Many people feel divorce is a death sentence. But with the right support and guidance, you can move through the process with knowledge, skills and confidence. It can also be a time of growth and progress. As a divorce and empowerment coach, I'm an invaluable member of your divorce team. I help you understand and navigate the process, come to terms with your emotions, avoid costly mistakes, learn skills to help you communicate and negotiate, find your true voice and create an empowered life post-divorce. If you're interested in learning more, schedule a free consultation at herempowereddivorce.com.

Beverly Price: Hi everyone. Welcome to the Her Empowered Divorce Podcast. I'm Beverly Price, your host and divorce and empowerment coach. This podcast is made for you. No matter what phase of separation or divorce you're in, whether you're just thinking about it, having separated, are in the midst of the legal and financial negotiations, or are already divorced, this is for you. And boy am I excited today. My guests are TH Irwin and Jessica Klingbaum of exEXPERTS, and I can't wait for you to hear them tell you about exEXPERTS. These two ladies are two best friends who got divorced at the exact same time. How about that? And although they had completely different experiences, they were lucky enough to have each other through it all. They rose from a lack of resource support and information during their separate journeys, and they both had the desire to help others maneuver through the process. And we have that in common. And from that, they created exEXPERTS. Jessica is an Emmy nominated former TV producer for several national news networks. I am so intimidated, Jessica.

Jessica Klingbaum: You don't have to be intimidated.

Beverly Price: And she's an external optimist and someone who always sees the silver lining. So beautiful. And TH Irwin began her career at a boutique market research firm. I started my career in market research too. How about that?

TH Irwin: It helped me a lot in my career.

Beverly Price: Yeah. And she worked for Anderson Consulting, which is a very high stress progress driven organization. And fun role as director of experiential events for USA today. In 2020, they co-founded exEXPERTS and I'll let you tell more about them and that organization. Hi TH and Jessica, thank you so much for being my guest today. It's so good to have you. You both have made such an impact on women. I can't wait to hear from you.

Jessica Klingbaum: Thank you so much. And thank you so much for the opportunity to come on and share our stories.

T.H. Irwin: Yeah, we're really excited to talk.

Beverly Price: Oh, we are too. You are the first time that I've ever had two guests at once, so we're going to take a stab at making sure this works just fine. So either one or both of you, what is exEXPERTS and how does it help women?

T.H. Irwin: So we created exEXPERTS because we found a need for it as we were going through our own divorces. We had one another to lean on the entire time, and our divorces were completely different. And what we ended up realizing is it's less about the business of divorce, even though we certainly helped one another out in terms of things to think about when negotiating, like college and cars and [?] mitzvahs and who's paying for all that stuff. But I think at the beginning we kind of took it for granted that we had each other, we had our weekends covered, holidays covered, New Year's Eve covered with one another. And we had someone who was literally walking in our shoes at the same time, which is, I think very uncommon, especially for close, close friends. So eventually we realized, you know what? We really need to create a platform to help other people so they have a TH and Jessica in their lives. A place to go, someone to rely on a good listener. And that's why we created exEXPERTS, which is essentially a platform of aggregated information. Our values are to empower, support and educate anyone going through divorce. We're not going to tell you who your right lawyer is. We're not going to say you have to use this coach, but we will educate you so you can make the best choices for yourself.

And so that's the purpose of exEXPERTS and our divorce, etc. podcast. We have over 140 exEXPERTS including Beverly, who will soon be on with us. A people who find it essentially important that people know that when you walk into a lawyer's office, you should be asking questions. And this is coming from lawyers. They want to do the best job they can for you and each of the different disciplines that you might hire. When you're thinking about divorce, you're going through it. And by the way, when you're done and you're signed, that's when the real work comes into play. That's when you really need to be educated. So exEXPERTS was created on the premise of supporting one another. You are not alone. You can do things that you think are hard, you're capable of much more than you realize. And that's because Jessica and I had each other and we actually lived it. So we get it.

Beverly Price: Now, Jessica, you've got this online platform, you've got this podcast, but you also have some in-person events too, right? So you cover all the different ways to reach people.

Jessica Klingbaum: We do. I mean, the podcast and the website and our social accounts are really filled with resources for people to, as TH said, become educated on what do you need to know if and when you're going through a divorce, what questions do you need to ask certain experts? What type of experts might be involved in your divorce? How to negotiate certain things, how to navigate the process. We have in-person events. We've done an actual in-person event, but most of them have been virtual. And it's a combination. Some of them are really more of support groups. We call them inner circles because we want to help to be people's inner circle that they can come to a safe space and talk about whatever is the latest going on that week, that day in their process, and be able to help guide them and have support from other people in the group that have also been through the same things. And some of our events have been focused more on doing a deeper dive into a specific topic. So we've had our experts involved and we would have an event where we would sell tickets and it would be online and it would be what type of divorce is right for you or how to budget and pay for your divorce. Correct.  So we're offering our experts in a more personal close-up venue for people to be able to actually engage and ask questions and have access to them during those events.

Beverly Price: Oh, that's beautiful. I just finished a podcast series on divorce experts where I interviewed each one of the specialized divorce professionals. And it was fascinating just to learn what they did and what they have to offer. Well, I'm really intrigued.

Jessica Klingbaum: Exactly, and our part of…

Beverly Price: Go ahead. No, you go ahead.

Jessica Klingbaum: No, I was going to say part of what we say is you don't know what you don't know when it comes to divorce. Particularly if you're going through it for the first time, you just simply don't know. But we do because we've been through it. So that's why we're here to be able to help give that information to everyone.

Beverly Price: Absolutely. And a lot of times what I've found is people turn let's say to their family, to their parents, to their friends to get input. And sometimes someone got divorced so long ago that many of these experts and this information wasn't even available. And so this is a great way to stay up to date on everything that's going on. And also, I think it's educated so that the other thing I've found with some of my clients is their family is incredibly well-intentioned and so are their friends, but they may give inaccurate advice because they don't know the specifics of that situation or the law in that state or whatever it is. So I think what you're doing is, is so impressive.

Jessica Klingbaum: It's funny because even TH and I, so we were two best friends who got divorced at the exact same time. It looked very similar on the outside because we had found out within a week of each other that both of our husbands were having affairs and covering for each other. So on the outside it looked like two divorces that you'd think would be very similar because our husbands were cheating. But we had two totally different divorces. And so to your point, like if we hadn't necessarily gotten divorced at the same time, whoever would've gone first would've been like, oh, I used this lawyer and this is how it went and this is what you should expect. And our divorces could not have been more different. So we always say to people, it doesn't matter if you have a friend or a sibling or your parents or a colleague or an acquaintance. Even if you know people who've been divorced, that's great. And as you said Beverly, they are well intentioned. So it's nice and important to hear people's perspective, but it's most important to keep in mind that your process is going to be unlike anybody else's exactly. And what we're offering people is resources and direction and navigation and how to find out what your process should be so that you don't make decisions based purely on what other people are saying.

T.H. Irwin: I was also going to say that they're not objective points of view either coming from your family and your friends. And so thank you so much. I really appreciate you giving me direction and some input, but don't go by that input and direction. You can listen to it, but then take what you are learning because they've got skin in the game. You want someone who has no skin in your game to be completely objective, realistic, manager your expectations and give you really the straight up story of how to proceed.

Beverly Price: Yeah. And I also think that goes hand in hand with getting recommendations for divorce professionals to work with in terms of recommending for say an attorney because their situation may warrant mediation rather than litigation. Or they may be looking for someone that has specialized experience in domestic violence and the attorney that was recommended didn't. So just like you, I vet and recommend professionals based on very specific experience that would fit that person's need. Now I deal just with women and you guys deal with men and women, but I really believe that it's critical and I provide two to three resources for the client to interview. I believe it's critical that you have absolutely the best team that you can have working on your divorce.

T.H. Irwin: I mean, if you think about it, it's like if you're, if you're sick, I appreciate your input, I'm looking on WebMD, I'm getting information from everybody. You're going to the best doctor for whatever you're sick for. So it's the same thing here. You're going to go to the best lawyer, you're going to go to the right person who's the right fit for your finances and your financial situation and your living situation even for dating and stuff like that. Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate it and then go and do the work. Don't rely on friends and family and their input. Just say, you know what? I could just really use a hug right now and then kind of get them off of the advice dear Abby Trail.

Beverly Price: Yeah, absolutely. So it's fascinating to me that both of your divorces involved infidelity, but it's not too surprising because infidelity is one of the leading causes of divorce. Did you each have a totally different reaction to the infidelity and then moving forward from the infidelity? And could you tell us a little bit about that?

Jessica Klingbaum: I'll start with that. So we definitely had very different reactions. I had met my husband when I was 18 and we split up when I was 36. So we'd been together for half of my life. And he had been having an affair for approximately two to two and a half years when I finally like was hit in the face with the reality that that's what was going on. But we'd been together for half my life and there were a lot of things that still kind of worked in our relationship that we really like, enjoy each other's company. We have the same sense of humor. So obviously that was devastating and humiliating and I was totally pissed. And I wasn't going to stay. I mean, there was no question for me, like I was out. That was it. I wasn't interested in trying to work it out. But I was devastated at the loss of the relationship, my marriage, like what my dreams, what I thought was going to be. We had gotten married very young. There were a lot of things that still fit together. We had a very amicable divorce despite the circumstances and we're very close today. And for me, that's what worked out because there were still things that like we still enjoyed together, we could still hang out together. We are still able to celebrate holidays together. And that was in the long term the vision that I had for me and for my kids because I knew that it was possible. That was not at all TH's experience.

Beverly Price: Okay. TH, tell us more.

T.H. Irwin: So, when Jessica found out, I mean that was when she first started grieving. The other thing that Jessica also struggled with was her identity. It was always Darren and Jessica. Like who is she if she's not with Darren? And so that was another… yeah, definitely for me, the cheating set me free. The cheating isn't what ended my marriage. It's what started the rest of my life. I was really unhappy in my marriage for at least that I remember and I'm aware of now, looking back four years. At least four years. We had terrible communication at best, if you even want to say we communicated because we didn't. And things were just assumed. And I was also married to someone who's legitimately a narcissist. And looking back now I see so much. It was a slow burn and all of that. But the affair was my hallelujah. That was my get out of jail free card. And I was out. I was so grateful that I got the phone call that day and I told her that she saved my life. This is the woman he was with and is still with now today, which is fine. She can have him. I mean I'm good. So, when Jessica and I were supporting each other it's hard to support friends who are going through hard times no matter what it is. And so our advice to people really is, it doesn't matter if you're not matched up exactly with your feelings, but if you can be a good listener for your friends, it doesn't matter if you're not matched up.

I mean, even though we got divorced at the same time, we had very different relationships with our exes. My divorce was four years and in the scheme of things, hers was a hot minute over a dining room table with a bunch of tissues. And we were still able to support one another because people want to be heard. I don't have to agree with her feelings and her perspective, and she surely doesn't have to agree with mine. But knowing that someone is listening to you, you're not crazy and you're not alone, that's ultimately how our different divorces and different marriages and different relationships with our exes still kept us together as friends. It’s really being able to be heard, supported and not judged.

Many people feel divorce is a death sentence, but with the right support and guidance you can move through the process with knowledge, skills and confidence. It can also be a time of growth and progress. As a divorce and empowerment coach for over 25 years, I'm an invaluable member of your divorce team. I help you understand and navigate the process, come to terms with your emotions, avoid costly mistakes, learn skills to help you negotiate, find your true voice and create an empowered life post-divorce. If you are intrigued and want to learn more, schedule a free consultation with me at herempowereddivorce.com. And now let's get back to the show.

Beverly Price: Well, what you went through support some of the statistics that I've heard of about narcissism and being married to a narcissist that the divorce can take on average eight to 10 years because of the nature of your personality disorder and usually be very, very expensive. Yeah.

T.H. Irwin: Yeah, it was all of that. And, and I know that you've also been through… I mean you are quite the champion of your own life despite being knocked down multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple times,

Beverly Price: Oh, come on.

T.H. Irwin: And so we're really proud to be here with you, Beverly. You really are a really exceptional. I was going to say bouncer back, but you're just like you just keep going. You just keep going. And that's really the really amazing.

Beverly Price: I'm the energizer.

T.H. Irwin: But it's not easy. And I don't say casually because it's really not easy.

Beverly Price: Yeah. I think with my multiple divorces as everybody knows, it was really interesting to compare them because some of them were easy, some of them were a relief, but the hardest one was with my kids. Not so much from the logistical legal part, but more the emotional and then how you manage life afterwards. So I can totally agree with you guys then. So if somebody wanted to ask you, I love this absolute question and that is, what are the things you wish you had known about divorce that you know now that you didn't know then?

Jessica Klingbaum: I feel like we grew up in the era of like the war of the Roses and Kramer versus Kramer and that was the vision that I had of like what divorce meant and what it looked like. I don't know that I would've done things really much differently. I feel like the way that I got divorced worked out for me, my personality and how I wanted to kind of live my life. But I wish I knew that going out to get a lawyer is not necessarily the correct first step. And I think that that's everyone's knee jerk reaction is like, I gotta get a lawyer. And I think that what you need to do is you need to figure out what type of divorce is going to work best for you. Are you going to mediate? Are you going to