Ep 4: Mike Quinn was an entrepreneur with a dream. He wanted to create a cashless Africa, bringing financial control to the unbanked. He co-founded Zoona - hailed as Africa’s first FinTech unicorn - which could make his dream a reality. But things didn’t turn out quite as he planned. 

Business psychologist Hazel Showell sits down with Mike to examine how he coped with the reality of his dream failing to materialise. Hazel considers Mike’s decision-making process and the importance of trusting gut instincts, at the most high-stakes moments. 

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[00:00:12] Mike Quinn: We got to a point where there was a fire, we couldn't put out the fire, we couldn't put out.

Although things didn't turn out quite as he planned. Throughout his career, Mike has followed his gut instinct, otherwise causing thematic decision-making. After you hear Mike's story, I'll explain just how important it is when making pivotal decisions, both personally and professionally. But first, let's go back to the beginning.

Mike was a mechanical engineering student in Vancouver but in his own words,

[00:01:05] Hazel Showell: so he decided to look for something more purpose

And those were very formative years for me because I was working with small-scale enterprises in rural areas like communities without electricity, family-owned businesses, and small entrepreneurs. And I just learned a lot about the challenges that people were facing, like in their day-to-day lives.

[00:01:46] Mike Quinn: I had the idea of being an entrepreneur and connecting the entrepreneurs on the ground who were building scalable businesses with investors that were in the global north.

[00:01:59] Mike Quinn: plane, uh, flew back to Zambia and met these two brothers who were building one of the first fintech in Africa.

And it was their vision of a cashless Africa, right? That kind of captivated me.

[00:02:23] Mike Quinn: We were processing 60 plus million dollars US per month of, of transactions with like a, a person-to-person money transfer product, and we'd raised over 25 million or even a bit more of, of venture capital as one of the first, uh, really impact-driven startups in Africa.

We'd gone through so many ups and downs. And I, I felt kind of invincible. Like I, I was learning that entrepreneurship is really around the ability to just persevere.

[00:02:53] Mike Quinn: You know, when you're running outta cash, you're running outta cash. Uh, and that, that momentum, you know, the negative momentum builds

Mike was reliant on a 40 million funding deal. He just had to fly to London and sign the. On touching down, turned on his phone,

[00:03:27] Hazel Showell: So you got off the plane after a long haul flight, you get the news that this deal has fallen through one the world you do.

And they all knew that I got, like, I flew there to close it and so I, I felt the weight of that ex like, expectation and I just like, I almost couldn't deal with this, this horrible news. And I then had to go to a board meeting the next morning. , you know, and I, I'd broken the news and had a few phone calls.

People were very supportive, but they're like, let's talk about it in the meeting. And then I, I went to the board meeting and I had this, uh, this presentation around like, you know, here's the strategy going forward and we were gonna become this digital bank, launch all these new products and, and, you know, we had finally the capital to achieve everything that was part of our long-term vision.

And I, I remember starting this meeting saying, well, We've worked hard to get to this point, and I think we deserve the, the kind of the time to, to like, as management to like present what this vision is because like we can find another investor. I was still almost in denial and in problem-solving mode and I'm like, doesn't mean our strategy's wrong, the investor changed course, but like the business is still good.

The, you know, everybody loves the strategy and the team and the product and the culture. We've been talking about this for months. And it was, it was pretty clear that I had like lost the room and uh, I think, I can't remember who said it, but somebody eventually was like, you know, I think we just, we need to start being more realistic and talking about like, is this the time to start pursuing a sale of the company?

Right. And I was like, I couldn't even like a process that this was happening. It was just, uh, it was so hard. We ended up, ended up having like a good meeting and, and, uh, it was like very somber, but like getting to the end of it. And like, we had a couple of different plans and we're like, okay. You know, we could try to find some new money.

We could try to look at like, a partial sale to get cash in. We could try to do like a cut, like of our staff and like a restructuring. And it was just, I was, it took me a while, but like I, from that point forward, I was like working 24 hours a day, right? When I was sleeping, I was working, my mind was thinking about all the things that needed to happen, and it was like a very complex Rubik's cube.

Just like the stress levels went through the roof and I can't even remember some of it to be honest. Like I was just like almost in a flow state and some of it was like very productive, but then other parts were just like facing a cliff and you're about to like run off it. So you need to like, Act here and now.

Yeah.

It's

But when you experience. and you think, no, that's exactly what it is. It's like you're grieving but you don't even know it at the time. Is grieving even down to the need to just go to sleep? It's cuz your brain shuts down. I'm fascinated when saying rubbish decisions. Well, no surprise you think when you're that much in shock and that much in emotional pain, it's like you're part of your frontal lobe shuts down

So you're probably making the worst decisions of your professional career. And yet you're in charge of a moving organization, So I suppose that's the interesting thing, as you say that it's not something you would want to go through. It's not something you'd wish on anybody. And yeah, it's, you've turned something around from it.

I think that's what I wanted to do for, you know, most of our conversation was to sort of pick up that story from the point when you're making this painful process of, of leaving as to how you picked yourself up. So from the moment you decided, or the moment you that. No longer c e o. You've walked away from a business you've invested 10 years in.

What did you do? I

But people kind of saw the writing on the wall at that point. But I, I felt the company would be in good hands and secure, and then I knew I was exhausted and I immediately felt this urge to like start again into almost like prove to myself, but also to everybody else that I was still relevant. I, I remember I had like, wasn't somebody I I, I particularly talked to anymore, but like, who, who told me he is like, oh yeah, like you gotta get used to the fact that you're not a CEO anymore.

And I'm like, no. Like I am a CEO just not of this business. , right? I'm like, it wasn't a very helpful comment, but it kind of, sunk in where I'm just like, oh, like all these people, like aren't gonna see me as relevant anymore. And it like almost fed into. , you know, a desire to like do the next thing or jump into something and start something new.

And then, of course, everybody is asking two questions like, what happened and what are you gonna do next? Um, and you know, if, if I was like young and single, I would've gone and traveled the world. I had two, you know, two young kids and I, I just, you know, I dropped them off to school and I picked them up at the end of the day.

And during the. , I went for walks. I, I went hiking and I mountain biked and like, you know, I've never hiked by myself before. I'm very extroverted. So, you know, a lot of thinking. And I, I started enjoying it. And then where it was, my mind started clearing. It was probably harder on my wife during that period because then the stress started transferring to her of like, oh, well, we're gonna, we're single income.

Like, I, I didn't, didn't get a cash-out or anything. Are we gonna lose the house that we bought recently, the first house we bought together? She was, uh, not in a particularly great paying job, so she needed to start looking around. So like this, you know, I, I was kind of on my, my walkabout, like, I'm like, oh, I'm starting to enjoy this.

Like, uh, not going to the office and de-stressing. And, um, but it, it, she had to pick up the slack a little bit, but it, it ended up being like a, an amazing time. And then, I didn't kind of set off to write a book, but I got to the point where through the encouragement of a lot of people, including my wife, was like, just like start writing and like get the story on paper.

Cuz not only is it like an interesting story, but it was also like the writing process was extremely therapeutic and that just then consumed all of me. I got to the point where I, I had to start, you know, at the beginning of, of like, how did I end up working for a FinTech in Africa? And that was just like a question that I had to go deep into.

Own memory bank. Um, and, and like, talking to people that I hadn't talked to in a long time and it was a really happy time. So I, I started like remembering that like the, the end was hard, but I'm like, wow, this wasn't always hard. And like the formation of the company and how hard it was to get started was an amazing experience.

Then I also had to like write the hard things. And, and I had like these very emotional swings where I'd like come out of a session of like writing and I'd either be feeling great or I'd come out and I'd just be like totally exhausted. Cuz I'm like, I just had to like relive like the worst bit, you know, this the worst bit.

Right? Which was always around people, right? People and, and funding. But, it ended up being like a great process. And then, and then when I was. Kind of done with the first draft, I'm like, oh, I feel better. I, I have like clarity on what I want to do next cuz it kind of helps to process the learnings of like, oh, how would I do this again differently and how would this be relevant to the new business?

Kind of gave me a lot of ideas and energy and, uh, and then I had like a manuscript for a book, which I never would've written otherwise. So, I

[00:11:15] Mike Quinn: Yeah. The editing process is hard cuz you like I wrote the first one and I was like, great. Done. So it's like everybody's gonna love it.

It's gonna change the world and I can go on to like do my next thing cuz I'm done with it. Then I, I gave it like, of course, people who love me are like, yeah, this is like really good and they're living through this emotion. gentle feedback was like, oh, well this is kind of like a personal memoir. It's too long, it's too detailed.

It's not gonna be generalized enough for other people to want to read it. You know, if you publish it, nobody will buy it. Um, harsh. Yeah. It's like, it's really good. Like just yeah, keep it to yourself. It's nice. And I, and by that point I'm like, oh, it's a shame to keep it to myself.

And, like my wife was very encouraging too. It's like, you know, some so many people will, will learn from. I was talking to a lot of other founders who were like resonating with my story and like sharing theirs and it's just like nobody talks about failure or in your case, hazel endings, right?

Mm-hmm. , um, Because it's always about like how I was successful and I became like the unicorn and the, the only like, failure stories are when like, you become a billionaire and then you get kicked outta your own company and Right, uh, you get fired and then there's a Netflix documentary about you, like, whatever,

But like the experience of most entrepreneurs is, uh, it's much more common too, to mine of, um, more complex than, than they thought. So I, I started realizing like, you know, I, I, I could do. Be of service to other founders, um, and people in, in not only the African ecosystem, but you know, potentially abroad about, like, sharing the Zonah story and then like the, the failures that I experienced and what I learned from them, like more broadly.

And, and then that was like the multiple editing, rewriting processing period and it had one po positive benefit that I'll, I'll kind of end on here. That, allowed me to live an extra year. And then the, the last section of the book is called Winning About how I was able to then like to launch a new business during Covid, which I, you know, wasn't anticipating.

It wasn't like the book ended with zona falling off a cliff and I left the end. It was like, the book ended with, I'd started something new and there was like a, you know, green shoots coming up. And, um, and if I had published earlier and I didn't have, wouldn't have gone through the processing, that wouldn't have been the ending.

So I'm, I'm very grateful.

Um, there are a couple of points that I was just fascinated by that I've gotta ask you before we go. , and one of them was because I'm interested in semantic decision-making, particularly for bright people who tend to get in their heads when they're making decisions. But it's that gut point that when your gut tells you something.

So looking back, if you think about some of the good decisions you made versus ones that subsequently turn out to be bad decisions, do you think you felt a difference?

Like a very strong sensing thinker, right? Yeah. Okay. So I've had to learn to listen to my gut and trust it. It's not, of course, it's not always right, but, you know, some, some people who are more sensing just require like a lot of data and then they will move a little bit late because they like, sometimes the data's not there.

And then there are people like me, who Don't require a lot of data and decision-making can make big, take big intuitive leaps, but then I have a blind spot if I can ignore data. I, I mentioned this earlier in the conversation. Um, I was probably ignoring the data if it's

Yeah.

It's like how to be caring and supportive, but also be truthful and like honest like yours. , especially if you're a non-executive board member, it's easy to like to show up and, and you're not in the fire and to be like, I think we should do this, and you're not doing that, so therefore, like, you're wrong and I'm right.

And then, you know, it creates a bad situation, but it's like, it's much better if you have people that are coming together and they're like, okay, you know, we're all in this position and we, we need to find a way out of it. And like, Mike, you're the CEO, you've gotta make the call on this, but like, let's make sure we go through like option A, B, C, and D and then like, let's.

And, and try to be systematic about it as opposed to what was probably happening as the end is I'm like, you know, this is what I'm doing. This is what we're doing. This is what I think we should do, and everybody's sitting back waiting for that plan, to come true or not. Um, and then quietly thinking like, oh, it's probably not gonna work.

And you know, we're either gonna need to fire Mike or he's gonna quit. Right? So in, in the moment, because the stress level arises for everybody, like when investors have real money, real losses that their employees are starting to think about, like looking for other jobs and thinking about their family situations.

These are complex, like very stressful decisions and situations like to come.

But talking of which fun question for me was about your mentor, you're very fortunate to have an incredible mentor through in Patrick, and I was interested at that moment. I think it was about six months before the end when he was. Time to sell. And that was when you decide no double down back yourself.

And it was that moment that I think without all the stress that was surrounding that, you know, because I think there are moments aren't there when you get advice from people who are very experienced and you still have to take that judgment call of, no, I believe I'm right. How do you balance that sort of confidence versus overconfidence now with everything you've learned about?

uh,

But like, Um, even in, in our case, and like, I, I got this, yeah. This advice is from my mentor. He was clever enough to say he, he, like, he, and he phrased it, saying like, he's like, Mike, I care about you and your career is gonna last a much lot longer and you're gonna go on and do something else. Amazing.

This is something that you should seriously consider now. He wasn't saying like, you should do it and this is the right answer. Right. He, he framed it in a way that like, now I look back and I'm like, yeah, he was, he was telling me something that I, I. Wish I, I leaned into and they act like I was more action-oriented towards, um, at the time.

But he also was smart enough to know, like, well he, he might not have been right cuz he didn't know the context and he wasn't on the ground. And there could have been a different outcome where we might have struck a, like a, a partnership or, or had like a new investor. Cuz the thing with investors, right, it's not like they kind of come out of the woodwork sometimes like.

The ones that you think are gonna be there often pass on you, but then you're gonna introduce to somebody else who introduce you to somebody else, and then somebody's like, I love this business, and let me put in some money. And then we would've been fine. We would've been saved. Or, or the market timing.

Um, you know, the economy picks up, and then everybody suddenly looks differently at the same problem. You know, it's, it's difficult. Um, I've probably been in. , increasingly old age? No. Um, uh, like I have the benefit of experiences to draw on, but I, I also, um, can play the probabilities a little bit more.

You know, I know enough about myself, so I, I'm more aware of my blind spots and I know, like even when I think I'm right in, like my youth, I would've been like, I think I'm right. Like, let's go now. I'm like, I think I'm right. But I also know that I probably need to go like, get. A second opinion or some advice from others and, make sure I, like, am aware of the risks.

And then get to the point where it's like, okay, let's all get in a room together and we need to make like a call. You know, just being more systematic around decision making is one important thing and one piece of advice I got, uh, after leaving as well, um, I wasn't advice, it was more like just a comment.

It was like, when hope becomes the strategy, you're screwed. Right? But it, but it's, it's good, it was a good thing too, to look back on, to be like, We got closer to the end and we were just like, if this happens and then this happens and this happens, we'll be fine. Right? So that, that to me now is like much more of a red flag where I can deal with like adversity and a lot of complexity cuz I'm like, oh, like, you know, there's, more things are going well than not going well and therefore we're gonna be fine.

But when, when you get to the point where you're. Okay. I need this to happen, um, to get out of this situation. That's when you need to probably take back control a little bit more, right? And be like, okay, this is, um, this, you know, might happen and it could work out well, but like, I've got other stakeholders to look after and I've gotta plan for like a more probabilistic outcome.

They're about a second. But our unconscious minds can decide about 400 microseconds, and instead of our conscious minds, which can use five to nine bits of concrete information, our unconscious minds can deal with 8 million bits of data. These are incredibly fast, incredibly powerful decisions, but they can be so quick.

We may ignore them. It can be a tightening of the stomach, it can be a flutter, it can be a feeling on ours. When you know how to tune into yourself, you might notice if you think back to some really good decisions you've made, how did it feel? And then think back to decisions that in hindsight were not your finest.

Again, what did you feel and where? And what you might notice is there is a difference. So the next time you have to make a decision, tune in on what are you. Because that will give you a really good sense of what is your body telling you now, Daniel Carman won, uh, a Nobel Prize for this working, uh, in his book, Thinking Fast and slow.

So I said It's really good science, good neuroscience. And you'll start to notice, uh, more about yourself and how you make decisions. And you can simply add this in as another data point. But next time that somebody says to you, this is a decision made by my gut, or I can feel it in my bones, it's not as f flaky as it sounds.

Now you may also have heard how positive Mike is, even having gone through such an emotionally difficult time. He's very upbeat, and I wanted to just talk very quickly about learned optimism because when you're going through such a difficult time, Particularly one that can trigger those feelings and emotions of grief.

Being able to stay positive is an incredibly important way through. There is a principle that we talk about a lot in the kind of work I do as a business psychologist. Where you ground yourself in the reality of what's happening right now, and then stay very positive about the future. But the positivity about the future is based on research conducted by Martin Seligman and Seligman.

Originally conducted research with dogs and apologies for any animal lovers. This is. But he administered a very small electric shock into a box where dogs could then move into another box, which had no electric shocks, and as any stimulus-response creature should, the dogs initially moved away from the horrible electric shock, but over time, what he noticed was they stopped moving.

And it was like they gave up an accepted pain and that was quite horrifying to the researchers at the time. And of course, the question became, do humans do the same thing? If we experience too much pain or too much sadness or too much negativity, do we become hopeless and helpless? The answer is yes, of course.

People with chronic pain conditions, usually after about five years, stop trying to get any further treatment or diagnosis. So what will look like in business is that if you've been through a prolonged period of difficulty or negativity, it's really easy that people to start to feel pessimistic. And what we are watching out for in human beings is the way we talk about the things that are going wrong.

Um, it's usually expressed in three p's pervasive. Permanence, personalization. So pervasiveness is how much of your life is this affecting? If you get a chance to read Mike's book, and I do recommend it, you see this sense of it's just this, it's just the business, just this issue. It's not everything that went wrong, it was just this bit, and that just this element means that something goes wrong in one part of your life doesn't creep into or ruin every part of your life.

Might draw strength from his family, and that's important. And that sense of being able to keep one part of your life okay while something's going wrong in another, just the same as if your relationship is not working well, doesn't affect how you perform at work. That ability to just is just this, that's going wrong.

And if we can cope with the pervasiveness, then we move on to permanence. And permanence has been able to say the negative thing is just now. It's not always, it's not gonna go on forever. Now interestingly, you combine those two, finding a temporary and specific reason for things going wrong is the art of hope.

And, I know Mike said that you know, if hope is your strategy, you're stuffed. But you know, the one thing when it comes to human beings is we do need hope. It just can't be the thing you guide your business by. So recognizing those two things are important, that if something's going wrong, it's just this.

It's just now. And the bit that's intriguing though is that it's not me, the final peer's, personalization. When people are feeling negative, they start to blame themselves. They start to think there's something wrong with them. And that's what you need to watch out for. Now, as you heard, Mike does not blame himself.

He recognizes what he could do differently, but he also recognizes what was to do with the environment, what was going on around him, what was the economy, and that ability to flip things out too. Whole blame where it needs to be and not taking it all on is a really important part of being positive. So thinking about those three Ps is something you can do for yourself if you're going through a difficult time.

It's keeping the mantra in mind. It's justice. It's just now it's not me. There are some limits to that final one of just me. Cause of course the one big journey Mike's been on is looking at himself and those seven edits of the book. That helped him to tune in and understand that sometimes some things are us and that we do need to look at.

And being able to do that honestly and vulnerably to do something. So it doesn't happen again, and learn about those things so that in the future we can do it differently. And yes, we know being too positive. Can be an issue cause you assume it can't possibly go wrong. And then when it does, it can be quite as shocking as Mike experienced.

But I think this is something that, uh, certainly in terms of surviving the tsunami of shit that can be managing a, an SME and founding a business, uh, staying positive is one of. Top tips for getting through all of this, and it's something, uh, uh, I'll be intrigued to see how you get on with, but I think there's, there are lots that you can get from Mike's experience and, and it's all there in his book, and I hope you get a chance to read it.

If you are interested in understanding the endings happening in your own life a little better, I have the perfect thing for you. It's my five-step worksheet developed specifically for listeners of this podcast and based on your of my research. This first step will only take you 20 minutes to complete, but we'll bring you a lot closer to understanding how to make these difficult decisions around.

Click the link in the show notes to download your Thriving through Endings worksheet. Now finally, if you know somebody who might benefit from hearing about coping with losing a business or a sudden departure, please share it with them. I'm Hazel Shall, and I hope you'll join me again for another episode of Endings.