Shownotes
Today’s conversation explores one of the most urgent questions of our time: What would our world look like if our economic system prioritized human and ecological wellbeing instead of endless growth?
I’m joined by Omer Tayyab, researcher and collaborator with economist and author Jason Hickel (Less Is More). Omer works at the intersection of economic theory, political ecology, and democratic reform — with a special focus on degrowth, post-growth futures, and how societies can thrive within planetary boundaries.
We met at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, where he’s currently based, and this episode turned into an expansive, energizing exploration of how we might redesign the systems that shape our daily lives — from work and wealth to democracy, technology, and community resilience.
If you're curious about how to build a world that actually works for people and planet, this one’s for you.
We cover:
What Degrowth Actually Means
- Why “degrowth” is not austerity or “living with less”—but a pathway toward more wellbeing, more leisure, more connection, and more equity.
- How our current growth-driven system is structurally incompatible with ecological stability.
Why “Less Is More” Changed Our Understanding of Economics
- The key insights from Jason Hickel’s book and why it resonated so deeply.
- How capitalism’s central goal—maximizing profit rather than wellbeing—creates ecological overshoot and social harm.
Rethinking Work and Productivity
- Why the modern economy forces us to produce things nobody needs, simply to keep money circulating.
- Alternatives that emphasize public services, care work, and meaningful contribution.
COVID as a Case Study in System Fragility
- How the pandemic revealed the brittleness of global supply chains.
- The risk of collective amnesia now that we’re “moving on” without actually solving the underlying vulnerabilities.
Democracy, Polarization, and System Incentives
- Why many democracies behave like competitive reality shows—pitting groups against each other for votes.
- How democratic structures might be redesigned to emphasize deliberation, cooperation, and long-term thinking.
Technology: Problem, Solution, or Both?
- Why efficiency alone cannot solve ecological collapse (“Jevons paradox”).
- Where technology does help—and where it simply accelerates throughput.
Imagining a Future that Works
- Why a degrowth society is not about deprivation, but about liberation from unnecessary work, debt, and consumption.
- How communities across the world are piloting post-growth models right now.
Resources
Less Is More: How Degrowth Will Save the World, by Jason Hickel
The Divide: Global Inequality from Conquest to Free Markets, by Jason Hickel
Thinking in Systems: A Primer, by Donella Meadows
"Degrowth: a new logic for the global economy," by Omer Tayyab, Jason Hickel et al in the British Medical Journal
"US and EU sanctions have killed 38 million people since 1970" - Omer Tayyab article on Al Jazeera
Routledge Handbook of Degrowth (Chapter 10 is about Greece)Today’s conversation explores one of the most urgent questions of our time: What would our world look like if our economic system prioritized human and ecological wellbeing instead of endless growth?
I’m joined by Omer Tayyab, researcher and collaborator with economist and author Jason Hickel (Less Is More). Omer works at the intersection of economic theory, political ecology, and democratic reform — with a special focus on degrowth, post-growth futures, and how societies can thrive within planetary boundaries.
We met at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, where he’s currently based, and this episode turned into an expansive, energizing exploration of how we might redesign the systems that shape our daily lives — from work and wealth to democracy, technology, and community resilience.
If you're curious about how to build a world that actually works for people and planet, this one’s for you.
We cover:
What Degrowth Actually Means
- Why “degrowth” is not austerity or “living with less”—but a pathway toward more wellbeing, more leisure, more connection, and more equity.
- How our current growth-driven system is structurally incompatible with ecological stability.
Why “Less Is More” Changed Our Understanding of Economics
- The key insights from Jason Hickel’s book and why it resonated so deeply.
- How capitalism’s central goal—maximizing profit rather than wellbeing—creates ecological overshoot and social harm.
Rethinking Work and Productivity
- Why the modern economy forces us to produce things nobody needs, simply to keep money circulating.
- Alternatives that emphasize public services, care work, and meaningful contribution.
COVID as a Case Study in System Fragility
- How the pandemic revealed the brittleness of global supply chains.
- The risk of collective amnesia now that we’re “moving on” without actually solving the underlying vulnerabilities.
Democracy, Polarization, and System Incentives
- Why many democracies behave like competitive reality shows—pitting groups against each other for votes.
- How democratic structures might be redesigned to emphasize deliberation, cooperation, and long-term thinking.
Technology: Problem, Solution, or Both?
- Why efficiency alone cannot solve ecological collapse (“Jevons paradox”).
- Where technology does help—and where it simply accelerates throughput.
Imagining a Future that Works
- Why a degrowth society is not about deprivation, but about liberation from unnecessary work, debt, and consumption.
- How communities across the world are piloting post-growth models right now.
Resources
Less Is More: How Degrowth Will Save the World, by Jason Hickel
The Divide: Global Inequality from Conquest to Free Markets, by Jason Hickel
Thinking in Systems: A Primer, by Donella Meadows
"US and EU sanctions have killed 38 million people since 1970" - Omer Tayyab article on Al Jazeera
Transcripts
Howie: omer Tayyab welcome to the Plant Yourself Podcast.
Omer: Uh, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.
our hospitality. Here we are [:Omer: Uh, the, uh, university at the Barcelona. Okay,
Howie: great. [:Omer: And, uh, the Institute, uh, we are at this specific institute within the university.
, the CNC Techno Technology, [: ar a little bit about. About [: d, my name is Omar. Um, I am [: f Ontario, the two provinces [: entually, you know, uh, long [: when I decided to move. Uh, [: mainstreams of my work is to [:Speaker 3: Okay. So, um, a lot to define for, for my listeners.
for, to define for me and I, [:Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
f concepts because I grew up [:Right. What, what, what do those mean?
Omer: Yeah, [: bout countries like Britain, [: rectly colonized, but uh, it [: ut, uh, uh, an international [: h, top, uh, person, the head [: which are economically more [: orld Reserve currency is the [:Speaker 3: Okay. And it's not exactly North South was pretty close. Right. Yeah,
i. It's more like, uh, yeah, [: ctual geography like 'cause. [: Global South, it was always [: now, that there, there is a, [:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There's larger forces.
Omer: Exactly. Exactly.
I wrote down that, uh, are, [: [:Speaker 4: Right.
word that is sort of central [:Omer: right?
t, where does growth in this [: o I'm gonna. Start with one, [: ommunity. There is this like [: at least mainly centered on [: d, right? So now we are only [: capitalism, this is the key [: r capitalism, the primacy of [:Howie: Okay.
: [: ht. They would still need to [: ist in these sort of smaller [: er. There would be a, uh, a, [: h the people, right? Because [: tever happened, whatever you [: a. So, so, so profit. Became [: , where, you know, the, the, [: Mm-hmm. And that capitalism [:Omer: Mm-hmm. Of
Speaker 3: that. Can you kind of explain where capitalism came from, from this model? So,
ouple of things here. Um, so [: At the same time, uh, um, [: Um, it was possible to [: What they found [: still remain in that bottom [: system, you would be bound. [: movement of enclosures, uh, [: , the movement of enclosures [: r labor for their own needs. [:So that was the key difference. Gotcha.
freedom and liberty. Like I [: Right. [: em puts you in a place where [: But think about if you are [: always placed in this, this, [: : Mm-hmm. So, but [: were some of the sort of the [: Omer: Uh, [: the, the, the philosophical, [: stem dynamics. What, what it [: relationships giving, right? [: down to more concrete bits, [: Let's say, [: Now this surplus has to be [: onomy level and you see that [: e distribution, what you can [: he economy level too, right? [: ome kind of growth that will [:Sorry. Yeah.
ler who hires an apprentice? [: that is happening primarily [: he economy that once they're [: tionship, right? So what one [: titive advantage, right? And [: eturn come from? That return [: [: ge currencies. Um, there are [:Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. So, um, there's a, a journalist in the US I follow named Matt Stoller, who write
Omer: Yeah.
letter, I think. Yeah, yeah. [:Speaker 3: monopolies. Yeah. And he's been talking a lot about this idea of number go up.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
at matters for politics, for [:Speaker 4: mm-hmm.
Speaker 3: Is that the stock mar the stock market goes, goes up.
OVID, uh, when, uh, people's [: ech sector, particularly the [: n, not the other way around, [: McDonald's sells hamburgers, [:Right? And when those people need coronary bypasses because of the lead beef, it goes up.
Omer: GDP again goes up. Yeah.
So there was, it was, it was [:Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly.
s still, it's still the best [: rchill. So capitalism is the [:Speaker 4: Right, right.
Speaker 3: Um, so it never occurred to me that there were alternatives.
so starting to read less is [:Speaker 4: right
Speaker 3: trajectory thing.
more kind of like punch that [: with endless growth is that, [: fossil fuels, but even other [: t to be at the technological [: in the US happens is that we [: ns is that because there's a [: orest, you clear out forest. [: [: it, it, it creates this sort [: : right? [: m. I was, I was finding. Um, [: Omer: [:Speaker 3: And the more I read into it, the more it started seeming like eugenics.
Omer: Mm-hmm. It is, A lot of it comes from eugenics. Yes.
ch, which are the people who [:Mm-hmm. Not because of how we're structuring the, our economy. Mm-hmm. What's, what's the response to that?
, uh, my response to that is [: sed to be that we will leave [: ht? So it looks at different [: It uses all, uh, all of this [: ite famous, uh, uh, for, um. [: ative people's work had gone [: of time. We see ourselves in [: more kind to the environment [:Speaker 3: Then you have like historians like, uh, Yuval Noah Harra, who, who does look back, who acknowledges that there were those times.
Mm-hmm. [:Speaker 4: right.
e right, was, you know, that [:Omer: colonize. Yeah.
Hara like, has it, you know, [:Omer: Oh, okay. I didn't that.
he changed his mind around, [: ctual buddies. Yeah. Um, but [:Speaker 4: Right.
. So, is, is this, you know, [: ons more associated, more so [: gain, the question is maybe. [:So perhaps the way the populations were growing at a slower.
te of being versus this like [: y that. Right. Like, I mean, [: we do have studies actually [: um, Matt Kinnar's book, the [: like the, the, the doomsday [: s on mass with international [: f industrial, um. Leadership [: ping pong table instead of a [: a systems perspective right. [: t countries choose their own [: Right. So, uh, degrowth, um, [: Omer: Um, and, and how it [: ? In north, yeah. Yeah, the, [: he global north side because [: duction, right? I think, uh, [: e actually might be increase [: ervices, particularly right? [: like the US and also, um, my [: n areas like, you know, fast [: Because that is [: the idea behind the growth. [: on. Mm-hmm. And he come, the [: guys at the top who decide, [: nger in the world, right? So [: at they do, uh, and and, and [: urplus that we've saved from [: ifferent directions. Um, uh. [: ut to have completely fallen [: [: e sort of hope or direction. [: perialism like that, because [: system, right? Because they [: Saying that we must support [: [: eah, and so it has a chapter [: the researchers try to learn [: that has happened there. So [: d, uh, I think, um. Uh, the, [: So, you know, no [: e ideas you will find in via [: is morning's New York Times. [: , to, to half of half of the [: ters are, they don't realize [: of have, should have gotten [: , it's very hard for, for us [: Howie: Oh. And [: country and we'll make your [: e sort of indebted to the US [: back in, uh, I think it was [: Right. Another country. And, [: g as I can put one in Miami, [: think what we're getting to [: Of course. Of course. Um, [: tle bit, but essentially the [: errified by degrowth. Right, [: on't need a lock on my door, [: ve, then that just frees up. [: r, who don't have the money, [: e find out more, follow you, [: Omer: Okay. [: some, uh, compendium of some [: co-wrote this article on Al [: million people Yes, [:That don't do what we want.
s, there's that article. Um, [: would highly recommend that. [:Howie: Fantastic. Omar, thank you so much for taking the time for, uh, for explaining things so well and for the work you do in the world that gives, gives me hope.
Omer: Thanks. I would thank [:Thanks.
can find the show notes with [: get my pushups back up to a [: a friend of mine has a. Bike [: tarting to have to push them [: ve, and some of them even go [: couple of tournaments coming [: rams, uh, I've been watching [: now and I can just [: until I met the person. Um, [: ps against each other to see [: