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Spiritual Direction with Peter Watkins
Episode 2 • 19th June 2023 • Listening for Clues • On the Journey with Jon & Lauren
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Listening for Clues is pleased to present our new series, "Good News!" featuring weekly conversations with people who are making a difference, large or small. We want everyone to know what they are doing, why they are doing it, and how. So, our listeners and viewers can experience the good news and go out and make a difference themselves.

Spiritual Direction with Peter Watkins

We are honored to have Peter Watkins as our guest for this episode. Peter Watkins, M.Div. is a spiritual director, retreat leader, and faculty member at Sacred Ground Center for Spirituality, a school for the formation of aspiring spiritual directors. He has taught graduate level classes in Old Testament theology and adolescent psychology and spirituality, and has co-authored a high school textbook, Guarding the Fire: A Spiritual Guide for Young Men through Good Ground Press. He is also certified to give the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises. As a former high school philosophy and theology teacher of thirty years he especially loved leading student justice trips to Guatemala and pilgrimages on the Camino de Santiago in Spain. Peter is a life-long runner, father of three sons, and loves playing the guitar and banjo.

In this episode, our guest Peter Watkins talks about a "best-kept secret," Spiritual Direction: what it is, and what it is not. He covers the practical matters from finding a Spiritual Director/Companion to what a session might include. He also provides special insight into the Ignatian way of doing Spiritual Direction.

Highlights:

[00:00:00] Introduction 

[00:01:43] What is Spiritual Direction? 

[00:04:04] How Did You Get Started as a Spiritual Director?  

[00:06:16] Being a Spiritual Director is a Call from God 

[00:07:45] Surprises in Spiritual Direction 

[00:09:58] Ignatian Spiritual Direction: One Way 

[00:13:25] Finding a Spiritual Director 

[00:15:01] How Often to Meet Your Spiritual Director 

[00:15:44] What Happens in Spiritual Direction? 

[00:18:47] Formation for Spiritual Directors 

[00:21:12] What People Talk About in Spiritual Direction 

[00:25:45] Contact Information and Thanks

Resources mentioned in this episode:

CLICK --> Peter's Website

ADDITIONAL LINKS:

© 2023 Listening for Clues

Transcripts

Jon:

Welcome to Good News, brought to you by Listening for Clues.

Lauren:

We are Lauren Welch and Jon Shematek Deacons in the

Lauren:

Episcopal Diocese of Maryland.

Jon:

We sure are, and we're so glad you're here with us today.

Jon:

We have a special guest with us today who is Peter Watkins.

Jon:

Peter is a spiritual director, retreat leader, and faculty member at Sacred

Jon:

Ground Center for Spirituality, a school for the formation of

Jon:

aspiring spiritual directors.

Jon:

Peter has taught graduate level classes in Old Testament theology and

Jon:

adolescent psychology and spirituality.

Jon:

And has co-authored a high school textbook "Guarding the Fire, A

Jon:

Spiritual Guide for Young Men."

Jon:

through Good Ground Press.

Jon:

He's also certified to give the Ignatian spiritual exercises.

Jon:

As a former high school philosophy and theology teacher of 30 years, Peter,

Jon:

especially loved leading student justice trips to Guatemala and pilgrimages

Jon:

on the Camino de Santiago in Spain.

Jon:

Peter is a lifelong runner, father of three sons, and loves

Jon:

playing the guitar and banjo.

Jon:

Welcome Peter.

Peter:

Thank you.

Peter:

Thanks for having me.

Peter:

It's great to be here.

Lauren:

It's great to have you with us today, Peter.

Lauren:

Thank you again for being here.

Lauren:

Personally, I believe that spiritual direction as a spiritual

Lauren:

tool is a best kept secret.

Lauren:

So would you share with us your definition of spiritual direction and what or who

Lauren:

inspired you to be a spiritual director?

Peter:

Sure.

Peter:

Yeah, I really like what you said about spiritual direction

Peter:

being the best kept secret.

Peter:

And I think it's really growing quite a bit as people understand sort

Peter:

of what it is and some of the, the kind of the myths around it or just

Peter:

what, what is this kind of thing.

Peter:

So I'm happy to clarify that.

Peter:

Spiritual direction is, a process usually between a spiritual

Peter:

director and the directee.

Peter:

And the directee and the director.

Peter:

And, , it's funny, even because of the words director, a number of

Peter:

people prefer the word a companion or a soul companion or someone who

Peter:

accompanies so the director, that that phrase can feel like it's a little

Peter:

bit top down, like people will come expecting a formula or an answer.

Peter:

And really what spiritual direction is, it's about deep listening.

Peter:

And so as a director, I practice listening to what we call the directee, the

Peter:

person receiving spiritual direction.

Peter:

And then the two of us will listen to nudges from the Spirit, from God in

Peter:

getting a sense of where God is calling.

Peter:

In spiritual direction.

Peter:

People will ask all kinds of questions, sometimes about life

Peter:

direction or meaning purpose.

Peter:

Sometimes they'll be going through transitions and will need just someone

Peter:

to kind of bounce things off of.

Peter:

Oftentimes it's about prayer experiences and how to expand prayer.

Peter:

I like to think of this, the purpose of spiritual direction as the directee

Peter:

finding an inner freedom in life.

Peter:

So I, I'll keep, I could keep going there, but let me stop because I wanna make

Peter:

sure that you have a chance to speak too.

Peter:

I don't wanna monopolize everything here.

Jon:

So, Peter, this is this is a little, the reverse of spiritual direction

Jon:

because normally you're the listener and now we're here intently listening

Jon:

and, and kinda hanging on every word..

Peter:

It's a little strange.

Peter:

Like, oh, I have to talk.

Peter:

Yeah.

Jon:

It's a different role.

Jon:

So I, I am kind of curious.

Jon:

I don't think I ever asked you, you're, you are my spiritual director.

Jon:

I should probably disclose that to folks.

Jon:

I don't think I ever asked you or found out from you how you

Jon:

actually got started in this.

Jon:

I think Lauren was kind of starting to get at that too, but we're very curious

Jon:

about what is it that happened for you, or who is, did someone inspire you?

Jon:

Was there an event?

Jon:

How did this all come about for you to become a, spiritual companion?

Peter:

Well when I was working on my Master of Divinity degree part of

Peter:

that was doing what they call C P E which is where I was doing hospital

Peter:

chaplaincy and I found that the academic theology very important.

Peter:

I loved it.

Peter:

But this is really where the rubber hit the road was when I was really

Peter:

experiencing that direct connection with folks who were oftentimes

Peter:

in pain and asking big questions.

Peter:

And I thought, this is really where I experienced God.

Peter:

As I'm listening and being a chaplain in, the hospital.

Peter:

So that was one thing and that was sort of in my early thirties.

Peter:

And then as you mentioned in the bio, one of the things I loved to

Peter:

do was to take high school students.

Peter:

I was a high school teacher in a Catholic school for about 30 years

Peter:

teaching theology and philosophy.

Peter:

And in the summers I led four different groups on the Camino de Santiago.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

And what I found was that the best kind of teaching was really accompaniment

Peter:

walking with and loved that.

Peter:

And I loved instead of being in the role of the sage on the stage, you know,

Peter:

the chalk and the talk kind of stuff.

Peter:

I was just walking with folks and asking questions and found that there

Peter:

was a great deal of learning there.

Peter:

There was a spiritual direction formation program in the Twin Cities

Peter:

where I live and was just curious.

Peter:

And I went for a few classes, didn't really know if I wanted to

Peter:

be a spiritual director, but was sort of hooked and found that that

Peter:

really, was where God was calling me.

Jon:

Wow.

Jon:

Great.

Jon:

So and just to, just to kind of clarify, you see this as a vocation

Jon:

and a call , from God, but not a call to ordained ministry.

Jon:

Is that right?

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

Yeah.

Peter:

When I think about what priests and you all as deacons do, I'm like, oh my God.

Peter:

That is just, I really appreciate the, the one-on-one.

Peter:

The deep conversations and that's where I I like to be.

Peter:

Yeah.

Jon:

Yeah.

Jon:

And, and so what I, I guess I was kind of getting at, and Lauren, I

Jon:

don't know to what extent you think this is true, but at least I think

Jon:

in it may be pretty generally true.

Jon:

Peter, you, you probably have an idea about this too, is that , I think a

Jon:

lot of folks, at least that I know, think that spiritual direction is

Jon:

pretty much for people who are ordained or who are trying to, or discern

Jon:

a path toward ordained ministry.

Jon:

And I'd be interested in what you think about that.

Peter:

Yeah, most of my directees are lay people and and certainly we all

Peter:

have a call whether we're ordained or not, to our baptismal covenant.

Peter:

And that's, that's the most important thing, I think.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

Yeah, absolutely.

Peter:

And I have folks who are humanist, kind of agnostic as well.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

Who are really searching for a sense of meaning and purpose in life.

Peter:

So it doesn't always have to be you know, churchy kind of talk can be.

Peter:

Yeah.

Peter:

Yeah.

Lauren:

Sometimes that's the best.

Lauren:

Peter, what surprises you about spiritual direction when

Lauren:

you're accompanying someone?

Peter:

Hmm, great question.

Peter:

I'm always surprised.

Peter:

One of the models that I really like for thinking about what spiritual

Peter:

direction is, is sort of like a marriage counselor where there are two seats.

Peter:

There's the Directee and then the Holy Spirit or the Divine.

Peter:

And it's like, as a marriage counselor, you, you don't want to be spending your

Peter:

whole time talking to the couple, right?

Peter:

You wanna have them talk to each other.

Peter:

And so what, well, what is the spirit saying to you, or

Peter:

what is that like for you?

Peter:

And And then also kind of listening to the subtext or some of the deeper kinds

Peter:

of things that the, Directee is saying.

Peter:

And so I, I shouldn't be surprised at this point.

Peter:

You think I wouldn't be, but it's like this Spirit shows up

Peter:

in sometimes surprising ways.

Peter:

It's like, oh, there you are, you were here the whole time kind of thing.

Peter:

And there's something beautiful about spiritual direction.

Peter:

I, I also think of it as like Almost kind of sacramental in a way.

Peter:

You know, it's a ritual where, where two people and, the spirit enter into

Peter:

this sacred space and we're vulnerable.

Peter:

And then we, we ask questions and we reflect and In that way, I, I

Peter:

find that there's oftentimes some something that changes or switches.

Peter:

There's a new perspective.

Peter:

Sometimes there's a, an inspiration.

Peter:

Sometimes we just go deeper into the questions kind of thing.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

So that surprises me.

Peter:

I'm also surprised at my own shortcomings, which are many That they, I can kind

Peter:

of give myself a break a little bit and just realize that the directee will

Peter:

say, no, no, you're, you're off on that.

Peter:

That's not right.

Peter:

You know it.

Peter:

I think it's more this and that.

Peter:

At first, when I was first starting, I was like, oh, I didn't do that.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

But I'm just a lot more forgiving and I find that that helps too

Peter:

with the Spirit showing up.

Peter:

Yeah.

Peter:

You asked me too about different inspirations and one of the things that

Peter:

I love about the training that I received it is, Ignatian, which means that it

Peter:

was inspired by Ignatius of Loyola.

Peter:

Who was many of you know, is a 16th century Spanish soldier who had

Peter:

a amazing conversion experience.

Peter:

But, I would say his superpower would be that he could discern God's will for

Peter:

him and could sort of teach other people how to develop this kind of intuition.

Peter:

And I suppose, when people ask you what would be your superpower, that would

Peter:

be a pretty good one to have, right.

Peter:

And he talked about just kind of feeling deeply in the heart and the soul, a sense

Peter:

of either consolation or desolation.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

And for him, it's you know, we're always moving.

Peter:

One way or the other.

Peter:

And to move, to get a sense of wait, would, is this decision moving me

Peter:

towards God, towards life and love?

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

Or is it moving me away from it?

Peter:

And it's not always so easy on the surface to discern that.

Peter:

And I love kind of working with folks around asking that que

Peter:

the questions of discernment.

Lauren:

So when you do the spiritual exercises, there's several

Lauren:

different ways to doing them.

Lauren:

I mean, it's not just a 30 day, week retreat.

Lauren:

Can you say what are the different ways you do these spiritual exercises?

Peter:

Sure.

Peter:

Yeah, there are different ways.

Peter:

Not everybody can just up and leave and Do a 30 day retreat out in a retreat center.

Peter:

So Ignatius realized that.

Peter:

And so he also had the possibility of lay folks meeting with the spiritual

Peter:

director once a week, but they would spend about an hour or more a day in

Peter:

their regular lives doing the exercises.

Peter:

It was kind of an initiation for the Society of Jesus or the Jesuits, and

Peter:

they would undergo that and it's a powerful, transformative experience.

Peter:

So the exercises would be there are sort of four quote unquote weeks.

Peter:

That a person would undergo.

Peter:

The first thing though is to really have a sense of God's love for you.

Peter:

And then it's a kind of a going down, looking at the things that keep us

Peter:

from God and then a coming back up accompanying Jesus using scripture.

Peter:

And again, getting a sense of my purpose in life and and

Peter:

what God is hoping for you.

Peter:

So there's a lot more to say about the spiritual exercise.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

But it really is powerful and I hope people will look into to doing them.

Jon:

Right.

Jon:

That being said certainly just to kind of underline what you said a little

Jon:

earlier, spiritual direction is not necessarily for folks that belong

Jon:

to a particular or any religion no.

Jon:

So for people who have zero experience with spiritual

Jon:

direction, Peter, how does it work?

Jon:

What's the commitment that people need to make to one another?

Jon:

Is it, you, you say it's one-on-one, is that usually the case, that it's a

Jon:

one-on-one relationship or whereas , I've heard people talk about group spiritual

Jon:

direction, which I think must be a completely different kind of experience.

Jon:

Right,

Peter:

right.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

Yeah.

Peter:

So one of the things people ask is, well, if I was interested in that,

Peter:

how would I find a spiritual director?

Peter:

Yes.

Peter:

There's a wonderful group called Spiritual Directors International, if

Peter:

you just Google that there's a long list of spiritual directors it's

Peter:

important to think about whether you would like to be in person or on Zoom.

Peter:

And you know, initially when we started doing zoom spiritual

Peter:

direction, I was dubious.

Peter:

I thought, oh, you know, I, being in person I think is just much better.

Peter:

I can read body language, there's just a feel, and, and that's

Peter:

true, but I'm surprised at how good Zoom can be actually.

Peter:

And it also opens you up to being able to find lots of different

Peter:

spiritual directors that can match.

Peter:

And it's good for folks who are in rural areas as well, where there might

Peter:

not be as many spiritual doctors.

Peter:

So finding a a spiritual director and then just meeting with her or

Peter:

him and getting a sense of a feel would this be a good fit or not?

Peter:

I know when my spiritual director retired of about 10 years, I

Peter:

thought, oh, what am I gonna do?

Peter:

I actually went to three different folks before I really had a sense

Peter:

of, this is the person for me.

Peter:

So it's, it's difficult to do, but I think well worth it, well worth it.

Peter:

And people ask me, you know, can you find a spiritual director for me?

Peter:

And I will Give three or four names and say, make sure you talk

Peter:

to this person and this person.

Peter:

And I'll give a little bit of introduction to them, but the first

Peter:

meeting I think is important for that.

Peter:

And then to just ask questions like, what would this be like?

Peter:

I usually meet directees once a month, which feels pretty good.

Peter:

Though I do have some folks who will just kind of wanna meet maybe once in

Peter:

Advent, once in Lent kind of thing.

Peter:

Just to kind of kick that off, I've got a couple other people that I

Peter:

hear from maybe three or four times.

Peter:

A year . And then I won't hear from them for a while, and then a

Peter:

couple years later they'll say, oh, I'd really like to have spiritual.

Peter:

So it really is up to the person I really like that regular

Peter:

once a month kind of thing.

Peter:

So, you know, a person might say, oh, I don't really have a lot to talk about.

Peter:

Not much has happened.

Peter:

And then all of a sudden we're in a direction session like, wow, there's

Peter:

actually a lot happening here.

Peter:

And so I like that regularity.

Peter:

Usually during a session I'll ask a person how they like to begin.

Peter:

Sometimes we'll begin in silence.

Peter:

Sometimes we'll read a psalm or I'll have a prayer kind of thing, and then I'll just

Peter:

ask, so what's, what's on your heart?

Peter:

What's, what's coming up for you?

Peter:

And and then usually , I find oftentimes a lot is said in this first two minutes.

Peter:

And I'll, try and remember especially the, exact words that

Peter:

they used so that I can come back to them and and remind them of that.

Peter:

And and then usually there are stories, there's questions and the, the one thing

Peter:

that a lot of spiritual directors will do in the beginning is , they'll think,

Peter:

oh, I really am here to help people.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

I want to help them.

Peter:

You know, it's like, yeah, of course you want to be helpful.

Peter:

But trying to fix folks or trying to give them advice or answer

Peter:

them is not usually very helpful.

Peter:

Unless it is directly asked.

Peter:

It's like, okay, so what do you think?

Peter:

And then we can go at that.

Peter:

And so what I try and do is do more kind of evocative questions, trying

Peter:

to evoke a deeper sense of, so what's brought you to this place?

Peter:

Where , do you feel a sense of faith, hope and love?

Peter:

Where do you feel a sense of consolation?

Peter:

Where does it feel absent from you?

Peter:

Have you experienced this before?

Peter:

What was that like?

Peter:

So if, you didn't have this burden that you're talking about or, or if

Peter:

you were able to kind of work through this, what would that feel like?

Peter:

What would that be like?

Peter:

So they feel sort of general, questions and then we kind of move towards

Peter:

honing in on what the issue is.

Peter:

The other thing that I found to be really helpful is I'll ask you,

Peter:

so what does that, is it, what does that feel like in your body?

Peter:

Oh, I feel it hard here.

Peter:

Sometimes.

Peter:

People say, my shoulders, I'm just carrying this, you know, or or I've

Peter:

got this kind of monkey mind where it just won't stop, kinda thing, you know?

Peter:

It just keeps going and going, going, so we'll talk about that and,

Peter:

and get a sense of how God might be in that working through helping us.

Peter:

There's always the presupposition that God is there.

Peter:

That God is working with us.

Peter:

God has always been here.

Peter:

And so it really is about seeing and opening our eyes.

Peter:

I love Mary Oliver in one of her poems, she says, I don't really know what prayer

Peter:

is, but I do know how to pay attention.

Peter:

And so, so much of spiritual direction and spirituality is about paying

Peter:

attention to our bodies, to our feelings, our emotions, our thoughts,

Peter:

and having someone to, walk with you as you do that can be, helpful.

Jon:

And I'm guessing this be a question I think people should ask of

Jon:

their potential spiritual directors, are you in direction yourself?

Jon:

Because I'm just thinking about how intense that work can be.

Jon:

And to me, the experience sometimes it feels like, if you think about

Jon:

the story of Jesus and the woman with the hemorrhages, and when she touched

Jon:

his robe, he felt the energy go out.

Jon:

And sometimes I think when you're really in a intense listening,

Jon:

Situation with someone, it's just kind of something is leaving you.

Jon:

I mean, it's just, it's, it takes energy.

Jon:

And so it's, I think, important if you are a spiritual director,

Jon:

that you are in a spiritual direction relationship with someone.

Peter:

That's a very important question to ask a potential director.

Peter:

The other question to ask is, have you done a formation program?

Peter:

And what was the program like?

Peter:

SDI Spiritual Directors International made the decision, and I think it's a

Peter:

good one to not have a certification for spiritual directors because there are

Peter:

so many different ways of doing this.

Peter:

And to try to, define it and confine it didn't feel right.

Peter:

And yet there are suggestions for for, basic training.

Peter:

And , I also am a, faculty member on a training program here in the Twin Cities.

Peter:

And I know that there are some things, some programs that are kind of

Peter:

popping up that are maybe real quick, only, maybe a year kind of thing.

Peter:

So it really should at least be two year training program and then also

Peter:

some follow up with with internships and writing verbatims and, and being

Peter:

in peer supervision group as well.

Peter:

Or or facilitated supervision group initially.

Peter:

I think sometimes there are clergy who maybe have an M.Div.

Peter:

And they'll say, oh, well I can do that.

Peter:

I can sit and listen.

Peter:

It's like, mm.

Peter:

Careful that I do think there's some, there's something really

Peter:

important about being in spiritual direction yourself having had some

Peter:

some background in it, some training.

Peter:

I think there are some people who are naturally very good at this, and I don't

Peter:

mean to say no one can, but I think when you're initially looking for someone,

Peter:

unless you know them really well, And you've got a good sense from them.

Peter:

I would look for that.

Peter:

Again, initially I would look for having a certificate from

Peter:

a, from a training program.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Jon:

Yeah.

Jon:

Makes sense.

Jon:

That makes a lot of sense.

Lauren:

Is there anything else you would like to, share?

Lauren:

Peter, this has been wonderful because I do think that everyone and

Lauren:

anyone can benefit from spiritual, companionship, or direction.

Lauren:

. You have hopefully inspired people to at least think about

Lauren:

it now, who may not have thought

Peter:

about it before.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

Yeah.

Peter:

I think you know, when people are doing spiritual direction a lot of

Peter:

times people say, well, I just don't know what I would talk about at all.

Peter:

And sometimes they'll think, well, I have a regular prayer

Peter:

practice and it's, it's been fine.

Peter:

, . Spiritual directors are not therapists.

Peter:

And if I do work with somebody who I feel is just really stuck or really

Peter:

in need of something deeper that can help them with their problems, I

Peter:

would, and I have referred folks for therapy, but even folks that are in

Peter:

therapy can do spiritual direction as well, which I think is important.

Peter:

And the other thing that I love is when folks come and say, let me

Peter:

tell you all the good things that are happening in my life right now.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

You know, and and what I'm so thankful for or and sometimes people will say,

Peter:

I don't really know what I want, and I don't even know the questions to ask.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

And that's a wonderful place to start.

Peter:

You know, rather than, than having the answers and feeling like, oh,

Peter:

I've got this and this and this, you know, all done kind of thing.

Peter:

And that sense of humility, I find too that talking about different

Peter:

prayer practices can be important,

Peter:

so here's how you, pray with scripture, or here's maybe a prayer

Peter:

at the end of the day that can help you to reflect on your life.

Peter:

Or have you considered doing a weekend retreat?

Peter:

Here are some resources for you.

Peter:

What kind of support do you have?

Peter:

And sometimes we'll talk about relationships and the things that are,

Peter:

are helpful or not helpful in them.

Peter:

So yeah, I don't know what else, what other questions you might

Peter:

have about spiritual direction.

Lauren:

Do you find that sometimes people might come to you with a

Lauren:

with, with something that they think has nothing to do with spirituality

Lauren:

and yet it is a deeply spiritual crisis or concern that's going on?

Peter:

So what would be an example?

Peter:

Lauren, can you think of something?

Lauren:

Well, some, I mean, just somebody who is coming that has

Lauren:

things going on with the family.

Peter:

Yeah.

Peter:

Yeah.

Peter:

You know sometimes when there's Dysfunction or suffering it can

Peter:

happen because the person has been taught something that's just not true.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

You know, for example I have to work really hard in order to earn

Peter:

God's love for God to love me.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

And they might not explicitly say that, but it is a kind of a belief that's

Peter:

been given to them, which is a lie.

Peter:

You know, God loves us unconditionally, which is true.

Peter:

And so being able to kind of unpack that can be helpful.

Peter:

Sometimes people will project a lot of of their own suffering or hurt

Peter:

onto other people because they haven't really worked through it themselves.

Peter:

So a spiritual director can help you name that.

Peter:

It's like, where does that come from and how has that been affecting you?

Peter:

And that can give them some freedom.

Peter:

We can also talk about having boundaries with other people

Peter:

and the importance of that.

Peter:

And you know, what, does a healthy relationship look like?

Peter:

From your point of view and from your partners as well.

Peter:

Naming those can be very freeing for folks.

Peter:

Sometimes we'll talk about shame.

Peter:

And how debilitating that can be and naming , those places of shame can be so

Peter:

helpful in liberating for folks and to have a safe place that is loving where

Peter:

they can feel God's spirit in that.

Peter:

Yeah.

Lauren:

So helping people name what's going on in their life is really

Lauren:

a big part of spiritual direction.

Peter:

I think so.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

Absolutely.

Peter:

Absolutely.

Peter:

It's like, oh, this is what's happening.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

Oh, okay.

Peter:

And oh, I have these resources and oh wait, God has been here with me

Peter:

in this darkness, and I can see now how God has been working with me.

Peter:

Mm-hmm.

Peter:

Getting that perspective.

Peter:

Yeah.

Peter:

Yeah.

Jon:

Yeah.

Jon:

Yeah.

Jon:

Well, Peter, this has been absolutely great.

Jon:

I've, I've loved every minute of it.

Jon:

You've definitely, you've covered such a broad strokes

Jon:

here on on spiritual direction.

Jon:

I think giving our viewers and listeners a lot to think about, we'll certainly

Jon:

put the link to the directory of International Spiritual Director site

Jon:

that you mentioned in the show notes.

Jon:

Would it be okay if we also put your website in, in case people want to get to

Jon:

know you a little better or contact you?

Jon:

Absolutely.

Jon:

Would love that.

Jon:

Yeah.

Jon:

Because I know you I don't know if you still are available for

Jon:

spiritual direction, but I know you do retreats, you do spiritual

Jon:

direction and all kinds of cool stuff.

Jon:

So I, I definitely want to have.

Jon:

People able to reach you.

Peter:

Absolutely.

Peter:

I'd be happy to do that.

Peter:

Of course.

Jon:

Perfect.

Jon:

Perfect.

Jon:

Well, great.

Jon:

Well once again thanks for, thanks again for being here with us today.

Jon:

We, we do appreciate it.

Peter:

I really appreciate being able to to talk with you all

Peter:

about something I really love.

Peter:

So thanks.

Lauren:

It was really good to have you, Peter, and Jon, and I also want to thank

Lauren:

all who are watching and listening today because we cannot do this to spread the

Lauren:

good news without your participation.

Lauren:

Please take a moment to comment, like, and share this good

Lauren:

news with even more people.

Lauren:

Again, thank you for the gift of your time.

Lauren:

Until next time, peace and blessings.

Jon:

Good news is being brought to you by listening for clues.

Jon:

You can find us on our website, listeningforclues.com, our YouTube

Jon:

channel or Vimeo channel, and just about every podcast platform that there is.

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