In his third appearance on Macro N Cheese, Dan Kovalik talks with Steve about his upcoming book, The Case for Palestine: Why It Matters and Why You Should Care. As with many of our guests, the episode is more of a conversation – a passionate one – than an interview.

“First of all ... this conflict did not begin on October 7th, though we're led to believe it did. This conflict – well, it depends on when you want to say it started – but certainly a good starting place is 1948 in the Nakba, when 700,000 to 900,000 Palestinians were violently displaced by Israelis who came in to take over their land and their homes. And the takeover of land and homes has continued since that time.

Gaza itself has been penned in with a giant fence since about 2007 in what some refer to as the largest open-air prison in the world. Others call it the biggest concentration camp in the world — where Israel has regulated the water they get, the food they get. And they've kept all those things, intentionally, to a minimum.”

They both argue that the violence of the oppressor (Israel) cannot be equated with the violence of the oppressed. Any resistance against oppression is justified.

While condemning the Zionist government of Israel, they stress the culpability of the US government. They discuss the lack of difference between Democratic and Republican presidents in terms of their foreign policies, particularly on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

In a conversation about current American and international politics, Dan and Steve agree on a number of things, including the need for disruptive targeted protests in addition to sustained movements, a long-term commitment to resistance, and international solidarity.

Where they disagree, however, is on the matter of so-called taxpayer money. As always, Steve makes sure to correct the record. Several times.

Dan Kovalik is a labor and human rights lawyer and peace activist. He is the author of several books, including The Plot to Scapegoat Russia, Nicaragua: A History of US Intervention and Resistance, and the upcoming The Case for Palestine: Why It Matters and Why You Should Care.

@danielmkovalik on Twitter