Exploring Content Creation, Continuing Education, APA CEU approval, Cosponsorship and Neurodiversity with Dr. Amy Marschall

In this episode of the Continuing Education for Mental Health Professionals podcast, host Natasha Moharter chats with Dr. Amy Marschall, a licensed psychologist and CEU provider. Dr. Marschall shares her journey in the field, her transition to telehealth, and the motivation behind creating her own CEU courses. She delves into the challenges and benefits of providing continuing education and navigating the APA approval process, the importance of neurodiversity affirming care, and her upcoming certification program for mental health professionals. Dr. Marschall also highlights her various books and children's resources, and offers valuable insights for aspiring CEU providers.

00:00 Introduction and Host Welcome

00:25 Guest Introduction: Dr. Amy Marschall

01:46 Dr. Marschall's Journey into CEU Provision

02:31 Developing Telehealth Resources for Children

03:18 Creating Continuing Education Content

04:47 Navigating APA Sponsorship

07:41 Challenges and Rewards of CEU Provision

10:12 Neurodiversity Affirming Mental Health Care

14:14 Certification and Education Initiatives

17:35 Tips for Aspiring CEU Providers

21:17 Live vs. Asynchronous Training

27:14 Marketing and Visibility

35:23 International Practice and Cultural Competence

39:23 Final Thoughts and Resources

Welcome to the continuing education for mental

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health professionals podcast.

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Today, we are hosting another CEU

provider spotlight conversation.

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This is where we learn more

about CEU providers in our

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community and their journeys.

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My name is Natasha Moharter and I'm a

licensed counselor and OCD specialist.

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I run the Facebook group CE for

mental health professionals.

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And if you're a mental health

professional, we'd love to

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have you join us in that space.

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I am so excited because we are joined

today by our very special guest, Dr.

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Amy Marschall.

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Amy earned her doctoral degree in clinical

psychology from the University of Hartford

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in West Hartford, Connecticut in 2015.

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She has been a licensed psychologist

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practice, Resiliency Mental Health

(RMH Therapy), where she provides

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therapy primarily to children and

adolescents as well as psychological

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evaluations and ADHD assessments.

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Her clinical specializations

include trauma informed care,

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neurodiversity affirming care, rural

mental health and telemental health.

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In addition to her practice

in the United States, Dr.

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Marschall is a registered

psychologist in New Zealand.

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Amy also provides continuing

education through PESI and the

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Telehealth Certification Institute.

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And she creates continuing

education courses through Resiliency

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Mental Health's APA sponsorship.

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Additionally, she writes educational

mental health materials for

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Dot Dash Meredith and Spring

Health, and she is the resident

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neurodiversity expert with Grayce.

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Dr.

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Marschall is the author of several

books, including clinical texts,

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children's books, and a guided journal.

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In her spare time, Amy enjoys

reading, making jewelry, and

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spending time with her cats.

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She is licensed to practice

psychology in Florida, Montana, New

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York, North Dakota, South Carolina,

South Dakota, and Wisconsin.

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She is also a PSYPACT provider.

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Welcome, Dr.

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Marschall.

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It is such a pleasure

to have you here today.

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Dr. Amy Marschall: Glad to be here.

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Natasha Moharter: Can you share a

little bit about your background

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and what got you interested in

becoming a creator and CEU provider?

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Dr. Amy Marschall: Yeah.

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So, basically my experience

providing continuing education

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started with PESI, in 2020 when

lockdowns and everything happened.

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I'm in a number of Facebook groups

for providers who work with children.

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I found with the transition to online

because of COVID and everything.

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I was pretty quickly building a

new toolbox for myself of here's

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all the things that I can do

in my sessions with these kids.

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I found that everybody in these Facebook

groups was like freaking out because

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they're saying, how do I do play therapy?

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How do I do a play based intervention?

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How do I do a game online?

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What do I do for all of this?

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I've been in South Dakota since

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So I had been doing a little

bit of telehealth with children.

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Just because, you know, there are parts

of my state where it's a three hour

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drive each way to the closest therapist.

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So I was working to develop kid friendly

telehealth options at that time because,

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these kids and their families just

don't have the resources to be driving

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six hours, once a week for therapy.

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So when we went online, I

already had a few things that

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I was doing pretty regularly.

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And I was finding that developing more

things was coming pretty easily and

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everybody else was kind of panicking.

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So that's when I started my blog, which

was initially just a list of stuff that

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I was doing with kids over telehealth.

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And then I thought, well,

you know, it'd be good to get

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continuing education in this.

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And so I reached out to PESI and

I said, you all don't seem to have

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anything for telehealth with kids.

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You know, maybe you should, and I

guess no one else had pitched that

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to them because they gave me the,

they were like, yes, we'll have

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you, we'll have you develop this.

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So I've worked with them on a few

different continuing ed projects.

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I've got another on autistic

burnout in December.

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And, basically, I found that, you

know, I can make a lot of great content

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with them, but it is very, drawn out.

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So the process, you know, you

pitch your course, they assess it,

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they determine like they do their

market research and all of that.

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And it takes a very long time for

them to say, okay, yes, this is

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something that we're going to produce.

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And I am not a patient person.

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So I just, looked up, how do I

just make CEs just like by myself?

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And I found out that APA will

let any organization apply.

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They don't approve every applicant,

but anybody can apply and say,

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I would like to provide CEs.

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As a sponsor for the American

Psychological Association.

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I just applied for my own sponsorship

so that I could make my own stuff and

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not have to wait on anybody, basically.

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Natasha Moharter: And so with the APA

sponsorship, is it for psychologists only?

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Dr. Amy Marschall: So, APA requires

that any continuing education

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that's APA sponsored has to have

psychologists involved in the creation.

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So you would need a psychologist

kind of somewhere on your team.

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But, you know, it's not, you have to

be a psychologist to provide APA CEs.

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I contract with a few people, a

counselor, one social worker, I think,

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who essentially, they have the expertise

in the things that they want to present

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on, they just don't have the Doc.

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Natasha Moharter: That is so helpful.

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And so you do provide co-sponsorship.

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Dr. Amy Marschall: Yeah, so basically

if someone has a course that's

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appropriate for psychologists, I can

provide a review of their course, and

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essentially kind of go through all

their training material, and determine

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if it's appropriate for psychologists.

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And then APA is very particular

and has some very specific

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boxes that they need checked.

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So I go through and I make sure

you're checking all those boxes.

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And if yes, then I can say, your course

is approved for APA continuing education,

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because I'm approved to approve you.

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Natasha Moharter: And what a great

opportunity, especially like you said,

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because APA has a lot of hoops that

you have to jump through and you being

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a psychologist you've gone through the

process, you know, the requirements,

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you know what they're asking.

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Dr. Amy Marschall: Yeah, and it's very,

their process is also very expensive.

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What I found as well is that they don't

have prices listed on the site, but

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they'll say like, this is how much it

costs to apply, but they don't tell

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you that that's not the only cost.

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So I applied and I paid to apply.

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I also, hired someone who has

done the application before

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to review all of my materials.

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I compensated her, which I guess

is not an essential expense.

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I could have just submitted it on

my own and hoped that they took it,

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but they typically for, well, they

did this to me and I'm told that

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they kind of do this for everybody.

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They said, you have some stuff here that

looks like it could be okay, but we need

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more information to make a decision.

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I received that notification

and I had to pay to see their

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feedback on my application.

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And then after I fixed the application,

I had to pay for the resubmission.

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And then they did approve me

of course, because otherwise we

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wouldn't be having this conversation.

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And then I had to pay a fee

to activate my approval.

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Natasha Moharter: Oh my gosh.

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Dr. Amy Marschall: Um, And then they said

the approval is good for two years, but at

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the end of the first year, I had to submit

an annual report of what I've been up to.

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It's not a reapplication.

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It's kind of just the heads up,

but there's also a fee that goes

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with submitting your annual report.

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So it's kind of just, it's

fees all the way down.

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I said this on my initial application

but one of my intentions with applying is

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that continuing ed gets so expensive and I

would love to have to provide low cost CEs

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I'd love to have options that are free.

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And I'm like, okay, but I still have to

make up all these fees, not to mention

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that, you know, I do put money into

creating the courses, like primarily

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the ones I create, I'm the speaker.

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So I don't necessarily like I get

the money when the course sells.

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I don't have to pay someone a speaker fee.

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But, I pay a professional human to

caption everything so that it's not

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AI generated and it's more accurate.

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Zoom has the closed captions, but the

auto generated ones are not always

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the most accurate so I like when I

can hire a real person to go back

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through and get everything right.

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I am not at a point with my revenue

streams to hire a live interpreter,

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but I can hire someone to take

their time afterwards and just

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get to it when they get to it.

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And, there's accessibility things

that cost money that are important, I

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think, if you're going to be offering,

if you're going to be doing this, you

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need to be like making it accessible.

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Accessibility matters,

and that's a priority.

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Honestly, I mean, I want more

people to be able to offer CEs.

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And also my other motivation with the

partnerships was, well, if we cut some

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kind of a deal and that's another revenue

stream, then I can make some stuff

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free because I've made back my fees.

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Natasha Moharter: I think you

bring up such an important point

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because when we have resource

it funds what we can do, right?

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Psychologically when people

are struggling financially it

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really zaps your creativity.

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So why can't we be paid

for the work that we do?

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And creating kind of different additional

income streams to be able to do that.

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Dr. Amy Marschall: I care

about a lot of things.

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One of the things I care about is

living inside, and that costs money.

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Natasha Moharter: Go figure!

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And the lights?

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You know?

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Dr. Amy Marschall: The Wi Fi that we're

using to have this conversation, you know,

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I can call Xcel Energy and be like, do you

know how many people I helped last month?

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And they're going to say, that's nice.

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Natasha Moharter: Yeah.

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Where's our money?

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So another question, what has been

your favorite part of this journey?

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Dr. Amy Marschall: I really like that.

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I'm able to focus on things like topics

that are important to me without having

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to get anybody else's green light on it.

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One of my areas of expertise is

neurodiversity affirming mental

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health care, which is a newer thing

for anybody to be talking about.

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Basically recognizing that, the

traditional medical model, not saying

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that there's no place for the medical

model of things, but this assumption

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that if you're neurodivergent, then

you're a problem that we need to fix.

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And, you know, you're a burden to the

people around you and your brain is

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inherently bad and wrong, and we need

to fix it versus figuring out what

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your needs are and supporting them.

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You know, there's emerging research

that shows that that does more harm

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than good, if you can believe it.

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I've been really wanting to develop more

in that space of, because I've noticed

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that a lot of providers are trying to take

this more seriously, which is fantastic,

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but they don't know where to start.

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I have, encountered a number of

situations where someone's like,

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yes, we're neurodiversity affirming.

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And I'll say, well, what

do you think that means?

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And essentially, it boils down

to they've heard that certain

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communities like that term.

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So they put it on their

marketing materials.

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And I'm like, that's not, you

know, you can't just do that.

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That's like me saying that I'm

certified in EMDR when I'm not like,

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you can't just, you can't just say

stuff as a marketing buzzword, you've

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got to actually be committed to it.

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So I was like, I'm going to create

content that teaches you what this means.

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How to go about doing it and like truly

being committed to it versus just,

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oh, this is what I'm supposed to be

saying is important to me right now.

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Natasha Moharter: Right, the buzz, just

because it's a buzzword doesn't mean that

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we need to be plastering it everywhere if

we're not actually embracing that, right?

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Dr. Amy Marschall: I mean, speaking of

being neuro affirming, like, I mean,

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I'm not saying neuro, you know, I don't

fall into that toxic positivity trap

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of like neurodivergence is secretly

a superpower and it's not like that,

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but you know, I am autistic and ADHD.

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And part of why I, you know, when

you're reading off the stuff I'm

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doing right now, I'm like, Oh,

that's kind of a long list, isn't it?

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That's why like I've got the hyper focus

and there, there are positives to that.

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And there is a strength based

approach to be taken there.

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And, you know, I'm not, I'm not

saying that I'm not disabled.

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Just yesterday, my husband did the

grocery shopping instead of me because

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I had an overstimulation moment and

he was like, what food do we need?

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And I was like, I can't

remember any foods.

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Like that exists.

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Natasha Moharter: So, and you're

providing information for therapists

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to help people like you, right?

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Yeah.

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That is so neat.

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And so it sounds like a lot of

it comes from kind of personal

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experiences and interest as well.

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Dr. Amy Marschall: I think there's

a lot of, I mean, there's a need

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in any area to be like, centering

the lived experience voices.

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And I do say in every single one of my

presentations and every single one of

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my publications, I'm like, if you're

listening to me to learn about autism

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from an autistic person, that's awesome.

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But if I'm the only autistic

person you're listening to,

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then you're not doing it right.

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Because, you know, I'm a voice, but

I'm definitely not the only voice

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people should be listening to, but

also part of why my focus is on that

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is because I can tell you what it's

like to be a business owner with ADHD

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because I am a business owner with ADHD.

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Natasha Moharter: A

successful business owner.

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Dr. Amy Marschall: Yeah,

I'd like to think so.

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And I mean, part of that is though,

because the supports that I need

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are provided in my personal life.

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If we meet the needs and we support people

and not that you have to be a business

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owner for your life to have value but

if that's a goal you have for yourself.

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It certainly can be possible when

the right support is in place.

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Natasha Moharter: So

cool and so encouraging.

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Like you're talking about, there's

so many other aspects to this.

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We don't just have to show up in

the therapy realm and be providers.

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Business owners, we can be

therapists and clinicians.

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And I think the other thing that

I, really appreciated from what you

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just shared was that it's important

to listen to other people as well.

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There's so much room for all of us to be

here and to share wisdom and expertise.

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Dr. Amy Marschall: There's never going

to be one person who's the ultimate

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voice on everything, and I can have my

corner and everybody else can have theirs

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as well I want to create a program for

people who want to be neurodiversity

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affirming, where you can get a

certification if you complete certain

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education and consultation, checkpoints

essentially, show showing that you're

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truly committed to it and showing that

you've truly learned about these concepts.

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I'm hiring a couple of other

autistic speakers to create the

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content so that it's not just me.

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I'm giving the option that I'm like,

not you have to take these specific

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courses, but you have to get education

on this list of topics, and I've created

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courses on each of these topics, but

if you want to take that course on this

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topic, as long as it meets the criteria,

you don't have to buy any courses from

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me in order to seek the certification.

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I am going to have an application fee

for the certification itself, just

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because I've got to go through all the

materials, but I'm trying to keep it,

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you know, as accessible as possible.

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Natasha Moharter: You are

creating a certification process.

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Dr. Amy Marschall: Yeah.

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Tentatively the name is, Certified

Neurodiversity Affirming Mental Health

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Professional, and then specifically

for the autistic community.

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So, want people to learn about

introductory information on what it

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means to be neurodiversity affirming,

what that means, why it matters,

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information specifically clinical

skills from a neurodiversity affirming

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lens with the autistic community.

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And that can be, you know, if you

do therapy, it can be specific to

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kids, specific to adults, specific

to, diagnostic assessment, kind

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of whatever your niche is there.

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Education on the link of autism

and trauma because existing in

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a world that is not designed for

you inherently causes some stress.

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Then, you know, some, education on,

autism and gender because it's not a

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hundred percent, but autistic community

is more likely to be trans or non binary,

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um, as well as continuing education

specifically on autistic experiences.

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Like cultural competence with autistic

experiences and racial competence

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with autistic experiences because a

lot of the neurodiversity affirming

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voices do come from white people.

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I'm paying someone else to speak to

that who is more qualified in that

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domain than me but I feel like it's,

you know, if I'm going to throw out a

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certification program and ignore that

piece, then like, what am I doing?

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The impact of misdiagnosis and

then about um, autistics are

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at higher risk for suicide.

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So like that risk assessment piece,

there's higher risk for suicide and

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there's the inherent systemic trauma

of involuntary hospitalization.

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So there's nuance there that needs

to be addressed at all angles.

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So yeah, that's kind of the rundown

of topics that'll be covered.

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And I'm sure I'm not perfect about, I

mean, I know I'm not perfect about it, but

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you can make efforts, you know, there's

a difference between trying and not

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trying, and we can at least make efforts.

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Natasha Moharter: So important to

remember that we don't have to be perfect.

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Dr. Amy Marschall: Yeah.

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And that's another reason why I'm like,

look, if you don't like anything that

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I have to offer, but you like the idea

of this certification, you don't have

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to take a single course from me or

from someone I've paid to make content.

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You can fully go external.

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As long as it's truly

affirming courses, then fine.

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Natasha Moharter: Do you have any

tips or advice for somebody kind

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of exploring their content ideas?

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Dr. Amy Marschall: Yeah, I started

off creating content because people

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were saying, where can I learn

more about this specific topic?

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And I was having trouble finding

exactly what I was looking for.

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It's kind of like, with authors, they tell

you, write the book that you want to read.

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I was like, I'm going to create the course

that I wanted to take, but couldn't find.

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Everything from there has been,

I want a course on what it means

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to be neurodiversity affirming.

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I want a course on autism and trauma.

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Like I'm just going to create

stuff that is what I wish existed.

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You know, I wish there was a way.

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For people to get certified and show

their true commitment to this approach

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to treatment versus just being able to

slap a word on your marketing material.

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Technically, you can call

anything certification.

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You can just be like, yes, I'm certified.

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But you can also say, okay,

what makes a good certification?

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And I also like the outline that I just

ran by, that I kind of shared, I did hire

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a consult again, someone who's developed

certification programs in the past.

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And I was like, here's what I want to do.

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If I called this a certification,

is that legitimate?

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And if not, what would I need to

change about it to be legitimate in

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calling it a certification to kind

of, again, get that external feedback.

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Okay, like you're not just, you

know, cause there are organizations

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that will just be like, now you're

"certified" after like eight hours.

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And it's like, I mean, technically that

word is not regulated and you can say

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that but like it should be like licensure.

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You can't just say you're licensed.

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We should have something

similar for certification maybe.

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Natasha Moharter: Something else that's

standing out to me is that you're talking

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about not reinventing the wheel, right?

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You're using your creativity.

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You're identifying the problems

that you want to solve.

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And you're also saying, okay,

now who else is in the community?

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What are other resources out

there that I can utilize so

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I can keep my momentum going.

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I'm not reinventing the wheel.

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That's going to save me

a lot of time, right?

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Time is our most valuable resource.

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Dr. Amy Marschall: So like, when

we go into practice and they're

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like, find your niche, find your

scope, continuing ed is similar.

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Like, what do you know about, what are

you qualified to tell other people about.

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Nobody's going to be qualified to

speak on absolutely everything.

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I'll regularly just kind of,

Put out a blast and be like,

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what should I talk about next?

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And someone will mention something.

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And I'm like, I'm not even kind of

qualified to talk about that, I hope

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you find what you're looking for.

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Maybe if you're saying it because you

have expertise on it, you can create it.

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Natasha Moharter: The other thing

that stands out too is that,

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representation again matters and

our voice and the way that we say

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it might resonate with somebody and

might not resonate with somebody else.

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And I know there are various authors

that I read and, somebody else that

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I've read maybe has said the same exact

stuff, but they didn't resonate with me.

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This person over here did.

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And so again, getting our voice out there,

you don't have to be an expert, right?

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You can be a contributor, you

can get your stuff out there.

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And you don't have to know

everything about everything.

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And it's okay to say, I'll get back

to you and I will do some research.

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Dr. Amy Marschall: Yeah, I read somewhere.

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There's this show to tell the truth

where there's three people who are all

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claiming to be one specific person.

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You have to guess who's lying.

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I was reading something that was

like, you can always tell who's

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the real expert because ask them a

technical question and the expert at

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some point will say, I don't know.

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The liars will make something up to

be like, I definitely know everything

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about this, but the real expert is

the one who's willing to be like,

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actually, that's not something

that I have at the top of my brain.

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I can look it up though.

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I know where to find it.

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Natasha Moharter: So question

is there a difference between

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live and asynchronous training?

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Dr. Amy Marschall: So APA has two tracks.

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There was a discount if

you signed up for both.

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So I just got both.

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There's live and then

there's home studies.

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As the names suggest, the live courses

are done live and the home studies are

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done at your own pace, your own time.

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I've primarily done home studies just

because I found that it's again for

390

me, I like home studies because I

can pause and I can go back and I can

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break down a one day training into

like an hour a day for a week and get

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through all the content, which is great

because we are all incredibly busy.

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Having ADHD, there are times that

I'll listen to something and suddenly

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be like, Oh, hey, I have been

zoning out for the last 15 minutes.

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And with a home study, I can just

hop back 15 minutes on the video

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and still get that information.

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I do a lot of videos, but, it

doesn't have to just be videos.

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You can do written modules, you

can do other ways of learning.

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And that's the cool

thing about home studies.

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A live webinar kind of has to be me

talking, but a home study can have

401

components and actually like my I mean my

home studies all have video because I like

402

to relay information I like to hit record

and then just kind of talk for a while.

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Um, I've called it

monetizing my info dumps.

404

But a lot of my home studies have

follow up homework assignments.

405

So like, um, like I have a home study

on diagnosing autism in adults and it's

406

three CEs, but I believe my lecture

is closer to two hours because part

407

of the CE is I provide my template

for how I write those reports.

408

And I say now that

you've watched the video.

409

Review these templates, spend this

amount of time reviewing the templates,

410

and then spend this amount of time

creating your own template, and

411

then pull it into your own practice.

412

So, I don't have to talk for three hours

to have it be three CEs, but it has

413

to be three hours on the participant's

end and then they not only have the

414

knowledge, but they come out of the

course with here's how I want my

415

reports to look and I can make my report

writing time more efficient because

416

I have made my templates ready to go.

417

Natasha Moharter: You're giving people

the information and then it's like you can

418

literally take this and go implement it.

419

Dr. Amy Marschall: Which is, by the way,

that's one thing that APA really likes.

420

They want you to say what is someone

taking this course, what are they

421

going to be able to do the second

that certificate is in their hands?

422

What are they going to be able to

do because they took the course

423

and sometimes they get I'll be

honest, they get particular in

424

ways that are sometimes pedantic.

425

But the, you know, one of the things is

like your outcome objective can't be,

426

I'm going to understand this concept.

427

Your objective has to be, what am I

going to do with that information?

428

Like, I'm going to be able to

take this concept and craft a

429

treatment plan from that lens.

430

I'm going to understand this concept

and have five actionable things that

431

I could do in a session because of

my understanding of this concept.

432

Cause that's the difference between

continuing ed and just kind of

433

learning about a topic because you're

interested in it is being able to

434

say like, here's how this information

is like informing my career.

435

Natasha Moharter: Absolutely.

436

I think it's such a helpful

framework especially when you're

437

starting to develop the courses.

438

One of my experiences in creating

content was I wanted to throw

439

everything in there because I was

like, they need to know everything.

440

Am I really doing a good job?

441

I did a training.

442

It was an hour long training on

OCD and I threw in so much info.

443

The responses that I got

were, this was great.

444

And it was a little bit like

drinking from a fire hose.

445

And I think we need more info on this.

446

And I was like, oh, I only needed

to bring like two of those concepts.

447

Dr. Amy Marschall: And another thing

too, is that, typically, well, I

448

don't know about NBCC and the other

approval processes because I've

449

only done APA, but the standard is

everything has to be appropriate

450

for someone who's post licensure.

451

So I can't come in and be like,

here's what a therapy session,

452

like it has to be material that's

relevant to the people I'm marketing

453

the course for, but there's levels.

454

So you can say this is introductory,

intermediate, or advanced.

455

So like I have a course on what it

means to be neurodiversity affirming

456

as a mental health professional.

457

And that one is marketed as an

introductory level course to this concept.

458

And then I have a course on neurodiversity

affirming, autism evaluations.

459

If you don't know what it means to be

neurodiversity affirming, you should take

460

this course first, or another course like

this first and then come back because I'm

461

not going to sit here and review all of

the philosophy behind this because you're

462

here to learn how to take that knowledge

and implement it in this setting.

463

If you want me to talk for an hour

and you want it to be intro level,

464

then I'll get into here's what the DSM

says and here's what that looks like.

465

And here's what a level is and here's

how to use that label in a way that's

466

going to be helpful rather than harmful.

467

But if you're like, okay, we'd like these

to be people who already understand what

468

this topic is and they want to elevate

things that they're already doing, then

469

I'm like, all right, I'll start up here.

470

Natasha Moharter: You don't have to

throw in all the information, you

471

can really conceptualize, okay, this

is for intro, this is for moderately

472

advanced, and then we have advanced.

473

Dr. Amy Marschall: For OCD, if

it's an intro and it's like, okay,

474

you're a mental health provider.

475

You obviously know what OCD is, but

you maybe don't have any experience

476

treating it versus this is for

people who specialize in OCD, who

477

want to get more advanced concepts.

478

The amount that you explain what OCD

is and how prevalent it is and how to

479

diagnose it like there's things you can

skip over if you're like everybody in

480

this room already specializes in OCD.

481

Natasha Moharter: Absolutely.

482

So that brings us to marketing

and kind of niching down.

483

And I think when we talk about

who are we advertising this to?

484

Is it an intro level?

485

Is it more advanced?

486

And we know that all the business gurus

say, you have to know your market.

487

You have to know your population.

488

What are their problems

that they need solved?

489

And how do you, create that solution

and that bridge from where they're

490

at to where they want to be.

491

Dr. Amy Marschall: So there's kind of,

and I think this was me, the way that

492

I was interpreting the information,

because they're like, find a problem,

493

and offer a solution and I'm like,

Oh, you want me to tell you the

494

problems in the mental health field?

495

All right, I've got a list.

496

But then I started offering solutions

to problems that like maybe other people

497

weren't seeing as a priority to solve.

498

I'm like, well, it's, it's a problem

that historically the field of

499

psychology has offered treatment

options for autism that objectively

500

there's research to show that this

treatment increases their risk for PTSD.

501

In what world is it acceptable and ethical

for me to recommend that my client do

502

something that is likely to increase the

risk that they're going to be traumatized.

503

That's not okay.

504

So I start speaking about that and a

lot of people are like No, and it's

505

like, what do you mean no, and so my,

the problem is that I try to market

506

to the problems as I see them, and

then other people don't agree with me.

507

One of the books I wrote is on ethical

and legal clinical documentation

508

with children and adolescents.

509

A few people that I've talked

about it with were like, a lot of

510

people just don't bother keeping

good records like they don't really

511

care to write good progress notes.

512

It's a problem because we're supposed

to write and keep good documentation.

513

But when you're marketing a book of,

hey, we're supposed to be doing this

514

do you want to do it better to someone

who's like no I'm just not going to

515

bother to do it at all they're still

not going to buy your book, they're

516

still not going to attend your course.

517

Finding the problems that other people

are also willing to work on, and also

518

like being able to market things in a

way where you're explaining to people

519

why this is an issue, even if they

maybe didn't recognize it as an issue

520

before you brought it up to them.

521

Natasha Moharter: Absolutely.

522

And there's so many things that

are vying for our attention, right?

523

Dr. Amy Marschall: Yeah well I

think you have to like I do have

524

a feedback form that everyone

has the opportunity to fill out.

525

And I have a contact form on my

website specifically for people who

526

have taken my courses for questions

or comments that they want to send me.

527

Natasha Moharter: Whenever you're

putting stuff out there into the

528

world, people can have opinions, right?

529

They don't, nobody, not

everybody is going to agree.

530

I think that it can be vulnerable to

put our work out there or to teach

531

something and in some of my eval

forms, you know, the majority is good.

532

And then sometimes people just

have like, oh, you didn't do this.

533

And you're like, Oh, I didn't

know that that was important.

534

Okay.

535

That's, that's good to know.

536

Ouch.

537

A little bit.

538

And okay, moving on.

539

Dr. Amy Marschall: Some of what I teach

is here's an intervention that some

540

of my clients have found helpful and

another provider is going to be like,

541

I would never do that in my sessions.

542

That's fine.

543

Clients who take to their style better

than mine still need providers to go to.

544

I don't have time to see everybody and

I'm not the right fit for all the clients.

545

I've gotten feedback that my

courses speak on social justice too

546

much, but I'm like, diagnosis is

political, psychology is political.

547

If you don't want to hear it in your

CEs, then go to another provider.

548

Natasha Moharter: There you go.

549

Dr. Amy Marschall: Well, now I'm going

to talk about social justice even harder.

550

Like, what does this have

to do with diagnosing ADHD?

551

And I'm like, well, the

disparities in access to an

552

accurate diagnosis, first of all.

553

Ableism, discrimination, stigma,

second of all, like, where

554

would you like me to begin?

555

Neurodivergent people have higher

rates of poverty and there's a

556

genetic link in most neurodivergences.

557

So you've got kids who are more

likely to have this diagnosis

558

because of systemic oppression that

their parents have grown up with.

559

And then you've got the additional

barriers to them getting

560

the support that they need.

561

And it perpetuates this cycle.

562

I'm sorry, you don't see the connection,

but you know, maybe if this isn't

563

important to you, you shouldn't be

working with a marginalized population.

564

Natasha Moharter: And you're

bringing that in your content,

565

you're sharing that knowledge.

566

I also really appreciate your honesty with

that marketing is kind of a challenge.

567

I didn't take any marketing or

business courses in my graduate career.

568

Dr. Amy Marschall: And if anything,

they kind of teach us that marketing's

569

icky, like, oh, you're a mental health

professional you're here to help people

570

you're not here to like sell something

and I'm like, well, you know, we didn't

571

invent capitalism we just live here, and

we have to, first of all, we can't help

572

anybody if they don't know that we exist.

573

I have my book coming out next April, The

Neurodiversity Affirming Mental Health

574

Care What Every Therapist Needs to Know.

575

And my editor was like, what if instead

of marketing, we called it visibility.

576

And I was like, I love that, because

577

Natasha Moharter: That is amazing!

578

Dr. Amy Marschall: It's not that I'm some

like, sleazy stereotype of the used car

579

salesman, who's like trying to trick you.

580

I'm trying to let you know that I

have something that could help you.

581

But that makes the marketing

difficult because I don't

582

know how to be like flashy.

583

And like, you know, I talked with the

marketing department at PESI because

584

they're like we're putting together

the materials so that people know your

585

course exists so they can take it,

and they're like how do we make it

586

flashy and I was like, I don't know.

587

Why should people take this course

and I'm like, this is, this is good.

588

It's good.

589

Natasha Moharter: It's important.

590

Dr. Amy Marschall: Important topic

like I don't know and they're like

591

okay but, you know, there are a

lot of courses on important topics.

592

We need yours to stand out

or no one's going to see it.

593

And I'm like, yeah.

594

Natasha Moharter: And sometimes when we

have topics that aren't so flashy or fun,

595

there's still so much importance to that.

596

There's still a market for that as well.

597

Dr. Amy Marschall: Trauma informed

care, flashy, like, hey, we're going

598

to talk about supporting someone who

survived horrific, grotesque abuse, like.

599

See you Friday morning.

600

It's going to be awesome.

601

Natasha Moharter: Like bring your coffee!

602

Dr. Amy Marschall: Let's

make it fun and lighthearted.

603

Like, you know, it's important.

604

I had my autism and trauma course recently

and I was like, we're going to talk

605

about how the mental health system has

let this community down and hurt the

606

people that we're supposed to be helping.

607

I don't know how to make that

sexy and catchy for a commercial.

608

I don't know what to

tell you other than that.

609

It matters.

610

So that's something that's

been a work in progress for me.

611

Cause I do have social media presence,

but a lot of my following is like, it's

612

awesome that you're making these courses.

613

I'm not a therapist, so I'm

not going to take it, but I'm

614

glad you're putting it out.

615

And I'm like, that's great.

616

And I'm glad that the people I'm here to

help feel that this content is important

617

for mental health professionals to have.

618

And also like, how do I get it in front

of the actual mental health professionals?

619

Natasha Moharter: Like you said, there's

that balance, right, between I don't want

620

to be salesy, but I do want to be visible.

621

I think that's another really neat part

of becoming a CEU provider is that you're

622

not just helping the one therapist, right?

623

Dr. Amy Marschall: There's only so many

people you or I could see in a given

624

week doing therapy full time, but if you

create a course that a hundred people

625

take, you're now by extension helping

every client of those hundred people.

626

Natasha Moharter: And the other thing

with the home study is you don't

627

have to have butt in seat hours.

628

It's like money while you sleep because

they are able to take it whenever

629

it is a convenience to them not just

Friday mornings at eight or I do

630

mine on Saturday mornings, which is

a day that typically people are off.

631

Dr. Amy Marschall: Like, I'm

international, like in New

632

Zealand, it is, it's about 7am on

Monday in New Zealand right now.

633

Natasha Moharter: How interesting!

634

Dr. Amy Marschall: It's hard.

635

I'm doing some live webinars in

New Zealand in the coming months.

636

And the times are so like, we're

finding times that, that are my business

637

hours and their business, but the

overlap is like a three hour window.

638

Natasha Moharter: What is it like

to be a provider in New Zealand?

639

Dr. Amy Marschall: Yeah, so that

happened because, I got married

640

in 2019 and we had our honeymoon.

641

We went to Wellington and then we

took this guided tour of the North

642

Island up to Auckland and then we

went to Waiheke Island, which is north

643

of Auckland there are a couple of,

vineyards there and we did wine tastings.

644

It was awesome.

645

While I was there, I met

a woman who runs a clinic.

646

And so I ended up having an impromptu

job interview, like a normal

647

thing to do on your honeymoon.

648

So, I ended up with a job offer in

Auckland, that was offered to me, I

649

believe it was the 10th of March, 2020.

650

You're not going to

believe what happens next.

651

Natasha Moharter: A couple days later.

652

Dr. Amy Marschall: We're figuring

stuff out and they're like, you

653

have to go to your doctor and

get an immigration physical.

654

That's the first thing you have to do.

655

So they send me the form a week later

and I call my doctor and I'm like,

656

Hey, I need an immigration physical.

657

And my doctor said, we just had our first,

confirmed community transmission of COVID.

658

We're not doing non essential procedures.

659

Please call us back in two weeks.

660

And so when they said, call us back

in two weeks, I spent those two

661

weeks putting together my licensure

application and I sent it in and then

662

their licensing board closed and their

borders closed for like 18 months.

663

I guess that's a bust.

664

And then all of a sudden, one day I

got an email that was like, Hey, you

665

know, we've processed your application.

666

When are you getting here?

667

And I was like, I thought

that wasn't an option anymore.

668

So I was initially registered non

practicing, but then with telehealth,

669

I've, I activated my license and I've

just been working remotely, which is cool.

670

I get to specialize, you know, a

lot of ADHD and autistic people have

671

a weird relationship with sleep.

672

So like when I'm scheduling people, I'll

get appointment requests and I'll email

673

and I'll be like, Do you realize that

you selected an appointment at 3 a.m.?

674

Like, was there an issue

with the time conversion?

675

They're like, no, I know that's 3 a.

676

m.

677

I'm going to be up anyway.

678

And I was like, all right.

679

I've got four time zones in the U

S plus the New Zealand time zone.

680

I think this is a good thing, but

the New Zealand licensing board takes

681

cultural competence very seriously.

682

So they're like, all of your cultural

experiences are remote and I'm like, yes.

683

Because I am in South Dakota.

684

And they're like, okay, but

you've got to do some in person.

685

So we're trying to figure out

when that's going to happen.

686

Natasha Moharter: Is there anything

else from your perspective that

687

would be helpful for a CEU provider

that's on this journey that wants

688

to maybe follow in your footsteps?

689

Dr. Amy Marschall: You don't have to do

all the things you can decide what things

690

you really, really want to focus on.

691

And there's just so many different

options and routes for your business.

692

You can say, I want to get my own

CE sponsorship, or you can say, I

693

want to partner with someone else to

sponsor these if you don't want to

694

be doing the marketing side of things

at all, you can say, I'm going to

695

apply with this organization and then

they're going to do that piece of it.

696

And I can just focus on making content.

697

It's really just kind of what do

you want your energy to go into?

698

Cause there's a trade off like with

me getting my own sponsorship, it

699

was because I wanted to choose the

topics that were important to me.

700

And not have to convince someone else

that those topics were important.

701

If I were using someone

else's sponsorship, I would

702

need that buy in from them.

703

Say what you will about PESI.

704

They have the biggest

mailing list of anybody.

705

And if you do a course with them,

people are going to know that it exists,

706

it's going to get in front of people.

707

I've had people I have not spoken

to in over a decade emailing me

708

and they were like, this is you.

709

Right.

710

And I'm like, yes.

711

Natasha Moharter: And

it's effective, right?

712

If they have the resource, it's like

you said, sometimes that can be the

713

choice that you make as a CEU provider.

714

If you don't want to do all of the things.

715

Before we wrap up,

716

can you share with us a little bit

more about the trainings that you

717

have, the certification that's coming

up, your book, and any other of

718

your amazing resources that would

be helpful for us to know about?

719

Dr. Amy Marschall: Yeah, sure.

720

So, on my website, there's the

blog, and I think I'm up to, like,

721

530 posts or something like that.

722

And that's all sources

that are freely accessible.

723

Some of it is for, the general public.

724

Like I talk about, here's

how health insurance works.

725

Here's why your therapist might

not want to be in network.

726

Like, here's how you can argue

with your insurance company to

727

give you coverage, stuff like that.

728

But then there is a link on the

website to my courses that I've

729

done with other organizations.

730

And then there are 13 courses

that I've created for CEs that are

731

available, through the website.

732

I've written quite a few books, there's a

link on the website that has all of them.

733

But there's, uh, there's a few, you

know, telehealth, Neurodiversity

734

Affirming Support for Autistic People,

neurodiversity affirming therapy as that

735

umbrella term, Clinical Documentation

with Children and Adolescents.

736

I also have three children's books,

one co written with each of my cats.

737

Slipper the Penguin, which is

about a penguin who thinks she's

738

bad at being a bird because

she can't fly like her friends.

739

Then she meets other penguins and

learns that she's good at other things.

740

She also has a board game that my

illustrator and I just launched

741

it's a cooperative board game where

you work together to help Slipper,

742

you know, find her penguin friends.

743

But my cats, one has diabetes.

744

He's 14 years old, Armani.

745

So he has a children's book

about how the vet helped him

746

feel better when he got sick.

747

And then Vera, our other cat, was a stray.

748

And she has a trauma response to a number

of strange things we think it's connected

749

to the fact that she used to live outside.

750

Her book is about how she gets scared.

751

Even though she's safe now, she still

gets scared sometimes because she

752

knows what it's like to not be safe.

753

And how we help her when she's feeling

scared, even if it doesn't make sense to

754

us, why something would be scary for her.

755

So, you know, trauma,

illness, neurodivergence.

756

It's kind of checking all the boxes.

757

Natasha Moharter: And what's so

cool is just the creativity behind

758

this, and that you don't just have

to provide a live webinar right you

759

can find your creative aspects and

things that are important to you.

760

My humble biased opinion, our

pets can be so, so important

761

and so helpful in this journey.

762

Dr. Amy Marschall: Yeah.

763

Oh, my first children's book is Armani

Doesn't Feel Well, and it's because

764

when he, when he was, well, first of

765

and therapy was online, I had a lot of

kids who didn't want to come to therapy

766

because I've been in Zoom all day.

767

I don't want to be in Zoom anymore.

768

So I trained him to join Zoom

meetings and he would get a treat.

769

So they would come.

770

Vera, I tried to train her

to come get treats on Zoom.

771

She had no interest in being on camera.

772

And I said, you know what?

773

Fine.

774

I respect that you're not

obligated, but Armani would.

775

And then he was, diagnosed

with diabetes and he has to get

776

insulin injections twice a day.

777

So when I work with kids who either

have a medical issue or if they're

778

taking medication for their mental

health or for ADHD or whatever,

779

Armani is the example of, you know,

he doesn't always like it either, but

780

when we go to poke him, he growls,

but he holds still and lets it happen.

781

Maybe I'm projecting a sentience

onto my cat, but I like to think it's

782

because he knows I don't enjoy this,

but after you do it, I feel better.

783

So I would like you to do the thing

that makes me feel better basically.

784

And I was like, it could

be a children's book.

785

Natasha Moharter: You really put a lot of

effort and work into your books, into your

786

content creation, the trainings, right?

787

Getting your name out there, in

terms of sharing the knowledge

788

and the wisdom that you have about

topics that are important to you.

789

And my guess is, even when, content

creation isn't fun, when we're kind

790

of like, I have to do what, right?

791

This isn't the part that I signed up for.

792

Because it matters to you so much, you

can keep going, you can keep pushing.

793

Dr. Amy Marschall: Yeah.

794

Natasha Moharter: If people want to

find you where would they reach you?

795

Dr. Amy Marschall: The main way would be

my website, resiliencymentalhealth.com.

796

Resiliency with the Y.

797

I've got my blog on there.

798

So there's a whole bunch of

resources that are free to access.

799

And there's a contact form

for continuing education.

800

Basically, if it's not regarding

an existing course, you can

801

just write collaboration under

what course it's regarding.

802

If you're like, I want to get my own

APA sponsorship, but I want a consult

803

to help with that, I can be that.

804

If you want to collaborate, and I sponsor

the course you've already created, RMH

805

education has the courses that I have

created and I'm currently co sponsoring.

806

So if you need to check

your CE boxes, I have that.

807

The most common question I get

following someone taking one of

808

my courses is does such and such

licensing board recognize this?

809

You would have to ask them.

810

There are 50 United States,

several US territories also

811

have their own licensing boards.

812

And each of those states also has

a psychology board, a social work

813

board, a counseling board, a marriage

and family therapy board, It is

814

literally hundreds of licensing boards.

815

No, I cannot keep track of

each of the requirements.

816

I have a hard enough time

keeping track of the CE boxes I

817

have to check for my licenses.

818

So I know people want to know

and they want to be sure and I 100

819

percent respect that, but you gotta

ask the board what they'll accept.

820

If they accept APA then

they'll accept mine.

821

If you have an ethics requirement, if

they accept under APA standards, then

822

mine that say ethics, would be accepted,

then it just depends on the board.

823

Natasha Moharter: Dr.

824

Amy Marschall, again, thank you

so much for your time and for

825

your willingness to be here today.

826

It has just been such an honor to

have this conversation with you.

827

I know we briefly interacted on the

Facebook group, but this was just

828

such an honor to get to meet you today

virtually, with the Wi Fi that we pay for.

829

Dr. Amy Marschall:

Yeah, thank you so much.

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It was great to be here and

it's always good to talk about

831

everything that I'm doing.