Friendship or Coaching: Striking the Right Balance

In this episode, the discussion revolves around the complexities and nuances of the coaching relationship, especially concerning the boundary between being a coach and a friend. The conversation touches on how coaches, driven by a desire to please and be liked, might risk crossing into the friend zone, potentially compromising the effectiveness of the coaching process.

Personal anecdotes illustrate situations where too much empathy or niceness failed to contribute to a client's growth, highlighting the importance of tough love, accountability, and direct feedback in coaching.

The hosts argue against coaching friends or family, emphasizing the necessity for a detached professional relationship to maintain the client's growth and transformation. The dialogue also covers the responsibilities of a coach in establishing clear roles and expectations from the outset, ensuring clients are accountable to themselves rather than seeking approval or fear of disappointing their coach.

The episode concludes with a forward look into discussing the business aspects of coaching in future conversations.

00:00 Introduction and the Question of Coaching Friends

01:05 The Dangers of Crossing the Line from Coach to Friend

03:15 Personal Experiences with Coaching and the Need for Tough Love

05:12 The Importance of Client Accountability and Coach's Role

10:41 The Paradox of Coaching and the Goal of Self-Sufficiency

18:09 The Challenges of Coaching Friends and Family

21:53 Conclusion and Preview of Next Episode

John,

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so here's a question for you.

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Should coaches be friends

with their clients?

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Well,

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John: question of tough

love or soft glove.

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We could also ask

whether friends should be

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coaching clients.

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Angie: I guess my answer to that is

that I'd be happy to coach you, John.

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John: Um, thanks, . let's start the show.

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See

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Angie: Okay.

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So in all seriousness,

let's really think about

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this.

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do you think that sometimes coaches

Want so badly for a session to go well

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that they step out of the coaching

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Space and into the

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friend space.

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What are your

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thoughts on that?

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John: Oh, gosh my thoughts are that

coaches are often people pleasers

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is very naturally the way that we

go into things of coaches are people

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who want to work with other people.

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They want to help.

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They want to make a difference and

they want to be liked by their clients.

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And so that I think is the main issue as

far as, as far as I've encountered it.

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And I think that can cause people to

maybe step away from actually having

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the level of detachment that they

need as a coach and just going into

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a session with the wrong energy.

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if your focus is just on it being good.

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You are already putting pressure

on yourself at that point for it

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to be good and therefore there is

already a risk that it's not going

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to be or something is gonna derail

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you.

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Angie: So yeah, and I think that there's

I think that there's two pieces maybe

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more to this but off the top of my head

The first thing that I think of is what

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you just said exactly that we want so

badly for this to work or for there

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to be some value and to be liked and

people pleased that that's one piece.

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But I also feel like, when we're

working with a client for a period

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of time, familiarity steps in, right?

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And that can actually take a, what may

be started out as a super professional

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relationship into, Hey, how are the kids?

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What's going on?

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Oh, so and so didn't

get accepted to college.

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Oh.

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And instead of it being a coaching

session, it becomes One of, I, I don't

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want to say empathy because we should

have empathy, but if the conversation I

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feel like shifts and it's Oh, well, again,

so again I'm actually going on and on,

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We start to

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maybe share too much of

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ourselves.

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John: I get that.

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But I think coaching relationships

can start in the wrong way as well.

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So I think you're absolutely right.

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Let me share with you my very first

experience of hiring a professional coach.

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A really, really lovely lady.

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I'm not going to mention her name.

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I'm not even sure if she's still with us.

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It was a long time ago.

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Hopefully she is, but such a lovely

lady, a very experienced has said she'd

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been coaching for quite a long time

When I encountered her and I was excited

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that actually for the first time in

my life, I was investing in myself, my

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personal development, and I'd hired a

coach and I knew how important that was.

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And the coaching just didn't help me.

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And the problem was she was too nice.

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And for me, that just wasn't working,

I need the tough love, I need a little

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bit of accountability, maybe a lot, and

I need a bit of direct feedback, which

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I just wasn't getting, everything was

super lovely and nice, and, oh well, I

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haven't done my actions like I said I

was gonna do, oh that's no problem, it's

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like, well actually no, it kind of is.

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And so, that's where, that's what

we ended up getting to, of my first

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experience of, Having a professional

coach, I felt did not go that well.

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And so when I look back on it now,

I feel that that was part of it.

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She was being too nice to me.

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She was being too much of a friend

instead of actually being my coach.

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And so now, my coaches tend to be a

lot more direct, maybe a bit, you know,

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they care, but there's tough love and

they're not just telling me what I want

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to hear or letting me off the hook for

stuff that I don't want to be let off the

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hook for.

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Angie: It's so kind of

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like me is what you're

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saying.

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John: Yeah, just, that's, that's

why you make such a good coach.

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And that's one of the, that's one

of the first things that myself

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and I think pretty much all of

us on our team recognized in you.

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It's like, no one's getting

off the hook with you.

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Angie: Yeah.

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And there's even balance there as well.

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But I think that the first piece

that we're pointing to is that

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when you start off a relationship

with a client, there needs to be an

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understanding of who sits in what seat.

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And we're not there to be their friends,

we're not there to, okay, I'm saying

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this, be nice, we can be kind, right, but

we're not there for them to go, oh my

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goodness, she's the nicest person I've

ever met, and I just love, if they love

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me too much from the get go, I literally

question what I'm not doing right in a

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session, and it doesn't really happen

anymore, but I would say the same as you,

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My very first coaching client that was

actually in a one on one, they paid me.

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And I remember my nerves just being

so like, I don't know, amped up.

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It wasn't the first time that

I ever that I coached somebody.

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And when I hung up from that call.

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I remember thinking, ugh,

they liked me too much.

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They were like, oh my goodness,

Angie, you were so amazing.

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And I thought, what did I do wrong?

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And I think I immediately went into the

niceties and tell me about all these other

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things and shared even a little bit about

my life, which I don't think is a coach

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is a bad thing, if it is experiential and

relevant but that's, another piece to it.

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So, I've learned to be more of, I know

what you're gonna say, but more of

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who I really am, which is, you know

what, I can be a little bit tough,

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I don't let people get away with the

things that I know can move them.

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John: Yeah.

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I have a diplomatic approach.

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I mean, we've talked about it.

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We have our different styles, but I feel

that I'm still good at holding people

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accountable because one of the things

I think is most important in coaching

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is holding people's feet to the fire.

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If you're not challenging your

clients, they're not growing.

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And it's about helping them to

challenge themselves as well, for sure.

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But you know, you, you need to be the

person as a coach who is guiding that

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journey and challenging them to step up

and perform, not just saying, Oh, it's

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okay, but you didn't get anything done

that you haven't actually taken any

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action since we started working together.

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That is not, that's not okay.

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Something, something is wrong there.

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And it has to be addressed.

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Now I tend to address that in more

of a, okay, look, this isn't for you

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to beat yourself up about it, but

this is something we should look at.

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Why didn't, why didn't this happen?

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What's what could you

have done differently?

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We're going to pull things apart

and get into that, but I'm not

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going to let you off the hook.

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If you haven't done what you said

you're going to do, I want to know

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and I'm going to ask you to hold

yourself accountable for that.

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Not so that I can fly over because most

of my clients are overseas, not so I can

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fly over to you and actually give, give

you a physical boot up the backside.

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Although sometimes I've wanted to do

that, but so that I can encourage

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you and help you get yourself on

track and just know, all right,

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look, if I didn't do my actions.

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I should still show up to my coaching

call but I know that I'm going to

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have to look into why so that I can

make myself better because of it, not

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so that I can feel bad that I didn't

get done what I'm supposed to do.

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Angie: I think That's important though.

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Yeah.

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You know what though, John?

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Because what I don't like too though,

and this is for me an indicator.

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That maybe there's a little too much

going on there, meaning when a client

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comes to me and it does still happen and

they say, Oh, Angie, you're not going

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to like this, or I didn't want to tell

you, or, and I'm like, wait a second.

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Whoa, whoa, whoa.

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I'm not your mama.

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Right?

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I'm not here to tell you

you're right or you're wrong.

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I'm here to help guide you, right?

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I'm the pace car, right?

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So I'm here to guide you

toward your growth, right?

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I'm not necessarily in front of

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you pulling you.

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Maybe sometimes.

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And maybe sometimes I'm

behind you and I'm pushing.

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And maybe sometimes I'm right

alongside of you and going, okay

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let's take this journey together.

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But when somebody comes to

me and says, Oh, Angie, and

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they're answering me like that.

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I cringe and go, Ooh, what happened that

they feel that level of accountability

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With me.

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That doesn't work.

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That tells me that there's something

in the relationship that I, as the

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coach, need to shift and re examine.

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Now, obviously, if I'm at the end of

that coaching, round of coaching with

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them or something, it might be a little

difficult to reframe, but that is a key

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indicator to me that, some people might

take that as, well, they respect you.

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I have a coach.

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Coach said, I respect, maybe

that means they respect you.

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And I said, well, That's great, but when

they're acting almost like child like,

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right, like, I didn't do good

enough, that tells me, again, I need

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to take a closer look at what the

dynamic of those sessions have been

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so that I can adjust accordingly.

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And I don't even have to say, it's not

like I'm going to say to the client.

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I don't like that you're feeling this

kind of accountability toward me.

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That's not it.

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I take the sessions or I take the

dynamic and I shift it in a way

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so that they're being accountable

to themselves more than me.

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Because when I'm gone when I'm not in

their lives anymore, then what happens?

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That's not good coaching.

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It needs to last beyond our relationship.

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That's what coaching for me is.

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So yeah.

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that's a key indicator for me.

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John: Yeah.

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There, there's a paradox in coaching.

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I feel that that we perhaps should

take an episode to address, but the

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paradox is that at some point your

clients shouldn't need you anymore.

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This isn't I hate to

say this, but I have to.

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It isn't psychotherapy.

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It isn't something that

you should be in forever.

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And even psychotherapy is not

something you should be in forever.

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Because coaching should be solution

focused and it should be helping

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you to get yourself on track.

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A good coach, and this is the paradox,

a good coach should have you feeling,

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I did this, I made this happen, I did

this, not my coach did this, my coach

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made this happen, no, I did this.

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And that's the paradox, it's like, if

a coach has done their job really well,

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the client feels that they did this.

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Hopefully they also recognize

and appreciate my coach supported

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me and helped me make that

happen, but ultimately, I did it.

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Angie: I think it really needs

to fall back onto the individual.

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It's You know, I love my sports

analogies, it's like if I'm the coach

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of a team I'm not getting out there

and teaching them how to swing a bat.

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I'm not swinging the bat for them.

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I might show them, hey, choke up,

do this, use a donut, all the things

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that probably nobody listening knows

what I'm talking about, but but I

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shouldn't be taking the swing for them.

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Right?

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You know, that's, I think, something

that does happen when you cross over from

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that, we're not responsible for them.

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That's another mistake I think

that coaches make, it's that,

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that we feel a responsibility to.

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Yeah.

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Get more out of them, move them forward

fast, like whatever the thoughts are

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in our own head, and I think that's

another mistake that we can make as

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coaches that prevents that growth

because it creates more of like a

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codependent relationship

rather than a growth minded.

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John: Absolutely.

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And that, that can be part of the problem.

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And one of the reasons why I tend to

frame up things with people, if I'm going

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to be working with them for a while or

potentially going to be working with them

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for a while, I want to know in the first

session, how do you like to be coached?

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Do you want lots of encouragement

and supportiveness, or are you

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looking to be challenged here?

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Are you looking to Have a bit of real

talk and get some direct feedback

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that's going to help you to grow.

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That's always going to come from a

place of love and caring but sometimes

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might not be what you want to hear.

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Pretty much every time

they want the latter.

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People do not want coaching

that's just going to tell them

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nice things and support them.

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Sometimes it does happen.

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Sometimes they do.

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That's no fun as a coach, if

you want to do that, great.

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If that's the kind of coaching

you're offering, great.

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But just know that it's not really

challenging people and not holding

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anyone's feet to the fire to do that.

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I just feel that as coaches,

we have a responsibility

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to help our clients to grow, but I

understand that there's a fine line.

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Maybe you'd agree with this, but there's

a fine line between tough love and getting

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a bit mean and personal with your clients.

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But I think people sometimes don't

know how to tread that water.

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Angie: I've had some really

difficult conversations with clients.

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So, and it's not a fault thing.

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It's also getting to know your client

and the person who doesn't show

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up and I've had the conversation.

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I'd say, okay, wait a minute.

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And I'll just use you as the example.

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I might say, John, let me just

take a pause here for a minute.

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I need to ask you a really

clarifying question.

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And before you answer, I want you

to take a minute and just think

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about the answer.

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What

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are you doing here?

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Why are

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you in coaching?

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John: you.

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Angie: I say it just like that.

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So they know that there's

meaning behind it, but I'm not

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guiding them toward an answer.

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I'm not saying, is it this,

is it this, is it this?

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Because if they're not showing up,

if they're not being accountable and

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it's like an ongoing, I have to circle

back and figure out or regage their

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necessity to coaching because they

may not be essentially, they just

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may not be good coaching candidates

and if they come back and they say,

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well, I want all the things that I

already told you, I want betterment.

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My answer is tell me what

that looks like for you.

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When you envision that, what

does that really mean for you?

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Because as your coach, I'm feeling that

we're still talking about the same thing.

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You're going to get the papers decluttered

and whatever it is, because I really

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literally have people who cannot function

because they have 3, 000 magazines

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in their apartment or their flat.

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There are times when as a coach, if you

realize you're making it too easy for them

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because they're not making movement, you

need to maybe have that hard conversation

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that splashes a little cold water.

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We don't want to throw them

into like, you're not doing

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the polar bear plunge, right?

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We don't want that, but splash a little

cold water on them to say, wait a minute.

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What am I doing here?

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And do I still really want this

does this still matter for me?

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John: I like that.

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I like that.

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Yeah.

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I think we, we will have some talks in the

future about how to deliver maybe a bit

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more tough love style coaching, uh, maybe

be a little more provocative with your

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clients in a way that is gonna be healthy

and relationship compatible with them.

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But I would say, if this is something

that's new to you and you're feeling

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that you want to explore that

ask permission from your clients.

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Hey, look, I want to try and

help you more accountable here.

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Maybe get a little more

direct with the feedback.

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Are you okay with that?

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Get permission from them.

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And then you're always good.

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You can have those more authentic

conversations, but if your coaching is

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just nice, I think the worry is that your

clients aren't going to stay with you.

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Well, Guess what?

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They're not going to stay with you

if they're not seeing results either.

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In fact, they're going to feel

like they've wasted their money.

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So, either way, you're on a losing

streak if you don't address this.

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And actually get into a position

where the people who are going

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to succeed are going to succeed,

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and the people who aren't,

they're going to drop away.

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And they should do.

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It doesn't mean you failed as a coach.

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It means they weren't the

right clients for you.

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You're

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Angie: yeah I think that's I've really I

think that's a tough space for a lot of

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coaches to put them into because I believe

that most coaches believe That they can,

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I don't want to say fix, because I don't

fix things, but I think some coaches feel

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like they're going to fix, or they can

help change anybody, and that's not true.

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That's a fallacy.

315

And the other thing is too we talked

about it for a second earlier.

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Do we ever bring ourselves

into a coaching session?

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And I do feel like the minute somebody

breaks the ice on that, sometimes it

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gets to be easier and easier and easier.

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So I did do it once.

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I had a, I did have a client who came

to the session, probably shouldn't

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have, they had just lost a parent

and I had just lost a parent.

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so when they were a mess in the session, I

really felt I needed to meet them in that

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moment and not go, well, all right we're

going to push through this and we're just

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going to coach on your business today.

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That wouldn't have been fair.

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And I did share I really understand.

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I just lost my mom.

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I understand how you're feeling,

but I made sure that when we came

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into that next session, it was how

are you, are you feeling well?

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And it was back to business.

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John: Yeah.

332

There, there is this temptation always

that, that, that's part of empathizing.

333

If you've had similar experiences

to tell them about yours.

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I don't, that, that's always helpful.

335

If your experiences is an example

of what not to do or what to do.

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Then maybe you can bring that in

but I think right it's dangerous.

337

You need to have a somewhat distance

position to be able to be truly effective

338

as a coach, which I think is one of the

reasons why, when someone is your client

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actively your client You can't really be

friends with them because you don't have

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a level of detachment if that's the case.

341

Which also answers the question of Should

you coach your friends or your family?

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and I have done it.

343

I have one time done it well, but it

was only with a friend who begged me

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to coach her and totally respected me

as a coach and someone who was able

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to make that distinction between me

as their friend and me as their coach.

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I think that's the only way I wouldn't

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recommend it.

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It's still much better.

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My problem with it was I already

have ideas and images about you in

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my head that may not be fair to you.

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Uh, so I don't necessarily see your

fullest potential without baggage.

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I, I have baggage with you good and bad,

and that's not helping you as a coach.

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So I would definitely not

recommend working with somebody

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who is a friend or family member

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because

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of those reasons.

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Angie: Absolutely.

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I think if we asked 25 other people,

we'd get variations of the answer.

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I don't think it's a great idea.

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I don't think it's horrible to go

in and maybe workshop and, because

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depending on how your business is built

for that one on one coaching, that

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responsibility, I think it's virtually

impossible to forget what you know.

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About each other and I think it gets

harder to hold them accountable There's

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a lot of things that come into play

and I really believe that make the

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referral I'm not the person for you, but

I definitely have somebody that would

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be a great match for you in terms of

coaching I don't need to be your coach

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John: Yeah.

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Angie: Maybe one or two generations I have

coached for children of friends, okay?

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And I don't mean children

that ten, I mean, children in

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their twenties, late teens.

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And that has been fine, right?

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But I have made sure that everybody

understands, mom and dad that hired me

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I'm not coming to you with information.

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And I also make sure that that

client that, that child of the friend

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understands that anything that they tell

me beyond, the same rules for anybody.

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If I think you're gonna hurt

yourself, I'm making a phone call.

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Do you know what I mean?

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But that's the norm.

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Making sure they understand

that whatever goes on between us

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in our sessions is between us.

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Period.

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That I'm not running back.

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And I'm establishing that trust.

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But honestly, even that at first

was a little bit Wonky, but I think

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one or two degrees away from, or

generations away from, a friend

386

is not necessarily a bad idea.

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John: So there can be exceptions

to every rule of course.

388

But we say, as we are saying, I

think you both agree generally, for

389

the most part it is not a good idea

to coach people that you know well.

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I feel that we've probably

answered that question.

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Is there anything else that

you want to say on this topic?

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Angie: No, I think we hit the

two biggest pieces, is when you

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have a client for a long time.

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I'm not allowing that familiarity to

take precedence over the work being done.

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We should be working just as hard in the

25th session, I hope that happens for

396

you by the way as we did in the first,

second, and third where we're really

397

starting to get to know them and to date.

398

That shouldn't change.

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John: It may be a good idea to check

in with clients who you've been working

400

with for a long time and see how

that relationship is right now.

401

Is it in a healthy place where they're

still being challenged and still

402

getting value from the coaching?

403

It is a danger in long term

coaching relationships.

404

I've experienced it and had

it with my own clients as well.

405

It's all about boundaries.

406

Next time we're going to be talking about

some of the business side of coaching,

407

which is going to be fun and exciting.

408

Are you looking forward to that, Angie?

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Angie: course I am.

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John: Excellent.

411

Well, I hope you'll join us too for that.

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we'll be back next week.

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Same time, same place.

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Angie: bye.

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bye.