.

Yeah, I'm expect.

I'm expecting the braces to be cool people, right?

That they might.

They might like arts, they might like food.

They might like the stuff that they're involved with that they like the place they're in.

If Wade is at the bar, you're getting a recommendation to go see the Red Wings and eat a hot dog.

Hey, you know what?

Also a great recommendation, but that's what.

Prospects are in town.

And you know who to watch out for, which at bats are going to be good.

So, you know, you don't.

The whole time just to the ones I tell you.

Yeah.

So, like, that is.

It is one of my things.

And that's.

I do.

It's not obviously, if they're busy, I don't do that.

It's bad etiquette.

But I do like, I reference the baristas.

Right.

I will ask that question.

Like, if I'm going to one other coffee shop, what's the place I should go?

And if I'm going to a restaurant or food spot, where should I go?

And sometimes they'll give me a whole thing and sometimes they won't.

And I just, I. I've gotten to so many amazing places because, you know, they're connected to the community and they care about the place they're in.

So that especially shop.

That's good, right?

A really good shop.

I expect them to have that knowledge.

Not like, obviously to, you know, an insane level, but give me one thing that you care about.

But I think that's.

That's also getting to know the person you're across, even for a moment.

Yeah.

And I would say being a good customer, treat the people that are serving you like people because they will also then treat you like a person and not just like somebody who's attacking Them.

Right.

Asking for everything.

So be a good.

Be a good customer, too.

Well, and you've got another point down here on your little cheat sheet about company values and through all the things that.

Real quick.

Can I just tie a bow on one point I was making before?

Sure.

That with the hinge homes and everything's going on across the street from Ugly Duck, one of the main advocates for turning that into a green space.

And when I say advocates, I mean, like, she showed up at the speak to council.

She has been vocal on her socials is Mary, who was on the show and I know technically a manager, but is also like a barista, also a public interface for Ugly Duck.

And so, like, talk about knowing and investing in your neighborhood, your city.

Like, actually being out here going to a city council meeting, going to a speak to council, which I happen to be at, and was just a really interesting time, especially the people that I actually, I got to sit with and hang with at that.

But she got up, she spoke and was just like a very clear advocate for.

For the interests of that neighborhood.

And I thought, you know, that's.

That's a mate.

Like, on top of everything else she does for the neighborhood at Ugly Duck, you know, to add that, that's incredible.

Yeah.

Being a great communicator is that's.

If you're a great communicator at the front of the shop, you might be a great communicator for other things you care about, too.

Well, and I can guess, too, that she's not coming at it from the standpoint of we want this green space because it benefits our shop.

You know, there's a lot of research out there talking about the benefits of green spaces and the lack of green spaces in urban areas and how, you know, it's important for mental health, it's important for community building, it's important for all of these other aspects, you know, and so it's, you know, I think you would find, you know, we can stereotype baristas in this, that they are caring about these other things as well.

And, you know, that's the important part of their values also.

And they're a reference for the stores that they're at.

Right, right.

Joe Bean wanted us to display a certain level of hospitality, a certain level of love for coffee, a certain level of love for Rochester, you know, And I would guess that Ugly Duck and Fuego and all of the other baristas working at these shops are similar, for sure.

Definitely.

And that.

That, like, that kind of gets into the last category of Delight.

Like, I called it aesthetic delight.

I didn't know what.

How to.

How to term this exactly.

But you have to inhabit a story, right?

You're inhabiting a story about your shop and the company values that built that shop.

You're inhabiting a story about the coffees you're serving.

You're inhabiting a story about the coffee scene you're a part of.

Right?

Because, you know, I assume in most cities, and it's certainly true in Rochester, a lot of these baristas know each other.

A lot of them visit each other at their jobs and talk about being baristas.

And some of the ugly duck industry nights have.

Have provided, like, you know, like a more focused forum for that kind of thing.

And so you.

You are inhabiting this whole story when you're interacting with a customer, when you're preparing a coffee, when, you know, like, there are so many different things weighing on that barista.

Like, how do you know, how do I manage the customer who comes in and says, I hate this shop?

They suck.

I've got, like, five friends who work there, man.

Like, I don't.

I got no beef.

Like, why are you telling me, like, Right.

I'm sure there's plenty of that.

Or, like, you know, you know what your shop should do?

It should add food.

Like, well, okay, yeah, we're not, you know, we're not.

That shop, you know, like.

Well, that's expectations.

So many things that just get thrown at them just from nowhere.

Right.

And I was gonna say that's the perfect example of how they have to display.

They have to convince the customer or move the customer to what the values of that shop are.

Why don't we have food?

Right, right.

And that's that emotional, spent aesthetics.

Oh, my gosh.

Well, I mean, they're the front end, right?

They're the.

For all intents and purposes, you know, a lot most places, you don't.

You don't know who the owner is, you know who the barista is, you know who the person who's serving you is.

And they are the manifestation of the shop to you, right?

They are.

They are the representative that is showing all of that.

But, yeah, that.

That's.

It's.

It's a loaded thing.

Right?

And that's.

That is part of the weight of being that.

Like, you're not just.

You're not just me sitting in a cubicle hammering out spreadsheets all day.

You are representing your business as a front person all the time.

Exactly.

It's a significant.

It's significant work and those that are great at it.

It's such a benefit for the customer, for the shop, for everybody.

Absolutely.

And I think we have a lot of great examples here in town, and so hopefully we can get some on and hear from them.

You know, we're in danger of this being a pretty lengthy recording.

So, Chris, do we want a break or do we want to just.

Just power through and cut it where we cut it?

I mean, we're at 50 right now.

I mean, I think we've.

I mean, we've rounded out with a good.

I mean, it feels like we've had at least a pretty complete conversation.

I'm not sure where.

Where else you were hoping to go with it.

Yeah, the only thing I want to say is, like, baristas mostly don't have the support or resources to fulfill this task.

Yeah.

Like, I feel like the job doesn't pay enough.

Guests are adversarial or unrealistic in their expectations.

The industry doesn't provide, like, enough, like, affordable resources.

You guys know World of Coffee is going on right now, which is kind of like the new expo.

It's out in San Diego.

And, like, can you imagine the financial commitment it would take to, like, fly baristas out to San Diego, even though, like, it might be incredibly valuable for your shop?

Fly them out to San Diego, they get to stay there.

How many nights they.

They get tickets to World of Coffee?

All this different stuff.

Like, I mean, it's.

It's just the industry doesn't provide a lot of affordable resources.

There are some.

They are out there.

In general, though, like, you have to pay to go to this city, to do this class, that, this, that the other.

And.

And I think there's a. I think there's maybe an issue where, like, baristas don't support each other a whole lot.

Yeah.

And, like, older baristas are maybe more impatient with younger baristas not having all the skills and all the acumen they have, then they are willing to, like, bring them along and say, like, this is how I got there.

And it's, you know, it's a.

It can be a position with not a whole lot of clout or social register.

And so, like, if you feel like someone's not as good at you as you at it, or just, you know, kind of bad at it, like, I can see where you really start to judge them instead of saying, like, oh, wait, I was there once.

I had to learn this too.

Even if I learned it faster, I had to learn it and then bring someone along.

So I just think, like, when I think about baristas and the tasks they have, like, they just.

There are so many instances where they don't have the support, they don't have the resources.

They deserve higher pay, they deserve benefits because, like, it's a physical job that, like, can.

Can.

I mean, like carpal tunnels, standing on your feet all day, like, you know, standing over an espresso machine, you get those neck aches.

You know, it just can be a whole lot of things.

And, you know, we've talked about some of the difficult things with guests and stuff.

Like, I'm certain we have, and I don't want to go find it necessarily, but I'm certain we have in our community stories of baristas getting swung on by people who, you know, were just angry for any reason.

For any reason?

Yeah.

I mean, like, people who are in maybe a difficult point in their lives or who just have a ton of privilege and entitlement and.

And made that horrible decision that this person in front of them was.

Was going to be the subject of their violence or the object of their violence.

So, yeah, I think just have it tough.

Yeah.

And I think.

I think your point of, you know, when we're.

When we're talking about all these things that we value.

Right.

That.

That we value highly in these people that, you know, make our experience great as people that care about coffee and care about the experience, we do value that.

Right.

That is.

It's.

It's true.

It's.

That is a value.

We value that thing.

Yeah.

I don't think a lot.

Not everybody does.

And I think we.

We do believe that.

Yes.

Obviously, you know, being able to do this as something that you are dedicating your time to for a period or an extended period or longer is valuable in being an expert at being great at hospitality in this specific field should be valued because it makes the experience that much better.

I mean, this is.

When I say I.

When I travel, I talk to baristas, it's because I value their opinions so much that they're who I want to talk to about this.

I value what they do, and it really matters when that people care, and that's.

That's worth something.

And yeah, I think having that ability to expand your knowledge, be better at your craft, and this is a craft, and it's also.

Can be a vocation, and it can be And.

Or should be able to be a career.

And this is.

This is.

It's a great thing to do, to be great at this thing.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the.

One of the things that we don't get to hit on and that makes it tough is for many people, it's not a career.

Right.

It's a job that they walk into and walk out of, and that's all it might be, you know, even at some of the most, you know, respected coffee places and roasteries that we go to.

And one of the things that I've thought about is, you know, I was at, you know, a not to be named or I was looking at going to a not to be named coffee shop, and I get out of work at 3, and they close at 2, and it was like one of these things.

I'm like, ugh, why aren't they open?

Right?

But their business flow probably doesn't support it.

Right.

And so I have to respect that choice.

And at the same time, one of the things I always come back to is respecting these guys who wake up early in the mornings and are working on a Saturday and a Sunday.

Right.

I don't want to do that.

Yeah.

I want them to.

Right.

So, yeah.

And it's.

I think we.

I think what we can say as, you know, people who love this industry, who loves the people that make it happen, we respect the work that they do.

We respect how much they matter to everything.

We all enjoy in coffee.

And I'm really excited to.

Really excited to have these conversations coming up, because I think we have.

There's always more to learn, and I want to learn more about that experience.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, Wade, let's close on the pitch.

If you are a barista and you want to be heard in any way, maybe you just want to send us a letter to read on the air so that you can stay anonymous.

We would prefer.

If you want to be interviewed, we would love to interview you.

Maybe you need to call in, kind of like I'm doing right now.

We can do that.

Or maybe, you know, another barista who has a story that you think needs to be shared.

Look, we believe in you.

We love the baristas of the scene, this city.

We think there are great stories out there.

We want to advocate for y', all, even if that's in some way, like, hey, it's hard out here.

How can we.

How can we contribute to telling the story that makes it better for you?

We want to do that.

We want to be that kind of positive force for baristas here in Rochester.

So let's hit us up on our socials dialed in.

You can reach me at welcome@aporiacoffee.com.

Aaron, you want to give out like an email or a website or something?

Oh, yeah, I'm@AaronPascucci.com AaronMarkPascucciMail.com I think my Instagram is the same.

Aaron Pascucci.

That's Pascucci.

Yes.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, let's tell the stories.

Let's get out there.

We'll put something on our socials, too, that's more of a focus post about this.

We.

Yeah, we love y' all and we want to hear from y'.

All.

Yeah.

So make sure.

Make sure you check out all the other shows on the Lunchadore Podcast Network.

If, if you have questions, you can reach out@hellounchdoor.org to us.

If you have something you want to talk about in the arts that you are involved with, or if you have other things you want to talk about, feel free to reach out.

We are excited for a couple new shows starting.

Our friend Rob Bell starting Plants and Beats on the network.

We'll have our first official Lunchadore episode coming out in the next week or so, which is going to be great.

And we have a library show with Rochester's Book club coming up called Reader's Advisory that I'm super excited about.

This is going to be really cool, something I've been hoping to do for a long time.

So we're recording our first episode in the next next three weeks, I think.

So we're, we're.

We're.

This is a great time to be doing podcasting in Rochester.

And to Wade and Aaron, stay dialed in.

This has been a presentation of the.

Lunchadore Podcast Network work.

If there's espresso to be made, who are you gonna call?

Baristas?