Welcome to Optimal Insights. In this episode, Optimal Blue experts discuss the launch of the Mortgage Rate (OB30C) futures contract. This capital markets instrument represents a significant advancement in hedging strategies for lenders, providing a new tool that directly relates to the primary mortgage rate.

Jim Glennon, Ben Larcombe, and Kevin Foley discuss the implications of this innovative financial instrument, which aims to enhance the efficiency of hedging mortgage rate pipelines.

Additionally, the speakers highlight recent positive inflation data and its impact on the bond market, illustrating the current economic landscape. Listeners are encouraged to consider the broader potential of the Mortgage Rate futures contract as part of their hedging strategies, with a focus on cost-effectiveness and long-term stability.

Takeaways:

• Recent inflation data has led to a rally in the bond market, easing rate hike concerns.
• The launch of the Mortgage Rate futures based on the 30-Year Fixed Rate Conforming Optimal Blue Mortgage Market Index (OBMMI) marks a significant innovation in mortgage rate hedging.
• Mortgage rate futures provide lenders with a new tool to hedge their pipelines effectively.
• Bill Pulte's nomination as FHFA director could influence homeownership and housing supply strategies.
• The OBMMI now offers intraday values, enhancing real-time market analysis for lenders.

About the Mortgage Rate futures:

• The CME Group launched the Mortgage Rate Futures on January 13, 2025
• These contracts are cash-settled and based on the 30-Year Fixed Rate Conforming Optimal Blue Mortgage Market Index (OBMMI).
• These futures contracts are designed to provide market participants with a precise and efficient tool for managing risk across mortgage pipelines, servicing rights, and securities
• They enable clients to trade the primary-secondary mortgage spread and gain margin offsets with other U.S. Treasury futures, TBA futures, and Eris SOFR swap futures.

More info: https://www2.optimalblue.com/cme-group-to-launch-mortgage-rate-futures-in-january-2025/

Tune in to gain valuable insights to help you stay ahead and maximize your profitability in the ever-evolving mortgage landscape. #OptimizeYourAdvantage #MaximizeProfitability

Hosts and Guests:

• Jim Glennon, VP of Hedging & Trading Client Services, Optimal Blue
• Ben Larcombe
• Kevin Foley

Production Team:

• Executive Producer: Sara Holtz
• Producer: Matt Gilhooly

Commentary included in the podcast shall not be construed as, nor is Optimal Blue providing, any legal, trading, hedging, or financial advice.

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Keywords: Real-time data insights, Capital markets commentary, Mortgage industry, Profitability, Lenders, Investors, Rate fluctuations, Mortgage landscape, Expert advice, Optimal Blue, Secondary marketing automation, Pricing accuracy, Margin protection, Risk management, Originators, Originations

Mentioned in this episode:

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Welcome to Optimal Insights, your weekly source for real time rate data and expert capital markets commentary brought to you by Optimal Blue. Let's dive in and help you maximize.

Your profitability this week.

Welcome to Optimal Insights, your weekly source for timely market analysis and expert commentary from Optimal Blue. I'm your host, Jim Glennon, vice president of hedging and Trading client Services at Optimal Blue.

Our clients and industry partners have long relied on Optimal Blue for trusted insights and commentary, and these podcasts are an evolution of our commitment to keeping the industry informed. Let's dive into today's episode. Hey, welcome Ben. Good to be here.

Good to be here. Morning, Jim.

Welcome, welcome. Joining all of you here it is Friday. We are once again recording a day early. We have the the holiday coming up here Monday, Martin Luther King Jr.

Day. It's also Inauguration Day, by the way, so pretty big day coming up here Monday. It'll be a market holiday.

I believe most lenders and a lot of businesses will be closed. But we will have this podcast hopefully coming out on Tuesday. So really good episode again for you all today as always.

We'll talk with Ben here in a moment and we'll talk about what's going on in the market. The year has started off wild. There's just a lot going on and and more to come for sure when the new administration is inaugurated next week.

Also very exciting news this week, which Kevin will be joining us later. Kevin Foley is going to be talking to us about a groundbreaking launch that happened earlier this week.

So you may have read over the past six months or so and then again recently in November that a we will be launching a mortgage rate futures contract along with the CME Chicago Mercantile Exchange. And that happened on Monday, that happened on the 13th of January. So super excited about that.

We'll give you all some education on what that means and what some of the use cases are for such a futures contract and just get get kind of down into some of those details here with Kevin in a little bit. Also, just earlier today, I believe President Trump announced that he will be nominating Bill Pulte for FHFA director.

We'll talk a little bit more about that in Ben's segment. But you likely know that name. He is the grandson of the founder of Pulte Homes.

The Pulte family has done some great things for homeownership over many, many years and for the city of Detroit especially. They're Detroit folks.

So some exciting stuff going on there and that may have some ramifications for for some of the things We've talked about in terms of, of regulation of the GSEs, potentially for just home ownership and home building in general. So looking forward to, to talking through that and seeing how that pans out in the real world.

And then in terms of data, you've likely been watching rates, you know, past few days we've had some relief which has been nice. We, the OBMMI has dipped below 7%. So that was a welcome, a welcome event, but really just seeing some.

I was just talking to a client earlier today who described the, the market movement recently as violent. You know, not just volatile but somewhat violent. The market just doesn't seem to have a, a clear trend or, or clear path that it's been taking.

So anytime there's any kind of data that contradicts, you know, recent data or recent market movement, you're going to get a whipsaw the other way. We're seeing that right now, but volume's been pretty steady.

We're seeing volume pretty Even right around 80% of the pre pandemic index that we look at to kind of get a feel for, for where we are. So seeing about, you know, 80% of what you might call normal pre pandemic.

So pretty healthy considering I think pre pandemic was certainly not a low volume environment. Also, as you know, the optimal blue summit is coming up here in February, February 3rd through the 5th.

If you've not registered yet, you have a couple more weeks to do that. But definitely getting down to the to go time here. So definitely jump online at summit.optimalblue.com to register.

All right, let's, let's check in with Ben, see what else is going on in the economy and with the market. Okay, checking in here with Ben. Ben, what is, what should we be paying attention to as originators, as capital markets folks, as business owners?

What's going on in the market and what should we be watching out for next week?

Yeah, yeah, some good news this week and even kind of hot off the press here last night, early this morning, as you mentioned, Bill Pulte named as the FHFA director nominee by, by President Trump. Definitely an intriguing pick. I, I'm not sure we had really seen it. Like a short list of names for FHFA director.

Maybe, maybe deep within the housing nerd community there were, there were some lists, but not one of the A list cabinet selections that, that gets a ton of focus but certainly an intriguing pick. Well known housing industry figure definitely could be a good person to help increase housing supply. Pulte.

The Pulte name is obviously well known in the home building community. Bill Pulte, the grandson of William P. Who is the founder of Pulte and then he has a lot of experience just with philanthropy and housing in Detroit.

What it could mean for Fannie and Freddie remains pretty unclear at this point.

I'm sure we'll get some more insight into that in the coming weeks and months and Treasury Secretary Besant will probably have a lot of input on that as well, if not even more so. Definitely a lot of conversations to occur there and to get kind of what their ideas might be on some of that.

So yeah, that's just going to be something to pay attention to. But for now it seems like he should have no problem getting confirmation there and we'll just have to see how it all plays out.

But certainly seems like it could be a good pick for housing going forward.

Yeah, super interesting pick. Obviously housing supply is a huge concern still. Right.

And we didn't know exactly what emphasis or what priority the new administration was going to put on that. But hiring a magnate of the house, you know, home building community makes a ton of sense.

There's certainly going to be some pro, you know, supply initiatives, hopefully that that come from that. We're all speculating at this point, but it may be that the FHFA then maybe won't have a high priority on things like re privatizing the, the GSEs.

So very interested to see how that plays out.

Right. Yeah, it'll, it'll be certainly be an interesting thing to watch.

But yeah, outside of that, this week we've had a good slew of data, some, some important inflation data that's been largely very helpful to bonds. Core CPI came in missing expectations just a little bit and that was enough for the bond market to really rally.

I think the bond market was really concerned about another kind of as expected or even a little bit hot inflation report. So we got a little bit of good news there, perhaps silenced some of the rate hike talk.

There wasn't a ton of talk of rate hikes and I don't think anything was officially being priced in.

But certainly some conversations starting to lend towards if this inflation data and the strong employment economy that we're seeing or at least what the kind of a lot of the official numbers are saying, will the Fed have to hike rates? So at least that's been squashed for now. Within this report, some of the details, the headline CPI was up 0.4% month over month, 3.2% year over year.

Nothing too great there. It's really just the core number. The core came in at 0.2% month over month, 3.2% year over year.

So that 0.2% month over monthS, definitely, you know, a full tenth below expectations. Whenever you see headline like that and then core lower, you kind of red flags go up. Okay. It's energy prices, it's food as well.

Those were kind of the things that were driving that headline higher. But we kind of know our volatile and tend to fade out over time. And shelter coming in kind of. Right, as expected.

But had the smallest year over year gain since January 22nd. So all good news on the CPI front for now at least. We'll have to see how February's numbers come out.

Yeah, it's wild though. It barely missed. And there could be some rounding in there too. Right. Like what comes after the two in point two.

Right.

And we just seem to be getting more comfortable with a number closer to 3% and thinking that the Fed's going to be comfortable with that too. And maybe they are. Right. We had cuts this year even though we, we were grinding along at 2 and a half, 3% and now we're even closer to that.

I mean, inflation, if you just look at the graph, it's up a little bit, but we're, we're thinking that that's good news and apparently that's kind of universal if you follow the money, because we had some violent moves, some violent positive moves in the, in the yield markets this week.

Yeah, really in the grand scheme of things, a pretty slight, slight miss, as you said. And it kind of just highlights how much tension I think was built up in the bond and the bond market, mortgage market.

Just people worrying about a hot print and clearly some of that may be already priced in ahead of time.

You know, traders are probably kind of getting tired of getting caught off sides by jobs reports and inflation reports and where we had seen quite a few sell offs over the last few months. So perhaps more a signal of positioning going into it rather than a massive change in expectations for inflation.

Right, right. They were betting if there was going to be a miss, it was probably going to be on the high side and went the other way. Right.

So that they could unwound those, those hedge trades, if you will.

Exactly, yeah. And that wasn't the only metric where we kind of had some good inflation news. PPI also missed a little bit different there. We missed on the headline.

The core was basically as expected, so kind of the opposite of cpi. Ppi not quite as important. That's producer Inflation, some of that does feed into the Fed's PCE measure that they like to look at.

So some people do dig deep into that. But we also had retail sales missed slightly on the headline.

Again, no, nothing pointing to like an imminent recession or the, the US consumer weakening too much. All still relatively strong. Just a slight miss on the headline.

And again if you kind of dig into some of the more volatile categories there, some of it was actually hotter than expected. So it really just kind of depends how you want to measure it.

But I think the big takeaway is the US consumer still very strong, perhaps some slight cooling in there. And I think markets, and especially like the stock market too, we've seen has responded greatly to these reports, not just the bond market.

So definitely some easing of concerns on kind of all fronts.

Yeah, the invincible retail consumer. We've been following that story since the, the pandemic and it just hasn't seemed to slow down.

Even though household debt has skyrocketed to levels we've never seen before, it's still kind of mind boggling.

You know, there was the whole doom spending that went on for a couple of years which was really, some of it was coming out of lockdown and folks wanting to travel and, and generally spending money because savings rates were up. But now we're back to a point where we're all pretty heavily in debt kind of on average.

So it is pretty amazing that we're still seeing those numbers.

But it would, I would think it would mean a lot to see those numbers start to falter, which it seems like we're maybe getting close to that because we had been missing to the upside regularly and now we're starting to see where we're coming in kind of on the screws or losing a little bit of ground on that, that print.

Right.

And some of this too I think could be, you know, maybe some of the weakness we are seeing in the labor market probably early in the fall could be, could have filtered through into numbers like this. And that's probably the thing to watch is, you know, how does, how do jobs look?

Because people will spend I think if they have a job and their income remains stable and strong and even if it's not growing at the clip they like, as long as you keep your job, you can probably continue to spend. And you know, even like you said, Jim, you could still rack up some debt. You just got to, to keep the music going.

You just need that income to keep coming in.

And so it seems like that's why I think a lot of folks pay attention to the labor market as it's usually we get the non farm payrolls that are a good leading indicator. And if those fall apart, then you kind of can see retail sales fall apart.

You can see that there are a lot of other impacts throughout the system and then even, you know, inflation theoretically should come down if people aren't spending money. So it kind of all filters through.

Right. It's just still no, no sign of that jobs number faltering, right?

Exactly. We were starting to get a few signs and then kind of, yeah, got whipsawed and we're back, flew it out again. Really strong jobs numbers.

So it'll continue to be a talking point and we'll see how it plays out from here. But yeah, strong for now.

Important to note, Waller is generally pretty dovish, so not surprising comments necessarily. But yeah, we are entering a Fed blackout period starting this weekend.

So no Fed commentary until the fed meeting on January 29th where I think they'll hold rates steady and it'll just be looking at Powell's comments on anything going forward as well as just any official changes to the FOMC statement.

So yeah, that's kind of, kind of where we're at still wait and see mode, but perhaps in a little bit more optimistic wait and see mode than we were last week.

Right. Yeah. It's crazy that the Fed meeting's already coming up here and some dovish tones from some of the members I think makes sense.

You know, we have to have to remind ourselves that anything the Fed does has a huge lag behind it, any moves that they make. Right. So we don't need to see negative job prints to change the way the Fed addresses policy.

They're looking at a lot of different numbers and some of, you know, they may be looking at things like retail sales and the amount of debt that's out there as they're thinking about how trying to look nine months ahead to forecast where rates would be and where, where output would be.

Right. I think by the time you're seeing a negative jobs Print. I think every Fed member would agree it's way too late.

Too late.

So they're trying to parse it out. You know, they want to catch it before it drops too much.

Because like you said, monetary policy operates with a, a lag, sometimes a very substantial lag. So it's possible. Yeah. We still haven't even seen the full ramifications of, of the rate hikes they've done.

You know, we talk about the lock in effect in, in mortgages where people aren't, you know, that's something that, that's probably even extended the effect of, of Fed rate hikes. So some of this plays out over years, not even months. So definitely something to keep an eye on.

Good call. All right, great update, Ben. Thank you very much.

You bet.

All right, welcome. Kevin, good to see you. Really excited to talk about this today. I mentioned it earlier on in the podcast, but let's get right into it.

So this Most recent Monday, January 13, the CME launched our mortgage rate futures out into the world. We've been, we've been working on that for several years.

And why don't you just give us a little bit of background, Kevin, tell us a little bit about what, what we're talking about here. What's, what's happened so far.

Yeah, super excited about this update. So worked pretty closely with the teams who are responsible for, for this launch.

And as of this Monday we now have the Optimal Blue Mortgage Market Index mortgage rate future trading on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange.

So I can start with a little bit of background on, you know, what it is and we can jump into some of the really exciting stuff that I think possibilities that we have with the mortgage rate future. So the, the mortgage rate future, it's based on the OBMMI or Optimal Blue Mortgage Market Index. I know we've talked about it a lot on this podcast.

And that's the average locked interest rate on a given day with an optimal blue.

This is actually now the first ever futures contract that has exposure to that interest rate that borrowers are locking, which is something that we call the primary mortgage rate.

This is different from the secondary mortgage market rate, where that's going to be more in line with TBAs, which customers or lenders are going to be hedging. I can talk a little bit about the difference between the primary and secondary market rate.

So the primary market rate is the rate that borrowers are available to lock on and the secondary rate is the rate at which loans are sold on the secondary market. And those differ in fundamental ways. They're different components that are baked into each of those.

So for instance, the primary mortgage market rate is going to incorporate lenders margin.

It's going to incorporate things like loan level price adjustments, G fee if you're selling to the agencies as well as servicing values, whereas the secondary rate does not. Over time those can change and they don't always change in the same way. They're not going to be perfectly aligned with each other.

One of the reasons why we're, we're really excited about this is because you know, really what, what lenders are getting after when they're, they're hedging with TBAs is trying to hedge that primary mortgage market rate. But it's naturally an imperfect hedge.

Now this doesn't mean that you know, all of a sudden overnight we're going to have this brand new instrument that everyone's going to switch over to, you know, stop trading TVAs. It's incredibly liquid market, it's done really well over a long period of time supporting a lender's profitability.

But you know, we are excited that there's now kind of a new tool in lenders, in you know, lenders toolboxes to be able to provide support with hedging. A lot of really cool stuff. You know, with that so far, you know, everything's looking really good. We're seeing some, some good volume on the cme.

We know that that's going to grow over time. Just really excited about where things are going.

That's awesome. Yeah. I think the primary rate has always been a bit elusive in terms of hedging. Right.

And we have a lot of fine tuning mechanisms in our systems and other hedge providers do the same to try to capture that. And we've actually talked a little bit on the last couple podcasts about the difference between primary rate and secondary rate.

I think last week we likened it to the PPI inflation number and the cpi. Right. One is the cost to the producer, which is like a secondary rate.

What does it cost a mortgage lender to lend and to get that capital from wherever it comes from, from the securitization of loans. And then the primary rate is what the actual consumer pays the borrower that buys the house.

And there's always a they move fairly well correlated but there's always going to be differences when margins change, when LPAs change, when supply and demand moves. And we call that a spread.

Right.

There's always going to be a spread between these certain types of instruments.

And, and yeah, this is, this is the, the newest one that is out there and that because roughly, you know, 40 plus percent of loans go through optimal blue.

It's a very good, I would argue a perfect sample size to use for an instrument like this to, to know exactly what types of rates borrowers are actually getting and locking in day to day and even intraday. Right. I think at this point we have an intraday valuation of this, of this metric.

Yeah, that's sort of the second big announcement from this week is that we now have intraday OBMMI values that are being published on the hour and this sort of supplements. Folks are interested in trading the OBMMI future as well as just another way for folks to stay on top of how rates are trending intraday.

But really excited to be able to publish that. Will be working through distribution channels for that. We have an API that's already available if folks are interested in getting access to that.

And we'll be working through other distribution channels as well. So both of those things sort of complement each other.

The mortgage rate feature as well as the intraday OBMMI now being published so that lenders can really take advantage of both.

That's great. So let's talk through a few of the use cases. Possible use cases.

I think some will materialize over time but obviously you know, hedging anything related to mortgages is where this universe starts to open up.

You know, the liquidity in the historically has tended to be in the space of Treasuries and mbs, but those are actual securities or futures traded against those.

But now that we're talking primary rate, I would think you know, things like MSR or if you have a portfolio of msr, you likely have a relatively complicated strategy that hedges that. But this could be a component of that along with some of the treasury futures and other things that you're using, including TBAs.

What else have you seen or what else have people been talking about?

Yeah.

So I will give a shout out to our head of corporate strategy Mike Vogue, who published a white paper that's been shared around LinkedIn just talking through some of some of these use cases. So obviously hedging mortgage rate pipelines, there's the opportunity there in the future.

As this develops, we're seeing increasing volume over time that that becomes a component of lenders strategy in their rate pipeline. Hedging opportunities available in that area sooner could be hedging long term locks.

Obviously if you're hedging with MBS and you're rolling and you're rolling and you're rolling, you're going to continue to eat up costs for those 180 day locks or potentially longer than that. And so this could prove to be a more cost effective way to handle your long term lock hedging.

Beyond that portfolio loans which maybe aren't directly not cost effective to hedge with TBAs, you could as well deploy the strategy of hedging with the mortgage rate feature. So some opportunities there just in terms of hedging mortgage rate pipelines, but as you mentioned Jim, also potentially hedging your MSR portfolio.

So the lay of the land there, for those who have kind of gone down this path before, there aren't very cost effective ways out there today to hedge your MSR portfolio.

It's typically going to involve more complicated analyses and potentially more expensive instruments to be able to accomplish what you're looking to accomplish.

And you know, with the introduction of mortgage rate future, again, just sort of another tool in lenders toolboxes to consider as they're refining their hedging strategy for their MSR portfolio.

Sure.

So for any kind of application, right, we're talking it's based on the primary rate, that's big plus relatively cost effective for longer term hedging strategies. But it's going to be a little less, the fidelity is going to be less than a more complex strategy. Right.

I would, I would think about it as, especially if you were looking to hedge like a mortgage pipeline, an origination pipeline, right.

Loans that are going to fund in the next 45 to 90 days, you're looking to hedge those to a very granular level where using a single instrument isn't going to work very well. You're going to have inefficiencies there. Right. Just the same as like. Right.

If the OBMMI is right around seven right now, but you have loans in your pipeline at five and three quarters, you've got some loans at seven and a half. Those type of interest rates are going to move differently in market events. Right. So you're going to have some inefficiencies in how that works.

You're going to, you're not going to want to hedge that with UMBS six and a half. Nor would you want to use a single treasury future or a single OBMMI future. But it can be a component, right.

In any of these use cases it's going to be a component of that where over time, especially long periods of time, you don't need the fidelity to be as granular. If it's a portfolio of loans, if it's longer term locks, where you've got some extra margin built in.

You can justify the loss of Fidelity in the huge pickup in the lower cost of these kind of hedges.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's important also to point out too today what we've launched this week is Mortgage Rate Future for conforming 30 year fixed.

And so we're looking at other potential opportunities down the road to expand that offering. But today we're really focused on the conforming 30 year fixed product.

But I think you bring up some really good points and that's kind of the point that we're trying to make here, is that we certainly see a lot of opportunity in this space. We're really excited about it, but we don't necessarily see it as sort of a cure all for anything that frustrates us as hedgers.

Really see this as sort of supplementing a lot of the tools that you might already be using and just kind of being another tool in your toolbox.

Absolutely.

The last thing I will mention though is something that we are really, really excited to get associated with the Mortgage Rate future is our Iosco compliance certification.

So we've worked with the folks at the CME to better understand what is Iosco compliance, what it means and what value does it bring to be able to publish information that is up to Iosco standards.

So Iosco, if you're not familiar with them, they're a group who regulates futures and other security markets worldwide and they really set the gold standard for data accuracy integrity compliance processes around how you publish this information. We've put together a very thorough compliance guide that sort of outlines here's how we handle publishing the Mortgage Rate future.

Here's all these different scenarios of different things that could happen and here's the way that we're going to handle that really all about, you know, again, data integrity transparency.

If there was ever something that, you know, doesn't happen like it's supposed to, that all of those situations are accounted for and it's really, at the end of the day something that you can have trust in, have, you know, have faith in and have full confidence in, you know, the values that are, that are out there being published and being, you know, traded actively.

Agreed.

We've certainly, you know, we've already been through a couple of training sessions on the desk just understanding what our responsibilities are in terms of keeping, you know, a distance from the folks within our organization who develop this product and who maintain it. And also, you know, our responsibility to our clients in terms of how we, we represent this as just another tool that's out there. Right. There's no.

Yeah and punchline. Jim and I can't talk anymore outside of this podcast. That's really what the Iosco compliant means.

Keep that wall up. Yeah. All right. So yeah, how I believe this, these things are priced fairly simply. It's pretty simple to understand.

You know, you would go to a broker, so you wouldn't work with your typical TBA broker dealer with this, you'd go to a futures broker. And the price of the security each day or each hour is priced as its par minus the rate, basically, to make it simple.

So if the rate 7% today, the price for the future is 93, 100 minus 7. It's as easy as that. Right. So if rates go continue to go up, the price of that future goes down and vice versa.

If rates go down, you start to get closer to 100. So you can work on the long or the short side of these futures the same as you could for any kind of TBA or any kind of stock really.

You can buy it or you can sell it and you don't. And you don't have to own it to sell it. Right.

You can sell it first and buy it later, or buy it now and sell it later, depending on what type of asset you're trying to hedge, whether it's a loan that's yet to fund or it's an MSR or a portfolio loan or anything in between. You're going to put together a strategy that involves either buying or selling and then eventually settling or closing out of that position later on.

Yeah, I think that's all great context. We worked with the CME to make this approachable, not really intimidating to be able to sort of get your feet wet and able to understand it.

But you know, overall, great way in our minds.

All the, the folks on the, the data side that helped, you know, put this together, bring this, you know, ultimately to launch, you know, really proud of the team and just really great way to kick off the new year.

Yes. Yeah, huge innovation.

That's, that's, that's been worked on for many months and, and exciting news that it's out there now and we're starting to see it traded and just yeah, big thanks to everybody who spent a ton of time on it and, and the work isn't done. It's, it continues to be, to be maintained and and kept accurate. Thanks a lot, Kevin. Really good color. Appreciate that.

Appreciate the education and yeah, exciting days for sure.

Thanks, Jim.

Okay, let's wrap this thing up. Thank you, Kevin. Thank you, Ben. Great information today as always. Thank you everyone for listening. Make sure you register for our summit.

We'll actually have a little bit of a preview of some of the discussions we will have at the summit on our next podcast, which will come out on January 27th. All right, that's it for today.

Join us next week for another episode of Optimal Insights, where we'll continue to provide you with the latest market analysis and insights to help you stay ahead. Don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn for more updates and to access our latest video episodes. You can also find us on all major podcast platforms.

Thanks again for tuning in to Optimal Insights.