Jack Hopkins (aka Jack Hoppy) is a bartender, filmmaker, and musician from Columbus, Ohio. We talk about growing up small and non-athletic in the suburbs, learning about life from movies, getting love-bombed by a Christian youth group, successfully avoiding sex for most of high school, a mushroom trip that spiraled into months of nihilism and two suicide attempts, and the offhand comment from a stranger at 3 a.m. in a New York City pizza shop that pulled him out of it. Also: ketamine and a box of childhood action figures, why Columbus isn’t real, and why humping the Empire State Building is not okay.

Content warning: This episode includes extensive talk about sex and drugs, and quite a bit of swearing, so probably don't listen with your kids.

You can and should watch Jack's films, listen to his music, and look at some of his art here: https://linktr.ee/Jackhoppy

Please show some support for the podcast and get access to some extra content by subscribing to the Patreon page: http://www.patreon.com/onefjef

Instagram: @onefjefpod

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/onefjefpod

TikTok: @onefjefpodcast

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@onefjef

Email: onefjefpod@gmail.com

You can also call the podcast and leave a voicemail at 1-669-241-5882 and I will probably play it on the air.

Thank you for listening, please do it again, but don't scare the kids.

Onefjef is produced, edited & hosted by Jef Taylor.

I'm so sick of the, what we're doing here in, I mean, I, I'm enjoying speaking.

Wow.

But I don't want to hear He literally dismisses the podcast as he speaks on one.

So we've entered the, yeah.

Uh, somebody that would like this shit.

This is episode 41 of onefjef 41 is the number just past the

ordeal across mystical traditions.

40 is the sacred threshold, the flood, the desert, the fast,

which makes 41 the first breath.

On the other side, the I Ching's 41st Hexagram sun captures this perfectly

voluntary sacrifice, giving something up as an act of trust rather than loss.

In Pythagorean terms, the four and the one are intention structure versus

the solitary will the person who has built something solid but hasn't yet

made peace with being alone inside it.

Hello my friends.

Hello, once again.

How about this?

We're back on our regular schedule.

Huh?

Huh?

Anybody?

I'm proud of myself.

I hope that you're proud of me too.

I said once I am in Mexico City and settle down a bit, we will get back to

a regular schedule for this podcast.

And here we are.

So go me, go me and is also promised I am releasing an interview

this week and that interview.

Is with Jack Hopkins.

Jack Hopkins, also known as Jack Hoppy, is a filmmaker, writer,

musician, and visual artist.

He co-wrote and acted in the short film according to plan and

releases self-produced music, including squalor and couch surfing.

His visual art and broader work reflected DIY self-direct approach focused on

experimentation and personal expression.

I recorded this conversation almost a year ago before I even

started making this podcast.

I used a few clips of it in the first episode, but I didn't release the entire

thing because as you'll hear, Jack and I got progressively more intoxicated as

the interview progressed and we ended up recording for almost three hours,

much of which was fairly incoherent.

But I live in Mexico City now, and last week I went back and

listened to what we'd recorded.

And I discovered that it was actually more entertaining and less incoherent

than I remembered, and I cut it down to an hour, which helped.

I do need to include a disclaimer though.

If this episode had a rating, it would be a solid R.

There's quite a bit of swearing and talk about drugs and

sex and so forth and so on.

So probably don't listen with your kids or with yourself if you don't like

listening to abject subject matter.

Mom, you've been warned.

I met Jack Hopkins a few years ago outside the Summit Music Hall in Columbus, Ohio.

The film group that we were both in was having a gathering, but there was a band

playing so nobody could talk inside.

So people just started going outside.

I was just standing outside and they having a drink and, uh, this young

interesting looking dude walks out of the bar and we just start talking.

And yeah, there was just like a, an immediate connection with me and Jack.

It's like we knew each other before.

It's like we were just picking up a conversation.

We'd started long ago and we've been friends ever since.

Jack's about half my age.

He's about 26 right now.

I think.

And he invited me to a party at his house, I don't know, six, seven months ago.

And, uh, a lot of people at the party thought that I was Jack's dad,

which I wasn't necessarily offended by, but I was also offended by

anyway, now that I am in Mexico, I miss my friend Jack.

I hope he comes to visit.

And I hope you enjoy listening to this conversation with him as much

as we clearly enjoyed having it.

Thank you for listening.

Thank you for being here.

Here's Jack Hopkins criticizing the sturdiness of the table I had in my

podcasting studio in Columbus, Ohio.

Dude, this table is fucking wobbly.

It's not that bad.

Okay, well we've got a guest and we're already complaining about the table.

Interesting.

Sorry.

Yeah, it's a beautiful table.

So here we are, um, Jack, Jack Hopkins.

They call me Hoppy.

Actually Hoppy You don't call me Hoppy, but my friends call me Hoppy.

No, I refuse to call you.

Hoppy.

You, you don't have to.

Sorry.

Yeah.

Um, how long have people been calling you?

Hoppy?

That's like four years.

No, I didn't grow up with it.

Um, Jack Hoppy.

I don't know.

Does your girlfriend call you Hoppy?

No, she doesn't.

That's good.

She did originally.

And I actually had to say, please don't that you can't, you can't have that.

I don't like that.

Yeah, no, it's not sexy.

And then when she refers to me to other people, she's like,

yeah, Hoppy's over there.

I'm like, what are you, what are you doing, man?

I don't like, you got any nicknames?

Yeah.

No, it's me.

Uh, Tweety?

No.

A big dick master.

Huge dick.

Big giant dick on the street.

I've heard that.

Yeah.

They're like, where's Big Dick at?

I'm like, oh, Jef.

He's over there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, no.

No real nicknames to speak of.

No, I remember having girlfriends back in the day and like one girlfriend,

Laura, she wanted to like come up with nicknames for each other, and

the one she came up for me was Bunny.

And I was like, no, absolutely not.

Similar to Hoppy.

Yeah, no, bunny is a little too cute.

Yeah, yeah.

No kidding.

So we never came up with nicknames and then she cheated on me.

Hey.

Oh God.

So that's a, yeah.

Maybe if we came up with cheat, maybe we came up with nicknames, then maybe

she wouldn't have cheated on me.

If it was a good nickname, it would've been a green flag.

Yeah.

Although I don't know that they're being like Spike.

Spike.

I don't think I'm gonna be spike either.

Or danger.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Something like that.

So like growing up, what was, what was your, what was your life like?

Tell me, like high school, what was your, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

So I mean like, I liked sports.

I've always liked sports, but the second that a grown man started to get mad at me.

7-year-old for not doing it right.

I immediately was like, no, I don't wanna do this anymore.

Old people ruined sports.

I mean, why did they care that much?

Just let them play, just let them living vicariously through a 7-year-old.

And at the time I thought it was weird and now I'm looking back on it and I

still, I'm like, yeah, I was right.

I was fucking right.

It, it's worse now than it was then.

Probably.

It was weird.

What sport was this?

I tried 'em all.

I tried 'em all.

I liked baseball the most.

Um, 'cause I have hand-eye coordination.

I'm not athletic.

I like to separate the two.

I don't wanna run for longer than, you know, a couple minutes of

time unless you're being chased.

Right?

Yeah.

I don't want to do that either, right?

No, but I just, you know, I wasn't athletic and everybody else was athletic.

It's Dublin, Ohio.

It is a fucking green suburb.

When I talk about it like this, I feel like a, yeah, the, the angsty, you know,

like, I gotta get out of this town, man.

They don't believe in me.

You got outta that is how I, you got outta Dublin.

That's how I felt though.

And I remember my big brother was, um.

You know, he was athletic effortlessly and he wouldn't study and he

would get fucked up all the time.

Mm-hmm.

And just get straight A's 36 on the a CT, whatever, doesn't care.

I'll study and I'll study and I'll study and I'll still get a c

plus, you know, even if I studied all night, it doesn't matter.

No retention, I don't matter.

Yeah.

80 a DDI don't know.

And I would double guess myself, so I didn't, you know, grades would fail.

I wasn't very good at sports.

Um, I was tiny.

I was tiny in a huge school.

I was still like the third smallest kid in the class for a while there.

I'm still small, but now I can blend in with a crowd a little more.

I don't stand out or anything like that.

Were you good at sports?

No.

Oh no.

I wasn't like, I liked them, but I just, I got nervous.

I got really fucking nervous, you know?

Hmm.

But then I grew to a certain age where I was like, I don't have

grades, I don't have sports.

I'm tiny.

I'm angsty.

What do I do?

How do, how do you get respect fast?

I was like, well, I'm just gonna openly do drugs, you know?

I'm gonna be like the stoner kid.

Gotta find your identity.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I watched Dazed to Confuse when I was a freshman the summer before going

into freshman year, and I was like.

When I, when I meet stoners at my school, I'm kind of like, I want them to like me.

I'm like, okay, let's just do that.

Let's just put it all on the table.

Like Slater from Yeah, but a little, they, they were more menacing.

I was more Slater esque, the stoners at my school, you

know, there's kinda like tough.

Yeah.

Like they wanted to fight each other at like, it's interesting that

you mentioned Dazed and Confused.

'cause I feel like when I was in high school and junior high, I feel like I

got a lot of my ideas about my identity from movies as opposed to like from a,

uh, parental figure or an older adult.

And I still think that that actually affects the way that I see the world

in a way is like watching too many movies when I was a kid and you're

preaching to the choir, right?

I mean, whatever I thought was like a cool guy.

I would try to be, okay, these guys in these movies get laid.

I'm gonna try to act like that.

Right.

Just if that's real life.

Right.

And yeah, no, it never worked.

Right?

Then you get older and you realize, what is that?

Are those movies not true That's going on?

Right?

Right.

And you realize that it's all bullshit and you're like, yeah.

Um, yeah, and I was really pissed about that.

I was insecure as fuck, man.

Oh, me too.

Acne is acne everywhere.

Yeah, me too.

Uh, braces.

I actually had braces from freshman year till senior year.

Me too.

Not that period of time, but yeah.

Three years, two years.

Yeah.

I remember they wanted to keep it ongoing into college and

I fucking orthodontist, man.

They wanna ring you dry.

It was the fucking worst student.

Uh, and once I caught on.

And they were like, yeah, you're still off by a couple millimeters.

Um, we recommend keeping it on.

And I was 18 at the time.

I was like, take 'em off.

Well, that's the game, right?

I'm like, I know you can, I know that I can say this now.

You, you gotta take 'em off my face now.

And they like looked at my mom and my mom was just shrugged.

She's like, yeah, you heard the band.

I was such a nerd in middle school that like the nerdy kid.

This kid Owen Priest never forget.

He slammed my head into a locker.

Wow.

Like the nerdiest kid be above me, fucking hurt me.

Well, nerdier became weird because he was both, he was like the other outcast.

He was like, as a weird kid, will slam anyone, was like two outcasts, you know?

But a nerd vying for power or something Fucking awful.

Only one of us.

Yeah.

One weird middle school was the worst.

That's when kids learn how to be assholes.

Yeah.

I I was bulleted in middle school.

That was the toughest one.

Yeah.

It was awful.

High school was fine.

High school got better for sure.

I, I had fun in high school, to be completely honest with you.

Yeah.

But middle school, yeah.

No, I had a lot of trouble.

What did you do in high school?

Sports still, or No?

No, no.

That was when I went full stoner mode.

Uh, freshman year was funny.

Um, this transitionary period where I, it didn't, I didn't

know and I didn't really care.

What was it?

It was Young Life, which is Oh, I know what that is.

Yeah.

It's a youth group going on and, um, really prevalent at my school specifically

with the seniors, with that class.

Um, and you know, these seniors come to the freshmen and they're like,

Hey, you wanna hang out after school?

Like on a weekend night?

Love, love, love bomb, love bomb.

You can, you know, ride in my car.

I was like, this is like days confused, which, right.

The exact opposite.

So, you know, we go to this basement, which sounds weird, but there were

like, you know, 50 people in the basement, but they're Christians.

We were just dancing around.

It was a lot of fun.

Yeah.

You know, no drinking.

Um, I, I was, I don't know, I was naive.

I was like, didn't, didn't catch on to maybe that they were tell Right.

I kind of knew.

That they were, I knew that it was Christian based, but then you're

dancing and dancing and dancing.

At the end of the end they're like, all right now.

Now we pray.

Right.

Okay.

Okay.

Gotta go.

But they did get me and I felt kind of cool for hanging out.

That's how they get you.

They love bomb you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh man.

It was weird.

They would take, I actually went to, um, young Life Camp.

Mm-hmm.

You know, it's like three days in the woods in Saranac, New York.

Your parents probably liked it.

They're not Christian.

They were just kind of like, okay, sure.

You're hanging out with good, good, wholesome people.

Good wholesome.

Ah.

They always trusted me.

I think they were just kind of confused.

They're like, okay, sure.

Yeah.

If you're finding God that's not sure, go for it.

Sure.

Um, no, I just wanted to go 'cause everyone I knew was all

the freshmen got kind of roped in.

Mm. Um, and my girlfriend at the time.

Was going and everything.

And I was like, all right.

Fuck it.

I was an atheist at the time.

Mm-hmm.

Um, my friends knew, my girlfriend knew, and it's, I'm agnostic now.

I don't really give a fuck.

Sure.

But at the time I was, you know, pseudo intellectual.

I was like, there's no God like I knew.

And, um, but I would ke I would keep it se a secret from the

actual young life, like seniors.

Sure.

'cause they're not gonna let you in if you don't.

Yeah.

At least pretend.

Well, they did find out when I was there.

And they made it a, how did they find out?

Oh, people told them.

I don't know where it's at.

Oh, you spoke a lot about how you didn't believe in God.

To my friends.

And my friends, I'm sure told 'em this whole God thing's

bullshit, by the way, you guys.

That's right.

And they, they had these weird games, competition, secret competitions.

Right.

I could see that.

To see who can convert the stoner kid.

Oh my God.

And they would take me deep in the woods one at a time.

And to, to Eno.

You know, hammock.

And they would give their, this is my personal Bible, I wanna give it to you.

Sure.

Like if they could come outta that woods with that win.

They would get so many brownie points with, with, with good old jc,

um, if only they just had a naked woman that you could fuck out there.

They'd be like, that's how you get 'em in.

Yeah.

Right, right.

But that's premarital.

Right.

But you just don't have to talk about it.

You're right.

Yeah.

Well, if it, yeah, it would be the priest diddling me, actually.

You know, that's how that, you know what Mormons do?

Mormons can't have sex when they get married, so they'll

do a thing, I forget the name.

Soaking.

Soaking, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's fucking crazy.

Where they just put their dick near the vagina, have somebody No, they put it in.

Yeah.

I couldn't figure it out where they actually put it in.

'cause it said there's not penetration.

Oh.

Like when I looked it up online, it said there wasn't penetration.

So it seemed like maybe there's rubbing, I don't know.

It could be either way.

But then you have a friend involved under the bed.

Maybe it's the, the thrust that maybe it's just the tip is the, if you thrust,

then it's considered penetration, maybe.

Yeah.

I mean, what a weird religion that is.

But, um, just the tip.

Yeah.

'cause the, the Mormon God is so dumb that it can't tell the difference

between soaking and actual sex Mormonism.

Mr. Fuck.

That is disrespectful to the Mormon, God.

The Mormon underwear.

You're good.

What's his name?

John Smith.

And they're from Lake Ohio too.

They came, they, they were up in Ohio until they, they, when

they were, it was under the big thing was near northern Ohio.

Northwestern Ohio.

Northeastern Ohio.

Mm-hmm.

I forget the city.

But they were living there.

Then they got kicked out there and they kept moving and then they finally

got to Utah and they were like, all right, where we're gonna settle?

Well, they're gonna let us have all our wives here and shit.

Yeah.

Our 20 wives, I mean, the wives thing probably worked out for the fellas.

Definitely For the women, not so much.

They think it worked out for them though.

They're, you know.

Yeah, I know.

Got, they get brainwashed like hard, like all the fucking way.

So, uh, stoner crowd in How old were you when you got laid for the first time?

I was 21.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I had plenty of opportunities.

Um, I'm sure you did.

I was just fucker.

Yeah, that's, look at this face.

Come on.

Yeah.

I could, I could have fucked as many tricks as I wanted.

No, no.

I was in bed and I would be naked and I was, I would just

lie because I was just so scared.

Oh, it's terrified.

Or I'd had my underwear on and they'd be, be like, what?

I would just come up with something every time.

Wow.

The first, like, this happened like five times, you know, or like, yeah.

You know, um, you know, I'd be like, oh, my, my best friend

is actually in love with you.

I can't go through the, with this.

Or, oh, I. I'm, so, I remember in high school I actually said, I'm

just too, I'm just so tortured.

I'm too tortured.

Wow.

Yeah.

And she, it didn't make any sense to me or her.

She was like, right.

Okay.

But it worked.

You didn't get laid

score right?

I did it.

Yeah.

That's the movie you should write.

That's the movie you should write.

Trying not to get laid.

Trying not to get laid.

That's actually what, that's a title right there.

It was really fucking hard.

Trying not to get laid, man.

God damn.

Yeah.

What a nightmare for you.

I, yeah.

Sorry you had to go through that.

No, my first experience, I, yeah, I just lied.

I was like, oh yeah, I fucked.

What were you concerned about?

Uh, not being good at it, I think was the big one.

Yeah.

Or like, not either, you know, coming too fast or, or not even being hard at all.

Definitely.

Um, which was the case when I first got laid, I'll be honest with you.

Huh.

And then I was so pissed at myself.

I was like, you horny little bastard.

You're finally doing it.

You can't even get hard.

So then you, you graduate high school incredibly and incredibly.

What's your relationship with your, what's your relationship with your parents?

Like?

Me and my mom have always been very close.

Mm. My dad and I, you know, we're, we're buddies, fathers, and sons is tricky.

Yeah.

We're buddies, you know, he's pretty much like, I don't know,

he reminds me of Adam Sandler.

Like, he's just like, you know, he can't be serious.

It's very, very difficult for him to be serious.

Right.

So, you know, when Yeah.

When you can't ever be serious, you can't ever be vulnerable.

And so when you can't ever be vulnerable, you can't ever form

that strong a relationship.

So I do dig.

You know, I poke and prod at him when you know, sometimes and be

like, what happened here when I, you know, talk, trying to figure

out what was happening to his child.

He had a crazy fucking childhood man.

Vulnerability is tough for Midwesterners and particularly like older.

He's from Jersey.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, they're usually blunt.

They usually are pretty frank.

Well, that's the stereotype.

Yeah.

But he is all about like good vibe.

Like he, you know, he's a Jimmy Buffet guy.

Like, you know, he grew up on the beach.

Um, so like, he literally listens to Jimmy Buffet.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he How do you feel?

You like Jimmy Buffet?

I do because of him.

Which one?

Which songs?

Um, we like, uh, trying to Reason with Hurricane Season, I didn't that one.

Like, things like that.

Everything rhymes in the Jimmy Buffet song's Gotta rhyme.

Yeah, I do.

I don't, I don't like, I don't like the hits.

I don't like changes in attitude.

Changes in latitudes.

Yeah.

So, you know a couple.

Okay.

I know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's fun.

It's, it's dumb.

No, but the, the instruments in Jimmy Buffet Margaritaville's a great song.

It is.

I can't hear it anymore though.

Growing up with it.

You know, some people say that there's a woman to blame, but they're right.

It's all their fault.

Wait, but there's a very, that's a lie.

As the story goes on, he pr he, he, uh, uh, progresses as a human.

At the end he says, it's actually my fault.

Yeah.

See, Jimmy, oh, didn't, I never thought about, I never looked into it.

Pay attention to these.

Well, it's a deep, beautiful, deep Jimmy Buffett league.

Right.

I went to the last Jimmy Buffett show in Cincinnati, and that is

where it's the biggest fan base.

That's where they coin the term parrothead.

No shit.

Yeah.

Bigger than Key West.

I wonder why that is.

It's 'cause nobody wants to be in ci.

Nobody wants to be, you know, when you're in Ohio, you listen to,

wants to be in a lot of places.

But, yeah.

Well, since you know, when you're in Ohio, you, you.

It's about island escapism.

It's not about Right.

You know, you're daydreaming, you know?

Yeah.

Columbus has sports though, so that's how they, that's their, Jimmy

Buffett is, Columbus has got sports.

Yeah.

I'm not gonna miss that, to be honest with you.

No's favorite thing about the city is this, uh, cult of sports.

It's most people's favorite.

It's most people's favorite.

I'm a fucking, we're a couple of snobs and, you know, I, I,

you know, more power to him.

I was at a, um, I was watching the, the championship game with my cousin.

My cousin loves sports and we were watching the, the

Ohio State Championship game.

It was with him and his kids, but there was some friend of his that I'd never

met, and he was really, he was that guy who was really into Ohio State,

and I'm just kind of watching it.

Do you like to say, let's go a lot.

Let's go.

I don't know if he said that, but So we're watching it.

I'm kind of like.

I'm watching a sporting event as I watch sporting events.

I don't really like, I enjoy watching sports sometimes, but it's

like, I don't take it seriously.

I want an entertaining game.

If I'm gonna watch it, I want an exciting back and forth or whatever.

Right.

And so this game start, the game starts a lot of pausing and Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The game starts getting close and I'm like, oh, at least it's exciting.

And this guy's have, he's like, we don't want it to be

close, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And at the, yeah, like he was getting mad.

He was getting, he, he, if that, if they'd lost, he may have like

killed himself or started crying.

Mm-hmm.

And I think he did cry actually when they won.

Okay, so college, I can understand you're representing your school, but

to NFLI will never understand that.

That's just companies buying people.

It's what do we, well, it's just professional sports.

You're not any different than baseball or basketball.

It's the same fucking thing.

Yeah, no, you're allegiance to a company basically.

'cause they're trading you based on stats and Sure.

It's all arbitrary.

You know who root for Yeah.

I'm not arguing that.

Although as a clevelander like growing up watching the Cleveland Browns, I,

I do have a, an affinity for them.

I if, if anything I, I would root for the Cleveland Browns just for underdog's sake.

Yeah.

That's, you know, that's what being from a Cleveland is all about.

Yeah.

And that I can get behind.

Yeah, they did well, you know, a few years back and Yeah, I'll watch it.

I was actually excited.

Watch, if they do well, I, if they do well, I'll start watching towards the end.

That's who, that's the, that's the kind of sports fan I am.

Is if the team's doing well at the end of the season bandwagon, then I pay.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, like the Indians last year, the guardians were there.

Yeah.

Well it, it also takes a lot of homework and like daily homework.

I, I call homework 'cause I don't give a fuck.

Don't do any, I don't do any homework.

No, no.

I just mean like, people that are into sports, you know, you the

way to, for people to connect, especially in my family for sure.

Um, that they bring on the names and the stats and, and oh yeah,

that, but you, you gotta, you gotta keep up with that shit constantly.

He just listening to the sports radio all the time.

I think it was Noam Chomsky who said like, if he was listening, he was like

driving somewhere and he was listening to random radio stations and he got on

one of these sports radio stations and he is listening to these people, like

analyze sports to this insane degree.

And he's like.

If people analyze the way the world and the government works on the level that

they analyze sports every day mm-hmm.

Then we'd actually have in a different civilization right now.

Yeah.

Politics has turned into sports teams, you know, it's turned into reality tv.

Yeah.

Well, sports, it's like you, it's like they see it as my team versus your team.

No.

Shades of gray, red versus blue.

Yeah.

And then they treat, um, they treat sports like politics.

You know, they're, they see the complexities of it all and, um, yeah.

It's productive in a certain way.

You know, you can talk to someone without killing them.

Politics the first, if you start talking politics with someone that

has a little bit of a, a deviated opinion from what you believe.

Mm-hmm.

It's war.

It depends on the person until you both decide at a certain point,

let's stop talking about this because you're not gonna win anyone over

unless they're a true on the fencer.

Which is really unfortunate because that's not the way that it's meant to be.

Like we're meant to be able to have opinions.

Course that would change based on new information.

Yeah.

And it's unfortunate everybody's so locked into their mm-hmm.

Like that's the problem with the world right now.

Aside from, you know, everything.

Yeah.

Many problems with the world, but that's a big one.

Just that we can't even, we're, we're so closed off to any other belief

that we can't even see each other.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

How old were you when Trump first got elected?

Well, gimme the year.

Uh, it was 2016.

2016. I was 17.

Wow.

That's crazy to think that like.

When I was growing up, when I was your age, I like politics

was, I think it was George Bush.

And certainly there was rage at politics and so forth, but it wasn't

like this horrible behemoth that was anyway, slowly enveloping and, and,

and the 24 hour news hadn't happened yet, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

But now you've basically grown up under like, well, I guess Obama.

Obama was quote unquote good.

And then you had, you've got Trump for 12 years.

Ain't nobody was good.

Ain't nobody, that's Jimmy Carter dramatically correct.

Jimmy.

Jimmy Carter was one.

Jimmy Carter was actually a good, good president and a good

man after he was president.

After he was president, he was a peanut farmer from Georgia.

After he was president, he spent the rest of his life like working for

Habitat for Humanity and building houses.

He'd be out there 80 years old.

Fucking nah.

We can find dirt.

We could find some dirt, no doubt.

Oh, I'm sure there's dirt somewhere.

I'm not talking about a little.

Obama's got a Netflix deal for Christ's sake.

No, no, no, no, no.

I'm not talking about a little bit of dirt.

I'm talking about that dude.

Definitely funded genocides like everybody else.

I'm saying relatively, yeah.

Compared, and I think he think was comparison to, I mean, for

the last 40 years, 50 years of his life, he literally gave it giving

back to the like he was publicly.

Publicly.

Sure, I'll take it.

Yeah.

No better than Obama.

Right now he's just working for Netflix.

I can't ever give props to a politician, especially the big man.

That's fair.

Yeah, it just doesn't feel right.

There's stuff we just don't know and we never will, and it's just like how

many fucking innocent people does?

He are dead because of him.

Yeah, because of every president.

It happens.

So how'd you start the film stuff?

Do you remember the first film you ever watched?

No, no, I remember What's an early film that you saw that was like,

like a lot of, a lot of animation.

A lot of animation.

There's this movie called The Rescuer Down Under, which is, um,

you know, mice, it's, it's like mice.

It's an underrated, underappreciated m Yes.

Incredibly underrated dude.

When you talk about classic Disney animated movies, ain't

nobody ever gonna mention this movie in 1 million fucking years.

No, you're right, you're right.

Um, and then I think first grade, I, I had this, my best friend,

Cameron, I would go to his house and I would use his family video camera.

We would make, I was addicted to it so much that he got.

He just hated me.

He was like, you just want the camera?

I'm like, yeah, maybe I like YouTube though.

And then I forgot about it for a bit, you know, I still loved movies always,

but I was a writer, you know, I wanted to write books and short stories.

So I did.

And then seventh grade I was 12, 11, or 12.

Um, biography week or month, you know, you pick a biography.

Okay.

You read it, you do report on it.

Mm-hmm.

It was between Bob Marley and, um, yeah, I love Bob Marley and, uh, Spielberg.

I picked Spielberg 'cause that was what was available and I was

like, I said it out loud too.

I was like, this is what I want to do.

And it has not.

No doubt.

There's no, there was no doubt in my mind like, this is exactly what I want

to do, and I just has not changed.

So, did you like Spielberg at the time?

Oh yeah.

What's your, what's your, what's your favorite?

Spielberg.

I had an ET poster.

I had ael.

That was, I was a big fan of ET that was growing up.

ET now had a soundtrack on 45.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It changes for me.

Loved Temple of Doom.

Um, as ridiculous as it is, just like, not, not Raiders.

Not Raiders to the law story.

No, no, no.

I was a fucking kid, man.

I wanted like balls to a wall, Andy.

Yeah.

I wanted the most outrageous.

Yeah.

His movies are outrageous.

The Gremlins.

There's some good ones in there.

Yeah.

The Gremlins is under, there's some bad ones, but there's some good ones, Jay.

Mm-hmm.

He, I miss it 'cause he, nah, he's a master.

Yeah.

But nowadays he, I haven't even touched his historical objects.

I mean, jaws on its own is just an incredible Oh yeah, yeah.

Oh, uh, that's number one.

Okay.

That is the number one.

I said that in the theater like three, four years ago.

And it was an ama, like, there's so many things about the movie that are so smart.

Yeah.

So fucking good.

The thing he figured out was like, I'll have the camera on a character

and something's happening off screen.

They'll, they'll hear a sound and they'll look.

And he doesn't show you what they're looking at for a few seconds.

Does he pan over after Right.

Or whatever he cuts to it or whatever.

But he just builds the tension by just showing the person reacting to the thing

that you don't even know what it is yet.

Right.

Yeah.

Um, I'm actually doing that in the short film that I'm, that exact thing in the

short film that we're doing right now.

That by this point, once this is released, it'll be in Tribeca

and be made into a feature film.

I believe that's true.

I'll be, I'll have the funding by then.

Yeah.

There'll be a $10 million, uh, a 24 I believe.

Yeah.

Um, we're gonna get, um, Daniel Day out of retirement for sure.

You should, yeah.

Yeah.

To play a, a 21-year-old.

Yeah.

Did you see my left foot?

Yeah.

I should.

It doesn't really work with the microphones.

Shouldn't laugh.

Yeah.

Just to describe what Jef is doing here.

He, he did a, a crude imitation of a disabled man.

No, it was, it literally the guy in my left foot.

It's Daniel Day Lewis playing.

Oh, I, I got some fucked up.

Uh, Laura on my left foot.

Mm. You know how it ends on like a very sweet note, like, oh, he found a woman

that loves him and like there's some hope.

Oh yeah.

Vaguely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She abused the fuck out of him whole life.

Oh, the real, my left foot guy.

Whole life.

Yes.

Ow.

She abused the hell out of him.

Well, it might've even led to his death.

Let's make point.

Make the sequel.

Let's make the sequel.

What do Oh yeah, just my left foot part two.

The darker years.

My right foot.

Right, right.

Yeah.

He starts feeling his right foot.

Because she, yeah, she, she beat him.

Definitely.

I wonder if Steven Hawkings, like, doesn't he, wasn't he married or something?

Deon or his wife?

Fucking like, I don't know.

I've seen the family guy clip where they're, they're both disabled and

having like wheelchair sex in bed and she's like typing in hormones.

I don't, I don't know.

Funny.

That's funny.

As far as I know about his.

Pretty funny.

That's pretty funny though.

Funny.

I know.

He had a girl when he didn't have the disability, right?

We all saw the movie.

I didn't.

Oh yeah.

I just know about it.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

You're just, you're just a fan of.

Stephen Hawking.

Yeah.

And yeah, just know the Stephen Hawking lore.

Yeah.

I tried reading some of his books just to like, feel smart.

I read the one, it didn't make me feel smart.

It was just more confusing.

I love the first like, quarter of that like Carl Young type book.

'cause it's, it's one that you're like, oh my God, I'm

understanding what they're saying.

And then they're like, there's a drop off point where they're like,

okay, now that we've explained all of the, uh, like beginner, like dumb

ass shit, let's just start talking.

You just, let's get in.

Yeah.

And then I'm like, oh, I have no idea what they're saying now.

Right.

This, my brain just, I think like some physicists and stuff, I think

their brain just works differently.

But like, I, I want to understand that, like, oh yeah, of course.

How you can explain the universe with math.

Mm-hmm.

Like what, what's that?

How do you, you like, you can explain how the universe acts.

Why gravity?

Because of an equation.

I don't get that at all.

So like, our brains like.

And my theory is that our brains, like intentionally, like we were, we were

wired to, for our brains to intentionally like short circuit when we start to

conceptualize how large the universe might be because it just wouldn't work.

It's not that we can't do it, it's that it's not healthy for us.

But not everybody's does though.

Like there's clearly people who are able to comprehend

this level of They bypassed it.

Yeah.

And they're fucked.

You think that?

Yeah.

They have, they have a lack of empathy to a certain degree.

They've transcended a certain part of the human condition, but maybe they

know something that we don't like.

Yeah.

That's what I'm saying.

Right.

But I think I would rather stay in my lane and keep my empathy than understand

like, you know, big picture people.

You gotta think about the big picture, you know, think about the species.

Nah, I ain't about that.

I'm talking about I'm, I'm thinking about individuals and that's about it.

Sure.

I mean, we're all inherently, you know, egocentric, um.

But I mean, it's true.

How can you, you can't, you can't avoid it.

Yeah, I know, but like, uh, I, I was reading some book that was talking

about what, what would really happen, like they are working on like drugs

that will extend our lives, right?

So this guy was kind of positing like, what would happen if

they invented this drug?

Well, first off, like the rich people would get it first, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

This would be a drug that would any, everybody would want it

probably be gate kept for like, oh, there would years hundred riots.

Shit.

Yeah.

There'd be riots, shit.

And they wouldn't, they would keep it a secret.

Right.

But then the ramifications of having a, of being able to live, let's say,

I mean even 300 years, whatever, like you would get number one bored and you

would be so afraid of like airplanes.

Nobody would fly on a plane.

Nobody would take any risk.

Because to take a risk would me to, the only way you can die is by having

your body get fucking destroyed.

Right, right.

So you would be so risk averse.

Skydiving would be over.

It's true.

And then anyway, yeah, it seemed very, it was.

And it would, and if you were the only one that was living a long

time and all you did was just live and every, all your friends.

Died.

I don't know.

Well, that's the vampire movie effect, right?

Right.

There's yeah.

It's like, or the va vampire story where it suicide.

All the vampires are all heartbroken because they've

seen everyone they love die.

Right.

Which is actually why the vampire story is so good, because it's, yeah, absolutely.

It's heartbreaking.

What was that?

Was Jim Jarmus one with, what's her name?

Did Jim Jarmus make a van movie?

Yeah, he did.

In Detroit?

Yeah.

It was very Twilight.

Yeah.

That's the one.

No, it was, um, the, um, the Mice movie.

It was the mice.

I was gonna, I was trying to think of the title.

Rescuers from Down Under.

Yeah, it was that one.

Yeah.

I don't dunno.

I don't know.

Didn't come up with a Fast Time Mice.

What are you saying?

Wasn't there wasn't that movie with Mice the rescues down on?

Wasn't that with M Yeah, but What, no, I was just trying to make a

joke, but it's gone So off the Rails.

'cause just 'cause I couldn't remember the name of the movie.

I caught it.

I thought if I couldn't remember the name of the movie right away,

it would've been a good joke.

Jim made a fucking vampire movie.

Uh, only Lovers Left Alive.

That was what it was called.

That's a cool name.

Yeah, it's a good movie.

You'd like it.

It says Toda Swindon, isn't it?

It's our, oh, she's great.

She's the best.

And she looks like a vampire too, so Yeah, she's a little, a little fog.

Um, yeah, I don't know.

I, I, I have mixed feelings about whether I find her attractive or not really.

Yeah.

I, I, I, yeah, I don't, I think she's homely.

Interesting.

I could see that you.

I, okay.

Um, I, I saw her in, um, she's, what was that movie?

The Kevin?

Yeah.

We need to talk about Kevin.

Dude, that movie.

Yeah.

Anyway, we don't need to get into a movie Jack off thing, but, uh, why not?

That's our main expertise.

We just talked about politics for Longs.

True.

It's true.

You're right.

Well, that's the thing that I worked in for five years, so I mean, I do.

Meanwhile, I'm just blab, I'm just yapping.

If we just stop talking, then people will stop.

People have already tuned out.

I, I think that's not very optimistic.

Hey mom.

Oh man.

I'm so sick of the, what we're doing here in a, I mean, I, I'm enjoying speaking.

Wow.

But I don't want to hear He literally dismisses the podcast as he speaks on one.

So entered the Yeah.

Uh, some, somebody that would like this shit I was thinking of

calling it Columbus isn't real.

What the name, the name of the podcast.

Columbus isn't real.

Columbus isn't real.

Yeah.

I mean, people.

I don't like Columbus.

Here we go.

Okay.

I don't uhoh.

I don't like Columbus.

What don't you like about Columbus?

It's a fucking corporate hub.

Um, where's better than Columbus then?

Chicago is a better place.

New York is a better place.

Cincinnati's a better place.

I'm with you.

Like, I I don't love Columbus either.

And, and I, I, I'm interested in leaving, but like, I do think that after

living in a lot of different cities, like all these cities are corporate.

It's not like, if, if like, the thing with Columbus to me is

like, no, it's not very culture.

There's a cult of, of football.

There we go.

It's flat everywhere.

That's what I was about to say.

Um, yeah.

Any culture that we do have or did have gets ripped away in place.

I mean, there's some culture here, don't get me wrong.

Like, there's some, I'm not gonna give it.

I mean, every, I'm not gonna shit and shit, shit in Columbus.

I mean, every city as big as ours has, like their thing.

You know, Columbus lacks an identity, a distinct identity,

except for the football thing.

That's the thing.

I think that when they tore down my favorite bar, uh, the

stub, I like just lost all hope.

For this place.

'cause that really was, yeah, I don't know.

Stronghold.

It was a safe haven.

It was a fucking institution and it's, uh, they tore it down for

expensive, high rises apartments that are gonna be fucking empty.

I think there's good things about this place.

I'm just, when I was in Mexico, I realized it's gonna sound, maybe in

a year when I'm listening to this, I'll be like, oh, what an idiot.

But that I don't, that I feel better when I'm in a city.

Like a foreigner in a city like I'm feeling.

Yes.

I started to sell all my stuff.

Like when I got back from Mexico, I was like, I'm starting

to sell my records and shit.

Just getting rid of stuff because like, I'm also like all this shit.

You have a bigger house, you end up accumulating all this fucking

shit that just holds you down, holds your life down, like.

I just, um, I mean if you downsizing, if you plan on moving, then yeah.

It doesn't, even if I plan on moving, like I don't like feeling like I'm stuck

and having all this stuff makes me feel like, oh, it's so hard to go anywhere.

Sounds like fight club.

Yeah.

You're trying, you're going minerals.

Fair enough.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You do have some cool trinkets going on or I don't know, like

if I get a remote job somewhere.

I'm just going to start traveling.

Yeah.

Well, it's, I mean, if you have a remote job that pays enough, then

you can always come back to your little, your safe little place here.

For sure.

I just, the stuff that I accumulated is just sentimental objects that I

don't have any, I throw away, I don't any nice like electronics or anything.

It's just like little tickets and shit.

Vinyl that, like vinyl, vinyl and books, souvenirs, you know?

Yeah.

I have a lot of, a lot of records.

A lot of books as well.

Yep.

And I don't listen to my records very often and I'm like, why do

I have all these fucking records?

My record player broke.

Right.

I don't know why I don't, I don't like having all of 'em getting rid of 'em.

The closer you get to the inevitable, the, the more, the easier it is.

At least for me, it's been like clarifying in some ways, like somebody else is

just gonna throw, why am I keeping this?

Somebody else is just gonna throw this shit away.

Why When you die?

Yeah.

Is that what you're saying?

Right.

Well.

Yeah.

I mean, I surround myself with souvenirs, not, not because I want

to keep it, keep it, but because I wanna surround myself with it.

No, I get that inclination, and I do have a lot of crap around my, my house as well.

I'm not getting rid of all that stuff.

I'm just saying that like when I was in Mexico City, all I had was like

a laptop, some books, and a couple changes of clothes for like a month.

And I was perfectly happy.

True.

I felt unburdened by all of the shit that really felt for

that, for that period of time.

Sure.

And Right.

That's a very point.

A pretty short period of time.

But I was in Korea for fucking a year and a half, and year and a half.

I was the same thing.

I had as much as I could carry in a backpack.

Yeah.

What about the, the thought that you, you could come back and you would, and

you will come back to all the stuff eventually, which this is why when I

get rid of this stuff, which you did.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I'm trying to work through my fucking, uh.

Hoard like tendencies here.

I get it.

I mean, we're, it's almost, I'm defending it in a, in a half acidly way because

I, I, I know the, I I do realize the benefits of minimalism and I should

probably tap Fight Club was right.

I mean, is a Courtney thing to say, but the stuff you own ends up owning you.

Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely.

And it's totally true.

Yeah.

I'm young enough where my cheat code is just, um.

My parents' house.

Not sure.

No.

I've got a lot of, and dude, I've still got that cheat code.

I got a lot of stuff in my fucking, you, you do bedroom, okay.

Yeah, for sure.

CDs and shit.

So when I moved to LA you better believe that I'm keeping all my bullshit like

down in my basement to what you should do.

Every big move I have, dude.

Mm-hmm.

I I I fucking downsize.

You gotta do it now.

Oh, absolutely, dude.

I, I have to drive a as you can.

No, I'm the, but don't put all this stuff in your parents' basement.

Oh.

I'm throwing a lot of shit.

No, no doubt.

I sell shit or sell it.

Yeah.

Try to try to sell it to give it away.

But that's the best reason to go.

I gotta tell you this story, man.

I was doing ketamine with my big brother this past Christmas.

You know, every time I see him, I go down to the basement and uh, and I'm

like, all right, you got it back?

And he is like, yeah.

And so we sit there and we'll watch like three or four movies, probably

talk over it the entire time.

If not, or we lock in depending on our mood.

But we had this gigantic crate of action figures that we used to play

with when we were little kids in the back, back, back room of the basement

at my parents' house, back back.

So we go back, it's like the boiler room, you know, in a crawl space.

And, uh, we find it, we called it the guy box.

And I'm like, here's the guy box.

And we open up the tub and we are on Ketamine, man.

And, and I open up the, you know, the lid and we dig through this

giant thing of action figures we haven't seen in 15 years.

Mm-hmm.

For two and a half hours straight.

Just having the most nostalgic experience that I've felt.

I'm like, do you remember this one?

He's like, yeah.

Like, I'm just like, I get it.

Ketamine is just like a very like GI Joe, nostalgic feeling, you

know, GI GI Joes or what were doing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

GI Joes were two Barbies.

They were Barbies.

Well, those were too big.

No, ours were tiny little guys.

Yeah.

The little Army men.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Those, they, they, those guys were in there.

Yeah, they were my jam.

Ketamine is so kind.

To me, it's so like, it takes me by the hand and just guides me through my

memories without it being scary, like L Steven and Shrooms, l Steven and Shrooms.

It's like, look at these memories and fuck you.

Ketamine is like, look at these memories and I love yous the record to you.

To you.

This is, yeah, that's true.

You're right.

That's just for me.

I don't think, I've never had Mushroom say, look at these memories.

Fuck you to me.

Oh, I have gotten damn.

Fair enough.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Never For me, this is why I, I mean, there's a reason that.

All my friends hate it for some reason.

Right.

And it's just unique to my experience.

Definitely.

Uh, Mr. Jef Taylor, gimme a, gimme a story from your youth.

From my how, uh, story From my youth.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Something, you know, a little party story or something, or another.

Uh, one time I was on mushrooms in college and I, uh.

We were, we were rock climbing.

Uh, that sounds horrible.

There was, there was a place called, it was a terrible idea.

Yeah, yeah.

It was a place called Bong Hill.

That was this, uh, bong Hill, it was called, it was, you know, outside of ou.

I was just, I know what it is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know what you're talking about.

Um, and uh, out in the behind Bong Hill, there's like rocks and rocks,

you know, and so we're like climbing up these rocks and it was like

easy kind of climbing up the rocks.

And then suddenly it was at, I was like climbing and I was at a place where

like, there were like footholds, but like my friends had already gotten up,

but like, it was a drop, like it was like a hundred foot drop on this side.

Yeah.

Anyway, at a certain point I realized I don't know how the fuck to get up.

Um, to get up there.

Was that the shrooms or was it just you both?

I mean, it was true that I couldn't, that I was Were you a rock climber?

I wasn't.

What is this?

You was just trying it out?

No, on shrooms.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You like stuck on the mountain side or the cliff side?

No, I used like superhuman strength and actually got up to the, to the

top of the shroom strength something.

Don't you have DMT?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you do it now and again?

Yeah.

Not last time I did it was was with another friend of mine.

You dabble.

You ever tried that on accident?

Actually, I was telling my girlfriend about this today actually.

I, she asked me, she's like, what drugs have you done?

I'm like, I guess I have done DMT once.

My big brother does it like semi casually, like he does it every few months or so.

I was in high school, I think I was a senior and we stole

the bong out of his room.

'cause there was, he had like a half bowl packed.

We're like, oh, we can get a couple hits outta this.

And I think a big hit and I patched it to my best friend Tom.

He took a big hit and as he was, I was like.

Oh shit, shit, shit, shit.

I, I didn't say it, but he could see it in my eyes and he, his eyes

lit up and he was like, Jack, Jack.

I was like, oh shit.

Like, that's not weird.

Certainly not weed.

And we didn't even have to say it.

It was that obvious.

He just got, he, we just looked at each other and were like.

Dude, what are, what are we on?

Fuck.

And he started freaking out, you know, he's like, what do we do?

What do we do?

And I'm like, we can't do anything.

We just gotta chill.

And we go downstairs into my parents' kitchen to like get a glass

of water or something like that.

And he just collapses on the ground.

And I'm like, I held him up and he said that the floor collapsed

beneath him and that he fell into the basement or something like that, huh?

Yeah.

And um, no, that was the only time I did it.

It wasn't, it was just one hit, you know, and it was mixed in with some

weed, so we didn't vaporize it properly.

Uh, yeah, that's a trippy one.

That's it.

It takes you somewhere else.

That's, you meet the little elves.

Yeah, I've seen the elves.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you interact with them and it'd be like, there's like a stage at one point

and they would just be like, look at it.

They would like kind of gesture.

They wouldn't actually say anything, but they would be like, yeah.

Yeah.

That's like the classic, they're like, they're showing you Yeah.

New things.

Yeah.

That was kind of a thing that I, the fact that everybody has a very similar

experience is the daunting part.

It's like Right.

And that you, DNT happens when you die.

Yeah.

And they say, I wanna say when you dream, or is that, that's debated upon Yeah.

Or births or something.

Yeah.

Something like that.

Yeah.

And so it's, it's in there.

It's naturally occurring.

Yeah.

Which is fine with me.

Like if that's what death is, I'm all in.

That's fine.

I feel like Let's do it one it.

Yeah.

Well, it's the whole, um.

Your life flashes before your eyes thing.

Yeah.

But I also wonder if it's just like a long waking dream in a weird way.

Not waking dream, you know, dream.

Dream.

Or that we're experiencing our life flash before eyes as we speak like

this, or that we're already dead.

That we've actually been, yeah, the infinite cycle.

The infinite loop loop.

Right.

Or the groundhog issue.

This computer program.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When, when it comes to shit like that, I actually am kind of over it.

What do you mean?

Like trying to figure anything out?

Like, or thinking about it too hard?

Like it's, uh, I consider it futile, at least for my personal benefit.

Yeah.

I guess there's futility, but in my mind it's not necessarily like it can be fun.

It's an exercise.

Yeah.

I think that the, I, I think that the thinking about the ideas of what the

nature of our existence is an interesting just thing to think about in general.

Yeah.

But it can also be tolling.

It can take a toll.

Oh, absolutely.

For sure.

Yeah, that's, there's too much.

Is too much.

But yeah.

Yeah.

My first podcast.

Interview here, and I'll tell you the, uh, de gentleman.

Uh, this is Jack's first podcast interview.

Yeah.

Uh, I just wanted to, I think I'll put horns or something.

Da Sorry.

Go.

Go ahead.

Yes.

Make, make my own theme song.

Right, right, right.

There'll be a jack.

How do you think that's gonna go?

The jack theme song?

Um, guitar solo.

No lyrics or lyrics.

Jack, you yell Jack the end, Jack.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes.

That's the one.

Anyway.

Yeah.

No shrooms.

I had this Shroom trip.

I was with my friend at the time and I was in a bad place.

Mm. You know, so that's a great time to do shrooms, right?

Yeah.

I was very cocky.

You picked, you picked a good night.

And, uh, doing tripping when you're cocky like that, that's

really good to try to think that.

Yeah.

It'll get you.

Yeah.

And we were bad mood and cocky.

Both those two things are gonna get you.

Mm-hmm.

I, I went to my friend's house and we didn't measure the mushrooms at all.

We just started dunking them in Nutella and just kind that old,

that old story storm in away that like pretty much handfuls, man.

I'm sure it was the heroic dose that they speak of five grams, right?

Yeah.

And so we, um, were sitting there and this kid, Casey, he was, um,

staring at me while I'm trying to watch tv, trying to pretend like I

don't notice that he's staring at me with the widest, craziest eyes.

Like he wanted to fucking kill me.

And he keeps getting up and pacing and he looks out the window, checking the window,

you know, like, is someone out there?

That kind of thing.

Mm-hmm.

Like true paranoia.

Mm-hmm.

And so I get some of my other friends over there 'cause I'm just

starting to freak out, you know?

And they come in and they put on like basketball, which is like, Jesus trip

sitter, one-on-one, what are we doing?

Basketball.

I don't wanna see this.

And he gets up all of a sudden and he goes, you guys are

trying to fucking trick me.

He trying to fuck with me.

We're like, what?

He's like, what are we watching?

Like basketball?

He's like, no, look at their jerseys.

It's all hieroglyphics.

Like, I know that that's you, you put on like fake basketball to fuck with me.

And we're like, uh, shit.

That's fun.

We're fucked.

Yeah.

And all of a sudden he looked at me and, and my two other friends

and he goes, get the fuck out.

And I was like, what?

And I laughed and he's like, don't laugh, get your stuff and

get the fuck outta my house now.

I was like.

Shit, I start freaking out.

So I'm like, all right, let's, or just like I, the most naive

question to ask the mushroom, I said, well, what's the meaning of life?

Isn't that a, it's a ridiculous question, right?

And so let's, if I'm having this health hellish of an experience, and let's

try to figure out the meaning of life.

Hmm.

And I thought about like, who can I call right now to ask,

like, help me, help me, help me.

Who can I call?

And I thought my parents wouldn't know.

And then I think professors wouldn't know.

Carl Young wouldn't know.

The Buddha wouldn't know.

Christ wouldn't know.

Like nobody actually knows what's going on.

It freaked me out so much.

And, um, I developed some of the na, one of the nastiest cases of, of nihilism,

zero silver, silver linings, you know, and to the point where if I looked at

a, a beautiful sunset, I would just tell myself, well, this is just certain.

Color patterns.

That I've told myself, create happy emotions, which create dopamine.

And therefore when I tell myself that that's what's happening, the dopamine

doesn't come and it's all just chemicals.

It's all just pointless.

Bullshit.

Just sin.

Yeah.

And personalities don't exist.

Stuff like that.

Like, like, you know, like I'm acting all the time.

Everybody's acting all the time.

I don't know.

My parents, I don't know.

I don't know my friends, I don't know anyone.

I think that's all accurate.

Yeah.

Yeah.

True.

I still think it's accurate.

Yeah.

But I didn't deal with it.

Well.

I didn't know how to apply it to my life.

And also, you don't wanna think about it too.

You don't, there's no need to think about it too much.

Right.

D dwell on that, but, but I did.

I dwell.

It's so hard.

Yeah.

That'll do it.

And to the point where, you know, when they say ego death, it's like nobody

ever kills their ego permanently.

What you do is when, what I considered ego death to be is when, when you

kill it for a moment, and then you have to start a new one from scratch.

Yeah.

Which really sucks because I. Didn't know how to interact with my best friends or my

parents or be alone without overthinking this stuff to the point of total torture.

And I just felt, and I just was convinced that this was permanent, that I just had,

personality doesn't exist.

So like, why would I create one?

And there's no point in life anymore.

And I tried to take my life twice actually.

And, uh, it didn't work.

And I, you know, and I went to be a, a teach filmmaking at a, uh,

as a camp counselor at this like very wealthy, um, summer camp.

Yeah.

Um, and I couldn't.

I couldn't make friends there, it just wasn't happening.

I could not interact with anybody.

And they knew it.

It was weird, man.

Like it was a horrifying experience.

It felt like I had never had anxiety like that, you know?

It was a total hell.