David Cowen is a connector. For 20 years, he's connected major players across the legal industry. He is also the founder of SOLID. In today's episode of CLOC Talk, Jenn, and David discuss imposter syndrome and how you can stay inspired and curious in today's legal ops ecosystem.

Check out SOLID here: https://www.solid.legal/

Jenn 0:02

Welcome to the corporate legal ops consortium podcast where we dive deep into conversations with technology and legal ops thought leaders from across the ecosystem. This is clock talk. I'm your host Jen McCarran. I'm on the board of directors o'clock and I leave the Netflix legal Operations and Technology team. On today's episode, I'm joined by David Cowen, exec coach and president of the Cowan group and executive search firm facilitator of some of the legal industry's foremost conversations, that his breakfasts and dinners taking place around the country, several of which I've attended. And David's the founder of solid the summit on legal innovation and disruption. Solid gathers a few 100 legal disruptors twice a year in New York City and San Francisco, and features of fresh Ted and Table Talk format. I've also attended solid, told some stories and made connections there for life. I asked David on the show, because a few months ago, I saw his LinkedIn posts about a session he held at the international legal tech association or ilta annual conference. His session was about imposter syndrome. And he said the room was standing room only. I'm obsessed with our obsession with imposter syndrome. Really, I'm curious about what caused this imposter syndrome endemic? It's all we talk about, and how do we get out of it? I have a hypothesis on why everyone seems to be suffering from impostor syndrome. And I think we all don't spend enough time exploring the interior. Look at social media or on the go lifestyles, busy families and to do lists. Everything digital and virtual, it actually drives people further into loneliness. And it's really hard to be alone with yourself. You'll hear David's theories on impostor syndrome in this combo as well. David and I took this opportunity to catch up on all things like why he started solid. Our thoughts on the metaverse morning routines, our very first kinetic conversation in the halls of clock and cultivating that inner voice of confidence that can dispel all impostor syndrome. What a great combo. I hope you learned as much as I did. David, you and I met can I tell the story. In the hallway is that clock in 20. I want to say a late teen 17 I want to say 717. I had to be 17. And I came out of some session. And you came at us this session and there was steam coming off both of us. I think at corporate legal ops consortiums big annual conference, the conference happens in the hallways, you smash into people with energy, something you heard, you have new data, you want to do something more. And you and I just smashed into each other. And you were like, Oh, Hi, I'm David. And I want to do something more. I'm thinking about this thing. And I'm like, I'm Jen. I'm finding this conference really good in some pockets. But it's missing something electric, where we go and talk about the innovation and story tell the thing and like I don't know, a bigger, more organic way yours. Do you remember this combo? We were smashing into each other like two atoms?

David 3:24

Well, I had been thinking about what you were saying for a year. And what came out of that was solid, which was Ted Talk Table Talk townhall, which is what I wanted from CLOC. So I'm in this room, and I'm listening to these speakers. And I'm like, I want to go out and tackle them and go like, wait, I want more. And have I wanna have a conversation with you about what you just said, and where are we and where are we going? And so you and I crashed into each other and you felt that way. And I felt that way. Salah was born and I still think clock is and then I think besides solid, I have to say, because how could you not decide? So I think CLOC is hands down the best conference. Yeah, history. Here's what's great about it. I think the sessions are really truly educational. You're really hearing from the best and the brightest about what's now what's next and what they're doing. And then you have the hallway conversations. And then you have the prescribed networking events, but it's the right people. And now you've got three generations.

Jenn 4:14

I think it's really the only conference that has the top, the middle and the bottom. And I wrote this blog, which was I went to clock first time we came back from COVID From pandemic in the lockdown. It's like, I look to the right, and I look to the left and I'm like, I don't know anybody here. More than half that room was new. Yeah. And that's what was encouraging. That's so true. Three generations are in that room. When we met it felt like two generations and I felt like the younger one yes. And I was under studying all the founders and I learned so much from them. The conference was amazing. But you and I were looking for a different kind of electricity. You came out of there and you said to me in that hallway I'm starting this thing solid summit on legal ops innovation disruption, summit on legal innovation and disruption. Yeah, summit on legal innovation disruption. You're like I'm gonna start this thing. that plays off of storytelling TED Talk and more of a two way combo. There's the amazing stage moment. And then there's the table moment. And we're gonna do it are you in? And I'm like, Yeah, this is a nice 92nd combo. I'm like I'm in. You call me a few months later. And you're like, I'm at the drawing board now. And you were in go mode, you were smashing people together on calls. I'm at Spotify at this point, you smashed me on a call with Jeff Marple. I don't even know what I said. But you were like, I have the hair here. And it's you and Jeff marble. Jeff is at Liberty Mutual doing legal innovation, then, and he's now over at kpl Kiesel Propulsion Labs adjusts in practice, my favorite tech partner in the rush furnace, crushing it, and he's, he's the East Coast vibe. And we didn't know each other. And Jeff, and I start with just workshopping ideas on a call of a story of innovation. And we came up with this seven minute format, which you invented, and you want the greatest set of someone put a time constraint on them and go, you got to tell the whole story in seven minutes. And Jeff and I worked on that for several months in person and virtually writing this story. We came to solid in September, it must have been September 17. And told a story of what I did something I built in the first four months of Spotify and Meath writing that story with Jeff who's a great story brain guy, he really helped me process what the heck just happened at Spotify in my first four months, came out on stage with him, you gave me the stage. We told it. And it was just another moment in time for me career thinking that is a story of innovation. I had no idea what I was doing. So I said, I'm going to do an MVP, Spotify and everyone clapped. And it worked when I went live on day one. And that all went down.

David 6:57

Well, everybody loved you. And it was great. And it's a great exercise. When I invite speakers to speak, they wonder how they're gonna get to it. And so the first dry run is always 20 minutes. And they're like, how do we get this to seven, I said, if you can get this to seven for me, you can get this to seven for your executive leadership, you can get to five for them, when you manage up, they really only want five minutes. Nobody wants more than that above you a level or two above you. So this is such a great exercise and career building, as I suspect it was for you because you had your elevator pitch ready to go at any time. Whenever anybody asks you, they need all the detail, they can ask for the follow up

Jenn 7:32

what a great training that is for us. And I learned now when I go into a presentation where I am now at Netflix, I'll bring in a 10 minute version, if they give me 15 minutes. As a slot. I write to 12. I rehearse and write to 12. And I stop at 12 No later, they're loving it and impressed. But then things go awry with execs or meetings or big meetings. I come in with an eight minute version of five minute come in with the one I come in with a if I have 30 seconds in one slide. What am I going to tee up to come back to you and talk about later. And the solid format is part of the formula that like you have to take your story and make it malleable to different ears, levels, people and timeframes.

David 8:21

So can I do a coaching moment here, like if you're listening to this podcast, the people, I mean, you just heard a marvelous coaching moment of like, how to manage up or how to work a meeting, how to walk into a room since the room and go Is it a one minute pitch or five minute pitch or a 10 minute pitch and I only need one slide. If you can't talk to that one slide for five minutes, then you really haven't done your homework. You don't need all the backup. If somebody wants it, it's there. You don't need the backup, you don't need it for that beginning. And if you want to keep the attention, let everybody else give their opinion on the one slide and the picture or diagram or whatever it is data that you're gonna put up there. In a meeting, meetings are scheduled for 60 minutes. But meetings are not 60 minutes, they're 40 minutes. Or maybe they're 50 There's five minutes of intro and getting into your seat. Then there's five minutes of setup that leaves you 50 This five minutes at the end where you're gone. So that's 45 and then five minutes, somebody's gonna hijack something. So a meeting that's an hour is really only 40 minutes. Are you ready? And how many people are in that meeting, because that's how many minutes you're gonna get. So if you're not prepared and a 10 person meeting, I got three minutes to make my point unless you're running the meeting, and then you should be distributing those minutes. So you have to divide the minutes by the number of people in the room so that you hear the voices or you're just in an echo chamber. That's my coaching moment for

Jenn 9:42

free coaching moments on clock talk today.

David 9:45

Can we play revolution for 400? Can I have revolution 400 and save with the daily devil?

Jenn 9:49

Yes. Turn to square around what do we got?

David 9:52

What's the revolution in the market right now? What are the drivers of change?

Jenn 9:56

Are we talking whole market or our legal ecosystem market?

David 9:59

I'm always Thinking about careers like where are you going? What's next the demand and flow of talent and whatever's on your business card today, what will be on your business card in five years and your career is a jungle gym? And not a lot of so where are you going? So there's a revolution happening. There's a lot of variables, this drivers of change, there's velocity of change volume of change variety, spin the wheel and pick anything you want the variable of the driver of change that is most exciting to you right now,

there is a industry wide, across in house companies, fortune 500, startups, everyone is waking up to the fact that there's a better way to run a legal department. There's like a mass awakening happening. And we're seeing more and more roles popping up over these last two, three years, and corners of the world and one person legal departments going, I'm starting with this. So they want to do better. They want innovation, that's what innovation means. I think that's revolutionary is so small. And that's how revolutions start. And we see three generations o'clock. And there are not enough of us to fill the open roles. When I do market snapshots, there's lists of roles, we're all getting called for all the same roles, we have our pets, so to speak. And that's really exciting. Now, when you go inside and start doing the work, revolution is bloody, because we have this velocity, and this conversational velocity, and all this kinetic energy happening as a community at all these wonderful conferences, clock solid legal operators, ilta has one ACC and can SAROS, then we get inside. And they're still legal professionals and lawyers who are doing the work, and sometimes don't have the understanding of what we do the bandwidth to understand or follow along. And we still have to start at the beginning and go very slow, and it's bloody.

So what do I want to say that what I want to say is if you're the beginning of the beginning, if you're the beginning to the middle, where you're doing the work, and you're not really sure, like what happens next, don't wait for what happens next. No, be assertive, be proactive. I mean, how many books a year do you read,

I don't even count because I don't follow metrics like that. I mean, I read to last week. So whatever that mathematically comes out to be.

So if you're not reading six books a year, if you're not reading at least six books a year, you're just not in the game, because you're not speaking the language, that your senior level executives are speaking, because anybody who's in a senior position is reading six to 10, to 12, to 20 books a year, which seems inconceivable. But if you're starting out your career, you're in the middle of your career, and you're looking to accelerated pick up books that interest you on business, do not watch CNN do not watch Fox like enough of the CNN Fox time, corporate news

has little to offer to keep us sharp as these knowledge worker extraordinaire, as I have to stay on the forefront of change that I mean, that's also the revolution is that tech doesn't stop getting better and expanding. And now there's a startup that does this or that. And you're the one in your legal team expected to know how to translate what that can do to your general counsel, their leaders or their legal professional staff. Correct. You have to know everything I do is translation and books. And going deep with these experts, these authors give you language and empathy around all of that.

It's the language as much as anything else. But it's the way they think. And the way they think is those are your clients, the law departments and your client. Marketing is your client. Or it is your client or something. There's somebody else within that organization. r&d is your client. The business units are your clients, the organization is your client, what's going on in the business, what's going on in the business world, if you can elevate just a little bit like that and understand it, put yourself in their shoes, stream Bloomberg for five minutes or 10 minutes a day, instead of CNN and Fox. Forget what's going on in Washington, what's going on in China with chips. That's interesting with what's happening in the business world is gonna do you a lot more good. I think when you sit at that table in the law department.

I agree. I completely agree you and I've been vibing on books. At every dinner. Every lunch we've had. The book always comes up. The book came up with you the other day you are reading the metaverse.

I'm reading the metaverse by Matthew bull, whichever we recommend to everybody and anybody who wants to know like, what is this thing? Here is the primer for it. And that will set you often anyone a variety of paths. The other book that I love right now is Adam pecks book, think again, where he challenges your assumptions. Like if you were thinking like this, like let's think a little bit different.

Is it Adam Grant? Sorry, Adam, Adam Grant, think again. Adam grants writings are really interesting because he is an organizational psych expert at a UPenn by cuts into behavioral economics. what makes people tick is fascinating is CO written a book or two with Sheryl Sandberg. His quotes on LinkedIn are You're really just spot on. Think again is another one. So I started the metaverse just to be able to chapter one with you. What is the metaverse? Can you give me the chapter one highlights the David Cowen edition.

So the metaverse is essentially the virtual. It's web 3.0, or the virtual world. So there's the physical world that we're having right now. And then there's the virtual world. And really everything that's happening in the physical world happens in the virtual world. And if you're listening to this podcast, what you need to recognize is like, doesn't matter that you're never going to use it. What's important for you to recognize is you're probably a legal professional at some level, and your clients can use it. If you're with Miller. Beer, they're going to have a party that

probably already have because Heineken has a tasting. In decentraland. I've been to the Heineken plant named dropper, yes, their businesses are there, which will draw contracts there, which will draw events and legal ops and tech people are putting the tech and process beneath all the things of accompanies contracts and events and or litigation.

So here's this virtual event that's taking place, but there's going to be liability, and there's going to be privacy. Yes. And so we're gonna have some training. Also, there's going to be HR training. And if you do HR training in the metaverse in the virtual world, and somebody gets hurt during that training, or gets dizzy, or is somehow impacted, do you have OSHA? Do you have labor and employment? What are the issues? We don't know what they are? So here's the good news. What's happening is that there's two worlds that are going to happen. The prediction is, is that it's going to be a five to $7 trillion economy. You can buy Nikes in the metaverse for your avatar, you can buy Gucci sneakers and Gucci purses for your avatar. Travis Scott concert, you can go to the Travis Scott concert Taylor Swift's gonna play in the metaverse. Oh, so who doesn't want to be there? So imagine that you can go to this concert.

Dre and I were in the metaverse at my concert. We stood next to each other we dance this is the future of production is someone with me? My avatar and we had our own dance party.

And what happens if somebody crashes that gets in between you two? We had

a few crashers at the concert we put on but they were friendly Crashers.

And so now you're going to need legal counsel, which is the point that I want to make is that there are these two worlds one is embryonic if you will, and coming up but you're going

imagine ediscovery for that moment where someone crashes my dance party in the metaverse and punches my avatar in the face. What does ediscovery look like there? Can we get a recording of the video and from what vantage point multiple

vantage point? My Vantage, your vantage, and there were witnesses, we are headed for a cartoon ified future who invented discovery cracker was that J leap? Oh, I don't know. So it's discovered cracker all over again. Like we didn't have the tools. I mean, History doesn't repeat. But it rhymes. Yeah. So this is E discovery. 1998 1000 2002. We were

in all of that like that you were online deepened career when the eDiscovery arc took off from went from zero to 100.

I started the callin group in 2004. Place, Brian Stemple is sort of the first placement at Kirkland Ellis. And it just took off from there. And I really got to know the leaders in the space because there was no space. And so I got to place them in those phenomenal positions of growth and expansion where they built teams underneath. And the same thing is going to happen again in this space, as the demand for talent exceeds the supply, which is why I'm so encouraging. And you're so encouraging, read and be curious. You don't have to know the answers to anything, which is imposter syndrome, 101

impostor syndrome, one on one. And to keep answering your question you first asked me, you saw the eDiscovery hype curve go and you were surfing that with Cowan group and the work you've done. We're in the contract management hype curve now. Yes, and it's on a rise and it's turning. And that's what most I would guess 70% of us in these roles are working through now. contract process solutions. It worked. It didn't. What about that? What about machine learning? What about how do you really transform how this high volume legal work product gets done? And how do you incentivize people to change how it gets done at scale? To drive a business faster? It's one of the greatest business problems we're facing. It's so high volume. I'm very pumped right now.

I don't know what that technology will be or the workflow or the process or the tipping point will but there will be one thing that will happen. What's an example of that in the legal space? I mean, people say all the time, lawyers don't change. law changes so slowly, but I simply referenced the iPad and the iPhone. They changed one day there was nobody with a smartphone. They all had blackberries. There was nobody with a smartphone was nobody with an iPad and the next day every IT department in the amla 200 was instructed to figure out The security for the iPhone and iPads. And within two years, it revolutionized what and how people worked inside a law firm. That will happen again now, with something that's going to be next it's going to bundle it together and make it more productive. Because it's not enough people

will say, I will say I am of two mines have Contract Lifecycle Management Solutions. I don't know about the bundled solution that can quote, I'm air quoting, do it all whole lifecycle. I am Orville Redenbacher, wring it where I believe tech products can do one thing really well, why don't we let them do their one thing really well, and not try to bolt on 79 Other things, because it's harder to get things to move that way and get your product to be really adding value. So I've had a big career pivot in this respect that I'm solving more like this, like, how do we think about clauses? How do we think about repositories? I've blown it up into pieces, and all the CLM providers right now are like, Oh, damn, like, what do we do? How do we sell it? I don't even know what to say. But my point is, I think it's going to fragment and then go with maybe through a big acquisition cycle. And you saw all of this with the discovery, it's still happening, big ediscovery acquisitions going on. I've watched the labels change on products these last few years, cool. And fragmenting and the startups that do it better than the legacy products come through. And then your bigger ediscovery players, they want them because that's a nice newer UI, and then they become part of a large product suite. But stand alone. It's fascinating. And somebody gets it right.

Somebody gets it right. I don't know who that will be necessarily. But I will say this, and I've said this for a long time you show me an organization, it's simultaneously investing in people and process and technology. I'll show you somebody who's going to come out the other side successfully. They might not be the leaders, but the service providers are doing exactly that. They're investing simultaneously. And they are developing talent. They've got developmental programs, and they're hiring right out of law school today, in ways they weren't before. And so I think it's an incredibly vibrant marketplace that was siloed. Before is dramatically less siloed today, which is good news, I think for all of us, especially the client,

it's great news. It's wonderful news. Switching gears, David, the reason why I asked you on this clock talk podcast was of course to catch up because we've known each other for years, and I fell off with you a little bit when I started at Netflix. I was actually in my first year at Netflix, on my way to one of your dinners in downtown LA. I was here a few months moved from New York, I was so tired. In my first year at Netflix, it was a big adjustment, LA, New Job fast moving legal department hyper growing. I took one look at the freeway. And I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna have to tell David, I can't make it because that would have been a 45 minute drive to go three miles or something very short. Welcome to LA and I feel like I went to bed for three years working at Netflix, earning my stripes here getting re energized. Here I am. It's for almost five years later. We're catching up as old friends. So nice to see you again. And you did a presentation recently at Ulta. And I read about it online. You were posting about it. Others. The comments were on fire, you did a presentation on impostor syndrome. And I heard it was standing room only and high engagement. And when I saw that, I said I got to hear David Collins thoughts on this. And you and I need to kick the can what is going on with impostor syndrome? Why is it all that we're talking about in these corporate circles in our roles? It's dominating the podcast airwaves. So when was this elder presentation, there was less was last year. Tell me about what you went in hoping to achieve? And what happened?

Joy Heath, Rose said, Hey, would you do a session on this? There's a lot going on with imposter syndrome. And I'd mentioned that a few other places. And I said, Absolutely. And I worked with Melanie Prevost, on putting together a program on this and simply stated that the beginning of the session I said raise your hand, if you've ever experienced or you're currently how many people are in the room 120 50. That's a simple random sample if I ever heard of one and how many raise your hand 90%. Okay. And I'm like, Okay, I know the microphones going all around this room now. So I've got a good room and they simply say, if you have impostor syndrome, that's really good news. laggards don't have impostor syndrome. They're hanging out, you know reruns of cartoons. So if you've got impostor syndrome, you're striving and you're in space you haven't been in before. So simply, impostor syndrome is just you just don't know the answer to something yet, but you will. And then you won't feel like an imposter. You just feel like an imposter when you're in space that makes you feel uncomfortable. You're like, Wait, what am I doing here with all of these other people you've earned that somebody said, you might not have said it, but somebody that I recognize something in you, Jennifer McCarran, that's special. And so we're going to promote you into this role that's a little bit above your head, but you're going to reach up and strive into, you're going to reach up into and then you're like because of your nature, you do expand into the role and say, Okay, I got this now. And then what happens is they promote you again, and you're like, Oh, how did I get this responsibility?

So when you say sorry, about his way, yeah. What's your story, isn't it? Yeah. And then usually the first set of feelings I have once that those moments happen as I go into the room, look in the mirror and go, Oh, my God, what have I done? I'm a fraud. I can't do that. I fooled them again. And they're going to find out. That's my definition of the symptoms of imposter syndrome.

So I'll give you my imposter story. I started a dinner series in a breakfast series and sort of this networking business, which is an offshoot of a staffing company, remember, I did my first breakfast in New York, in DC and Chicago, LA and San Francisco and the people that were in that room, way smarter than I was more than I am. I mean, the people that I work with, they were in rooms with really smart people, I'd walk into a room with 10 people, I was fine. But all of a sudden, the rooms got to be 20 and 30 and 40 people, I'm like, What am I doing here? Who am I to run this room of 50 people and I would literally go into the bathroom for every breakfast, look in the mirror and say, just give them the best experience that they can possibly have. And it'll all be okay. Don't worry about it. They know the answer. But I went into the bathroom. I mean, for the first year me for 20 breakfast for an entire year, I'd go into the bathroom, I had the start of a breakfast, and go like, it's all going to be fine. Just trust your talent. But you'd first

look in the mirror and go, Oh God, what have I done? What am I going to do? Am I going to choke? Well, I didn't know if I was going to throw up in the bathroom. Right? Right. And then there's this moment, what you and I just described as a similar bathroom mirror moment. And then there's a moment where something clicks, and then some higher voice comes in and the higher self and goes, you're just going to A B C, that's it. You're just here to be of service to foster conversation, provide a great meal a great setting smart people. When I first met you, I was like this guy is the talk show host extraordinary knew how to just keep that combo ball moving, no dull moments at your breakfast or your dinners, I've been involved. So two

lessons that I've learned that may be helpful to others. One, I had a plan for the first couple of breakfasts like this is how it was gonna be, it was gonna work just like this. And the room didn't want to go that way. The room had another idea of what they wanted to talk about. And I remember learning how to horseback ride when I was seven. And I remember the instructor saying give the horse his head. Don't try to fight the horse, the horse knows where it wants to go. And I'm like, I just gave the room, its space. And the moment I got out of the way. So if you're running a meeting, sometimes you need to get out of the way, and let people go where they want to go.

To play off the horse example something I hear a lot and we talk about a lot my wife and I always she's always saying this to me, in terms of being a leader or a manager, I am the neck, my role is the neck that turns the head. It's very similar. It's not the head, even though from all external points of view, you might think I'm just the head and I'm some Brainiac walking around, in with my team at Netflix or at Spotify. But no, I'm a facilitator of something and trying to get them to think it up in them to run with it and them to execute it. And it's similar with running a dinner. If you go in with a rigid agenda, and I'm the head and they balk and you can't flex, you're dead in the water. You froze. Dinner's not fun, it's not engaging. You're not having another one. People don't give you their time.

That dinner is for the dinner participants if you're a good host, it's all about your guests. If you're a service, it's all about those that you're serving. If you're a servant, leader, it's all about

servant leadership. This is my value of the year I can't stop ruminating on it's how do I be of service in these situations? And look, you're gonna freeze. There are moments where you're like, my plan just got trampled. What do you do? I mean, what I've seen you do it your dinners. As you just ask questions. All you do is ask questions. You ask a question and you point at someone and go, What do you think you're seeing this in your law firm? And then go Jen, what do you think and you stitch people into the combo and you make sure it's always moving? It's always moving.

I'm genuinely curious, like, what are you thinking? And then the benefit to me is at the end of 20 of those, I have 20 points of view. And now I have my own like I walked in with none but 20 dinners later or 10 dinners or five conversations I'm like well here's what I think. And I think it because I know what several other people there in the trenches said about it so I don't have to make things up. I can just go with Jen McCarran thinks this and so to 25 other people that I really know and respect and I I'm good with that I'm good with that point of view.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai