Do you ever feel the need to be the leader with all the answers? 

Do you feel the relentless pressure to bow to the barrage of deliverables that are in front of you every day?

Do you wish you could just get some space?

There’s got to be a better way, right?

This episode is gold if you’re looking for a better way to sustain your own and your people’s performance and growth.

James Miller is an executive coach and host of a rural accommodation business. What’s common to both of these roles is the importance of creating the space for others to breathe out, reflect, and get perspective. James is an absolute master at this.

In this episode, we explore:

• How, as corporate leader, James dealt with the pressures of having to conform, and how he found freedom and space to be himself during that period
• Why staying in a job that doesn't serve you can harm your confidence and sense of value.
• Ways to create the balance between ‘delivery’ and ‘discovery’
• How to navigate the liminal space, the space between ‘no longer’ and ‘not yet’, and why it’s a critical part of the process of creating what's next.
• How James has created spaciousness and a sense of unhurriedness in his everyday life, and how that has led to greater creativity, productivity, and fulfillment.
• The courage needed to make decisions that align with your values and contribute to personal growth and why it’s essential for long-term fulfillment.
• How hosting others and creating environments that support personal growth can be transformative for both the host and the guests.
• The power of being present and fully engaged in conversations, creating a space for others to feel heard and valued. 
• Why every day needs to be interesting and different!

You can find James at:

• Website https://www.idlewildbridgetown.com.au/
• LinkedIn

Check out my services and offerings https://www.digbyscott.com/

Subscribe to my newsletter (https://www.digbyscott.com/thoughts#subscribe)

Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/digbyscott/

Welcome to another episode of Dig Deeper with me, Digby Scott. Today, my guest is James Miller. Who's James? Well, James is one of the most interesting people I know. That's not because he's climbed mountains or broken world records, don't think like that is because he's one of the most interested people I know. Because when I ever I'm in, in James's presence, I feel like he's interested in me, you know, he's interested in what I have to say. And I reckon when we're together.

I feel like we've got all the time in the world and create space for people. It's just one of his superpowers. And I reckon in today's world, that's a rare gift. So James works as an executive coach for leaders while at the same time running and hosting with his wife, Jill, barn and a cottage accommodation outside a small town in southwestern Western Australia. And over the years, he's crafted a way of leading his life authentically that I really admire. And I think you as a listener will come to be inspired by too.

His own words, he's fueled by creativity and reinvention. He says he's that the everyday does nothing for him, which I'm super intrigued to learn more about the James. My mate. Welcome to the show.

G'day Digs, thanks for having us on. It's great. Really enjoying this process that we've been going through and talking about coming on. So what a great opportunity. Thank you.

Yeah, it is a great opportunity. I reckon we want to start with this. Every day does nothing for you. I really want you to explain for us. What is that all about?

Well, I think it's about adventure Digs. I love the title of your podcast, the Pioneering Spirit, the emphasis that you're putting on that. And I think that it has a lot to do with that. The everyday, from my point of view, has got to be interesting. It's got to be exciting. It's got to be something that holds your attention. And so if your everyday is something that is fairly rote,

same as yesterday, doesn't seem to hold anything to look forward to in your day or in the coming week, then you ought to go and find that, because that's pretty important. Well, it certainly is for me. And that's why I'm not saying it has to be necessarily for others, but that's what does it for me, is the standard day doesn't do it for me. It's gotta be an interesting day. It's gotta be exciting day. It's gonna be something different about today than yesterday.

and something open to possibility. In other words, I don't know, there's gonna be part of my day that's just gonna come up. I don't know what it's gonna be. And I'm really curious to know what that's gonna be.

So it sounds like a standard day for you might be maybe a frustrating or even terrifying day for other people. Right. With this, what's going to happen today? I love the philosophy. I wonder where that's come from. I'm curious about, you know, was there once upon a time when it was the everyday felt like the everyday for you? Is that where that's come from? Or is it kind of earlier in life, you know, shaping forces from parents, whatever? Where, where do you reckon that attitude comes from?

I think when you're young, you have opportunities to discover, well, hopefully you have opportunities to discover things like time alone, time to go outside and play, time to explore, you know, and not have everything set up in a routine for you in a way that sort of says, well, as soon as you get home from school, when you're young, I've got this booked in and that booked in, and then I've got this and I've got that. And so there's no room to move if...

If you don't have that, I think that can be challenging, but I didn't have that. So I think for me, the opportunity to come home and go, what am I gonna do now? I'm gonna go outside and play. I'm gonna go down and meet up with my mates. And we're just gonna go explore the bush, which we used to do when I was living in Sydney. We lived pretty close to a suburban bush area. So we'd just take off down the creek. We'd be catching tadpoles. We've been building mud dams. We'd get swimming down at Browns Waterhole. We'd do all sorts of stuff and then come back.

at the end of the day, and that was kind of cool. So that was sort of stuff. Next day, you could be riding your bike and you could be heading off to a neighboring suburb or walking on the train line. So I think things like that, that really did help encourage me to kind of think about creating space for exploration and creating a space for amusement and yeah, just seeing what's around the corner and what could interest you.

You know, it's free range kids, isn't it? Right. It's this, which I certainly had that to growing up, interesting enough, right. In the town or the very, very near where you are now living, which is kind of fascinating. There's a, there's a synchronicity that's going on here that, you know, I was brought up on a farm, probably what 10 kilometers from where you're living. And, um, that was my childhood as well. And I reckon that's probably what we saw in each other when we got to know each other years and years ago now.

Yeah.

Yes.

Here he is.

You know, what comes up for me, though, is that was the kid that was James the kid. Right. What about as an adult? Because I think for lots of us, we experience something like what you've described as a child, and then we get into responsible land. We we leave school or we get finished uni and then we have to get a job and all those other things that go on. How was that spirit?

challenged perhaps for you as you went or moved into your kind of career stage of life.

Yeah, it was probably the workplaces pointed that out for me. Like the environment showed me that or didn't show me that. If you're unaware of that spirit necessarily, and then because you've just been living it or you've been experiencing it as you would, then you go into an environment where maybe that's not as readily able to be expressed perhaps, or you find yourself bumping into some walls that are.

more containing for you, that's probably when you start to realize it. I think there's another thing that probably shaped that coming into the more corporate land and maybe just part of growing up as well, whether it's corporate land or not, is I used to kid around a lot as a kid. I would muck around and play up and do all sorts of stuff. I know from the report cards that...

Funny, I can imagine that.

my parents kept and gave back to me and I've read since, you know, and you look at that and you go, yeah, you could, could sit still could benefit from focusing more, you know, um, all this sort of stuff. Uh, you know, you know, there were, that was probably, I think, pretty disappointing for my parents to read a bit. And I remember them sort of saying, particularly my dad sort of saying to me, you know, don't play the fool all your life, you know, don't be, you know, the, the crazy one or the idiot or

Don't act up all the time, you know, try and, you know, get out of that if you can. And so that sort of resonated for me. So I think when I went to the corporate world, that's probably where I thought, well, okay, now's the time to play the grownup. Now's the time to be more mature. And so I did find myself struggling a little bit in losing that sort of free spirit, but I did find some workplaces where I really could let go and be me. So that was cool too. Yeah.

Can I can I just check on that? Like, it sounds like you made a conscious choice to not be the free spirit. Yeah, it was kind of like you went, oh, no, I've got to let that version of me go. And a different version of James has to show up. Yeah. Do you remember? Do you remember what that was like? Like what version of you did show up instead? But tell us a story about, you know, that that.

Yes. Yep. Yeah, certainly did.

that time of choice.

I can't recall a particular workplace that sort of pointed that side of things out in the early days. Like I just thought, well, I don't know anything about workplaces. You grow up, you join an organization and then you'll start working that out. I worked in a corporate environment. So I didn't work in the trades. I wasn't working outside. I worked in banking and finance and you know, they're probably pretty conservative workplaces for a lot of people if you've not worked in one.

And so there was the suit and tie kind of thing, lose the earring when you come to work and all this sort of stuff. And then all things that I did. And so I thought, well, I've got to tie the line because that's what you're supposed to do, isn't it? I mean, this is the grownup time. You finished school, you finished uni, now it's time to cut your hair, wear a tie, do all those things. And so, yeah, I just figured that's what 90% of the world did, knowing that.

That's probably not true, but I figured that's probably where I was headed because I studied business and hell, that's probably what business people do. So yeah, you're right. It was a decision to say, yeah, time to grow up, smarten up, look like and feel like and sound like other people do when you go into the workplaces that sort of kind of expect that.

I find that really interesting because it got me thinking the, what I reckon any organization wants is to blend what I call delivery and discovery, right? So delivery is make stuff happen, deliver whatever you're there to deliver on. Right. And so that requires discipline and structure and process and systems and all that sort of stuff, you know, management. Yet we also need to discover, right. And we need to be able to learn and innovate and explore.

And do all those things that we naturally did as kids, right? And I think what I, what I'm wondering about is the organizations that you, where you felt like you could be freer. You mentioned that earlier on, right? And what it was, what it was like for you in terms of that delivery discovery balance, what was different when you could be a bit more you and, and what were the conditions? I know I'm asking a lot of questions here. What are the.

Yeah.

What are what were the conditions that allowed you to have that freedom? But I assume also just make good stuff happen.

Oh, totally in combination there, Diggs. You're right. A lot of things were built around in the workplace around process and structure and discipline and routine and all those sorts of things. And I don't devalue those things for a moment because I've come to learn that they are really important in providing freedom as well, you know? But as far as expressing me and me doing my best work and then finding an outlet for that and when did that sort of start to surface again? Wasn't until...

I would say I was about 27, I'd say, yeah, I was. I was 27 and I joined an organization here in Perth. So I didn't have any of that when I was living in Sydney. And when I was in Sydney, I was in banking and finance the whole time, relocated to WA in 91. And so, and then when I started working in organization over here in 93, that was when it changed. And what really changed...

you talked about the environment and what was kind of some of the influences around that. I worked with a, probably no surprises here, but I worked for a guy, he was 15 years older than me. And he's certainly been one of the big influences on my ability to do great work, my leadership, how to find that balance between discovery and getting stuff done and then the enjoyment of work and producing really good stuff. So his name was Keith.

Yeah, he was instrumental in, for the first time I felt I was learning and doing good stuff. I, prior to that, sure I was learning, but I was only learning, it only felt like I was learning what someone else needed me to do to do the task that was in front of me. But that was it, like learn this stuff because you have to do it. Otherwise you can't meet your KPIs and that's all that really kind of matters. You know, didn't feel like this is enjoyable learning or I can see the richness in this, or I can see how I'm really making a difference with this work. That was not, none of that stuff was there. So this time.

it was there and it was really about having a leader who was really good at pulling that out of me, about creating space for that. And also, I mean, he did something really quite incredible that I very much adopted in my leadership with people because I thought it was so influential and so important around the discovery thing, Diggs, was he only gave me two thirds of my work.

What does that mean?

So we'd sit down and he goes like, here's what we need to do this year or this quarter or whatever else. Here's the work that lies ahead of us. But that's only two thirds of it. I'm not gonna give you three thirds of the work. I'm just gonna give you two thirds of the work. I want you to go and work out what the other third is. You need to work that out. I can't tell you what that is. So get to know the business, get to know the people that you're working with, get to know your peers, your colleagues, and the clients that you're working with inside the company and find out what the hell is going on. Find out.

what needs doing and when you know that, go and do that.

What was the gift there for you? That's amazing.

I think the gift was probably trusting in me to know, to be able to find out what was necessary and then go and learn and find out how to do that or what needed doing, because there were certainly things that I found out I needed doing, but I didn't necessarily know what to do or how to do it. But then you go and learn that and that was where the learning kind of met.

Yeah.

And what did that, what did it allow to grow in you or to be realized in your own way of leading the Ereken? Giving you that permission, that space to explore, just like going chasing tadpoles, right? You know, what was activated in you do you think?

I think there was a freedom really, a freedom and a liberation to go out and look again, to look around the corner, to ask people questions, to discover, to observe. And sometimes you're observing by watching other people, you're observing because you're hearing themes from lots of conversations with people. Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. I, I think it's such a important message for anyone who's in charge of people and I remember, you know, there's that book that you and I both know called coaching for performance by Sir John Whitmore and he talks about, you know, a manager's job is simple. It's to get results and grow people in coaching as an approach that can achieve both at the same time. And Keith.

He he lived that with you, you know, he allowed you to have the space to grow at the same time, expect you to deliver. And and that that's such an important idea. I love it. I love it. You mentioned the word space and freedom kind of interchangeably as we've been talking about, and I reckon it might be worthwhile just fast forwarding to the present. Tell us where you are right now.

Yeah.

Well, in amongst both of those things, to some degree, Diggs. Yeah, space and freedom. We're located in a small country town in Western Australia, about three and a half hours southwest of Perth. And we have an accommodation business, very small one, where we converted an old, dilapidated shed, barn, and made that into a really, really nice, it's rustic in theme, but it's a really nice.

Hahaha.

It is really nice. Yeah.

There you go. Those two words and, and why that? Because, you know, the story so far is James coming out of the biggest city in Australia, um, moving into corporate land in then, and then coming to Perth and following that path. And now here you are in a little country town in Southwest of Western Australia, um, with space and freedom surrounding you. What's that all about? What, why, why do that?

first things. Yeah.

Yeah, I think like your first question, Dixie, every day doesn't do it for me. I think that's part of the adventure is you start out wherever you are because that's where you were born, grew up or got transported with your parents. And then by the time you start becoming a bit more independent, you start thinking about what you enjoy and what you like and what would sort of set you on fire or float your boat or what have you. I went to...

Ha ha!

I went to college in Bathurst in New South Wales by accident because I didn't get the marks that I expected to get out of the HSC, which is the TEE or the final exams at a year 12. So I ended up going to Bathurst because it was, and Bathurst is a country town in New South Wales. And I think my first three months, I just didn't like it at all. I'm going, what the hell am I doing here? I'm not with my friends. I'm out of the city.

I've got hay fever. I'm just, eyes are running and so is my nose. I think, what am I doing in this place? You know, but you know, within no time, I started to really enjoy the setting, the space, the feeling there. And then the sense of community, I think it was just quite amazing. Not just the college community that I lived in and got educated through, but the town itself, being in and around a really great community there.

Ha ha!

I think opened my eyes up to the possibility of saying, you know, country towns are a great place to be. So I think that's probably where some of the initial thoughts were around the possibility of living in a country environment could be something for me.

I remember when, it wasn't long after we met, you were living in suburban Perth. And I know you enjoyed the beach, you were pretty close to the beach. And then you made the call with the family to move to the hills behind Perth, which for people not familiar with Perth, it's the furthest part from the beach. In a city that has a strong identity with the coast, and you went, no, we're gonna go and move away from there, and we're gonna move into

Um, I guess you could call it a rural suburb of Perth, Darlington. And I remember being flabbergasted by that call because I know you and I both enjoyed surfing and we, we'd spent a bit of time camping near the beach and stuff like that. It's like, how could you do that? Like what's that about? But that helps me understand that there was the spaciousness I think that you were after, and now you've, you've amplified that.

tenfold by going to Bridgetown and living there. You also, there's a sense though, that it's not just about, this is not just for you and Jill, you know, this is, this is for others as well. What's your driver around creating this space that you've got now?

Mm.

Well, the other thing was firstly for our kids, when we moved to the Hills was that kind of freedom that I talked about earlier on for myself, being able to be able to go anywhere, do anything and was really important. We lived on a small block close to the coast in Perth and so the Hills was great. So it was probably getting back to some of the origins for me as a kid and saying, our young kids I'd really love to be able to provide, we would really love to be able to provide.

a place where our kids are known in the suburb. They can walk to school, ride to school, get themselves to footy training, get themselves to cricket practice, whatever it is, and have that freedom just to be out and about. So that was a big driver to getting up to the hills. And the other thing was, well, I love the coast. You still had, for where we lived, you still had to hop in a car or walk and to get to the beach. Whereas in the hills, I was already in the environment. I didn't have to walk to it.

I was in and around my house, my block, I was in the bush around two acres or whatever. So as far as, so the others thing was really, that was about others for the family and for the kids and they're growing up. And now it's about others who come and stay with us. For us, it's about providing that opportunity for people who live a really busy life, live a really hectic day to day for themselves. And that could be just through work, through family, through whatever it might be. And it's about saying,

take some time out for just you or that significant other people in your life, just to come and be, to reconnect with yourself and with others that you care about or that matter to you. So that was the strong driver for this place, was to take some time out for yourself and come and just be, just be.

It's moving from the doing to the being right. And yeah, and I can't help but draw a parallel to. My experience of being with you, as I talked about in introduction, right? So whenever you and I have a conversation, including this one, I feel you're fully present and. That allows me to feel spacious and it allows me to slow down and there's

Very much so.

It is such a gift to be able to do that for someone. So you're creating a physical space at the property, yet there's something about your presence that I think is also a part of the experience of people come there and interact with you and Jill. Yet it doesn't have to be there because the other part of your work is executive coaching and. Tell us a bit about.

How how you're wired in that way, that's the best question. How do you? How do you what's going through your mind when you're coaching someone in terms of what it means to be there in the role that you're in and what you're there to do?

Well, in both instances, I think you're facilitating something, you know, like with the physical space, we're facilitating an opportunity or an environment for people to come and just be, you're creating something special for something, for somebody, and it's very much focused on them. So it's a hosting mindset, I think, Diggs, and that's certainly the kind of approach we have to our accommodation. I know other people have types of accommodation where it's just, you know, pick up, you know, pick up the key somewhere or...

punch a code in and get it. You don't see anyone when you arrive, you don't see anyone when you leave. But we very much want it to be a hosted experience so people get to meet us, we say hello to them, we get to know them as people and make them feel welcome, provide a level of care and concern for their needs, providing necessary modifications for the place, foods, whatever they might need to make them feel really just special and welcome. So there's a hosting orientation and you're facilitating something special. And I think when you're doing coaching work with somebody,

you're hosting a conversation for their benefit, creating an opportunity for them to gain, hopefully really good insights about their circumstances, what they are seeking to achieve or do, overcome. And then finally, work to make progress towards something that's really important and meaningful to them. And...

And I think it's so in both ways, I think you're facilitating something for other people that means something to them and hopefully they'll walk away better or more satisfied or richer for it, you know, richer. I mean, you know, I don't mean that necessarily financially. I mean, just, you know, well-being wise.

I can't help but draw another parallel to the work world. I often make the distinction with the work I'm doing between being the hero and the host. You use the word host there, you know, that you can be a hero leader or you can be a host leader. And they're both they're quite different. And maybe there's a time for both. Yet what I see, I'll be interested in your thoughts about this is I see a lot of hero hat people wearing the hero hat.

As in, I have to have the answers. I have to be the ones being seen to lead the visible sort of need you have there. Whereas the host seems to be. I reckon more powerful in more situations, yet perhaps not as valued because it's not as visible or as tangible, perhaps it's more of a guide on the side sort of role. And.

Mm.

Mmm.

I'm wondering about if you and I both have a look at organization land where a lot of the listeners will be working. What's the challenge that you reckon to shift from hero to host and do we need to make that shift?

I think the challenge for leaders a lot of times is that expectation to be the most, one of the most knowledgeable people in the room. And that can be either in a meeting room of peers or that can be, and particularly I think in meeting rooms of peers. But even from the point of view of the people that they lead, you know, from younger people that are coming through today, there's, you know, we've probably both.

Hmm.

Diggs read a lot about the generations that have come through, typecast as they are in, you know, YZ, whatever it is, and about the importance of mentoring and their need for mentoring and guidance particularly. And so I think that puts an even, can put an even greater pressure on leaders to say, well, this, this crew that are coming through really do need more knowledge. They need more guidance. They need more telling. They need more, you know, directing and everything else. And

Hmm.

And so that can potentially keep you in a space of operating that way. And I don't think that's necessarily a healthy thing because one, it puts an undue pressure on yourself to have to know everything when you clearly don't. And then the other one is doesn't then create the freedom for people to have to explore and learn and feel satisfied for having gone off and worked it out for themselves. And I think that's so, so important if you're gonna feel

a sense of accomplishment as an individual, as a learner, as a worker, as a performer, as to know, hey, I actually got that done myself. I worked it out.

Hmm.

Yeah. I wonder about time in your career, your life, when can you tell us a story about when that idea of perhaps the tension between hero and host for you was there, you know, and it might be might have been a situation where, you know, it was a high performance environment. We all needed to be heroes or, you know, and being anything else wasn't good enough. I'm just wondering if there's a time for you that

You went that was tested that idea because I know as your default seems to be very much host as a person. And I'm wondering whether there was a there's a time of challenge for you around that.

Yeah, there has been this, there's been two organizations I worked in and I think one I self-ejected out of because it was very much like that. I worked in a firm and it was very much about what you knew. It wasn't as much about the opportunity to facilitate exploration of others' thinking and others' knowledge to draw the answers out. It was kind of like, just give us the answer.

Love it.

We're paying you to know these things, you know?

What was that like being in that place?

Oh, look, it was for some things, it was okay, because you kind of you get it and think, well, they're hiring me for my experience and my knowledge, and I can spit that stuff out. And that's fine. And to that extent, you go, yeah, well, there's some, something to that. Uh, the other bit was I'm going, uh, at what point did, did the, did some of these folks stop thinking about learning, you know, why aren't they interested in, and it's like, no, I've got the time for that. So that just give me the answer sort of thing. And excuse me. It's just, that was sort of a bit.

confronting going really if you stop thinking and learning. And that's not true of everyone I was dealing with in that organization, but it seemed to be, really an efficiency speed kind of thing. We haven't got time for this, just crack on with it. So yeah.

You mentioned you'd self-ejected. Like how long from when you started, did you realize, yeah, I might need to find the ejection button here.

Uhhh...

six months in, I think, and look to the credit of the leaders I was working for, one of the leaders anyway, he tried to keep me on and offered to relocate me and provide me with more meaningful work remotely, but the local leaders I was working with weren't that interested in that. So in the end, I thought, well, I don't wanna get caught up in tensions there, it's just better to say what this organization needs is not me, and that's fine.

Ah, okay.

and what I need is something else too. So go and go and do something. There's a better fit around. So yeah.

I admire that you knew what you needed is interesting, right? Because, uh, you and I had a business together back in Perth quite a few years ago, and I relocated to New Zealand after we wrapped that up and I joined one of those big consulting firms, which is actually interesting enough where I started my career and, uh, in a similar one of those, I thought, Oh, you know, I know how these places work, you know, these big four organizations and it had been

a good 10 years between drinks. And I went in and you mentioned six months. I reckon I knew within two weeks that it wasn't the place for me, but I couldn't put my finger on it. It was I just thought there is no sense of satisfaction that I'm deriving here. You know, it's just it's a head game. And I remember one a friend of mine said to me, who knows me quite well, I called him after two or three weeks.

Yeah, well.

And he goes, you know what you're missing? You love to see the light shine in people's eyes. And these folks aren't here to do that. They're here to make a bunch of money and write a whole bunch of reports. And that was this realization that I needed someone else to point out to me that I was missing something that was fundamental to my makeup. And, you know, what I like about what your story says is that you tapped into that. You went, you know what? This is missing for me, so I'm going to move on.

Mm.

Mm.

And I wonder about how that served you since, you know, this idea of exercising a muscle, as in making a decision, because there's a values misalignment, or it's just it's not giving you what you need to contribute at your best. How that served you, because I'll tell you my story. But so for me, that was even though I was only there, I stayed four months.

Hmm.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

because it was over the Christmas period and, you know, there was there wasn't going to be a lot of work around over the summer holidays here. And so I thought I'll stay. I don't know many people around, so I don't have a network to jump into another job. I stayed four months and nearly killed me. And metaphorically, but the. It also put a massive dent in my confidence that, you know, I could add value. Um, and it then.

That was compounded by the fact that after I left, the job that I thought I was going to evaporated and so I didn't work for about three months. So my confidence didn't take, it wasn't helped at all. Yet, I reckon it was still the right call because

What helped you to bounce back from that DC? That's quite a lot to manage in one go. You relocated countries, started a new job, realized quickly that it wasn't for you, hung around for four months, had something else lined up, that fell through. That's a lot in a fairly short period of time. What helped you sort of rebound from that?

Yes.

Yeah.

Hmm. What? I reckon what helped me was I had a metaphor, keep turning over the stones, which is this kind of you imagine walking along a stony beach. I'm just picking up a stone, go, what's under that one? And enjoy the process of turning over the stones just to see. And the stones are looking for opportunities, right? And having lots of coffees and treating the journey or the work.

as a job, the work of finding a new job as a job. Yet at the same time, reflecting on what was missing for me in that environment, you know, how you can only appreciate the light by having the dark. To me, that was, it was really helpful to kind of go down that alleyway, that dark alleyway in that firm to realize what I was actually about. And so to me, the gift was from that tough experience was the

Ah, I need work that where I can see the light shine in other people's eyes because of something that we're doing. So that's a long story. Thanks for asking the question. There's a long story which I was originally asking you. How did that that. Experience serve you and how does that. What did it reinforce for you as a leader, as someone who shows up in service of others?

Mm-hmm. Yep.

What it did for me, Diggs, was just really clear was, I wasn't gonna do anything that wasn't right for me anymore. It was just clearly like, if I'm looking for an opportunity, I'm putting it up front and center. If you want to get the best out of me, this is what you'll get. If I, this is the kind of environment, I just was able to express it more clearly, ask for it when I was applying for work or seeking opportunities, describe it, talk about my best self in that environment.

to the extent I could and to assert for it. So that there was no ifs, buts, or maybes, or beg your pardons about it. It's just saying, well, this is me. And if you want me, this is how you'll get me and this is what I'll be like. And yeah, so whatever masks or facades you might've been having or wearing or showing to others in circumstances in order to get an opportunity to do something, I don't know, whatever. But.

Mm.

Nevermind all that stuff, I was just not into, that's gone, it's just, here it is.

You asked me the question, what, who helped you or what helped you, what, what helped you through that process of, of dropping the facade.

When you realize, like you said, you gotta have the light, the dark to see the light or to experience it. I think once you've had a few experiences where you are this sort of person that you are and then you find yourself contained by the environments that you go, oh, I'm bumping into these walls, this isn't me. You kind of go, okay, I don't like that experience. Oh, bang, I've had another one of those experiences. You start to realize and you're going, well, I'm a slow learner here. Why do I keep doing this to myself?

stop doing this to yourself. It's not helping you, it's not helping anybody else. Why do it? So you go, okay, enough's enough. Go do the thing that you really wanna do and discover what that is because you still don't know exactly what that is. You're still working that out, but that's okay. It's more like this and less like that. And so you go, great, I'm gonna do some of the more that looks like this. And I think that's how you and I came together.

And I wonder for both of us whether there is a. The space that was created as a result of deciding no, no more is a critical part of the process of what for what's next, right? I call it the liminal space, you know, that space between no longer and not yet. And, you know, I'm wondering whether part of what you're offering in Bridgetown is the liminal space for people, you know, that perhaps aren't.

They're in a space where it is relentless and it's not bringing out their best version of them as leaders. And you have people who come and stay. I'm wondering what you observe when people get a bit of space. What happens for them?

Oh, it's, we, we talk about it so regularly, Diggs, Jill and I, when people arrive, often they're like minimal conversation when they, when you greet them, cause we always greet our guests and they turn up and say hi, how are you going? And they're sort of somewhat chattier than others, but in the main that the conversation is fairly like, oh, is that the barn over there? Is that, how do we get down to the cottage? It's fairly high, you know, yes, the drive down to Perth was whatever, or a trip from wherever was whatever. So yeah, it's, it's pretty.

Grunt.

pretty short and sweet and people are pretty keen just to go and unpack and settle in, right? And then they'll be on a walk around the property or around the neighborhood and they'll stop and have a chat and then they'll wanna know more about something and then the conversation continues. You may bump into them, you may not, but then when they leave and we say goodbye, they are just so different when they go.

How so? What's the... what do you notice? What do you see?

Oh, they're far chattier, friendlier, want to tell you about what they've been up to, more curious about the town and about what they've seen and done. And they just seem like the weights dropped off them. And they, yeah, you could just see, well, for us, that's really rewarding. You go, that's what we wanted to see in people when they came as a result of staying, their left feeling like that. So that's really rewarding when you see that. But that's what we notice. That's what we notice.

I can't help but think that what Keith, your mentor, your boss, your boss did for you was in some ways a similar version of what you're doing for other people. It's just that the difference is with Keith, you were doing it at work. Whereas what you're offering there is you've got to get away from work and busy life to experience it. And I wonder how we can create a bit more of that spaciousness.

Yeah.

Yes.

in the everyday, even though the everyday does nothing for you. You know, how do we how do we create that? And just to build on that. I you strike me as someone. I talk a lot about being unhurried and you strike me as someone who lives unhurried, yet you're also incredibly productive. And I'm wondering, how do we take that unhurried, spacious way of being?

Yes.

And how do we create environments in our day to day that allow us to be a bit more unhurried, a little bit more spacious? What would you say are the practical ways to do that?

Um, yeah, I really liked the way you've been building on this concept for some time now, Diggs, with the unhurried way of being. Yeah, I've been unhurried about it for sure. But that's, I think that's, that's part of the secret is, is to have a long-term, to have a long-term perspective or have a long-term view has certainly helped me and in my, in my working career, once I got clear about, you know, that was to say, I want to be able to build my knowledge and experience and it,

I've been unhurried about it.

It was actually a very similar mantra that you talked about with John Whitmore's coaching book. Mine was very much with the leaders that I was working with and the people that I worked with was, I had sort of two things, it was grow your people's capability and have them performing to the plan. That was the two things that I, what were my things that were in my head. So obviously in...

us.

by virtue of that statement, there is a plan to be followed or to be working towards. But you're growing to the end. So that they knew that and I knew that it was always like my goals for them was am I growing your capability and are you working according to the plan? And I'd always be asking myself the question, the third question, which was, and how would I know that? So I was constantly on the lookout for how am I growing my people, their capability and

Ha ha.

Ha.

how would I know that they're working to the plan and progressing that and achieving? So anything I did was really built around that. And interesting enough, that was something I really only became conscious of creating as a mantra and working towards. Well, I might've been doing it sort of unknowingly, not labeling it that way, if you know what I mean. But I start, I remember certainly labeling that in about 2014 when I started taking on.

a more senior role with some more senior reports who also had reports reporting to them. You know, I was in it, I was probably in, yeah, I was in my first, second general management role. So that was, that really gave me some long-term view, you know, something to strive for, to saying you've got to have a long-term plan and you've got to have people that you're growing for the long-term. And I think that then took the daily unhurried, the hurriedness away, you know, like it's okay.

Yeah.

We've got stuff to do today and it'll be there tomorrow. And there'll be some stuff that'll be still there in a month and some stuff that you still got to do in six months, but you're working towards something long-term.

That's great. All right. It reminds me of a conversation I had yesterday with my practice manager. And we're talking about all the niggles and speed bumps. I call them in the day to day. And she's relatively new to the practice and she's saying, Oh geez, you know, this is when you, you know, when you come into a job and there's kind of what's marketed as the job and then there's what the reality is, it is never going to be a perfect overlap, right? And she's like, Oh, wow. This is.

Mm-hmm.

What's real?

You know, there's a lot going on. And I said, yeah, and let's have a conversation about the long game. And it was quite amazing how both of our energy shifted as and lifted as we focused on the longer game. And you could see her smiling more. And I felt lighter and we felt the other way would be we were more creative.

Yes.

Um, right. And less reactive because we focused on, well, where do we want to be in a year's time and two years time, as opposed to how do we deal with all this stuff in front of us today? And I know it's a bit like, you know, maybe the analogy is hurdlers, right? You know, hurdling race. It's like, yeah, the hurdles, you've got to be skilled to jump over them, but really you're focused on the end, the end of the track, right? That's where you want to put your focus. And.

You know, I know as when I used to do competitive windsurfing, um, the big ocean races and we were out, um, you know, quite a few kilometers out to sea with his rolling swells and you're going flat out, you know, you're absolutely belting along. If I was to focus on all the chop and waves right in front of me, I would have come last every time. And what you need to do is focus on the horizon and just focus on what's ahead. And yet.

It's that, isn't it? That lifting, that creating, that breathing out, you know, it comes from the longer term, having the long game in mind.

Imagine someone sitting down to you and as you say, you start a job and gives you a task list. You go, I've got to prove myself. I've got to show that I'm busy. I've got to do these tasks today. It brings you down to the immediacy. And if you judge yourself by the things that you ticked off in the day, versus stepping back and going, what I really need to achieve, the outcome we're looking for, the thing that we want to be able to have as a result is this. You can step back and go, okay, well there's many ways we can get there. There's a number of ways we haven't worked out yet.

There's other people we still need to talk to, you know, and you go, okay, I can breathe in that. I can then give myself and others permission to work that out rather than saying, I've got to demonstrate my value by the task list that I'm doing today and tick, sort of stuff. And that just brings you right down into the immediacy. That puts pressure on you. That puts, that just limits, I think it limits you. And I think the other one Digs.

just going back to your earlier question about the environment thing was, I don't know what made me think of that, maybe just the walls, jumping in the walls. I worked in one organization where, talk about the sense of space and freedom to work. I had, I worked in what was, what I used to refer to as the shoe box. So I worked inside an organization and where I sat was within the, it was in like in the middle of the building. So I had no window at all. There was a door and, you know, four walls.

there was not one window in the room. And I could not see out to anything, not even out into a corridor or another office. And I remember thinking, I cannot think in a box. I cannot think in a box, you know? So whenever I, if I needed to do some like rote stuff or not, you know, just process, okay, fine, be in there and process away. But when it came to having to do the creative work,

stuff. It was like I got out of there and I went out and I went and found somewhere with an outlook, with a vista, with a something that you could contemplate that freed your mind to be able to explore because it wasn't going to happen in a box.

I love it.

Get an isn't that so powerful? You were literally in a box. And it reminds me of Austin Cleon, who's written a couple of more, a few books now. And one's called Steal Like an Artist. And the other one is another one called Share Your Work. I think it was a show your work, something like that. I put in the show notes. He he's quite a creative guy, but he also has to deliver stuff. He's an author. Right. And he has two workspaces at home.

That's terrible.

He has an analog workspace and a digital workspace and his analog workspace is for creative work where he, and I think they're in the same room. They're just different parts of the room. There's no computers. It's a, I think it's a coffee table with lots of colored pens and paper and also maybe play dough and stuff like that. And then another part of the room, he's got his computers, his laptops and

Yeah.

screens and recording equipment or whatever else he needs to do there. But he deliberately shifts spaces depending on the nature of the work. And it reminds me also of Paul Graham who started Y Combinator, you know, one of those incubators in Silicon Valley. And he talks about two types of time. He talks about maker time and manager time. And maker time is the first of Austin Kleon's workspaces where you're making something. And manager time is the admin time.

And you want to divide up your days and your weeks, and perhaps even your months, into maker time and manager time. And with knowledge workers and people that do what I do and managers in most organizations are going to be in that space where they have some discretion over their time. So it's that deliberateness like you talk about. Get out of the box. I did it this morning. I did a bunch of emails. Then I went down to a cafe for a couple of hours and did a bunch of researching and thinking because it was more maker time for me.

Nice.

you know, got out of my own box. Yeah.

Nice.

Creativity is, I don't know, really how much it's sort of lauded Digs. I mean, what would be the impact for you if that was curtailed in your everyday life and work, if creativity was kind of removed?

What a lovely question. There's a question from anyone listening. And I'm buying myself some time to answer it. Oh, the impact would be a shrinking of spirit and a shrinking of a sense of contribution for the work I do. You know, your creativity, innovation, discovery, all of those fit in the same bucket for me. And if we're not.

honoring that as part of being human and, and not just human outside of work. I think human at work, right. Yeah. That it's an essential part of what it means to be human and what it means to be a contributor is to bring newness difference. And as you say, not the everyday. Yeah. It's a lovely question.

And so that's, what do you find that does for the people that you serve and that you help Digs? Like I know that you run fantastic group-based experiences for people and particularly with things like change makers and others, how does that show up there?

People, say to me.

What we pay you for Digby is to fresh thinking and provocation. So, because we're not getting, we can't create enough of that for ourselves. We need an external agent or an external environment, which I suspect is what you're providing as well, mate, to provide that discovery opportunity. And I see that as a large part of my job. And I

Hmm.

I think in some ways you're creating space as well as being the person you are that does the same thing. And it just speaks to me as though, how do we have more people in the world who can play that role more often for themselves and for others? So I think, yeah, what I do is very much that. And creating an environment where people can do it with and for each other is

Hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

When people turn up to changemakers, they'll often say, this is a sanctuary. This is my this is my mind's bath for the day, you know, and and, you know, that's really what it is. And my ideal is actually to be the host as opposed to be the hero provocateur, you know, to be the host of a provocative environment, but not necessarily the one who's doing all the prodding myself. You know, yeah, it's a lovely question.

Ha ha.

Mmm.

Yes.

I'm curious about a question for you, mate, is you are an incredibly curious person in the spirit of discovery and creativity, et cetera. What, what is it that keeps you curious?

Hmm. Well, that's a, that's a, that's a stumper, Diggs. That's a stumping question. What keeps me curious? I think it's a desire to learn something new or work something out, try something you haven't tried before kind of thing. And,

someone made the point out the observation about where we live now, which is, you know, it's a farm lot, it's 15 acres, it's not that big, but it's enough work there that you have to do a fair bit to maintain the property. And there's, and that stuff I didn't really know much about initially until I moved down here. So like, I'm going, oh, this is gonna be interesting. And someone pointed out to me, said, you've got a lifetime of projects here. And I went, yeah, I kind of like that. So in the sense that I probably will never be bored,

but I don't consider myself a restless person. I don't consider myself a person who doesn't create space for just being, but I do enjoy learning and I do enjoy having things to look forward to learning about or having to work out. So, and it could be anything from, how do we create a really cool place for people just to relax and be, you know, what's that cottage gonna look like? What's it gonna be inside? What's the design gonna be? What furniture will you have? What will the driveway look like? There's that sort of stuff, right? And then there's...

Yeah.

Then there's the whole thing of, how do you fence a boundary that keeps sheep in properly? Like, I don't know, I have to learn that stuff, you know? What equipment do you have for that?

Yeah, I have a word for you or a phrase for you. I think you're curiously practical. So you're not curious for the sake of being curious. You wanna apply whatever learning you take from a problem or a challenge. You wanna take that and make it something that's real and usable and for yourself or for other people, right? Curiously practical, I reckon you are.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good description dig. So I don't think I've heard that before. That's a good one to coin. You put your trademark next to that one. Yeah, yeah, made it. But that's very true. If I can't, if I can't, it's not a navel gazing exercise for me, it's not like I'm contemplating it. I wanna be able to express it somehow and do something with it. Yeah, very much that.

You can take that one. Put it on your LinkedIn profile on your website.

Having said that, you also remember a book you shared years ago that you were reading, which I never managed to finish myself called something like, what was it, something called not constellations of philosophy, it was this philosophy book. Can you remember the name of it?

Yep.

Yes, by a French, gosh, she's a French philosopher now. I'm struggling to remember. There was one called the unconscious civilization and the other one, yeah, there was a couple by this author, yeah. Yeah, wasn't that big.

French guy.

Yes, there was a couple, whatever it is, and we'll try and dig it out. I'm sure I've used a doorstop somewhere. But there was this depth to you that, you know, there's the practical element. There's a curious element. Then there's also the deep thinker. And that's not a bad combo to have. As we go on. On equilibrium.

Yeah, look, I do remember a Digs was called on equilibrium. Yep, and it looked at the virtues of living a good life. And so I think I took a lot of things out of that. But again, for me, the virtues were kind of meaningless unless you're willing to apply them.

There's your practical bit, right? Aristotle talked about practical wisdom, right? And I think that's kind of how you show up every day. I have one last question for you, which is, I love to ask every guest this question, is what have you learned through our conversation?

I've learned about a couple of few things. One is I think our common interest in the notion of hosting and how that shows up in different ways, but like that can be in a workplace. So for example, how you might host others to do great work or host their ability to learn, but then personally how that shows up in your vocation and how it shows up in ours with our guests. The other thing I've learned,

Digs is through your questions, which is the thing that you're really great at asking. You're always a great question asker. Is you've kind of surfaced the connection between a lot of things in my journey as a person, as a leader, as a person living a fulfilled life in the Southwest of WA. You've surfaced some of the connections about how some of those things have come to be, how I've come to be or how I've expressed me.

either in a workplace setting or in my current vocation setting as well. So thank you for that. That's been really great. I haven't necessarily joined some of those dots in the past, but you've been able to shine a light on some of those links.

Happy to be of service and happy to host you, mate, as well. Host you in this conversation. That's lovely. If people happen to find themselves in the Southwest of Western Australia or wanting to go there, because it is a beautiful part of the world, it's where I'm from and I know it deeply. How could they find you?

Good one.

Well, we're called Idlewild Bridgetown. That's I-D-L-E-W-I-L-D, Bridgetown. We've got a website by that name and you can just find us that way. We're on the stone's throw away from lots of other great places in the Southwest. You know, we're sort of an hour from Busselton, Margaret River, Dunsborough, lots of other places that are cool down here too. So it's always great to come and explore the inland as well as the coast. So we'd welcome anyone who'd like to come down and check us out.

And anyone who's been listening to this will get a sense of what you can experience when you hang out with James and his wife, Jill, incredible hosts. And I love the vision you have. And I've loved this conversation, mate. Thank you so much. And we'll see you soon.

No worries. Thanks, Digs. Take care.

Take care.