Shownotes
Critical Mess to Critical Mass: democratic innovation for collective climate action
“The climate crisis and the crisis of democracy are two sides of the same coin. You cannot imagine any kind of vision of a desirable future that doesn't entail both environmental and democratic repair going together.”
“The main problem is that politicians and institutions are not trusting people. [So we are] missing the collective intelligence, the capacity that could be unlocked, [by] mobilising, larger networks and groups of people for collective action.”
Join me as I interview Professor Oliver Escobar, Professor of Public Policy and Democratic Innovation, at the University of Edinburgh as he talks about his experience as a deeply engaged academic and how we can all work together to shift from being in a critical mess to creating a critical mass for meaningful change.
You will discover:
- How good people inside dysfunctional institutions are keen to change things;
- Why climate assemblies are unexpectedly radical;
- How politicians will get more done when they share power; and much more.
I’m joined later in the episode by co-host Morag Watson and Dr Marian Bruce of Bioregioning Tayside to reflect on Oliver’s ideas and insights, and draw out practical lessons that could help changemakers in our work for people and nature in the polycrisis, including:
- The absolute importance of building trust in and across communities, organisations and institutions;
- The power of starting ongoing processes, instead of time limited projects;
- The power of working at scales where people know each other and can work together collectively.
Thrivable Scotland is the podcast for, by and about changemakers working for people and nature. We ask how can we build resilience, regenerate natural systems and cultivate collective wellbeing, so people and the rest of nature can thrive, right now and whatever the polycrisis brings next. We explore what’s working, why it’s working and how it could help you in your work.
Connect:
- Guest: Prof Oliver Escobar
- Guest Listener: Dr Marian Bruce
- Co-host: Morag Watson
- Host, me, Osbert Lancaster (LinkedIn, Bluesky)
Find organisations and resources mentioned in this episode, plus further links to explore, in our collection on Semble.
Transcripts
To me, the climate crisis and the crisis of democracy
2
00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:04,885
are two sides of the same coin.
3
00:00:05,428 --> 00:00:09,747
You cannot imagine any kind of
vision of a desirable future that
4
00:00:09,747 --> 00:00:14,637
doesn't entail both environmental
and democratic repair going together.
5
00:00:14,697 --> 00:00:19,486
In a lot of, media conversations about
politics and even in a lot of research,
6
00:00:19,603 --> 00:00:25,429
one of the points that gets made is that,
people don't trust politicians, people are
7
00:00:25,429 --> 00:00:28,769
increasingly, distrustful of institutions.
8
00:00:29,189 --> 00:00:31,949
But actually, I don't think
that that's the main problem.
9
00:00:31,949 --> 00:00:33,389
I think it goes the other way around.
10
00:00:33,439 --> 00:00:36,109
I think the main problem is that
politicians and institutions
11
00:00:36,109 --> 00:00:37,334
are not trusting people.
12
00:00:37,510 --> 00:00:41,960
And if you don't have institutions
and formal power holders and leaders
13
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,338
who trust people, then you're in
trouble because you're gonna build
14
00:00:45,338 --> 00:00:51,488
a system that keeps people away from
decision making and power spaces.
15
00:00:51,638 --> 00:00:55,118
And once you do that, you're
missing the collective intelligence
16
00:00:55,118 --> 00:00:56,258
that you need to mobilise.
17
00:00:56,438 --> 00:01:00,683
You're missing the resources, the
capacity that could be unlocked, if you
18
00:01:00,683 --> 00:01:05,135
were mobilising, larger networks and
groups of people for collective action,
19
00:01:05,465 --> 00:01:10,146
and once you lose that, you're absolutely
doomed because you are forever locked into
20
00:01:10,146 --> 00:01:12,846
a system that undermines its own future.
21
00:01:13,896 --> 00:01:14,316
Hi there.
22
00:01:14,526 --> 00:01:17,946
I'm Osbert Lancaster, and you're
listening to Thrivable Scotland, the
23
00:01:17,946 --> 00:01:22,386
podcast for change makers, working for
people and nature in the poly crisis.
24
00:01:23,015 --> 00:01:26,946
That was Oliver Escobar, professor of
Public Policy and Democratic Innovation
25
00:01:27,156 --> 00:01:28,446
at the University of Edinburgh.
26
00:01:29,456 --> 00:01:32,846
When I was recording this, I got a bit
worried as Oliver launched off into
27
00:01:32,846 --> 00:01:36,866
historical theories of democracy, but
it was actually so relevant to what
28
00:01:36,866 --> 00:01:39,686
is happening today, and it really
set the scene for the rest of the
29
00:01:39,686 --> 00:01:43,826
conversation when Oliver got stuck
into the practical stuff like building
30
00:01:43,826 --> 00:01:47,936
alliances with burnt out public
servants, why climate assemblies are
31
00:01:47,936 --> 00:01:54,176
unexpectedly radical, and how sharing
power gets things done and much more.
32
00:01:54,956 --> 00:01:55,916
Let's get started.
33
00:01:56,216 --> 00:01:59,846
Come and join me in Oliver for a walk
around the meadows near his office
34
00:01:59,846 --> 00:02:01,136
at the University of Edinburgh.
35
00:02:02,060 --> 00:02:06,420
Oliver Escobar: I guess my main area
of work is democracy and the state of
36
00:02:06,420 --> 00:02:08,259
democracy and the future of democracy.
37
00:02:08,644 --> 00:02:15,484
So I've done a lot of work on the
practical side, processes, practitioners,
38
00:02:15,904 --> 00:02:18,857
practises in communities and institutions.
39
00:02:19,564 --> 00:02:24,777
Then I have a strand of work on political
economy, which is about understanding
40
00:02:24,777 --> 00:02:29,637
that democratic life is underpinned
by both political and economic life.
41
00:02:29,807 --> 00:02:33,741
Another big part has been the
field of democratic innovations,
42
00:02:34,386 --> 00:02:38,802
democratic innovations are new
civic institutions or processes, for
43
00:02:38,802 --> 00:02:41,352
example, like, climate assemblies.
44
00:02:41,457 --> 00:02:43,466
Osbert: Yeah, I was thinking the climate
assemblies is one of the things you're
45
00:02:43,466 --> 00:02:45,237
probably most well known for in Scotland.
46
00:02:45,281 --> 00:02:45,521
Oliver Escobar: Yeah.
47
00:02:45,521 --> 00:02:49,231
I've been quite involved in that,
participatory budgeting as well,
48
00:02:49,661 --> 00:02:56,421
community anchor organisations, digital,
kind of participation processes, new
49
00:02:56,421 --> 00:03:01,071
kind of digitally enabled collective
intelligence, kind of systems for
50
00:03:01,071 --> 00:03:02,691
communities, for institutions.
51
00:03:03,501 --> 00:03:06,291
So democratic innovations is a really
large field, of all these kind of
52
00:03:06,291 --> 00:03:11,009
processes and institutions that are
trying to create a new institutional
53
00:03:11,511 --> 00:03:17,234
landscape to translate, public
participation into collective action.
54
00:03:17,753 --> 00:03:21,311
I'm interested, not just in the theory of
these things, but in the practise and I've
55
00:03:21,311 --> 00:03:26,846
been a facilitator and process designer
and mediator in, in a number of processes
56
00:03:26,846 --> 00:03:32,713
over the years, lately a little bit,
less hands on because I have a very small
57
00:03:33,192 --> 00:03:35,947
daughter and just keeping me very busy.
58
00:03:36,339 --> 00:03:38,553
Osbert: So in all that stuff
you're doing, there's five, seven
59
00:03:38,553 --> 00:03:40,803
different conversations we could
have, each could be a podcast
60
00:03:40,803 --> 00:03:41,973
episode, but we're not gonna do that.
61
00:03:42,393 --> 00:03:46,833
But I'd like to do that is to maybe focus
in on this idea of democratic repair.
62
00:03:46,893 --> 00:03:50,373
I think one of the things that,
you know, with this idea the
63
00:03:50,383 --> 00:03:53,993
Thrivable Scotland, what we need
to have, a thrivable Scotland.
64
00:03:53,993 --> 00:03:57,477
a Scotland where people and nature
can thrive, whatever happens
65
00:03:57,477 --> 00:04:00,767
with the polycrisis I suspect
we need to be doing three things.
66
00:04:00,767 --> 00:04:02,387
We need to be building resilience.
67
00:04:02,942 --> 00:04:08,631
We need to be, regenerating natural
systems locally and globally.
68
00:04:09,171 --> 00:04:13,281
And I've, I've not quite found the
right language, but I've been thinking
69
00:04:13,281 --> 00:04:14,851
it's something about healing society.
70
00:04:15,181 --> 00:04:19,297
'cause we all in this perception that
a lot of the society is broken but
71
00:04:19,297 --> 00:04:21,951
there's actually a lot of research,
which to me says, well it's not
72
00:04:21,981 --> 00:04:23,451
nearly as broken as we think it is.
73
00:04:23,451 --> 00:04:25,611
And that's perhaps that
that is part of the problem.
74
00:04:26,077 --> 00:04:30,811
And also, a slight worry, I suppose with
the idea of talking about healing society
75
00:04:30,841 --> 00:04:34,681
is that there's, there's some sort of
ideal society we could heal and get back
76
00:04:34,681 --> 00:04:36,407
to, I'm not sure there ever has been.
77
00:04:37,157 --> 00:04:41,284
So maybe your professorship of public
policy and democratic innovation, suggests
78
00:04:41,284 --> 00:04:45,293
there are new ways of doing things rather
than perhaps, healing and repair suggests,
79
00:04:46,143 --> 00:04:47,283
where do, where do you sit on that?
80
00:04:47,283 --> 00:04:49,053
Is that, is it, is it broken?
81
00:04:49,428 --> 00:04:53,403
Oliver Escobar: I guess the
first thing to say is to do with
82
00:04:53,403 --> 00:04:54,813
how we understand democracy.
83
00:04:54,933 --> 00:04:59,453
Because you know, if you take, the
kind of view that comes from the
84
00:04:59,453 --> 00:05:03,930
political science I studied in the late
nineties, in my faculty in Santiago di
85
00:05:03,950 --> 00:05:08,853
Compostela, in Galicia, in the northwest
of Spain, then it's a traditional
86
00:05:08,853 --> 00:05:13,293
view of political science, democracy's
a set of institutions and legal
87
00:05:13,293 --> 00:05:21,033
frameworks and party political systems
and public administration structures.
88
00:05:21,663 --> 00:05:27,287
And that is the kind of mainstream
understanding of democracy that we
89
00:05:27,287 --> 00:05:31,727
inherited after the Second World
War, it's the version of democracy
90
00:05:31,727 --> 00:05:36,767
that won, not necessarily the popular
imagination, but certainly the mainstream,
91
00:05:36,889 --> 00:05:39,264
public mediatised, imagination.
92
00:05:39,564 --> 00:05:41,804
And there are reasons
for why that version won.
93
00:05:41,964 --> 00:05:43,314
But there were other versions.
94
00:05:43,854 --> 00:05:47,994
We could go back to the 1920s, we
could go back to previous centuries.
95
00:05:48,174 --> 00:05:51,174
We actually, we wanted to tell a
proper history of democracy, we'll
96
00:05:51,174 --> 00:05:54,239
have to go back 5,000 years, but
probably we don't want do that.
97
00:05:55,134 --> 00:05:59,574
But before the second World War,
there was already a, a vision of a
98
00:05:59,604 --> 00:06:03,774
participatory democracy ,that is built
on a participatory society, that is
99
00:06:03,774 --> 00:06:05,514
built on a participatory economy.
100
00:06:05,724 --> 00:06:06,984
These things were already there.
101
00:06:08,229 --> 00:06:09,229
Osbert: For instance, tell me.
102
00:06:09,759 --> 00:06:14,261
Oliver Escobar: So for example,
Mary Parker Follett for example, an
103
00:06:14,261 --> 00:06:21,131
organisational researcher, she published
a, a really, important book in 1920,
104
00:06:21,971 --> 00:06:27,806
which was about different ways of
organising institutions, organisations,
105
00:06:27,806 --> 00:06:30,566
and companies in more participatory ways.
106
00:06:30,846 --> 00:06:35,676
So there were people like John
Dewey, American pragmatist, educator
107
00:06:35,676 --> 00:06:39,359
and philosopher, who again, is one
of the key voices in the sort of
108
00:06:39,419 --> 00:06:41,349
participatory democratic canon.
109
00:06:41,671 --> 00:06:47,231
His philosophy of pragmatism in
the best sense of the word was
110
00:06:47,231 --> 00:06:49,391
about democracy as a living system.
111
00:06:49,421 --> 00:06:54,581
He has this, this way of thinking about
democracy that up to today participatory
112
00:06:54,581 --> 00:06:59,501
democrats tend to refer to, which is: when
we understand democracy as a way of life,
113
00:07:00,131 --> 00:07:05,141
not something that only happens in certain
spaces or institutions, but something that
114
00:07:05,141 --> 00:07:11,761
should permeate our relationships, the way
we, the way we live in our neighbourhoods,
115
00:07:11,791 --> 00:07:17,671
the way we interact in our workplaces,
the way we build institutions at the
116
00:07:17,671 --> 00:07:22,201
local, regional, national, transnational
level, the way we relate to each
117
00:07:22,201 --> 00:07:25,051
other, even in familial relationships.
118
00:07:25,471 --> 00:07:30,931
And it's a question about, how do
we build ways of being that are more
119
00:07:30,931 --> 00:07:38,221
egalitarian and based on co-creation,
co-production, co-governance, … So
120
00:07:38,731 --> 00:07:42,728
democracy is a way of life, it's just a
way of looking at things, that says that
121
00:07:42,728 --> 00:07:44,698
democracy lives in everyday relationships.
122
00:07:44,968 --> 00:07:49,378
Not just in the systems that we, we then
built to translate those relationships
123
00:07:49,438 --> 00:07:51,328
into policy or collective action.
124
00:07:52,338 --> 00:07:54,298
Osbert: But generally it seems
to me, when we do think about
125
00:07:54,298 --> 00:07:57,688
democracy, we probably we're
thinking, oh, it's about elections.
126
00:07:57,788 --> 00:08:01,268
And depending on our level of policy
nerdness, we get excited or our
127
00:08:01,268 --> 00:08:02,438
heart sink at the thought of it.
128
00:08:03,070 --> 00:08:06,130
Oliver Escobar: That question keeps
us in the 1920s because there was a
129
00:08:06,130 --> 00:08:10,203
really important debate then, the most
famous figureheads for that debate were
130
00:08:10,203 --> 00:08:16,323
John Dewey and, Walter Lippmann, and
there's a very famous debate, around
131
00:08:16,323 --> 00:08:20,461
this, a very public debate, because
Lipman and then others like Schumpeter
132
00:08:20,461 --> 00:08:23,956
and others put forward a vision of
democracy that was elite driven.
133
00:08:24,762 --> 00:08:27,181
Their view was that you,
you cannot trust people.
134
00:08:27,631 --> 00:08:32,184
The best you can trust them with is that
they will be able to choose good leaders.
135
00:08:32,941 --> 00:08:36,390
So we trust them to do that, and then
they should leave the business of
136
00:08:36,390 --> 00:08:39,900
governing to the elites that we choose.
137
00:08:40,051 --> 00:08:45,781
And that became that, that was considered
the only workable form of democracy
138
00:08:45,781 --> 00:08:47,992
for large scale mass societies.
139
00:08:49,096 --> 00:08:53,727
Now, on the other side of the debate
was Dewey who said, well, democracy
140
00:08:53,997 --> 00:08:58,167
has to live in everyday relationships,
has to live in working relationships,
141
00:08:58,167 --> 00:09:02,607
it has to live in the way we build
our economies, our schools, our
142
00:09:02,607 --> 00:09:05,637
neighbourhoods, our, our broader systems.
143
00:09:06,027 --> 00:09:10,707
Unless that happens, democracy is not
secure because it's seen as something that
144
00:09:10,707 --> 00:09:15,087
others do for us rather than something
that is part of the fabric of society.
145
00:09:15,507 --> 00:09:20,654
And he wrote about this in the thirties
as totalitarianism, including in my own
146
00:09:20,654 --> 00:09:26,474
country in Spain, where authoritarian
leaders and fascists, and dictatorships
147
00:09:26,474 --> 00:09:29,434
of all kinds were, kind of taking over.
148
00:09:29,784 --> 00:09:33,964
So he was giving a very clear
warning: If democracy is an elite
149
00:09:33,964 --> 00:09:38,704
driven business, then we are in
trouble because it won't survive.
150
00:09:38,734 --> 00:09:43,074
Because all you need to do is to take
the head off and put a new head in
151
00:09:43,104 --> 00:09:44,464
and you can transform the system.
152
00:09:44,554 --> 00:09:48,829
If democracy lives from the bottom
up in everyday relationships in our
153
00:09:48,844 --> 00:09:52,864
communities, and then that translates
into the way we build institutions,
154
00:09:53,134 --> 00:09:57,094
then you have a different type
of that is much more resilient.
155
00:09:57,264 --> 00:10:01,314
And to me, that's where we get to
the point of democratic repair.
156
00:10:01,319 --> 00:10:01,339
Right?
157
00:10:01,404 --> 00:10:01,674
Right.
158
00:10:01,674 --> 00:10:05,274
What does it mean to do democratic repair
in the context we find ourselves in?
159
00:10:06,444 --> 00:10:10,224
'cause on the one hand, there is a repair
of our existing institutions, so that's
160
00:10:10,224 --> 00:10:16,164
an important part, they, they, they
definitely need repair and they know it.
161
00:10:16,194 --> 00:10:19,404
And we working with many of these
institutions, parliaments and local
162
00:10:19,404 --> 00:10:24,517
governments and public agencies and
so on, economic institutions as well.
163
00:10:24,727 --> 00:10:25,447
So that's one part of it.
164
00:10:25,807 --> 00:10:30,157
But the other part, and just as
important, I think, is the democratic
165
00:10:30,157 --> 00:10:35,197
repair in everyday relationships, in
communities, in the way we relate to
166
00:10:35,197 --> 00:10:40,762
each other in our world, that because
of the contemporary political economy
167
00:10:40,762 --> 00:10:46,092
of the kind of capitalism we are
living in now, is very much designed
168
00:10:46,092 --> 00:10:51,222
to destroy the very relationships and
relational fabric of democratic life.
169
00:10:51,312 --> 00:10:54,462
And because we find ourselves in that
situation, we're pushing against a
170
00:10:54,462 --> 00:10:59,732
really strong tide, so part of this
is about recovering the foundation for
171
00:10:59,732 --> 00:11:04,442
democratic life, which to me is the space
of the common, and not just the commons.
172
00:11:04,472 --> 00:11:08,052
The commons, is part of it, but the
"common" as a principle of political life.
173
00:11:08,442 --> 00:11:12,332
Which is a principle that says it's
not just about aggregating preferences
174
00:11:12,337 --> 00:11:17,612
through the ballot box or through market
mechanisms, is about all kinds of forms
175
00:11:17,612 --> 00:11:23,702
of relational solidarity, of, public
reasoning, of collective intelligence,
176
00:11:23,702 --> 00:11:30,032
mobilisation to address challenges, and
rooted in, in basic democratic, principles
177
00:11:30,032 --> 00:11:34,976
of equality and solidarity, and, and,
and all the things that we associate
178
00:11:34,976 --> 00:11:36,486
with the, with the ideals, right?
179
00:11:37,296 --> 00:11:41,036
So democratic repair comes at all these
different levels, but to me it starts
180
00:11:41,036 --> 00:11:46,436
in communities and in Scotland we are, I
think, sometimes we don't appreciate this.
181
00:11:46,466 --> 00:11:50,665
Sometimes it helps when, you know,
we do a lot of work, in other
182
00:11:50,665 --> 00:11:54,326
countries and, and with partners
in different parts of the world.
183
00:11:55,426 --> 00:11:59,806
I, can be quite critical about where
we are in Scotland, but sometimes, when
184
00:11:59,806 --> 00:12:06,046
you look around, you realise that for
all the many challenges we face, there's
185
00:12:06,046 --> 00:12:07,636
a really, really strong foundation.
186
00:12:07,716 --> 00:12:10,541
Osbert: So tell me, dig into that a bit
more, I don't think about it in terms
187
00:12:10,541 --> 00:12:15,282
of democratic repair and democracy, but
certainly in terms of sort of climate
188
00:12:15,282 --> 00:12:19,272
change, sustainability and so on, I
think Scotland has this reputation, has
189
00:12:19,272 --> 00:12:25,152
built its reputation of talking up, it's
sort of ambition and so on around that.
190
00:12:25,152 --> 00:12:29,425
And then we get very upset when the
reality falls well below that ambition.
191
00:12:29,755 --> 00:12:33,385
But then meeting people from other
countries, it seems like our reality
192
00:12:33,385 --> 00:12:38,345
is actually very often not as bad
as we believe it is, given where
193
00:12:38,470 --> 00:12:41,710
other people are, which is not to say
it's any good, but it's… is the same
194
00:12:41,710 --> 00:12:43,090
thing happening in democracy as well?
195
00:12:43,135 --> 00:12:43,465
Oliver Escobar: Yeah.
196
00:12:43,645 --> 00:12:47,845
Well, and, this restlessness, this
is state of where we're, where we're
197
00:12:47,845 --> 00:12:51,355
thinking, oh, this is just not good
enough, or this could be better.
198
00:12:51,505 --> 00:12:52,585
That's a good thing to keep.
199
00:12:52,585 --> 00:12:57,115
We need to keep that, because it'll
keep us moving and away from complacency.
200
00:12:57,165 --> 00:13:00,645
To me, the climate crisis and
the crisis of democracy are
201
00:13:00,645 --> 00:13:01,890
two sides of the same coin.
202
00:13:02,370 --> 00:13:06,690
You cannot imagine any kind of
vision of a desirable future that
203
00:13:06,690 --> 00:13:11,580
doesn't entail both environmental
and democratic repair going together.
204
00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,910
And arguably for either of
or or or both to happen.
205
00:13:14,940 --> 00:13:18,810
They need to be looked at
as completely interlinked.
206
00:13:18,930 --> 00:13:24,684
Because democracy, if we were to boil it
down, the pithiest kind of definition that
207
00:13:24,684 --> 00:13:29,894
I, that I like on this is that "democracy
is about how we live together and apart".
208
00:13:30,974 --> 00:13:32,164
So it has those two sides, right?
209
00:13:32,524 --> 00:13:36,234
There has to be a space for difference
and sometimes for conflict that might
210
00:13:36,234 --> 00:13:40,814
take a long time to address, and we
need to have safe ways of living in
211
00:13:40,814 --> 00:13:43,154
the same space, but apart in safe ways.
212
00:13:43,364 --> 00:13:46,184
But then there's the other bit,
which is how we live together,
213
00:13:46,184 --> 00:13:47,444
how we govern ourselves.
214
00:13:47,534 --> 00:13:49,184
Osbert: That living apart bit
that's really interesting.
215
00:13:49,184 --> 00:13:49,664
It's like, how do we.
216
00:13:50,474 --> 00:13:51,614
How do we agree to disagree?
217
00:13:52,094 --> 00:13:53,999
And we've, seems we getting
worse and worse at that.
218
00:13:54,029 --> 00:13:54,449
Oliver Escobar: Yeah.
219
00:13:54,449 --> 00:13:58,109
And it's essential to the
protection of, minority rights.
220
00:13:58,109 --> 00:14:02,579
And it's essential to all some of
the big things that are, on the
221
00:14:02,579 --> 00:14:06,959
media all the time, treated in very
aggressive ways like migration and so
222
00:14:06,959 --> 00:14:10,799
on, which again, completely connected
to the climate crisis as well.
223
00:14:11,129 --> 00:14:17,849
So, so if we think in those terms,
then you gotta look at what foundations
224
00:14:17,849 --> 00:14:19,679
do we have in Scotland for that?
225
00:14:19,739 --> 00:14:25,293
And Scotland has an incredible, I,
I don't have a better word for this,
226
00:14:25,923 --> 00:14:29,163
and colleagues in the field don't
like it, but, sometimes they speak
227
00:14:29,163 --> 00:14:30,603
of the community sector, right?
228
00:14:31,173 --> 00:14:34,653
So, I prefer to call it
the commons, although the
229
00:14:34,653 --> 00:14:36,843
commons is broader than right?
230
00:14:37,223 --> 00:14:41,163
But in this space, you have community
development trusts and you have
231
00:14:41,163 --> 00:14:42,903
community anchor organisations.
232
00:14:42,933 --> 00:14:47,403
You have myriad groups that have come
out of all kinds of initiatives from
233
00:14:47,673 --> 00:14:51,423
Transition Towns, through all the kind of
things that along the way have sparked,
234
00:14:52,263 --> 00:14:54,273
hubs and climate action networks.
235
00:14:54,273 --> 00:14:54,723
And so on.
236
00:14:54,728 --> 00:14:54,788
Yeah.
237
00:14:54,828 --> 00:14:56,718
Osbert: And community
woodlands and stuff and…
238
00:14:56,718 --> 00:14:59,313
Oliver Escobar: Then community
ownership is a big part of that
239
00:14:59,313 --> 00:15:02,833
and most recently the community
wealth building agenda, right?
240
00:15:03,473 --> 00:15:05,673
Part of that was also the
community empowerment agenda.
241
00:15:05,913 --> 00:15:09,033
So the reason we tend to be
frustrated is because we never really
242
00:15:09,033 --> 00:15:11,493
quite go as far as we would like,
243
00:15:11,493 --> 00:15:11,593
you know?
244
00:15:11,613 --> 00:15:11,733
know?
245
00:15:11,883 --> 00:15:11,973
Yep.
246
00:15:12,528 --> 00:15:13,458
I was involved.
247
00:15:13,548 --> 00:15:17,578
I, I was one of the advisors in the
community Empowerment bill along the
248
00:15:17,578 --> 00:15:24,718
way, certain things have to, be more
domesticated, things that we wanted there
249
00:15:24,718 --> 00:15:28,168
were not there, other things that were
not planned to go there, went there.
250
00:15:28,338 --> 00:15:30,393
But anyway, we often focus
a lot on legislation.
251
00:15:30,498 --> 00:15:30,558
Yeah.
252
00:15:30,558 --> 00:15:35,478
It really matters, but it's only
one, one part of the equation, right?
253
00:15:35,478 --> 00:15:35,538
Yeah.
254
00:15:35,568 --> 00:15:37,128
It matters because it creates a space.
255
00:15:37,128 --> 00:15:37,218
Yes.
256
00:15:37,218 --> 00:15:38,388
It brings people together.
257
00:15:38,628 --> 00:15:41,718
It's a space of action and
interaction potentially, but it
258
00:15:41,718 --> 00:15:45,498
never goes as far, what, what
happens after is what really matters.
259
00:15:45,498 --> 00:15:50,118
And this is the bit that, we now
need to bear in mind with the
260
00:15:50,118 --> 00:15:52,698
community wealth building agenda
and the role it has to play.
261
00:15:53,088 --> 00:15:55,338
On the, on the, in
terms of climate action.
262
00:15:55,563 --> 00:15:57,183
Osbert: Are we particularly
bad at it in Scotland?
263
00:15:57,183 --> 00:15:58,923
We, we talk a good game.
264
00:15:58,923 --> 00:16:02,713
We get some good legislation through
never quite as good as we'd like.
265
00:16:03,273 --> 00:16:07,253
And then it's like, oh, but actually
the implementation falls pretty flat.
266
00:16:07,722 --> 00:16:09,022
Where's the good stuff there, I guess?
267
00:16:09,022 --> 00:16:10,452
What, what, actually is working well?
268
00:16:10,647 --> 00:16:14,757
Oliver Escobar: Okay, so I'm but there
is one step before that, which is to say,
269
00:16:15,927 --> 00:16:19,947
so we are rich in narrative in Scotland.
270
00:16:19,947 --> 00:16:21,417
We are really rich in narrative.
271
00:16:21,417 --> 00:16:26,877
We tend to be quite good at developing
grand narratives and, you know, and
272
00:16:26,877 --> 00:16:29,177
they, they have a role to play of course.
273
00:16:29,177 --> 00:16:29,467
Right?
274
00:16:29,507 --> 00:16:33,627
I mean, narrative generates
communities and momentum.
275
00:16:34,047 --> 00:16:37,617
At their best, potentially they
generate resources that can be
276
00:16:37,617 --> 00:16:39,267
mobilised in the right direction.
277
00:16:39,777 --> 00:16:42,997
The problem is when narrative
doesn't meet capacity.
278
00:16:43,887 --> 00:16:47,187
So it's this capacity bit
that we struggle with.
279
00:16:48,297 --> 00:16:53,037
This capacity bit has to do with
the world we find ourselves in where
280
00:16:53,037 --> 00:16:57,627
public power, the kind of power that is
exercised through the state is actually
281
00:16:57,777 --> 00:16:59,927
much smaller than we like to think.
282
00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:05,680
You just need to look at how much
public power struggles to reigning
283
00:17:05,829 --> 00:17:07,900
and govern economic power, right?
284
00:17:08,065 --> 00:17:12,670
And how you could make the case to say,
well, economic power runs public power.
285
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,930
So that creates this sort of glass
ceiling to transformation, right?
286
00:17:16,980 --> 00:17:20,550
Critical scholars talk about the glass
ceiling to transformation, the things
287
00:17:20,550 --> 00:17:23,550
that we don't see, which have to do
with the economy we've built, the
288
00:17:23,550 --> 00:17:28,890
limitations of the state that we now
have after, encounters like the UK 40
289
00:17:28,890 --> 00:17:31,860
years of the neoliberal regression.
290
00:17:32,730 --> 00:17:37,860
So, you know, once you think in terms of
capacity, then you begin to see why some
291
00:17:37,860 --> 00:17:39,540
of these things are really not advancing.
292
00:17:39,870 --> 00:17:46,230
But it's not just capacity in the sense
of resources, staff, a civil service
293
00:17:46,230 --> 00:17:48,435
that gets this, and officials and all.
294
00:17:48,570 --> 00:17:49,650
It's not just on that side.
295
00:17:49,650 --> 00:17:52,800
That side matters and it's
important, but it's also on the
296
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:54,930
side of where the money is going.
297
00:17:55,395 --> 00:18:02,205
The UK is famous for putting hundreds
of billions of pounds in subsidising,
298
00:18:02,568 --> 00:18:06,198
the private sector, but not the
private sector of the small and medium
299
00:18:06,198 --> 00:18:11,998
enterprise that I'm very supportive of,
but the, the large corporate interests.
300
00:18:12,554 --> 00:18:17,234
And if only a tiny, a tiny, tiny
portion of that went into the
301
00:18:17,234 --> 00:18:21,964
community sector, that's where you
could see accelerated transformation.
302
00:18:22,244 --> 00:18:22,614
Why?
303
00:18:22,654 --> 00:18:26,094
And here, I'm coming to, to your
question about the, the green
304
00:18:26,094 --> 00:18:27,804
shoots and the positive signs.
305
00:18:28,644 --> 00:18:34,764
So one of the, one of my favourite
research projects a few years back was, we
306
00:18:34,764 --> 00:18:40,404
wanted to understand the role of community
anchor organisations across Scotland.
307
00:18:40,644 --> 00:18:42,464
So we chose six exemplars.
308
00:18:42,834 --> 00:18:48,564
And community anchor organisations, take
different forms sometimes, so for example,
309
00:18:48,564 --> 00:18:53,154
the, it can be a, a community development
trust, it can be a housing association, it
310
00:18:53,154 --> 00:18:56,769
can be an environmental group Sustaining
Dunbar for example, is an example.
311
00:18:57,884 --> 00:18:59,834
So we studied six exemplars.
312
00:19:00,254 --> 00:19:01,544
Why did we choose them?
313
00:19:01,544 --> 00:19:05,474
Well, because we wanted to
see what happens when you
314
00:19:05,474 --> 00:19:06,764
have the best case scenario.
315
00:19:07,334 --> 00:19:10,874
Community and organisations that are
really dynamic, make a real difference,
316
00:19:10,964 --> 00:19:14,804
have a multipurpose orientation because
they're very responsive to community.
317
00:19:15,004 --> 00:19:17,729
They, they tend to work on all
kinds of issues from housing
318
00:19:17,759 --> 00:19:24,103
to social care, to, environmental
action, to economic development.
319
00:19:24,103 --> 00:19:27,163
They do all kinds of things right
because they're responsive to community.
320
00:19:27,213 --> 00:19:30,843
So they were, they were very, very
different, and they were across urban,
321
00:19:30,843 --> 00:19:34,343
semi-urban, and kind rural, of context.
322
00:19:34,673 --> 00:19:38,303
The reason we were given the funding
is because we wanted to understand
323
00:19:38,663 --> 00:19:45,083
what it would take to advance public
service reform in Scotland to change
324
00:19:45,113 --> 00:19:47,303
institutions and services for the future.
325
00:19:47,753 --> 00:19:52,823
And when we looked at the public
sector, we just couldn't find clean
326
00:19:52,823 --> 00:19:57,563
cut sort of examples that we could
hold as exemplar to learn from.
327
00:19:57,893 --> 00:20:00,953
'Cause if you learn about the barriers
that the exemplar face, that tells
328
00:20:00,953 --> 00:20:04,253
you a lot about the entire field
because if the best case scenario is
329
00:20:04,253 --> 00:20:06,473
so imperfect that's really insightful.
330
00:20:06,473 --> 00:20:06,663
Right?
331
00:20:07,083 --> 00:20:12,363
So where did we see the kind of things
that this sort of broader systemic,
332
00:20:12,723 --> 00:20:17,119
institutional and public service reform,
was happening in interesting ways?
333
00:20:17,149 --> 00:20:22,879
Well, that was in the space of community
anchors who were, responding to all
334
00:20:22,879 --> 00:20:29,329
kinds of local crisis in poverty, in,
fuel poverty, in uh, crisis of local
335
00:20:29,329 --> 00:20:34,009
care, crisis of unemployment, crisis of
health, issues related to drugs and so on.
336
00:20:34,609 --> 00:20:38,929
All, all kinds of, all kinds of,
interrelated social, economic
337
00:20:38,929 --> 00:20:40,039
and environmental issues.
338
00:20:40,279 --> 00:20:41,529
And it was these organisations.
339
00:20:41,599 --> 00:20:47,629
And they did it with very, very small
budgets, constrained by a funding
340
00:20:47,629 --> 00:20:53,819
landscape of short term thinking and
short term funding, with literally
341
00:20:53,819 --> 00:20:58,949
a skeleton staff, who were all
rounders, doing all kinds of things.
342
00:20:59,009 --> 00:21:01,779
And what we saw there is this
is the frontline, this is how
343
00:21:01,779 --> 00:21:03,099
you can work in a different way.
344
00:21:03,129 --> 00:21:08,289
And if only they had the resources and
the support and the legal frameworks,
345
00:21:08,369 --> 00:21:12,839
that could propel this, you could
have a more balanced economy where
346
00:21:12,839 --> 00:21:18,139
private sector, public sector, and the
commons are on a more equal footing.
347
00:21:18,319 --> 00:21:20,984
Which in my mind will bring a corrective.
348
00:21:21,014 --> 00:21:24,014
To me, the commons is the great
corrective to the excesses of the
349
00:21:24,014 --> 00:21:29,874
alliance between, the corporate market
imaginary and the state imaginary.
350
00:21:29,934 --> 00:21:31,501
And those two go work together, right?
351
00:21:31,501 --> 00:21:34,591
Some of these binaries, market the state
are really unhelpful, because there's no
352
00:21:34,741 --> 00:21:38,011
market without the state, there's no state
without the market they emerge together.
353
00:21:38,411 --> 00:21:39,991
They, they are, they're tied up the hip.
354
00:21:40,291 --> 00:21:42,991
The only thing that is gonna change
the architecture of incentives
355
00:21:42,991 --> 00:21:48,571
and the dynamics in, in, at this
macro level is by reconnecting.
356
00:21:48,721 --> 00:21:53,071
And this is where, yes, repair has
an element of, looking at things
357
00:21:53,071 --> 00:21:55,351
that maybe in the past were better.
358
00:21:55,401 --> 00:22:01,309
What we saw in that project was that,
with the right investment and frameworks,
359
00:22:01,369 --> 00:22:08,059
this capacity to to act in ways that
are very responsive to communities, in
360
00:22:08,059 --> 00:22:11,839
ways that are very reflective of the
priorities of aspirations of communities
361
00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:15,424
of place, but also communities of
practise, communities of interest that
362
00:22:15,424 --> 00:22:21,439
you could just really to to tilt or at
least begin to rebalance a little bit the
363
00:22:21,439 --> 00:22:25,789
way we think about economic development,
the way we think about democratic life.
364
00:22:26,179 --> 00:22:28,429
And to me the commons has
a key role to play in that.
365
00:22:28,429 --> 00:22:30,679
So that's what I see a
lot of the potential.
366
00:22:30,739 --> 00:22:31,369
And it's happening.
367
00:22:31,379 --> 00:22:35,329
It's just that a lot of this doesn't make
the news and it doesn't fit a lot of the
368
00:22:35,329 --> 00:22:40,579
narratives of the way we tell the story
of what the world is like right now and
369
00:22:40,579 --> 00:22:42,499
what the Scotland is and can be right now.
370
00:22:43,138 --> 00:22:47,368
But for example, in the northeast of
Scotland just now, there is a green
371
00:22:47,368 --> 00:22:53,308
participatory budgeting programme that has
potential if only, the Scottish government
372
00:22:53,308 --> 00:22:58,468
was prepared to, grow it even farther,
it's part of the just transition fund.
373
00:22:58,888 --> 00:23:01,468
But it's a, it is a small
proportion's around a million a year.
374
00:23:01,948 --> 00:23:06,248
But what this does is it brings together,
community organisations across Moray,
375
00:23:06,891 --> 00:23:07,741
Aberdeen City and Aberdeenshire.
376
00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:13,370
And across that region, which as
you and and your listeners will know
377
00:23:13,370 --> 00:23:20,494
is, the sort oil region of Scotland,
they're trying to, use participatory
378
00:23:20,494 --> 00:23:25,204
budgeting as a way of involving
communities in climate action, but also
379
00:23:25,204 --> 00:23:27,874
just transition policy on the ground.
380
00:23:28,294 --> 00:23:32,014
Now, this is a tiny, tiny percentage
because I think the Transition Fund,
381
00:23:32,074 --> 00:23:35,914
the just Transition fund when it
was announced was around a hundred
382
00:23:35,914 --> 00:23:40,524
million and only a tiny goes to PB.
383
00:23:40,774 --> 00:23:44,734
But, but here's what makes this kind
of democratic innovation potentially
384
00:23:44,734 --> 00:23:50,074
different, is that instead of,
allocating the funds according to some
385
00:23:50,074 --> 00:23:55,726
kind of committee sitting Edinburgh
or, or somewhere else, what this
386
00:23:55,726 --> 00:23:59,926
does is it, it just hands over the
money for communities to decide on
387
00:23:59,926 --> 00:24:01,726
it through a participatory process.
388
00:24:02,176 --> 00:24:05,836
Now, what that means is that you're
generating capacity you didn't have,
389
00:24:05,896 --> 00:24:09,793
because the committee, Edinburgh
can send the money to organisations
390
00:24:09,793 --> 00:24:13,993
and so on, but it's far removed from
the realities of these communities
391
00:24:13,993 --> 00:24:15,523
who need to lead the transition.
392
00:24:15,913 --> 00:24:19,903
Whereas what you do when you open
this space up through something like
393
00:24:19,963 --> 00:24:24,913
participatory budgeting is that you
are mobilising the energy, the ideas,
394
00:24:25,513 --> 00:24:30,283
the motivation, the know-how, and the
local knowledge of, in this case, over
395
00:24:30,283 --> 00:24:34,853
60 groups that have been already formed
and mobilised for the green PB agenda.
396
00:24:34,853 --> 00:24:37,793
And then everyone else in those
communities get to vote on projects
397
00:24:37,793 --> 00:24:39,623
and proposals and and so on.
398
00:24:39,743 --> 00:24:42,773
So all of a sudden you're
generating power that wasn't there.
399
00:24:42,773 --> 00:24:44,723
You're generating capacity
that wasn't there.
400
00:24:44,723 --> 00:24:48,413
You're unleashing and unlocking
all kinds of ways of doing things
401
00:24:48,563 --> 00:24:52,133
that you couldn't come up with
if you are governing top down.
402
00:24:52,183 --> 00:24:52,324
right?
403
00:24:52,421 --> 00:24:54,951
Osbert: That really, that really
turns on its head this idea of
404
00:24:54,951 --> 00:24:59,171
that elite representative democracy
that you talked about before, which
405
00:24:59,411 --> 00:25:02,641
doesn't trust anyone except the
elites to, to make any decisions.
406
00:25:02,716 --> 00:25:02,956
Oliver Escobar: Yeah.
407
00:25:03,166 --> 00:25:07,993
So that's really important because, you
know, in a lot of, media conversations
408
00:25:07,993 --> 00:25:13,633
about politics and even in a lot
of research, one of the points that
409
00:25:13,633 --> 00:25:19,100
gets made is that, people don't trust
politicians, people are increasingly,
410
00:25:19,350 --> 00:25:21,540
distrustful of institutions.
411
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,720
But actually, I don't think
that that's the main problem.
412
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,390
I think the main problem is that
politicians and institutions
413
00:25:27,390 --> 00:25:28,615
are not trusting people.
414
00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:30,780
I think it goes the other way around.
415
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,480
Obviously you need both, but
it goes the other way around.
416
00:25:33,810 --> 00:25:38,820
And if you don't have institutions
and formal power holders and leaders
417
00:25:39,060 --> 00:25:42,630
who trust people, then you're in
trouble because you're gonna build
418
00:25:42,630 --> 00:25:48,780
a system that keeps people away from
decision making and power spaces.
419
00:25:48,930 --> 00:25:52,410
And once you do that, you're
missing the collective intelligence
420
00:25:52,410 --> 00:25:53,550
that you need to mobilise.
421
00:25:53,730 --> 00:25:57,030
You're missing the resources that
sometimes are already out there, or the
422
00:25:57,030 --> 00:26:02,368
capacity that could be unlocked, if you
were mobilising, larger networks and
423
00:26:02,368 --> 00:26:06,698
groups of people for collective action,
and once you lose that, you're absolutely
424
00:26:06,708 --> 00:26:12,328
doomed because you are forever locked into
a system that undermines its own future.
425
00:26:12,418 --> 00:26:16,648
It's because that future is based on
your capacity to address issues, to solve
426
00:26:16,648 --> 00:26:18,683
problems, to address long-term crisis.
427
00:26:18,958 --> 00:26:22,588
If you don't have that capacity, your
legitimacy will keep being eroded
428
00:26:22,858 --> 00:26:24,488
and it becomes a vicious circle.
429
00:26:24,863 --> 00:26:27,978
Osbert: Listening to that and I
think reflecting on my own sort
430
00:26:27,978 --> 00:26:31,408
of gut response, I suppose to
participatory budgeting and so on.
431
00:26:32,158 --> 00:26:36,598
And I've worked in this
sector for a long time.
432
00:26:36,958 --> 00:26:39,178
I'm familiar with a lot
of the ideas around this.
433
00:26:39,178 --> 00:26:42,658
I've seen the what communities can do
and all the positive work you know,
434
00:26:42,748 --> 00:26:46,498
change that comes outta that, and the
amazing people doing amazing things.
435
00:26:46,828 --> 00:26:49,858
And yet at the same time I'm hearing
this little voice in my head saying:
436
00:26:50,708 --> 00:26:55,593
but we can't trust ordinary people to
be responsible with that sort of money.
437
00:26:55,668 --> 00:26:57,618
And I'm thinking, why am I thinking that?
438
00:26:58,168 --> 00:27:00,778
And I guess it really, it probably
comes down to this narrative we've
439
00:27:00,778 --> 00:27:04,508
grown up with the narrative, the
media puts out that, basically people
440
00:27:04,508 --> 00:27:08,101
aren't capable of that sort of stuff,
individual acts of heroism, yes.
441
00:27:08,101 --> 00:27:09,841
But not collective action.
442
00:27:10,066 --> 00:27:13,156
Oliver Escobar: So it is a
very understandable reaction.
443
00:27:13,156 --> 00:27:17,776
It's actually a reaction that makes
sense given, the context and the
444
00:27:17,776 --> 00:27:19,906
cultural narratives that we have created.
445
00:27:20,386 --> 00:27:21,736
Osbert: I just want you
to take a, take a moment.
446
00:27:21,856 --> 00:27:23,736
Have you seen this sign before?
447
00:27:23,856 --> 00:27:24,225
Oliver Escobar: No.
448
00:27:24,406 --> 00:27:26,718
Osbert: So we're on the meadows and
there's a little information plaque,
449
00:27:27,598 --> 00:27:29,008
and there's this bit here where it says,
450
00:27:29,328 --> 00:27:33,988
" Marchmont sitting rooms hosted countless
protest meetings in the 1950s and 60s
451
00:27:34,418 --> 00:27:39,188
over city planners' proposals to tackle
traffic congestion and inner city slums.
452
00:27:39,668 --> 00:27:44,498
Plans envisaged a six lane motorway across
the Meadows with tower blocks and an
453
00:27:44,498 --> 00:27:45,888
underground shopping centre at Tollcross."
454
00:27:47,198 --> 00:27:50,228
I just think whenever I come here
and see that I feel so angry the
455
00:27:50,393 --> 00:27:53,558
idea was proposed in the first
place, but also so thankful for
456
00:27:53,558 --> 00:27:55,218
those people who made it stop.
457
00:27:55,923 --> 00:27:59,073
Oliver Escobar: Well, and that goes
precisely to the, to the point we
458
00:27:59,073 --> 00:28:03,873
were discussing that, and it doesn't
have to depend on heroic individuals,
459
00:28:03,873 --> 00:28:08,253
although it is true that leadership
functions sometimes, you know, are
460
00:28:08,253 --> 00:28:11,913
distributed and you need to, there are
moments depending on where we are in
461
00:28:11,913 --> 00:28:16,263
our lives, the time we have available,
these resources are, unequally across
462
00:28:16,263 --> 00:28:19,443
society, so not everyone can be
involved in everything all the time.
463
00:28:19,593 --> 00:28:23,538
But the question is whether we
are fostering the best possible
464
00:28:23,598 --> 00:28:25,338
division of democratic labour.
465
00:28:25,428 --> 00:28:25,728
Right.
466
00:28:25,828 --> 00:28:29,338
And it's difficult to do, especially
in a world where we are time poor,
467
00:28:29,608 --> 00:28:32,248
where we are, just barely keeping up.
468
00:28:32,248 --> 00:28:35,668
I mean, the cost of living
crisis is a permanent thing.
469
00:28:36,085 --> 00:28:41,035
You know, the way we balance life and
work and care labour, which is put
470
00:28:41,035 --> 00:28:44,695
at the bottom of, of the priorities
of a society that depends on care,
471
00:28:44,695 --> 00:28:48,565
labour, all these things we've built
the, the, the wrong way around.
472
00:28:48,565 --> 00:28:48,835
Right.
473
00:28:49,155 --> 00:28:54,675
But the point about whether people will
have the inclination, the capacity,
474
00:28:54,675 --> 00:28:59,085
the values, the, the right priorities,
it's a, it is a very, understandable
475
00:28:59,085 --> 00:29:04,725
reaction to when you are fed constantly
certain images of the public.
476
00:29:04,785 --> 00:29:05,115
Right?
477
00:29:05,175 --> 00:29:06,765
This happens with politicians, right?
478
00:29:07,305 --> 00:29:13,005
often, when politicians observe a
climate assembly or a good participatory
479
00:29:13,005 --> 00:29:16,785
budgeting process, or a good digital
crowdsourcing process or any kind of,
480
00:29:17,048 --> 00:29:20,678
participatory process where all the
right ingredients and conditions are
481
00:29:20,678 --> 00:29:24,998
in place, it's always an eye opener for
them because the image they have of they
482
00:29:24,998 --> 00:29:29,698
had of the public was that wet Wednesday
evening on a town hall, when they were
483
00:29:29,698 --> 00:29:37,480
shouted at on stage, or the sort of, three
or four domineering vocal voices that
484
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,790
you're getting a vox pop in the media.
485
00:29:40,130 --> 00:29:43,570
So these constructions of the public
really matter because that's what keeps
486
00:29:43,570 --> 00:29:47,685
this system running, is thinking that we
cannot trust our fellow citizens, and by
487
00:29:47,685 --> 00:29:49,815
extension we cannot trust our communities.
488
00:29:50,245 --> 00:29:54,555
Now that's a narrative construction
that is very effective, that is
489
00:29:54,795 --> 00:30:00,045
daily perpetuated by the powers
that be, by the media and the way a
490
00:30:00,045 --> 00:30:03,165
lot of mainstream media understand
and conceptualise the public.
491
00:30:03,585 --> 00:30:06,705
When you look empirically at this,
the story is quite different.
492
00:30:07,125 --> 00:30:08,815
We mentioned earlier climate assemblies.
493
00:30:09,305 --> 00:30:13,755
Here is one finding that is pretty
consistent across climate assemblies and
494
00:30:13,755 --> 00:30:17,895
by now they've been around 200, mainly in
Europe, but they're beginning to spread.
495
00:30:18,075 --> 00:30:20,295
It's happening in Brazil, it's
happening in Mozambique, it's
496
00:30:20,295 --> 00:30:21,858
happening, all over the world.
497
00:30:22,861 --> 00:30:27,631
In climate assemblies, which are made
up of a cross section of the population.
498
00:30:28,081 --> 00:30:32,971
So that's why we call them mini publics,
cause essentially you want, some of
499
00:30:32,971 --> 00:30:37,591
the poorest and some of the richest in
society, people with all kinds of, levels
500
00:30:37,591 --> 00:30:41,461
of formal education or no education at
all, all kinds of levels of employment,
501
00:30:41,461 --> 00:30:45,941
indeed unemployment, you want people
from the youngest to the oldest,
502
00:30:46,161 --> 00:30:48,451
obviously you want a good gender mix.
503
00:30:48,451 --> 00:30:51,901
All these kind of things, you put into
the way you design the process and then
504
00:30:51,901 --> 00:30:53,521
you get this cross section of the public.
505
00:30:53,821 --> 00:30:58,201
They get support in terms of evidence
sessions, testimonies by all kinds of
506
00:30:58,201 --> 00:30:59,731
people who come and tell their story.
507
00:30:59,881 --> 00:31:01,981
Think for example, about the
Scottish Climate Assembly.
508
00:31:02,191 --> 00:31:08,025
It heard from over a hundred speakers,
from climate scientists to people who
509
00:31:08,025 --> 00:31:12,315
run a green cooperative in Glasgow,
to people who work in conservation,
510
00:31:12,315 --> 00:31:16,185
to people who are climate activists
or youth climate activists, all
511
00:31:16,185 --> 00:31:19,815
kinds of people, business as well,
agricultural interests, and so on.
512
00:31:20,575 --> 00:31:23,305
Osbert: So in terms of those people
who came and spoke to the climate
513
00:31:23,465 --> 00:31:30,325
assembly, to what extent are they a
cross section of perceptions and views?
514
00:31:30,325 --> 00:31:33,775
I can imagine you might feel like
you sort of handpick your experts,
515
00:31:33,775 --> 00:31:34,775
you can manipulate that process.
516
00:31:34,835 --> 00:31:35,705
Oliver Escobar: A hundred percent!
517
00:31:35,905 --> 00:31:40,080
This is the governance of climate
assemblies is a whole area of work.
518
00:31:40,393 --> 00:31:44,473
The way we go about it at the moment, the
sort of best practise, and it still has
519
00:31:44,473 --> 00:31:49,603
things that can be improved, of course,
is you set up an oversight board that
520
00:31:49,603 --> 00:31:50,878
includes people across the spectrum.
521
00:31:51,743 --> 00:31:55,103
So in the case of Scotland's climate
assembly, there was a stewarding board
522
00:31:55,253 --> 00:32:01,881
with 24 people, and that included, one
politician from each of the parliamentary
523
00:32:01,881 --> 00:32:07,071
parties, from the Conservatives to the
Greens, Libdems, Labour, SNP, that
524
00:32:07,071 --> 00:32:08,961
included two or three academics.
525
00:32:08,961 --> 00:32:14,031
Some of us, I was there, some of
us with expertise on process, some
526
00:32:14,031 --> 00:32:16,251
of us with, expertise on climate.
527
00:32:16,641 --> 00:32:18,411
Then you have sectoral interest.
528
00:32:18,411 --> 00:32:23,224
So there was, for example the director
of the National Farmers Union.
529
00:32:23,994 --> 00:32:26,884
There was someone from housing,
there was someone from transport.
530
00:32:27,304 --> 00:32:28,444
Then you have activists.
531
00:32:28,534 --> 00:32:32,764
So there were two Extinction
Rebellion members, there were a, a
532
00:32:32,764 --> 00:32:35,464
couple of youth climate activists.
533
00:32:36,190 --> 00:32:41,680
So you have a board that contains
the spectrum of discourses
534
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,130
and perspectives on the issue.
535
00:32:43,530 --> 00:32:47,500
Because that's how then, oversee
the balance of the speakers who
536
00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:50,650
are gonna come across, of the
evidence that is gonna be presented.
537
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:55,390
So for example, Extinction Rebellion
kept making the point, is this assembly
538
00:32:55,390 --> 00:32:56,830
gonna talk about systemic change?
539
00:32:56,980 --> 00:32:58,660
Previous climate assemblies
haven't done that.
540
00:32:58,660 --> 00:33:02,680
They've been too focused on very
specific issues, which are important.
541
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:07,180
But, so that, was really influential in
making sure that the Scottish Climate
542
00:33:07,180 --> 00:33:10,180
Assembly had sessions on systemic change.
543
00:33:10,780 --> 00:33:12,365
Osbert: What about from the
other end of that spectrum?
544
00:33:12,585 --> 00:33:12,735
Okay.
545
00:33:12,735 --> 00:33:16,785
If there'd been some vociferous
Reform anti net zero member had
546
00:33:16,785 --> 00:33:19,785
been on that group requiring that
Bjorn Lomberg could come and give
547
00:33:19,785 --> 00:33:20,985
evidence or something like that.
548
00:33:20,985 --> 00:33:21,995
How would that fit into this?
549
00:33:22,465 --> 00:33:27,595
Oliver Escobar: So the understanding
behind these new civic institutions is
550
00:33:27,595 --> 00:33:32,695
that they should be exposed to all the
discourses that are available in society.
551
00:33:33,205 --> 00:33:37,015
So personally, this will be my view,
although I'm having these conversations
552
00:33:37,015 --> 00:33:41,545
with parliaments in other countries,
where they don't necessarily agree,
553
00:33:41,725 --> 00:33:46,717
but my view is that, there'll have
to be a space for those discourses
554
00:33:46,737 --> 00:33:49,987
as well, because the whole point of
the civic institutions is that they
555
00:33:49,987 --> 00:33:51,737
then apply the deliberative filter.
556
00:33:52,057 --> 00:33:58,317
Okay, so now come over and tell me why
continuing our dependence on fossil
557
00:33:58,317 --> 00:34:01,027
fuels is good for cost of living.
558
00:34:01,027 --> 00:34:06,307
Now come and tell me how that is
good for the future of living beings?
559
00:34:06,407 --> 00:34:07,727
And here's the thing, right?
560
00:34:08,476 --> 00:34:12,197
These, these kind of voices,
they feel very comfortable.
561
00:34:12,542 --> 00:34:14,562
In the way they operate
now through lobbying.
562
00:34:14,822 --> 00:34:17,782
Because behind closed doors, they don't
need to come and tell you why is it
563
00:34:17,782 --> 00:34:20,092
good that we do this really bad thing?
564
00:34:20,452 --> 00:34:23,062
They come and tell you, well, you'll
do this bad thing because I'm gonna
565
00:34:23,062 --> 00:34:26,542
support you and your political
campaign or, because otherwise I'm
566
00:34:26,542 --> 00:34:28,972
gonna smash you in the media cycle.
567
00:34:28,972 --> 00:34:30,592
And they're very
comfortable in that space.
568
00:34:30,772 --> 00:34:33,112
They need to be brought
into the public space.
569
00:34:33,232 --> 00:34:36,891
In the public space, you need
to engage in public reasoning.
570
00:34:37,206 --> 00:34:40,947
Not reasoning for yourself
interest or the interest of your
571
00:34:40,947 --> 00:34:45,742
particular group, but tell me how
that is good for everyone else?
572
00:34:45,772 --> 00:34:48,737
And that's where deliberation
does its filtering work.
573
00:34:49,042 --> 00:34:53,411
Osbert: And it seems to me it's essential
to do that as a way of like completely
574
00:34:53,411 --> 00:34:55,492
trusting that deliberative process.
575
00:34:55,982 --> 00:35:01,092
If we're saying, well, actually we can't
risk exposing these representative group
576
00:35:01,092 --> 00:35:06,442
of people across society, we can't risk
exposing them to these unattractive,
577
00:35:06,442 --> 00:35:09,262
radical, whatever views, it was
like, well, we're we're we've failed.
578
00:35:09,292 --> 00:35:10,402
Oliver Escobar: Don't
forget another thing.
579
00:35:10,432 --> 00:35:13,692
The assembly itself had climate sceptics.
580
00:35:13,762 --> 00:35:14,152
Osbert: Of course.
581
00:35:14,512 --> 00:35:16,102
Oliver Escobar: It's a cross
section of the population.
582
00:35:16,502 --> 00:35:18,202
They were recruited on purpose.
583
00:35:18,662 --> 00:35:22,492
Not just demographics, but what
we call discursive diversity.
584
00:35:22,852 --> 00:35:27,862
So what you had there is people
who are very involved in climate
585
00:35:27,862 --> 00:35:32,887
activism, but of course reflecting
that proportion in society is not, it
586
00:35:32,932 --> 00:35:34,732
was not the, the bulk of the assembly.
587
00:35:34,732 --> 00:35:35,302
Of course.
588
00:35:35,362 --> 00:35:39,082
And on the other hand, you had some
climate sceptics, people who were
589
00:35:39,082 --> 00:35:44,307
far, far less persuaded by sometimes
a few, very, very few, I would say
590
00:35:44,307 --> 00:35:47,907
the climate science, but the way
we go about the climate emergency,
591
00:35:47,907 --> 00:35:49,527
which is where things seem to be now.
592
00:35:49,527 --> 00:35:49,737
Right.
593
00:35:49,737 --> 00:35:50,577
That's the battleground.
594
00:35:50,577 --> 00:35:50,667
Yeah.
595
00:35:51,027 --> 00:35:54,267
So you have that, but then you have
everyone else in between, which is the big
596
00:35:54,267 --> 00:35:57,267
chunk, which is everyone else in society.
597
00:35:57,267 --> 00:36:00,502
But here's the thing, the 81
recommendations that came out of
598
00:36:00,502 --> 00:36:07,853
the Scottish Climate Assembly, a
lot of them were quite, quite, bold.
599
00:36:08,564 --> 00:36:08,593
Right?
600
00:36:08,663 --> 00:36:14,363
So, so for example, one of them was
about shifting from GDP and towards a
601
00:36:14,363 --> 00:36:17,643
wellbeing economy, because they have
had those sessions on systemic change.
602
00:36:18,460 --> 00:36:23,540
There was proposals for public
free transport and integration
603
00:36:23,540 --> 00:36:27,410
systems, a very radical sort of
transport policy for the country.
604
00:36:27,890 --> 00:36:31,850
There was of course, the ban
on single use plastics, which
605
00:36:31,850 --> 00:36:33,080
was one of the recommendations.
606
00:36:33,295 --> 00:36:33,375
right.
607
00:36:33,380 --> 00:36:33,720
Osbert: I didn't realise that.
608
00:36:34,590 --> 00:36:36,540
Oliver Escobar: There were all kinds
of other things that you would expect,
609
00:36:36,540 --> 00:36:40,050
like sharing tool libraries and all
kinds of very practical things as
610
00:36:40,050 --> 00:36:45,960
well, but they also wanted new forms
of community governance that held, the
611
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:47,400
powers that would be more accountable.
612
00:36:47,490 --> 00:36:50,610
So there were all kinds of things
that were proposals, for example,
613
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,070
for, flying levees of all kinds.
614
00:36:55,260 --> 00:36:56,240
So all kinds of things.
615
00:36:56,830 --> 00:36:59,440
Now is this exclusive to the
Scottish Climate Assembly?
616
00:36:59,440 --> 00:36:59,770
No!
617
00:36:59,810 --> 00:37:01,660
And, that's the point
where I was starting.
618
00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:05,230
Here's the most consistent finding
about climate assemblies so far.
619
00:37:05,650 --> 00:37:09,040
These assemblies tend to produce
recommendations that always
620
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:10,640
push beyond the status quo.
621
00:37:11,270 --> 00:37:14,440
They never just replicate
the, the policies we have.
622
00:37:14,590 --> 00:37:17,460
They always take things
quite much farther, and this
623
00:37:17,460 --> 00:37:20,010
is where they begin to fail.
624
00:37:20,130 --> 00:37:23,400
They tend to fail beautifully because
they've done a great job and then
625
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,260
it comes to, and where do they fail?
626
00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:29,955
At the moment of translating this
collective will formation that you
627
00:37:29,955 --> 00:37:33,885
get through public deliberation
into capacity for collective action
628
00:37:34,035 --> 00:37:35,601
through the institutions we now have.
629
00:37:35,832 --> 00:37:38,242
Osbert: I happened to meet someone
the other day who had actually been
630
00:37:38,242 --> 00:37:39,182
part of the Climate Assembly assembly.
631
00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:41,090
I think she was quite at a loss.
632
00:37:41,090 --> 00:37:42,470
"Well, what difference did it make?"
633
00:37:42,650 --> 00:37:45,410
Oliver Escobar: The reality is that
the majority of recommendations
634
00:37:45,470 --> 00:37:46,820
still tend to be ignored.
635
00:37:46,940 --> 00:37:51,650
Let's take one of the most high profile
cases, the French Climate Convention.
636
00:37:52,130 --> 00:37:53,810
It was the first one at that scale.
637
00:37:53,890 --> 00:37:58,125
The French Climate Convention had a
really high profile because, Manuel
638
00:37:58,125 --> 00:38:02,532
Macron, essentially created the space,
the authorising environment for that.
639
00:38:02,682 --> 00:38:04,992
It was a response to the
Yellow Vests movement.
640
00:38:05,538 --> 00:38:06,318
But here's the thing.
641
00:38:07,128 --> 00:38:11,808
It proposed all kinds of, so for
example, it was, it was in the
642
00:38:11,808 --> 00:38:15,018
news, although this always happens
with this kind of processes.
643
00:38:15,018 --> 00:38:15,828
You see the news?
644
00:38:16,698 --> 00:38:19,248
But they never tell you, oh, along
the way, there was a citizen's
645
00:38:19,248 --> 00:38:20,548
assembly or citizen's jury.
646
00:38:20,648 --> 00:38:25,928
Side, side example, super
quick, the assisted dying
647
00:38:26,108 --> 00:38:28,028
legislation in, was it Jersey?
648
00:38:28,158 --> 00:38:30,138
I can't remember where it
was, that passed recently.
649
00:38:30,738 --> 00:38:33,588
You'll have never heard in the news,
but there was a citizen's duty that
650
00:38:33,588 --> 00:38:34,908
was a key part of that process.
651
00:38:35,658 --> 00:38:39,098
In France, for example, there
was a ban on internal flights.
652
00:38:39,618 --> 00:38:43,198
So if you can get by train
you cannot take a flight.
653
00:38:43,278 --> 00:38:43,578
Right.
654
00:38:43,578 --> 00:38:43,588
Yeah.
655
00:38:43,758 --> 00:38:45,198
That came from the French assembly.
656
00:38:45,408 --> 00:38:48,948
Now what did the, what did the
institutional, filtering do?
657
00:38:49,428 --> 00:38:50,628
It was gonna be for four hours.
658
00:38:50,658 --> 00:38:53,238
If you can get there by
train four hours, no flight.
659
00:38:53,718 --> 00:38:54,888
And they reduced it to two.
660
00:38:55,128 --> 00:38:55,308
Osbert: Yeah.
661
00:38:55,518 --> 00:38:55,908
Oliver Escobar: Right.
662
00:38:56,008 --> 00:38:58,358
So the watering down that
happens, that happens.
663
00:38:58,408 --> 00:39:03,028
But the Assembly wanted to amend the
Constitution to include the crime
664
00:39:03,058 --> 00:39:08,608
of ecoside, so that it will be a key
tool to reining corporate power that
665
00:39:08,613 --> 00:39:10,318
that is environmentally destructive.
666
00:39:10,378 --> 00:39:15,178
So these assemblies, again, not made up
of activists, but of a cross section of
667
00:39:15,268 --> 00:39:19,858
public, when given the time to examine
evidence, deliberate, hear range of
668
00:39:19,858 --> 00:39:25,528
perspectives, these are the kind of
things, and not by a 48:52 vote support.
669
00:39:25,688 --> 00:39:29,015
In the Scottish assembly, most
of the recommendations has 70%
670
00:39:29,165 --> 00:39:30,545
support and up within the assembly.
671
00:39:30,675 --> 00:39:34,275
Osbert: That's what's so exciting about
that process is in some ways for me,
672
00:39:34,275 --> 00:39:40,295
it's not the specific outcomes, it's
that such a number of really quite
673
00:39:40,295 --> 00:39:45,175
radical proposals have come out from
a representative group of society.
674
00:39:45,275 --> 00:39:49,715
Our assumptions, fed by all sorts of
media and so on, is that most people
675
00:39:49,715 --> 00:39:52,835
don't care about this stuff, haven't
got the time or energy to think about
676
00:39:52,835 --> 00:39:57,685
it, wouldn't approve of any of these
proposals, and therefore the politicians
677
00:39:57,685 --> 00:40:00,595
that we have at the moment are too risk
averse, 'cause they won't blah blah.
678
00:40:00,970 --> 00:40:03,060
Oliver Escobar: This is where
this connects to the systemic
679
00:40:03,420 --> 00:40:05,010
aspects of the climate crisis.
680
00:40:05,170 --> 00:40:10,705
We built systems that invest immense
amounts of money and resource
681
00:40:10,765 --> 00:40:14,395
and culture in persuading people
not to care about each other.
682
00:40:14,425 --> 00:40:16,251
So democratic repair is
about undoing this, right?
683
00:40:17,545 --> 00:40:20,935
Now there was always this
classic cliche, critique about
684
00:40:20,935 --> 00:40:22,525
participatory democracy, right?
685
00:40:22,525 --> 00:40:25,455
I think it was Oscar Wilde, people
always mentioned this, "you
686
00:40:25,455 --> 00:40:28,285
will spend your life in meetings"
and it is not quite like that.
687
00:40:29,065 --> 00:40:33,775
A division of democratic labour for a
future worth living is not gonna be that.
688
00:40:33,775 --> 00:40:36,085
It's not everyone participating
in everything all the time.
689
00:40:36,145 --> 00:40:40,240
Although they are, there is digital
infrastructure, that can lower the
690
00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:43,900
sort of barriers of entry and can
enable all kinds of interesting, and
691
00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:47,750
we are doing some, there's some work
going on just now, between civil
692
00:40:47,750 --> 00:40:51,200
society and the Scottish government,
the open government partnership, about
693
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:56,117
creating, a collective intelligence,
digital infrastructure to enable large
694
00:40:56,117 --> 00:40:57,647
scale deliberation, all these things.
695
00:40:57,647 --> 00:41:00,077
So we are working on the infrastructure
bit, and that's important.
696
00:41:00,227 --> 00:41:03,197
But that doesn't mean that we all need to
be involved in everything all the time.
697
00:41:03,317 --> 00:41:06,137
What we need is fair ways of
distributing that labour, right?
698
00:41:06,257 --> 00:41:09,857
This is why assemblies have become a
little bit better known because it's
699
00:41:09,857 --> 00:41:16,007
one way of saying, okay, "I might not be
able to go into that, but I trust that
700
00:41:16,127 --> 00:41:19,967
that's a group of people I'll trust more
than some committee behind closed doors
701
00:41:20,117 --> 00:41:22,837
'cause they're gonna be deliberating in
public, they're gonna take their time".
702
00:41:23,257 --> 00:41:26,207
The Scottish Climate Assembly, has
spent more time examining evidence
703
00:41:26,417 --> 00:41:28,877
than the Scottish Parliament has
spent on environmental issues
704
00:41:28,877 --> 00:41:31,852
in the whole legislature, and
they did it in eight weekends.
705
00:41:32,722 --> 00:41:33,022
Right.
706
00:41:33,022 --> 00:41:35,902
So, So, we are talking about
increasing capacity at the level.
707
00:41:36,082 --> 00:41:39,052
What we need is politicians
with the vision to do this.
708
00:41:39,052 --> 00:41:42,862
And this has a lot to do with
understanding the participatory
709
00:41:42,862 --> 00:41:46,382
theory of power, which is different
from the traditional theory.
710
00:41:46,502 --> 00:41:50,572
The traditional theory of power, and many
of my conversations with politicians over
711
00:41:50,572 --> 00:41:57,142
the years is about, "Look, actually we
don't have as much power as people think.
712
00:41:57,802 --> 00:42:00,532
We have little power and we
need to try and preserve it so
713
00:42:00,532 --> 00:42:01,982
that we can get something done".
714
00:42:02,812 --> 00:42:05,992
And, and this is true, it is a
fair point that politicians made.
715
00:42:06,247 --> 00:42:10,597
It, it connects to the point I
made earlier about the way public
716
00:42:10,597 --> 00:42:14,647
power has been squeezed in,
in, in the type of capitalist,
717
00:42:15,097 --> 00:42:16,627
political economy we have built.
718
00:42:16,927 --> 00:42:19,767
This is true, but here is
where they're mistaken.
719
00:42:19,837 --> 00:42:23,343
And a lot of the work I do, to create
the spaces for these innovations, is
720
00:42:23,343 --> 00:42:29,793
to look at a participatory theory of
power that says, when you share power,
721
00:42:30,243 --> 00:42:32,283
you generate power you didn't have.
722
00:42:32,853 --> 00:42:36,723
By sharing power, you're
generating capacity, mobilising
723
00:42:36,723 --> 00:42:38,313
resources that you didn't have.
724
00:42:38,493 --> 00:42:42,743
The case of green participatory
budgeting, which again, is, is is small
725
00:42:42,743 --> 00:42:46,733
scale and you know, but the potential
is that what you have there is that
726
00:42:46,733 --> 00:42:51,953
by sharing in decision making power
over budgets, you are mobilising a lot
727
00:42:51,953 --> 00:42:56,393
of people and resources and ideas and
energies that you couldn't do if you
728
00:42:56,393 --> 00:42:58,913
were just pulling levers from Edinburgh.
729
00:42:59,813 --> 00:43:04,463
So, once politicians understand
that by sharing power, they generate
730
00:43:04,463 --> 00:43:08,813
new power to get things done and
that that in itself will get them
731
00:43:08,813 --> 00:43:12,443
reelected, that's the theory of change
that they can get on with, right?
732
00:43:13,023 --> 00:43:17,303
And we need to understand that for all
the misrepresentations of the public,
733
00:43:17,303 --> 00:43:20,723
there are also many misrepresentations
of politicians, especially because
734
00:43:20,723 --> 00:43:23,903
we tend to see the ones who made
it to the top of the greasy pole.
735
00:43:24,113 --> 00:43:28,413
And that's like a natural selection
process, where a survival of the
736
00:43:28,573 --> 00:43:32,913
roughest, usually, the ones who put,
could put up with all kinds of things
737
00:43:33,003 --> 00:43:34,833
and do all kinds of unsavoury things.
738
00:43:35,283 --> 00:43:36,933
The majority of politicians
are not like that.
739
00:43:37,893 --> 00:43:38,913
That's, that's the reality.
740
00:43:39,753 --> 00:43:42,633
And a lot of them get there and get
burned out pretty quickly because
741
00:43:42,633 --> 00:43:45,153
of the systems that are in place
and the culture and all of that.
742
00:43:45,423 --> 00:43:46,503
So we need to work with those.
743
00:43:46,503 --> 00:43:49,043
That's where the unlikely
alliances can emerge.
744
00:43:49,733 --> 00:43:55,693
They have a key role to play, but for
them, we need to share these ideas in
745
00:43:55,703 --> 00:43:57,503
ways that make sense in their world.
746
00:43:57,563 --> 00:44:01,883
And their world is absolutely
warped by all kinds of forces that
747
00:44:01,883 --> 00:44:05,746
sometimes we don't take into account,
including, this is what Nancy Fraser
748
00:44:05,746 --> 00:44:09,656
calls this a stage of capitalism,
she calls it Cannibal Capitalism.
749
00:44:09,846 --> 00:44:13,756
This is not the capitalism I grew up
with, the social democratic pact where
750
00:44:13,756 --> 00:44:17,641
there was an understanding the the
capitalist economy, if it's tamed, it
751
00:44:17,836 --> 00:44:22,726
have some… you know, in Spain in the
eighties, for the first time I got
752
00:44:22,726 --> 00:44:24,196
to go to school, my parents didn't.
753
00:44:24,406 --> 00:44:27,456
I I got to, you know, a whole
service, these are material real
754
00:44:27,456 --> 00:44:29,436
things right, that you can get.
755
00:44:29,826 --> 00:44:32,556
In that case, it was that
social democratic pact where the
756
00:44:32,556 --> 00:44:36,306
understanding was that capitalism
left to its own devices, ungoverned
757
00:44:37,896 --> 00:44:39,326
it, it will, it will destroy us.
758
00:44:39,326 --> 00:44:43,136
Now, now we are back onto that, we
are back onto that moment in which
759
00:44:43,406 --> 00:44:49,016
capitalism is devouring the conditions
for its own existence: labour nature,
760
00:44:49,391 --> 00:44:54,041
care labour, particularly all kinds
of extractivism and exploitations,
761
00:44:54,461 --> 00:44:55,991
because it doesn't really care.
762
00:44:55,991 --> 00:44:58,511
It doesn't, it doesn't have a conscious
that says, "well, if I continue like
763
00:44:58,511 --> 00:45:00,261
this, I won't exist in 50 years".
764
00:45:00,551 --> 00:45:04,511
What we have done is this, we have built
institutions, economic institutions,
765
00:45:04,511 --> 00:45:09,934
political institutions, market
institutions that are designed for the
766
00:45:09,934 --> 00:45:14,904
short term . That's why we struggle with
any pensions, housing, climate, of course,
767
00:45:15,174 --> 00:45:18,594
any long term thing, our institutions
are just not designed for that, which is
768
00:45:18,594 --> 00:45:20,674
another case for participatory processes.
769
00:45:21,897 --> 00:45:24,716
Osbert: Let's come back then
to sort of a theory of change,
770
00:45:24,716 --> 00:45:26,296
sounds a bit grandiose, but it's,
771
00:45:27,075 --> 00:45:28,580
Oliver Escobar: How are
we gonna change things?
772
00:45:28,580 --> 00:45:28,980
That's what that means.
773
00:45:28,980 --> 00:45:29,940
Osbert: How are we gonna change things?
774
00:45:30,413 --> 00:45:32,813
What does that, what does that
look like in practical terms?
775
00:45:32,813 --> 00:45:37,403
What can people, working in different
spaces, different levels, layers
776
00:45:37,403 --> 00:45:41,003
or whatever, what can they actually
start doing differently tomorrow to
777
00:45:41,003 --> 00:45:43,333
start moving and shifting things?
778
00:45:43,523 --> 00:45:43,823
Oliver Escobar: Okay.
779
00:45:44,123 --> 00:45:47,273
So I'll give you first the grand headline
780
00:45:47,273 --> 00:45:47,573
Osbert: Yeah.
781
00:45:47,573 --> 00:45:49,163
Oliver Escobar: and then I'll
get to the practical side.
782
00:45:49,403 --> 00:45:52,673
So the grand headline headline
is this, I mean, the issues we're
783
00:45:52,673 --> 00:45:57,473
facing, the existential crisis that
we are facing, it is, it's, we should
784
00:45:57,533 --> 00:45:58,943
stop calling it the climate crisis.
785
00:45:58,943 --> 00:46:00,593
It really is a crisis of humanity.
786
00:46:00,623 --> 00:46:00,683
Yeah.
787
00:46:00,833 --> 00:46:00,953
Yeah.
788
00:46:01,013 --> 00:46:03,353
Because it has so many
interrelated dimensions.
789
00:46:03,383 --> 00:46:03,823
Right.
790
00:46:04,613 --> 00:46:09,233
This is gonna take nothing less
than the largest alliance between
791
00:46:09,233 --> 00:46:12,403
public power and community power
that we have seen in our lifetimes.
792
00:46:12,883 --> 00:46:13,873
Now what does that mean?
793
00:46:14,293 --> 00:46:17,413
It means the state on its own cannot
do It Communities on their own cannot.
794
00:46:18,568 --> 00:46:22,018
Because some of the forces they need
to reign in are just so powerful.
795
00:46:22,078 --> 00:46:24,058
So we are gonna need
them pulling together.
796
00:46:24,148 --> 00:46:25,378
What does that mean on the ground?
797
00:46:25,648 --> 00:46:29,368
Well, practically just now, if I
think about local government officers
798
00:46:29,368 --> 00:46:33,673
in Scotland just now, there is new
legislation, community wealth building,
799
00:46:34,708 --> 00:46:38,688
passed the Scottish Parliament last
year, is now a piece of legislation.
800
00:46:38,958 --> 00:46:40,788
Policy guidance is being developed.
801
00:46:40,938 --> 00:46:44,598
Now we come to implementation and
capacity, and this is usually when
802
00:46:44,598 --> 00:46:48,768
things start to go, in a more mixed, way.
803
00:46:49,908 --> 00:46:54,708
So local government officers need to, this
is the moment many of them are doing this.
804
00:46:54,888 --> 00:46:57,048
This is the moment to realign.
805
00:46:57,453 --> 00:46:59,763
Local partnerships in this direction.
806
00:47:00,033 --> 00:47:05,313
If you want a green community wealth
building agenda that turns local economies
807
00:47:05,313 --> 00:47:10,413
into less extractivism or non-racist
community based economies, where the
808
00:47:10,413 --> 00:47:14,013
private sector, the community sector,
and the public sector pull together in
809
00:47:14,013 --> 00:47:19,863
the right direction, to rewire local
economies and them generate enough power
810
00:47:19,953 --> 00:47:24,453
across a federated network of community
economies to then tackle the next level
811
00:47:24,453 --> 00:47:28,713
of economic development, for that to
happen it starts with local conversations,
812
00:47:28,923 --> 00:47:31,863
local partnerships, building on things
that sometimes are already there.
813
00:47:31,863 --> 00:47:33,903
In some places they already
have some of these things.
814
00:47:34,203 --> 00:47:37,113
Now the legislation itself is
gonna mandate these partnerships,
815
00:47:37,353 --> 00:47:38,433
but here comes the risk.
816
00:47:38,463 --> 00:47:41,733
We've been here before, we were
here before with community planning
817
00:47:41,733 --> 00:47:44,493
partnerships with health and social
care integration partnerships.
818
00:47:44,703 --> 00:47:46,083
We've done a lot of research on this.
819
00:47:46,343 --> 00:47:47,498
A lot of these things fail.
820
00:47:48,563 --> 00:47:54,713
Because often, at this local level,
apart from the scepticism and
821
00:47:54,713 --> 00:47:58,753
lack of resources, we are not just
changing practises and policies.
822
00:47:58,753 --> 00:48:00,583
We are changing culture.
823
00:48:00,883 --> 00:48:04,483
You can change the structures
easily, much, much more easily
824
00:48:04,573 --> 00:48:05,233
than sometimes we think.
825
00:48:05,653 --> 00:48:09,253
Where it's really difficult to change
is culture, elitist culture, for
826
00:48:09,253 --> 00:48:14,083
example, the culture that says that,
certain people know better than others,
827
00:48:14,173 --> 00:48:18,133
rather than certain people or all
of us have a piece of the puzzle and
828
00:48:18,133 --> 00:48:21,013
we need to create the table where we
pull those pieces together, right?
829
00:48:21,403 --> 00:48:25,093
That, that kind of thing happens when
you have really good facilitators,
830
00:48:25,093 --> 00:48:28,423
brokers, organisers, sometimes they're
in the public sector, sometimes they're
831
00:48:28,423 --> 00:48:29,773
in the third or community sector.
832
00:48:30,223 --> 00:48:34,963
So it starts with those practical things
using existing legislation as a platform.
833
00:48:35,353 --> 00:48:39,193
Now, it then also requires
shifting where resources go.
834
00:48:39,493 --> 00:48:43,243
It's been a long time that the Scottish
government doesn't make a proper
835
00:48:43,243 --> 00:48:44,953
statement about community funding.
836
00:48:45,493 --> 00:48:46,333
They used to do them.
837
00:48:46,333 --> 00:48:51,163
I mean, a, a few years back I
sat at the board of, the Scottish
838
00:48:51,163 --> 00:48:53,013
Regeneration Network SURF.
839
00:48:53,503 --> 00:48:57,973
A a really, really good, advocate
and broker for the, for this field
840
00:48:58,266 --> 00:49:01,776
and, you know, we were talking about
a new communities fund that was
841
00:49:01,776 --> 00:49:05,586
coming down, the Scottish government
pipeline, around 20 million.
842
00:49:05,736 --> 00:49:08,256
And people were saying, oh,
finally a little bit of investment.
843
00:49:08,886 --> 00:49:13,116
And the chair back then, who's
now retired, stood up and said,
844
00:49:13,896 --> 00:49:17,706
just really, we've really been
fooled here because 20 years ago
845
00:49:18,306 --> 00:49:20,196
we were talking about 120 million.
846
00:49:20,256 --> 00:49:23,466
And now we are glad that we
are, that we are, you know,
847
00:49:23,674 --> 00:49:24,604
Osbert: shifting baselines.
848
00:49:25,009 --> 00:49:25,729
Oliver Escobar: a hundred percent.
849
00:49:25,909 --> 00:49:30,822
Now, if we are talking about hundreds
of billions being channelled towards,
850
00:49:31,161 --> 00:49:35,344
some of the most unsavoury parts of
the private sector, including, fossil
851
00:49:35,344 --> 00:49:40,384
fuel interests and all kinds of
other extractivism, business models.
852
00:49:41,074 --> 00:49:44,554
Why, why, what is
stopping us from shifting?
853
00:49:44,584 --> 00:49:46,924
And just even just a 10%.
854
00:49:46,924 --> 00:49:47,889
Osbert: Okay, I can
agree with all of that,
855
00:49:47,949 --> 00:49:48,159
Oliver Escobar: right
856
00:49:48,354 --> 00:49:52,104
Osbert: But that starts feeling
like that's a sort of, they should.
857
00:49:52,689 --> 00:49:53,289
Oliver Escobar: No, no, no.
858
00:49:53,289 --> 00:49:54,324
Osbert: where does this come back to?
859
00:49:54,324 --> 00:49:58,724
Well, what can, What can people listening
to this conversation, what can they do in
860
00:49:58,724 --> 00:50:00,184
their work where they are at the moment?
861
00:50:00,184 --> 00:50:03,214
Those who are working in the public
sector might want say, okay, I'm gonna a
862
00:50:03,214 --> 00:50:07,594
bit more of an effort to revitalise that
community group project we were involved
863
00:50:07,594 --> 00:50:10,014
with, and maybe see if we can introduce
participatory budgeting or whatever.
864
00:50:10,294 --> 00:50:12,784
Oliver Escobar: Okay, so here's the
thing where, these things connect.
865
00:50:13,144 --> 00:50:16,384
'cause you mentioned there are projects,
and this is, this is the problem, right?
866
00:50:16,489 --> 00:50:20,064
One of the issues is the projectification
ification of democracy, the
867
00:50:20,074 --> 00:50:21,704
projectification of so many things.
868
00:50:22,169 --> 00:50:24,074
What we need is not
new community projects.
869
00:50:24,074 --> 00:50:27,764
What we need is new community
and civic institutions that
870
00:50:27,764 --> 00:50:29,324
work with public institutions.
871
00:50:29,504 --> 00:50:34,004
So a lot of these examples I gave, I see
them as proto institutions of the future.
872
00:50:34,184 --> 00:50:36,674
They might look slightly different,
but we are learning along the way.
873
00:50:37,004 --> 00:50:41,564
Now, once you begin to lay those
foundations, once you begin to create
874
00:50:41,564 --> 00:50:46,187
community economies that are much more
grounded and where you mobilise local
875
00:50:46,187 --> 00:50:51,077
power and you assets and resources and
you take more control over these things,
876
00:50:51,107 --> 00:50:55,727
again, community wealth building being one
of the instruments or programmes for this.
877
00:50:55,937 --> 00:51:00,662
Once you begin to do that, then
institutions at other levels
878
00:51:00,992 --> 00:51:02,342
begin to pay more attention.
879
00:51:02,672 --> 00:51:05,402
The reason they begin to pay more
attention is because ultimately
880
00:51:05,492 --> 00:51:09,662
they need to get certain things done
to retain their own legitimacy and
881
00:51:09,662 --> 00:51:11,432
licence to practise, so to speak.
882
00:51:11,702 --> 00:51:16,562
So the way we get to that shift in this
mega resources is by getting to a point
883
00:51:16,562 --> 00:51:21,812
where community power and public power are
at the level where they can be fearless
884
00:51:21,992 --> 00:51:24,962
because they're not fearing that this
corporation is gonna pull out of this
885
00:51:24,962 --> 00:51:28,232
community because this community doesn't
depend on that corporation anymore.
886
00:51:28,412 --> 00:51:31,022
And that corporation is there with
a licence to practise that has
887
00:51:31,022 --> 00:51:33,722
a social underpinning framework.
888
00:51:33,962 --> 00:51:38,612
Now, to get that, it starts with
this local action and, and focused
889
00:51:38,612 --> 00:51:42,182
action and local, not just in the
sense of place, but institutions.
890
00:51:42,422 --> 00:51:43,622
What we have at the moment is.
891
00:51:44,402 --> 00:51:47,672
We have a lot of people within
institutions, governments, agencies,
892
00:51:47,762 --> 00:51:51,512
Scotland has over 200 public
institutions, public sector institutions.
893
00:51:51,712 --> 00:51:54,712
We have a lot of people there
who want to be change makers.
894
00:51:55,192 --> 00:51:57,112
Sometimes we assume that
these are monolithic.
895
00:51:57,142 --> 00:52:00,622
They're not, what they are
doing though is burning out.
896
00:52:01,072 --> 00:52:04,132
And they're burning out because
they're facing, you know, cultures
897
00:52:04,132 --> 00:52:07,642
and systems that really don't go in
this direction, but they are fighting
898
00:52:07,672 --> 00:52:09,862
and it's what I call a critical mess.
899
00:52:10,247 --> 00:52:11,092
It is these bits and bumps.
900
00:52:11,302 --> 00:52:14,152
Now the shift to a critical mass, right,
901
00:52:14,187 --> 00:52:15,687
this happens through the alliances.
902
00:52:15,687 --> 00:52:19,107
This is when you begin to cut across
and create these unlikely alliances.
903
00:52:19,347 --> 00:52:20,097
It has happened.
904
00:52:20,097 --> 00:52:23,037
I mean, some of the regeneration
programmes that have worked well
905
00:52:23,307 --> 00:52:26,937
are programmes that unite public and
community power in this kind of way.
906
00:52:26,997 --> 00:52:31,737
And it starts with officers who often
actually don't have a lot of formal power.
907
00:52:31,797 --> 00:52:36,327
They have soft power creating
the spaces, using the existing
908
00:52:36,387 --> 00:52:38,007
agendas and policy discourses.
909
00:52:38,682 --> 00:52:42,552
In the direction that helps them create
the groundwork for these things to happen.
910
00:52:42,762 --> 00:52:46,062
So for people just now, it just
depends where you are, right?
911
00:52:46,122 --> 00:52:52,797
But if in your, locality or even in your
country, or again, these things are also
912
00:52:52,797 --> 00:52:57,013
happening at transnational level, you have
more of these institutions working around
913
00:52:57,013 --> 00:53:00,923
you, there'll be a lot of things that you
could do with them, and for them, right?
914
00:53:00,923 --> 00:53:05,213
They'll be kind of gathering and
concentrating this critical mass
915
00:53:05,213 --> 00:53:07,643
and generating capacity that
we don't have at the moment.
916
00:53:08,063 --> 00:53:13,883
But to get there, you need to keep
investing when you have the time, try
917
00:53:13,883 --> 00:53:18,143
to invest that time in things that
matter to you, and that build, not
918
00:53:18,143 --> 00:53:22,403
just projects, but local or grounded
institutions that have this new
919
00:53:22,403 --> 00:53:26,393
capacity to translate public will,
public reason into collective action.
920
00:53:26,753 --> 00:53:29,393
And, and sometimes it will be
through traditional politics too.
921
00:53:29,453 --> 00:53:29,543
Yeah.
922
00:53:29,873 --> 00:53:32,453
I mean, some members of the Scottish
Climate Assembly became local
923
00:53:32,453 --> 00:53:36,403
counsellors or, or candidates and
we need more people there as well.
924
00:53:36,733 --> 00:53:43,676
We need to make sure that the, the,
sort of political representatives
925
00:53:44,406 --> 00:53:50,196
pool is not the product of unhelpful
natural selection processes.
926
00:53:50,246 --> 00:53:52,616
Now, once we start talking about
this, then it takes us again to
927
00:53:52,616 --> 00:53:57,566
these big things because again, a
lot of the things in our society
928
00:53:57,566 --> 00:53:59,336
push us in in a different direction.
929
00:53:59,456 --> 00:54:00,266
We don't have time.
930
00:54:00,266 --> 00:54:03,926
We barely have time to take care
of our families and ourselves, let
931
00:54:03,926 --> 00:54:07,666
alone, investing in the democratic
repair of communities, institutions,
932
00:54:07,666 --> 00:54:09,676
organisations, workplaces.
933
00:54:09,676 --> 00:54:09,976
Right.
934
00:54:10,216 --> 00:54:13,786
Which is why personally I am a
big supporter, this is practical,
935
00:54:14,176 --> 00:54:16,146
universal basic income for example.
936
00:54:16,326 --> 00:54:19,853
Or, having an allowance, which is now
being exploring other countries in
937
00:54:19,853 --> 00:54:21,173
Belgium just now they're looking at it.
938
00:54:21,413 --> 00:54:26,513
So having an allowance of civic days or
community days that employers will have
939
00:54:26,513 --> 00:54:30,833
to allocate to you, say, 10 days a year
that you can invest in your community,
940
00:54:31,013 --> 00:54:35,573
whether that's going to a climate
assembly, joining a local community group,
941
00:54:35,783 --> 00:54:40,038
starting a guerilla garden, or joining
a policymaking process at parliament.
942
00:54:40,133 --> 00:54:41,153
That's all up to you.
943
00:54:41,333 --> 00:54:44,093
But this freeing of that time
resource, which is one of the things
944
00:54:44,093 --> 00:54:47,393
that keeps us so subjugated that
will be transformational as well.
945
00:54:47,513 --> 00:54:49,883
So there are these things
that are not, you know, there
946
00:54:49,883 --> 00:54:51,413
are concrete measures, right?
947
00:54:52,543 --> 00:54:55,153
Osbert: You were talking about
people working in the public sector,
948
00:54:56,583 --> 00:55:01,603
And many of them being sort of hungry
for change themselves and I think the
949
00:55:01,603 --> 00:55:07,262
more that any of us who are engaging with
people in any, in any position of power
950
00:55:07,263 --> 00:55:11,223
is like opening up those conversations
to talk about this stuff which matters.
951
00:55:11,583 --> 00:55:14,073
And then working out where's
the common ground and what
952
00:55:14,073 --> 00:55:15,183
can we start doing about it.
953
00:55:15,213 --> 00:55:18,833
And what I'm taking from what you've
said just now, is, that rather than
954
00:55:18,833 --> 00:55:24,906
jumping straight to what project
can we do, is what processes and
955
00:55:24,906 --> 00:55:28,156
institutions might we start trying
to embed 'cause they can have some
956
00:55:28,156 --> 00:55:29,910
longevity that a project never can.
957
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,090
Oliver Escobar: That is the key,
is that anchoring, is the rewiring.
958
00:55:33,270 --> 00:55:36,840
Institution, as a term,
it almost has a bad name.
959
00:55:36,930 --> 00:55:37,320
Right.
960
00:55:37,530 --> 00:55:41,410
But , in the sociology sense, an
institution is not just the formalised
961
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:46,780
ossified structures is just a set of
practises that have acquired a stability
962
00:55:46,780 --> 00:55:50,309
and value because they create some
kind of public good or common good.
963
00:55:51,351 --> 00:55:54,741
What sometimes academics call the
structural issues, which sometimes is,
964
00:55:54,741 --> 00:55:58,311
is alienating because it's, it's things
that feel beyond our control or that way.
965
00:55:58,521 --> 00:56:01,521
But actually it's not quite that,
because every time you're building
966
00:56:01,521 --> 00:56:05,781
a business, every time you start any
kind of community initiative, every
967
00:56:05,781 --> 00:56:09,021
time you start a new research project,
you have choices that you can make.
968
00:56:09,021 --> 00:56:12,581
And all those choices in aggregate is what
makes up the society we live in, right?
969
00:56:12,941 --> 00:56:15,431
It's almost like a, a game
of mutual assumptions.
970
00:56:15,431 --> 00:56:18,911
If we build a world in which it feels
okay, you just need to look after
971
00:56:18,911 --> 00:56:22,331
yourself and then just hope for the best,
don't place too much hope in others.
972
00:56:23,031 --> 00:56:25,931
That's a world that gets reinforced
when we don't have institutions that
973
00:56:25,931 --> 00:56:29,891
show the other side: that yes, we can
come together to enable collective
974
00:56:29,891 --> 00:56:33,491
action that most people will agree
is for a more desirable future.
975
00:56:33,771 --> 00:56:35,661
This is the bit that gives
me hope about my field.
976
00:56:35,661 --> 00:56:37,821
I get to see this, I get
to see all kinds of people.
977
00:56:38,041 --> 00:56:42,061
the question is how do we, you know,
it's so paralysing when we convey
978
00:56:42,061 --> 00:56:45,571
the notion that everything is so
structurally anchored and doomed.
979
00:56:45,811 --> 00:56:45,991
Osbert: Yeah.
980
00:56:45,991 --> 00:56:46,261
Oliver Escobar: That.
981
00:56:47,491 --> 00:56:50,071
our everyday practises, our
everyday lives don't, don't matter.
982
00:56:50,221 --> 00:56:53,881
This is why democratic repair is a really
good term because it speaks to those
983
00:56:53,881 --> 00:56:58,831
everyday mundane things that we do at
work, in family, in community, that, you
984
00:56:58,831 --> 00:57:01,831
know, and that needs new institutions.
985
00:57:01,861 --> 00:57:05,281
This is the, a lot of the work I'm
doing now is to make this point
986
00:57:05,431 --> 00:57:09,091
that needs new institutions, that
channel that in the right ways.
987
00:57:09,271 --> 00:57:12,271
We need to repair existing institutions
and we need to create new ones
988
00:57:12,361 --> 00:57:13,891
that are capable of doing this.
989
00:57:13,951 --> 00:57:17,491
The reason it matters is because that's
gonna be a big part of changing the
990
00:57:17,491 --> 00:57:21,811
broader public narrative, and with that
comes the broader public imagination,
991
00:57:21,871 --> 00:57:26,151
which is a big element of all of this
'cause we are so trapped, in some
992
00:57:26,151 --> 00:57:30,321
of the binaries of the last century:
market / state or micro / macro,
993
00:57:30,321 --> 00:57:33,801
all these binaries that we've become
accustomed to, these are traps.
994
00:57:34,371 --> 00:57:38,151
The Commons is a disrupter of that,
understanding that politics happens in
995
00:57:38,151 --> 00:57:42,591
all kinds of spaces, not just in party
politics is part of that, that democracy
996
00:57:42,591 --> 00:57:46,071
is not just something the official
democratic institutions do, but that
997
00:57:46,071 --> 00:57:49,701
happens in everyday relationships and
the way we build things so that we can
998
00:57:49,701 --> 00:57:51,801
live together and apart in good ways.
999
00:57:52,176 --> 00:57:57,196
And we shouldn't forget that for all the
negative bits and all the downsides and
1000
00:57:57,196 --> 00:58:01,726
all the dark elements and forces at play,
they're just as many on the other side.
1001
00:58:01,816 --> 00:58:06,106
It's just they don't get the platform
right, and that is constraining our public
1002
00:58:06,106 --> 00:58:10,486
imagination, our capacity to think, oh,
there are better ways of doing and being.
1003
00:58:10,756 --> 00:58:14,816
We are really powerful because, our
imagination propels our action.
1004
00:58:14,936 --> 00:58:18,116
But if our imagination is constrained,
our action is constrained.
1005
00:58:18,446 --> 00:58:22,496
And if you get persuaded that this is the
best we can get, that this is the only
1006
00:58:22,496 --> 00:58:26,006
economy possible, that this is the only
way we ensure prosperity, that this is the
1007
00:58:26,006 --> 00:58:28,826
only way we can do politics, then yeah.
1008
00:58:28,826 --> 00:58:30,506
It's a self perpetuating myth.
1009
00:58:31,566 --> 00:58:34,596
Whoa, we've covered a huge
amount of ground there.
1010
00:58:35,016 --> 00:58:37,686
I found it all fascinating,
and I hope you did too.
1011
00:58:38,076 --> 00:58:42,966
But what can we pull outta that
both big ideas and practical action
1012
00:58:42,966 --> 00:58:44,346
that can help us all in our work?
1013
00:58:45,126 --> 00:58:48,846
This is where I hand over to my
co-host, Morag Watson, to introduce
1014
00:58:48,846 --> 00:58:52,596
you to our guest listener, and help
us reflect on what we've heard from
1015
00:58:52,596 --> 00:58:54,516
Oliver and what we can all take from it.
1016
00:58:55,122 --> 00:58:57,032
Morag Watson: So our guest listener is Dr.
1017
00:58:57,032 --> 00:59:01,712
Marian Bruce, who is co-founder and
director of Bioregioning Tayside.
1018
00:59:02,042 --> 00:59:05,822
So Marian we invited you to join us
today because we feel that working
1019
00:59:05,832 --> 00:59:10,652
bioregionally seems to really intersect
with democracy and participation.
1020
00:59:10,952 --> 00:59:15,402
So for our listeners, could you explain
a bit briefly about what is Bioregioning
1021
00:59:15,422 --> 00:59:17,552
Tayside and your role within it?
1022
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,130
maria: So let's start with a
bioregion and what that is.
1023
00:59:21,130 --> 00:59:27,130
So, a bioregion is, is a human
defined ecological unit of landscape.
1024
00:59:27,540 --> 00:59:31,720
It can be river catchment but it
could also be an estuary it could
1025
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:35,470
be an island, it could be a mountain
chain, it could be any kind of thing
1026
00:59:35,470 --> 00:59:41,260
that people feel is their home,
but is also ecologically meaningful.
1027
00:59:41,290 --> 00:59:46,990
And the reason for working in a
bioregional way is exactly that lots
1028
00:59:46,990 --> 00:59:52,115
of our human legal boundaries have
some strange historical meaning,
1029
00:59:52,435 --> 00:59:55,735
they're not really founded in ecology.
1030
00:59:56,245 --> 01:00:02,455
And so if we are wanting to restore
the ecological and the social,
1031
01:00:02,755 --> 01:00:07,435
then it actually feels like a
really useful unit to be working.
1032
01:00:07,515 --> 01:00:10,979
Morag Watson: And Marian, can you
tell us what Bioregioning Tayside
1033
01:00:10,979 --> 01:00:12,719
does and what you do within it?
1034
01:00:13,531 --> 01:00:17,221
maria: Yeah, so I am co-founder along
with Claire Cooper, and we have three
1035
01:00:17,221 --> 01:00:21,871
directors, the other director is
Kevin Frediani and we all met doing
1036
01:00:21,871 --> 01:00:24,021
a bioregioning course during lockdown.
1037
01:00:24,531 --> 01:00:30,736
And, and what we're trying to do is
to connect people across the landscape
1038
01:00:30,856 --> 01:00:35,566
that are restoring nature, that
are creating regenerative business,
1039
01:00:35,866 --> 01:00:37,876
that are working ecologically.
1040
01:00:38,366 --> 01:00:43,796
But it's also trying to provide the
enabling conditions for landscape
1041
01:00:43,796 --> 01:00:51,446
restoration that will positively impact
on, on climate, but will also positively
1042
01:00:51,446 --> 01:00:58,406
impact on local communities, on local
food growing, on community resilience,
1043
01:00:58,816 --> 01:01:03,436
everything that we really need going
into what is a major climate crisis.
1044
01:01:03,626 --> 01:01:09,176
Some projects we do ourselves, but
actually it's about creating that network
1045
01:01:09,176 --> 01:01:14,716
of people that is working together in
a very particular way and have a shared
1046
01:01:14,716 --> 01:01:20,161
vision of nature restoration and
local food and resilient communities.
1047
01:01:20,161 --> 01:01:21,451
Morag Watson: Fantastic, wonderful.
1048
01:01:21,451 --> 01:01:23,071
Thank you for that explanation.
1049
01:01:23,551 --> 01:01:26,791
What we're going to do is we're gonna
be pulling out some of the key points
1050
01:01:26,791 --> 01:01:30,271
of what we heard and what really
stood out for us in what Oliver was
1051
01:01:30,271 --> 01:01:32,371
saying in his interview with Osbert.
1052
01:01:32,761 --> 01:01:38,101
So, Osbert, I'm gonna ask you to start
off, since you spent time with Oliver
1053
01:01:38,101 --> 01:01:42,881
there, just to tell us what were the three
things that really stood out for you.
1054
01:01:45,165 --> 01:01:45,465
Osbert: Yeah.
1055
01:01:45,465 --> 01:01:49,575
So the, the three things which
really stood out for me were,
1056
01:01:49,955 --> 01:01:53,124
building trust through participatory
budgeting and similar processes.
1057
01:01:53,125 --> 01:01:58,320
And the second one again, on trust,
but Oliver said that the main problem
1058
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:05,250
that we're facing is politicians and
institutions are not trusting people and
1059
01:02:05,250 --> 01:02:07,170
keeping all the power to themselves.
1060
01:02:07,713 --> 01:02:11,963
And then the third thing he said, which
I guess is a bit of a flip of that, is
1061
01:02:12,443 --> 01:02:18,383
his view that if politicians actually
were brave enough to share power, when
1062
01:02:18,383 --> 01:02:23,183
they do do that, they find they're
actually generating new power, which
1063
01:02:23,183 --> 01:02:27,353
allows things to get done, including
the things that they want to get done.
1064
01:02:27,743 --> 01:02:29,693
So those are the three
things that jumped out at me.
1065
01:02:29,693 --> 01:02:30,983
There's lots of other stuff as well.
1066
01:02:30,983 --> 01:02:32,333
Those are the three all around?
1067
01:02:32,603 --> 01:02:33,863
Yeah, all around trust in fact.
1068
01:02:35,355 --> 01:02:35,895
Morag Watson: Oh, fantastic.
1069
01:02:35,925 --> 01:02:39,645
O osbert, you and I have obviously
been working together for a long
1070
01:02:39,645 --> 01:02:45,585
time, if that was top of my list as
well, was Oliver's point around trust.
1071
01:02:45,805 --> 01:02:48,742
But a very key one that stood out for
me that was somewhat different was the
1072
01:02:48,742 --> 01:02:53,332
point he made about cognitively in our
heads, and I realised I do this too.
1073
01:02:53,992 --> 01:02:58,372
I think of democracy as being the
political system in which we live.
1074
01:02:58,402 --> 01:03:02,392
The whole thing about it's how we vote,
it's whether or not we have a free
1075
01:03:02,392 --> 01:03:07,102
press and Oliver's point about it's
actually something in our everyday lives.
1076
01:03:07,152 --> 01:03:11,312
Now, Marian, I know that you were also
listening in to all Oliver said to say
1077
01:03:11,312 --> 01:03:15,572
with this, so we're really interested
in what Osbert and I took from this.
1078
01:03:16,412 --> 01:03:17,462
that resonate with you?
1079
01:03:17,462 --> 01:03:19,352
Is that, does that sound familiar?
1080
01:03:20,558 --> 01:03:21,908
maria: Yes, it does.
1081
01:03:21,958 --> 01:03:26,831
And it really resonates with
my experience of working in our
1082
01:03:26,831 --> 01:03:33,141
landscape for, for many years now
because everything is based on trust.
1083
01:03:33,541 --> 01:03:35,876
. And, and I can give you a
really good example of that.
1084
01:03:35,876 --> 01:03:43,616
So in 2015, our small rural town of
Alyth had the most awful flood a flood
1085
01:03:43,646 --> 01:03:45,626
that's never been seen in living memory.
1086
01:03:45,676 --> 01:03:50,276
There were cars floating down the main
street, the town was cut off from all
1087
01:03:50,276 --> 01:03:52,226
the services nobody could get here.
1088
01:03:52,436 --> 01:03:55,646
It was literally just the
people of the town on their own.
1089
01:03:56,096 --> 01:03:58,976
And everybody just came
out and got on with it.
1090
01:03:59,456 --> 01:04:02,366
So within the space of a
few hours, we were already
1091
01:04:02,366 --> 01:04:04,136
cooking meals in the town hall.
1092
01:04:04,376 --> 01:04:09,156
There was already people being re-homed
, there was no kind of oh, who's going
1093
01:04:09,156 --> 01:04:10,866
to take care of this somebody else's?
1094
01:04:10,866 --> 01:04:13,116
There was a, there was
already a resilience in that.
1095
01:04:13,116 --> 01:04:17,526
And that comes from living in a rural
place where everybody does know everybody
1096
01:04:17,526 --> 01:04:23,466
and everybody realises that there really
have to be relying on everybody else.
1097
01:04:23,736 --> 01:04:27,876
And I guess what we're trying to do
with bioregioning that collaboration,
1098
01:04:27,876 --> 01:04:32,226
that bringing all these projects
together to be more than the sum of
1099
01:04:32,226 --> 01:04:37,356
their parts relies on those personal
relationships across the landscape.
1100
01:04:37,731 --> 01:04:42,501
We help people put that together in their
heads from an ecological point of view and
1101
01:04:42,501 --> 01:04:47,691
say, okay, well how do we work together
to achieve these much wider aims, not
1102
01:04:47,691 --> 01:04:55,041
just for every person, but collectively
as a human population of the bioregion.
1103
01:04:55,745 --> 01:04:58,325
Morag Watson: Bringing in something
else Oliver said that I thought was
1104
01:04:58,355 --> 01:05:02,675
very insightful and, and very helpful
is where he talked about moving from
1105
01:05:02,675 --> 01:05:03,965
what he called projectification.
1106
01:05:04,985 --> 01:05:09,385
So again, Mion, I'd be interested
in if you have seen this phenomenon
1107
01:05:09,385 --> 01:05:12,955
start to happen of moving from just
individual projects to building more
1108
01:05:12,955 --> 01:05:18,745
collective institutional approaches, do
you feel that that's not coming forward
1109
01:05:18,745 --> 01:05:20,485
as, as fast as you would like to see?
1110
01:05:21,038 --> 01:05:25,992
Marian Bruce: It is definitely happening,
but it's not happening as fast as it
1111
01:05:25,992 --> 01:05:31,512
needs to happen in the twin crisis
that we're facing at the moment.
1112
01:05:31,852 --> 01:05:36,092
People are coming together to
create organisations and those
1113
01:05:36,092 --> 01:05:41,482
might be development trusts or they
might be ecological organisations
1114
01:05:41,482 --> 01:05:44,182
or river trust organisations.
1115
01:05:44,522 --> 01:05:47,402
People are just going, okay, nobody's
going to do this for us, we are
1116
01:05:47,402 --> 01:05:49,322
going to have to do it ourselves.
1117
01:05:49,322 --> 01:05:53,162
And there are lots of examples
of those that I can think of
1118
01:05:53,162 --> 01:05:55,272
across our, our bioregion.
1119
01:05:55,637 --> 01:06:01,257
Those organisations are filling
a role of local democracy that
1120
01:06:01,257 --> 01:06:04,410
we haven't had for 50 years.
1121
01:06:04,410 --> 01:06:10,410
So there used to be town councils, there
used to be a much stronger local level
1122
01:06:10,410 --> 01:06:13,740
of, of governance, and that disappeared.
1123
01:06:13,740 --> 01:06:17,340
And we have these massive unitary
authorities across Scotland,
1124
01:06:17,910 --> 01:06:21,820
we are missing a whole layer
compared to other places like
1125
01:06:21,850 --> 01:06:23,520
Denmark or Sweden or Switzerland
1126
01:06:23,550 --> 01:06:27,680
. And it's almost like certainly
development trusts have filled that role.
1127
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:31,820
And the reason that they're able to
do that is that actually there is
1128
01:06:31,820 --> 01:06:36,680
funding coming through wind farms
that enable that in rural areas.
1129
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:40,520
So where there have been wind
farms built, there's money that has
1130
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:43,670
to come to a local organisation.
1131
01:06:44,190 --> 01:06:46,350
Morag Watson: Close parts if you
want to come in at this point.
1132
01:06:46,446 --> 01:06:46,896
Osbert Lancaster | Thrivable Scotland:
Yeah.
1133
01:06:46,896 --> 01:06:51,786
Linking that back to something Oliver
was saying was that he was saying that
1134
01:06:51,786 --> 01:06:56,856
a lot of people working inside these
big public institutions, a lot of them
1135
01:06:56,856 --> 01:07:00,676
want to be change makers, they want to
be helping to do the right thing but are
1136
01:07:00,676 --> 01:07:04,006
actually just like burning out inside
these dysfunctional organisations.
1137
01:07:04,572 --> 01:07:08,751
To what extent do you see that
sort of a connection between people
1138
01:07:08,751 --> 01:07:15,141
inside public institutions and
public institutions supporting more
1139
01:07:15,141 --> 01:07:17,301
independent, more locally grounded work?
1140
01:07:17,461 --> 01:07:21,741
maria: There's a lot of, frustration, I
think within council officers of their
1141
01:07:21,741 --> 01:07:25,851
inability to really deliver what people
are wanting and they're bound by all
1142
01:07:25,851 --> 01:07:29,901
this regulation that they have to do it
this way or do it that way or whatever.
1143
01:07:30,231 --> 01:07:34,875
It can work, but sometimes
it can go very wrong as well.
1144
01:07:34,875 --> 01:07:38,785
And I'm thinking of a meeting a few
years ago about participatory budgeting.
1145
01:07:39,025 --> 01:07:44,445
The problem with participatory
budgeting is not the participation,
1146
01:07:44,865 --> 01:07:46,455
it's actually the budgeting.
1147
01:07:46,515 --> 01:07:52,305
Because often in these cases,
individual projects, and again, we're
1148
01:07:52,305 --> 01:07:57,481
talking about projectifcation, they
are pitted against each other and
1149
01:07:57,481 --> 01:07:59,611
they're in competition with each other.
1150
01:07:59,911 --> 01:08:04,171
So you are pitching for funding
because there's not enough for
1151
01:08:04,201 --> 01:08:05,251
to go around for everything.
1152
01:08:05,251 --> 01:08:07,801
But actually that creates
a huge amount of division.
1153
01:08:08,581 --> 01:08:14,341
And one meeting that we, I remember
going to, when many, many community
1154
01:08:14,341 --> 01:08:18,581
groups were at that were, it was called
by the council about this particular
1155
01:08:18,821 --> 01:08:24,161
new participatory budgeting mechanism
was that everybody said, well, why don't
1156
01:08:24,161 --> 01:08:28,751
you just split the money and give it to
the existing organisations rather than
1157
01:08:28,751 --> 01:08:32,140
creating another layer of administration?
1158
01:08:32,591 --> 01:08:33,640
Why don't we just split it?
1159
01:08:34,181 --> 01:08:38,201
And they didn't like that
because it didn't fit their
1160
01:08:38,531 --> 01:08:43,841
idea of what participatory
budgeting should be or could be.
1161
01:08:44,020 --> 01:08:46,541
And so it was, so, it was really
interesting that they had almost
1162
01:08:46,541 --> 01:08:48,461
been told that you need to do this.
1163
01:08:48,461 --> 01:08:51,551
They were wanting this tick box exercise,
and everybody who turned up to that
1164
01:08:51,551 --> 01:08:55,421
meeting kinda went, well, actually,
nobody has time to go to another set
1165
01:08:55,421 --> 01:08:57,220
of meetings to arrange all of this.
1166
01:08:57,581 --> 01:08:58,961
Osbert Lancaster | Thrivable Scotland:
I think this comes back to trust.
1167
01:08:59,020 --> 01:09:02,890
This comes back to there has to be,
there has to be seen to be a system in
1168
01:09:02,890 --> 01:09:05,081
place because there's no trust in place.
1169
01:09:06,404 --> 01:09:09,424
Marian you talked at the beginning
of that bio-regional vision of working
1170
01:09:09,453 --> 01:09:13,904
or being aware of that larger region,
which very often in Scotland has
1171
01:09:13,904 --> 01:09:17,234
mapped onto many of the big regional
authorities we had in the past.
1172
01:09:17,804 --> 01:09:20,124
But the examples have
all been local action.
1173
01:09:20,124 --> 01:09:21,624
How do those two things match up?
1174
01:09:22,126 --> 01:09:25,576
maria: But I think going back to
the Bioregioning, I mean, yes,
1175
01:09:25,576 --> 01:09:27,586
the Tay River catchment is huge.
1176
01:09:27,586 --> 01:09:30,071
We, we right on the eastern edge of that.
1177
01:09:30,151 --> 01:09:32,821
But actually what's happening
in Kinloch Rannoch, I don't
1178
01:09:32,821 --> 01:09:33,991
really know that much about them.
1179
01:09:34,051 --> 01:09:36,421
And that's why we've gone
for this sub catchment.
1180
01:09:36,421 --> 01:09:42,411
Each sub catchment of the River
Tay is actually a reasonable area
1181
01:09:42,441 --> 01:09:45,890
where people do know each other
and they are working together.
1182
01:09:46,041 --> 01:09:50,241
And it's not so many people that
actually you, you can't have
1183
01:09:50,241 --> 01:09:54,981
this local knowledge and local
interaction at a very easy level.
1184
01:09:55,191 --> 01:09:59,024
So we're trying to use these sub
catchments as a nested system
1185
01:09:59,084 --> 01:10:02,264
and then that they all come
together into, into bigger system.
1186
01:10:02,849 --> 01:10:07,499
Oliver talked also about living
together and living apart.
1187
01:10:07,619 --> 01:10:13,359
Our modern world has very successfully
disconnected people from each other.
1188
01:10:13,869 --> 01:10:18,279
So we're all connecting online, but we're
not actually meeting people in person.
1189
01:10:18,639 --> 01:10:22,029
We're not actually doing
as many things together.
1190
01:10:22,059 --> 01:10:25,429
What we're trying to do with the way
of working within the bioregion as
1191
01:10:25,429 --> 01:10:30,379
well, is actually reversing that, is
bringing people physically together.
1192
01:10:30,379 --> 01:10:34,699
And again, that sub catchment level
is, is real easy because on a practical
1193
01:10:34,699 --> 01:10:39,979
level, you have to have people meeting
to actually do those things face to face.
1194
01:10:40,369 --> 01:10:43,959
A number of projects that we run,
actually with a Swiss University,
1195
01:10:44,089 --> 01:10:49,856
ETH Zurich was about envisioning the
landscape working with a strategy
1196
01:10:49,856 --> 01:10:54,846
game it allows people to take different
roles, and actually understand the
1197
01:10:54,846 --> 01:10:57,636
pressures that are on different people.
1198
01:10:57,636 --> 01:11:02,826
And that was a really interesting
exploration of how difficult it is to
1199
01:11:02,826 --> 01:11:08,736
actually come to a shared vision and
how many different kinds of interests
1200
01:11:08,736 --> 01:11:14,896
there are across a very, small landscape
and how those interact and how you need
1201
01:11:14,896 --> 01:11:20,236
to really work at that personal level
to ensure that everybody has got this
1202
01:11:20,236 --> 01:11:25,226
shared vision of what needs to happen
in order to restore ecosystems, to stop
1203
01:11:25,226 --> 01:11:28,861
flooding, to, create food, to do all of
the things, that we're wanting to do.
1204
01:11:28,861 --> 01:11:33,751
So it's really difficult
work because it takes time.
1205
01:11:33,871 --> 01:11:38,671
You are building trust that is only
done by face-to-face interaction.
1206
01:11:39,721 --> 01:11:43,361
Morag Watson: so having listened to
what Oliver has to say, what might
1207
01:11:43,361 --> 01:11:47,591
people working in sustainability in
Scotland consider doing differently
1208
01:11:48,221 --> 01:11:51,791
in light of what we've heard
from Oliver's insights and ideas?
1209
01:11:52,271 --> 01:11:55,031
So, Osbert, do you want
to start us off on that?
1210
01:11:55,537 --> 01:11:56,884
Osbert Lancaster | Thrivable Scotland:
I'm thinking here of , people
1211
01:11:56,884 --> 01:12:02,511
who are leading NGOs or managing
projects, people working in policy
1212
01:12:02,541 --> 01:12:05,301
community groups in local authorities.
1213
01:12:05,417 --> 01:12:09,247
I'd encourage them to do is stop
treating everything as being a project,
1214
01:12:09,524 --> 01:12:15,814
actually look at how we can start
building more local processes and local
1215
01:12:15,814 --> 01:12:17,934
institutions in ways that build trust.
1216
01:12:18,682 --> 01:12:19,192
Morag Watson: Fantastic.
1217
01:12:20,362 --> 01:12:25,252
And Marian, if I come to you next,
what's one thing that people listening
1218
01:12:25,252 --> 01:12:29,182
to this could start to do differently
based on, on what we've heard today?
1219
01:12:31,610 --> 01:12:36,920
maria: I think people need to
be more involved in democracy.
1220
01:12:37,370 --> 01:12:44,990
It feels like democracy in Scotland is
actually very young because we've only
1221
01:12:44,990 --> 01:12:47,750
since 1999 had a Scottish Parliament.
1222
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:56,190
I remember growing up feeling like I had
absolutely no way of influencing what
1223
01:12:56,190 --> 01:13:00,480
was happening in our country because it
was all just happening in Westminster.
1224
01:13:00,809 --> 01:13:01,800
Well, that's changed.
1225
01:13:01,850 --> 01:13:07,070
But it feels like we're not really used to
using it in the way that it could be used.
1226
01:13:07,550 --> 01:13:09,485
So I would say get out and use it.
1227
01:13:10,397 --> 01:13:13,407
Morag Watson: For me, the one
thing is the, the point that Oliver
1228
01:13:13,407 --> 01:13:19,257
made about sharing power generates
more power to get things done.
1229
01:13:19,677 --> 01:13:24,027
So for any of our listeners who are in
a position of power, who are convening
1230
01:13:24,027 --> 01:13:27,957
these processes, who are looking to
bring people in, I think that's a really
1231
01:13:27,957 --> 01:13:32,637
important thing to hold onto, that you're
not giving away power, you're bringing
1232
01:13:32,637 --> 01:13:34,767
in more capacity to get things done.
1233
01:13:35,217 --> 01:13:40,157
And for those of our listeners who are
working in projects who maybe do not have
1234
01:13:40,157 --> 01:13:44,957
control of the budget or the process and
so on, that is a leverage point that you
1235
01:13:44,957 --> 01:13:51,947
can bring of evidence that actually help
the people in power get the things done
1236
01:13:51,947 --> 01:13:53,886
by them allowing you into the process.
1237
01:13:54,886 --> 01:13:57,436
maria: the point that that
talks to that directly from
1238
01:13:57,436 --> 01:13:59,116
our co-director, Kevin Frediani.
1239
01:13:59,616 --> 01:14:03,846
And it's the reason for the
degradation of the environment that
1240
01:14:03,846 --> 01:14:08,996
we've seen is that we've lost the
love for our country, for our land.
1241
01:14:08,996 --> 01:14:14,196
I think that was , really interesting
that he brought that fact up about
1242
01:14:14,196 --> 01:14:17,856
power that you, the more you give,
then actually the more you have.
1243
01:14:17,916 --> 01:14:21,778
It's exactly the same with
love, the more love you give
1244
01:14:21,778 --> 01:14:23,788
away, the more love you have.
1245
01:14:24,844 --> 01:14:29,554
Morag Watson: So to finish us off,
what's one thing that you personally
1246
01:14:29,943 --> 01:14:33,943
are planning to do differently having
listened to what Oliver had to say?
1247
01:14:34,407 --> 01:14:37,677
Osbert: For me, the big
thing is, again, is trust.
1248
01:14:37,677 --> 01:14:41,337
And I've, I've been convinced
about the importance of trust for
1249
01:14:41,397 --> 01:14:45,027
building common ground, finding
solutions together and collaborating.
1250
01:14:45,807 --> 01:14:49,347
But I hadn't really thought much
about trust on a sort of the larger
1251
01:14:49,347 --> 01:14:52,797
scale at the level of national
and local politics and climate
1252
01:14:52,797 --> 01:14:54,267
assemblies and all that kind of stuff.
1253
01:14:55,017 --> 01:15:00,207
And I, I still need to think about this,
but there's something here about how like
1254
01:15:00,237 --> 01:15:05,367
many of the same processes and approaches
for like, for building trust and for
1255
01:15:05,367 --> 01:15:11,607
like listening and stuff like that being
really important and at multiple levels,
1256
01:15:12,567 --> 01:15:16,257
perhaps there's something here about,
like a sort of fractal change making.
1257
01:15:16,257 --> 01:15:18,482
So yeah, that's what I'm gonna
take, gonna reflect on that.
1258
01:15:19,087 --> 01:15:21,307
Morag Watson: And Marian, what's the
one thing that you're gonna take away?
1259
01:15:22,773 --> 01:15:28,923
maria: I think the one thing is this idea
of co-creation and co-production that,
1260
01:15:28,983 --> 01:15:34,743
that Oliver talked about so actually
doing things together, planning things
1261
01:15:34,743 --> 01:15:40,713
together, working on projects together,
that social interaction, that co-creation
1262
01:15:40,743 --> 01:15:42,993
is the thing that we are missing.
1263
01:15:43,443 --> 01:15:47,673
And it is really difficult to do, but I
think that's at the heart of everything.
1264
01:15:47,673 --> 01:15:50,913
And if we can get some of that back,
then we'll be in a much better place.
1265
01:15:51,461 --> 01:15:54,911
Morag Watson: And for me it's
a mind shift similar to yours,
1266
01:15:54,911 --> 01:15:56,921
Osbert, something that Oliver said.
1267
01:15:56,921 --> 01:16:02,171
Having spent the last 25 years of my
career working in politics, stop thinking
1268
01:16:02,171 --> 01:16:07,211
of democracy as a political system and
something that institutions and others do.
1269
01:16:07,601 --> 01:16:11,471
It is a, a lived experience that
we all need to do and think of
1270
01:16:11,471 --> 01:16:16,841
democracy in a much more in-depth,
broad, nuanced way that goes through
1271
01:16:16,841 --> 01:16:20,171
all levels of our society and the
way that we act as institutions.
1272
01:16:20,171 --> 01:16:22,961
So for me to, to carry in mind.
1273
01:16:24,401 --> 01:16:28,271
So as ever with these conversations,
there's endless things that we
1274
01:16:28,271 --> 01:16:31,421
could talk about, but we should
maybe call it to a close there.
1275
01:16:31,421 --> 01:16:33,861
So thank you very much Dr.
1276
01:16:33,861 --> 01:16:37,661
Marian Bruce for joining us today
and sharing your insights and all
1277
01:16:37,661 --> 01:16:42,471
the things that are happening in
Bioregioning Tayside, Osbert for going
1278
01:16:42,471 --> 01:16:46,281
out there and getting that interview
from Oliver, which has brought so much
1279
01:16:46,281 --> 01:16:48,021
fascinating food for thought to us.
1280
01:16:48,351 --> 01:16:51,021
And thank you everyone for
joining us for this conversation.
1281
01:16:51,241 --> 01:16:52,291
Osbert: And there you have it.
1282
01:16:52,651 --> 01:16:55,441
You'll find links to people,
organisations, and resources
1283
01:16:55,441 --> 01:16:56,821
mentioned in the show notes.
1284
01:16:57,301 --> 01:17:00,421
I'd love to hear your thoughts about
what you've heard or any questions you
1285
01:17:00,421 --> 01:17:04,921
have or indeed suggestions, for future
topics, interviewees and guest listeners,
1286
01:17:05,371 --> 01:17:09,466
just email [email protected].
1287
01:17:09,875 --> 01:17:14,525
For more ideas, practical tools, events
and opportunities for networking, check
1288
01:17:14,525 --> 01:17:17,285
out our website, Thrivable scotland.com
1289
01:17:17,555 --> 01:17:19,355
and sign up for my newsletter.
1290
01:17:19,955 --> 01:17:23,920
Let's explore what works for people
and nature in the polycrisis together.
