Episode Overview: In this episode of Unblock'd, we talk with Yat Siu to explore the future of Web3, the altcoin economy, and what it takes to navigate exponential technological change. With over 600 portfolio companies and a vision to democratize access to digital assets, Yat shares insights from decades of experience across multiple continents and tech cycles.

Topics Covered:

• The mindset shift required for navigating Web3 and exponential change • Why volatility and chaos are necessary for innovation and progress • How geography and infrastructure shape entrepreneurial culture • The role of human creativity and emotion in driving breakthrough innovations • Why altcoins will collectively surpass Bitcoin in market value • Animoca Brands' unique operating model and upcoming NASDAQ listing • The inevitable tokenization of every business and industry • Investment philosophy for the Web3 era • 2026 outlook and the impact of regulatory clarity

Key Quotes:

"The only constant is change, and the rate of change is now daily or even hourly."

"Volatility is part of life. If you don't have volatility, we wouldn't have change."

"If you want to live life comfortably, you're not pushing yourself forward. You won't see much progress."

"Every business that doesn't tokenize will lose to the competitor who does."

"We believe altcoins will collectively be larger than Bitcoin, just as the stock market is larger than gold."

Connect with Yat Siu:

• Twitter/X: @ysiu

• Company: animocabrands.com

UnBlock'd podcast with Dr. Jemma Green

For more information on Dr. Jemma Green

Visit: https://www.powerledger.io/

Or connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jemmagreen/

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Co-host: Anthony Perl

Produced by: Podcasts Done For You

View this episode on YouTube @PodcastsDoneForYou_clients

The Alt Coin Economy, Yasui on Web3 Investment and ANCA Brands.

2

In this episode, Dr.

3

Gemma Green sits down with

yasui co-founder and executive

4

chairman of ANCA Brands, who's

pioneering the alt coin economy.

5

With over 600 portfolio companies, YA

shares, why embracing volatility and

6

chaos is essential for innovation and

how Ani moca is democratizing access to

7

Web3 investments through their upcoming

NASDAQ listing from the geography of

8

innovation to the inevitable tokenization

of every business, they explore how the

9

alt coin economy will collectively surpass

Bitcoin and reshape digital assets.

10

I'm your co-host Anthony Pearl,

and whether you're an investor or

11

a startup looking for insights,

it's time to get unblocked.

12

Jemma Green: Thank you so much

for joining us on Unblocked Today.

13

We're really excited to

be speaking with you.

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Yat Siu: Thank you for having me.

15

I'm excited to be here.

16

Jemma Green: Pleasure.

17

So you've worked across multiple

continents and tech booms and cycles.

18

Perhaps you could start with the

mindset you think is critical today

19

in investors and founders navigating

the next wave of Web3 and what's

20

happening in the market right now.

21

Yat Siu: I don't think it's really

changed that much in certain things.

22

It's just maybe the constructs may have

changed a little bit, but the idea that

23

you're basically investing in things

that can completely transform society,

24

it's not just about the asymmetric

opportunity, it's the fact that the

25

change that we see is exponential.

26

And particularly in the

early days of the internet.

27

So I'm a child of the seventies, so

I've basically experienced both massive

28

societal change growing up in Europe.

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I grew up in Austria, right during the

time when essentially we still had the

30

Cold War, at least the last Cold War.

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And that was one where we still

had the Iron Curtain between

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Eastern and Western Europe.

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But the other thing of course we

had was the different forms of

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media that were changing the world.

35

At that point, it was TV and

satellite, before it was radio.

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And of course, afterwards came the

internet and each of them provided

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forms of exponential change that

were difficult for people to measure.

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But.

39

If you could project that, not just

mathematically, but just project that

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in terms of, okay, well basically

what are the network effects?

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What are the growth potential

that can come from that?

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Then you could kind of map out sort of

the exponential growth curve and from

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that, not that we would get it right

necessarily all the time, but from that

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you can then estimate maybe what is the

rate of change and therefore the kind of

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transformative change that could happen.

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And I think the part where everyone

started to somewhat lose the plot

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really was probably when the internet

first came around in sort of more

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of a mainstream side, back in, let's

call it mid nineties, it was really

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starting to sort of gain some steam.

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And I think it was very difficult for

people to imagine just how the rate of

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that exponential growth could happen.

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And today it's happening

everywhere, right?

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Whether this is, you know,

with ai, whether this is with

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mobile phones before, right?

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And so I think what we need to be prepared

for, regardless of as an individual or

56

as an investor, is that we need to think

of every new innovation as one that has

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the potential to really be explosive.

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And because of the fact that we're

so interconnected, any new idea,

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not just sort of social media and

virality, but any construct can actually

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travel so quickly, so rapidly and

be adopted so fast that it is really

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difficult to, let's call it control.

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That.

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And I would say that we need to

be much more accustomed to an

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environment that is more chaotic.

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The world has in one way.

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Appear to be more chaotic than

it is certainly from, but I don't

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think it's ever been less chaotic.

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It's just that we get to see

less so because we have less

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information and we have less data.

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In our world, it seems things

appear to be stable, but in reality

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it was always kind of chaotic.

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And now we just see all the chaos

in our faces all the time, and we're

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just not accustomed enough to do that.

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So I think this is where this

sort of volatility, if you

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will, is the opportunity.

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We haven't trained ourselves really

to whether, whether to go to school or

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society to deal with that volatility.

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Right?

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So I think the thinking is you have

to be comfortable with volatility.

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You have to be thinking in terms

of exponential growth all the time.

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And you have to be thinking in terms of

basically sort of, that changes, you know,

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it's a trope about the changes everywhere.

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And I think, I forgot the exact phrase,

but you know, the only constant is change.

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That's one of those, you

know, it is a bit of a trope.

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However, it is true.

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Right.

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And the difference is, is that the rate

of change is now probably sort of daily

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as opposed to, or sometimes even hourly.

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I mean, if you just look at the news from

just the last couple of days ago, you

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say like, what the hell just happened?

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Right?

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You know, all these things.

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And then being able to

sort of calculate that.

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So I think we just have

to be prepared for that.

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Everything else follows from there, but

we have to be really prepared for that.

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And which means also that you can't

look at the past as the perfect

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model for the future, which is

what a lot of people used to do.

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Right?

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And you can learn from the past.

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I think that's important.

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History is a great teacher.

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However, we can't say, well,

because this worked in the past,

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this is gonna work in the future.

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In the same way.

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I think we have to distinguish

between sort of that.

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The only thing I think history

teaches us very well is human

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behavior, because somehow that

doesn't seem to change too much.

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So I think that's the lens you can take.

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However, when it comes to technology,

when it comes to innovation, when it

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comes to things like, and recently

like AI or even blockchain, we have

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to accept the fact that there's gonna

be radical change and we can look at

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the past as a model for the future.

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Jemma Green: Yeah, so it sounds

like you're saying there's actually

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a new skill set required where

because of the free flowing nature of

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information and we're exposed to so

more to actually absorb that, digest

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it and discern how to deal with it.

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And there's a big opportunity there

as well, as well as these sort of

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technological waves of innovation.

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And we are in one right now.

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Yat Siu: I think technology

innovation is constant as well.

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And if you look at the sort of human

history, technology has always been the

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one thing that completely changed society,

except that we won't necessarily see

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it per se, because we might understand

the technology, whether it's the

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telephone or whether it's the railway

or whether it's horse carriages, right?

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I mean, these are all forms of technology

that have completely transformed society,

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but the effects can only be seen local.

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And I think the difference right now

is that we can see the effects of this

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globally because we're more global

and because we have access to all

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what's happening in the world, and we

can observe it and see that, right?

130

Which also means that we actually have

the ability to navigate it better.

131

Theoretically, and we also have

the ability to shape it as well.

132

So I would say that before we were

somewhat powerless, much more powerless to

133

do stuff because we wouldn't see what was

happening across the world, or we wouldn't

134

know that the effects of the railway

that is being built has an impact because

135

we just don't know what that means.

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However, today we actually have access to

that information so we can map things out

137

more and more and project things more.

138

And they say this thing about, you know,

being open-minded and being flexible.

139

I mean, it's always been true, but

it's probably more true than now.

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And I think also the other perspective

is that you have to be willing to

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basically give up on old ideas if,

if it were right, so let's call them

142

beliefs or whatever it is, right?

143

Whether it's your belief on, since

we're talking about crypto, your

144

belief on money or your belief on

how the financial system works.

145

Well, you have to throw that out.

146

Or in the past with the internet,

your belief on how media should work

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or which became social media or how

distribution should work, or how

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even sort of language works, right?

149

It's, it's a, all of these things are,

are radically changing so quickly.

150

Anthony Perl: You talked

about chaos and volatility.

151

I'm intrigued.

152

Do they have to go hand in hand

or can what you are doing create

153

less volatility in the chaos?

154

Yat Siu: So it's a bit of a controversial

statement for some, I would say,

155

and I think a lot of people say this

about capitalism as well, right?

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Which is that one of the things that

is bad about capitalism is the implied

157

volatility in it because of the fact that

markets are, give you information, they

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tell you what works, what doesn't work,

but as a result of that, it's volatile.

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A business goes out of

business or does really well.

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A share price goes up a

lot, for instance, right?

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These are actually very volatile

examples that happen every single day.

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And I would argue that

volatility is part of life.

163

And if you don't have volatility, we

wouldn't have change, which nature.

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Sort of expresses in the form of

mutations in that sense, right?

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We have basically volatility inherent

and all sorts of things that could be

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dangerous, that could sometimes lead to

death, that could lead to these things.

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But on the other hand, that volatility

also creates sort of incredible

168

opportunities and growth and things

that we wouldn't normally see.

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The struggle I I see with certain nations,

Europe, as an example, as a continent, is

170

that they want to tame volatility, right?

171

And the problem when taming

volatility, and I understand the

172

sentiment, so I appreciate it, but

when you tame volatility, you're

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actually not letting its go.

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It's natural course.

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And it's kind of like saying that

humans essentially have a predictable

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nature about them, and this by the way,

goes down not just to sort of early

177

days of philosophical thinking, but

also about economical thinking, right?

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Economists have been so focused

around trying to turn economy into

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a science, but actually economy

is act sort of social science.

180

Because what it ultimately is, is

a study of humans, how we interact

181

with each other when it's not

physics, it's not biology, right?

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It's quite different.

183

And so that means you have to try to

predict human nature and people are trying

184

to say, yeah, whether it's Chicago school

or Austrian school or whatever school

185

you wanna put out, pianism, whatever

it is that you wanna sort of, sort of

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put out in terms of an economic theory.

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Actually, the reason why it

always struggles is because.

188

It's trying to basically create a

prediction of a human model, and

189

inherently humans are unpredictable,

and in fact, I would argue it's our

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unpredictability that is our inner

chaos, if you will, that makes us so

191

beautiful and so special, and the kind

of places that can actually celebrate.

192

And allow that to nurture and grow, tend

to be the places that have the highest

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level of innovation and the highest

level of growth, and the kind of places

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where you control that tend to be the

kind of places that actually struggle

195

with that because you don't allow it,

because there's some kind of system or

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norm, or let's call it antibody, that's

basically saying you can't do that

197

because it's not societally acceptable

or it's not something you should do.

198

I remember in the eighties and

nineties I was obviously a kid.

199

Kids had no authority to say anything.

200

You have to listen to elders.

201

That was it.

202

Right?

203

And if you had an opinion, shut up.

204

Right?

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Because you had no place to say, you know.

206

Then today it's like, you

know, totally acceptable.

207

In fact, expected you could be a

16-year-old kid and you have some wisdom

208

to share and people are like, okay.

209

It depends which society you go to, right?

210

So these are things essentially that

we have to sort of kill these sacred

211

cows that we thought were important,

but actually they, they hold us back.

212

And again, to this question, I think

volatility and chaos is necessary.

213

It's not to say that it's comfortable.

214

And again, if you want to live

life comfortably, then you're

215

not actually going into the areas

of change and you're not pushing

216

yourself forward, I would argue.

217

And again, maybe that's

what you want, that's okay.

218

However, that means also you won't see

much progress and plenty of countries in

219

the world that are good examples of those

kind of places that don't want to see

220

that kind of change and are left behind.

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Anthony Perl: I think it's interesting

too, isn't it, that with the push around

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AI in particular, and I think it's

actually leading to more creativity

223

and interacting more on that human

level, which is more as we talk about

224

in marketing, for example, that they

say 99% of decisions are emotional and

225

the 1% is just justifying the emotion.

226

So that really talks to that whole idea

of creativity and to a degree chaos

227

as you say, because you never couldn't

quite be sure how a human is gonna react.

228

Yat Siu: So just to riff on that a

little bit, emotions is a great example

229

of something that is not sort of

inherently predictable per se, right?

230

So, so that's also what

makes us both special.

231

A little bit terrifying

at times as well, right?

232

But if you have emotions and you're

guided by something that doesn't

233

seem logical, that actually is the

part that I would say differs between

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us and an, let's call it an ai.

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Because we obviously have something

that affects us in some form

236

or fashion that some may argue

isn't entirely programmatic.

237

Although there's some people out there

who would argue that we're just biological

238

computers and that ultimately, you know,

we're gonna get trumped by AI because

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they're just better computers in us.

240

And I think some people out there,

including myself, that would disagree with

241

that notion because I don't believe that

humans are entirely computable per se.

242

In fact, nature isn't entirely computable

and there's many other elements around,

243

let's call it sort of points of evidence

that would demonstrate that whether

244

things like quantum mechanics or good

and computers theorem, there's whole

245

sort of ideas as well as proofs out

there that could demonstrate that we

246

ought to be more than just computers.

247

But I think the thing that really

sort of makes us so special is this

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idea of we do things for pleasure.

249

So for instance, when you think of the

earliest forms of innovation, I think

250

there's a great example of when the

cavemen back in their days basically

251

were sort of finally getting to some

level of stability of some sort, right?

252

Where they have their fire and

they could do their hunting.

253

Then they started painting and a

lot of people were like, okay, so

254

what are these cave paintings for?

255

Is it a diary?

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Is it some practical information?

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Or in some cases it turned out to

be maybe just for whimsical art.

258

And one of the things that they also

started doing was they started basically

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making musical instruments out of bones.

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Now, just think about that from a

very purely practical perspective.

261

If you were just freely utilitarian, the

very first thing you do once you found

262

some level of stability is, well, how to

make more food, or how to make more dis.

263

You wouldn't sit back and say,

let's make a musical instrument that

264

basically is entertaining, right?

265

And it turns out that actually that's

what we found in these excavations and

266

archeology, that people started making

whimsical, sort of entertaining sort of

267

instruments and artifacts that were for

your personal enjoyment, entertainment.

268

And then of course, later on, these

type of innovations would end up

269

becoming things that might change

the world in a different way.

270

For instance, the inspiration of the

keyboard that every person in the world.

271

Uses actually was essentially

a musical instrument.

272

It was inspired by essentially

the keyboard of a piano, right?

273

The very first typewriter

actually looks like a piano.

274

It doesn't actually look like the sort

of query keyboard that we have right now.

275

And from that came the

idea, wait, hold on.

276

Actually, this is kind of efficient

in this works, but people didn't

277

design the piano for utility.

278

They designed it entirely for

entertainment and bring it back

279

to even the more modern, perhaps,

you know, talking about ai.

280

Nvidia, which is of course by market

cap probably the largest or one of the

281

largest companies in the world today.

282

I think at one point they hit $5 trillion.

283

They serviced initially the gaming

industry, and it was because of gamers

284

who wanted to experience their favorite

game at higher fidelity, at higher

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graphics, at better speed for an entirely

whimsical, basically entertainment

286

and personal emotional experience.

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They paid all that money for better

and better graphic cards until

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these graphic cards were able to

essentially allow us to do things

289

like bitcoin mining and obviously AI

compute for things like simulation.

290

So this idea and this construct, we

as humans have this sort of creative,

291

emotional, whimsical nature about us

that forces us to create these sort

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of, let's call them wacky ideas that

don't make any sense whatsoever from

293

a utility standpoint, but here we go.

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And then they open the pathways

to the biggest and greatest

295

inventions we've ever seen.

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Anthony Perl: Yeah, there is

certainly some amazing things.

297

Which brings me to the other point that

you raised before that I'm intrigued in.

298

You talked about innovation

being encouraged in some

299

countries and not in others.

300

So you're someone who has lived

in and had a lot to do with

301

multiple different countries.

302

So are there some examples of where

it's working and where it's not working?

303

Yat Siu: I mean, it's not a

super straightforward answer,

304

but generally speaking, every

nation has innovation envy.

305

Every nation wants to say that

they're innovative, but what are

306

the ingredients to make that happen?

307

One of the things that I found so

fascinating when I first visited Silicon

308

Valley was that walking around Silicon

Valley is particularly uninspiring.

309

I don't mean that in the

sense that the people aren't

310

inspiring, they're very inspiring.

311

It's the fact that the environment

is entirely uninspiring.

312

I mean, your internet

sometimes doesn't work, right.

313

The infrastructure is pretty bad.

314

Right.

315

You know, the technology

that they have is, Hmm.

316

You know, uh, a little bit backwards.

317

The buildings are generally low rises.

318

Um, I'm talking about

Palo Alto here, right?

319

But the yet is the center of innovation.

320

And so for the most part, and is sort of

touted as an example because the biggest

321

companies or tech companies of the

world tend to have emerged from there.

322

And so what makes it special?

323

Well, part of it is that you have

basically a very open-minded community.

324

Sure.

325

But you have also a set

of people who look at.

326

Backing startups as a sport.

327

And so what I mean that is that if

you go and hang around sort of the

328

Starbucks in Palo Alto, you'd have a

hard time not sort of inadvertently

329

overhearing some investment, some

startup, some cool company that

330

they sort of invested in, right?

331

Whereas maybe in other cities around

the world, they might talk about

332

restaurants that way, or they might

talk about a real estate investment that

333

way, whatever the construct is, right?

334

So that's part of that, essentially

having a community where everyone

335

basically contributing the capital

back into the growth of the ecosystem.

336

But of course there's sort of

government and regulatory things that

337

can be supportive of that, right?

338

Countries are putting grants and

countries are trying to sort of

339

provide tax breaks and so on.

340

But these turned out to be really

sort of secondary as an effect.

341

So they help a little bit, but what's

really important is the cultural

342

social mindset shift of a mindset of

essentially the people who are there.

343

And one example, historically that's

always been an issue for, particularly

344

in Asia, and again, there's some

demographic reasons why that's changing,

345

but it's been an issue, is that,

you know, in America, for instance.

346

A lot of young people actually,

most young people have to leave

347

home when they go to college and

then they don't come back to home.

348

Right.

349

Basically, you're effectively

cast out, as it were.

350

I know some friends of mine that

if they go, and again, this is not

351

a common occurrence, but sometimes

you say, I wanna live back home.

352

Right.

353

Actually, their parents

might charge them rent.

354

Right?

355

But when you go to Asia, particularly in

places like Hong Kong for instance, it's

356

not just that you are welcomed, of course,

it's more like, it's almost expected.

357

And because of the cost of real

estate being really high, you tend to

358

sometimes live with your parents until

you're in your thirties sometimes.

359

And I remember when we hired some

of our very first people back in the

360

nineties, I wasn't just interviewing

sort of the, the kid as it were, I was

361

also being interviewed by the parents.

362

And again, this isn't so much the case

now, but it's because the family had such

363

an incredible influence back in the day.

364

And I would get complaints from them.

365

Why is my son not home for dinner?

366

His work is like nine to six right now.

367

This is of course in the

nineties and early two thousands.

368

But the point simply being that that was

the culture, and in one hand you have a

369

very strong family unit, but the influence

of your parents is very, very strong.

370

So if your parents don't approve

of what you do and you live in

371

the same household, it's kind of

hard not to be influenced by that.

372

Whereas if you pushed out of your

home and you're basically just living

373

with everyone else of your same age

group and you're away from home, then

374

you're much more independent in a

sense, and you basically just do what

375

you wanna do, sort of yourself or what

you're being pushed into or whatever.

376

So that's also part of that.

377

Right.

378

And then of course, the other thing is

that in some ways you look at the us,

379

the fact that the US is so messy is a

negative on one hand, but also provides

380

the opportunity spectrum for why basically

you have so much innovation growth because

381

there's so many needs to be fixed or

to be done and things aren't perfect.

382

And also I think there's a

lot of empty spaces as well.

383

I was observing this even when I went to

the US and stayed there for a little while

384

and commute her just generally very long.

385

Right.

386

You know, everything takes like

such a long period of time, right?

387

Can we have like an hour and

a half commute normal, right?

388

And then when you go to Hong

Kong, 20 minutes is far.

389

Everyone's like, my goodness, right?

390

However, you are in a lot of empty spaces

when you're in a car for an hour and

391

an hour and a half when you go there.

392

Which means that you're listening

to podcasts, you listen to music,

393

you, you have different things

where you're basically kind

394

of not doing anything right.

395

And because you're in a car and it's

not self-driving cars just yet, you

396

can't just be on your phone and do

stuff, right, or, or read a paper.

397

You kind of be, have to be there.

398

So it's very audio, but it's also

something that you sort of have to think.

399

And I think this is part of that.

400

Whereas in places like Hong Kong,

which wants to promote innovation,

401

but you don't have a lot of empty

time, you don't have time to be bored.

402

Everything's pushing you along all the

time, especially when you're a kid.

403

And so I think these are all these

kind of elements and ingredients that

404

help this innovation mindset as well.

405

So you just have to let people

just kind of get bored and sort

406

of sit there and, and do nothing.

407

And inadvertently, I think some places

like in the US have created these

408

sort of, I guess, uh, liminal spaces.

409

Not intentionally necessarily, it's just

the poor infrastructure, but there you go.

410

Very interesting.

411

Jemma Green: So fascinating

what you just said.

412

You're saying that actually the

geography of the place actually created

413

the preconditions for innovation.

414

Yat Siu: Absolutely.

415

And so when you look at a place like

Hong Kong, which is a great place, right?

416

I live here and I love it.

417

But then you look at a place like China,

and China has so much more innovation.

418

It's not just because it's, they

say, yeah, it's a big market.

419

It's a big country.

420

That's true, of course.

421

Right?

422

But similarly to the US it has

a lot of things that need to be

423

built as, as very large spaces.

424

People commute for hours on a

train that is fairly efficient.

425

But the point simply being that you have

essentially a much stronger innovation,

426

uh, culture and innovation mindset there.

427

And of course you have a country

that basically didn't have anything.

428

I mean, my parents' generation,

if they had been in China,

429

would've been a generation of

people who had lost everything.

430

So that means that I would be

the generation that essentially

431

would be experiencing opportunity

and wealth for the first time.

432

And then my children would be

growing up slightly better.

433

Of course, however, we experienced

what life, and we know what life was

434

like when there was nothing, right?

435

Versus if you're in other places, you

were kind of comfortable all your life.

436

And in some ways you take

certain things for granted

437

because it's always been there.

438

Are

439

Jemma Green: you aware of Paul Krugmans

theory or Agglomeration economics?

440

I think he won a Nobel Prize for it.

441

But it's basically the theory surrounded,

like the co-location of related

442

industries creates, geographically

speaking creates the preconditions for

443

innovation and also the close proximity

of them and drives deficiencies like kind

444

of vertical integration kind of idea.

445

And it feels a little bit at like

at odds with what you are saying,

446

although my experience is that if

you jam pack everything together, you

447

don't have space and you don't have

that processing time and boredom.

448

Like my kids are constantly telling

me, you know, I'm bored and it's

449

like I have to solve their boredom.

450

But I actually think boredom is total.

451

Like where do ideas come from otherwise

and where do insights and discernment,

452

like they're all really important skills

and if you've just got white noise,

453

there's no liminal space as you say.

454

Yat Siu: Yeah, I, I think there's

a distinction to be made around

455

infrastructure that is there and how it's

used versus having zero infrastructure.

456

You know, if you go to.

457

Certain countries were torn places like

say in Africa for instance, like Somalia

458

or so on, then yes, it doesn't matter.

459

You know, it's just still gonna work.

460

Right.

461

The infrastructure just is, isn't there?

462

Right.

463

What I think, however, what we're

really describing here is the power

464

of network effects and the proximity

of these network effects matter.

465

The difference though is especially

when you look at sort of industrial

466

economies, and in a way, even though of

course we are post-industrial, there's

467

a lot of our, the world today that

operates in an industrial construct.

468

When you look at, for instance,

the, the cities in America, the

469

IBM towns or the GE towns, right?

470

I mean, they're basically

sort of towns that were built

471

specifically for that purposes.

472

And then they were adjacent

because they were in New Jersey,

473

close to New York or something.

474

So, so there was something that was

there within that kind of network, right?

475

And I think there is a strong

historical reason why the US

476

subsidizes essentially gas and oil.

477

Because from their lens, subsidizing gas

and oil essentially greases the economic

478

engine because it makes it cheaper for

people to move and connect with each

479

other and do business and do transport

and to deliver goods and whatever.

480

So that's still true.

481

I think the difference though is,

is that, well, a lot of this is

482

now moved virtually in this world.

483

So the network connections

that we can establish don't

484

have to be entirely physical.

485

So that means that, you know, you can now

conduct business anywhere in the world

486

and you can basically do that efficiently.

487

It doesn't necessarily replace human

connection, but it does make it possible.

488

It's basically to connect and to

build products and services and to

489

do business around the world without

actually having to be physically there.

490

So there is that part.

491

And of course as we deal more and more

with sort of virtual services and the

492

equivalent of virtual commodities,

which is effectively crypto kind of is

493

you do away with a lot of the practical

sort of logistics aspects that normal

494

commodities would've had, endure.

495

I need a shipping port.

496

Why is Hong Kong or places like Hamburg

or New York or Guangdong so important?

497

Because they are shipping

ports for goods and services.

498

And since we're physical beings, we

still need those goods and services.

499

Right.

500

However, there's another aspect of that,

goods and services that is becoming much

501

more prevalent, which is essentially

these virtual goods and services and

502

those ports no longer are limited by

space and geography in the same way that

503

essentially sort of physical goods are.

504

So Hong Kong as a port is

undeniably powerful because it is

505

in a spot that is not just sort

of practical, but geographically

506

in the super spot as it were.

507

Like location is

everything in this example.

508

But in the virtual world, you

don't need that type of location.

509

You just need strong internet connection.

510

Right?

511

And that's one of the reasons why

locales that have, like if you look

512

at what happened in Korea after the

IMAF bailout, one of the very first

513

things that Korea did back in 1999

was to essentially invest and build

514

massive broadband infrastructure.

515

And a lot of people were deriding that

and saying, you can't feed donation and

516

you're building essentially broadband.

517

You know, what is that all about?

518

Right.

519

And now Korea is the 12th or

30th largest GDP in the world.

520

That is entirely powered by essentially

the creative economies that comes

521

from intellectual property and

digital services powering some the,

522

you know, whether it's K-pop, whether

it's gaming companies, whether it's

523

Samsung, it doesn't really matter.

524

Right.

525

Korea has become this powerhouse,

but they don't produce oil, they

526

don't have natural resources.

527

They're not a great shipping port.

528

Mm-hmm.

529

Because they built the infrastructure

that allowed for them to have an

530

advantage towards others by creating

essentially that domestic sort of highway.

531

But it wasn't a physical highway,

it was a virtual highway.

532

Jemma Green: I mean, you've said a lot

of things that I wanted to dive into,

533

but I think historically the kind of

shipping powers of the world commanded a

534

lot of control of currencies and economic

power, and we're now in a paradigm

535

where those things are still relevant.

536

I think from the port example that

you just gave, but there's also this

537

other element of how technologically

advanced or concentration of activity

538

around like innovation that can

drive economic growth as well.

539

When you think about hiring people,

for example, the mindset that you

540

just described at the beginning,

yet around being able to synthesize

541

such a vast amount of information

firstly and draw useful insights one.

542

And then the other aspect, which we

just touched upon in this conversation

543

is where are they based and how does

that feed into the kind of, um, animal

544

that they are in the corporate world?

545

How did those two things, which kind

of very important for how you think

546

about innovation feed into how you

hire and bring people into your team?

547

Yat Siu: Super challenging question,

not because the answer doesn't seem

548

obvious, but because it's hard to

find people like that in general.

549

Right.

550

So first one I would say

generally speaking, I think

551

the era of specialization is.

552

Basically going away.

553

And I don't mean that you don't need to

be very strong and have subject matter

554

expertise in certain things, but if

you are only good at that, then you are

555

limiting yourself because in some ways

an AI or a computer can probably do some

556

of these tasks very efficiently as well.

557

And in fact, I think what differentiates

us between the machines much more

558

so is the ability to synthesize

this through the lens of our human

559

experience, which I spoke earlier

with Anthony about, is essentially

560

not entirely predictable because we're

humans and because we are emotional.

561

And it's that sort of chaotic, impulsive

nature that sometimes actually delivers

562

these surprises that are sometimes

whimsical and sometimes ridiculous,

563

but then come with incredible outcomes.

564

And so I think that's really the

sort of superpower that we have.

565

And we used to basically build that by.

566

Constructing experts to come around us.

567

So we have like 10, 20, 30

experts come together and we

568

try to share that information

and then come up with something.

569

It's somewhat inefficient, but it

works because you know how to do

570

this basically, you know, understand

metals and this guy understands the

571

chemistry of that, and this person

understands the geography of here come

572

together and they build something.

573

Right.

574

And today, all of this essentially

can be done by a machine.

575

And so the compounding of that has to

be the person who can see the vision for

576

it rather than basically just the parts.

577

Right?

578

And they have to have an understanding,

but they don't have to understand the

579

full mechanics of it quite the same way.

580

You know, I think the earliest form

of that mass abstraction, I would

581

argue, I mean there's many examples,

but I would say the best example that

582

I can recall from my own childhood

is when we got the calculator, and

583

I grew up in an era when we were not

allowed to use a calculator in class

584

because that was considered cheating.

585

So now.

586

Everyone has a calculator, and what

we've really done is we basically

587

ized math and that allowed a person

who could be an incredible architect,

588

did not have to be a mathematical

genius in his head anymore, but.

589

The architects of before might not

be able to pass architecture school

590

if they weren't able to be, not

just strong in math, but essentially

591

almost like human computers.

592

Right.

593

And I'm just sort of giving some

examples of how the fields of basically

594

study and opportunity have grown so

much more because essentially things

595

like math and sciences and so on isn't

something that was only reserved for

596

the few who happened to be sort of

almost functioning like human computers.

597

Right?

598

And you see this with medicine as

well, much to the annoyance of doctors.

599

How many people walk into the doctor with

ideas about what's happening to them, and

600

the doctor no longer can just prescribe

them, but actually has to have a debate.

601

Sometimes good, sometimes bad.

602

Or the role of teaching, right?

603

The role of teaching in schools used

to be essentially very didactic.

604

It's like top down, you basically, I tell

you and you just repeat what I say, okay.

605

Right?

606

And now it's like, no, no, no.

607

I got stuff that I'm reading.

608

This is what chat GPT is saying.

609

Is it true?

610

Is it not?

611

I have opinions because I'm

seeing stuff there, right?

612

So teachers have to basically

be able to debate that.

613

And in fact, there's no way that they can

compete with the knowledge that actually

614

is percolating within their own classroom,

let alone on an annualized basis, right?

615

Where every kid is probably coming

in smarter than the cohort before,

616

while they're kind of stuck in

time a little bit, because it's

617

teaching the same stuff, right?

618

So all of that's changed.

619

And so you have to be able to

navigate that and you have to be

620

able to sort of synthesize that.

621

And I think that's the skill that's

needed, which means that, for instance,

622

when you wanna hire someone and he

has to be able to put that together,

623

I think that one of the most important

skills is understanding human behavior.

624

Understanding humans generally.

625

So if you're really, really good at

technology, that's great, but if you can

626

interact with humans and you wouldn't

know how to build for them and you

627

wouldn't know what they want, and you also

wouldn't be able to sort of coordinate

628

with the people within your office or

your fellow coworkers how to give the

629

most of it, because it's no longer about

you doing the task really well just by

630

yourself, but essentially how to get

the most out of the people who you're

631

working together with, whether they're

physically with you or not, right?

632

And so, yeah, you need to

have knowledge of that.

633

I think you need to have a background

of history, liberal arts, right?

634

And that's not something that we've

been telling sort of our children to do.

635

We said, okay, you wanna be a scientist.

636

You do this right?

637

However, the best economists or the

most successful entrepreneurs tend

638

to be people who have a deep interest

in history and tend to be people

639

who also study and read philosophy,

and they do other things, right?

640

They're not just doing

the one thing, right?

641

So I think you need to be basically

much more interdisciplinary and you

642

need to be interested in that too.

643

Jemma Green: It's great

comment that you've made.

644

I mean, I'd say it's not just teachers

I think that are challenged by that.

645

It's parents as well that you

know, their, their children know

646

a lot more and are praising back.

647

And my mom's visiting me at the moment

from Australia and she said, oh,

648

parenting is so different today, I think.

649

And I think that she was

an appointing to that.

650

Like I think she was really saying that

I was a really good child compared to

651

my own children, her grandchildren.

652

Yat Siu: Just to add to that

comment, I think we grew up in an

653

environment where it was a hierarchy.

654

Jemma Green: Yes.

655

Yat Siu: And so parents were people

you would listen to pretty much

656

authoritatively because they knew better.

657

And in the construct of the

world they did know better.

658

But it wasn't because they necessarily

had more intelligence per se.

659

It's because the tools and access

of information was something

660

they had that we did not have.

661

Right.

662

They had access to books or they read

them before we did, or they had access

663

to basically information through work or

through newspapers that we didn't have.

664

Right.

665

So in a way they basically

had information arbitrage.

666

Yes.

667

And they essentially were able

to sort of navigate this way.

668

That information operation is all gone.

669

And in fact, there's information that

our children have that is probably

670

not just more advanced, but it's more

sophisticated or it's more developed

671

or whatever than, than we have.

672

And then, you know, I think the role

of parents, it can no longer be that

673

from the perspective of certainly.

674

The classic hierarchy.

675

I think it's, it's more about values

and mentorship and again, it's about

676

being essentially a good human rather

than necessarily having all the answers.

677

Jemma Green: Yeah, I think that feeds

into the idea that AI is gonna disrupt

678

software engineering, for example, or

anyone can now write copy using chat

679

GBT, but we've all seen our documents

and copy, oh, that was written by chat

680

GBT, and that is really pudding, I'd say.

681

But I think what you're saying is

that there will be people, but if

682

you wanna write good copy, you could

do chat GBT to write better copy if

683

you're already a very good copywriter.

684

But if you are average at it, you

probably will get an average outcome.

685

And I think that points to

the skillset that you are just

686

trying to distinguish here.

687

Probably equally for software engineers

that are very good, they'll be able to get

688

more out of AI tools to write really good

copy and architect things, whereas if you

689

are average, it might not be that helpful.

690

Yat Siu: Absolutely.

691

Yeah.

692

So the way I like to think about this

is, I mean, the criticism that some

693

people have around ai, which I do accept

as well, is that using AI can make

694

you dumber because you become lazier

because it just does the answer for you.

695

However, if you apply it and you use

it essentially as a way to hone your

696

skill, essentially you have someone who

can meet you at your level, regardless

697

of whether it's high or low, and

then from there on you can improve.

698

'cause people don't sort of

just jump outta bed and say,

699

I'm really good at that.

700

Like everything you do is a process

of hard work and iteration, iteration,

701

iteration, and sort of, you know,

basically not doing necessarily the

702

same thing, but versions of that.

703

So if you go through 50 copies is

better than if you go to five copies.

704

It's better than when you go through

one copy or two copies, right?

705

And so the dumb version of this

is, I'm giving it to chat, GBT,

706

or I'm giving it to an ai, they

give me a copy and that's it.

707

That's the dumb version, right?

708

And that's where you become dumber.

709

However, if they start giving you

copy after copy, after copy, and

710

you start inquiring more and more

and more, your copy, your final

711

work that you're gonna put in with

your ideas ends up becoming better.

712

Jemma Green: Yes.

713

Yat Siu: And that.

714

Is something that isn't going to only

be reserved for the very best this, it's

715

going to be reserved for people who may

not have had the ability to be able to

716

gain that position because they didn't

have tools that could get them there.

717

And now they do.

718

Mm-hmm.

719

Right.

720

And we see this, you know, when you

go on YouTube for instance, how many

721

people are probably better musicians

then Basically, you know, some

722

professional musicians out there, right?

723

Or better chefs or better cooks

or better photographers, right?

724

And the mental model, I like to think

of it a little bit like, is ultimately

725

what Instagram did in a way, was it

made everyone a great photographer.

726

Much to the cha Grand of the classic

photographer who basically thought that

727

the fact that I owned this expensive

camera, right, and giving me wonderful

728

shots already gave me a leg up.

729

Suddenly these filters suddenly could

do all the stuff that they would sort

730

of laboriously put effort into it,

and that basically just all went away.

731

But what it also did, it allowed people

to become creative with these tools

732

because they became available to everyone.

733

And I think that's basically what AI is.

734

And so you have people who take lazy

shots and just take a photo, and

735

that's it, because Instagram makes

it easy, or TikTok makes it easy.

736

And then you have the groups

of people who look at that and

737

say, actually, you know what?

738

What's the angle?

739

What's the thing?

740

How do make it better?

741

But I know longer need to know about

the machinery or the camera, right?

742

I have the idea in my head and I can

basically make it possible without having

743

to deal with the mechanics around that.

744

So I think the same is true for ai,

whether it's copywriting, whether

745

it's art, doesn't really matter.

746

Jemma Green: With the example that you

gave before about Korea making that

747

really strategic investment around

internet infrastructure, would you see AI

748

infrastructure like chips and data centers

in the same way, or because there's so

749

much innovation happening around that kind

of infrastructure, it's not necessarily

750

like a ticket to success equally.

751

For the companies that

are investing in that.

752

Because if you look at the stock market,

a lot of the value is like a handful

753

of companies that have historically

very asset light, infrastructure light,

754

and are now very infrastructure heavy.

755

And a lot of capital markets has been

like debt and equity has been allocated

756

to that particular asset class.

757

Is that necessarily a ticket to

success in the way the career

758

model was, or is there a difference

in the way you would see that?

759

Yat Siu: Yeah, there's

some differences here.

760

I mean, Korea was a closed

market to begin with, right?

761

So it was never going to be an

open market in that construct.

762

Whereas what we see with AI and the

general use of AI tools is a global

763

tool right from the beginning, right?

764

So everyone in the world uses it.

765

Obviously the currencies of AI effectively

are sort of compute and energy and

766

compute and energy is something that

is broadly available everywhere, right?

767

Amazing.

768

Basically in terms of physical

facility, where do you have solar?

769

Where do you have nuclear?

770

Where do you have water power?

771

It's not specific to one

location per se, right?

772

So every major nation in the world has

a data center and that could basically

773

provide that facility and then it's

a matter of getting those chips.

774

And again, you know, Nvidia obviously

is a market leader, but you've got

775

a MD, you've got other companies all

creating these incredible chips as well.

776

And as time goes on, right, you're gonna

have much more competition around that.

777

So I don't think it's quite the

same, but I think it's important

778

just like internet infrastructure.

779

Was important before, and still

is of course, but there's basic

780

infrastructure that you can't be

left behind, so it's a bit different.

781

So to me it's not so much, I think

the parallel is more around sort

782

of, everyone needs to have AI

in the sense that, you know, the

783

nations that were having broadband

earlier clearly had a competitive

784

advantage to the nations who did not.

785

Which means that if you're a nation

and you want to become ready for the

786

future, you need to be basically ready

to have AI and you need to basically

787

teach that at the earliest opportunity

as you can, and you need to have

788

infrastructure that can also provide

some form of sovereign AI as well.

789

I think that's important as well, right?

790

Because one of the risks that we

have, which if you look at Europe as

791

an example, Europe has been entirely

digitally colonized by American tech.

792

And so there's basically, Europe

has lost its sovereignty and they

793

haven't really figured that out.

794

I think in many cases,

at least the government.

795

And so how do you maintain that software

entity in some form or fashion is you

796

have to build an infrastructure, be

more innovation friendly on top of that.

797

Of course.

798

Otherwise, you're gonna constantly

be leveraging infrastructure that

799

you have really no control over.

800

And right now the Europe is

grappling with this, whether this

801

is with X or Google or Facebook.

802

It doesn't really matter if they

don't like what you're doing.

803

It's not like Europe

can just shut them off.

804

I mean, they've been trying to,

they, they're imposing fines,

805

but it's not enough, right?

806

Imposing fines is not a way

in which you can manage that.

807

Whereas if the best answer is kind of

what happened in Asia, Korea, China,

808

they have their own tech giants.

809

And so their answer is,

I don't really need you.

810

So it forces a different type

of conversation to be had.

811

So I think that's the

important part, right?

812

And it's the same thing if you were,

were five years behind broadband, then

813

you're economically five years behind.

814

Jemma Green: I mean, what you're

pointing to is that people don't change.

815

Nations don't change

unless there's leverage.

816

And what they've done is actually

figure out what's the important

817

activity or infrastructure that we

need so that we're not reliant and

818

beholden to other nation states.

819

And some of those decisions

are not like quick ones.

820

And they've really thought

about things very strategically

821

to loosen the grip hold.

822

It would be great to hear about

what's on your mind for this year.

823

Yeah.

824

But perhaps as a precursor to

that, I'm sure you get asked this

825

question, tell us about Anka.

826

What is the company?

827

And I know from the questions that I get

asked about that, what if PowerJam kind

828

of constantly evolving that definition.

829

So perhaps you could give us the 2026

definition of ANI moca and, and also

830

what your focus is for this year.

831

Yat Siu: Well, we think of ANI moca

essentially as perhaps the ultimate

832

sort of gateway to the altcoin economy.

833

As anca, we have over

600 portfolio companies.

834

We have a vast sort of portfolio of

Altcoins, and our lens generally is that

835

we believe that altcoins are going to

be collectively larger than Bitcoin.

836

And we also believe that the

whole world's gonna tokenize.

837

And if they're gonna tokenize, it's really

altcoins as in a sense that basically

838

every token that's launched by a company,

be it an RWA, or be it basically a

839

network effect token, or be it a utility

token, whatever that may be, it's all

840

going to be in the realm of the altcoins.

841

And the sort of hypothetical way

to think of this is that Bitcoin is

842

gold, and Altcoins is stock market.

843

And the stock market today is about

128 trillion to golds, 27 trillion.

844

When you add private markets, then

it's about 250 trillion compared

845

to golds 27, 20 8 trillion.

846

So roughly nine to 10 times

given what day you look at.

847

And we think collectively,

all kinds will do the same.

848

And the lens for us is very simple.

849

How do people enter the crypto world?

850

They enter it.

851

Through alt coins.

852

They don't enter it through Bitcoin.

853

And Bitcoin is their piggy bank, right?

854

It's like, ah, I mean it's some money.

855

I'm gonna save it to Bitcoin.

856

However, what do they use?

857

Right?

858

How do they get into the space?

859

They use gas fees from Solana, Ethereum.

860

They use gaming tokens from Sandbox

or Axio Infinity or check, or they use

861

identity tokens from Mocha, or they use

CFI tokens, or they use L one and L two

862

L three tokens, like it doesn't matter.

863

They use these tokens to

enter those ecosystems.

864

And to me it's not that different

from a very crude way to say that's

865

your access pass and your access

pass is no different than back in

866

the early days of the internet.

867

That's your website.

868

So I had to go to Amazon's website.

869

I had to go to eBay's website.

870

I had to go whatever website to log in

and here I need this token to go here.

871

And I did that token to go there.

872

The only difference is, is that that

token is more than an access pass.

873

It represents some form of ownership

or some community construct, some

874

network effect of which there's

a value of my participation.

875

And so it's much more powerful.

876

And so we think the whole

world will tokenize it.

877

If you don't tokenize as a

business, the competitor who will

878

tokenize is gonna eat your lunch.

879

And it's the same for the

early days of the internet.

880

If you were the media company

that didn't go online, you lost

881

to the company that went online.

882

And if you were not the company, if

your competitor went to mobile first.

883

You lost a competitor with Mobile

first, whether it's Amazon,

884

whether it's TikTok, whether it's

Instagram, doesn't matter, right?

885

Whoever adopts technology first

is going to be the one that isn't.

886

So tokenization is kind of inevitable.

887

Nevermind the fact that we also think that

token economies are essentially going to

888

be sort of the asset class of AI agents,

which we believe is gonna be everywhere.

889

So if you want to participate in the world

of Altcoins, you need a way to do that.

890

And we think ANCA is the perfect

gateway for that because most

891

companies are still talking about

their specific projects, which they

892

should, 'cause that's their focus area.

893

However, if you're an investor, and you

know, we announced late last year that

894

we're gonna go public on the NASDAQ

through this reverse merger with Currency

895

group, we then become away in which

regular investors can also essentially

896

participate in the altcoin economy.

897

And I'm not saying that you

couldn't buy Altcoins yourself.

898

Of course you can.

899

However, how do you get into an

index of tokens abroad across the

900

ecosystem that you can also get in

at the earliest of prices, right?

901

That's the other thing.

902

But yes, you can buy tokens

at today's market price.

903

But it'd be better if you had gotten into

them three years ago, or four years ago.

904

Or five years ago.

905

Right.

906

And that's kind of, again, where

we come in because we try to get

907

into these projects early enough

and we have different forms of

908

leverage in which we can basically

get better terms or higher value.

909

And of course, we're an operating

entity that creates revenue as well.

910

And I think of it very similarly to

sort of the early days of the internet

911

back in 2000, 2001, we're not a fund.

912

So if you invest into an moca or

your own stick on an moca, you

913

basically have an index to a,

call it crypto future if you will.

914

And if you believe as we do that, uh,

the earliest Amazons and Facebooks and

915

Googles and Nvidia of the world are all

being shaped around this period of time,

916

then you wouldn't necessarily want to be

selling that within a five or 10 years

917

down the road when the fund cycle expires.

918

It's kinda like saying you invested

in companies like Amazon, Google, and

919

Facebook back in the two thousands

920

your fund was basically unwinding.

921

You would've made money, but you

would've left 90% of the upside as well.

922

So that's basically anca

in a nutshell, right?

923

I mean, some people say we're kind of

like a sort of digital conglomerate.

924

Some people describe us as a

quasi Berkshire Hathaway of

925

crypto, like whatever it is.

926

We're basically accessing essentially

the new economies through to organization

927

and become a window for investors

and end users through Animal Cup.

928

Jemma Green: And I think what you're

saying there is there's a like ongoing

929

perpetual nature to it, and that is

something that is a distinction that you

930

draw between a fund kind of model as well.

931

Yat Siu: Yeah.

932

I actually personally think traditional

fund models are going to have to go away

933

because they don't make as much sense.

934

A lot of the fund models back in the day

basically are now also changing to what

935

they call perpetual funding models, which

basically just means that I can take

936

the profit and reinvest it if I want.

937

Jemma Green: Mm-hmm.

938

Yat Siu: As opposed to paying it out

to investors because the nature of

939

capital and the opportunity spectrum

doesn't work quite the same way where

940

you have a five or seven or eight year

fund cycle and you need that flexibility

941

and the dynamism to be able to sort

of move the capital as you need.

942

But the other reason why we're doing this

as a public company is because the whole

943

mission, we, as we believe for crypto, is

around essentially sort of democratization

944

of access of these opportunities and we

can't issue a token along those lines.

945

But if you bought our equity in a public

market when we're trading as a publicly

946

listed entity, then your regular retail

investor would have that opportunity.

947

Whereas you don't get a chance for most

people except the really wealthy and

948

privileged to invest in, you know, the A

16 Zs or the Kleiner Perkins or sort of

949

Draper Fisher type funds in the world,

you know, KKR or whatever you wanna call

950

it, you don't have an opportunity to do

that 'cause you just don't have the money.

951

And so for we as a operating

entity that's going to be trading

952

publicly, that's one way for them

to participate if they wanted to.

953

And of course the benefit is that

if they don't believe in it or they

954

kinda like bearish on altcoins,

they can also trade out of it.

955

Right?

956

So it's much more efficient.

957

And I actually think most funds maybe

through a purely tokenized structure,

958

not necessarily public listed structure,

are going to probably operate in

959

this fashion because investors

don't necessarily want to have the

960

capital locked for eight to 10 years.

961

Right?

962

That's a model that made

sense back in the day.

963

What makes less and less sense these days?

964

Jemma Green: Yeah, so if I understand

correctly with what's gonna unfold

965

with the NASDAQ listing at, at reverse

takeover, and congratulations by the

966

way on that, it's very exciting is

that you're gonna provide like a retail

967

OnRamp and off ramp and liquidity for

people that wanna get earlier exposure

968

to some of these, this asset class.

969

And it sounds therefore that you are

very focused on the earliest stage

970

investment around these companies as well.

971

So to make 600 investments, you

must have quite a few staff and

972

have looked at a lot of companies

and said no to a lot of companies.

973

Tell us a little bit about the machine.

974

Yat Siu: The way that the ANCA

machine works is we obviously have the

975

investment arm, and as an operating

group we're around 700 people or so.

976

So it's down from actually

over a thousand at one point,

977

you know, but at peak, right?

978

So obviously everyone had to sort of

rightsize a little bit, but really the

979

way that it works is that we try to create

the best leverage to have essentially

980

the best unit economics on these altcoins

that we can basically sort of put on our

981

balance sheet, and then outside of helping

them and earning fees and so forth.

982

What actually happens is, is that

because of we have a trading team, we

983

have the ability to basically start

generating yield from these assets.

984

And so because we're sitting on a

balance sheet that is quite sizable,

985

we can then basically generate nine

figure revenues that then basically

986

provides an EBITDA and also a profit

line so that we're basically able to

987

sort of keep reinvesting that capital.

988

This is a bit different from your

traditional investor because a traditional

989

investor charges a fee for the management.

990

Uh, we don't do that because

the asset is typically liquid.

991

We have the ability to generate yield

from those assets over the course of

992

our investment, and so as a result, we

can then basically generate an income

993

from that, which then pays for the

bills as well as essentially provide

994

profits and margins in which again,

then basically make these reinvestments.

995

But of course beyond investing,

we also incubate projects

996

that we think are necessary.

997

So we have a joint venture with

Standard Charter called Anchor Point.

998

Uh, in Hong Kong.

999

We have Hong Telecom, we have

partnership with Prov Labs, a

00:48:52,555 --> 00:48:54,145

RWA marketplace called nuva.

00:48:54,625 --> 00:48:57,475

We incubated things like open

campus, which is basically are the

00:48:57,505 --> 00:49:01,075

education, blockchain and also MO

averse, which is a digital identity.

00:49:01,195 --> 00:49:03,895

And then we also look at

things that we think have a

00:49:03,895 --> 00:49:05,125

lot of mass adoption potential.

00:49:05,125 --> 00:49:08,035

So things like sort of Annie

Chess, which is essentially

00:49:08,425 --> 00:49:10,015

partnership between chess.com

00:49:10,015 --> 00:49:14,515

and Magnus Carlson, in fact, who

basically helps launch a platform that

00:49:14,515 --> 00:49:19,015

is essentially a, let's call it crypto

chess, if you will, of some sort, although

00:49:19,195 --> 00:49:24,055

it's not seen as crypto chess to the end

user and trying to bring one sort of good

00:49:24,055 --> 00:49:27,175

portion of the 600 million chess players

in the world on chain, for example.

00:49:27,175 --> 00:49:27,355

Right?

00:49:27,715 --> 00:49:30,595

So those are projects that we would

basically incubate from the ground up.

00:49:30,740 --> 00:49:33,980

If we think nobody else is doing it,

and to help basically bring more people

00:49:33,980 --> 00:49:37,460

on chain, because of course it's more

people are on chain, then of course it

00:49:37,460 --> 00:49:40,670

is more opportunity for us, more user

growth, you know, more revenue, more

00:49:40,670 --> 00:49:41,750

income, all that kind of stuff, right?

00:49:42,170 --> 00:49:45,980

So we're more of an operating entity

in that sense, but we have this sort of

00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,480

asset accumulation strategy that's part

of the operating entity that essentially

00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,500

makes it a very suitable index of these

type of assets that we believe are going

00:49:54,500 --> 00:49:55,714

to be amongst the biggest in the world.

00:49:56,625 --> 00:49:59,355

Jemma Green: Yeah, so you've created a

new commercial model and business model

00:49:59,355 --> 00:50:03,435

distinct from the fund model, which

is very fee based as well as returns.

00:50:03,435 --> 00:50:07,635

I mean, a lot of it is the two and

20 model and raising capital, and

00:50:07,635 --> 00:50:10,755

there's not always enough money in

the ecosystem to invest in that.

00:50:10,755 --> 00:50:11,895

And they put a lot of bets on.

00:50:11,895 --> 00:50:15,285

And I think that model is very

broken, not least for that reason.

00:50:15,285 --> 00:50:18,945

So I think you've created less

reliance on that and you're an

00:50:18,945 --> 00:50:22,125

ecosystem builder and that can,

you know, be a cliche thing to say.

00:50:22,305 --> 00:50:24,735

Lots of VCs would say that

they're building the ecosystem.

00:50:24,735 --> 00:50:27,795

But what I'm hearing and what you're

saying is that there's a lot that you're

00:50:27,795 --> 00:50:31,185

doing in that and it's actually a very

meaningful part of your activities.

00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,200

Yat Siu: The meaningful part, and

also it allows us to be long term.

00:50:34,500 --> 00:50:37,890

So if you're a fund, you're kind of

obligated because of the fund cycle

00:50:37,890 --> 00:50:41,100

and frankly because of the mandates,

you have to take some specific

00:50:41,100 --> 00:50:43,770

views as to when you liquidate,

even if it's not the right timing.

00:50:44,250 --> 00:50:46,980

What are the interesting things that

you see in a classical venture Capital

00:50:46,980 --> 00:50:49,260

world is what they call secondary funds.

00:50:49,410 --> 00:50:53,820

And secondary funds exist because primary

funds are running out of their time cycles

00:50:54,060 --> 00:50:57,090

and they're like, I'm forced to sell,

but I happen to have this great position

00:50:57,090 --> 00:51:00,870

in open AI or whatever, this hot company

that's out there, but I have no choice.

00:51:00,870 --> 00:51:01,560

I have to liquidate.

00:51:01,860 --> 00:51:04,800

So the secondary guys come in, you

know, give them some upside, but

00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,800

essentially take most of that because

they provide ability to do this.

00:51:08,070 --> 00:51:08,310

Right?

00:51:08,310 --> 00:51:09,660

We don't have that situation.

00:51:09,660 --> 00:51:11,820

If we believe in something long

term, we can just hold it on a

00:51:11,820 --> 00:51:12,840

balance sheet and keep going.

00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:13,050

Right?

00:51:13,260 --> 00:51:16,200

As opposed to being forced to sell

perhaps the wrong timing just because the

00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:17,790

market's wrong or whatever that may be.

00:51:17,790 --> 00:51:18,030

Right.

00:51:18,450 --> 00:51:19,890

So it's that sort of one example.

00:51:19,890 --> 00:51:22,830

But the other thing, and I think

this is more and more the case, is

00:51:22,830 --> 00:51:26,130

that I think it's hard in a world

where everyone can be an investor.

00:51:26,375 --> 00:51:27,935

Then how do you distinguish

yourself, really?

00:51:28,265 --> 00:51:31,535

And that means how do you add

value to the projects and the sort

00:51:31,535 --> 00:51:32,615

of things that you're building?

00:51:33,095 --> 00:51:36,875

Also, I don't think you can be a very

effective investor or participant

00:51:36,875 --> 00:51:39,185

in the ecosystem if you're not

actually building yourself.

00:51:39,425 --> 00:51:41,195

'cause then that means you're

kind of away from things, right?

00:51:41,465 --> 00:51:43,295

I'm not saying it's easy to give money.

00:51:43,295 --> 00:51:45,095

I mean, there's a

discipline involved in that.

00:51:45,605 --> 00:51:48,785

But one of the reasons why many of

the most successful VCs out there

00:51:48,875 --> 00:51:51,875

used to be entrepreneurs or builders

themselves, is because they get it.

00:51:52,085 --> 00:51:54,935

And in a way, if you have an organization

that's structured around that, that can

00:51:54,935 --> 00:51:58,565

actually really sort of go end to end, I

think that's actually even more powerful.

00:51:59,015 --> 00:52:03,065

And I think also what crypto is

illustrating even more, and the example

00:52:03,065 --> 00:52:06,095

we talked earlier about Silicon Valley,

where basically everyone's an investor.

00:52:06,275 --> 00:52:09,785

Part of the superpower of what makes

Silicon Valley so strong is that every

00:52:09,785 --> 00:52:13,625

person left and right is able to invest

in your project and has some idea about

00:52:13,625 --> 00:52:15,095

it, even if they're not experts at it.

00:52:15,095 --> 00:52:15,305

Right?

00:52:15,725 --> 00:52:18,095

And that's where the world is

going, especially with crypto.

00:52:18,125 --> 00:52:21,485

Like think about everyone in crypto

essentially isn't an investor,

00:52:21,545 --> 00:52:22,565

whether they like it or not.

00:52:23,134 --> 00:52:24,395

You know, there's no such thing as a.

00:52:24,895 --> 00:52:27,115

Well, maybe there might be

some exceptions, but generally

00:52:27,115 --> 00:52:31,195

speaking, there's no such thing

as a non-capitalist crypto guy.

00:52:31,855 --> 00:52:32,155

Right?

00:52:32,575 --> 00:52:37,075

So that means investing is the next thing

that's being mass amateurize, right?

00:52:37,075 --> 00:52:39,175

And that means that every person

in the world is an investor.

00:52:39,355 --> 00:52:41,875

And so how do you distinguish between

essentially someone who can add

00:52:41,875 --> 00:52:44,845

more value, is willing therefore

to give better terms for that.

00:52:45,205 --> 00:52:47,515

And that's kind of how we see

the role that animal could play.

00:52:48,205 --> 00:52:48,445

Jemma Green: Yeah.

00:52:48,445 --> 00:52:52,435

And now anyone on their phone can invest

and also take leverage positions and it

00:52:52,435 --> 00:52:57,205

kind of veers into a world of gambling

as well as just a mass on ramping and

00:52:57,205 --> 00:52:59,515

democratization of this asset class.

00:52:59,965 --> 00:53:04,075

Do you think about massive inflows

of capital that are happening in

00:53:04,075 --> 00:53:07,945

asset classes that perhaps things are

overvalued and like how do you think

00:53:07,945 --> 00:53:11,995

sort of in macro terms about what's

going on in the markets right now?

00:53:12,525 --> 00:53:16,545

Yat Siu: Well, okay, so we're only

focusing, obviously in our sector on

00:53:16,545 --> 00:53:21,135

digital assets, crypto Web3, but of

course we get heavily impacted by macro.

00:53:21,465 --> 00:53:23,355

And the macro in and of itself.

00:53:23,355 --> 00:53:24,585

I mean, there's the Trump factor.

00:53:24,705 --> 00:53:25,605

It's always a factor.

00:53:26,055 --> 00:53:29,805

I actually think the fact that the

markets themselves currently stock

00:53:29,805 --> 00:53:32,775

market, gold, silver, all of these

things are doing incredibly well.

00:53:33,255 --> 00:53:37,005

Typically speaking, we can expect a

kind of recycling of capital as well.

00:53:37,515 --> 00:53:42,435

So it's gonna basically go through, let's

call it the alternative asset class, and

00:53:42,585 --> 00:53:44,535

crypto is the alternative asset class.

00:53:44,535 --> 00:53:46,455

So I do think 26 will be a strong year.

00:53:46,455 --> 00:53:47,985

There's some people who think otherwise.

00:53:48,135 --> 00:53:51,015

I understand that, but I also think

of the thematic as this year for

00:53:51,015 --> 00:53:51,945

our industry as being deferred.

00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,560

So all the things that we thought would

happen and have a positive impact for

00:53:55,560 --> 00:54:00,180

us in 25 are going to have more of a

positive impact in 26 just because of

00:54:00,180 --> 00:54:03,029

all the factors and 'cause we have to

get all the tar force out of the way.

00:54:03,029 --> 00:54:05,700

And because we had to get all the

disagreements with the Fed out

00:54:05,700 --> 00:54:06,990

of the way and so forth, right?

00:54:07,350 --> 00:54:10,320

And so now more and more of these

things are becoming more steady and

00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,230

more stable and more predictable,

shall we say, in some sense.

00:54:13,259 --> 00:54:14,580

So I think that's all positive.

00:54:14,790 --> 00:54:16,800

So we're generally very

sort of bullish around that.

00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,470

And then of course, the general

opportunity space of when clarity comes

00:54:19,470 --> 00:54:22,890

out, which we think is an inevitability,

but it will happen probably.

00:54:23,205 --> 00:54:27,135

Sometime in the first half of this

year, which means that essentially

00:54:27,165 --> 00:54:31,755

there's gonna be a blueprint as to

what can tokenize under the CFCC be

00:54:31,755 --> 00:54:33,075

considered security, what is not.

00:54:33,285 --> 00:54:36,375

And that we think, just like when

the Genius Act passed is going to

00:54:36,375 --> 00:54:39,375

open the floodgates for companies big

and small to say, I'm gonna tokenize

00:54:39,375 --> 00:54:43,425

now because they don't have the

legal risks as they would've had if

00:54:43,425 --> 00:54:44,895

there was experimenting around that.

00:54:45,255 --> 00:54:47,595

I also think it's gonna be pretty

bad for all the lawyers that were

00:54:47,595 --> 00:54:51,165

making so much money on the arbitrage,

basically, you know, telling people

00:54:51,405 --> 00:54:54,345

around, we can make sure that you're

okay, when in fact they couldn't.

00:54:54,915 --> 00:54:55,125

Right.

00:54:55,125 --> 00:54:56,355

That's kind of part of the problem.

00:54:56,355 --> 00:54:56,595

Right?

00:54:56,925 --> 00:55:01,155

But also that lowers the barrier of that

cost because you know, if you wanted

00:55:01,155 --> 00:55:04,755

to launch a token, you had to have a

funny foundation somewhere in the world.

00:55:05,265 --> 00:55:08,085

You had to hire several

lawyers, both from.

00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:12,470

Wherever the jurisdiction was offshore

and the country that you're in, you had

00:55:12,470 --> 00:55:15,440

to get legal opinions about it being a

security, all that kinda stuff, right?

00:55:15,445 --> 00:55:15,635

Mm-hmm.

00:55:15,860 --> 00:55:20,060

And so the ability to launch a token

in, let's call it the appropriate legal

00:55:20,060 --> 00:55:24,920

framing, was so prohibitively expensive

that it just doesn't even go there, right?

00:55:25,310 --> 00:55:28,400

And again, when citizen law then, you

know, it's not to say they won't be

00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,940

expenses, but they're predictable,

they're clear, and it allows basically

00:55:31,940 --> 00:55:34,940

people to really invest in that

because you've set the rules around it.

00:55:34,940 --> 00:55:38,900

And to the earlier question around

how do governments assist in building

00:55:38,900 --> 00:55:43,040

ecosystems and promoting innovation,

it's these type of rails, right?

00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:44,990

So they're not building

them for us per se.

00:55:45,110 --> 00:55:46,190

They're saying these are the rules.

00:55:46,580 --> 00:55:50,840

And once we know what the rules are,

then you can play around the edges and

00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,720

boundaries of these rules because you

know what's allowed and what's not.

00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,450

It's when you don't have these

rules where, where the trouble

00:55:56,450 --> 00:56:00,110

often begins because people don't

know or sometimes take advantage of

00:56:00,110 --> 00:56:01,370

the fact that there are no rules.

00:56:01,779 --> 00:56:04,779

Jemma Green: I mean, power ledger

moved from Australia to Switzerland two

00:56:04,779 --> 00:56:07,330

years ago, and I moved myself as well.

00:56:07,330 --> 00:56:11,470

And like the regulatory clarity was

a big piece of the appeal and the

00:56:11,470 --> 00:56:15,490

murkiness of, you know, under the

Biden administration in Australia.

00:56:15,490 --> 00:56:20,290

I think that was just making it very hard

to make very big strategic decisions.

00:56:21,060 --> 00:56:24,120

Yat Siu: I mean, Australia has its own

stories around crypto back in the day.

00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:28,170

I mean, we were listed on the A SX

and were unceremoniously de-listed

00:56:28,170 --> 00:56:31,710

for primarily our activities

in crypto back in the day.

00:56:31,710 --> 00:56:32,040

So

00:56:32,430 --> 00:56:34,440

Jemma Green: we've got

our own war stories.

00:56:34,740 --> 00:56:37,890

I wanted to move from macro

just to micro for a minute.

00:56:38,220 --> 00:56:43,290

Micro strategy or strategy, I think

as it's now called, has been copied by

00:56:43,290 --> 00:56:46,109

lots of companies that's proliferated.

00:56:46,109 --> 00:56:46,200

Yes.

00:56:46,529 --> 00:56:47,400

00:56:47,819 --> 00:56:50,370

Have there been, and are

there many companies that are

00:56:50,370 --> 00:56:52,620

copying the ANI moca model or.

00:56:52,910 --> 00:56:56,930

Is it too early for these kind of

sort of shadow effects or secondary

00:56:56,930 --> 00:57:01,250

or tertiary effects of this new

model to start to emerge elsewhere?

00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,880

Yat Siu: I don't think we've seen a lot

of copycats for Anna moca, but I think

00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,700

part of the reason is because most people

don't know what an moca really does.

00:57:08,420 --> 00:57:11,060

When people say Anna moca, and they

haven't really studied us, they

00:57:11,090 --> 00:57:14,180

think Web3 gaming and NFTs, which

is still a part of what we do.

00:57:14,540 --> 00:57:16,940

However, it is not the

primary thing that we do.

00:57:16,940 --> 00:57:18,080

I mean, the way that it was before.

00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:22,160

Right, and just for the record, we

remain very, very bullish on blockchain

00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:26,450

gaming, but I think one of the things

that we've come to realize that when we