In the booth with me this week is the storytelling, improv-loving, eggs benedict-hating, Mike Ganino. He’s lived 79 lives, and because he’s an efficient storyteller we got to hear about most of them. We talked about everything from his time as a flight attendant (including month-long layovers in Hawaii and dating for drinks), his leading role in a personal injury lawyer commercial, his evolution to public speaking, and his newest role as a stay-at-home dad. He shared a powerful story about coming out and dropped some insightful notes about finding your thru-line in life to recognize your innate talents. By the end, we were those two dudes in a booth crying into our milkshakes… the Diner Talks special! You’re going to love Mike’s stories and little nuggets sprinkled throughout -- you’re not going to want to miss this episode.

About the Guest: 

 Mike Ganino is a storytelling + public speaking expert who hosts The Mike Drop Moment podcast. He’s been named a Top 10 Public Speaking Coach by Yahoo Finance, and California’s Best Speaking and Communication Coach by Corporate Vision Magazine. He is an author, former Executive Producer of TEDxCambridge, and has been named a Top 30 Speaker by Global Guru, Mike’s worked with organizations like Disney, American Century Investments, American Marketing Association, and UCLA. Mikes a new Dad, a coffee snob, and chronically late.

Connect with Mike and learn more:

www.mikeganino.com

www.Instagram.com/mikeganino

About the Host: 

Friends! Here's a somewhat stuffy bio of me:  

I am an author, professional speaker, coach, host, and entrepreneur. My first book, Leading Imperfectly: The value of being authentic for leaders, professionals, and human beings, is available wherever people buy books. I speak internationally to willing and unwilling attendees about authenticity, vulnerability, and leadership. My clients include American Express, General Electric (GE), Accenture, Yale University, The Ohio State University, and many others. As a speaker, I am doing the two things I loves the most: making people think and making people laugh! 

I host my own events multiple times a year. They are 2-day events called Living Imperfectly Live (and sometimes they are 1-day virtual events). They are a space where humans from every walk of life can come together to be part of a community on the pursuit of badassery. The goal is to help attendees start living the life we say we want to live.

Alas, you're here because of an idea I had a number of years ago and didn't think I was good enough to pull it off. I finally acted on it and alas Diner Talks with James was born! As you can see from what I do in my professional life, Diner Talks is alligned with everything I believe in and teach.  If this wasn't dry enough, and you would like to know more info about my speaking, events, or coaching feel free to check out my website: JamesTRobo.com.

Let’s Be Friends on Social Media!

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamestrobo

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jamestrobo

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesrobilotta/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/JamesRobilottaCSP

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/JamesTRobo

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Welcome to diner talks with James. Slide into the booth and let's have conversations we never want to end with friends. We never want to leave over food we probably shouldn't be.

My friends welcome to another episode of diner talks with James. I'm James and I am pumped to be here with you all today. Thanks for hanging out with me in the diner. What do you have today? You want some eggs benedict, we probably do you fancy brick, it's fine. We'll make it for you. But we are excited that you are here my friends in the diner square I squeeze into the booth and hang out with the I got to be in the south recently. I got to go to Waffle House. It brought me back y'all. There's just something about that all star special. Egg scramble was cheese. Even a waffle coated in butter and syrup. Give me that white toast giving them grits I'm telling y'all I just love it. Late Night diner conversations are my jam. And that's why I love spending time with you. My friends stepping in to the booth with me slide into the booth. So I should say but he is standing technically, but is my boy might get a No. He is an incredible man, a man that I have admired from afar for a number of years. We followed each other on Instagram for quite some time we've shot a like or a quick comment back and forth every once in a while definitely has the best hair in the biz, but he's someone who I've admired. He is a brand strategist. He's a storytelling coach. He is a fellow improviser, a professional speaker. Now he is an incredible man. He wrote a great book. He's been featured in all these sorts of publications. He is all over the damn place. He's also been known to run TEDx Cambridge, from time to time casual, the oldest and longest running TEDx in the country, maybe in the world, probably in the world. But either way, I'm super pumped that he is joining us from LA. Great town. Great, man. Let's have a great conversation bringing out my friend right now. Mike, good enough.

Hi. I was so triggered by the way of thinking back you you you mentioned um, you know, eggs benedict and being in the south and I like how this memory I used to work in this very like high end restaurant in North Carolina in Greensboro called Green Valley grill. And I hated working the brunch. I love working at night. I hated brunch because you had to work so freakin hard for brunch. You're like running around, the check averages are low and you go home like totally sweating, totally having run around the restaurant and you made like $40 serving fancy people, eggs benedict and sweet tea. And I just had such a triggered moment when you said that at the top of the show. By the way.

I try to piss my guests off early.

You knew it was like inception. You were like in my brain ready to say what can I do to make this guy have like, very painful flashbacks.

Alright. Gosh, I love it. That's amazing. How long were you were server for?

I mean, a lot. So all through high school, I worked at Pizza Hut. And pizza. By the way. This was like back when Pizza Hut had like the actual hot roofs and you went in and it was like, dark and on Beyonce and we had a buffet and a salad bar. And so I worked as a server all through high school. And the little town I'm from the pizza hut is like the nicest restaurant in town. So it's like where people go to like, celebrate things during prom, we would like set the party room up with like, little fake candles or little fake votives that just like wiggling the when we would set those up and have like prom dinners at Pizza Hut. It was very, very sexy. And then I continued that in college and then after college. And in like 2000 when I was 20 I became a flight attendant, and I stopped officially waiting tables then. But then stay in the restaurant industry for like 14 more years in some capacity.

Yeah. First off, we're 30 seconds into this podcast. I've already heard two stories. So the way to live up to your brand. Second one, where was the small town that you grew up in?

I grew so I I grew up all over the place. But I went to high school in a town called Parker Arizona, which is right on the border of California, Arizona. So like three hours from Vegas, three hours from Phoenix. Three hours from Palm Springs, like out in the middle of nowhere in the desert. But actually, yeah, yeah, like super far and so and right on the Colorado River. So we actually lived on the California side, but there's nothing in the California side except for a post office and a bar. And on the other side and the Arizona side we'd cross a bridge so I went to school in Arizona. So like California like paid Arizona for me to go to school there because there is no school on the California side. And so so yeah, and my mom and my grandma still still live there. My mom works at the school district still

outrageous. Do you fly in? Do you fly into Palm Springs and drive a couple hours? Where do you fly to? Where do you fly to?

Well, if so, I drive because I live in LA. So to show it's like six hour drive from here. We usually what we do is we go and we stay the night in Palm Springs, so we drive like two or three hours to Palm Springs stay the night and then do the rest of the trip. But if you were flying in, you would fly to Vegas or Phoenix and then drive. Palm Springs is a boozy airport. It's expensive to fly to Palm Springs. So Vegas or Phoenix, you can usually get like the, you know, cheaper deals and

cheaper flights. Yeah. Yeah. You know, as a, as a speaker does a lot of work in the college market. I've been to a lot of random towns, right. I was just in Pikeville, Kentucky, flying to Cincinnati and drive three hours into the mountains of Kentucky. And so like this part of me, it's like I'm surprised I haven't heard of this town because I've landed and had driven three hours to nowhere shadrin, Nebraska, Carbondale, Illinois. And so one day one day we'll get out to party.

There is a there there is a community college called Arizona Western college. So who knows maybe the 42 students there someday? They deserve to hear from you. I believe.

I believe you. I'm sure most of them listen to this random podcast here. So we're gonna book this gig.

I like it. I like it. I'll, I'll I'll be like your I'll introduce you or something. I want to be there for this.

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I got a guy.

You have an entourage you bring your own intro. Your speaker intro?

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, we go get there. Those are goals. Those are goals. Mike, this show is called diner talks with James, we've already started talking about restaurants, which makes me happy. But I'm a huge fan of late night eating because it's usually with great human beings. Right? I don't just do it alone frequently. But if I do we call those sad days. But anyway. So but I'm wondering, you know, do you have a late night guilty pleasure? I know, I know. You are newly a father. And so maybe we're not going out and going as hard. But do you have a late night? Guilty pleasure? like food wise? Yeah, sure. I mean, I guess I'll take anything at this point. Now. I'm curious about it all, but

it's like, what were you gonna say? Like, well, what was the other option here? I mean, we already were talking about milk hinges, so it's gonna go downhill.

That's right. That wasn't on the air, though. So.

So now people are very fast. Yeah. Well, you have to save for the after show. That's right. That's what you do. I don't know how that works. What is my guilty pleasure or late night food? I think that if I was like in a diner, I don't know. I'm kind of boring. I would get like eggs and I wouldn't like want a lot of extra. So you know what really bothered? Let's talk about this. What really bothers me is you go to the late night diner and you say like, Hey, I'll have like some crispy bacon. And they give you three pieces of bacon. No, I want a platter full of bacon. I want like Mike is on the Carnival Cruise Line and the bacon bacon Ben just open and I pick it up and I take the whole bin of bacon to the table. That's the amount of bacon I want. I don't want two pieces. I don't want three pieces. I don't want to have to order 74 sides. Like just bring me a platter of bacon. That's what I want.

Perfect. Yeah, perfect platter. Oh, bacon. No, no. Get your grubby hands off this bacon. It's like, Oh, yeah, that should be Yeah. We'll work on the branding here. The Yeah, but the idea that you know, you pay like $4 for a side of bacon. And I'm getting I'm paying $1.25 a strip over here that make a damn sense. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's still often not crispy enough

that I know that. It's like, I want to go I want to just like be like, can I have permission to go in the kitchen? And just fry this until it is ready? Because it needs to snap?

Yes. 100% 100%

What is your answer to that question?

My answer to that question. So I mean, being raised in the northeast of a giant diner, diner individual so I'll late night I'll go I'll go pancakes from time to time. And I also love a good grilled cheese with ham on it. Yep, for sure. And in french fries with little ranch to dip a man.

I like dessert. You know what the grilled cheese I forgot about that there was this? When I back when I was doing improv in Chicago, you know, we would be done at like, one and two in the morning. You know, putting on the greatest theater for drunk people at midnight. Um, and we would go to this place called the pick me up cafe. And it was so I felt like I was a cast like, I felt like I was a not a cast member but a character inside of rent going to the life cafe because it was like that it was like eclectic and it had like multiple levels like you would walk in and there were steps everywhere and yeah, it was like you know, two days of playing hooky playing and it was so fun in what I always got there. They had this really good like multigrain bread with like little seeds in it. And I got this grilled cheese with tomato. And guess what? Bacon? So good.

outrageous. outrageous. Yes. I'm someone who does not always love tomato on a sandwich, but I could do it on a grilled cheese. I don't know what Yeah,

yeah, it is our diners connected to the northeast, you said like I'm from the northeast. So I love diners. Is that a thing?

I believe it is. But I'm also ethnocentric. So you're great American. as a as a New Yorker, I firmly believe that is the epicenter and everything else just spins around it. And but I do I mean, yeah, I would I do believe that they are. I mean, like, for example, like in the Midwest, like in Detroit diners are called coneys. They're named after Coney Island where all these diners were right. And so so I do believe it started out there. A lot of Greek immigrants and stuff like that they kind of started

Oh, the Greek diners Yeah.

But don't quote me on that. And I don't do a fact check like armchair experts. So we'll just assume I'm right and keep going. But yeah, that's awesome. And you know, another famous spot as a fellow improviser in Chicago, the salt and pepper Next, the old guy, oh, yeah, good diner that I've eaten out a few times,

many times. So we would always avoid after shows at i O, we would avoid salt and pepper. Because so many of the audience members would go there. We look I mean, we'd eat there a lot, but we would avoid it after shows and go to pick me up because it was always the light. It's just like three more steps down the road there. Because it was also pick me up was also the place where when all of this is probably why I went there actually had nothing to do with seeing audience members, when all of the gay bars would let out. That's where everyone would go. So is this like this like Milan's of I don't even know if that's the right word. But I like it. This like Melange of like, drag queens and like drunk, gay frat boys and, and performers. It was fun

improvisers just doing that. Let's just do a bit with everybody for day. Yeah, the

whole thing was just you can see the the the servers were always you know, it's like, you try to be cute. And it's like, I'm serving grilled cheese sandwiches for five bucks. Like, don't be cute with me, like, drink your juice and shut up.

Let's go honey. Oh, shoot. That's amazing. You mentioned that you were a flight attendant. So in a way your serving career continued. Just took a took a bit of a turn.

I'm offended. We were there for people safety, James. Oh, yes. Right. Yep. Sorry.

Very sorry. Sorry. So what what drove you to be a flight attendant? How did that happen?

I was living. So I went to college. I dropped out of college for like a million reasons. But I left college after a year and a half. And I went live. This is when I went and lived with my aunt in North Carolina where I worked at the fancy restaurant. And then I thought, Okay, I'm going to go back. I'm going to go back to California slash Arizona. I'm going to like work at Pizza Hut for this summer. And then I'm going to move to LA and you know, I'll walk along Sunset Boulevard and someone will surely say yeah, you should be a star kid. That's not how it works oddly, except in like porn. It doesn't work that way. For like, anyway. So I thought that that's what was gonna happen. I came home and I didn't go back to. I didn't make any plan to move anywhere. And I was like, miserable. And my grandma lived in my grandparents. My grandma was like, You are miserable. My whole life. I was like, always just like, happy little guy. always optimistic, always looking at the positive. And I just was like, negative and angry. And that wasn't me. And she was like, What is going on? You need to get out of here. Like, you can't stay in this town. You've got to leave. What do you want to do? And I was like, I don't know. I feel so lost. I want to be famous. And I don't know what you do to do that. Because I wasn't even like, I wasn't even gonna fake it to be like, I want to be an actor. No, I just wanted to be famous. I didn't care about being an actor. I just wanted people to know me. Whatever the vessel was, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was I don't care what it is. And so she said, Well, what? what interests you and I was like, I want to see the world. I, I never went anywhere. And so she was like, Okay, let's let's do this. So I started auditioning for cruise lines to sing in the shows. But I looked so young. When I was like, 19. I really looked like a little baby. And so I was like, well, I can't, it didn't really and I couldn't dance. So like I couldn't play the leading man in these shows on cruise ships. And I couldn't dance. So I couldn't play all the other roles. So it wasn't getting or maybe I just couldn't sing. I don't know. I wasn't getting the roles. Yeah, it's just like, well, if you want to see the world, like what about being a flight attendant, I always thought that would be cool. I was like, sure, whatever. So I went to two interviews and I got both the jobs. And one was working for it was called, I think Arizona West airlines or something like that. And it was basically Like, you know, little commuter Phoenix to LA Phoenix to San Diego, that kind of thing. And the other was called American trans air. And they did all of these charter commercial or charter flights. And we're starting to do commercial, but it was to Hawaii to, you know, Shannon Ireland to Palermo, Italy. And I was like that. So that's what I want to do. So I took that job and got based in Chicago, and that's how I ended up in Chicago. And then I did that for a year. And then 911 happened, and we all everybody got furloughed, and I was so low in the ranks. It's all you know, Union, so I was the lowest seniority, so I didn't get the job back. So then I was like, I guess I'll go back to serving people food.

So this is my sign.

Though, a huge cataclysmic thing happened to tell me head back to the kitchen kid.

Yeah. Were you able to see some really incredible times? or places I should say, while you were flying with them?

Yes. It was interesting, because the forever the airline had been a charter airline. So they would fly people. They did like pleasant Hawaiian holidays, pleasant Mexican holidays, they did all these, like charter flights, to really cool places. They would, you know, take people on groups of people to vacation destinations. And they had they bought a bunch of new 730 sevens to do commercial that they ended up selling later to Southwest when they went bankrupt. And so initially, I was like, I'm gonna go to Hawaii. And it's like, nope, you're going to Cleveland that was like, Yay, Cleveland rocks. So I was, so I did some of that. But But I did eventually get to go all these cool places. I went to Hawaii. I lived in Hawaii for like a month once. Put up in there. I was so poor, like you make like no money as a flight attendant, really. But I stayed in like, a hotel like, right downtown Waikiki. And it was lovely and great. I went to Oman, Saudi Arabia, we did military charters as well. And so. And that was fun. If you know what I mean.

Oh no.

You're stuck in a military base with a bunch of people. Yeah. And I also I went to Shannon Ireland, that was another military charter was super fun. I went to and usually the military charters weren't fast turns, meaning like we didn't go and have to come back right away. So we had like, a bunch of time there because it was cheaper to leave us there than to fly us back with an empty plane. Went to went to Italy went to Guam. It was your on once. So yeah, pretty cool. And then I was a Spanish speaker. I was one of the Spanish speakers on the flight. So I went to San Juan Puerto Rico a ton, because that was like our one of our kind of date, we were kind of like a value airline that didn't sell itself as a value airline. And so we would do these turns wherever people had like family that they would visit a lot from Chicago. And so San Juan, there's a huge Puerto Rican population in Chicago. And so we would go to we had flights to San Juan Puerto Rico, like three times a day, for that reason. And also, I mean, vacation, too, but it was a lot of people visiting family coming back and forth. So I did that route, for a really long time as well.

What a cool opportunity to see a little bit of the world and also, you know, a lot of times flight attendants, you only get maybe a day on the ground or just a long night or something like that, right? Because the turn is happening a lot quicker on many of the commercial airlines. And so the fact that you were able to sit in Shannon for allow sit in Oman for a while, and some of these other places Hawaii for a month casual is awesome.

It was so I was in Hawaii with my roommate in Chicago. We were both there for not the whole time together but but a couple of weeks. And we didn't really have like money even to like go like we couldn't really afford to like go get drinks or anything we were like and we're eating at the continental breakfast and then shoving croissants in our bag for lunch and maybe dinner. We took a little ham to make a fancy sandwich in our rooms. And so she started dating, and I had several female roommates in Chicago, so no one I'm not outing anybody here, who now probably is married with children, but she started maybe Becca How'd you know? I'm kidding. started dealing with like a bartender. It's vacation dating. So the bartender knew that it wasn't gonna last forever either. And so we will get free drinks like the outrigger in Waikiki because we couldn't afford it's expensive Waikiki, and we didn't make a lot of money. So we dated for cocktails.

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.

No, I mean, we'll do that all the time.

Exactly. Yeah, for sure. Work smarter, not harder. Really. I think is that what they say in the world? Now it's funny because you know, you went to you decided to do this to try to find yourself and do something that brought you to life did it? Did it fulfill you to to fill the bucket or like super sad when it kind of all ended or did you kind of see the writing on the wall,

I there was a little bit towards the end, where I was getting bored within. Um I obviously there were more places that I wanted to see in the world. And I would have loved to have gone here and there and everywhere. But I was getting a little bit bored. And there's not really like an upward trajectory for flight attendants. For the most part, you can become like the lead flight attendant, but I was often the lead flight attendant, because nobody else wanted to do it. And I got stuck doing it basically means you like, collect the money at the end, because you're not anyone's manager. There's no managing of any of that. And so I was there at the end, I really wanted more, I wanted to do something more. I was auditioning a bunch as well. And so I did a commercial that had like a buyout. And so it's like, I made $5,000. Doing a class action is like class action, not class action. It was a civil, civil Injury Lawyer kind of thing. So I was like, I got smashed from my dad's car, and My neck hurts. What am I supposed to do? And so like, played some college kid that did that. And I got like, $5,000 for this buyout. And I was like, I don't need this stupid, flatten the job anymore. I'm rich, and I'm gonna get famous, like local personal injury lawyer commercials. And so towards the end, I was a little disillusioned, and I wanted more I wanted, I was only 20. I turned 21. That year of 911. And I was like, I wanted more. I wanted to do something more. And I was kind of starting to get a little bored.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's a It's funny, we both we both had a similar dream of fame growing up, and I'm not going to tell you that I've lost it. But it's still around

on the internet talking to each other. And like putting it out for people. Clearly, there's something still there.

Yeah, for sure. I'm wondering, when did that like, what was the trigger for you when you were younger? That like, Oh, this is what I really want to do. And what was it something that you washed? Was it a? Was it a celebrity? Or like, Oh, I want to be like, blank? Or like, what was it that that kind of triggered that idea in your brain?

I don't know that there was any like, person I've like deep. I have a I have deep feelings about about some of the professions that we chase and where they come from, and like the inner healing and inner bonding we're doing with that. And so I don't know, did I enjoy performing did I enjoy because even as a even as a server, even as a as a waiter, and later on is as a restaurant tour. I understood the whole time that I was creating theater for people that it was always a theater, like restaurant dining is theater. And so there was something of it. That was always a bit performative for me. And I think, you know, it's like a chicken and egg thing. It's like, once I like did I pop out of the womb being like, Hello, my baby, like, I don't know, if that was the case, do we learn to be performative. Because of something we're taking care of our healing or trying to get attention, or whatever the case is. So I don't know, chicken or egg where it comes from. But I do remember being really little, and always recognizing that if you could do something to, if you could do something engaging, that you could have people's attention, and that having people's attention and holding it was the most valuable thing in the world. I recognize that really early. And, you know, I think I, when I was a flight attendant, doing my little announcements, did I add a little extra, you know, just the cost of the course? I did? Yes. I mean, I did voices. I did it all. When I was a waiter, was it always performative? Absolutely. And so there was something where the through line of my life has always been that if you can create something engaging, relevant, that can hold people's attention, then you can have whatever you want in the world. And that's kind of probably the strongest through line. I recognize where did that come from? I'm not sure I haven't gotten that far in therapy yet.

Okay. All right. Well, we'll have you back on Then why did you unpack a little bit more your life?

yet? You so it's, it's fascinating because I have a somewhat similar story in that. I don't know if you know this about me, I have a Bachelor of Science in marine biology. And so in getting that degree, I didn't get that because I was excited to do research for the rest of my life. I got that because I watched Jacques Cousteau growing up, and I wanted to educate people about sufficiency. But if you were if you're going to boil it down, like I wanted to be on television for that and doing doing exactly what Jacques Cousteau was, like, this dude's old, like so who's gonna replace them? I'm coming Coming up next, you know, and like, so now, but when you boil the down what I wanted to do was entertain people and make them think at the same time around a topic area that mattered a lot to me, then I thought you matter to them. And then you fast forward to where I am today. And that's, that's what I'm doing now as a speaker. Right? It's that same, it's an underlying current that is there. And so I completely hear what you say. And I think, yeah, that was beautifully put.

And it's an interesting, I think that more people, you know, like, a lot of the work I do with folks is around finding those moments. Because I think like, if you're going to be on stage, if you're going to be sharing something, you know, it's finding the like, what is yours to say, what is only you can say it because that's the thing we should be on stages, and on screens talking about is everything else we can Google. And what I often find is that people have that same thing that I had, and that you had, when they really start to dig deep to say, Actually, my whole life, I've kind of always, it's almost like an airplane when an airplane takes off, and then it lands. And it's like the whole time it's just repositioning because it's always it's never on course, the airplane is always just course adjusting all the way till it lands. And it's almost like somehow, somewhere someplace in our childhood, maybe there's a point that set a set point. And then we spend the rest of our lives adjusting back to it. And so for you, it's entertaining and performing. For me it was entertaining and performing. And I find that most people, when we look at everything they've done, there's some kind of through line like that. Yes. And then we find interesting ways to do it. I mean, you went Who would have thought I didn't think this was an option like to travel around and like people are gonna pay me to talk to them on stage about, like, you know, the things that I talked about, I never would have thought that was an option for performing and doing the work that we do.

Yeah, you know, my guidance counselor wasn't out here with this idea.

Nobody said like, you know, so and so I was gonna pay you to come and teach their companies how to tell better stories. You're like, I don't even know that was an option.

Yeah, exactly. All my stories right now, and and I found $5. What are you talking about? So yeah, I'm wondering, was there something digging back into childhood? I'm wondering if there was something that you used to do that your friends today would be like? Of course, you used to do that, like that is so quintessentially you. But sometimes these are the moments that we forget about, or like, oh, shoot, I used to really be just like that, you know? Yeah, there's something like that for you. First

of all, it would assume that I had friends growing up. Okay, great, great, great. I'm not like I'm kidding. I'm not kidding. It was like a horrible thing to be like a little, a little closeted, gay baby in the world. But I think that probably, like, if I went back and we move so much, so I never really knew people more than like a year because we were always moving. High School. We went to the same high school for three years. And it was the first time in my life, I'd ever gone to the same school for three years in a row. Yeah. And so I think if you went to all of those people like preschool through, maybe not preschool, because I don't know if I could read them, but preschool through. Maybe even that, that year and a half of college. The one thing I think I always that everyone would say like of course, this dude makes words and then speaks them. If there was a chance to read something in class. I was gonna take it, and I was gonna make every other person in that class feel like an incompetent twit who couldn't speak and couldn't read. Because I delivered those lines, honey. Yes. So I think that's one thing that people would say is like, Oh, of course, he says words, emotionally relevant and says them in that way. Because from as I remember, like going around the classroom and the teacher being like, we're going to read and I was like, oh, give me two sentences. Don't give me one sense. Give me two. Let me show you what I can do. And I just loved that the whole time. Always. I always loved it.

Yes. Every time I read I spirit read.

Yeah, it was never monotone. Never heard of her.

No, no, no, no. I'm going to put you right into night with Eli Rizal.

Let's read the school newspaper. Okay. I mean, I wrote the school newspaper as editor, but let me read it to you. You know, that was the greatest podcast back then I would have had seven.

That's That's an incredible quote. That's, that's awesome. I love those moments. Thinking back of like, Oh, of course. That's how you were. I think I shared this maybe in another episode, but when I was younger, we had this. We had this The stump. On the corner, we lived on a corner, we had the stump. And I would always ask my mom, can we go outside so I could wave at people as they go by? And like I just like, I like I piss extraversion, right, like, it's just to this day, that I want to be in a room full of strangers just hamming it up. Yeah. And like, that is still what I you know, love to do connect with people ask questions, learning about them, making them smile, like that's, you know, that. Yeah, it's so this is random things that we can go back to. And as we think about, like, you know, in my 30s, I'm lost in my 40s, I'm lost or like, what? Going back to some, like you said that, to me that like waypoint that you described, like, going back to it and just being like, what is something that brought me joy and a time where I didn't think about what brought me joy? It just did. And there's often a lot of gold for future opportunity in there.

Yeah, I think and I think it's interesting, because I think if we, if we, you know, if someone if someone is listening, and they thought like, I remember my stump or whatever the situation is for them. The the core driver of that, maybe not the stump, and maybe you didn't repeat the stump over and over. But the core like, driver of that I bet shows up again and again and again and again and again, in someone's life, you know, the same way did for you in the same way did for me, and there's something about that, that, that, I think has to do with like, why are you here? You know, like, that's probably why you're here.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. A 100% 100%. Now, you mentioned you mentioned that you're gay. I don't know if you knew that. But you let that be let that slip just but I'm, I'd be curious to hear. When When did you know that you were gay? Like what do you like? Is that when did when did you? I guess let's say come out to yourself.

Yeah, it's really it's it's so interesting with that I was I was recently I did like a one of these like online summits. And we did like a post interview after my session went on to like, engage the group in Facebook and the person was also theater person. She was, you know, grew up Theater in New York. It's like, Oh, my God, did you also grow up? Like, I made some like Barbra Streisand comments, like, did you? Were you guys like a Barbra Streisand house? And I was like, No, you know what I was so scared to like Barbra Streisand to like, share that. Because I felt like it would be in a need, I was scared, I wouldn't grow. Because I grew up in Southern California, I was really scared to like, go to Palm Springs ever. Like I was like, there. Because it was like known as like a place where more gay people were, I was scared when we went, we lived in Sonoma County for a little while with my grandparents when I was at freshmen. And I was so scared to like go into San Francisco. Because it was like, I know that some I just was expecting that there would be like a line of gay people who were like, he's gay, like waiting for us as we crossed the Golden Gate Bridge. And I was like, I don't I know that they're gonna look at me. And my husband and I were just talking about this of like, being so scared to be seen by someone who was gay, and then knowing you know, them knowing the thing that you're unwilling to admit. So I was just so this whole thing has come up recently, I was talking about it. And I don't remember. I remember always feeling different. But I also grew up in like a really small, really small, rural places. They exist in California. And always being performative, always wanting to write and sing. And I thought, maybe it's not gay, maybe it's just that I'm by a bunch of plebes. And they don't know that, like, you know, because it was like, we do that so often with like, kids and high schoolers, where it's like, if you want to act and sing, that's a very gay thing to do. And it's like, but look at Hollywood, like it's obviously not. And so I remember really young being feeling different, cuz like, all my friends were were girls, I wanted to like put on little shows, I wanted to sing, and I wanted to dance and I wanted to be creative. And I wanted to write, and early on, people would ask me, you know, like, Oh, are you a girl or a boy, like when I was little, and they would call me girly, they would do that kind of thing. And that kind of bullying continued on through till college. And I don't know. You know, like, I grew up with it being such not an option of not only did I never know, any, my idea of like, what it meant was that you were going to in that grind on the 80s, that you were going to get sick and get and have AIDS and die, because that's what we were seeing in the media that and then also being in small places where that was also like a disgusting thing to do, or that you were going to be some kind of like a pedophile or something, because that's what I saw. That's what I was told all the time. And I just knew that I wasn't I didn't want either of those things. So I think, I don't remember when I started to say, like, I'm gonna, I recognize that I might be and I'm gonna push it out. I don't know when that happened. I know that in high school, I had like a journal, where I started to like, talk about it a little bit. But then I was like, maybe it's just because I'm, you know, like, I'm a teenage boy. And I just want it all the time. And so maybe it doesn't matter to me. And then I came out in I had a girlfriend in my freshman year of college, like a more serious one. And then I broke up with her, and had like my first boyfriend, my first experience with a guy, and then broke up with him and got back with her. And then I did that for several years. Because again, I just didn't see any role models of like, what I didn't know anybody like me now who was like, married and had a baby. Yeah, that didn't seem like an option to me. And that is why I've shared so often, that visibility, and if you can, if you're in a place where you are safe. sharing your story really does matter. Because someone is watching and can say, oh, that just opened up an option for me that I didn't know existed.

Yeah. Yeah, those moments, though, that when going from feeling unseen, to feeling seen, yeah, even if you don't, even if you don't exactly know that person, but just to know, right, like, as, as black students walk through the halls of universities with rows of portraits of white men presidents mean, like, is this What's happening here? Right? And you know, just that, yeah, that power of relatability. When we see ourselves in someone else, we we believe that we can, yeah, and you hadn't been able to sound based on what you just shared, you really hadn't seen yourself in anybody else. And yeah, you shared something, something powerful that is so different than I as a straight person would ever have to think about. Turns out that's what privileges not having to think about things. But anyway, let's move on. But still, the thing is, that, that you were talking about was that, and I'd love to hear a little bit more about it if you'd be willing, but like that fear of being seen by another buy, buy, buy a out gay person, queer person, and then being like, you're one of us. Like, you're clearly you're clearly gay, little boy, let's let's have a conversation. Like what? What What was that fear? Like? What? I guess, you know, when you think of when I think of fears, I think of like, well, this is the worst that could happen. So if someone, if someone like if you went to Palm Springs, and and met and met a man, and it was like, Oh, yeah, okay, you're, you're a little gay boy. or whatever it is, whatever the language is that you would you know, that you would prescribe there. What is what is the fear there?

For me, it was I think, like the deepest level, the real fear is that you'll be sent out, you know, that you'll be ostracized. And so this world that I grew up in was not one of, of, in my family, my mom and my dad, and my grandparents are not like hateful people. They're lovely people, but like, they were steeped in an environment that they had, they'd never known anybody who was I think I was the first person they ever knew who was gay. When I came out to them, I don't think they ever knew anyone. And at the time, when I did that, 19, there wasn't even a lot of celebrities. So they didn't even know somebody like, Oh, I really like that person, and they're gay. And so there wasn't even that. So I think that the real fear whether justified or not, I think this is what keeps people in the closet as well. There's the fear of like, actual violence, and that that happened to people that that that are abused by family members for for being gay. And so that's a real fear that people have. And I think the other big fear that keeps people in the closet is that you're going to be tossed aside that you're going to be an out in the community. And, and this is the one thing I've talked about a lot with friends who will say something will say like, Ah, well, I posted before about, like, my journey with my mom who's who's wonderful and great and such a part of my life and with my husband and my daughter. But like it was a journey too. And so I've posted that before and people will message or message me privately and say, Ah, that's why with my kid, I make sure he knows that. Like if he brings home a boy or a girl. It just doesn't matter yada yada and I always say that's not the point. Because we are in an environment where it is assumed to In any any and you as well as a new dad, like me, I have to really think about not, I have to think a game man, I have to think not to say like, oh is this little guy going to be her boyfriend, like, who maybe they'll get married with like my friend's son or something. Yeah. That's the world that we live in. Even if mom and dad say we love the gays, the gays are great, let's do gay all the time. If you want to be gay, you can be gay, we still live in a world where it is not assumed it is assumed the opposite. It is assumed that if you're a girl, you're going to get married, you want the princess wedding, it's assumed that if you're a guy, you're into these things, everything in our world is situated to that. And even if you're in an environment where your mom says, either way, I love you, you always know that you're in a household, where you're probably the product of two straight parents. And so even if the straight parents say we love the gays, and we love you, if you are, you still realize I'm different than them at the core level, in my own home, where these should be the people I most identify with in the world, I am different than even my parents. That's a really interesting thing to consider. And I think the fear for people is coming out and being like shipped out of that, but also coming out and saying specifically, I am different than the rest of you in this house. Yeah, that's hard. That's hard.

Like that is a huge pill that you just shoved into my mouth and making me swallow. But it is such an important one. And I mean, as much as Tina is TV's favorite show in the world is through Paul's drag race. It's on probably seven hours a day in the house. There's also seasons of it. Exactly, yes. And I've, I've now seen most of them just buy a piece of mail. And so it's a great job. It's very fun. But But still, like, just because that's on doesn't mean x just because our gay friend came over does mean x just because we have a pride flag that hangs in front of her house doesn't mean that that is what you just said is so powerful. And again, I never thought of it that way. That who knows if this this little boy that we're raising how he's going to identify. And yeah, that's, that's huge. And I really appreciate you sharing, sharing a little bit of what it was like and some of those fears when you're growing up. Because, you know, it's easy to assume that everybody just grew up like you, right? Like, you know, you don't, if you have knowledge, you have a life experience. And that just is what that's all you know, right? And this is where people get stuck today. Because they're more interested in being right, than what is right. And so a lot of that comes down to and what I've been trying to ask myself a lot since I left my hometown is okay, your let what you just described, for example, Mike is so different than anything I've ever had to deal with. But rather than recoiling and being like, well, that can't be true. Well, that's not a thing. Right? Let's I never, I never saw that, right? Instead, it's like, well, what if that is true? You know, if that is true, what else is true? Go into some good improv stuff, right? And as a good comedy rule, but it's also applies to people's lives, and their lived experiences now and yeah, I just, I just really appreciate that you, you being vulnerable for us in there in that moment.

Thank you. Thank you. It's, it's interesting, too, because the other I was interviewed for a show. And this happened more than once I was interviewed on stage actually in a panel once. And I was like, the, the, the chosen dignitary of the alphabet group of the LGBTQ plus community. And they asked, and it was about, like, representation or something like that. And the person asked me about being a black trans woman, like, what would that be like? And I was like, I have no idea, like, asked you what it would be like, yeah, like trying to say like, as not like, what is the personal struggle, but like, you know, what did it mean for representation in that community? How do they feel? And I was like, I don't know. Because like I have, as I have this, I have similar blinders that anyone else has to that community, because I'm not one. And so there's this assumption even of like, well, if you're LGBTQ plus any of those things, then you're all you all have the same experience. You've all lived the same experience. You all have shared things and it's like, no, there's there's a big range even in that community of of what people have gone through and what they've seen in that. It really does. I mean, this is such a topic I hear a lot from. I have a friend who worked in the university world and student Student Life She was the very first person I ever heard speaking about intersectionality. And it really, when you hear somebody talk about, like, you know, talk about it, you're like, of course, like you can be a white man who was who grew up poor, who did this, you could be a black woman who grew up rich. And so you have this. And I think that we forget that sometimes when we're thinking about these experiences of like, there's my husband, another white gay man, his experience being gay was totally different than mine, you know, and it's so easy to forget that, because we've watched one movie or like, donated to the Trevor Project, that we understand everyone in that community. And I think when you realize that there's more to us than, you know, the characters, I'm willing grace, I think it maybe opens up your ability to understand that about everybody, like, including including you, like, we start to see like, oh, there's a lot of layers here. And it's just so easy to see them. It's difficult to see them. It's a lot of work to see them, you know,

sure, yeah. Because not seeing them is easier. Right? Right. And it's,

it's what we're wired to do. It's It's such a painful truth of our human experiences, that we're not supposed to be a global community. We're not supposed like, part of the reason that that storytelling, I think exists that verbal communication exists is because we were trying to decide who's in and who's out, and the people who could use stories or ration to convince other people of things God included. And that inherently implies that as a human species, we are wired to create others. And it's I think one of our big challenges today is that we're fighting in some level biology that served us once upon a time that doesn't serve us anymore, you

know? Yep. Yeah. 100%. And so much of it goes back to psychology and who makes me feel safe. But where did you learn what safety is? Right? Right, Who taught you what safe meant? And yeah, for sure. 100%. And, you know, you mentioned you mentioned your husband, Phil. And you and Phil have this this beautiful relationship? We're out here. chinchin with the wine left and right. And having a really beautiful, a beautiful time. And Phil, Phil's a restaurant tour. Correct. You're both restaurant tours.

He's a chef.

He's a chef. Okay. Excellent. Great. Well, I'm glad somebody said Phil. Bad joke. I'm sorry about that. We'll edit that up. No, we want

that job. Greatest freedom.

Exactly, exactly. So what was it that enabled? You and I know that this was obviously years of experience, life, and etc, etc, as part of the answer to this, but at the end of the day, finding someone who we love deeply, still means we allow ourselves to be seen by them, then a lot of what you're talking about in your fears, is like, I don't want to be seen by some of these individuals. Because that means it could mean could mean x, y, or z. Now I'm and so that what was it letting someone in like that, like, like a Phil, where you're like, I'm gonna let this person see me for for all this hot mess. Sorry, we got going on down below.

Oh, I think that still, I mean, we've been together for almost 17 years now. And I think it's still happen, happens every day or happens all the time, partly because I think that we are constantly learning more about ourselves. there's a there's a psychologist who wrote like a very early book on on the inner child, inner child, inner adult, and called inner bonding. And Margaret Paul is the is the author of that. And that the inner child, inner inner adult thing is all about like, recognizing that probably at some point, our inner child like was created to keep us safe to keep us protected. And that in every instance, we have two choices only, we have the choice to protect ourselves, which typically is coming from that inner child, the your adult, your present adult is trying to protect the inner child from getting hurt in some way. Or you have the opportunity to learn and explore something. And I think that in intimate relationships, that is constantly the question we're being asked is, am I doing something here to learn about myself and learn about us? Or am I doing something here to protect myself? And do I need to protect myself? Is that valuable anymore? It goes back to what you were just saying about the psychology of how did you learn to do that to protect yourself because we all have it like our our proclivities our addictions. Are the way we numb ourselves, whatever the key, I would argue that anyone who says like, oh, people are addicted to their cell phones, because of the cell phones, that is wrong, you're addicted to your cell phones, because we're numbing something that we're trying to protect ourselves from whatever that is. And I think that in a personal relationship, like in my marriage, we've, it is evolving all the time. And for me, having a child like a year ago, really shifted my identity in so many ways that I did have to ask questions where it's like, I never had to think about this before, why do I do this? It wasn't a problem. It didn't bother me. And so and I'm like, the primary stay at home person during the week. Because of COVID, I don't have to travel as much to speak. And, and I've been moving my business more to doing private coaching and bringing people here to LA to work with them anyway. And so that brought up a bunch of things. And it always I think, in that close personal relationship, like a marriage, I think it always brings up the stuff of like, oh, shoot, here's this whole thing I never talked about or dealt with, because I didn't need to, and then having a baby, being in a close personal relationship, I think can really push you up against that. And so I would say, for 17 years, we've been every moment, deciding, am I protecting myself? Or am I learning here and making the wrong choice a whole bunch of times. And for whatever reason, we just kept, you know, waypoint finding each other again, we had like a Ross and Rachel breakup in the middle, where we just were not understanding each other. And it is interesting, my therapist, a couple weeks ago, we were talking about something and I was talking about being annoyed of some really stupid, ridiculous thing, and questioning, like, why am I so upset about this really simple thing, you know. And she had said, it was really interesting that in a way you want to be seen, you want to be acknowledged and seen by Phil in this way. And yet in this other way, where he sees you and says something you don't want to be seen? And I was like, I think that probably probably is the case for a lot of relationships like that, you know?

Yeah, yeah. 100% Yeah. And I think a lot of it gets spiked in, in parenting. Oh, yeah, for sure. All of its all of its coming out. All of it's coming out. And I love the way you put it, because I related to something that I've often thought and even tell Tina aware, it's, it is way easier for me to love her than it is some days to let her love me. Oh, yeah. Right. You know, it's just like, yeah, just because the whatever's going on in my head. And whenever I'm thinking I'm bringing to the table or not bringing to the table or things that I perceive as failures, or as like, I'm a bad partner like things that that are they don't even notice. And so yeah, it's crazy. And, yeah,

and like the little times where it's like where in this instance, you know, maybe it's broad in general, with everyone, maybe it's this specific instance with one specific person, but like, we learn also sometimes to, to put other people's feelings ahead of our own as a way to earn love even, which is such a, that's such an interesting thing to explore as well. And so it's like, oh, yeah, it's so much easier. Sometimes I'm not saying this is what happened for you there. But it's so much easier to love and give than it is to get the love because we think that I have to do that to earn the love. So if all of a sudden you're doing it to me, I'm not earning love right now, even though you're giving it to me. And it's like that is fundamentally like the weirdest messed up thing. But that happens to me a lot. That specific thing that you mentioned.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And the checks in the mail for that counseling session.

basically going to therapy, and then the next week I use it on someone else. Exactly. Yeah, that's what we're all doing out here. Right.

I call myself a pharmacist, I pass out the drugs, I don't take them. No, you should do this. I've been have literally made money teaching other people what I need to hear for, you know, 15 years.

I always say this when people when they so like when people when I'm working with folks, and they're like, Oh, I did this like ideal customer avatar activity. And my ideal customer is a woman named Claire who lives in the suburb and has a charcuterie business and a Honda Odyssey. And it's like, No, your ideal customer is you a couple of years ago that's who I think we're speaking to. That's what I think like, you know, you look at you look at leading and perfectly your book there and it's like that book is for you at some point in the past and that's why it's relevant and that's why it's rich and that's why there's so much meaning I think, one

Yeah, I agree with you. I'm here for that sauce. So you and I are both new, new parents. The the the wonderful and stunning a Viviana is a year old and we're at eight months so we're not we're not that far behind from each from you all and I you know and becoming parents One thing that was always told to me and I'm sure to you also is that everything changes. Right? And so, but here's the thing is that I had no concept of what everything meant. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, some things are gonna change. But, Mike literally everything has changed. Yeah. And it's crazy, right? But I don't know who knows how to wrap your head around that until it actually happens to you. I don't know if there's any more prep work I could have done but that but still it is it is. It is rocked my world. And it's a really, really beautiful, incredible ways. And it's some other ways where I'm like, yo, bro, the mirror is kind of scary. Right? And, yeah, I'm wondering how the now that you're a year in? isn't what you thought it would be? Is it? How are you doing? What How does it feel? What's going on Viviana and how racks your brain? How that little one wrack your brain?

You know what's interesting is people say like it, you know, the whole like, oh, it changes everything. And the things that I thought it would change were all of the like cute things. I'm like, oh, you're not gonna get any sleep and like you met an intern and you're gonna put your baby first. And you know, all of those things, you x. All of that was like exactly as expected. I didn't. So this is all very like deep. Like, this is like the diner where people look at the table. And like, why is that guy crying over there with another dude the whole time. And that's me today. So and I say this as like I you know, earlier in the show I talked about like, putting things out there that you've that you can say safely because maybe someone will listen and hear it. So this is my interest in doing this. I really suffered. In the beginning, I had like really serious post postpartum depression which men get as well. Um, like really, really seriously. And we had a you know, Viviana was a preemie. So like when we brought her home, she was still a month before her actual due date. So we she came home with us before, like, you know, whatever that was 35 weeks or something, she was four and a half pounds. And so like she really, really for a while, like three or four months, like didn't even acknowledge that I existed. And it was winter. I mean, it's winter in LA, but it's still winter, it still gets gloomy. You can't go on walks in the sun, it was COVID. So I didn't even feel safe, like taking her to like, taking her to like Target or walking around. There was nowhere to go. And I just was so I had a really hard time with the beginning. And I did not expect that at all. And I did not expect the amount of guilt that sometimes I still feel of I don't care how many times somebody says like, Oh my god, self care is so important as a parent, like you really have to take care of you. It is really hard for me personally, and I think a lot of people to not feel like a total trash person. doing any of those things, taking care of any of the things you need to take care of for yourself. Putting on your own oxygen mask first. I know it makes sense but it is really frickin hard to do when you do it. Binge your whole time feeling guilty. And so I didn't expect any of that like that. I didn't read that I didn't find an Instagram quotes that I didn't listen to on a podcast. None of that was I ready for and that all shocked me a lot of like, Whoa, you really feel and then there was a little things like yesterday, we went for her year, year wellness check where they do all of the 12 month vaccines by get ready by the way. The 12 months. There's like seven vaccines they give them Oh, wow.

Okay, but seven shots. Yeah. Oh,

you have to hold her down. I had to hold her down with her hands. And she's staring at me like he tubu Tang like she is just like you and and then she did this cry that I'd never heard before. She was like doing that. And I'm sobbing My tears are dripping on her as I'm holding her arms and this nurses jabbing her with the vaccines. And then afterwards, she's crying the nurse leaves because she's like Vivian is triggered by the nurse at this point. She leaves. I'm standing in there with this like naked baby. And I'm just holding her and I'm sobbing probably for 12 minutes. sobbing because it was like I and then she was fine. Five minutes. I will be talking about this for 22 years in therapy. Nobody told me about that either. Okay, so. So I read the wrong books, I think.

Yeah. Where are those books at? Yeah.

Gosh, if I could pay if I could have paid Phil to like be like you go to the doctor this time around. And then last night, she had a little bit of a fever, which you know, you get from the vaccine sometimes. So then I was like, oh, now Now she has a fever and it's my fault. And I did this and I held her down and she's gonna remember this forever. And someday at her college graduation, when she's like graduating, she'll be like, I've never forgiven you. I never want to speak to you again because you held me down that time and I know it's unrealistic. But that is what goes through my head.

Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, it's incomprehensible that you're just like gonna forget this, even if I can't think back to what I was thinking at nine months, but like it still does, it's still a while I'm holding my eight month old baby. I'm like, Well, here it starts right now up for Time to get up for therapy next year, Like what? Like, when do we start all this?

Right? When did when does it? When did you know? Is there a version that's not talk therapy with the kid just does something? And there is actually I'm sure there's some kind of therapy for babies. Oh, 100.

Yeah, you know, someone's monetize everything out here. And if it isn't, you and I have a business plan to talk about after this call. But But yeah, it is. It's fascinating. The way it just racks your brain now. And especially, I mean, for you, as someone as someone who is playing the role of like you said, stay predominantly stay at home dad, let me You're, you're in the thick of it, you're in the throes of it even more. So. Now. I mean, and yeah, I mean, you know, with with Tina and I were traveling a lot. And you know, Rome came out with Johnny right before we got on that, you know, Rome came down with a rash. And I'm talking to Tina in South Carolina and facetiming her I mean, like, look at this, look at this rash on his legs or whatnot. And she's like, why does it always happen? Whenever only one of us, only one of us is there, he never gets sick when what like when both of us are there, we can both take the burden and like and I'm and now I'm out here in South Carolina, being a shitty parent talk to an audience and women didn't give a shit about me. And like, you don't I mean, like, you just write these stories. And I read the same stories on the nights where he just he just has terrible nights to sleep or I'm gone. And I'm like, Okay, good. Now, now your whole day tomorrow is screwed. And it's because I wasn't there. And you just you just write the storytelling in parenting is fascinating. And it's predominantly us telling stories to ourselves. And is most of them are dark. And yeah. It's just so fascinating to do something that is on a daily basis punching you in your insecurities. Yeah. It's fascinating.

I mean, do you find that like, I? Like I thought if you had asked me like a year ago, in August, before she was born, how are you? I would have been like, pretty stable. I know myself pretty well. I understand my stuff. I think I'm really clear on it. I know I got this shadow side that I'm working on very like young Ian, by the way, yet Carl young is quite nervous. And I was like my shadow side, I'm in touch with my animus I know call. And then the person I am today, I would be like that friggin idiot from a year ago, at 40 years old. I'm 41. Right now, at 40 years old, I would have said like, you know, I'm not perfect, but I know myself today, but like, I don't know anything about myself. I don't know who I am. I know nothing. Do you feel that way with all of this? Like, the having a child really shoved me into being like, Oh, you think you know, you? You have no idea? Like the intro of a reality show?

Yeah, right. Big Brother. dewpoint hours? Yeah, yeah. Yes, I definitely have felt that. And I have also have one thing that I'm trying to do is that there were there are stories that I would write about myself. Like, oh, James, You're so selfish about time. Like, the most important thing. That's one of them, whether he's like Hamilton punched me in the face, right? Is this concept of time and ever, we're running at a time and right, like, I moved away from my parents. And now, you know, they're 74. And I'm like, Alright, well, they probably live to 88. And I'll see them four times, three times a year. So that means I'm only going to see my parents 30 more times in their life, or you don't I mean, like, it's just like, time, time time. So I was like, James, You're so selfish about time that you're not going to be very good parents, because this kid's not going to go down as quickly as you would like them to, and you had a phone call, or this is gonna happen and you're, they're gonna have to, he's gonna have to come home from daycare and your, your day is going to change and that's going to bother you. And like, so I knew those things going into it. And now there's part of me that wonders if I'm not giving myself grace. And instead, I'm just like, See, I told you, I told you this is what I told you before. Right? Like and and so there's a lot of times where I think I I just parenting has been me hanging out at the intersection of self awareness and last, and not realizing that those two roads connected.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, what a great like that, like even just like the subtitle of a book, it's Sunday we got to like co write a book together. And that's got to be the subtitle, the intersection of self awareness and loss and there's just like a side of like two last dads standing at a corner with a diner in the background, of

course, breeze brandings everything.

Really It's really it's a really interesting thing how it really does say, you know, you think you knew yourself? No, you didn't. And some really great ways. You're like, Wow, I didn't know I had the capacity to not be such a selfish prick all the time. That's been lovely. And wow, I can go outside and have like, before we started recording, I had a jacket on. And and I got here and I was like, well, there's milk all over it. This was the milk and just comment from earlier, by the way, if you're still sticking around, pay off is here. Because it was like covered in like, white stuff. And I was like, well, it's one or the other. And so like, I've realized, like, Oh, I can go outside and like I go out and like my little short dad shorts and who cares. And those things have been really interesting and lovely. And like, I won't die if my hair doesn't look perfect when I go outside. And like, Who cares if there's baby spit up on my shirt when I go to the grocery store? That's been lovely. That part. And then there's that whole other part that you're talking about? That's like, I don't wanna I don't need this wall to come. I was fine with that wall. built that wall. It's a beautiful wall. Why do we have to smash it? And then look at all the bricks and try to figure out who we are. I was good without doing that work.

Yep. So speaking of work, Mike, we call this a transition in the business, you for work. You are a storytelling coach. Everything that you do revolves around story. You help companies tell their story, find their story, you help individuals find their stories, learn how to tell them. Right? You're a TEDx coach, here, you got a lot of things, you yourself are a speaker where and where you tell your stories. And so this is this has been an interesting thing for me is that I have yet to tell any stories about fatherhood being apparent on stage. Because it's still i think it's it's all still a little, it's a little too new. It's too fresh. I don't, it's also probably part of like the perfectionist me or it's like, well, I don't have the nice little package for it yet. But I'll say it Yeah. James. Right. And so like, you don't have to set up punch. And so, but I will be fascinated to see the way that maybe and this my question to you is has it already started to impact the business side of what you do? Have you started telling the stories around parenting or becoming a parent? And if not, I'm wondering, you know, do you think you will? And what do you think that looks like,

in three really specific ways that already has one is that I've recognized, let's talk about privilege. I've recognized that as a man, I get a ton of credit for being a dad, and doing the things I do that women don't. So if I'm on stage, or if I'm on social, and I post about a baby, I don't have to worry for one second, about somebody seeing that and thinking he's not committed, he's not really ready. He's leaving a baby. And he's coming to work. I don't ever have to think about that. And in fact, I get so many brownie points for like, even just going to the grocery store as like a dad, and it's like, oh, like some lady chased me out to the car. This week, when I went to Costco to like, take the cart back for me, because I had Viviana in it, I was taking her out and I was gonna push the cart back, she like ran across the thing to get it to take it for me. People don't do that for moms enough. We just don't. And so that's one thing is I realized that as a business thing. As a business thing, my child is a great investment. I'm not saying that. I realize that as like a largely personal brand. And that like, people don't work with me unless they like me, that's just I I'm not like a business where they're gonna, you know, get the goods, they don't work with me unless they like me. Yeah, um, that that being a dad is like a really interesting part of that. So that's one thing too is that it shifted a little bit. The work I'm interested in doing. Like, I'm a little less interested in the like, how do we help you sell more of your coaching programs? And what I'm a lot more interested in is, how do we help you figure out who the hell you are? And how to give voice to that because like, I don't think that I make fun of the we're working on like a new website. And the when I was working with the copy person, they wrote the line, you know, find your voice. And I was like, nope, very specifically, I don't believe in that. We don't need to find our voice. We don't need to go on a quest. We don't need to go on a journey to see where it is. We didn't leave it in a drawer or anything like that. What we need to do is reveal the thing that we know is burning inside of us. And we need to get rid of all this stuff. So it's changing the work I'm interested in doing because it's it's more that work, which is pushing me more and more to working with individuals than it then it is working with companies. And then the third thing is that If I did my first in person, keynote a couple of weeks ago, a month ago, whenever that was in North Carolina, for like a big audience, and in big, beautiful theater is so cool. And I wrote a new ending to it. And so at the end my intro, it said that I was a new Dad, I referenced being a dad a couple times. And then at the end, I said, You know, I haven't really told you my story. I've been talking about this, I haven't shared my story. And I talked about like, how a year ago this baby blah, blah, blah. So why am I here? I showed a little picture of her holding my little finger in the knee q with her tiny little two and a half pound finger. And I was like, why am I here? Like, why? You know, I have to ask myself that, like, why did I get here? Why did I travel this way? Why am I here with you instead of with her. And then I show like a beautiful picture of her cute little face today. And I realize that the through line for me in this work is that I want my child to grow up in a world full of other people who realize that their experiences, their perspective, their stories really matter. And that being able to share those really, really matters. And this was this new ending I wrote. I cried. They cried. It was like this whole thing. Yeah, and so and so then. So then that's like, kind of the new ending because it's the truth of like, why do I think this matters so much? I think it matters. You know, like, a year and a half ago, I was like, oh, whatever. Like you want to sell more genes to teenagers, I know what you need to say. Yeah. And I just really don't give a damn about that anymore. What I really care about is like, what is the truth that you are here to reveal? And let's uncover that because that's the world I want my child to grow up and not one where someone figured out how to use narrative to sell a pair of skinny jeans.

We're also as parents experiencing all these raw emotions, and we're out here being like, you need to feel these raw emotions to you a bunch of pricks to make you cry. empty nesters, CEOs. Know that? Yeah, thanks for making me Well, up through that was really cool. But no, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. And thanks. And I love the way that you're already bringing it in. Right And that's, that's what we do. We take we take our experiences and and make them into it, make them into stories that that connect with others. And that's That's powerful. You know, I went I went through a divorce 556 years ago now. And I was telling my buddy who was also going through divorces, oh is also a speaker. And I was like, and like three years. This is gonna be such a good story. Yeah, this is hard. This is really rough right now. But like, this is this is gonna be this is one of those crucible moments. Yeah. Right. And that's kind of how I feel about parenting is that I'm trying to figure out, when does it come up? How does it come up? And so I really, really appreciate the way that you do that. Yeah, that was that was brilliant. For me,

it's really funny, too. I was. It's, there's something cathartic for me in like, and maybe like diabolical and not healthy in some way. But there's something cathartic for me and like, very quickly after something happens, like trying to find the meaning in it, so I can, like, do something with it. And in a lot of ways, it's good in some ways. I imagine that's probably bad. Because I struggled to like just sit with something and let myself marinate in it. I'm constantly like, what is the meaning of this? Let me package it and see what it is. But I write a lot. And for me, it almost feels to like extend my wound so far. It feels almost channeled in a way that there's like a my best friend. Um, I haven't talked about this before, on anything. My best friend of like 25 years that I met in college, recently passed away. And I'm like, surprisingly. And I remember I was driving back from her apartment here in LA I'm the only one that was in LA of her family or anything. So I was the one that went and got the pets and did everything. Yeah. Um, I remember feeling so like overwhelmed by how I felt when I was there and not knowing what not and it's okay. You don't have to know what you're gonna say in those moments. And I'm driving back from from place to our house. And it almost felt like a cat with a hairball that I had to pull over on the freeway. I like pulled over rush hour. You don't do that in LA, I pulled over on the freeway got off the off ramp. And I opened my phone and I just started writing and writing, writing. And it really clearly, it really clearly spoke to how I was feeling, it really clearly spoke to what I thought was was useful, meaningful to myself to other people about it. And I don't know where it came from, I don't know, because I wasn't thinking of it. And like, I should pull over and write this, it was like this impulse. And I do that so often, including with this, this story that I that I closed with, at that conference, about Viviana have like, it hits me and it's almost like a channel thing. And I think a lot of people have this, we just tend to, to ignore it, we tend to say, Oh, this isn't, this doesn't add value here. And so I don't think I have like any gift in in like being able to more quickly categorize what's happened to me and turning it into a story to use. It's like somehow something says, Here it is, go do something with this, or else you know, you're wasting. You're wasting life that you've lived that you could be sharing to help yourself and help other people, you know,

yeah, yes. Yeah, for sure. I think it's also it's a muscle that you have trained. Sure. And like it's, you know, like a comedian is gonna he's gonna grab the napkin and write the joke on the napkin really quick. And, but it is one that you have trained for absolutely beautiful reasons. Because I agree with you, right? It's like, hey, this, there's no way that impulsive. There's no way. I'm the only one who's going through this. Yeah, there's no way that's the only thing that this is just a me thing. Right now somebody else has been here, somebody else is going through it. Somebody else needs to hear this is a really beautiful notion. Now, I mean, that's what I teach. That's a lot of what leading and perfectly is about, right? It's like you got to lead to those slip struggles and, and stories, not just you know, your strengths. And so in your successes, and it's like you've got to, you've got to bring people in the power to help people feel seen and heard is outrageous. And that is something that you are exceptional at, at something that's other speakers need to be exceptional at. Before teaching, you got to make someone feel seen and heard. Because otherwise, why are they going to stay focused? Right on you? Right? And, and so it's a true gift that you have brother and thank you for sharing that I am deeply sorry for your loss. That sounds really hard. But I appreciate you sharing it with us. Thanks. Thank you. Yeah, it's been so cool hanging out with you, brother. We took about a roller coaster here. milken jizz to tears. I guess that'll be our second book. We gotta we gotta go riding here. But it has been so dope get to hang out with you in the diner brother. As I mentioned in your intro, that you're you've been someone who I've admired have watched right you kind of always have I don't know if you're like this, but you kind of have those other speaker friends. You're like, let me see what the students website looks like. I see the students promo video. Wow, this guy, what's he posted here? Right and like, and you're just someone who that I've always really appreciated and respected the way that you ran your business and the way that you carry your life. And it is a goal of mine to drink wine with you on a beautiful balcony somewhere. So we got to make that happen.

And I feel the same when we met recently for the first time in person. And I said, you know, like years ago, I like have a screenshot in my phone of of some image you posted and it was like this beautiful felt bag with like a brown leather strip or something of it. And I just remember being like this guy is so frickin cool. Like, he's so cool. He's got this cool logo. He's got this perfect book it has like everything people need to know. And I frickin love him. And I hate him. And I want to know him. And so for me, this is just like the absolute biggest honor that you you know, gave me some of your attention and time today. So thank you.