ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Today’s guest are Kate Lowe Founder and Director and Alex Remington, Director of Partnerships at Both Barrels.

In our conversation Kate and Alex offer valuable insights into how their passions and purpose of Family, Relationships, Integrity and Never Giving Up are woven into the fabric of their lives and leadership.

Why clients choose Both Barrels:

• Staying calm no matter what the situation;
• Keeping the objective in mind when there are setbacks - and ability to pivot;
• Building big trusting relationships 

Kate and Alex's Three Key Encouragements to Leaders: 

1. Trust and guide your team
2. Surround yourself with good people
3. Never be afraid to admit you don’t know something or when you are wrong

About Kate and Alex:

KATE LOWE:

Kate Lowe is a trusted PR and communications strategist with over 15 years of experience advising senior executives on how to harness sport as a platform to shape personal and organisational narratives.

Kate specialises in integrating into businesses to build a deep understanding of their goals, refining complex messaging into clear, impactful communications. Steering clients through the fast-moving world of sport and guiding C-suite leaders in navigating complex media landscapes to protect and enhance brand value.

Her established relationships across global sports and sports business media enable close collaboration in crafting messaging that achieves alignment and influence.

Her deep understanding of the business and cultural dynamics of sport enables her to build collaborative stakeholder relationships and deliver strategic communications solutions that build reputations and unlock commercial and reputational growth.

ALEX REMINGTON:

Alex Remington is a strategic partnership leader with over 18 years of experience driving transformative collaborations that position sport as a catalyst for business growth and cultural relevance.

A Harvard Business School alumnus, he combines expertise across sport, entertainment, media, and business, applying data and insights to guide commercial decisions and deliver sustainable results.

At Manchester United, Alex pioneered “performance partnerships,” redefining sponsorships as performance-driven collaborations integrating elite technology from sponsor brands into sporting operations.

He specialises in designing integrated strategies that align sporting operations with business objectives, building partnerships that deliver measurable impact, unlock new revenue streams, and create lasting competitive advantage for rights holders and brands.

To connect, follow and find out more about Both Barrels, and Kate and Alex:

LinkedIn: Both Barrels

Website: bothbarrels.co.uk

Instagram: @bothbarrelspr

To listen to other Leaders in Conversation with me Anni Townend go to my website, www.annitownend.com; to listen to Finding Your Collaborative Edge™  with Lucy Kidd and I, to do go our website www.Collaboration.Equation.

A big thank you to SHMOGUS Media for the wonderful production and marketing of the podcast with Louisa Penny, from Penny Writing.

To contact me Anni Townend do email me on anni@annitownend.com visit my website, subscribe to my newsletter and follow me on LinkedIn.  

I look forward to connecting with you, thank you for listening.

Hello and welcome to Leaders in Conversation with me, Annie Townend, podcaster and partner to executives, Leaders and their teams, co founder of Collaboration Equation and of the podcast Finding your collaborative Edge with Lucy Kidd.

Leaders in Conversation is the podcast in which leaders weave together the threads of their life and leadership stories, the people, places and experiences that have shaped them, their values, beliefs, passions and purpose to encourage and inspire you to be even more confident and courageous in your leadership. If you're not already, please do subscribe to the podcast review and share it. Thank you.

Today's guests are Kate Lowe, Founder and Director, and Alex Remington, Director of Partnerships at Both Barrels. And the title of our conversation is Collaborations, Partnerships and Passion. A Journey.

In our conversation, Kate and Alex offer valuable insights into how their passions and purpose of family, relationships, integrity and never giving up are woven into the fabric of their lives and leadership. I had the joy of meeting Kate and Alex through my daughter Fern, and suggested to Kate that she and Alex might like to be guests on my podcast.

And the response was oh no, not yet. And recommended somebody else, the lovely Claire Bowden Hughes.

So I was absolutely delighted when I got an email from Kate and Alex saying we are ready and welcome Kate and Alex. I'm so glad and was so happy to receive your email saying that you you are ready.

Thank you. Thanks Annie. That's a lovely introduction.

I think at the time there was a few plates spinning and we weren't quite ready to tell our story and then eventually what we'll be talking about. We set up Both Barrels, our company and then thought it's the time to share our story with you.

I'm thrilled you're sharing your story today, Alex. So you weren't ready either, were you, back then?

We've known each other for a few years now, Annie, and I've always found conversations with you really easy. It was always whenever we were ready as a business was when I was going to be ready.

Like Kate said, we dive straight in at the deep end with setting up the business and it was all a go right at the start and we like to be busy and that's how we operate.

We've always operated so we just wanted to wait for a time when we've got a year in which we've now just over the year mark and then have a conversation with you and for.

Listeners who don't know, tell us to start with what is Both Barrels?

So Both Barrels is a PR and sponsorship management consultancy that was set up by Alex and myself. So we previously both worked at Manchester United. That's where we met and where our kind of journey started. But we were friends for a very long time.

We probably should mention actually that Alex and I are husband and wife, which we'll get onto that story as well later on.

We met almost 15 years ago now when we started working at Manchester United, but we only became a couple four years ago and then we set up both barrels, like Alex said.

Just over a year ago, we took the decision to take the leap and set up our own agency, which was daunting to start with, but I think, as you mentioned in our intro, family is very important to us and we've got three boys between us, so they're age 12, 10 and nine.

Although we've had such an incredible experience working at United, it did involve a lot of travel, a lot of long hours, a lot of hard work and our focus had always been on the work. Obviously you are a parent first and foremost, but it did take you away across the summer.

There was lots of things that we couldn't do and we just felt like that we'd got that time in our life now where we could dedicate a little bit more to them. Although our eldest son, when we broke the news that we were leaving United, he said, oh, does that mean I can't go to the game anymore?

So, yeah, it was, congratulations, Mum. Congratulations, Alex. That was his first instincts on where's his next shirt coming from? Do we still get discount?

I love that. And huge congratulations on being a year in. What a journey you've had.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about that journey, but also the journey that brought you together when you met 15 years ago and then to leaving Manchester United and setting up both barrels. Alex, how did you come upon the name Both Barrels Together?

Yeah, like Kate said, we both operated in different areas of the business at the club and we were operating in sports and our main goal was focusing on delivering objectives and staying focused on a long term target and putting everything into delivering against those targets. So that's within our DNA in terms of how we approach work, how we approach life, keep an eye on the target and keep focused.

And then because it was Kate's side, which is the communication side, and my side, which is traditionally the partnerships and sponsorship side, was two areas. Let's bring them together, both barrels.

And it just reflects in our approach to our effort, our determination, which we'll speak about, never giving up, giving it everything towards achieving the targets and achieving the goals that you set out to achieve.

And it just felt like something that matched our personalities and our approach to work, focusing on targets, putting all our effort in, all our dedication and all our experience, and bringing those two worlds of sponsorship and partnerships and PR and communications together into one offering. Yeah, it happened quite organically, didn't it, Kate?

Yeah, it was just something that came to us and said, that's a great name, I like it.

Our tagline's hitting the target and we've been really lucky that everyone that we've gone out to with it has loved the name and it's really lasted and it seems to really stick with people. Yeah, it was just a nice name to have.

But like Alex said, I think it really does demonstrate who we are in terms of that laser focused determination to deliver and we do give everything our all and that's the way that we've been brought up, it's the way that we've been taught to work through our careers and that's what we bring to our clients.

Wonderful.

I know that family is at the heart of all that you do, both in the family you've created, but also in work as well, in both barrels and how you work with people who are the people that have had the biggest impact on you and being so important to you in your journey.

Yeah, like we said, we've worked at Manchester United and when I was young, I used to design the shirts, post them through the letterbox at Old Trafford, send birthday cards to the players, write suggested transfers and everything, and send them to Alex Ferguson when I was a really young kid. Again, as many people are just inspired by sport. When I was young, I really just loved everything to do with Manchester United.

I first started watching football the first year of the Premier League, when they won the league, and it just went on from there. So then through my kind of educational journey and going through school and college, you always get that question, don't you?

What do you want to be when you grow up? And really at the heart of it, I wanted to be a footballer, but unfortunately the talent didn't really necessarily match the ambition.

I was like, where's my passion point? And my passion was still football, even though I couldn't deliver that on the field.

So I managed to find one of the early sports and football specialist business courses at university. I got told from Sixth Farm teachers and the head of Sixth Farm, you're never going to get a job working in sports.

You should do history or you should do standard business studies. That will set you up for a job. But I was determined to want to work in football.

I got a part time job in the museum at Manchester United, just giving people tickets to look around the stadium. On the course that I was doing, I did an element of coaching.

So on the field, coaching and player development, sports, science and then also the business side.

But getting that kind of initial foot in the door at Manchester United, I saw the actual scale of what's behind the scenes of a football club or a sports organization. A lot of people will just see what happens on the pitch on a Saturday or a Sunday and they don't really see what goes on behind the scenes.

It was a big operation at Manchester United and then because of the course I was on, I saw all these opportunities of going, okay, I could actually make a career in football here, even if I can't be a footballer. So living my dreams there. And then obviously through that time period, there was the likes of Eric Cantona, my favourite player at the time.

Like the way he carried himself as a leader and guided young people on the pitch in terms of his role. So Alex Ferguson obviously goes without saying he's just a master of leadership.

When I was just a junior member of staff, the CEO at the time, David Gill, I remember he used to take the time to walk around the whole business. He knew people's names, he knew my name, even though I was only like a 17 year old student giving out tickets in the museum.

He really made an effort to know everyone in the club and that just was really impactful to me to see someone of great stature take the time to know the people, care about the people, ask them what they were doing and do that kind of on a regular basis.

So obviously Sir Alex Ferguson from a football management leadership side of things, but then David Gillen, the business side of things just opened my eyes to the size of opportunity. Working in sport at a club like Manchester United and then the personalities that I needed to work in those organisations.

No matter what your role, it's that kind of focus on people care and attention, getting to know people, working together as a team. And those kind of early influences in me really made a massive impact.

What about you, Kate?

I would always start with my mum, which I know a lot of people say and reflect on parents, but my mum's had such a huge impact in my life and we're very different. We're very close, but we're very different. But my mum left school when she was 14.

She was brought up in a family that didn't have a lot of money, so she Left school at 14 with no qualifications whatsoever. But you cannot tell that woman she cannot do anything.

If she sees something and she thinks, I fancy having a go at that, she'll go and have a go at it. She'll do it.

She went back to college when she was about 45, when we were older because she wanted to get a job, she wanted to be out, she wanted to be working. So she went back to college and did her GCSEs then and studied and did that as well as raising a family and working together.

But yeah, she's got a lot of determination and I think that's where a lot of my drive comes from as well. She always says she'll never leave the house without brushing her hair. And a little bit of lippy on. Cause you just never know who you're gonna meet.

And it's that kind of attitude. You're up and out, you're presented, you're smiling, you're approachable, you're kind. And the work ethic as well.

She always used to say to me, and she still says it now, don't meet it halfway, don't catastrophize. You never know what's gonna happen. It could turn out okay.

And I think that's been a kind of a huge influence and certainly the work ethic that she instilled in us, being quite young, we probably don't like doing the chores on a Saturday. But it does make you think about what you've got to do as well and taking a responsibility of yourself and going back to the family.

That's very much the way in which I raise my children. I know one of the other parents is mortified because my boys make their own pat lunches.

I was like, if you're not going to have school lunches and give me another job today, you've got to do it yourself. My 12 year old can iron. He'll quite often come down and iron his own shirt because if I've done it once and he screwed it up, that's his problem.

And it's just these life lessons that you learn and I think the way in which Alex and I work and run the business and that reflection that it has on the boys, like they understand that sort of determination. They understand that they live a very nice life and it has to come from somewhere.

We've just had a lovely summer in Spain where we spent the whole summer in Spain, which is a bit of a novelty. We did it last year, we've done it this year because ordinarily we've not had summers with our kids. We've been on pre season tours.

The Premier League season starts. It's been our busiest time of year. When the schools break up is when we get really busy.

But because you have the flexibility of running your own business from anywhere, we've been able to go to Spain and spend the summer there. And even though we were away, we still worked really hard.

And the days where we'd be on calls all day, but they were so understanding of that because they understood that they had a pool outside this pays for this, and they get that. And although it'd be like, have you finished? Have you finished? Can you come? Can we go to the beach? Can we do this?

But they've grown up with that work ethic and I think it really is a great example for them. And then the other person that I've chosen as well is Ali Edge, who.

She'll probably go bright red when she listens to this, but Ali was actually your boss at United, wasn't she, Alec? She was one of the senior directors at Manchester United.

But from day one, when I met her, she's always been so encouraging and a real champion as well for women in Sport. She was 30 years at United, she'd been there from the very beginning, but always continually evolving, making things better.

Again, that sort of work ethic, very similar in that she's got three boys as well, but just a real champion, a real person to lean on, a great advisor, a great mentor. And I'm always super grateful for Ali and everything that she did during our time at the club. And she is actually now one of our clients too.

So she is the Chief brand officer for LTS8, which is an incredible sports advisory firm who we work really closely with.

So that relationship that we've built and that family that we have is Ali, alongside Victoria Timpson and Florence the Flay and Tom Liston Jones that are the founders of ltsa. We've all worked with them at some point at United and built that trust and that relationship with them.

Ali's definitely someone that I thank on a regular basis for her guidance. And then my final person is Brian Robson. He'll probably laugh when he hears this, that he's someone that I feel like has made a real difference.

But Brian was my very first client, my first client freelancing and working.

So a couple of years ago, I did the world premiere of his documentary that he did, and Brian asked me to look after the PR for that and, yeah, present it to the world.

And again, he's trusting my ability and given this huge project that he had and working alongside Him I'm now fortunate enough to work with a couple of his other businesses. I just know him as Robbo. But then when you walk in a room with Brian Robson and people's reaction, then you're like, oh, no, no, it is Brian Robson.

But to us he's just Robbo, if that makes sense.

That really speaks to the power of relationship.

And I want to move us on to how you both speak so passionately about relationships in which there is trust and how people have inspired and encouraged you and helped you to be who you are today. And you've mentioned already some of the relationships, but you are very much at both barrels all about relationship.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's fundamental to what we've built our careers on as people and also within our working life, it's relationships with people.

It's quickly building trust, establishing trust.

And a really big part of that is understanding the other person that you build in a relationship with and understanding what their goals and their ambitions are and what it is they're trying to achieve. And then from your perspective, it's how can I help you achieve that? What role can I play in helping you achieve your goal?

And that's something that's grown and developed that understanding over obviously a career of 20 plus years in the roles that we've been doing and what we're taking into both barrels now.

But yeah, if you can really establish that understanding of the people that you're starting to build relationships to, of like, not necessarily what's in it for you, but how can you play a role in helping them achieve their goals and their ambitions and then that working collaboration and the opportunities just develop from there really, because they know that you've got their back and they know that you can be trusted to guide them. And another thing we come onto is obviously honesty and transparency.

If someone then comes to you with a problem or a challenge and we're not the people to be able to fix it, we're quite open and honest and saying, look, that's not our area. But luckily, because of the network that we've got and the relationships we've got, we always say, but we know someone who can.

And there's nothing necessarily in that for us.

But a lot of what we do is we speak to people if they've got a challenge in whatever area of business that they're in, if we can help, absolutely perfect. But if not, we've got those long standing relationships across sports, across different industries.

Again, working in the sponsorship department, you got to have experience of loads of different business industries. It wasn't just sport, it was finance it, Blockchain, emerging technologies, travel, finance, you name it.

Kitchen and showers, taps. Alex is very knowledgeable at taps and tires, oil.

Yeah, everything you can imagine. So you've got all these relationships in all these different industries.

So when you're speaking to people you can always help them or you can always point them in the right direction. And that understanding of somebody else's ambitions I think is really valued when it comes to building those long lasting relationships.

I think that the willingness to help as well. We'll never gatekeep, but if we can help someone then we will do. And like Alex said, it might not necessarily be financially rewarding for us.

I don't think we're going to be millionaires. But if you're able to do that, it comes back to you somehow. And I'm very much a believer in that. Ish. Kindness, isn't it? Kindness comes back to you.

And if we are able to help someone, a big part of what we do is making those connections as well. Alex has a fantastic network. He studied at Harvard, the BAMS course, the business of entertainment, media and sport.

That's right, yeah.

BAMS a fantastic network through there.

Just generally the work that we've done, My previous background before being in sport, I did all sorts of different industries, working for different agencies.

So there's always someone that we know or someone who'll know someone and we tend to make those connections and it does tend to come back even from a business perspective as well. They might be looking for someone in a particular skill set that we've not got.

But we know the expert eventually down the line they will need that comm support or they will need that partnership management support. So they come back to us for that and we build this team around us.

There is the two of us that run the business, but we've got such a high network of experts in different areas that we tend to build a squad and a team together of the people that we need to deliver for certain projects for our clients.

And that speaks to integrity and the way you have founded your lives, your work, your leadership on integrity.

Yeah, definitely. And our whole industry is built on reputation. So that's a huge thing for us.

And to ensure that the people that we surround ourselves with as well, that we ensure that they operate in the same way as us, they have the same integrity, they have the same reputation and we've spent our years, 20 odd years honing those relationships and building that network and having the right people around Us, But I think first and foremost, that's what we want to be known for as human beings, but as a business, as well as being reputable, being trustworthy, being honest. And I think that's why our clients come to us.

Certainly from my perspective as well, working in media relations area, that there's a lot of trust that you've got to have with journalists as well.

And you've got to have great relationships that you can pick up the phone and sometimes they're difficult conversations and you're not giving them what they want and vice versa.

But I think if you've taken the time to build that relationship and have that understanding of what each other's needs, you can have those frank and honest conversations. And that's always the way that I've operated.

I wanted to ask you about some of the places that have also influenced you and shaped you and meant something to you, because I know that you got married in Las Vegas.

We did get married in Las Vegas, yeah. I think the great thing about Alex and I is that before we became a couple, we knew each other for a long time. We were friends first and foremost.

But I think one of the great things that we have is that we've actually traveled the world together. If you can travel with someone and survive an airport with someone, then that does go a very long way.

And our ability to stay calm in certain situations. And there's many stories about the wonderful places that we've been to.

There's a lot of things that happen in the moment. You mentioned Las Vegas there, Annie. And again, linking it back to family and working relationships.

The Vegas wedding was not planned at all, like literally not planned for a split second.

Kate had been delivering a pre season tour in the us I'd flown in for a couple of aspects of it towards the back end to deliver some things for my clients.

Yeah. Funnily enough, he turned up in Vegas. He wasn't there for the majority of it, but he had to be in Vegas.

Yeah. So Kate was completely burnt out. I think he had a flight to leave to go back to Manchester at five o' clock the next morning.

And we just played the last game of the pre season Tour United against Dortmund in the Allegiance Stadium. Kate had been looking after all of these high profile guests and running around the stadium.

And then after the game, after the end of a very intense kind of four weeks for you, Kate, the club from the Allegiance Stadium invited us into their players lounge like post match. So we went and we knew that Kate had an early flight in the morning. So did the half an hour mingling, polite, just make sure that we showed our face.

What I actually said was, because he came over to give me a drink and I went, thanks so much. I whispered, don't get comfy because we're not stains.

And then what happened is, like, we'll have one more drink and then we'll go after that. So I gave Kate a drink, I took my drink and then we both sat at other ends of the room.

And I was with a group of people that we'd worked with for years, some really good friends, great colleagues, great relationships. And Kate was at the other side of the room.

And then one of our colleagues, Rachel, who's just absolutely lovely, she said to me, you two are such a good couple. She was like, when are you going to marry Kate? And I just flippantly said, I'd do it tonight if she was up for it.

And then obviously all the girls scream. Everyone gets very excited.

We've got event organisers within our team, we've got event planners, we've got logistics people, all of these kind of things. So Kate turned around and was like, what's going on? And I didn't even ask. You did it. It was Rachel who said, would you marry Alex tonight?

You said yes. And then all of our events team whipped into action. They were looking for chapels that were open. Someone organized the car.

So in the space of basically two hours, we went from this idea of, when are you going to get married?

To actually standing in one of the chapels in Vegas with all of our friends that we've worked with for years, who, like I said, they are like family, like the close relationships. And you live in each of the pockets on these tours.

You wake up, you eat together, you do all your events, you work really hard, 20 hour days, four weeks, really intense. So you kind of know each other better than family sometimes. Sometimes.

So we was in this room surrounded by, yeah, family and friends, totally unplanned, going with the flow. Wes Brown again, one of the Farmer United players. Gave you away, Kate.

Yeah, yeah. He's a very good friend of ours. He walked me down the aisle and he started crying when I asked him if he'd give me away.

He was there with his partner Amy, and they did that.

Tour operations manager is a fantastic singer and she sang Elvis as we walked down the aisle and then we danced out of the chapel, everyone very merry and happy to go and get a drink in one of the banners too. Paul Simon. You can call me Al because my nickname's Betty. And obviously the line is I can call you Betty.

And Betty, when you call me, you can call me Al. So yeah, that was our Vegas story.

So we've completed Vegas, which I think for us is the funniest story ever because anyone that actually knows us, and you know this Annie and Fearne as well, is that we quite like staying at home. We're not that rock and roll. And we have a saying, you either go big or stay home. And more often than not, we stay home.

And every now and again we do these outrageous things where, yeah, we go big.

And as we draw our conversation to a close, are there any key experiences that have really shaped your journey and the journey that you've shared with us in your story today? Any other key standout experiences?

Kate mentioned before the Harvard BEMS programme, so that's run by Professor Anita Albert, who's just absolutely unbelievable. Just in terms of her background, her knowledge, her connections in sport, the way that she runs her programs are absolutely amazing.

And for a few years I worked alongside Anita, putting on some leadership programs with Sir Alex Ferguson. So Sir Alex did a leadership program with Harvard. Anita was the author of the leadership program.

And then Sir Alex went out to Harvard and delivered these sessions to the Harvard students. And then we ran those for some of our commercial partners as well because we had these amazing opportunities to link up.

These incredible people, gave a lot of guidance to CEOs in terms of leadership. Big industry leaders learning from the best and learning from the principles of Sir Alex Ferguson.

And then I built that relationship with Anita and then she really kindly invited me to apply for one of the programs and I got the opportunity to go over on this program and again, leaders from.

I'd been traditionally in sports, but there was leaders from the entertainment industry, media, there was sports professionals, ex athletes, ex pros, current athletes and pros. And it just showed me the convergence of all of these worlds of business, entertainment, media and sport.

They don't just operate in their own channels anymore.

It's cross functional and there's elements to take from each of those industries that when converged together, you can deliver a lot more and a lot more impact.

And that's really what shaped the opportunities to be able to set up both barrels, really having those relationships in multiple different industries that you can then bring together the strengths, the talent, the industry expertise, the media platforms, the A list talent, and bring all that together to deliver something transformational for a business or for a sports organization or for an athlete that we represent. So that was really impactful in terms of the case material, but also the people on that course.

And on the last day they brought all the kind of recognizable, kind of star talent in sports and music and media. And there was a panel discussion and the honesty and transparency and detail that was shared in terms of the setbacks that they'd all faced.

You see some of these people sometimes and you're like, oh my God, these people are absolutely incredible. Like they've got to this level because they've got some star given talent that is just completely out of reach for me.

But when you actually hear the stories and the challenges they face to get there and the setbacks they've had and then their own kind of personal doubts, their own fears, some of the challenges they've faced and overcome them, that kind of honesty of them sharing those experiences, which is really eye opening. It removes the barriers of what your ambitions can be really, because you're like, you know what?

I'm not going to use this setback or this challenge as a reason why I can't aim for here and I can't do something like absolutely amazing.

So not just the business case material from the course and the relationships formed, but seeing those people at the top of their industries, openly and honestly talking about some of their challenges, how they overcame them, the opportunities that opened for them, which they didn't necessarily see at first, was just really inspiring for the step that I've then gone on to take to set up this business with Kate. And well done.

And it speaks to the never giving up as well, doesn't it, that you've both touched on. What about you, Kate? What key experience or experiences on your journey have really shaped you?

Yeah, I think there have been many kind of really humbling experiences. Of all the travel that we've done with United, the people that we've met during that as well.

And it's only sometimes when you look back and reflect and actually look at the things that you've done. But I just used to like meeting the fans in some obscure cafe in Vietnam who loved the club from the city that I was born in.

I think that's always been amazing and given me a real pride. But I guess the most influential moment is setting up both barrels with Alex and doing that.

Because it's something that I've wanted to do for a very long time and I don't think I've really had the confidence to do it. And through circumstances we were given the opportunity to do it. The reaction has been unbelievable.

We haven't had to go out hard to Fight to look for clients. Like clients have come to us.

The first couple of weeks when I'd said that I'd left the club and I was setting up on my own, that people were contacting me and brilliant. You can do this, you can do that, you can do that.

And I've been super lucky in the people that we've worked with and I think that has been a huge turning point in our lives, bringing it back to family.

It's made such a big difference to our quality of life, having that control over the business and the way that, that we work and being able to do it together as well. People wonder, how do you be married and live together and work together? I always say the working together is fine.

It's his inability to load the dishwasher is the real issue. But I know how lucky that I am that I've got this opportunity.

Going back to some of the things we've touched on before, you've got to do it, haven't you? You've got one shot at life, so you've got to give it a go and you've got to work bloody hard at doing it. And that's what we do.

We give everything, both barrels and we go for it.

So, yeah, this has been a huge, huge turning point and it's been a joy to be coming back after 12 months and actually having this conversation because I know you've been there from the beginning. We've spoken about it a lot in the times that we've seen each other, you've known us pre both barrels and during the buildup of the business.

So thank you to you and to Fearne for your support as well.

Thank you to you both. And as a result of our conversation today, who are the people with whom you're going to have a conversation? What will the conversation be about?

We work with a number of clients in all different industries and all different sizes and we work on some kind of transformational business things.

We help them improve their efficiencies, improve their delivery against the objectives and taking our experience and obviously you're working with a lot of leaders that are very well established people and very successful people in their own right, in their own industry. But there's always learnings that you can take from anyone, really.

We're always open to people's advice and taking on guidance and acting as that sponge and learning from successful people in all industries.

But one thing that we continuously say to people is trust and guide your team because a lot of leadership is in terms of those relationships, they'll have their own ambitions, they'll have their own challenges, they'll have their own personal goals.

And if you can guide them in a way and show trust in them, you'll be amazed at the level that they can get to because of their own intrinsic kind of internal drives and motivations.

So if you can find that way to trust, guide them, share your knowledge and kind of help them grow, you see that reflected back in the work that they deliver and then obviously ongoing in terms of the success that they have, brings you just the immense joy. I've worked with so many young people that have had their first jobs and they're usually. They used to get thrown in with me.

Go and work with Alex, he'll tell you everything that you need to do.

And what I'm most proud of is now that those people are scattered around the world in Formula one in football, tennis, cricket, rugby, all different sports, all different businesses, leading organizations and leading departments.

And I remember them coming in as a young junior a little bit like I did at one point, not knowing anything and being able to guide someone and trust them in a way that they can reach their ambitions and then see them go on to do it is really rewarding.

And is there someone, Alex, that you'll have a conversation with as a result of this conversation, and what will the conversation be with them that will help and guide them?

We've got one coming up, haven't we?

I was going to say we've got one straight after this as well, actually, which will be Valley, marked along the lines of trust us. It'll be fine. Alex was extremely nervous before we started recording. He's given me that look now.

I can't believe you've just said that, but you were nervous. I'm used to this kind of thing, but you've got to push yourself out of that comfort zone.

And that goes again with the other topics that we spoke around about. That determination, that grit.

It's something that I'm still learning that never give up as well, which is actually what our boys gave us when we were going through this. And they're like, never give up, Sir Goodman, you always say that, never give up. And that includes pushing you out of your comfort zone.

We've got conversations around that with some of our clients and just instilling that trust and doing the things that maybe you don't want to do, but it's for the benefit. There's reasons behind it.

And finally, your final three key encouragements to anybody listening who is looking to and thinking about family Relationships, integrity and never giving up.

I always say don't be afraid to say that you don't know or that you were wrong as well. I think everything's a learning curve. And then a little bit to what Alex just said as well.

You might have a team member that does know more about something that you do. So you work with them, you learn from them, it all enhances you and your team as well. So that's one of my lessons that.

I would always say I've actually got. Never give up as a tattoo in my son's handwriting on my arm. Actually, I coach his football team and it's the motto that I give them.

Keep playing till the final whistle. Even if you're three goals down, don't let your heads drop. Keep focused, keep playing your game.

I've been coaching these kids since they were five, six years old. They're about eight, nine now. And that's something I've always instilled in them as a team. But I think this is quite easy to say, quite hard to do.

But in a world increasingly focused on instant access to whatever it is that you need, it's quite hard to have that long term goal in mind and stay focused on it. So a big part of that focus of never giving up up is really keep something that you want to do and is important to you in mind.

You won't instantly get there.

It's not a quick win, it's not a quick fix, but if it's important to you, you'll deal with the setbacks, you'll get pushed onto a different path, you'll be able to then navigate back to it and see everything as an opportunity to stay on track, stay focused on what you ultimately want to achieve and you will get there again. It sounds like I say it's always easy to say, not as easy to do, but I think it's really important, especially for younger people today.

Like it doesn't come quickly, it doesn't come easily. There's a lot of times when your confidence will get knocked, especially when it comes to things in your career.

People judging your abilities based on some perception that they've got of you and then they're transferring it over to you. You've got to believe in yourself and the goals that you want to achieve and then keep working towards it.

Take the guidance, take the criticism, sometimes take it in the right way, learn from them and stay focused on what it is that you want to achieve. And yeah, never give up on it, Never give up.

Wonderful. Thank you both so much. And for people who want to get in touch with you, want your help and guidance, what's the best way for them to do that? Kate?

They can contact us via our website, which is bothbarrels.co.uk and also on LinkedIn. Alex is in charge of our LinkedIn, so he's on there a lot.

Yeah.

If you're entering into something that's new to you in the sporting landscape and you just want a little bit of advice, we're always happy to just talk things through. There's never any commitment if we don't know how to help you.

We'll definitely be able to point you in the right direction because of the network and the relationships that we've got. But if you're uncertain of anything, you're facing a new challenge. You just want to to pick our brains about projects that you're about to embark on.

Feel free to reach out and we're happy to talk to absolutely anyone.

Wonderful. Thank you for talking to me, Danny.

We love having conversations and I love.

Having conversations and I have loved our conversation today. Thank you both so much. It's been real fun hearing about your journey and knowing things about you both that I didn't know.

And also to mark the one year anniversary of both barrels. So really lovely to be in conversation. Thank you. And thank you to you, the listener, as well as getting in touch with Kate and Alex.

If you'd like to get in touch with me, do so via my website, annietownen.com if you'd like to find out more about collaboration, do go to collaborationequation.com I found with Lucy Kidd, a big thank you to Smogus Media for the wonderful production and marketing of the podcast and Louisa Penny for the writing. Thank you again to you, Kate, and to you, Alex, and all the very best with both barrels.

Thanks, Annie.

Thank you, Annie, and thanks for the conversation today and all the belief you've shown in.