Tom Pepperdine interviews author Gemma Amor on her day-to-day writing process. Gemma discusses creative burnout, the difference between writing for herself versus writing on commission, and the time she had to throw away 20,000 words of a novel and start again.

You can find all of Gemma's books on the following link: https://amzn.to/3bf0bTl

You can find her on Twitter on the following link: https://twitter.com/manylittlewords

You can read her essay on creative burnout here: https://jerichowriters.com/writing-and-burnout/

And you can find more information on our upcoming guests on the following links:

https://twitter.com/Therealwriting1

https://www.instagram.com/realwritingpro

https://www.facebook.com/therealwritingprocesspodcast

Hello, and welcome to the real writing process.

I'm your host, Tom Pepperdine, and on this episode, my guest is Gemma Amor.

Gemma is a Bram Stoker award nominated horror author, as well as an

illustrator, voice actor, and podcaster.

This interview took place in early October, 2021.

Shortly after the release of her book, Six Rooms and the audio

adaptation of her story, Dear Laura, for the NoSleep podcast.

So the episode begins and I'm very pleased to say I'm joined by Gemma Amor.

Hello, Gemma.

Hi Tom.

Hi.

And my first question to you is what are we drinking?

Uh, We are drinking strong black coffee from my Scrabble letter G mug.

G is worth two points on the old scrabble board.

Should be worth way more.

Yeah.

And is this something that you drink whilst writing or is

this your just get up and go?

Yeah, this is my, "stick my coffee pot on the stove, give me

something to actually function and get going," drink that I make at home.

And then if I'm out and about, I'm a flat white coffee lover.

I like a good artisinal hipster coffee with a little fluffy

heart in the milk on the top.

Lovely, and where I'm speaking to you now, this is your home office.

Is this where you do the majority of your writing?

Yeah, so I have a study in my my house upstairs.

And it's just a small space with a custom desk, which my husband's just

built actually, which is lovely.

And all of my books and my framed things on the wall, my artwork

and some certificates and things.

Just stuff that helps inspire me and keep me going when I'm having a slump.

And this, it's got a little couch for me to sit and do research and it looks

out over a nice park, lots of trees.

So it's a nice space.

It's a tiny little writer's hole.

Yeah, it is nice.

It can get a bit confining sometimes but on the whole,

it's a nice place to retreat to.

And has this always been your writing space from when you began writing or is

this something that's developed over time?

So when I first started writing seriously and I guess writing full

time, it wasn't really through choice.

It was through the fact that I'd been made redundant from two jobs in a row

because I wasn't very well and I wasn't performing very well in those jobs.

Although that's a very reductionist view of what actually happened.

But the point was is that it coincided with my son who he started school.

And I realized that from nine o'clock, until two or three o'clock in the

afternoon, every day, I had a big chunk of time that I needed to use for myself,

which was as a kind of newish parent.

The idea of having time to myself after four years was a bit frightening.

And I was also, I wasn't particularly well, I had a lot of mental health issues

and considerations, so I needed a way to use my time that was good for me.

And that actually helped me explore some of my feelings, but

also I've always wanted to take the writing thing seriously.

I've been a writer since I was a child and I never had the time or

the energy because when you work, you don't have a lot of energy

leftover at the end of a working day.

Particularly if you've got kids as well.

So I, um, I remember wandering up and down the Gloucester road, which is a, for

non Bristolians, it's a long lovely road.

Full of independent cafes and charity shops and electronic stores and stuff.

And I walked in and bought myself a secondhand laptop for,

I think about a hundred quid.

And then I developed this really healthy routine, which I do miss ever so slightly,

where I would drop my kid off at school and go straight to a coffee shop and

sit down and I'd write from maybe nine until one or two, straight through, and

then I'd have a break do a little bit more and then back on the school run.

So I didn't work as much from home to begin with.

And it wasn't really, I didn't really have the set up here for things I

needed, like my podcasting equipment.

I've got a Wacom tablet cause I do book cover designs and things now.

Like I've got all the things set up now, but it takes time to

get all that equipment together.

Like you don't need all those things to be a successful

creative, but the tools do help.

If you're, like being a photographer, you need the right equipment.

If you're going to make money out of it for a living.

I have found through necessity and through habit and through the pandemic

that this has become my main place of work because it didn't have a

choice and everything else was shut.

But now things are open again.

I'm definitely roaming a bit more with my laptop again, and that's quite

freeing and I'm finding that I'm writing better stuff with just my laptop than

at my desk with all the fancy tools and equipment, which is interesting.

Yeah, I think a bit of freedom can always help, and

just a uh, change of space.

Definitely.

I think a lot of writers feel quite anchored to their space as well.

And actually.

Oh I wrote an article for a website last week about creative burnout.

And as I was writing this article, giving other people advice and asking

myself lots of questions, a lot of light bulbs went off in my own head about the

fact that I am horrendously burned out.

And one of the tips in there that I very sagely wrote for other people

that I didn't follow myself was that a change of scene is as good as a rest.

And it really, really is.

And I, if I'm editing a book, I'm in the final stages of a book.

Apologies to the environment, but I will still print it all out.

And I'll physically take myself out of my study and going to sit

somewhere else to read it and review it with pen, red pen and stuff.

Cause I find that helps I can focus better.

I love going to coffee shops to work because I think there's

something about the background noise that I find quite soothing.

Although not always particularly if you've got someone on a really loud business call

right next to you or screaming baby or some incredibly loud people, but on the

whole there's something about being in that buzzing environment that relaxes me.

And I think it makes me feel a bit less alone because writing has to

be a very insular job, very insular.

And you on your own, in your own head space, in your house

alone, thankfully alone.

Because last year I shared my house with two very loud

boys and I wasn't ever alone.

And that was a completely different set of problems.

But it can make you a bit nuts, I think.

So, forcing yourself out of your house, if you can, and working somewhere

else is definitely recommended.

Good.

And with your stories, are you someone who starts with a

character or a world setting?

How do your ideas tend to expand and germinate?

My process isn't particularly structured.

I am not one of those people or one of those writers who will sit

down and meticulously plan a story, a character a novel, anything.

I probably should because it might make the writing process easier.

But I have this thing where if I know where a story's going, I immediately

get bored with it and don't want to do this anymore, which is a problem with

my brain and how my brain operates.

I have very short attention span in general, so I combat that by working

on multiple projects at a time.

And so with stories and with short stories or any creative project, really, whether

it's a script, a painting, whatever.

I tend to, I tend to let my brain fix on something that's made a

very strong impression on me.

Okay.

So it could be anything, I could be watching a movie and a particular

scene could strike me and really stick.

I could be listening to piece of music and feel suddenly, "Wow,

okay, that makes me feel a certain way and I need to explore that."

I could be out for a walk and I could spot something.

I might have a memory of somewhere I've traveled to.

I've done kind of a fair bit of traveling and globe trotting.

And those memories are quite anchored in, in my brain.

So sometimes I find myself reminiscing and I want to write about that.

Sometimes characters will pop into my head or not character

so much, but conversations will suddenly pop into my head.

So a snippet of conversation, like a sentence or a phrase will

stick its head up over the parapet and go, "Hi, I need attention."

And then I might take that.

And then I will just organically, let it run and see how the

conversation plays out.

And then I find that if I do that, if I want to write about certain setting

or a certain conversation between two people or a certain feeling or emotion,

or just something I want to explore.

And if I start letting my fingers do the work sooner or later out of

that, a scene will evolve and then a chapter or section or a paragraph.

And then I look at what I've written.

And then I start thinking about the mechanics, like the hows,

the whys, the wherefores, the what are the character dynamics?

Are they facing any particular challenges?

Where are they?

What are they doing?

What are they going to do?

Where have they been?

All of those sorts of things come as a secondary thing for me.

Like often, I guess I'm what you call an intuitive writer, or I just listen to my

brain and what my brain needs to explore.

And I just bash out whatever comes to my mind.

And then I find that I have the kernel of a good story or a good novel.

So what I'm currently working on at the moment is something that I'm not

being commissioned to work on at all.

All my commissions have taken a bit of a backseat.

But it's an idea that came to mind that I just couldn't shake.

And suddenly I'm 11,000 words in and it looks like it might

be a novella or a novel.

So who knows where it'll go, but it feels right.

And that organic writing, I think is really important.

Particularly, if as a writer, you suddenly take your hobby and turn

it into a career, and then you find yourself writing for other people a lot.

You get commissions, you get contracts, you have obligations to fulfill and

you stop being able to do that organic writing as much as you are able to.

And I think some of the fire goes out of you, when you are so deadline-driven.

So at the moment because I am very much experiencing burnout, I'm

listening to myself and allowing my brain to play again a little bit

and that's the kind of writing that I enjoy, more than anything else.

I have quite a few questions off the back of that.

The first one that sprung to mind is, how long when organic writing, does it

take you to formulate a first draft?

Do you find yourself stopping going back or is it just your

your writing seems to evolve.

You get a first draft and then you go back and you try and tidy it up?

No, I am a terrible self editor who constantly revises as

I'm writing, which often means that with a novel or a long short story.

Short stories are not quite so much of an issue here, but anything longer form.

It usually means that the first quarter of it is fucking amazing.

And then the rest of it, I've run out of energy a little bit and you can tell, and

I don't put as much energy into revising those because I'm usually then pushing

deadline, which is something that a more structured writer would probably allow

themselves a bigger chunk of time for.

And so interestingly, because I'm self published up until now and worked

with small indie presses, a book that I have coming out next year is my

first traditionally published novel.

And I'm working with an editor and at some point over the next month or

two, she's going to send me an edit letter with a big chunk of suggestions

for how to make that book better.

And I very much anticipate that she's going to look at the first

quarter of the book and go wey!

And then look at the rest of the book and go, here's where

the majority of the work is.

So my brain is quite a messy place, it's quite a tangled place, and it makes

drafting things difficult sometimes.

Because I run with the momentum of the idea and I do the organic thing

up into a point where I hit a block.

And with novel writing, that's normally around the 40,000 word mark,

where I start to run out of juice.

And that's because I haven't really thought about the

plot as much as I needed to.

What I find myself doing at that point is assessing what I've written so far.

Going, ah, okay, how do I drive this forward to the conclusion?

Because I normally have a fairly good idea of a final scene.

It's like when you're walking up a hill and you're halfway up and you're like, oh

my God, I've got so much further to go.

And you don't have that adrenaline to push you because you're near

the end and you're not near the beginning, so you run out of energy.

And then find myself stepping back and I, I print off the book as it stands,

which is normally an absolute mess.

Because first drafts are messy, doesn't matter if you're the best writer

in the world, they're still messy.

And I then get a big white board and I start plotting down all the

questions that I probably should have thought at the beginning.

How do these characters relate to each other?

What are their individual struggles?

What are we trying to say with this novel?

Where do we want it to go and how, and what are the stressors and

challenges and environmental factors and all these different things.

I then fudge it by reading and rereading what I've written and making

lots of notes on the physical copy.

And what I find that helps me with is if I have an idea in the middle section

of a novel, I then understand that I need to go back and write it in the

earlier stages for some foreshadowing or to work that narrative thread through.

You can't just introduce a brand new idea, halfway through

a book and expect it to stick.

In answer to your question, I have a very untidy process.

Because I am a very impulsive organic person.

So maybe that's why I sometimes find short stories easier to write, but there

is a running joke between a lot of the people that I work with who publish my

short stories, like the no sleep podcast.

The editor that has a running joke that my short stories are a minimum

of 80,000 words long because I just cannot write a short story anymore.

Because everything in my head wants to be a novel, I think,

and wants to be a big idea.

I have big ideas.

One of the things that I know I need to work on next year, and I'm really

looking forward to, is working with a traditional editor who can rein me

in a little bit and guide me through the process of structure and planning.

Because I, I guess I'm self-taught, as much as you can be as a writer.

I studied English literature at university, but I've not done any

creative writing courses or had access to other authors on a regular basis

to talk me through these things.

So I'm feeling my way very much through this entire thing.

It's done me well so far, but I think there's another level of my writing

that I can get to, if I'm able to get my brain to cooperate, which is

difficult sometimes because of my brain.

I think some of your story is absolutely fantastic and my favorite

being White Pines, and that does not come across as an organic writing project.

Yeah, but it was an absolute bitch to write that novel.

I ditched the first 20,000 words I wrote of that book and completely rewrote it.

That kind of answers the question I was about to ask, which is to say, do

you find in the organic writing process that you're having to kill your darlings?

And I think killing 20,000 words!

So yeah, so that book was an interesting one.

So White Pines is my genre fluid, supernatural Celtish, cult, horror,

alternate reality novel thing.

That doesn't really fit into any genre particularly nicely,

but I'm okay with that.

And it started with a scene that popped into my head and

the scene was the prologue.

And the prologue is a woman on a barren island who experiences

things materializing and disappearing in front of her.

Just little flickers here and there.

And I was so taken with that imagery I decided I wanted to

write something bigger about it.

And I had not written anything longer than Dear Laura, which was only 28,000 words,

which was my novella that I'd published.

So I wanted to challenge myself and write a novel.

And the only way I could think to do that was to make myself accountable.

So I actually started a Kickstarter and to get the book funded so that I

could afford a decent cover design and some editors and all the rest of it.

As I wildly and grossly underestimated how much money I needed to raise

to cover the cost of postage, but we won't talk about that.

So I suddenly found I had a year in which to write a novel and so I started writing.

And the original idea was that the protagonist would be a journalist

who was exploring the disappearance of an entire town and entire

community, who one day just vanished.

And it was set in some like generic forest in America.

And it had a very generic opening scene where it's a team of bored

local regional journalists and let's go and investigate this mystery.

And I got 20,000 words in and I found that not only did it not feel very authentic

because I had no idea what the place was like that I was actually writing about.

Didn't understand enough about American culture.

It felt very tired to me, but also it just didn't feel right.

Like in my gut, I ran out of steam because I just didn't like it.

I didn't like where it was going.

I didn't, things started to raise themselves as questions to me.

Like it was set in the nineties, which the novel I ended up writing still

is, but it was a part of America that wasn't remote enough for people to

not suddenly go, what the fuck, 33 or 3000 people have just gone missing.

We need to make some fuss about this.

And I couldn't think of a way in which to write the novel where there

wouldn't be the military and the police involved and all of these things.

As would happen if 3000 people suddenly disappeared in the middle of America.

So I then had a massive existential crisis, because I'd wasted

two months writing something that was totally unusable.

And I began to realize that the problem was not with the concept.

I still really wanted the concept of a town that disappeared, of

community people that disappeared.

But the setting and the setting needed to be remote enough that perhaps people

wouldn't notice if a large number of people disappeared, and why they wouldn't

notice is perhaps because those people wanted to disappear in the first place.

They wanted to live somewhere very remote and cut off from the world.

So I started to investigate islands and my husband actually pointed me in the

direction of a smaller island off the coast of the Scottish Highlands called

Anthrax Island, or um, it's a small island in a place called Gruinyard Bay.

And the island is actually called Gruinyard Island and it was sold to

the military in the second world war so that they could experiment with anthrax.

Which meant they bought a bunch of sheep and tied them to poles in the

middle of the island and dumped a shed load of anthrax on it and saw

how long it took them to die horribly.

But it fascinated me because the topography of the land around it,

the isolated feel of the island, the military history, all of these

things suddenly clicked in my head.

So I then threw away 20,000 words and I started from scratch.

And I started with a lot of research, a lot of Google earthing.

And then I took a research trip up there and I drove around the

Highlands for a couple of days on my own in a little rented car.

And I stayed in a hotel near the bay.

And I wandered along the beach and I looked at the island and I

thought about going to the island, but then I thought, no, it's

probably still covered in anthrax.

Um.

And I began to develop a sense that the book was actually not really a kind

of town in America disappears book.

It wanted to be a folklore book and it wanted to soak up the Scottish folklore

and the culture and the geography.

And it wanted to talk about bigger things as well, like alternate realities and myth

and all sorts of things, cult behavior.

Um, So then all of a sudden it started to write itself.

And I still hit the middle stodgy bit, but I wrote my way out of that

by just doing obsessive amounts of research into as many things as I could.

And then I found the ideas kept coming.

And eventually a year later, a bit later than I meant to deliver

it, but I finally finished it.

And I was actually happy with the end result, but it was a very

painful process writing that book, I learned a lot of lessons, it

was my first full length novel.

I did learn how to write through writer's block and to write

through the stodgy middle.

I hated it.

I hated that book by the time I'd finished it, but then slowly and surely

people have been feeding back that it's quite an unusual book, I think.

In that it doesn't really stick to one particular genre, and I think it works.

I think it works.

There's always going to be things that I want to fix, but yeah.

I've read a lot of your work and I think the narrative is really strong.

Even though the story behind it, it might sound very messy and

like you say, it was quite an arduous journey to get to the end.

I love that book.

It's the one I always recommend because I think it's so

different from a lot of things.

I feel like it's the book that wanted to be written as opposed

to the book I was trying to write.

And I think the power of a research trip as well, and immersing yourself in the

environment and being able to write about the small tiny details surrounding you.

And the taste of the salt in the air or the ivy on the headstone of the cemetery.

Those little details.

It's so much more authentic to me, that book, then it would have been had I

sat it in the Appalachian mountains or whatever, and it just wouldn't have worked

because I don't know enough about it.

In the future I'll probably take a research trip out to somewhere.

Well, actually that was going to be my next question.

It sounds like your attitude to research has fundamentally changed through

the process of writing that book.

Do you have a desire to research more for future projects?

Yes, I'm going to set it in The Bahamas or Bora Bora.

Um, yeah, I think if I look at the stories to me that have the most bite to

them, they're all stories that are set in places where I've been or visited.

So I've just finished writing a story about the ancient Ram Inn,

in Wotton-Under-Edge because that's somewhere that I've been to.

Even Dear Laura, which has got a very nondescript forest in it.

It's interesting, cause I've just adapted that for the No Sleep podcast

and I had to Americanize that.

Although there were still a lot of things I forgot to, like trousers and hopefully

they don't hate me too much for it.

I set that originally in the New Forest in Hampshire because it's,

it's a huge expense of woodland, but there's one particular scene

where Laura is sitting on a road she's been sent on a fool's mission.

And she's sitting on a road in the middle of this forest and I've been to that road.

And I remember standing there and just thinking how random is this bit

of tarmac in the middle of the woods?

With cattle grids and all the rest of it.

So I think for me, research comes in two forms.

Not everybody has the ability or mobility or funding to be able to just

fly off to the Highlands of Scotland and do their you know, research trip.

But the internet is a wonderful thing and there are many videos and so much audio

and a lot of things, you can still soak up the environment quite well, I think.

Cause White Pines started out that way for me with a lot of Google earthing.

That's how I knew I wanted to set it there.

Cause I basically walked along the road virtually that went

around the bay for hours.

I just zoomed in and out and I got a real feel for it that way.

So research comes in two forms for me, physically going somewhere, if I can, or

using somewhere that I've traveled to.

I'm quite a physical person, I love to travel and explore, but then also doing

the reading around it and the online stuff and just immersing myself in it.

And I generally find that if I've got writer's block and I'm really

stuck then if I plop myself into an hour or two of solid research around

some tiny little thing in the novel.

It kick-starts me again and there's a detail that I might pick out.

So let's say I'm really stuck, and I can't think of a way to move forward

with the story, but I just want to learn more about Scottish myths or whatever.

So then I end up looking at Pictish stones and symbols, and then I realize I really

liked the idea of symbols and geometry.

And then I start thinking about sacred geometry.

And then I start thinking maybe I can use that as a plot device to drive

this forward because sacred geometry could be something by which the local

people communicate with a series of triangles and circles and squares.

And then maybe I look at the, do you know what I mean?

It just from one small thing that you read, big things

develop and flower, I think.

And another thing I wanted to go into, cause you mentioned very early on

with the organic writing, we discussed that, but also you're commissioned for

a lot of stories and I'm just wondering with your organic beginnings of stories

but also the amount of research that you're willing to do for your stories,

how you approach a story on commission, and how do you structure those stories?

So interestingly, I think the biggest example of a commission

that I've just delivered on a big scale was the newest novel I

have out, it's called Six Rooms.

And it's a haunted house novel.

And that was as a result of Cemetery Gates Media, who came to me with

an idea that they already had.

And I think originally they wanted it to be an anthology and they wanted a series

of writers to write around a theme, which is a very common thing with anthologies.

And the theme was, here is a house, everybody pick a room and write a

kind of spooky story based in that room, and around a certain character.

And it doesn't matter when it's set or who the character is, and we'll compile it.

And then actually think they rethought that and decided that

might be a good basis for a novel.

And then they brought me on and said, can you do this in novel form?

And I'm not one to say no to anything.

So I was like, yeah, of course I can.

Yeah.

But it was actually quite intimidating because there was a lot of uh, lore

that they already put in place.

So the novel is set in Sunshire, which is a fictional region in America

where previous anthologies from Cemetary Gates Media have been set.

So there was already some backstory that I had to incorporate.

There was a cast of characters, some of whom I wrote about some of whom I

didn't, and then there was the house itself that I had to do all the research

on, and I had to make sure it was a house that could realistically have been

built in that period and in that area.

So again, that was an interesting book in which I started to write around each room.

I knew I wanted to structure the novel around six individual sections and each

section was set in a room of the house.

And the only way I could think of to make that an interesting experience

for the reader was to think about a tour through a haunted house or an

old estate like a normal tour that you'd have around a stately home here.

And I liked the idea of you moved as the tour group moved through the house.

But what I found as I was writing that is that it didn't really come to life.

There wasn't anything particularly special about it.

It was a series of characters moving around inside a house.

There was nothing special about it.

And I realized that actually some of the history needed to be present.

Some of the reasons why the house was haunted needed to be explored.

And the only way you can really do that in the way in which I'd written,

it was through a series of flashbacks.

Again, that's a very kind of tired, old concept.

So I tied the flashbacks to a series of objects that are around the house.

So if one of the people in the tour group happened to touch one of

these objects, they were immediately taken back to a period of the

past, to a particular character.

And as I found these flashbacks unfolding and this particular character

was being more and more explored, he started to take center stage.

And I realized that the story was really about him.

And he was the previous owner of the house and he was an absolute

shitbag and he really wanted to just take front and center.

And so the book then suddenly started to kick into gear when I gave in and let him

do what he wanted to do, which was rule.

And it was a difficult way of shoehorning my organic process into a commission where

a lot of the things were predetermined.

If that makes sense.

But it worked quite well in the end and Cemetery Gate were really happy with it.

And the feedback so far, it's not been out very long, but the feedback so far has

been good so I was happy that it worked.

I enjoyed writing a more traditional genre book.

In terms of other commissions I've had, most of them tend to be audio.

So again, there are certain considerations and requirements you have to have

in mind as you're writing for audio.

So for one of the scripts I'm writing, it's a two act thing.

So what I'm doing is I'm taking a short story I'd already written

and I'm readapting it for audio.

And that means basically rewriting it because it's it's not first

person perspective, for a start.

So it needs to be redone in that sense.

Exposition is a big thing with audio.

Most audio drama scripts would be very dull if it was one person's internal

monologue talking about the sunrise.

So there are ways that you have to write in the sunrise in a convincing way, which

gives the audience an idea that the sun is rising without boring them to tears.

That's quite challenging.

I find the commission projects I work on much more challenging than the things I

write for myself organically, but they're an important part of the writing process.

And I guess it would be the same if you're a TV writer or a screenwriter,

there are certain beats you have to hit.

Things you have to include, considerations.

It's not the same as I'm going to sit in the cafe at nine o'clock in

the morning and see what happens.

It's very different.

I am grateful for all of my commissioned work.

I do find it more difficult, but it also teaches me a lot and I find that audio

requirements are by far the most specific out of the commission stuff that I get.

Yeah.

And when writing on a day-to-day basis sometimes at the cafe, sometimes

at home in the study, are you very disciplined in the hours you put in or do

you work for a set period of time and have a set writing session or is it a certain

word limit or is it just instinctive?

There are several things, there's several parts to that question.

I want to touch on word count and setting yourself a word count target

a day, because I think that's actually quite a toxic thing to do to yourself.

To set yourself an expectation of 2000 words a day where you don't have any

idea of what frame of mind you're going to wake up in, what external factors

are going on, whether you're going to have an argument with your kid first

thing in the morning, whether the builders are going to be digging up the

road over your house, whether somebody calls you and adds stress to your life.

Like 101 million things can happen to you, that can interfere

with that word count target.

And you get to the end of the day, and you haven't written your 2000 words, you

generally feel a bit shit about yourself.

Particularly if you are a self-employed writer who struggles with imposter

syndrome and your quite critically hard upon yourself, because a lot of us authors

are, we're not very nice to ourselves,.

So I don't have strict word count targets.

I count any words on the paper as a positive at the end of the day.

And even if I haven't done words on the page at the end of the

day, I am trying to get better at not being too hard on myself.

Because some days you just can't write.

And at the moment, which I've touched on before, I am actually creatively,

almost burned out completely.

There are things that I am working on slowly and surely.

I'm finding artwork a lot easier to get into because it doesn't require a huge

amount of brain power, but it's still creating and helping move me forward.

But writing has suddenly become extremely difficult for me because the well has

burned dry a little bit, has run dry.

So setting myself unrealistic targets and word count targets and things every

day, isn't working for me at the moment.

Because I'm just getting my knickers in a twist and tearing

my hair out over the fact that I'm not doing what I should be doing.

And it's it's really heartbreaking as well, not do the thing that you love

doing, but it is part of the process.

You just have to accept and realize, okay, and you adjust

your boundaries and your output.

And if you've got very understanding publishers or whatever, people

that are waiting on you, you just go to them and say, look, I'm

struggling and I need more time.

So that's the first part of that question.

In terms of a daily routine and how disciplined I am, before the

pandemic, I was insanely disciplined.

I was nine o'clock to one o'clock every single day without fail writing.

Then the pandemic hit and, as I touched upon before, suddenly my work environment

at home became entangled with my husband being here and working from home and my

child being here and schooling from home.

And that whole thing being so stressful and chaotic that it absolutely

undermined my productivity on a daily basis for about a year, I would say.

It just ruined my routine, everything.

Because our lives became structured around Zoom calls and schooling

and do you know what I mean?

It was just, there was no certainty on a day-to-day basis.

So not only were we all stuck at home, but we were all just on top of each other

the whole time and this a small house.

So if somebody has a tantrum or an argument or heated phone call,

everybody hears it, or the TV is on.

It just wasn't conducive to working at all, which is why I was so horrendously

late with all my projects last year.

Productivity went down the toilet and I still am clawing my

way out of that, quite slowly.

This year has been tough for me too, personally, the first half of

the year was particularly grueling.

And then I went on a very long summer holiday.

And ever since then, I've been really struggling to get that discipline back,

but it is slowly returning as the world goes back to normality a little bit more.

I think my brain hasn't quite accepted.

That things are getting better.

Not yet, like I'm still into denial mode and I'm still processing everything

that's happened over the last 18 months, which was a lot for me.

And I think my brain's in a bit of shock, so it's interfering with my ability to

get back into my old life and my old routine, but slowly and surely, I am.

I have days where I can't work at all.

Again, I have to just accept that that's just how that day's going to be.

And I will find other ways to use my brain, like I'll paint or I'll try and

be creative in any way that I can be.

But I'm not back to where I want to be in terms of my routine

and productivity and discipline.

Before the pandemic I was Mrs.

Discipline, which is why I managed to write as many books as I did

in such a short period of time.

And I'll get there.

I think it's just about being realistic and being kind to myself in that respect.

Like, we've all been through a lot.

And it will take time to recover from all of that.

Actually one of the questions I generally ask people is do

they feel imposter syndrome?

And clearly as we're discussing, that is something that you're

very in tune with yourself.

As you said earlier, about 40,000 words is where you dip in novel writing.

And you can be quite self critical.

But you recognize that.

And you mentioned earlier that you wrote a article where you've

been open about your burnout.

There were warning signs, there were alarm bells, when you're putting

down the advice, you're recognizing things in yourself and clearly one of

those is the daily discipline going.

But I was just wondering were there other alarm bells where you realized,

wait a second, I need to step away.

Because imposter syndrome is so common.

And if we discuss a few of those, it might really help listeners who are

going through something like that.

Yeah.

I think it's important to make the distinction.

I think imposter syndrome can be a symptom of burnout.

It's not quite the same as burnout.

So the definition of burnout for me, it's not writer's block.

It's not, when you sit down and suddenly you can't write.

Writers burnout is so extreme that it's a point where you start to question your

entire existence as a creative person.

Where even the very thought of writing exhausts you to the

point where you just avoid it.

Where everything in your life is affected, like your mood,

your sleep, your anxiety levels.

You're probably more depressed than normal.

You might be drinking a bit more than normal.

It's a fine line between creative burnout and emotional burnout.

And I think just, let's just call it burnout for the sake of ease.

There are lots of warning signs and some of those that I've just spoken about.

Your productivity and your output slowing down, and the

quality of your work decreasing.

The same things that you would associate with depression, perhaps.

Burnout is that level of extreme.

So, imposter syndrome is a slightly different kettle of fish.

Where you are questioning, not your identity as a writer, but

you're questioning your place at the table, which is different.

So you spend a lot of time comparing yourself to others and you spend a lot

of time looking at their success stories and wondering why yours aren't the same.

For me personally, again, being a self-published author,

came with a lot of issues.

In that people didn't really take me very seriously for awhile.

I wasn't invited to the podcasts or the panels, or do you know what I mean?

Until the magical Stoker award nomination, when suddenly people

then began to open doors for me.

Doors that weren't available before as a self-published writer, because there

is a perception that's an inferior quality item, I guess, a self-published

book, which is ridiculous and very old fashioned, but this industry

in general takes a long time to catch up with the rest of the world.

So imposter syndrome is more about you don't stop writing, you keep going,

but you're questioning whether or not you should be doing it based on how

good everybody else is around you.

And there are lots of ways that you can combat that.

That I found particularly useful.

There are lots of basic things.

So if there's a particular author or creative that you follow online,

for example, on Twitter and their success is starting to trigger you

and trigger nasty feelings of jealousy or lack of self-belief because their

success is not equal to your success.

Then you're perfectly within your rights to mute that person for awhile,

until it stops becoming something that triggers you on a daily basis.

Like, you can curate your online experience in a way that invites a better

mental state, if you're really struggling.

So rather than constantly comparing yourself to other people get off

your socials or mute everybody that challenges you in that sense, so

that you feel more comfortable.

Taking a break from writing for a while, until you can readjust

your perspectives a little bit.

Building up a network of people around you who support you and

hold you up is absolutely vital.

And I'm very lucky.

I have, I would say 5 to 10 people in an inner circle that I trust,

of other creatives, writers, composers, artists, whatever.

And every time I'm having an impostor syndrome wobble, I just reach out and

go, oh God, I'm really shit at this.

And they just always bitch slap me and go, shut up Gemma and get on with it.

And you learn to cognitively retrain your brain sometimes the more support

around you have, in that sense.

And then I'm at the point now, where if I find I'm having an unkind

thought about another author, which does happen, or I'm finding my own

self-worth, I'm questioning it.

I sit down and I look at the stats.

Okay, I've sold this number of books.

I might not be Stephen King, but this number of people bought my books and read

them, that's got to count for something.

I have a readership.

I have an award nomination.

I didn't win, but I still have an award nomination.

That was recognition.

People are paying me to do my job.

And so gradually you get to a point where you realize that if you let

in imposter syndrome, you're making your own life much more difficult.

And I know it's not very British, but you have to just put that

self-critique away for a little bit.

You can bring it back out again at the end of your novel to make the novel better.

Okay, what can I do better here?

And this isn't very good and that's fine.

But if you want to produce stuff, you have to get out of your own way.

And sometimes you can be your own worst enemy, but as soon as you recognize that

you are being your own worst enemy and you put that in a little tin and just store it

on a shelf for later, the easier it gets.

And I still struggle with it.

Most of last year I questioned my entire identity as a human being.

But then so did everybody, cause we were going through this global thing, right?

This traumatic event.

So it's something that I've seen interestingly online.

Cause I hang out a lot with writers online.

Again, going back to the idea that we're all kind of processing a lot of stuff and

we're all struggling a bit at the moment.

It's like we've got this trauma hangover.

I'm suddenly seeing the levels of people saying, I'm so burned out.

I've got imposter syndrome.

I can't do this anymore.

I can't read.

I can't write.

I feel like it's just endemic.

It makes me sad because I feel like we are all struggling a little bit, but

the only way through that is to just be as nice to yourself as you can.

And to try not to obsess over it too much, because it's a

self-fulfilling cycle, sometimes.

It's like when you see a writer trying to market themselves

online, just one of my pet hates.

And it's again, a very British thing to be self-effacing and

a bit sarcastic about yourself.

And authors don't like promoting themselves because it's sneered

on a bit, but they drop a picture of their book and they go, "Hey.

Yeah.

So I wrote this book is probably a bit shit, but yeah, maybe

you should try it sometime."

And it's like, no, no, no, no.

Like, if you don't say nice things about your own stuff.

There's a fine line between being arrogant and being someone who's

just confident that actually, maybe somebody might want to read this.

Here it is, read it and believe in yourself a little bit.

And so, it's all right to actually believe in yourself, but it can be difficult.

I think you're absolutely right.

That with British writers, uh, we find it very difficult to promote ourselves.

And as a self-published writer and someone who's done a Kickstarter,

have you got more comfortable promoting your work or is it still a

real challenge to promote yourself?

Maybe I'm coming at it from a perspective of having worked in

marketing and sales for 10 years.

Where I know that if you don't shout about something, then people

aren't going to know it exists and they're not gonna want to buy it.

It's like a basic principle to me.

If you're writing a book, unless you're writing it solely for

yourself, in which case that's fine.

But if you're writing a book and you're writing it for other people to read.

It stands to reason that those people might want to hear about it.

Once you get over that as a basic truth, stop worrying about the idea

that people are gonna think you're tooting your own horn all the time.

Or if people do have a problem with you promoting yourself, then they

can fuck off, you know, just surround yourself by the people that don't mind.

I think it's like a basic psychology rewiring where you have

to get comfortable like an actor.

You have to get comfortable putting yourself out there on stage.

If you're a photographer, you have to get comfortable occasionally

having your own picture taken.

I'm deeply uncomfortable having my photograph taken, but it's

something that I have to work on.

If you want to take this seriously, you don't really have a choice and

we're not in a fortunate enough position, I'm certainly not, to have

a marketing team working for me.

To be able to coast off of previous successes so that I don't have

to perhaps do as much self promo.

Even the successful authors out there still have to do their due

diligence on promoting themselves.

I obviously had to work really hard assomebody that probably

still, most people have never even really heard of, to get the kind of

readership that I have got going.

And that, that was hours of work a day, promoting myself on social media.

I would say, as a writer, 50% of my time is spent on self promotion, whether

it's an Instagram post or doing podcasts and interviews or articles or yeah,

most of it's on Twitter, I'll admit.

Like, building up a follower basis.

When I first started out in 2018, I think I had 200 followers.

I've grown to 11,000 on Twitter and that makes difference because with

Twitter in particular, you become part of somebody's daily timeline.

You, sort of, are in their front of mind and in their consciousness.

So the chances are that if they interact with you on a daily

basis, when you do publish a book.

They might be more likely to read it and then recommend it to people and

be part of a conversation about it.

So it's very important that you get over any squeamishness you have

about pushing yourself forward.

There are ways and means of pushing yourself forward without being obnoxious.

It is a very fine line.

For example, turning up unannounced and uninvited in a conversation people are

already having to plug your book, when it's not relevant to the context of

that conversation, is a bit of a no-no.

And I still find people doing that now.

It's a fine line, but it's something you just have to learn and do.

And again, the successful writers out there have got it figured out.

They get the whole balance between promoting themselves, but not being

awful about it to their online followers.

And you mentioned Twitter and podcasts and how you've built your

audience, but also is that where you built your network of creative peers?

What you said earlier about imposter syndrome and having that inner circle

of creatives that help reassure you, was that something that developed in person

conventions or was it all social media?

So I'm in the unique position of, since I started my

writing career, I haven't been to a single writer's convention because

the pandemic fucked it all up.

I haven't been to a single Stoker con or Bristol con or anything.

There just hasn't been any.

Next year, I'm going to finally get to go and meet all these people that

I've met online, which will be amazing and probably absolutely overwhelming.

So I've built up the majority of my, I would say, online community and support

network on Twitter and Instagram as well.

And it has been invaluable to me.

There are a lot of people are quite sniffy about the writers community.

I see a lot of people making fun of writing community hashtags

and people's desire to reach out and meet like minded people.

I never really understood that because for me it has kept me going.

So I met my developmental editor, Dan Hanks for White Pines on Twitter.

And he was the main reason that book got finished and is as good as it is.

I've met people like Laurel Hightower and Cynthia Pelayo on Twitter.

And those are two ladies that I then put together an anthology of short

stories to raise money for charity.

I have met filmmakers and actors and narrators and artists and writers, and

just a world of people I would never have access to in real life, without the

convention circuit being an operation.

People like Gareth Powell who you know very well, I met on Instagram, I think.

It's an astonishing resource.

If you know how to use it in a way that compliments your mental

health rather than detracts from it.

There are always going to be people that come along that interfere with your

mojo, sort of energy vampires, but on the whole, I have made so many friends

online through Twitter and Instagram and Facebook probably as well, that

have added to my life and to my career.

I can't wait to get into the convention circuit and go to physical

events and give these people a hug.

People that I speak to every week, and imagine seeing them in real life.

If I'm having a bad day, I know there are people who will understand.

And the thing I always, it always makes me chuckle is particularly with social media.

If I have a personal work achievement to announce.

Oh my, I sold 5,000 copies of my book, wow, that's a big milestone.

I could pop that onto Facebook and I might get a like from auntie Flo, but

generally it's tumbleweed from your family and friends because they don't really

appreciate the struggles that go into it.

You could do the same thing on Twitter and your community

of friends and the engagement.

You could get a thousand people going, "Well done!"

And that means something.

Like I said, writing is a lonely thing.

It's an isolating career.

So having people around you who understand imposter syndrome, who

understand the struggles, who understand burnout and all these trials and

tribulations is absolutely invaluable.

Again, I see people who complain a bit about, " oh, I

don't want to play the game.

I don't want to be popular online.

I just want to write books."

That's fine.

That's absolutely fine.

If that's what you want your writing career to be about, then embrace that.

Stop moaning about it.

But for me, I thrive off of other creatives, and I'm inspired by

other creatives's journeys and other people's ideas and successes.

And I need that around me.

It's like a comfort blanket around me.

It sometimes can be problematic.

And the community online, the writers community online has been

known to implode, especially in the horror space on frequent basis.

But then we've all been through a lot of stuff lately, like I said.

In any group of people, there are always stressful times.

Yeah.

I strongly recommend, writers who are first starting out, reaching out to

like minded people on Twitter and making those friendships because they can

make the absolute difference in your career between finishing something or

not finishing something or believing in yourself and not believing in yourself.

And with that, have you utilized any people as beta readers?

What's that experience like?

And what in your mind makes a good beta reader?

I'm slightly wary about beta readers now than I was naively back in the

day, because I am aware that your IP is something that you should treat carefully.

And ideas can end up in the pockets of other people, but that being

said, this is why we build up a network of people you trust.

I have probably about three people who have beta read for

me or would beta read for me.

And that experience has generally been very positive.

So for example, Six Rooms, the book I was struggling with, I sent to my good friend,

Laurel Hightower, who's also an author.

She's a very good author.

She wrote an amazing book called Crossroads, and she's got a

lot of good stuff ahead of her.

She writes quite similar stuff to me.

She writes very emotionally, she writes very raw personal content.

We both know what it's like to exsanguinate upon the page

because we have a lot of things that we work through together.

So we're quite like-minded in that respect.

And it's funny, I sent that book to three people.

I sent it to Ross.

He is a Bristol author.

Ross Jeffrey's a really solid writer, also Bram Stoker nominated this recent

year for Tome, which is a cracking novel.

And he read it and he was like, this is amazing, it's brilliant.

I was like, oh, okay.

My other friend who is a composer called Brandon Boone, he read it.

And he was like, nah, what is this?

I don't even know what this is trying to be.

And I think he got two pages in and was like, nah.

And then Laurel read it.

And Laurel's feedback was the most useful constructive.

Okay, here are what I think the issues are.

This isn't really resonating with me.

This voice doesn't really belong here.

There's some issues with this structurally and have you thought about this.

And I was like, hallelujah, thank you.

Cause she had pinpointed what I couldn't figure out what was wrong with the book.

I knew it was falling flat.

I said that before.

I just didn't know why.

And she was like, have you thought about that?

Ah, okay.

Light bulb moment.

Then I went away, like I said, I added in the flashbacks with the character

front and center and suddenly the book had a personality and I knew

what it was going to be as well.

Whereas before it was very meandering and just didn't really mean much.

So beta readers are extremely useful.

If you're in a slump, you've got writer's block, or you are convinced

that everything you've written a shit.

But you need to get good beta readers who are not afraid to give you objective

criticism and feedback without being overly harsh, because nobody needs that.

Cause we're all fragile little people.

Once you find them, when they've got capacity to take on your work,

they are worth their weight in gold.

And Dan Hanks is another one who read White Pines and very much did the same.

He did like a full report on what worked, what didn't, what needed

to be teased out, what didn't.

Like just a proper editor would do.

So to a certain extent, when you go to that traditional model, I think

your editor becomes a beta reader of sorts, but you want to get the

book in a good enough state for a traditional publisher to accept it.

And that often means for me taking my first draft and giving it to

someone for them to point out what the hell is wrong with it.

There's another author called Aiden Merchant, who has been very

supportive of my work over the years.

And he's a self-published writer who has been very useful in terms of

just confidence boosting, I think.

But yeah I think going forward, the amount of times I will use beta readers

will probably diminish as I get more protective of my ideas and my IP.

And as hopefully I work more in the traditional space, I know that I'm going

to be working with editors as well.

My husband also reads everything.

He tends to read it after it's been published and then give me his feedback.

But I think I might start utilizing his brain a bit more

because he's a huge reader.

He's read everything and he has a very, he has an engineer's brain,

which is extremely well-structured and the exact opposite of mine.

And he isn't afraid to point out the flaws in anything.

And that can be very useful as well.

Now two more questions.

It's my belief that writers grow and develop their writing with every

story and project that they write.

Looking back at your last one or two projects.

Is there anything that you've learned recently that you feel

is going to be a lesson that you apply on your next writing project?

Yes.

I think I need to stop fucking around with multiple narratives and timelines

and write something linear because everything, I think I've written that

isn't a short story collection has either had multiple narrative threads.

Girl On Fire was written from the first person perspective of four different

characters, multiple timelines, like Dear Laura, or Six Rooms, or White Pines.

I seem to be very averse to writing a beginning, a middle

and an end, from start to finish.

And I think I'm making my life a lot more difficult for myself because keeping up

with multiple narratives is hard work, keeping the authenticity of character

with multiple points of view is hard work.

Timelines are a pain in the arse to plot and then make sure you

don't have massive plot holes.

I think what I've been doing is exploring some really complex themes and complex

ideas, and I don't intend to stop doing that, but I do think I need to go back

to basics a little bit and maybe just try a linear beginning, a middle and an end.

And see where that takes me.

Perhaps I'm not meant to be writing those kind of books, I don't know.

I've learned a lot of lessons and I'm always learning.

I think the next phase of my career is going to be a huge learning curve for

me moving into the traditional space and seeing how the bigger publishers

work, because I've always been my own editor and I've always been my

own force driving myself forward.

And now slowly and surely, there are other people entering into that space

who are there to guide me, which was one of my main reasons for wanting to

explore the traditional publishing model.

I am a staunch supporter of the self publishing and indie space.

I think it's incredibly rock and roll and I love it.

And it's edgy and it's progressive and it's much more inclusive than

traditional publishing in a lot of ways.

But I'm also aware that I can't grow as a writer unless I have outside

external input from people in the business who know what they're

doing when I sometimes really don't.

Like, I'm fudging my way through this.

I am actually really excited to see how the next novel turns out with proper

input and a proper editor to go through things and make it better with me.

I think that collaborative thing is something that I really enjoy as well.

Yeah.

And I think I would love to have you as a guest again, in the future.

In a few years, maybe once you've had that experience and had that

growth and we'll see, what's changed from this interview to that one.

One final question though, Gemma.

Through all your self-published books, is there one piece of advice

that you find yourself returning to consciously when you're writing?

Is there one thing that's helped you through your writing career to this point?

Are we talking in terms of writing the book or once it's

published and the success of the book?

Either, whichever you feel is most relevant to you.

Okay.

So two pieces of advice.

I think one is a practical thing and one is a more kind of conceptual type thing.

But if we're talking about the book in terms of once it's published and

out there and how visible you want it to be and how well you want it to

sell then cover design is everything.

Invest any money you can afford to invest.

And I'm not talking thousands of dollars because that's quite

exploitative when you're in a kind of self-publishing or indie space.

Invest as much money as you can afford in a decent cover design.

And by that I mean, think about how that will look on a thumbnail.

Can you read the title text?

Can you read your name?

Is it a gripping image?

Is there a high contrast look to it and feel to it?

Is it colourful?

Is it different to everything else that's being published?

Does it represent what you've actually written or does it completely misrepresent

the style of the book that you've written?

All sorts of things.

Is there a strong theme that comes out of from the cover?

These things all really need to be thought about because as much as we hate to admit

it, people judge a book by its cover.

And particularly in the age of Instagram, bookstagram, TikTok,

Facebook, Twitter as well.

Twitter's kind of re aligned itself to share full length pictures,

which is perfect for book covers.

I saw One of the most obvious concrete examples of this is an indie author

who probably won't be indie for much longer called Eric LaRocca.

He wrote a novella, novellas sell really well, by the way,

despite what a lot of people say.

Definitely think about writing a novella, if you're self published.

He wrote a novella called, Things Have Gotten Worse Since We Last Spoke,

and the publishing team behind him, the indie publishing team behind him

licensed a painting by an amazing, I think Dutch author, who paints these

wonderful portraits of people that are completely messed up, but the colors

are bright blues and ochres and reds.

And then there's this beautiful cover image with this cool title, Things

Have Gotten Worse Since We Last Spoke.

And when he revealed that cover image, it went viral.

And as a result, he sold, I think he sold 20,000 copies of that book now,

which is unheard of for an author, just entering the indie space.

I think he's been writing for a while, but this is his first big successful book.

So the power of cover design is everything.

And maybe it's because I also now paint book covers for indie authors, but I

am very aware that font placement and color and all those things are things

you really need to carefully think about if you want a book to do well.

So that's the most practical bit of advice I can think of for a self-published author

looking to get some traction when they publish a book is, think about your cover.

Also think about how well it's formatted and edited.

It is worth spending money again, or finding a friend, or just spending as

much extra time as you need learning how to format a book correctly.

So that it's a nice experience for a reader.

I've seen lots of books reviewed poorly because the readers are

frustrated with the typos or the layout or the look of the book.

Readers deserve a nice experience.

So those are some practical things, more practical things to think about

if you're publishing through Amazon.

If you're planning on sending books out to people, the smaller your

book is, the less it will cost in terms of postage and imprinting.

There are lots of practical considerations.

There are lots of other platforms other than Amazon to publish on as well.

So do your research and test the waters may be with a novella or a novelette.

See what works and what doesn't.

So those are the mechanics, that's my advice.

In terms of the actual writing, the most sage bit of advice, I hate giving out

advice because it makes me feel like I'm an authority figure and something

I'm really not, and I'm still learning.

It's what piece of advice is good for you?

The thing that I've found that's worked for me more than anything else.

And it's something that I keep returning to, is if you write stuff based on

what you think people want to read, it won't be as good as if you write

something that is what you want to write.

If you get caught up in, oh, this particular genre is doing well at

the moment, or writers want likable characters, or they want this, or

they want that, then you're going to end up writing something which isn't

authentic to you and readers can tell.

They can absolutely tell when something isn't there.

Do you know what I mean?

The soul isn't quite there because you've got so hung up in what you thought

would perform well with readers that you forgot about yourself in the process.

If you write for yourself in terms of the things you want to explore and talk

about, and the things that are personal to you and relevant to you, you will

find it an enjoyable writing experience.

If you enjoy writing the book, the chances are people will enjoy reading it.

And that's the core piece of advice I keep coming back to is you have to have

some enjoyment in the process or people aren't going to enjoy reading it, I think.

So, just try and stay as true to yourself as you can with what you write,

which isn't always easy when you're on commission and you can't always indulge,

like we've spoken about, but on the whole you write what makes you happy.

Or fires you up or explore something you're struggling with.

And that authenticity, which is a word I keep using again and again,

but it's so important for people because it gives you a voice and

voices as a writer is everything.

You quite often hear reviewers pick up a book and they say, this is in

so-and-so's voice and it's clear and it's steady and that's because

you know what you're writing.

And it's real to you.

And I think that's really important.

Yeah, that's perfect.

I think enjoy what you write, something that you're passionate about

and be authentic, is fundamental.

And I think that's a great place to end the interview.

So I'd just like to thank you, Gemma, so much for being my guest today.

Thank you for having me.

It was, it was a pleasure.

And that was the real voting process of Gemma Amor.

If you'd like to hear more about Gemma, you can find all of her details

on her website, GemmaAmorAuthor.com.

You can also find Gemma on Instagram and Twitter under

the handle, @manylittlewords.

And on Facebook under the handle @littlescarystories.

And if you liked this episode, please consider leaving a review.

I'm currently a team of one and the more positive reviews I get, the more

authors are likely to want to come on the show and share that process with you.

Thank you all for listening.

Until next time.