Balancing Structure and Intuition in Coaching

In this episode, hosts Angie and John dive into the debate over structured versus intuitive coaching methods.

They discuss their personal experiences transitioning from formulaic approaches to more adaptive, intuitive styles.

They explore the importance of blending frameworks with flexibility, the perils of rigid coaching, and the potential future implications of AI in coaching.

Tune in for insights on how to keep coaching sessions impactful and the essential traits of great coaches.

Do you have some thoughts or feedback you'd like to share? Questions for us? Leave us a free voicemail https://speakpipe.com/thecoachingclinicpodcast and if we like your message we might feature you on the show.

00:00 Introduction and Comedy Preferences

01:17 Coaching Styles: Formulaic vs. Intuitive

04:49 Frameworks in Coaching

06:42 The Role of Intuition in Coaching

08:58 Challenges and Flexibility in Coaching

18:39 Client Expectations and Coaching Fit

25:35 Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser

Angie,

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Angie: John.

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John: do you prefer a stand up

comedy routine or a bit of improv?

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Angie: Ooh, I love a

good stand up routine.

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How about you?

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John: It can be good, but I love the

danger and uncertainty of improv too.

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Angie: Yeah, but it can be a wreck

if it doesn't go well though, right?

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John: Oh, I'd be like coaching really.

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Angie: Maybe you're coaching.

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John: Oh, thanks.

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No, I mean, you can be planned

or you can be in the moment.

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Angie: Sounds like a great topic for us.

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Let's get the show started.

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John: This is something that's been on my

mind for a bunch of years as a coach So

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i'm glad that we're actually getting to

this as a topic on the show today about

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whether we work with kind of like formulas

and structures as coaches or whether we're

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more intuitive and I certainly started

off my coaching career my coaching Um

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with clients using formulas and structures

and taking people through a particular

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process that had been taught to me.

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And then I fairly quickly transitioned

to being more intuitive and tuning into

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what was going on with the clients of

maybe what was being said and what wasn't

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being said and all those kinds of things.

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And I noticed that there's a lot of

coaches who fall on one side or the other.

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There's probably a lot

of in between as well.

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Where do you fall with this, Angie?

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Angie: When I started coaching, it

wasn't really framework oriented

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but I think I probably set out like

an agenda of what I wanted to talk

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about in terms of keeping a flow

and not falling into the weeds.

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And now, I guess I've progressed.

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I look at it as a progression.

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I progressed into

following a framework and

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sprinkling in, of course,

the intuition, right?

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Because whether you're

following a framework or not,

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you have to be intuitive.

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You have to be able to not be robotic and

have that open flow to a coaching session.

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I think that's a, that's the job of

a great coach in my humble opinion.

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John: I did years ago a series

of trainings with another coach

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and I would say we had very

different styles of coaching.

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She is very much systematic, formulaic,

process driven and I'm way more out

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there on the intuitive, listening for

things and trying to tune in to what's

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really going on and what you most need.

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And yeah, we were able to come together

very well and I think it was from her

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that I first started to see that there

was potentially a lot of value because

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she was very successful as a coach and

very effective people getting results

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with her as well as I think what people

are getting results with me too, people

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are getting results with her and yeah,

I have seen And experienced, more

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importantly, coaches who do seem to

be, you know, like when you get those

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calls from telemarketers and you just

know that they're just reading off the

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script and there's no real energy to it.

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Angie: Mr.

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Ball, thank you.

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I understand.

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Thank you so much.

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John: I've experienced that

from other coaches who,

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Angie: really?

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Oh my

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John: yeah,

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yeah, I, I have now say few and

far between, but I certainly

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have, and I don't like it myself.

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so I know that.

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Some of my take on this is my own

preference and my resistance to people

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who coach badly with just a framework

and it doesn't really feel like

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they're actually listening to what you

say, they're just looking to get you

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to the next point on the framework.

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I don't like that.

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So I think there has to be some

middle, some middle ground, right?

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Angie: Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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I feel like if you're just gonna sit

there and read off A series of questions

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to somebody, well, then they don't really

need a coach, that's not coaching, that's,

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school time in third grade, I'm going

to tell you what to do step by step by

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step, or we're going to talk about it.

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I think the idea of following the

framework is good because I've used

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other frameworks, but I don't feel like

they were as comprehensive as this one.

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So, this one I choose to use it because I

feel like it covers a person holistically.

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But at the end of it, it is still up to

me to do the deeper digging and something

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that you said brought this to mind for me.

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You need to still, you need to be in

the moment as a coach, but you also need

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to be able to have that bird's eye view

and see how this, like, how's it going?

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And I think when you get, when somebody

gets super focused on a framework,

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They lose that other piece of seeing

observing, if you will, what's

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actually going on in their session.

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John: When you say framework though,

do, is it to the point where in

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your own private coaching, you know,

what session one's gonna be about?

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You know, what session two is gonna

be about, you know, is like that kind

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of formula that you pretty much know

what you're working on each session

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Angie: so topics, I know specific topics,

they may not necessarily like work, oh,

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this is going to be, module one or session

one or whatever you want to call it.

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I do start with a, hey,

this is our first meeting.

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This is our first session.

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These are the things we're going to be

talking about throughout the process.

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But today's topic is, and again, it's hard

to imagine without knowing what it is.

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But the way that it is put

together is super, it really

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took the guesswork out of it.

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So honestly, if you suck as a

coach, you could really utilize this

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framework and be a pretty good coach.

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But I think the best experiences

that I've observed using this frame,

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this particular framework is when

you use the topic, but then take,

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take that and springboard from it.

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And do the deeper dive.

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John: Yeah, we were briefly talking

before we hit record today about,

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well, I was anyway about about the

possibility of AI coaches and that

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this is something that already exists.

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And I would say this, that if you are

purely formula coach and as I just, I

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go through the process, you read this

stuff out and you work through that.

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And you're not really intuitive or

tuned into your clients or connected

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in that in those kinds of important

ways You might as well be an AI coach

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and you will probably be just as

effectively replaced by one Because

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the AI coach can still go through that

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Angie: Yes , oh my god

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John: this may be hard news

for some some of our listeners

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Angie: It really may be and I'm sorry

for just bursting out and laughing but

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First of all, you just delivered that

with such, tactics like well, you might as

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well be replaced by one and i'm thinking

Oh my goodness, like that's pretty bad.

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Just saying.

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I'm sorry.

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John: Am I wrong?

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Am I wrong?

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Angie: Oh, but you're not.

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I agree with you.

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I feel like there's that human connection

that you need to be able to connect

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with people and build a rapport.

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John: Yeah, this is why, this

is why ultimately coaches

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can't really be replaced.

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If you are coaching in that kind of way,

and you're not just like, oh, I have my

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list of questions, I have my process to

take you through and control yourself.

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Angie take a deep, take a deep take

a deep cleansing breath, right?

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but, uh.

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But it is important because we

want to make sure we're going

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to have clients in the future.

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And that connection with your

client is really important.

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And to show that you're listening, you're

tuned into them you're paying attention.

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I can, I see the value of frameworks.

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I just think they should

be ever stuck to rigidly.

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We need to have flexibility.

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Guys, this has been a theme for

me today talking about improv,

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but improv is the to improvise.

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Is really important and to be able to go

where you need to go when you need to go

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there Because there are times and i'm sure

you've had these experiences as well where

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unexpected things come up on your

cause and if you're not really

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prepared for those or able to deal

with stuff that is outside of the

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scope of what you were planning for

the session, you're gonna come unstuck.

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Now, I would say I had this happen to

me in my very early days as a coach

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and I didn't know how to handle it.

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Now I would.

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But, , what do you do if someone gets

super emotional in the middle of a

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session or somebody actually starts

yelling at you in the middle of a session?

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Angie: Click.

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No, I'm sorry.

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I wouldn't do that.

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John: You're gonna have to go

somewhere that you probably didn't

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plan on and you have to deviate

from what you were expecting to do.

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So we do need to have that ability

to be somewhat flexible and go where

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we need to go.

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Angie: Yeah, I don't disagree, but

think about it also on the flip side.

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I have been in sessions, even at

this point in my career after doing

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this for so long, I've been in a

position, it doesn't happen often, but

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sometimes you know what, sometimes you

don't, you're somebody so stuck and

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you don't know how to get them out.

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And that is also, but that is

where that framework could.

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Be of benefit right because

keep in top like a remind what's

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the topic really about today?

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Is it about this?

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Is it about this how I get

them back to that place?

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, or at least a piece of the framework

So on the other hand, it could be

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beneficial if you've become stuck with

a client I mean have you ever been in

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a session and I know what the answer

is don't try and fib But have you ever

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been in a session where you're like?

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Gosh, I don't know.

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Is it them?

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Is it me?

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Like what is going on today?

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This is not working.

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They're stopped I'm falling into

stuckedness with them and i'm

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not really sure where to go.

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Have you had

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that happen?

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John: just yesterday,

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Angie: Oh, well already then.

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John: Yeah, of course.

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It does happen.

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. And when I was, you tend to

analyze after a call, I do anyway,

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think, what was that about?

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What was going on there?

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Cause that the rapport

really wasn't there.

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And I felt like there was even

skepticism from the client.

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And that wasn't clearly coming through.

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Like there was a, certainly

a lack of commitment.

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It was a very, disconnected call

in many ways, as much as that

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sounds paradoxical, but, , we just

weren't quite connecting together.

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There was no friendliness to it.

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There was certainly , no warmth.

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It was kind of like,

just give me facts here.

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Yeah.

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, very, very

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Angie: meaning from the expectation

of the client that their expectation

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was but They wanted it to keep it a

little bit more, you know You They

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didn't want to connect with you.

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They just wanted the facts.

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John: I felt like that after the

call, like there was a lack of trust

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there and that's something that, you

know, if we work with this client,

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this was like a one off thing.

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One of the, one of our, one of our

situation clients that maybe if we

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come back and work together again

in the future, that's something I

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might have to address because I don't want

to, don't want to have that situation.

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But generally in my private coaching

there, that doesn't happen much.

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Sometimes what happens more is that

there's something that I start to

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notice that they don't want to deal with.

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And that's where stuff can start to come

up and get awkward, and that's obviously

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where I'm going to go into and say,

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um, I'm kind of noticing something here.

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I'm not

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Angie: Yeah.

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But then sometimes we just have to

take, when that starts to happen

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and, , we find a client that's falling

into that avoidance situation, we

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obviously have to maybe take that step

back because we know the harder we push,

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the further away they're going to run

or the faster they're going to run.

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But again, like I think when it comes to

it, we do need to have some intuition.

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We need to be able to read people

to some degree, again, no crystal

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ball or anything like that, having

an intuition listening and you said

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in the beginning, and I love this.

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I say this all the time.

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You're not just listening

to what they are saying.

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You're listening for patterns of things

they might say, and you're also listening

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for what's not being said and you're

sitting there going, wait a minute.

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We just went from A to M.

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And we forgot everything in the middle.

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Now, honor them, let them

speak, and then come back and

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say, Excuse me, what about B?

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Right?

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So that's the beauty of Okay, I have

the freedom within that session to

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address, pretty much anything I choose.

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So yeah, and I think that coaches that

are and you know that are so specific.

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I actually am just having a memory.

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There was a company I worked for where I

actually used to help I was coached But

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I used to help train the other coaches

And there were just some people who were

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like very intuitive like very relatable

That I interacted with and I thought

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wow, they're going to be a great coach

because there was a framework, they

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could, they, they were like I don't know,

think about a bowling alley when you take

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small children and they put the bumpers

up so we can never get a gutter ball.

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Right.

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It was like they were staying in the lane.

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But they were just bouncing like they

didn't really know how to like, let

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those barriers or break those barriers

down because they were so focused

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on the framework and guess what?

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They didn't make it as coaches.

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They just didn't get hired.

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So I can see how that can be a

challenge, and how it can definitely

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make a session Super ineffective.

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super

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ineffective.

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John: if we look at it from, and we have

brought this up before on sessions, but

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if we look at it from perhaps the ICC,

I'm sorry, I, the ICF point of view

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of that coaching really is just about.

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Asking questions and ontological

coaching, which means we should never

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be consulting in a consultancy position.

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We should never be advising or mentoring

only ever pure coaching asking questions,

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let them bring the answers out.

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That's very hard to work with

a formula, then you really do

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have to be completely intuitive.

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About where you're gonna

go with your questions.

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You absolutely have to be

listening to your client.

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I, I wonder, I've never done pure

ontological coaching like that, but

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may maybe have, but I've never had that

situation of coming onto a call and like,

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well, uh, what are we gonna talk about

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Angie: Well, I think listen,

I'm going to say this.

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I have had coaches right in the past

and I've had coaches that were, I had

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actually a coach that was amazing.

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I love him.

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Shame on you, John.

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His name was John as well for retiring.

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. But anyway, but I've been coached by

some really, high level credentialed

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people that had great reviews and they

get on the call and go, okay, so tell me

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what's going on.

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All right.

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I'll tell you what's going on.

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I guess.

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Right.

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What have you done since

we last saw each other?

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When, since we last met?

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Oh, I did this.

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I'm going to say that 90 percent

of the time, the ant, like the

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follow up was so poor that I ended

up leading my own coaching session.

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And I'm like, okay, this is wrong.

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This is a little bit backwards

because they are not connecting to me.

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They're not they're focused on whatever

it is They're supposed to be saying to me

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and they don't they're not paying they're

not listening to me So I think you know

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when we talk about what treats I know

this is like a whole different thing But

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i'm just saying like the traits that make

up a great coach It's one of the best

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list, like deep present listening, right?

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And not just listening to listen for

the sake of it, but like to start

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putting this picture together, right?

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This puzzle, if you will.

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And I think when you're stuck in

a framework, you're only going

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to maybe put around the edges,

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you know, that's kind of what I think it

comes down to, but I'm actually recalling

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a couple of those experiences and saying,

you know, I wasted a lot of money.

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I paid a lot of money.

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To not be coached very well because

there was nothing, I was like,

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well, don't you want to know this?

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I

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was really like don't you want to

know why maybe I was avoiding that?

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Why my productivity is down?

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Like maybe we should talk about that.

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No, they had no idea what to do next.

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John: that is one of the things that can

come up, up as being beneficial about

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coaching when you do have a process,

some kind of process to work through.

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Like you actually get a chance to count

this up even near from one particular

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session It's like well, maybe there's

something there that isn't directly

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related today may come up today or make

up in another session But we're giving

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things the opportunity to flow and to

fly through, it does depend on the kind

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of coaching you're offering, the results

that you're aiming to get with people.

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Now, if I'm coaching someone on being

able to deliver amazing presentations

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from the platform, I don't really

want to be getting into like their

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family relationships or how they're,

Why they're still, why they're single

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and can't find someone else to sign.

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That's not the kind of

coaching that I'm there

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for.

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These are examples that

I've had as well, so.

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But that's not really the kind of coaching

that I'm there for and I don't want to

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be getting into that with them either.

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If I wanted that, I would have become

a relationship coach and I, I don't,

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I'm not and I don't want to be.

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Um.

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Angie: Interesting though, I'm going to,

I'm going to jump in for a second because

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I've been hired by people in the past

professionals, they were professionals

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and this is what's jumping out at me at

the moment where they've been like, you

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know, Angie, we, this is our second or

third session and I'm a little confused.

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Aren't you going to tell me

like what to do with my business

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or what I should do as a

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leader?

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And like they wanted a consultant.

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They did not want to coach and

there is which we've talked about.

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There is a difference so You know that

kind of puts you in a weird space and

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i'm going to say this my experience and

i've had I don't know how many clients

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hundreds of clients to the tune of

thousands upon thousands of hours of

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coaching And if somebody comes to me with

a business challenge, unless it's like a

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very specific get me from here to here in

this particular space, 95 percent of the

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time, what's happening

personally or professionally.

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Is happening personally is

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happening

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because of personal space So I think

that's why I chose the framework that

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I use because it actually helps dive

into all of those spaces and treats them

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holistically Rather than it's just that

and I think that's where maybe there's

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that fine line of make sure you know

i'm going to say this make sure you know

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what the person is actually looking for

Because they literally might just be

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looking for a business consultant where

you do like tease through ideas and things

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like that and said, yeah, that's good.

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Go with that.

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I don't do that as a coach.

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I don't say that's good.

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That's not good.

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I say, see how it works.

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That's the difference.

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John: I try again, I'm not a

prescriptive coach in that sense except

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when the coaching is to a specific

outcome that I'm hoping to get to.

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I'm going to be guiding them and

to some degree mentoring them.

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It's just very specific coaching offering,

but I still do some general coaching, some

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other kinds of coaching as well, that,

business and otherwise not so often now,

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but I do find there's a, it's amazing

how much stuff can come up with that.

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It does depend on the person.

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You do have to meet them where they're at.

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That's how I ended up, I think,

suspending a whole call talking about

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one guy's erection, erec what was it?

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What do we erectile dysfunction.

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For a for a whole call.

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Not my favourite topic.

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And certainly nothing I Nothing

It's something I don't know

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very mu very much about.

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Angie: Well,

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John: I really What am I really What

am I really able to offer on a call

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like that where, but it did at least

explain perhaps what was behind some

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of the stuff that was going on for him.

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But but certainly not saying it's

like what should I do about this?

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And I was like yeah, I'm not a

doctor, not a medical consultant

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have very little for you here.

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Angie: Liffen, I'm so sorry.

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I'm actually quite giddy today,

which is really strange, right?

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I'm not usually so giddy.

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Although John usually does, he usually

does make, he makes me laugh a lot.

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Just the way he delivers certain things.

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But as he was saying

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erect, erect, I'm thinking,

oh my goodness, is he going

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to say erectile dysfunction?

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And he did.

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I don't know.

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And then he had the nerve

listeners to say, not something

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that I have much knowledge about.

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Listen to who's bragging today.

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If you all could see what we look

like right now, half the time I'm

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covering my mouth in laughter today.

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It's just horrible.

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Anyway But no, but this

is good information.

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I think that, there's expectation.

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I think maybe that is how you decide,

how to handle a particular client

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perhaps is, understanding what it is that

they're looking for and looking to gain.

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And allowing some flexibility, even

if you are following a process,

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you have to think about it.

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We'll however you approach coaching,

whatever type of coach you decide you

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want to be when you are having that

initial conversation with somebody.

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And they're telling you and hopefully

you're doing this by the way And

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they're telling you what they'd like

to see as an outcome or what where

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they've been stuck and for how long?

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Hopefully you're looking at it

and saying okay is what I do a

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good platform for this person.

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Is this going to be A you know back to

the good fit because if somebody's you

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know I just need somebody to go with the

flow and really understand me I've had

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coaches before and they never listened And

you are somebody who follows a specific

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framework to almost the letter, you

may not be a good fit for this person.

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You're not going to help them and probably

not have a great experience with them.

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You know?

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John: To some degree, there's, we're often

going to find ourselves in that situation

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where we've developed a level of trust

with someone where they want to share,

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sometimes intimate details of their lives.

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Certainly if they don't have anyone

that they feel that close to in

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their own lives, that they maybe are

going to want to share it with you.

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You still need to but you still need

to keep your calls on track as best

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you can Can't ignore it or pretend they

haven't said it you need to address

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it But it may not be something that

you even really can go into with them.

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But there may also be like if you have

those structures, you know I always

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think there's still things from my

early days of coaching that I may go

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back and use as tools sometimes even

from you're not easy very much stuff

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from nlp trainings or Books, various

books I've read that comes into my

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coaching practice at various times.

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But, as and when they're needed.

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It's good to have those things.

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There's tools in your tool belt.

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But I do not generally do

well with rigid coaching.

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I want some kind of, I want some

kind of structure and I work very

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well within a loose, I work very

well within a loose structure.

431

Where I can really tune into

people, have the relationship and

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trust and get into the issues that,

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Angie: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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No.

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So I think we do just, I

think we agree on that.

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I think that there really is.

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My feeling is there should

be a good blend of that.

439

Just because, having one or

two sessions that aren't like

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air quote planned is fine.

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But when you're doing X amount of

sessions with somebody and it's week

442

after week or how, whatever the period

of time is that how often you do them,

443

how you do the sessions, like you have

to think about what is it like to get

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into those sessions week after week or

session after session and keeping it.

445

impactful.

446

That's the really big question.

447

So it doesn't become redundant and

it still always remains challenging.

448

But I think, to some degree

you and I definitely agree

449

that there should be something.

450

John: Well, look, I mean, we

mentioned being taken over by AI.

451

Well, we now have the ability to

have AI voices for our podcast.

452

Perhaps we'll do an episode that's just

going to be AI and see how people feel.

453

Maybe we'll stick to that, but,

but we could, we could do it.

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Next time I think we'll talk about

those traits that make a great coaches.

455

You brought it up on the course day.

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I think it would be a great

topic for our next call.

457

So come and join us if you'd like

to hear some more about that and

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do leave us a message speakpipe.

459

com forward slash the

coaching clinic podcast.

460

Speakpipe.

461

com forward slash the

coaching clinic podcast.

462

The links in the coach in the show

notes, you can leave us a message, leave

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us a voicemail with your questions,

comments any feedback you have for

464

the show, tell us how wonderful

we are, how gorgeous Angie looks

465

today, all of those kinds of things.

466

And we look forward to hearing from you.

467

And if we like your message, we'll

feature on the show, but we'll be

468

back again with another episode very

469

Angie: Yeah.

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We'd love to hear from you.

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John: See you soon.

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Everybody.

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Angie: Bye bye.

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John: Why am I waving?

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Hello, audio show.

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Angie: You're still recording?