This podcast delves into the crucial topic of conflict resolution, emphasizing the importance of focusing on making things right rather than merely being right. Host Aaron Santmyire engages in an insightful discussion with Pastor Rod Loy, who shares his extensive experience and wisdom on navigating conflicts in a healthy, Christ-like manner. The conversation highlights the significance of humility, the power of effective apologies, and the necessity of face-to-face communication to safeguard relationships. Pastor Rod also addresses the detrimental effects of venting frustrations publicly and encourages listeners to consider the impact of their words on those closest to them. With practical strategies and heartfelt insights, this episode aims to equip listeners—especially missionaries and leaders—with the tools needed to foster understanding and resolve conflicts constructively.

Takeaways:

• Conflict resolution should focus on making it right, not on being right.
• Listening actively to others is essential in resolving conflicts effectively and gracefully.
• Going public with conflict often escalates tensions and creates unnecessary drama in relationships.
• A wise apology involves taking full responsibility, avoiding passive-aggressive language that blames others.
• Maintaining humility and prioritizing relationships over winning arguments leads to healthier interactions.
• Controlling emotions during conflict can be achieved through techniques like modified combat breathing.

Hey there and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast. This podcast is all about providing clarity insight and encouragement for life and mission.

And my name is Aaron Sandemire and I get to be your host today. We get to sit down with Pastor Rod Doy and learn from him on conflict resolution and how to navigate conflict.

In a healthy way.

Pastor Rod shared at a meeting I was at in Dubai a few weeks ago.

And I just thought after that it'd be great to have him on the podcast because he really challenged me and to learn and grow and not to stay complacent, but to grow in how I navigate conflict.

And you'll hear from as he references many books in the podcast, he's a reader, he's a learner, and he comes with many years of wisdom and experience. And so we get to learn from Pastor Rod on what it looks like to change our posture from trying to make it right rather than being right.

And how our attitude going into a situation is how can I make this right? Not on being not being right.

We'll talk about what an apology really looks like and how we can not explain away or blame the other person for the way they feel. Or sometimes we apologize for things that we didn't necessarily do.

At the same time, Pastor Rod, he points back to we want to make it right, not on being right. He'll talk about the ideas around conflict, on how it's best to to have the conversation. Is it better through a text, better through an email?

Is it better face to face? And he'll emphasize the importance he places on being face to face and having those conversations so that we can guard the relationship.

And you'll hear that come through throughout the Pastor Rod wants to guard the relationship and he does all that he can to do that. The last thing that one of the last things we talk about is guarding the heart of those closest to us.

And I think many of us that serve in life and ministry, sometimes we can let conflict spill out to others. And he'll talk about and share about how sometimes we're able to move on, but those closest to us are not because we've overshared.

Just some great wisdom, some great insight and experience. I think that will help us all. Many of the people that listen into this podcast are missionaries.

The number one reason missionaries continue to leave the field is because of conflict. And it's conflict that is not managed or navigated in a healthy, Christ like way.

And my hope is that this podcast will be an encouragement to all of us, whether you're a businessman Whether you are in the ministry, whether you're a missionary, but specifically for missionaries, this is something we can grow in. This is something that we can learn to navigate.

We're able to have difficult conversations or heart conversations that we learned a few episodes ago, but we're able to have these conversations so we can guard the relationship and learn to grow in. That would ask you to continue to subscribe to the podcast and other podcasts I subscribe to are the ones I listen to.

They show up on my feet on Monday or Tuesday and continue to send in your questions for back channel with Foth. That's where we get to sit down with Dick Foth and get to learn from him. And yeah, just looking forward to some episodes in the days to come.

Great content in the days to come and appreciate having guests like Pastor Rod. Well, there's no time better than now to get started. So here we go.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast. So excited to be here today with a friend of the podcast, Pastor Rod Loy. Pastor Rod, welcome back to the podcast.

Thank you. Honored to be with you today.

It's a joy to have you back. We got to spend a little bit of time together in Dubai and you were presenting there in Dubai and got to learn a lot from you.

From somebody who's listening into the podcast for the first time and they've not had the honor to meet. Pastor Rod Lloyd, would you share a little bit about yourself before I start asking you a bunch of questions?

I pastor at church in North Little Rock, Arkansas, and I love missions and I love my family. Both my sons work with me. I got two grandkids who I love, and we're excited that we're soon to be in the holidays.

Wow.

Yeah. I would imagine as a pastor, this is getting to one of the busier times of year. Would that be correct?

This would be the busiest time of year. So lots. Lots of activity.

Lots of activity. Good stuff. Good stuff. Well, I like it because there's lots of good apple pie to be eaten. So that's my. That's my sweet spot.

So, Pastor, Pastor Rob, we're going to get to learn from you today when it comes to conflict resolution and navigating conflict. And so just going to start off by asking a question.

What are some reasons do you have found that maybe American Christians, or maybe Christians in general struggle to navigate conflict in a healthy way?

I can speak better to American Christians since that's my most of the time context, but I suspect that much of that is applicable to others as well, yeah, yeah, I think we have a basic misunderstanding of conflict. I just finished reading a book, Aaron. The title of it is High Conflict by Amanda. Really, really good book.

To help understand why conflict gets elevated and why we seek out and are attracted to conflict. And we, at the one point we're attracted to conflict, on the other hand, we want conflict to end. It's a, it's a very interesting dichotomy.

I, I think conflict has always been there. I mean, in your part of the country, you can go back to the hatfields and the McCoys. That's true.

So I mean, it's, it's been there and we can go back, you know, generations before that.

But currently in America, the social media is really exaggerated conflict because now you get a built in audience that's carefully curated to agree with you. And so everyone who agrees with you on your side of the conflict has a tendency then to make you more entrenched in your opinion.

And because you only hear supporting voices for your biased opinion, it reinforces that you're right and the other person is wrong. And we've become very, we've become very us versus them.

And then if you add in for Christians that we have, we have lost sight of our assignment to be salt and light in the world to add seasoning and flavor. And we have reinterpreted scripture to mean that taking a stand means we need to be visibly angry at the world around us.

Even though James said the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God, or I think the NIV says God, man's anger doesn't bring about God's desired intent. We have decided that God needs our anger in order to correct the wrongs with the world.

And then we take that and we bring it right into the church and right into our relationships with other believers. And when we do, you know, it's just a horrible witness to the world.

If Jesus said they'll know us by our love, then currently they're not knowing us very well.

Wow.

Wow.

You said, how could you go 15 different ways with, I mean, you said a lot there in a short amount of time.

Pastor Rod, as you navigate, when people bring that, become echoing chambers and then bring that into the church, how do you walk alongside them for them to be able to see outside of that? Like you shared that we're called to be salt and light.

We're, you know, I share, I've never heard in somebody's testimony, you know, someone was angry and mad and hateful to me and I thought, I want to be like them. And so they said they were Christian. And I gave my heart to Jesus. Like, you know, I've grown up in the church.

I've never heard that part of somebody's testimony. But how do you.

How do you pastor people through that to see the impact they're having on the people who are there to try to reach and share the love of Christ?

You know, another. Another recent book, but really it's not a book about conflict. The Anxious Generation is the title. And in it, he.

In talking about teachers and students, he talks about, you have to figure out, do they want to be hugged, heard, or helped.

Wow.

And so that just those three words are really good concept to help people as they navigate conflict. Because so often we think that person.

They want to be helped or our assignment is to help them when often what they just want to be is heard, and occasionally they just need a hug.

Yeah.

And so if I can get people to focus not on I need to help them see things my way, or I need to help them see things better and instead get to them to focus on just hearing the other person. Most of the time, we don't even hear the other person. We are. We are thinking about our answer while they are talking.

And we never just listen to what they say. You know, another real good book is you're not listening. Just.

I think if we would learn basic listening to understand instead of listening to rebuttal. And so I try to help people to just listen to each other.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's good. That's good. Pastor Rod, one of the guiding principles that you shared was this guiding principle of focusing on making it right when there's a.

When there's tension or there's conflict and not being right posture. Can you share about that? And some reasons that this is vital. When we're navigating a. Maybe a conflict or a tension that's.

Arisen in conflict resolution, it might be the key.

Okay.

To focus on making it right instead of being right. The goal is not to win.

Yeah.

The goal is to resolve the conflict. So being right is all about me. It's what I want, what I need, what will make me happy.

Making it right is about the kingdom, what's best for others, what will advance the cause of Christ, what will further his purpose. Being right is pride. It's my ego, my reputation, my recognition. When my focus is on being right, I'm upfront. Making it right is humility.

Not advancing myself, but seeing how I can put you first. My definition of humility is others first. Me last. Being right is about winning. And we all know those people who they want to get in the last word.

And everything's a competition. And, you know, if. If you broke your arm, they've got a goiter. I mean, they're going to win no matter what happens. And those people don't win.

They actually lose. They lose relationship, they lose influence. Making it right is about continuing relationship.

I may not win every point, but I want to be in a relationship with you. And that relationship matters more to me than competition or winning. Being right is often about saving face. How will people think about me?

How will people see me? It's very concerned about your own reputation. Making is right is about moving forward. I don't have to be right, you don't have to be right.

Let's make it right together. Being right worries about what others think.

Yeah.

And what others need to know is I'm right. It's a really selfish way to approach conflict in life where making it right worries about what God thinks.

You may not think of as much as me, but you're not my judge. One of the things the Lord has taught me in the last few years, it's been a painful lesson.

There's a story behind the lesson is my way is just that my way doesn't mean it's the right way. It doesn't mean it's the only way. Doesn't even mean it's the best way. It's just my way.

And when I insist on things being done my way or I present my way as the best way, I close off the input of others. And I'm learning that things don't have to be done my way. We just have to make the progress. Things just have to be done.

And so much of conflict is your way wasn't right. My way is better. I'm going to make sure everybody knows it. I'm going to prove it. And the cost is relational.

Wow.

Pastor Rod, if somebody's listening in and maybe they're on a team or maybe that's. Maybe it's them and they struggle with this wanting to be right.

And maybe it's a teammate that, you know, wants to get in, as you said, the last word, or if they broke an arm, they got a goiter.

I think you said how when you're in trying to develop a relationship with somebody like that, how do you navigate the one up, one upmanship when they're. They're trying to outdo you or to get the last word in, how do you posture yourself in those type of situations.

What I used to do was search for an area where they knew nothing. Like I had a friend, he always had to be the guy who knew everything. So I just keep searching for an area where he knew nothing.

And then I just camped on that area. Well, that was, that was manipulative and probably a little bit mean. Now what I do instead is I tend to just. I tend to just listen.

Okay.

I tend to just sit there and listen to them and let them kind of run out. And I recognize that often in that it's because they need affirmation. And so I'll go ahead and give them the little bit of affirmation they want. But.

But I just drop out of the competition and. And when you make everything a competition, the problem with competition is it takes two to compete. True.

And if I just drop out and I won't be in the competition with you, you talk yourself out pretty quick and generally look foolish as you try to keep convincing everyone how smart you are. And I just sit there. Ultimately, you don't look very smart.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that takes a lot of self discipline. You know, I mean, you know, not want to talk and it takes a lot of self discipline.

And I think that's definitely, definitely room that I can grow in and probably we can all grow in that self discipline to listen. I love how you said though, competition, competition takes at least two people. Right. And so if you drop out, then there's.

It's no longer a competition and going back to what you, you know, your. For your first principle there not being right or not having to, but on making it right in the relationship. That's there. So good, good, good stuff.

You also shared about the wisdom of an apology and what a good apology sounds like. It really resonated with me. It's something that I'm trying to grow in.

So could you just share about an apology and what a wise apology looks like and how we can avoid blaming the other person or trying to. Yeah. Not own our part in it. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

You know, so much, so many apologies I hear are passive aggressive apologies.

Okay.

I'm sorry if I hurt you. In other words, you little person, why would you have got hurt by that? Or I'm sorry if I offended you. So you're immature.

You shouldn't have been offended in. Our apologies are actually attacks.

Wow.

And we just, we just wrap it in this kind of Christianese. But it's, it's really obvious once you're aware of it, just how immature it is. I've Learned Aaron, that I don't have to be in the wrong to apologize.

If. If you're upset with me, I'm sorry I didn't. And I don't. I don't. Again, if it's.

If I'm not focused on winning or proving that you're immature or wrong, I just apologize. I teach my team. There's three components to an effective apology. Number one, I'm sorry, not I'm sorry. If.

If the word if is in your apology, it's not an apology. It's not I'm sorry if I offended you. It's I'm sorry I offended you.

Yeah.

I mean, I got an apology from somebody this morning that says, I'm sorry if I came across aggressive. In other words, he's saying I misinterpreted.

Yeah.

Instead of saying, I'm sorry I was aggressive in that.

Yeah.

I shouldn't have that. Just say, I'm sorry. And then second, I was wrong again. It doesn't matter if I think I was wrong. If you think I was wrong, I was wrong.

I'm sorry I was wrong. What can I do to make it right when I do that? Now, that puts you in the seat where you get to choose whether or not to act like a Christian.

I've apologized. You decide whether you forgive me or not. I'm not in control of that. And when I say, what can I do to make it right?

If you don't have an answer to that question, then that reveals that you. You don't want to resolve something. You. You want to win or you want to blame.

I don't know when we decided apologizing was admitting fault or taking blame. I apologize all the time for things I didn't do.

Yeah.

And when I say, I'm sorry, will you forgive me? Now they get to decide, will I honor God with my response or will I not? And so, you know, in church work all the time, you get people angry.

You didn't do this. The church didn't do this. They'll be mad at the youth pastor. And I'll say, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'll let you down. How can I make that right?

And it just. It takes the emotion out of it.

Wow.

Is that something you've learned over time? I mean, is that something you've grown in? Because to me, that. I think that is a. Yeah. It's another growth area, I think, for all of us.

If you just have. You had to practice it and not want to be defensive. Or maybe there are days you wake up and think, man, all I'm doing is apologizing.

And I didn't even do any. I don't know. Does that make sense, Pastor Rod?

Oh, yeah. I like everyone, I have the natural inclination to defend.

Okay.

But when, when I defend, I kind of take an Old Testament look at this, Aaron. And so, so I look at all the times in the Old Testament where they were facing an intimidating army and they had, they had no chance.

You know, let's go to First Chronicles and Jehoshaphat praises famous prayer. Lord, we don't know what to do, but our eyes are on you.

I mean, we, we can go down through all the, the overmatched moments when, when people didn't have a chance, they knew, and so they knew that they couldn't defend themselves. They had to rely on the Lord. And then we have multiple times where God says, hey, the battle's not yours. The battle belongs to me.

So my Old Testament look at this is if I decide to fight the battle, what I'm saying is, lord, I want to handle this one without you. I'm going to fight this battle because I don't think you're capable of defending me.

And because you're not capable of defending me, I'm going to defend myself because. Or because my life doesn't stand up, my character doesn't stand up on its own, I'm going to try to deflect attention by defending.

When you defend yourself, you never win. People, people who are against you become more against you. People who are on your side begin to look and say, well, why is he reacting like that?

So I just, I've just decided that it's not my responsibility to defend myself. I will leave that in the hands of the Lord.

And if you can, if you can respond to an affront or an attack without being defensive, you are way ahead of the game.

Yeah.

And, and I just think, I mean, practically, do you want to defend yourself or do you want the God who created lightning to defend you?

Very true. Very, very true. And as you, as you eloquently say that, it's not even a choice. It's not even a choice. And so. No. Really appreciate that, school.

That's gold. Pastor Rod. I think kind of on those lines of defending, wanting to defend ourselves, sometimes we go.

When there's a conflict, we can go public with it.

You know, I mean, rather than having a conversation with the person trying to seek that reconciliation or resolution with the person, we'll maybe go public with it. What are some of the dangers of going public with a conflict that you found.

And, you know, I think it's the number one mistake people make. And I understand you want to build your case. You want to make sure people hear your side of the story. You will make sure you win.

But that's bad conflict resolution. It's also sin. I mean, we. The problem is we still have to deal with what the word says and what the word says about gossip. And when the word.

What the word says about speaking against the brother, you know, James, chapter 4, verse 11. Don't speak evil against each other. So when you go public, several things happen. Number one, the situation escalates.

Okay?

It doesn't get better. It gets worse as more people get involved. And when you share it with someone else, one of three things can happen, two of which are bad.

Number one, they can agree with you. That's bad. It's really bad. Because now you've drawn them into your dysfunctional pattern and your sin.

And when you resolve the conflict, you can't even. You can't figure out how to go back and make sure everyone you shared it with knows you've resolved it. So you're causing them to sin.

Number two, they can disagree with you. That's bad, because all of a sudden, instead of having one conflict, you got two.

Yeah.

And then the third possibility is they can confront your sin. And that's the good thing. That doesn't happen very often.

And the reason it doesn't is because they know if you have the character to talk to them about someone else, you will talk to someone else about them. And so they don't want that, so they avoid confronting. When you go public, other people pick up your offense, especially children and spouses.

I hear the stories of someone who's mad at church for something that didn't happen to them but supposedly happened to someone else. And when you're. When people pick up your offense, they don't automatically pick up your forgiveness.

Wow.

When you go public, it's. It's harder to back off your statements. You've said it, and you've said it in multiple places. And all of a sudden, yeah, it's.

You've doubled down on that. It becomes difficult. You know, I see. I see a lot of times in.

In the church world, and I see sometimes in agwm this challenge when you share down what you should share up, you're the problem. When you have a problem with your leader and you share it with your followers, your actions are unbiblical and they resemble absalom.

And when you do that, you are volunteering to no longer be a leader. And we should ratify that and take you out of leadership. If you can't resolve a problem with your immediate leader, elevate it to the next level.

And people say, well, I can't go with their heads. Well, wait a second. That's not a sin. That's a scriptural pattern.

Wow.

And so if we have a problem with someone, we can't resolve it. We go to a spiritual authority. But we have, we become very institutional. We have institutionalized that we can never disagree.

And if you go over my head, you're automatically wrong. No, it's. It, it's. We can no longer circle the wagon to protect abusive leaders, abusive words, or abusive actions.

It's not that the leader is automatically right and the followers automatically wrong. We need to remove bad leaders, but we need to do it in right ways.

And when you go public building your case or you just, you don't have the fruit of the spirit of self control. So in all kinds of conversations, you share that you're not helping your case. You actually heard it. I. When.

So for instance, if a missionary comes to our place and they complain about their leader or they complain about the 7%, we drop them from support.

Wow.

Automatic. It's an automatic. You don't even have to talk to me. Just drop them.

Because they're evidencing a spiritual immaturity in their life and I don't want to fund their immaturity.

Good word. Good word. Pastor Rod, what does it look like? You talked about the three responses. Somebody could agree with you and that was not good.

The second, the third one was they could confront you and that, that's good, but not necessarily what the person wants to hear. What does it look like? Maybe an example of somebody comes and shares. I come and share something with you.

What would it look like for you to confront me in a way that, hey, Aaron, you shouldn't have been sharing? That's. This is not the way you should go about this.

Any words, kind of not a template, but kind of words to get somebody started on what that would look like? Because I think maybe they don't know how to begin that conversation and maybe they've never done it before. Yeah. Would you be able to share?

How would you do that?

If I come and share it, I'm complaining about Frank, my boss and or someone else or somebody I serve and you hear me talk and I'm the complaining to it about you and the conflict that we're Having. How would you confront me on Aaron? Does that make sense?

Yeah. So let's. So you followed Scott Hansen, his area director. You come to me and complain about Scott.

My very first question would be, have you talked to Scott about it?

And if your answer is no, I say, well, then I love you, but I can't have this conversation because if you haven't talked to him about it, this is gossip. And gossip is sin. And I don't want to risk that. I don't want to sow those seeds because I know I'll reap that harvest.

Now, if there's some reason that you can't talk to Scott about your problem with him, I'll be glad to get on the phone with you. I'll be glad to meet with him with you.

When someone comes in my office and they've got a problem with the youth pastor, I do the same thing every time. I say, hold on just a second. And I pick up my phone and I call Gary and I say, gary, Paul is here in my office, and she's got a problem with you.

Do you have 10 minutes where you could come down and hear her problem with you? And then when he walks in, I say, now, I'm sure y'all don't need me, so I'll just be out in the other room. Let me know.

Let me know, Paula, Go ahead and share it. Well, here's what happens. They don't do that to me very often because they know I'm going to be a party to that.

The other thing I do, and it's another lesson I've learned recently, is they'll talk and they'll go through all their anger, and I will tell a story, and I've got a story that I learned a lesson from. I'll tell my story. It takes about seven, eight minutes. And then I'll say, here's what I learned.

I am responsible for the position of my heart, not you. It doesn't matter what he did or how he lied or how he manipulated or how he hurt me. I'm responsible for the position of my heart.

David said, let the words of my mouth and meditations of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer. I want my. The position of my heart to be pleasing to the Lord.

If you can choose the position of my heart, I've given you way too much power, authority, or control. Your influence means way too much for me. And so I challenge them. Get the position of your heart, right?

And then when the position of Your heart is right. It changes the way you approach conflict. And it just. Everything's different when your heart is positioned right.

And when my heart is positioned right towards you, I may suddenly find that I don't feel this compulsion to make sure everyone knows you're wrong and I'm right. I want my heart to please the Lord, and that's actually a higher standard, and it's really challenging. Yeah, I'm still learning.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. I appreciate the. The practical example of what that looks like and how you're. How you.

You walk alongside people and make the opportunity there for them to go about it in the right way. The example you just shared there, you don't just.

You. You make it.

You create the environment for it to happen. And that's. That's. I think that's a valuable lesson for us all and really, really appreciate it.

Pastor Rod, you mentioned the idea of you're growing and growing in that. How have you learned to grow in controlling your emotions? In conflict, specifically?

Maybe if something that you feel very strongly about, how have you learned to not let your emotions to rise up? I can always tell them I'm getting into my emotions because my voice does this little quiver. And, you know, it's. It's a tell for me.

It's probably a tell for everybody else in the room, but, you know, I can. You know, I begin, and that's kind of my sign. I'm trying to lear. I need to learn, like, three steps before that. But how have you.

How have you learned to control your emotions when it comes to conflict?

One of my favorite things, a friend of mine, Dr. Sandy Morgan, who works with victims of human trafficking, she taught me modified combat breathing. And so you put the tongue on your roof.

You put your. The tip of your tongue on the roof of your mouth.

You close your mouth, you breathe in through your nose for four counts, keeping the tongue on the roof of your mouth. And you hold for four counts, tongue still on the roof of your tip of your tongue still on the roof of your mouth.

Then you breathe out for four counts through your mouth. Tip of the tongue still on the roof of your mouth. If I do that, and I can do that while we're talking, while you're yelling at me, I can do that.

I can control my physiological response. And if I can control the physiological response, that fight or flight mechanism.

Yeah.

And whether it's a catch in your voice or it's you shake, if I can control that physiological response, then that helps remind me that I can control my Verbal response as well. A lot of times the verbal response is a result of the physiological response.

And so it's very common for me in a meeting to do modified combat breathing. I did it yesterday in a meeting because somebody's just being completely unreasonable and I didn't want to match their level of unreasonableness.

And so while they were ranting, I was breathing. Yeah, it's kind of, that's not really a spiritual answer, but it's a practical answer that works for me.

Yeah, well. And it, it keeps your frontal lobe right engaged. You know, you talk flight of freight. If the frontal load shuts down and you become into reaction.

It's real hard to want to be the follow example of Christ when you're not, you're not really, you're not really using the logical part of your brain or you're not allowing you're. Because you're just, you're in that reactionary mode. But no, it's, it's an excellent, an excellent way to do it. Appreciate the practicality.

And something I think we can all do doesn't take a tool. It's just to remember tongue. Tip of the tongue of the roof of the mouth. And you said in four seconds, hold four seconds and out four seconds.

Was that correct?

Yeah. And most of the time, even somebody in a major freak out anxiety account attack. The worst I've ever seen.

I had them do five cycles and they were calm most of the time. Two or three cycles and somebody calms down.

Wow. Wow.

Now I'm interested in studying the physiology behind the tongue on the roof of the mouth and what all that works.

So very interesting. It is.

And whoever had the, whoever had the wisdom to come up with it. So not me, that's for sure.

So very, very cool when you, when it comes to say there's a conflict and do you find it's best to, to go about that via email or text or. What's your preferred way to communicate when there's some tension or you feel there's tension and conflict is coming?

No, I watched it this week with a, with an email and then I responded to the email with a question and I obviously hit a nerve and it got a very dramatic response and I didn't know I was hitting a nerve. I thought it was just stuck. I didn't know it was emotional. I just thought it was stuff and so I wouldn't worry about it. So then, okay, I'm done.

I'm done with the email chain. People, people can't catch toner intent in emails or Texts. And my experience is most of the time, angry emails are written late at night.

Yeah, exactly.

You're at your computer and you're like, I'm gonna show them. And you're, you're hitting those keys and doing that. And the problem is then that email is read over and over.

Yeah.

And in today's world, that email is forwarded.

Yeah.

And you don't get a chance.

If you and I are in conflict and we do it over email and you misinterpret or I say it wrong, I don't get the chance to immediately fix it on email where if we're face to face, I can see, oh, that, that didn't land.

Yeah.

And I can say, okay, I'm sorry, I just said, I just communicate something I didn't mean to communicate. I think conflict resolution should always be face to face.

I will get on a plane and fly across the country to resolve a conflict with a friend because the relationship matters to me much. That. That much.

Yeah.

And we just, in our instant society, we want to instantly vent. Instant venting is never wise. Never works.

Yeah, that's good. I. I agree with you.

I don't think I have a rule that I don't send emails after 8:00 because I've just, I mean, just as you said, I've regretted about every email I've sent after 8:00, you know, because it's just, I don't know if it's jokingly say, but there's probably some of it.

You know, I'm tired and then it's further away from my abiding time with Jesus and it's like once it gets to the end of the day, the filter's gone and I'm less like Jesus. And as you said, I've regretted a lot of emails that I've sent late in the evening.

And it just happens, man. I don't understand, but it happens.

So how then do we balance, Pastor Rod? Those raw emotions of wanting to respond really quickly and then not stuffing it and then never having the conversation, does that make sense?

And so there is a conflict.

And maybe you're conflict avoiding and so you don't want to have the conversation immediately because you're afraid it's going to be raw emotions or like an email at 8 o'clock, you're just saying way too much and you've not had some time to process, but not then waiting, letting it go for weeks and months and stuffing it and never having the conversation and trying to resolve it. Does that make Sense. It's kind of an either or question. But how do we get the sweet spot?

One of the questions I ask myself, is this personal or corporate? Okay, because if it's. If it's personal, if I said my feelings hurt, it's probably not something I need to worry about resolving.

Okay?

I need to get. I need to get over it. If I'm offended. You know, the book by Brant Hansen, Unoffendable is a great book. I can choose not to be offended.

That's my choice. If it's corporate, now we're going to have to resolve it. So often what I will do is write an email and then not send it.

Okay?

So I will.

I will get all my thoughts down and I'll pile them out there, and then I'll let it sit for 24 hours, and then I'll go back and read my thoughts again, absent the original emotion, and see, okay, what are really core issues here? And what was my emotional reaction then? When we talk, I want to talk about core issues, not all this other stuff. And I want to take.

I want to take my personal emotional reaction out of it. I know the Bible says, don't let the sun go down on your anger.

I think sometimes what we need to do is just get on a plane and keep flying in the direction of the sun. But what I don't want is. I don't want to have the quick anger, but I want to stay current in a relationship. So I'm not going to.

If you hold it in and let it simmer, then you become bitter. I'm not going to do that. But sometimes if I'll hold it for a day, I'll find out. It's really not that big a deal.

Yeah.

And I have learned not much is really a big deal. Really not much. So we have a secret code on our team. So I tell them, here's how you know something's a big deal.

When I really think about it, in the light of our mission, in the light of his grace, not much is a big deal.

And I appreciate the shepherding spirit of that also, Pastor Rod, because it allows the people around you to know, you know, I mean, and they're not guessing and wondering is, is this a big deal? You know, I mean, it takes the guessing out of it. Because if it's that, that a expressive, you know, that this is. This is A big deal.

And so that's a lesson, I think, for all of us, because sometimes you're just. Just you're trying to figure out. You know what I mean? And you're trying to figure out is a big deal, not a big deal.

And sometimes you're spending emotions and energy on sideways where it doesn't need to be spent.

Exactly. And most. Most conflict is just about stuff. Yeah, it's about stuff that. It's about stuff that doesn't matter.

Yeah.

If it. Conflict. Eyes in yesterday, I thought it was just stuff. I didn't know it was emotional.

Yeah.

And so the difference was for the other person, it was more than. More than stuff. Okay, well, then I need to. I need to back off. I thought. I didn't think this is a big deal.

Yeah, yeah, it's good.

It's good work.

So most conflict is about. Yeah, it's just dumb stuff.

One last question I have for you. You shared earlier about our kids and maybe our spouses picking up offenses. How have you learned to guard the heart of those closest to you?

I guess the question is what to share, what not to share when there's conflict so that, you know, the people closest to us are not getting. Not getting the shrapnel. And as you shared earlier, sometimes once you've forgiven and moved on, they.

They've not necessarily forgiven to move on because they've not had the opportunity to have the conversation. So any wisdom when it comes to guarding the heart or trying to guard the heart of those closest to us?

Yeah, I hear. I hear some of our women pastors will say, why share everything with my husband? Well, that's dumb.

Or a guy will say, well, I tell everything to my wife. First of all, you don't. So you're lying. You don't tell them everything because they come to you and say, what's wrong? And you say nothing. So it's.

So you're a liar. First of all, you don't tell them everything.

Number two, some of those things you need to process in yourself and realize it's not a big deal before you go home and vent. And the problem is they. Your spouse has a protective instinct. They want to protect you, and so they want to get mad for you.

Sometimes they're more mad than you are, and then they hold that in. If I wait to share with Cindy until the position of my heart is right, then it's a much better chance for her heart to be positioned right. I.

If I have a problem with my leader, I don't go home Vent to Cindy. I. I first take that venting to the Lord. And when the position of my heart is right, then I can talk to Cindy.

Anytime I share out of a wrong heart position, I risk making the other person's heart position even worse. So I'm, I'm just not going to do that. And I'm sure there'll be people listening to the podcast who will say, well, that's not me.

I share everything with my spouse. Really? Really, you don't?

Yeah.

You don't.

And I have a responsibility to not pass along my offense because what a shame if I choose not to be offended, but because of my loose words, now my spouse is offended. And I, I think when that happens, I think you'll stand before God.

I think we have a lot of people, the reason their kids are away from the Lord is because their parents couldn't control their tongues when their feelings were hurt. And so they. They planted a seed of bitterness. And now the harvest is ugly. And I don't. I don't want to stand before God for my loose words.

And if we believe Scripture, which I have a tendency to, and if we, if we believe Jesus, he said, we'll stand. Account for every word we've spoken. That scares me enough to keep me quiet.

Yeah.

Pastor Rod, how did you. 1. I'm sorry, I said no more questions.

But with our children, you mentioned that, you know, a lot of times parents were not able to control that impacted their kids. A seed of bitterness. How did you. When there was conflict, when your boys were younger, at home or maybe even now, how do you separate that?

That's not. They're not caught up in that. And then you can still have a right relationship with someone and they're not catching your anger when it's your kids.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, I want to. I want to teach them that good people say wrong things and that we all say stuff we don't mean.

Yeah.

And what we do, Aaron, is we judge ourselves by our intent. We judge others by their words.

And if I can teach them to give other people the benefit of the doubt and not to connect angry words to mean bad person, then. Then I can. I go a long way towards helping them position their heart in the right way. Hey, I tell our team people say stuff all the time. It's.

I just in staff meeting a couple weeks ago, I talked about it, said, this is that time of year, holidays, people are going to be feeling stress and pressure, depression. People who are dealing with their first holiday without a loved one. Let's do this. Let's not hold their words against them for the next month.

Let's just understand that in some ways it's an honor to be the safe place where they can communicate their hurt. And let's not turn their outward expressions of hurt into a personal attack. Let's. Let's just give. Let's make space for grace for the next six weeks.

Good word. Good word and word for all. Yeah, when you do that, it's a little easier.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's. Pastor Rod, it's been an honor to spend some time with you today to learn from you.

Will you.

Will you pray for us?

You pray for those listening in that what you've shared is not just information that we have, but these would be things that will allow the Holy Spirit to put into action in our life. And we will be convicted at times that we will. The Holy Spirit will give us courage to have conversations as we move forward. Would you pray for us?

Yeah, I'd love to. Lord, we pray what David prayed. Let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be pleasing in your sight.

And then let my reactions and responses come from a heart that pleases you. In Jesus name, amen.

Amen.