Personal struggles are often the best opportunities for personal growth, but only if we choose to put in the work.

Matthew Efford is a firefighter, business owner, real estate agent, and father who has found immense personal growth through struggle, and he shares openly about his journey on this episode.

From persistent bullying as a child and suicidal ideation to an ADHD diagnosis as an adult and ongoing counselling, Matthew has committed himself to growing in self-understanding and maturity as he looks for ways to help others do the same.

We talk about how he was bullied as a child and why he became suicidal at one point, how he navigated an ADHD diagnosis as an adult, what he does to process the often traumatic experiences that he has as a firefighter, the challenges he’s experienced in business and yes, how he attended coffee school in Portland but now relies on Keurig for his caffeine fix.

This one’s about the personal discovery that often comes through personal struggles and I hope it inspires you on your own journey towards self-understanding and personal growth.

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Instagram.com/mattefford

Instagram.com/mattheweffordrealestate

Instagram.com/printnl

I was bullied to Max at school, influenced by my parents splitting up, my grandfather dying on Christmas morning. All that happened the same year, and I became suicidal at that point.

You put on whatever mask you need to fit in when it comes time to deal with adult life. You're almost a little bit confused in your head of who you are and how you're supposed to deal with these things.

I went from trying to have someone else proud of me to me being proud of me. And for the first time in a long time, I've been really excited about growing every day and seeing what the future hold.

You are listening to the Ocari Podcast, a show about men and masculinities, the challenges that modern men face, and how to chart a better way forward. I'm your host, Matt Howlett, mental health coach and founder of the Ocari.

In this episode, I'm talking with firefighter, father, business owner, and Portland Coffee School graduate Matthew Effort.

We talk about how he was bullied as a child and why he became suicidal at one point, how he navigated an ADHD diagnosis as an adult, what he does to process the often traumatic experiences that he has as a firefighter, the challenges he's experienced in business, and yes, how he attended coffee school in Portland, but now relies on Keurig for his caffeine fix.

This one's about the personal discovery that often comes through personal struggles, and I hope it inspires you on your own journey towards self understanding and personal growth. Well, man, thanks for. Thanks for jumping on with me. I appreciate your time.

Oh, no sweat, brother.

Happy to do it. Yeah.

I mean, I think the biggest thing that I appreciate is just the willingness that guys have in doing this to answer the questions that I might fire off and be a little bit personal because, you know, I mean, like, that. That's what's interesting, right? Personal stories like where, where have you come from? What have you been through?

How'd you get to this point that you're at and where are you going now? You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Yeah. So let's dive right in. Who's Matt Effort? Where have you come from? What do you ask?

I came from around. Around the bay.

Yeah.

I grew up in Clark's beach. I spent 15 years out there, and I moved in the city when I was 15 and moved in with my dad after my parents split up.

And physically, that's where I came from. Clark's Beach, Newfoundland. Yeah, Clark's Beach, Newfoundland.

Any takeout?

Every day, dude.

Nah, there's no way. If you had any Takeout every day. You wouldn't be here right now.

I had to get my cholesterol checked recently just to make sure that I didn't have any issues because of that. So.

Yeah, I moved out of there after my parents split up and after some things went down at home and kind of started a new life in the city when I was 15 and, you know, tried to recreate myself the best way I could and. And yeah, and it's been nothing but. But a learning experience ever, ever since.

Well, yeah, as life is. So you came in. You finished high school in town?

Yeah, I did, yeah. Finished high school. I started high school Mount Pearl Senior High and I graduated out of PwC.

Oh, no way. Mount Pro Senior High. That's right across the street from where I basically grew up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was at your house.

At that house.

I was at that house.

Yeah. No way. I don't even remember that. When was that?

No.

Man, it must have been back.

When like we were like the Matt Eddy days.

Like, I love that we refer to a time period as the Matt Eddy days.

Yeah.

That's great. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, I remember you. You had your bench press there and you did a lot of. Yeah.

So that means you made it down to the basement to the dungeon.

Yeah, yeah. I was lucky enough to make it down enough.

Yeah. Scatter few make it down there. I wonder when that was. Yeah. Because I.

Yeah, I guess.

Yeah. Cool. So that. That, that changed your life.

But that was. That was the TSN turning point there. Right there. Yeah.

So where are we catching you now? Besides the. The cafe that you, you know, we've got you in. You're. You're a firefighter. You were in.

You started real estate business just recently, right?

Yeah. So I started the real estate at the beginning of the summer and it's definitely a learning curve for me. I.

I started real estate based on me wanting to grow myself and expand. So I said, why not like, specifically.

For like a business venture? Because you hadn't really done anything like that before or is it just something different?

Yeah, well, I. I do have my own business on the outside of that. I do own a print brokerage.

Okay.

Printing brokerage called Print Nl. I've been doing that for a couple years and yeah.

Like since then, through self trying to do something like self discovery and finding out where I have potential to grow In. I decided to give myself a shot at real estate to see what, you know, see how I would do with that stuff.

Right. So that's got to be. I mean, different by way of challenge, you're still dealing with the public, but it's got to be.

What are the challenges like there? Compared to the printing business, it's a different.

A different kettle of fish altogether, really. Like, with the printing business, you have a service to sell more that's more tangible, something, you know, every business needs.

With real estate, you kind of got to deal with what you got, you know, so, like, there's not a whole lot of houses on the market right now. So if you have a buyer with you, you don't have a product to sell them because there's nothing out there.

Right.

So then you got to switch to a different side of it. You got to go and try and find somebody who wants to sell a house.

Right. Is that a bit of a saturated market right now? Like, I don't know what it's like here in the province. I've only been back here for about two years.

It seems like there's a lot of real estate agents, and maybe they're not all active. I don't know.

I think a lot of real estate agents kind of got on the go when things were. When. When there were a lot of houses and a lot of houses selling for a really high price.

Okay.

And then all the houses sold. There's a bunch of agents out there, and with no houses to sell.

Right.

So that's basically where we're at now. Like, it's. It's. It's hard to find somebody who's willing to sell with interest rates as they are.

Yeah. And correct me if I'm wrong, but in. In a lot of ways with real estate, you're. You're not just selling the house, but you're selling yourself.

Yeah.

Right. There's. There's a lot of that in that job because you are presenting yourself as someone that, you know, the.

The seller or the buyer would want to work with.

Yeah.

It's like, you know, based on your personality, your interpersonal skills, communication skills. What does that mean? Like. Cause that's definitely different from people coming to you saying, hey, I have this printing need.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm confident in the printing industry. I grew up in the printing industry, so I know. I know what I have to offer as a. As a seller, as a.

And I know what. I know the product really well. I know what you want and what you're willing to pay for it.

In the real estate industry, it's been a lot of self discovery first, because how can you sell yourself when you don't really know your strengths and weaknesses in that industry? Okay, so like if I would be doing you an injustice if I told you a lie about myself and, and I didn't follow through with it. Right?

Sure.

So I wouldn't. Me as me being a, like a truthful person and honorable person, I'd like to.

I sell you on my, my known strengths, but those strengths might not work well for the real estate industry. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, I get that. I think that that is a great strength though, to be that type of person, to be the type of person who values honesty. You know what I mean?

Because I would imagine that not everybody, I would say just about everybody, might value honesty, but sometimes, you know, you might feel the pressure at least to, to sugarcoat a situation, to maybe stay away from issues in a home, you know what I mean? And try to highlight the benefits. Yeah.

And as a salesperson yourself, like, I never liked salespeople who put on a front or put. Who are fake.

Right.

Who I knew, like, I know salespeople from a personal level. Certain salespeople as a person, as a, on a personal level and as a salesperson and are totally two different people.

Okay.

They're not authentic, they're not the same person. They're fake. And as a consumer, personally, I wouldn't go for that. Right. I would just. No, I don't care.

I don't care how many connections they have or who, how many houses they sell in the past. Like, I just wouldn't go for that.

Yeah.

And so I would sell myself as someone who's authentic and integral and honest. And in exchange I would probably have consumers that would. Who are the same type of people.

I get that. I think I've known people who also seem to change slightly in different contexts because I'm kind of like that.

I'm a bit of an ambivert and my wife points this out often because I don't think I've ever really met people that, at least on a personality test level that would be more introverted than me. But she is, and she points out often that I'm a bit more of an ambivert, but I become seemingly an extrovert in some situations. Right.

So hopefully that doesn't come across as fake because I love people. I love meeting new people, I love good conversation. But I don't love small talk per se.

I can do it for a bit to get to know someone, to bring down that first bit of barrier, whatever that people have up when you're getting to know somebody. But I want to get into the deeper conversations. I want to get to know somebody. And yeah, I'm similar. I get that.

Yep. I understand.

Well, tell me more about what that process has been like then for you personally, because obviously you're starting something new. Everybody's gonna have, say, a bit of a knowledge gap, you know what I mean?

But if I was buying a house from you, I would much more prefer a person like yourself. Who is going to tell me, well, you know, I don't know that. I don't know have the answer to that question, but I'll go and find out.

And I know that I can trust you. I know that you're being real with me. So what does that process of personal discovery been like by trans getting yourself into this position?

This is totally new for you.

Yes. It's been a bit of an eye opener in a way.

Learning something from scratch has been something that I haven't done in a long time since school, and especially at this stage in my life where I've matured in certain ways and discovered different things about myself. Struggling with, I would say struggling with getting through the diagnosis of adhd.

Okay, I didn't know that.

Yeah. So that's something I, myself, I, I, I always wondered, especially the last few years when ADHD has been more talked about widely.

Yeah.

And especially as an adult, like adult adhd. And so I've, I've wondered and I've, I follow a lot of different influencers on Instagram and stuff and I just see what they talk about.

Yeah.

And so I recently, as early as a month ago, I did a very strenuous test at the, at one of the hospitals here and, and to discover that, yeah, I very well do have the adhd.

Wow. What was that like for you?

I mean, for some people now, I speak to this as someone who runs ads on meta platforms for a client who is an ADHD coach, and I'll shout her out quickly. Just even for yourself and for other people. Kristen Carter. I have adhd. She has a podcast. She's fantastic, super authentic.

You definitely should check her out. But I know for her and her story and for other people that she works with, getting that diagnosis is almost a bit of a relief. It can be clarifying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

So you. So the process of discovering. So the testing was mentally draining. It was like eight hour day, two or three Eight hour days.

Wow.

And it was series of different tests that you would think are like, like from children's building blocks to math equations to remembering stories and all these things. And then going back the next day for your eight hours and trying to remember the things you did the day before, all that stuff.

And then they run it through their system, all the results through their system, call you back for an hour appointment and lay it all out. And when I seen the sheet of paper and she laid out everything that.

Wrote off read out. Yeah, yeah.

I said, holy cow. Like, this is, this is my whole life.

Makes sense to you. Wow.

Yeah. Everything, like everything was so, like compulsiveness and, or impulsiveness, I mean, I should say.

And inability to like, focus on things for a long period of time.

And like, I mean, you could look at, you could look at my garage and know that I have adhd because there's a lot of started projects that nothing finished. Like, it's just.

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. And like my wife would say, like, what'd you do today? Oh, I had a great, productive day.

You know, I cleaned the whole house and, and I cleaned all the bathrooms and, and all this stuff. And she would come down to places like it was hit by a hurricane. Like, it was just like, right.

You think, you think you're doing one thing and then like from the outside looking in, like it's totally different. And it's because of the adhd.

Right, right. Because part of that you can get hyper focused on something. Correct?

Yeah. So I've done that multiple times, specifically in businesses.

Okay.

Yeah. Like, I start, I wanted to start a label printing business and I got hyper focused. I was so dialed in for months.

I was just so dialed in and to a point where my decisions became impulsive.

Okay.

So like I wanted to spend that $30,000 on a printing machine without even knowing if I'll have the business to use it.

Like, it was like all these things, like taking like that amount of money out of our, on a part, putting on our credit card and all that stuff without even doing the homework or anything like that, only to take a step back after my wife kind of like sat me down and was like, maybe we should think about this before we spend the money. I had the check written up and everything.

And, and then once I finally kind of like let my brain rest a little bit, I was like, oh, okay, I'm glad I didn't spend that money because I would have lost it all and.

Right.

Would have been stressed for the next three or Four years.

Like, I find that type of thing fascinating. The like, personal testing, just self discovery. Right. I would love to hear a little bit more about what that process been.

Has been like, and whether it's specifically the ADHD process or not, just you personal discovery. What has that process been like? Because I, for one, I don't think that's a topic that men talk openly about often.

Like, we don't have conversations like you and I are having right now. Definitely not in groups of men where it's like, you know, oh man, I've been going through this thing.

Like, you know, someone asks you, how are you doing? It's like usually a quick response.

You don't usually get into conversations about, well, man, I've been going through this and this is what I've been learning about myself.

Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Right?

Yeah. How are you? Best client. Right. Okay, let's move on. Talk about sports.

Yeah, yeah.

Dive in, man. Tell me. Yeah.

My personal story has been. Or my personal story of self discovery has been. Has been wild.

I started like when I was, when I was 12 years old, man, I was bullied to the max at school. And at that age, you go on through a lot of your brain is trying to develop opinions of yourself, start to develop.

Your opinions of the world start to develop. You're trying to start a foundation. That's kind of where your foundation usually starts.

For me, it was influenced by bullying and influenced by my parents splitting up, my grandfather dying on Christmas morning.

Okay.

All that happened the same year and I became suicidal at that point. Great.

Six.

Yeah. Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah, I was, I had, I had a knife in. Underneath my mattress for the time when I thought I was going to slit my wrists, basically.

Wow.

So, yeah. And the years following that, it was, it was tough. Like for the first three years, especially because my father wasn't home. He was, he moved into St.

John's and I was living with mom and, and that, that's a, it's a stage in life where every teenager is kind of struggling to discover who they are anyway.

Sure.

And they're just, they're just trying to fit in. They're just trying to make sure that everybody likes them.

And for me, I found that hard because the type of person I am, I wanted everybody to like me, but nobody did, really. I felt, I felt like nobody did because of the way I was treated.

Yeah, I can definitely resonate with that. Perception versus reality. I often wondered if I fit in, if I belonged. But, you know, the case was. Was quite different. Than what the reception was.

But yeah, sorry, carry on.

And I couldn't, I couldn't escape the bullying or because I was, I was in school, I was attacked constantly. And then I come home and. And the same people that were in my school would live in my same street.

And every single thing that we did, whether it be playing street hockey or going and playing in the woods and stuff, it was always effort underneath the. Poked underneath the old mattress with trees on top of them and boys jumping on top of the trees, like know, like, stuff like that.

And even, even in my own house. Sometimes they'd end up in my house and I didn't even know because my parents worked in the city till like 6:30.

Okay.

So from the time we got home at 3 till 6:30, it was like just me and my brother, right. Who's four years younger than me. And they would be in my house terrorizing the house, stealing money out of the can that we used for saving coin.

We save coins for our vacations and stuff and steal money out of the game and stuff. And it was just like it constant. And then eventually, eventually we made the decision that me and my brother were moving with my dad in the city.

And at that point I had an opportunity to put on a new face. So I became the class clown. Tried to be popular.

Sure.

Tried to be someone I wasn't so that everybody would like me because nobody knew me at this point. So I was like, well, this is my opportunity, right?

Yeah.

But because of that, I lost. I wasn't able to figure out who I was as a person. And I also didn't realize that I needed to do that. So.

Do what? Figure out who you were.

Figure out who I was.

Right. So you're busy wearing like different masks in a way. Is that right?

Yeah, you become, you become.

That's, that's something that you just, you just carry on through your adult life and, and you, you put on whatever mask you need to, to fit in or get along with different people.

And when it comes time to settle down and get married and, and have a career and, and all those sorts of things and deal with adult life and stressors and, and, and mortgages and all that kind of thing, like you aren't able to deal with these things appropriately because you're almost a little bit confused in your head of who you are and how you're supposed to deal with these things. Right?

Yeah, I think that is one of the biggest challenges with boys becoming men.

One of the things that I try to address at least in the writing that I did when I was putting together the website back this last spring is because I call it automatic pilot. I refer to this, I think fairly often, is that we kind of default to our. Just automatic responses.

Like our brain's telling us, like, you know, you got to be safe, you got to be safe. You got to be safe. You got to get what you need. Right.

So whatever it is that you need to do to get what you need to be safe, we learn to do that in different situations. But then we just kind of. We learn these patterns of being and behaving that keep us maybe safe.

Like, you know, like you were doing, trying to become someone that you might not have been in order to be liked, in order to get those needs met. Right.

But we don't really ever take the time to listen to ourselves, to listen to our own thoughts and feelings and sort that out so that in a given situation, we can actually be present, mindful, and respond in a way that we want to respond in a way that we can look back on and be proud of, that we've really expressed ourselves in that moment, rather than just going with the flow. Right. Trust in this automatic pilot, whatever you want to call it.

Yes. Yeah.

And I find that's why we wake up often as men with situations like you've described in our 30s, 40s, whatever it is.

Sometimes it's because of, you know, lost position at work, you know, financial struggles, relationship struggles, whatever it is, and we realize, oh, like, some of these things just weren't my decisions. You know what I mean? It's not really what I would have liked to have done.

Yeah.

Does that make sense to you?

Oh, total sense. And, you know, taking that time to realize that you're. That you need to learn more about yourself is. Is a big thing, you know, and. And that.

That one split decision to say, is this really me, or is this a form of me that I've created over the years, that's not really, you know.

Yeah. We're not taught how to do that. Right. It's not like it's taught in. In high schools or even in the churches that we grew up in. Yeah.

I think in some way that the churches do a disservice to young people because they are teaching you to try and be a certain way rather than helping you to discover who it is that you are. I feel like one of the things that we didn't do when I was in that world was helping students really understand themselves better.

You know what I mean? Instead of just pushing them towards these religious faith based ideals. Sorry, I could rant.

You missed the man. That's a totally different podcast, I think.

Yeah.

So tell me a little bit more then about what that has been like for you recently then because you've obviously been on this journey of self discovery and that is been life giving, I'm sure. And it feels restorative and good and yeah, just talk to me bit more about that.

So I. I really hit the path of self discovery hard in the last few years.

I'm 39 now and a lot of it came through life like it started because of life struggles because I found that I wasn't that the ver. That version of me wasn't able to deal with life struggles anymore. But at the same time I knew that I had it in me to do it.

So I had to really hit hard who I am as a person and what I wanted to be and who the best version of Matt effort is.

Right. So that was the ADHD process.

Yeah, figured that out. And that explained a heck of a lot of things. Why I did certain things over the last 20 years of my life, that ADHD diagnosis. And so a lot of that is.

A lot of this is really, really recent stuff. So. Yeah.

So noticing different patterns that I've made, relationship wise, career wise purchases and all these things that really made life complicated over the years, it was all influenced by adhd. I wouldn't say it's all because of adhd, but it's all influenced for the most part by adhd.

And aside from that, you know, having the drive to push myself to be better in every aspect of life was hard for a long time.

Yeah.

And. But once I started making small steps, it became easier and easier. And that's all I want to do now is just. Is just grow me.

Be the best version of myself every day.

Yeah.

Hit the gym, do whatever you got to do to be the best version of myself. You know, even spiritually like Last Man. I'm probably in the same boat as you.

A lot of us who grew up in that era, Christianity wise, church wise, we're all kind of in the same boat, but jaded in ways and. And got some of us got a sour taste in our mouth from certain things. And.

I get that I have to push back on that one a little bit because I don't think that I'm jaded. I don't think that there's a sour taste. There's definitely parts about it that I know don't fit for me anymore, but I feel like, it's been a process.

There was definitely periods of time where I was mostly, I think, angry with myself for allowing it to go as long as it did and for not being myself in certain, certain situations, not speaking my mind. But I feel like I've, I've been able to take the good from that because there's a lot of good, you know what I mean?

The way that I grew up, what I, what I learned, what I was taught to believe, you know, I was having this conversation with someone just. It was a shared friend of ours last night actually, Colin Hollett on his, on his podcast. Yeah, Tell Me More podcast.

I had a good time and we just talked briefly about, you know, the similarities between the different world religions. And in a very basic way, they're pushing you towards self discovery. They're pushing you towards being a better human, you know what I mean?

And that's, I think, what I've taken from Christianity because I mean, I like Jesus.

I like the way that the man is depicted in the New Testament and you know, how he lived his life, how he responded in situations, how like, you know, the church would call it righteous anger, but how he displayed anger in probably like a very healthy and productive way rather than just like lashing out because he was hurt or because he was sad and you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I, that's kind of the way that I've been looking at it and that's been a few years, but it's, it's been a bit, a bit of a process for sure. There's lots to work through when you grow up in a, a very, bit of a cloistered, you know, social setup, you know what I mean?

Yeah. And we all got different stories too, right? We all have different experiences and stuff.

100%. Yeah.

I've talked to a couple people that grew up in a similar context as me, but their story, like their experience has been quite different, far more traumatic. Oh yeah, yeah. I've heard a couple stories just in the past year, but yeah, talk to me more about the day to day.

You mentioned working out, going to the gym or working out at home. Like, what are the habits? What does this personal discovery look like on the day to day?

For me, it starts with a walk, honestly. I get up in the morning and I go for a walk. It's about 4km long. It's not a huge walk.

I stick my AirPods in and I turn on a couple of my favorite podcasts and I just, I just walk and everything just sinks in and it sets me for my day.

First one is the Ocari.

First one is the Ocari. The second one is the Ackery. Third one is Ed Mylet. And Ed Mylet, ever hear him?

No.

Oh man, you got to listen to him. He's. He's incredible.

What is it about the walk specifically? Is it a nice area that you're in? Is it just the peace and quiet my walks are?

You know, walking down CBS Trail, feeling the leaves, smelling the air, just really, just being really mindful of all the textures and the smells and the sights that you're. It really helps you like zero in, right?

Yeah.

And so while I'm doing that, the I listen to the podcast and everything is sinking in. Like, like I wish I had done that in school and had everything in, in school.

I wish I had on audio and just was blocking because I would learn so much more.

Right.

And whatever it is, like I could listen to a podcast or. And work out like pump like just on the, on the press or chest press or, or anything like that and nothing. I can't focus.

But when I get on a walk, for some reason I'm able to do my walk and listen and learn at the same time and it all just sinks in. It's so I, I made that a habit.

Yeah.

So I do it every day. It has to happen now. Going to the gym has to happen because I feel great.

Always trying to better myself in each area of my life, you know, always trying to grow.

So that includes the gym, that includes reading books, that includes pushing myself to start a business or pushing myself to grow my business or push myself to learn more in the field that, I mean, whether it be firefighting or, or the print, print shop or real estate. You know, doing real estate was, was. Is a learning experience for me as much as it is a business and a financial decision I wanted to make.

So every area of my life I'm pushing to grow more. And so every day it's taking on new challenges.

Right.

And trying to be a better dad, better husband.

Sure.

And yeah. And then the day's over and I'll do it again next day.

You're also a firefighter.

Yeah.

How do you balance the consistency that you want with these habits with that life of being a firefighter? Because that's not like that's a 12 hour shift.

It's 24.

24.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's different. You go in and you're around six. At least six other personalities.

Sure.

And you're faced with any sort of situation or scenario that you're never 120 prepared for. Mentally, physically.

We're trained to be prepared for a lot of different scenarios, but we're not trained to be mentally prepared for a suicide or a child choking on something or, Or a gruesome car accident or even. Or going into a fire and not being able to see a thing until you see an orange glow and you just got to put fire on, put water on the floor.

Like, it's not like if you're not mentally prepared for it. And it's. It's definitely a growing experience every shift because of all that. Like, you're forced to deal with that. And so I always.

I made a decision when I started firefighting to do counseling right off the bat. So my first suicide hanging call I had, I went straight to my psychologist and we did some different techniques to help me deal with that.

And it helped, you know, and so I wanted to protect myself and wanted to learn how to deal with these situations that I was going to have to face. And that's what I did. And I'm still doing and. Because every situation is different. Right?

Yeah, that's. I can't imagine. Uh, my brother is with the rnc.

Yeah.

And I can't remember now when he started. It feels like just recently, but I'm pretty sure he's been at it for a couple years. And he doesn't get into details about stories, but there was.

He just referenced one a while ago that, you know, was his first time seeing this thing. Right. Walking into this context and you could just, you know, again, didn't go into details.

Didn't tell us really anything about it, but I could see on his face and hear it in his voice. You know what I mean? That, that is a very, A wild thing to. To go through, especially if it's going to be consistent.

Yeah. Yeah. And for them, I feel like those types of situations are more consistent. They're going to everything.

Yeah.

You know, so. And I can't. I can't imagine what they see and the paramedics see.

I would run through a house fire every day before, you know, if I didn't have to see some of the things that they see.

Right. Yeah. It's probably a bigger variety, I suppose. How do you, I mean, obviously you have the help of your psychologist you mentioned.

How do you keep that from getting into your day to day at home with the kids, with your partner?

It's not easy to separate one from the two. Yeah, no, it's not easy to come home and be normal or be the man you need to be or be the father you need to be.

But I've somehow, by the grace of God, I've learned how to come home and turn it off. Quiet. The noise in my head.

And a lot of it is, I think might be the practices that I've put in place, like the mindfulness walks and the working out and the readings and stuff. I feel like a lot of that has helped settle my mind. I don't know if even if, Even if ADHD has had.

It has had an influence on that as well, like being able to forget one thing to move on to the next. Okay. So I wonder if that has kind of helped me in a way as well.

Being able to compartmentalize, you think, a bit better.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So leave. Leave. We've in. In my counseling, we. We talked about a way to put things in a mental box and put it on a shelf.

So you imagine yourself in an empty room. There's a shelf.

Yep.

There's one box. That one feeling that you have, or that one scenario that you went through or the.

Whatever it is that, say, that I went through as a firefighter, say, was a traumatic accident. Take that whole. Take that whole scenario scene, put it in a box, imagine yourself putting the COVID on it. Imagine how the box feels.

Imagine what the room looks like. Take that box, put it on a shelf, and then imagine yourself backing out of the room and leaving it there.

And that like you, you, you take that practice and put it into play in a bunch of. In, in for a lot of your traumatic scenarios or scenes or whatever. And like, it'll help you get through life.

Yeah. And, and to be clear, like, that type of practice, like that is. That is common.

Being able to compartmentalize but not suppress, being aware of what it is that you're feeling, setting aside, because you recognize that it's a strong emotion and in the moment, you can't really allow yourself to go into that. Yeah. Because that, that's the key difference.

And I think the key thing for men especially, because we tend to suppress rather than go back to it later.

And I remember I had a very similar conversation in my late 20s, I think it was, with a psychologist, that same type of practice, same type of habit, same type of tool or technique, whatever you want to call it, of compartmentalizing, we'll call it, but for the purpose of getting through that high stress, high emotion situation so that I could perform, be the way that I want it to be. But then go back to that later. Has that been the process for you?

Yeah.

Yes.

And we.

Journaling or conversations or.

Yeah, yeah. And we've done a lot of awareness in PTSD at work as a firefighter, and it's more of a common thing now to.

For all of us guys to actually talk about what we just all went through together. Because we're all experiencing the same thing.

Yeah.

Like, we're. We're all human. None of us are. None of us are too strong or like, we're. We're all emotional human beings. Yeah. So we're not like.

Like, back in the day used. It used to be like, the little guys in the far hall be like, why you get on. You get over that. Right. Next one. What are you crying for?

You know, like, just like one of those things, like. But now everybody. It's. It's very commonly known now to, you know, okay, we just went through something traumatic together.

Let's sit down together, let's talk about it. Let's hash it out. Be like. Let's actually open up and tell each other how we feel about these things. And it's. And it's. We actually do that now.

And it's. It really works wonders.

Yeah.

You know, you're not offloading on your wife when you come home or not suppressing it and having nightmares at night. You're dealing with it right there and then with other people that are experiencing the same thing you were experiencing.

Yeah. Because if we don't, it'll come out one way or another. Yeah. I read a great book. The guy's name is. I'm hoping I pronounce it correctly.

Every time I say it, I feel like I'm doing it wrong, but. Bessel Van Der Kolk. K O, O, K. Vander Kolk. And good job. What's that? I hope I did a good job. I don't think I've ever heard the name said right.

So it's like. But the book is fantastic. It's called the Body Keeps the Score.

And it's.

It's basically about what you just said, like, the reasons why we do what you just said. Because if you. If you compartmentalize and suppress, you know what I mean?

And never go back, never allow yourself to feel the feelings, it's going to come out one way or another. The Body Keeps the score. It doesn't matter how. How small or how big we might perceive the experience to be.

You know, if we suppress emotion, it will come out one way or another. And I shared this With a past guest. Just recently, I can't remember.

I've done a couple episodes past, like, week, and the conversation for me went directly to headaches and skin issues, because that's what it was always. For me, anytime that I'm overly stressed. Diet comes into it a bit, too, but it's. It's always been headaches and, like, skin problems.

Okay.

Yeah. One way or another. Like, I mean, obviously, when you get older, you know, your. Your body's getting a little bit tired. Your body's ability to.

To deal with stress might be a little bit, you know, lessened with age. And that's why, you know, for some, we have, you know, men passing from heart attacks at, like, you know, late 40s, early 50s, like, way before they.

They should be 100%. Yeah. So you don't know. It's hard to draw, I'd say, direct link from that, but, you know, it plays a role.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Like, personally, for myself, like, stress always. My impulsiveness always came out. So I would be. I'll be an impulsive eater. I would be impulsive, buyer, all those things.

Really, really exasperated when I was really stressed out.

Going back to when I was a firefighter or when I decided to become a firefighter, I should say, you know, thinking back about how I grew up and the things that I went through, one of the reasons why, you know, a lot of kids grow up and they're like, I'm gonna be a firefighter when I grow up. Right? Yeah. I'm gonna be a cop or I'm gonna be whatever. I didn't know what I wanted to be.

One part.

One side of me wanted to do acupuncture. Like, it was just, like, I had no idea what I wanted. Then I thought about, you know, my past, and I was like, what.

What job or what career could I take that would really put all my bullies to shame?

Okay.

Really say, you know, Matt, effort. He's a firefighter. Right. You know, and. And that's. That was my drive to become a firefighter, and I became a firefighter for that reason.

But I learned that I really enjoy helping people.

Okay.

In ways that showing up at ground zero on helping people, that's. That's where I thrive. And I learned that about myself. So I went from trying to have someone else proud of me to me being proud of me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a far Healthier goal.

Yeah, yeah.

And that goes back to what you were saying about mindfulness.

You want to be connected to your experience, you want to be connected to your feelings, your needs, and ensuring that, you know, in high stress situations you are responding in the way that you would want to respond. You know, it's not about making other people think a certain way about you. The main thing is what do we think about ourselves?

Like, often, like men can go into self criticism. We beat ourselves up because we feel like we're not creating the perception that we want in other people. You know what I mean?

But if we can just focus on what we're thinking, what we're feeling, get to know ourselves as you have done and continue to do, that's where like the healthy journey starts. Yeah. I mean, that's how you take care of it. Like that's self care.

Understanding who you are, what you want out of life, how you want to express yourself, not worrying so much about what other people think. It's interesting.

I find it like it's information, what other people think, obviously feedback and you know, that be helpful and, you know, you can't be objective with your own self. But that's.

Yes, it's great. It's a great journey.

And for the first time in a long time, like I've, you know, been really excited about growing every day and seeing what the future holds for, for us and, and you know, I hope that someday I can, I can be there for somebody else and show them, and show them how to do that journey themselves.

Because a lot of people are, are stuck in the same route that I was stuck in and, and don't know how to get out of it and don't realize they're even in it. So I hope hopefully someday I can, I can help some other.

Well, I mean, in some small way you're doing that right now. You know what I mean? I hope that everybody that I talk with as part of this project understands that that's the whole goal here. Right.

These conversations, like, for one, they don't happen often. So it's great to have them and hopefully inspire people, you know, as a, as a baseline.

But there's going to be not just men, just people who listen to this and hear a bit of your story and resonate with the bullying. For sure. I experienced that as a kid.

You know, it will resonate with like the challenges that you've been through, specifically, even like the, you know, the ADHD piece. You know what I mean? Yeah. And find a sense of belonging there. A sense of encouragement, a sense of inspiration, whatever that might be.

Our stories are powerful, you know what I mean? Again, that's something that I flashback to my church days. We always used to talk about the power of a testimony. Right.

That's just the power of your story. That's all it is. Like, you know, remove the religious aspect. And that's what it is.

It's the power of your story, what you've been able to come through and the decisions that you've made to bring you to where you are today.

Yeah. And it's okay to, to be on a path of self discovery and it's okay to always want to learn. It's always okay to grow and accepting that is.

Is very peaceful and, and helps you every day, you know.

Yeah. More than okay. I mean, I think that's the purpose of life, is self discovery and putting yourself out there. I was saying it to Colin, actually.

We talked about this last night. It's understanding yourself, learning about yourself, being able to express yourself.

So that talks about life's work, what it is that you're going to get into as a man. How are you going to give back to the world and then just straight up loving other people? That's what life is all about.

What else is there that would really be, you know, deeply satisfying. What that would matter? You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, whenever I, you know, get to the point where my time on this planet is over, I want to be able to look back and say that that's what I spent my time doing. You know what I mean?

Helping other people, learning more about myself so that I can really enjoy my experience and, you know, express myself, understand my feelings and, you know, why I feel the way that I feel. Go after what I want rather than what I think other people expect of me. Because it.

Yeah.

Did that for. Did that for a period of time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Coming out of that is great.

Thank you for listening. I hope you found some value in this episode.

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