Keo grew up in Mexico City without an easy answer to the question of where he belonged. Born in the United States and raised in Mexico, he spent his life moving between identities, social classes and cultures. He talks about his childhood and abusive father, the friendships and relationships that shaped him, the realities of class in Mexico, and the strange experience of being both deeply connected to Mexico and permanently marked as American.

Please show some support for the podcast and get access to some extra content by subscribing to the Patreon page: http://www.patreon.com/onefjef

Instagram: @onefjefpod

TikTok: @onefjefpodcast

Substack: https://onefjef.substack.com

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/onefjefpod

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@onefjef

Email: [email protected]

You can also call the podcast and leave a voicemail at 1-669-241-5882 and I will probably play it on the air.

Thank you for listening, please do it again, and then read the label.

Onefjef is produced, edited & hosted by Jef Taylor.

I'm here in Mexico basically because my mom had schizophrenia

and a trust fund, and my father was a sociopath and child molester.

And so we moved here to the States most likely because the situation with…

Suddenly my parents packed and said two months before- Right … they packed

everything, came and came to Mexico.

And they had to go.

And yeah, we, we cut off ties with every- every- everyone in, in the States.

Este es el episodio sesenta y tres de onefjef.

Episode 63.

Episode 63.

Hello once again, my friends.

¿Que tal?

Are you thriving?

Yes, of course you are.

Me too.

Can you believe it's October?

October used to be the eighth month in the Roman calendar.

I just learned this recently.

Octo is the Latin word for eight, and Spanish word is ocho, so it's close.

The months weren't longer back in the Roman times, but apparently after

December there was just, like, a nameless void for, like, two months because

it was winter and not a lot happened.

Weird, right?

I mean, if somebody asked you what month it was, would you be like,

"Just the void, day 80," or whatever.

You know, everybody talks about how things seem so bleak and everybody thinks

politics is bad right now, but at least we have names for the winter months.

Count your blessings, my friends.

Count your blessings

My guest today is Keo, who has asked me to omit his last name for

reasons that will become apparent as you listen to the episode.

I met Keo in this film meetup group that I've been going to fairly consistently

since I moved here to Mexico City.

We pick a film, we watch the film on our own, and then once a month

we get together and we talk about it and about whatever else comes up.

Sometimes there's Domino's.

It's an interesting group of humans, and Keo is no exception to that.

His story is one of the more incredible and difficult expat/immigrant

stories I've heard here.

And I don't want to give too much away, but I should preface this by saying that

we do talk about childhood sexual abuse.

So if this is a subject that is potentially triggering to you, then

maybe listen to a different episode.

Okay.

Also, this conversation was recorded back in my old apartment about six

months ago when I was relatively fresh off the boat, as it were.

And honestly, it was a little embarrassing listening back to this interview

because I sound quite green at times, like an eager beaver, if you will.

Also drunk too, as Keo and I knocked down a significant part of a bottle of tequila

during the course of this conversation.

I tried to edit most of the nonsense out, but there's still

a bit in there if you squint.

Apologies.

Before I get to that though, please take a moment to like, rate, subscribe

and review this podcast and then share it with somebody that you know.

If there's anything I've learned over the last year and a half of

making this podcast, it's that growing a podcast is difficult work.

So any help you can provide is very much appreciated.

But also, thank you for listening.

Thank you for being here.

Here's my conversation with Keo from my old apartment in Roma Sur

Keo short for anything?

Uh, yeah.

The I kind of made, I made it up when I was, uh, uh, I think I was

13, 14 years old, and, um, my Birth certificate, uh, says Christopher,

and Chris is more Christina in Mexico.

Ah, okay.

So I kinda had an ident- well, my whole life is in big, huge identity crisis.

I love it.

We'll get to that.

But, uh, oh yeah.

No, no, no.

We can… So okay, how did you end up in Mexico City?

Well, um, I have this kind of weird story background because, uh, my parents left.

I have a, a sister who's six years older than me, and, uh, so when, when I was

three and she was nine, they, uh, suddenly packed and we, we, they were living in

Santa Barbara as a- Your whole family?

Yeah.

Right.

I mean, for the four of us, my mother, father, sister, son.

I kinda remember a couple of flashes, like I used to, I don't

know, I think I had a tricycle that I could- that was in the back.

Fair enough … or something like that.

Yeah, yeah.

I think I… I don't know, just a few flash… So then they moved here, and,

uh, my father always come up, uh, w- always had these fantasies and, and tall

stories, and my mom, um, had, would- had a m- mental problem and mental disease,

and I don't know, sometimes like, uh…

My, my mother was quite functional, and she was brightest

person I've met in my life.

I mean, she's, uh- Right … anybody that met her was, she was

just absolutely brilliant.

She had an excitable mind and… But she would just agree with everything that

my father would say, and just kind of either be quiet or, I mean, not, not, she

didn't talk about why we were in Mexico.

And my, my father, like, he was, uh, once he would say like, "Oh, it's just

that my mother was part of the Communist Party and we were going to Chile." Now,

uh, b- apparently Chile was a real thing.

I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think it was that.

But we, we, uh, they drove here to Mexico City- Wow … so in a Jeep.

And what year is this?

This is 1973.

So in 1973, so you guys just kinda packed up and moved to Mexico City, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

With v- very vague and- And you have no idea why.

Yeah.

Your mom has some mental issues- Yeah … you don't really know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And your dad has some other, I'm not sure what issues, but we can- Yeah, I

mean- … get to if you want to or not.

But yeah.

Yeah.

And so you moved to Mexico City?

Yes.

My parents, uh, they started teaching English.

Okay.

I later knew, uh, found out that they only had a tourist visa.

We all had just had a tourist visa.

So yeah, uh, s- so he just, uh, well, we just stayed here.

There was no connection with, uh, w- I, I don't have a…

And, uh, so my mom didn't have any, any family.

She had some family in, in Wales.

Her, her- Hmm … parents were from Wales.

And, uh, and my father had a sister.

They, they're both, uh, they passed away a few years ago.

Okay.

When you're younger, are you ever, like, asking your parents, "Why did

we move here when we were three?"

Yeah.

No, I, I, I- No?

… don't know.

It just was just, I, I mean, I knew it was kinda weird and that I was

different and- Yeah I was born here.

I, I mean, in the way that, I mean, at least my consciousness

was born here . Sure, sure, sure.

I mean, my mind was b- born here.

Yeah.

I, I didn't have much of a mind before that.

Yeah, yeah.

And the thing is, I, I started telling these stories that my father

would say, which then kept changing.

And also when I started to be mildly intelligent- Sure … I would say, "No,

this doesn't really make sense." Uh-huh.

I mean, I don't think there's CIA- … Communist Party-

Right … uh, uh, fleeing- Yeah … thing kind of makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I mean, this, this, this is just not… There's no way to know

because- Sure … they didn't, they didn't give any explanation of this.

They never told you.

They di- and then they didn't tell, like, uh, my aunt or their family.

Right.

Right, right, right.

The thing is, we stayed here.

I was a, I was a American-Mexican dreamer because- not a Mexican-American.

I'm American-Mexican dreamer because I, I, I didn't have my papers, and I- Right.

Right, right … this was my, the only country I knew.

Right.

No?

And but, but, uh, my parents didn't get involved with the American

community here or anything, although they did teach English, so yeah,

they had a few English- A little bit.

Yeah … yeah.

And, and, and a lot of them were Mexicans, uh, Mexicans that spoke

English and gave English classes.

Right.

Right, right.

So I don't know.

Uh, they, they were just very, very, very, very weird.

And so, so my life was, at home was really a fantasy world.

Right.

And I didn't feel safe.

Uh, I had- In what way did you not feel- Well, uh, I mean, I think

my father was a threat to me and- Oh, he was an abusive guy or?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, yeah, I mean, he was a child molester.

Oh, all right.

So, so yeah.

Well, there, that explains a little more.

So, so he molested me and my brother and- Oh, he molested you too?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, yeah.

And my b- I had a brother that was born here because he was 15 years… I was

15 year, years old when he was born.

Uh-huh.

And he was born here, and, uh, he was also molested by my father and, but yeah,

m- we, I, I had a lot of mental issues.

And do you know that because you, do, he told you?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

No, no, we talked about it all the time.

Yeah.

Right.

My, my brother and, and me, we talked about it all the time- Yeah,

yeah … and how difficult it was to make especially the American's,

uh, family to believe us, no?

Right.

Right.

Because we also, I mean, since, since my brother and I, we have

problems since we're, we were children because yeah, I mean, that happens.

No, we weren't- Sure, sure … very normal and no, no nice and every…

No, no, no, I mean, we were weird.

And, uh, my brother got into drugs from, I, I think age 12- Okay

something like that.

Yeah.

So yeah, I mean, whenever we, we said that, I mean, my father's a-

abusing us and- Uh-huh … and, and takes us with men to be- Abused.

I mean, he didn't do it.

He, he, he took us with men to do it.

And, uh- Uh-huh … but yeah, telling him and say, and giving all the evidence.

"No, no, no, but they're such wonderful people."

And I, I remember, I mean, right now with all this Jeffrey Epstein thing-

Yeah, yeah … I said, "Yeah, yeah, he's s- such a wonderful guy." Of course.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I'm sure he was swell.

I mean, I think that Donald Trump was right.

No, he, probably Jeffrey Epstein was a swell guy.

Yeah, I'm sure he was, yeah.

No, I mean- Yeah

yeah, I mean, that's, but that's, that's what psychopaths do.

Uh, usually they're very charming, right?

Yeah.

I mean, sociopathy- They, they have to be very, they, yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

They have to be very charming to hide all the e- Yeah … I mean- Yeah … horrid

things and- All the sociopaths- Yeah, yeah … that I've ever met have

always been the most charming people I've ever met, because that's- Yeah

the thing, right?

How long did that go on for with your dad?

Guess until, uh, we were 11.

Uh, because he, he, they kind of, they, they always have like a- Yeah,

those- … perfect age … yeah.

So, so it was like, uh, like between seven and nine.

So, so I mean, later, later, uh, after he died, I mean, it came

out that, yeah, I mean, people…

That, that's what really pissed me off- Oh, after he died it all came out?

Yeah.

I mean, but, but, but that, uh, children that he knew from other like friends

of friends- Right … or whatever, I mean, fortunately not from my side.

And yeah, my, my, my father was probably the charmest, uh, I, I mean-

I'm sure … he was charming as- Yeah

fuck, I guess I can say.

Charming as fuck, yeah.

Well, I'm Canadian.

You, you can b- it if you… Sure.

Do you think your mom knew what was going on?

Oh, I, I mean, I actually told her, but, yeah, she, I mean- She didn't do anything

… she said that she didn't know, and then she sa- she said she couldn't do anything

about it, which I kinda believe, I mean, in a sense because- Yeah, no, right

she was, she was trapped because, uh- Yeah … I mean, she had

money, but she was morbidly obese.

I mean, but just- Ah, sure … huge, you know?

I mean, and- Right … and, uh, she couldn't move, she couldn't th…

Uh, which was a li- I mean, it was kind of part of the plan, I guess.

Right.

No?

Right.

How did you feel about your dad when you were a kid?

Were you scared of him?

Were you just- No, I, I, I mean, I actually loved him

because you kind of have to.

Right.

I mean, you get to… You start loving your parents-

Right … kind of instinctively.

Right.

And, uh, but the thing is when, when, when, when I turned seven

and eight and the abuse started and that, that's… I, I started, without

thinking, you know, just keeping away.

I didn't, I didn't… Not that I was- Yeah … since he, he, he, he arranged for

other men to do the stuff- Jesus fucking Christ, bro … uh, so with, like, w- if

I was h- with him, I wasn't afraid- Right … because I knew that- These other fucking

random dudes who he was- Yeah, exactly.

So, I mean.

Um- Yeah, he, he'd always- But you knew right away it was bad.

Well- Like, when it first started, you were like, "This

is not right." Well, yeah.

I mean, uh, yeah, uh, yeah, it was, it was violent.

I mean, he would, he would do violence.

I mean- Wow … vi- it was, it was, it was not just molesting in the sense like-

Yeah … having sex with the children.

No, no, no.

Right.

It was rape.

No, I mean brutal rape.

Wow.

So, you know, no, obviously this was not g- I mean, I, I, I, I, of

course, I was panicked about- Of course … uh, uh, that happening again.

Yeah.

You know, it just happened about… Uh, to me, it just happened about,

I don't know, maybe three, may- uh, three, maybe four times.

Okay.

But still, that's, yeah.

Uh, yeah, something.

But, but, but that ti- that, that happened because he, he arranged

that the, um, supervise, I mean, the super in the building- Okay

you know?

Uh, he had a nephew that came to visit- Mm-hmm … and blah, blah, blah,

and then the nephew, and so anyway.

I, I mean, I… When it happened, I told my dad, and then, and my dad

said, "Oh, no, no. Well, I mean, let me see. I'll try to see, fix

it," or… I don't, I don't know.

It's a we- weird thing.

But the thing is there, the, after, after the third or fourth time, I

can't remember, a neighbor- From the building, caught him, to, I

mean, take him in, into this room-

where he did the- Right … deed.

It was right there in the building.

And, and he told my father.

But the thing is- Your father didn't care for other- No, well,

he said, "Oh, well, I don't know.

I mean," uh, uh, I mean, and he, he was like, "What's, let's go

to the police," and all that.

Yeah.

And that, that's where my father was really smart in that sense because

the thing is people would say, "Well, I mean, maybe they're not doing this

because that's because they're American."

No?

Yeah.

They're gringos.

Yeah.

No, that, that's, that's kinda… I think that when, when all these weird

things would happen, no, in family- You're separate from the rest of

the people … and friends and yeah- It's like, "Oh, they're American."

Yeah … like my mom… Yeah, when, when, when people didn't understand what

my mom was really trying to say- Right

they would say, "Oh, well, I mean, uh…" Yeah.

Because she had an accent all her life.

Sure.

So, so a strong, more or less strong a- accent in Spanish.

So, uh, so yeah, I, I guess they just said, "Oh, that,

that's just American." Huh.

You know, so the American way, no?

And so, uh- Do you think that he moved here and you all moved here

in part because of like that?

Uh, yeah, j- it's the only story that makes sense.

Right.

No, and after, after it came out that, uh, I mean, because I, I knew

about my brother, but, uh, you know, about me and my… I said, "Well,

but my brother, that was years ago." But then I saw that he continued.

And also he died, and we sold his computers.

Mm-hmm.

Dun, dun, dun.

Mm-hmm.

No?

And then, uh, okay, and then somebody opened it.

Mm-hmm.

And so anyway, so, uh- That's rough, dude.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, well- Yeah … yeah, I know.

I mean- I mean, everybody's got childhood trauma, but you got childhood trauma.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, have the trauma… I mean, like my, my sister didn't have a good

time at all either and she- Did she?

Did she, did her dad, your dad wasn't into her… Okay.

No, but I, but, but, but I mean, she, he, he made her cover up,

I mean- Sh- … unconsciously.

I mean, she didn't real- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah … she didn't

tell her all that and all that.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I told her once, and then, uh, she said, "Oh

my God. No, that's horrible."

And yeah, she didn't really register it.

Sure, I mean, what's she gonna do?

And then I confronted my father in front of her.

We went to a family therapy when my, uh, my, my brother had big, uh, drug problems-

Drug problems, right … and all that.

And there I confronted my father in front of my sister and my mom, and I said,

"Well, I mean, you did this, this, this.

I mean, you, you knew this and all that." And, uh, I didn't say about

my brother because he didn't show up.

He wasn't there, yeah.

So, so I didn't say that.

I mean, that was his story to tell.

Yeah, that's his story to tell.

But, uh, but yeah, I mean, I told it and, and my father ju- uh, but when, I mean,

actually he just said, "Well, I mean," as when I, when I told him, I mean,

"Why, why wouldn't you stop it, and why would you send me to this guy again?"

"Well, it's just that I had much, uh, to, man, just, uh, too much stuff in my mind."

Uh, you're thinking about other stuff, no?

Yeah, and the therapist just jumped up and said, "What could

you have on your mind?" But yeah.

Right.

So- No, it just says… I mean, he didn't mind.

Uh, he didn't care.

He didn't give a shit.

So it's- So he's just been outed as a child molester to his, to his

kid, and he didn't really see…

It wasn't, it didn't really phase him.

Nope.

Wow.

And, and for- and his wife Wow.

And what did the- And among… Yeah … what did the therapist say?

Oh, he, he was just completely shocked.

I mean- Of course.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And after that, I mean, l- l- my sister told me that, I mean, she was sorry.

I mean, it was… And I, I understand.

I mean, I don't blame her.

Just that she said, "Well, when you told me, I mean, I kinda believe you,

but I kind of, since I hoped that it wasn't true-" Sure, of course.

It's gotta be a hard thing to process.

Yeah, exactly.

But just l- seeing my, I mean, looking at my father just, uh, saying, "Yeah,

but sure, happened, but so what?

I mean, I was busy." And, and yeah, she, she, she couldn't believe it.

B- uh, and I didn't have, I mean, I, I didn't have much family in any way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I didn't have any support from other places.

Yeah, no.

I get it.

So it was really hard.

Um- Are, are you still close with your sister?

Yeah.

I mean, w- it's been…

I mean, after… I, I guess she kind of, after the years, kind of assumed

that maybe my father had lied.

Because he would do that.

Oh, really?

He, he would confess stuff.

No?

When, when we got c- when he got caught, he would confess, "Oh, yeah, I'm sorry

I did this, but I won't do it again," and all that, and blah, blah, blah.

And then say, "Oh, I confessed because your brother was pressuring me." And

so you think that she believes, like, doesn't think anything happened again?

I don't know.

I- That's n- I mean, it makes sense … yeah.

Like, it's human nature, right?

Sure.

I mean, you don't wanna believe the worst thing, and it's gotta be- Yeah

an impossible thing to even reckon with that.

When did you start to… I don't mean to… If you wanna stop

talking about this, we can stop.

Yeah.

No, no, no.

But, like, when did you start to reckon with this, like, as- Oh … an adult?

Well, the, the, the thing is, when I was, uh, 15, um, I, I had

been for a while, I can remember.

I mean, first I had this, I invented the kale, no?

And I invented… Because- I see … I, I was really, really withdrawn.

Mm-hmm.

Com- I'm sure.

Yeah … pletely.

I mean, I, I, I probably had something from childhood, something that fr-

because, uh, I was practically non-verbal until I was six, I've been told.

I, I am on the spectrum.

I'm in the autism spectrum, uh, m- I'm at… But the thing is, uh, bec- I know

that because when I was about 15, uh, after a while, I mean, I kinda realized,

nope, something's not right with me.

I mean, I'm not, I'm not… Uh, this is not just me not- Whatever.

I mean, uh, th- this is not- Right … I'm not, I'm not- Right … I'm not okay.

No.

And- Right … I don't know.

I'm, I guess I was smart enough or s- whatever I, I mean, I imagine

it's a combination of many things, but- Yeah … like, you know, the,

the trauma and, like, who knows what else contributed- Ex- exactly … to

other things, but yeah So on top of it- Yeah, yeah, yeah … or whatever.

Yeah.

Yeah, so.

Well, and, and, and, uh, uh, schizophrenia has a p- my mom probably was- Oh,

your mom's probably schizophrenic?

Yeah … yeah, was probably schizophrenic.

I mean, she never had a diagnosis, but I'm pretty sure.

Yeah.

And, uh, so yeah, I mean, I have the genetic things and all that.

So- But, uh, so at 15, I, I, I decided I had to go to therapy.

Well, of course, was a big no-no for my father.

But, like, my mom would have these moments of

I, I mean, she, she, she was very … Like, she, if she gave a,

gave an order, everybody would do it.

No?

Sure.

She, she, mostly she was just locked up in a room.

Right.

But then suddenly a scream would come out of the room and- Right

… "Bring me food," or da, da, da.

Yeah, yeah.

And everybody would have to move and st- take it.

No?

So sometimes she would, she would say, I mean, "Bring me money." No?

And then she would have money.

Right.

So she was g- she would give me money under the, kind of under the table.

Well, I mean, she could do it openly- Sure.

Sure, sure … because my father would never say anything.

But, uh, but it, she didn't tell my father.

And so I don't know how many years that went, but about three,

four years until my father found out that I was going to therapy.

Uh, but I had to, I had to do it behind be- behind his back.

I, I also had to do it behind my, my sister's back because she, she

also said, "No, no, no," my … It, it, it would be, we would betray

my father if we go to therapy.

Right, right, right.

And I, I told her that- That's crazy town.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I- God forbid we betray your father.

Yeah.

Well, I, uh, I mean, I, I don't … It's just- No, I get it.

I get it.

It's horrible for- It's just, like- Yeah … dysfunction begets dysfunction,

and it's just kinda crazy how these- Yeah.

… this dysfunction just kind of spreads into this spider web of kind of like,

oh, we've gotta, you know- Yeah.

Yeah … on, and on, and on.

Yeah.

So.

No, no, no, I mean, I, I, I, I, I mean, my, my, my, my sister's

just, uh, also strong as hell.

No, I mean to- Yeah … to just live- I'm sure … her life and just

to be alive because- Well, I mean, the fact that you're- Our brother,

our, our brother is not alive.

So I mean, like- Oh, okay … just living, being alive right now after

all that is just- I mean, yeah

kind of a- For sure, dude … that's a, that's a victory.

Just- Yeah.

You're still doing it … okay, yeah.

You're still living.

Exactly.

And then, and- And you seem good to me when I, I didn't- Yeah … you know.

You- Yeah, no, no, I, I- I mean, I had no idea.

Yeah.

Yeah, which is g- kinda wasn't- I mean, well done, sir. That's all I'm saying.

Yeah.

It's like that's trauma that I don't think I could, a lot of people could overcome.

Yeah.

No.

And that's- No.

The same, my brother couldn't.

No.

So- Yeah, no … uh, so yeah.

No, no, no.

So, so yeah, no, you have to be really tough and, and, uh, mostly because,

uh, uh, I guess, uh, I got- The smarts from my mom Right So- Right

I, I was very smart, you know, since I was, uh, little.

Uh, something that I've learned to say out loud because it was, it's, it's-

Absolutely … it ta- took, took me- Own it, bro … a lot of time Own it Yeah.

But also I, I, I… Since I didn't understand what was going

on either in the house and the, in the school because I r- Right

I do remember people talking to me in this strange language, and I couldn't

be… Nobody spoke English at the school.

Uh-huh.

So, uh, I don't know, just try to figure out things and seeing the patterns.

I was terribly bullied and, uh… But, like, for, to avoid being

bullied when it was, uh, the recess, now I would run into the library.

Me too.

And, uh, so I, so I read the whole library.

No, I mean over the- Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah.

I didn't read the whole library, but I would- No … I would hide in the library.

I'm just- Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Anyway, KO, uh, we can stop talking about the family stuff, but

again- Yeah … I'm really sorry.

I appreciate you talking about it, but, like- No, no, no

I'm so sorry.

That's, that's gotta be hard.

Like- Yeah … do you feel like you've… Like, where are you now with it?

Oh, uh, uh, I mean, I… S- since I've been in therapy since I was 15,

and I'll probably- Yeah … stay in therapy- Good job … since I was- Of

course … since- Everybody should be in therapy- Well, I- … all the time

again, my history, I mean, it's… And, and also, I mean, I, I, I, I

have been, uh, on medication since- Sure … s- Yeah … uh, late 20s now.

I mean- I mean- Yeah … thank God these things exist.

Oh, yeah.

Because how do we- No, no, no.

I mean, I, I, I, uh, it took me some time to accept that I had to take

medication because- Yeah … uh, the side effects are not- No

no, they're no fun.

Yeah.

So, so yeah, I mean, I, I, I take that.

And so being in, in, in therapy, I kind of dealed with it and, uh, and, and all that.

And I think what, one thing that surprises a lot of people is that

whe- uh, in 2009 my, uh, when my, when my father got sick and all

that, so he lost, uh, half his lung.

Oh, wow.

And- Did he smoke?

… he also had… Yeah, he was smoking.

Right.

But he, uh, he had an infection in his liver that kind of

grown- Was he a drinker?

No.

Oh, no.

No, actually he didn't drink.

Just like Trump.

No, no, no.

I mean, no.

That's not a wonderful thing to compare your father to Trump,

but it's all right, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, it's a, it's a thing about control.

They don't, they don't wanna lose control.

Right.

Right.

So, so that- That's, that's an interesting point.

Yeah … so, so he doesn't, he didn't take any drugs- Yeah … or

anything because, because he d- he, he'd like to be in control.

Right.

Right, right.

So, uh … Well, that's my explanation, but, uh

So when he, he, he got sick, so he's really bad and all that.

So, I don't know, a few years ago, I, I mean, my mothe- my mom died.

Uh, my, well, my brother passed away, and then, then my mom passed away.

And so my father was alone in a big house that had two, f- uh, stories.

See.

And, um, uh, it was a big, nice house.

Sure.

And, uh, so I kinda decided- In Mexico City?

Mexico City.

Okay.

Yeah, in the so- in south of Mexico City.

So I, I, I, I, I had to move and, uh, I don't know, I didn't know a place,

and my father w- I mean, he was alone.

So I s- I just said, "Oh, okay. Well, well, I'll just grab, I'll,

I'll, I'll remodel." I mean, the house was a little bit torn down.

Yeah.

And I said, "Well, I'll remodel it and make a duplex. No- Uh-huh … just

two houses- Yeah, yeah, yeah … and then we'll do all that, and then I

can live in the upstairs, he can live downstairs- Yeah. Yeah, yeah … until

he leaves, and then when he dies, then we can move," blah, blah, blah.

I mean, I'm impressed.

Like, did you forgive him?

Well, no.

In your brain.

I mean, I, I think, I think I got to a place where it's like,

well, what he did is unforgivable.

But, like, acceptance.

But acceptance, yes.

Because the thing is, when I moved in t- with him, I mean, on the f- top r- I,

I … Well, it, it was to take care of him, and, and, and I, I try to m- make him

live like a human being because, uh, w- I, I had a, a therapist, uh, that, that

I, I've been through several- Yeah, me too

over the years.

Yeah.

But, uh, he, he said something that really, really kind of, uh, made a point.

They said, "Well, I mean-" Don't pay abandonment and abuse with

more abandonment and abuse Yes.

Absolutely So I said, "Oh, okay." So I try to started taking, taking care

of him so that he would live like, like, uh, in a, in like, uh, in a

dignified way as a human being- No, that's- And, uh, to whatever I could.

So, but just to show a, a little bit like, like, like, like-

Honestly, yeah … in your face.

No, I'm a better man than you No, not even that.

Wow.

I mean, it's just, it's, it's like this… Honestly, it's the best response

you could give to that situation.

Like, that's the adult response is like- Yeah … number one, you accept,

okay, we're all doing the best we can.

Yeah.

Some people's best is pretty fucking terrible, right?

But like we've all just gotta accept it.

This is the best that they can do.

Yeah.

And like you responding to that, like most people I think would respond to that

with like, "Fuck you. I'm never talking to you again. You fucking…" You know?

But like I mean kudos, bro.

Like- Yeah … way to step up into the pl- I mean, you stepped up to the plate

and that's like it- Yeah … it, it touches me in a way that I can't… Yeah.

Yeah.

Well done.

Yeah.

Thank, no, thank you.

Thank you.

You did the right thing.

Yeah.

No.

You did the right thing.

I, I, I, uh, I always, I always say that, I mean, I have this problem of

identity, so it's really difficult to say like what, what do I want to be?

W- I never knew what I wanted to be in life, so I've been everything,

a little bit of everything- Yep … and do this and that.

Uh, but uh, but the only thing I think I n- I kind of can say is

that on my, on my epitaph, no?

I, I, in my s- my headstone, I could- Yeah … I want, I want it to say, "No,

here lies a good guy." Oh, f- absolutely.

That's it.

Yeah.

No, I, I don't, I don't, I, I, uh … And, and it's kind of weird but I, I mean

kind of, uh, some people might say, I mean, maybe my daughter would say,

"Well, not in … I mean, don't you want it to say good bye father?" But I

mean, she, she, she's, she's old enough.

But uh, it's, yeah, she, she, she- Right, right, right

her birthday is, she's gonna have her 20 and 29th birthday tomorrow.

Well, birthday party.

Uh.

She's- Wow … tomorrow, so, so no, I mean … But no, we, we, we talk

a lot about- Yeah, yeah, yeah … I mean, I, I wasn't, I mean, I, I, the

only thing I've tried to say is that I was the best father I could be.

Of course.

And I think, I think, I think she believes, I think she knows that.

Yeah.

I mean, but, uh, but no, I mean, but yeah, I mean, there was a lot

of, uh- A inconsistency and- Of course … yeah Everybody's doing the

best they can No, no, no, but I, yeah.

So, so I did my best and, uh… But yeah, I mean, uh, she, she had a tough time

growing up Well, I mean, you, given the template that you were given as- Yeah

what a father is, it's an, a, a, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

So when did you leave Mexico City and go back to the States?

Oh, I, I, I, I never re- I, I mean, I, i- in high school when, uh, w- because,

um, when I got into high school, they, they, for, for mid- middle school,

they didn't ask, secundaria, they didn't, they didn't ask for papers.

Okay Because it was by, uh, it was f- I don't know, the law, whatever.

Whatever.

But, uh, but yeah.

And so for high school, they did ask for, uh, for papers, and that's when

I found out that I didn't have them.

I didn't know that we, I didn't have any- Oh, you were on tou- you didn't know you

were on a tourist visa the whole time

yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

So, so, so finally, I mean, I, I walk into the high school.

I had, uh, which the high school was, was, I had gone through

middle school in the same school, so it was just kind of next year.

Okay, now, so, so middle school then became high school, but

exactly the same school, teachers.

So were you going on visa runs, though?

No.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I never, I never went to the States.

After, after we came here, I, I- So they were illegally

living here- Yes … basically.

Okay.

That's- Yeah … I am somewhat American in a sense,

yeah … American-Mexican dreamer.

Right.

All right.

Yeah I get it.

Completely illegal.

Okay.

Now I, now I get it No papers.

Now I get it.

No papers whatsoever.

So we, we ne- I never went to the States- So they over, your parents

basically overstayed your tourist visa.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly.

For- Many, many years … 50 Yeah, yeah, yeah … or for about 13 years.

And, uh, so then after that, we, we ne- we had to get papers.

Yep And, uh, and also it coincided that a few months later, you know, uh, the

migra, you know, the immigration- Okay

showed up at our house and- Oh, well that's a good sign … and so,

so that kind of… So then, yeah, we had to take a bus to El Paso-

Uh-huh … which is the closest.

Right.

Uh, yeah, go there.

We just- It's a long bus ride … yeah.

Well, well, it was to Brownsville, actually.

It was Matamoros- Beautiful … yeah … beautiful this time of year.

Yeah, Brownsville.

Well, and- I'm kidding … we just cross, I don't know.

Yeah.

We just cross the border and cross back.

Okay And, uh, just cross the border, went to the consulate and- Oh, they

went to the consulate in Brownsville … took out another visa and come back.

Yeah, yeah, yeah … yeah … run back And, uh, but so yeah, when, when I started

going to the, to the States, it's was, uh, yeah, I mean, to me it was really weird.

I mean, I, like at that time, um, in Mexico, I think in Mexico

City, there was probably like three escalators in the city.

And I remember that was just- How many elevators were there?

Oh, but elevators are well known … elevators were f- before-

Yeah, no, escalators … they were before escalators, yeah.

Yeah, yeah Escalators, yeah Those were from the 19th century Which makes sense

because you're just, like, pushing…

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, 19th century.

And so yeah, they're more complicated, yeah.

It's like matches came after lighters.

Yeah.

Oh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's an interesting, yeah.

That, that I didn't know.

It's true story.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, but, uh, so yeah, l- just… I mean, to me, the United

States was Disneyland all over.

Um- Oh, right, right, right

I mean, it's, everything was- Yeah … wonderful and polished- Yes, yes,

yes … and happy and- Yes … whatever.

Like- Of course, yes … well, and, uh, yeah, I mean, the, the Americans actually,

they, they, they make a point of making it nice now and, and- What do you mean?

Well, I, well, especially because I, I, I, I went to, like, San Francisco, but

I'm talking about- Oh, San Francisco

decades ago Great town.

Yeah, deca- Yeah … decades ago.

But yeah, I mean, you, you look at the San F- the Victorian houses in San Francisco-

Uh-huh … yeah, it looks like, in a way it looks, like, a little bit like Disney.

I mean- No, it's true … uh, yeah.

Well, the simul- yeah, the word- Yeah … simulacra comes to mind, right?

Yeah.

Right, right, right.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So I, I… And we did go to Disneyland the first time I w- I, I went there Right.

I've never been to- So- I've been to Disney World, but not Disneyland.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But actually I haven't been to Disney World, so.

I think they're about the same, basically.

Yeah, and pro- and probably, uh, in Florida it's, uh, the, it's less

sunny and less hot because- Uh-

Anaheim is awful … it's pretty, it's pretty horrible in Florida.

I don't know if you've spent too much time- Yeah … in Florida, but they

get- No, I, I, well, I have been, uh- Like, 95 and humid, uh, every day in

the summer Yeah … it's horrible.

Yeah.

Pretty horrible.

Well, yeah, I, I've only been twice into Miami, uh, for, but just for conventions.

Yeah.

Not scientific, but- It's muggy there … conventions.

And, uh, the second time we, we got hit by a hurricane, so.

Well, then it was windy too, and muggy.

Yeah, it was, it was windy and wet and… Yeah.

Yeah.

So, uh, well, it was, it was an interesting experience because- Yeah

… whatever Oh, I love extreme weather.

I'm a big fan.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I, I, I, I, I, I learned to live my life without r- really fearing

all this stuff because it was- Right, because of your childhood.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, and, and, uh, I mean, one, uh, the, the one thing it,

it, it did to me is, uh, made me hypervigil- vigilant, you know?

That, that- Okay … that's a very common thing with trauma.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know?

I mean- Yeah … hypervigilant.

Like, like, I, uh, I mean, I walk into a room and I already know

where the exits are and whatever.

I, I, I- … but I'm not over, uh, when you said, you know, you send me a

message, I don't know what we were talking about, but on, on, on the WhatsApp, you

said, "Don't overthink it," you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I said, "Oh, no, no, no. Forget about it." I mean, that's what I do.

I mean- Oh, no, I do too … because knowing stuff actually makes me calm.

So, like, to give context, I only started- Meeting with Americans, with gringos- Yeah

… no, uh, because since I haven't found a job for more than two years now- Oh, okay

I might have to move to the States.

Right.

So I never sought Americans because I didn't really feel… I, I don't know.

I mean, the why?

I mean, no, I, I, I mean- You feel like a Mexican.

Yeah.

Okay.

I, I, I, as I say, I mean, my whole life is a id- identity crisis, so I don't

know if I, I, I, I can observe myself.

I, I, I really like your, your analogy, like, if you're, when you're in the

bottle, you can't see the label.

When you're inside the- Yeah, inside the- You can't see the

label when you're inside the jar.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

That, that one.

Yeah, I really love that.

It's not mine.

It's somebody else's.

Well, I know- I stole it, yeah … but, but that you s- you mentioned.

No, it's a good one.

I- It's a good one … it's the first time I've heard it, so, so.

No, it's a good one.

Yeah.

So anyway, uh, but, but I, I really like it because I say that's kind of a thing.

I mean, I'm, I'm just, I don't know, floating around here pickled, no,

and, and trying to figure out stuff.

But, but, but there's a label outside that people see that I don't, that I

can't see, and I, all my life, I've been trying to figure out what it says.

And the problem is that a lot of people tell me so many different things.

I mean, they say, "Oh, you're a gringo.

You're a Mexican.

You're this.

You're that." Yeah. "You're a scientist.

You're a, a, you're an artist.

You're a philosopher." Yeah, yeah, yeah. "You're an intellectual."

Yeah. "You're a teacher.

You're a this.

You're a that." And the thing is nothing… I mean, I, I wouldn't mind,

I don't mind trying to, if I, if I, I, I mean, I'd really like to kind of hang on

to something and, and just say, "Okay, this is what my label says, so I'll work

with that." But that's gonna change.

I mean, your labels- Well- … can be anything.

I mean, it's not- Yeah

that's the thing is like the label i- that, that should be another part of

the whole saying is like it, it's hard to see the label when you're inside

the jar, but, like, everybody's gonna read a different label on you, right?

Yeah.

Something like that.

Uh, and that's okay, right?

It's so interesting, though, like the…

I mean, if we really wanna get into the, the you you and

the you that they are you-ing.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

I had to do a self-portrait when I was in film school.

Oh.

And I had no idea what to do, and so what I ended up doing is I ended up

calling all of these friends and family that I'd known for many years and

saying, "Leave me a voicemail message."

This was in, uh, 2006, 2000 whatever, yeah.

So I said, "Leave me a voicemail message just talking about something

about me that you remember. Tell me a memory about me." And, and I was

like, oh, I'm gonna do a self-portrait based on what others see me as, right?

Because I think that's a big part of what our identity is in some

ways for a lot of people, right?

Yeah.

It's like the, the thing, the way that people see me and the way that I see

myself is, it, it intermingles, right?

Yeah.

Not to get too esoteric here, but- No … uh- Mm … it's an interesting

angle, um, especially when we're talking about the label ins- the, the label on

the jar thing because to me, it's mostly about perspective and just saying- Like

having been here for, what, seven or eight weeks now, it's not easy, right?

It's fucking hard.

It's fucking hard.

It's great and hard, and then it gets hard, and then it's great.

But, like, I'm by myself so much that it's very hard for me to have

perspective on the fact that, like, I'm fucking… I fucking d- l- sold

all my shit and moved to Mexico.

Like- … you, you do remember that, Jef.

You did that.

Yeah.

And this is gonna be hard.

You remember.

Yeah.

Anyway.

So did you ever live in the States?

Nope.

No, the, the long- Oh, I didn't know that.

I thought you lived in the States, yeah.

The longest stints that I've had is, uh, two months with, uh, my aunt when she

was in Houston after, uh, in high school.

Yeah.

I, I mean, when, when we started- Yeah, yeah, yeah

be a- to be able to travel to the States.

Right.

Yeah, we, my parents went, and I kinda went with some.

Yeah.

And I stayed two months in San Francisco but, uh, working.

I was in San Francisco General- Eh … uh, working as a scientist.

And, uh, but other than that, just like, uh, one week meeting

stuff or whatever Yeah, so maybe you should move to the States for

like a year, just see how it is.

I'm not saying it's- Yeah … you're gonna enjoy it, 'cause you probably won't.

You're probably gonna be like, "It's too expensive. It's … People

are…" Yeah, but- Yeah.

I, I, I mean, I … The most likely place that I would go, I mean, the, the one

place I kind of planned to go was, uh, LA.

Yeah.

Koreatown- Okay … which is, uh, uh, which is kind of in

the middle of Mexican- Mm-hmm

place because- Yeah … I, I … And, and because the, when I've, when I've

stayed in, in, in the States for a week or two, whatever, I mean, when I start

mingling, no, in the States- Yeah, yeah … um, I always end up with the Mexicans.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Of course.

Of course.

Right.

I mean, so, yeah.

So, so I sort of- You got your comfort zone.

You gotta go.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, because, yeah, I, I, that's … Yeah, the, the, those are my people.

No, I mean, it's just, just, just this feeling that I, that I, that … And

it, it, it is, it's kinda, it's kinda nice when I, when I, when I mingle

with Mexicans in, in the States because here in Mexico I'm a gringo.

Of course.

And it is real- it doesn't matter how much paperwork you do.

It doesn't matter- Yeah … how many- Yeah … 50 years or- No, you're always gonna

be- … 50 odd years- You're always gonna be … Yeah … and whatever, all that.

I mean, I've never s- I, I don't know what the American anthem sounds like.

I mean, uh- Oh, do you want me to sing it for you?

Well, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I know there's, uh- … Jose, can you see?

No.

Yeah, no.

Yeah, whatever, yeah.

So, so but, but just something like that.

No, I don't know.

But I, but I mean, I did have to sing the Mexican national anthem-

Oh, Cielito Lindo … every Monday.

I don't, I don't, I don't know that one.

No, I mean, I, uh, but I have to sing it every Monday on, in school.

Oh.

How does it go?

Mexicanos al grito de guerra.

What are the, what are the … So what does that mean?

Um, Mexicans- I got that part … at, at the sound of war take arms.

Uh, no, it's a very belli- It's a- Oh, yeah … patriotic.

Yeah, yeah.

No, no, it's one of the most- Take arms.

Yeah … Oh, yeah.

No, no, no.

And, uh- Kill the, uh, kill the, kill the bad people.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah, yeah.

It's, it's really … Yeah.

No.

That checks out.

Well, I mean, it's a, it's a state, it's a country that has dealt

with more, uh … It's, it's a conquered country- Yeah … really.

And that's one of the most interesting things that I've found

since I've been here, is to think about this whole America's the

country of the conquerors- Yeah

and Mexico's very much the country of the conquered in many ways.

Yeah.

And I think that's why Mexico and Spanish has more words for

love than, than America does.

I think that there's a- Yeah … direct connection there

I think it's all very interesting.

So you married a Mexican woman?

Yeah, yeah.

So I marry, I married and I was, um- And you were how old?

27. 27. Yeah.

And we'd been living together for about three years.

Okay.

And I, I was a little bit worried about… I, I, I didn't know if

I wanted to have, uh, children.

I mean- Sure, nobody does … because- Right … yeah, yeah … because of

all the things, especially with that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, um, but everybody kept saying that I would be a great dad.

I mean- Well, I'm sure that that's what everybody either hears, like- So… Yeah

… and it seems like you'd be a great dad.

You seem like a dad- Yeah … kind of guy.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I think the decision was hard because I

knew what it- Yeah … involved.

Yeah.

Now, since, I mean, my… I was 15 when, when, when my brother was born,

so, um, and I also have a, a niece, uh, that's, uh, also, yeah, younger.

So, but like, uh, I, I… and I don't know, people that I've grew up with

always had kids, and so- Mm-hmm … so I kinda knew what kids were about.

Of course.

I think about, um, my- They're the, they're the people that are

younger than us that are smaller.

Yeah.

That's what kids are about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, no, but it's a, it's a big- And they need things all the time

responsibility.

Yeah, they ne- yeah, yeah.

There are just so many needs.

Why?

Oh, oh, oh.

Just oh, blah, blah.

Yeah, no, and they stink.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They sure do.

Well, I know sometimes they smell nice, but then they, then they-

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't know.

So, so yeah, I mean, the whole thing.

And then, well, and then they get sick and you're, you're, uh- Yeah.

And then everybody gets sick- Oh, my God … and then you're like, "Oh,

you got it." And yeah, no, and you're, you're, you're… I don't know.

I was a very sick child.

So, so no, I mean, I was, I, I was very worried about deciding to do it

because I said, "Well, if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it right." Huh?

Sure.

Yeah.

You gotta.

I mean, that's what everybody would hope to think.

So, uh, but, yeah, so, so I did it.

I mean, so, uh, b- but that's, that's where I am Mexican.

No, I mean, because, like, not having a child was, would be something

that my, my ex, uh, would, um, w- w- was a little bit inconceivable, no?

I mean- Right.

I get it … because she's, she's a Mexican woman.

Well, it's like America was- Yeah … 40 years ago, right?

Yeah.

How long were you married?

Uh, 10 years.

Oh, wow.

That's a decent amount of time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My, my daughter was six when we- Mostly good?

Yeah.

I mean, uh, we- we're still friends and all.

And, and it's kind of this, uh- I, uh, at the end it was j- a

little like, I mean, we don't stand each other, what are we gonna do?

No, it was- Right … I, I mean, we don't stand each other,

but that's, that's a problem.

I mean, it's not that- Of, I mean, yeah.

I mean, that's the whole difficulty- Yeah … of, of relationships

in general is it- Yeah … just becomes, eventually it becomes work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so, so, so, so we kind of, I, as am- amicable as, as, as

possible we- No, that's good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so we're still more or less close.

I mean, we- All right … uh, I mean, mostly, yeah, we, we, we

see each other, I, I don't know.

I mean, we, we have no problem.

We- Yeah … talk to each other, we see each other.

I mean, we have a daughter in common, so.

Right, right, right, right.

So- Right … so, uh, no, no, no, the, it's all okay.

So, uh- And your daughter still lives here?

Yeah.

Okay.

She lives in the east of the… She, uh- Right … she, she lives

on the other side of the city, so.

Right.

I, I can, I, I, I, I live on a, in a hill now.

It's, um- Yeah, on the side of the mountain.

Yeah, yeah … yeah, the Chicuahuacan, and she lives in Lomas

de Tarango, which is another hill.

And, but it's on the other side of the city.

And- Oh, wow.

That's a hike … so, so, yeah.

Yeah.

I can see the, the, the, the hill there.

So, so I, this picture of the hill and the- But you can literally

kind of see- … horizon now.

And then, yeah, that's why I have to go there to … But yeah, it's like a

two and a half hour commute- I'm sure

if you don't have much traffic, so.

Okay.

So I'm just gonna say on the, from an outsider, here's,

here's me looking at your label.

Yeah, yeah.

What an interesting story.

You're born in the United States in Santa Barbara.

You are just moved to Mexico when you're- Yeah … three years old,

and end up basically being a Mexican.

Yep.

In spite of… You're Mexican blood, though, yeah?

No.

Not at all.

No Mexican blood at all?

No, not at all.

Oh, yeah.

My sister did a 23andMe and, uh, no, no, no, I mean, we're,

we're, we're, we're white.

Really, I mean, a little bit, uh, like, like a mixture of C- C- Celtic and Saxon.

But see, you look a little Mexican, though.

You looks like, what's his name, the director?

We talked about that.

Yeah.

Uh, uh, Guillermo del Toro.

Yeah, a little bit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

No, no, I mean, e- every time I, like, like, when I take an Uber or

a taxi, whatever- Si … and they ask, "Oh," I mean, "where are, where

are you visiting us from?" No, I mean, "De dónde nos visita, no?"

Ah, so then you tell them- So I, I always answer Tacubaya, no?

Which is this barrio, no, I mean, this neighborhood which is… Well, I mean,

it's just a working class neighborhood.

I mean- Yeah, yeah, yeah … a working class neighborhood.

I mean, yeah, j- just kind of… Uh, no, no, no, but, but- But what?

I live here … I mean, because I, be- because I, I also speak perfect Spanish.

No, I mean- Si … actually I'm, my Spanish is much better than my English.

I'm sure.

But, uh, especially w- w- written Spanish because I never… I mean, all

my classes, I, I always went to Mexican schools and- Right, of course … so,

so yeah, I mean- Yeah … I'll, I, I, I don't, I don't know how to conjugate

verbs and whatever, no- Right.

So, uh, uh, language acquisition- I mean, I naturally do it, but yeah … yeah.

What's your favorite thing about living in Mexico City?

It's, it's kind of hard because I don't have- You don't know, you don't know the

other things- Yeah, exactly … yeah, yeah I mean, what- Nothing to compare it to.

Yeah … as compared to what?

No, I mean- Yeah, yeah, yeah … I mean, all these trips that I've been in, in the

States, um, like I've, I've, uh, a few times I've stayed with friends, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I, so I kind of know- You get the gist … and I talk with- Yeah.

Yeah, and I, I've become friends with, uh, several people

from, that live in the States.

The States.

Mostly Portuguese and Spaniards and- Of course.

Of course … uh, so, so yeah.

But, but some Americans.

And, uh, so yeah, like, like I- I- I'll, I'll … I under- I've talked about

what, what's life, and they've come to Mexico- Same … and they, they give me

that, their opinion of the differences.

So, so I mean, the de- definitely the whole phenomenologic, I

mean, the whole experience- Yeah

subjective experience of- Yeah, yeah, yeah … being in w- there and living and

doing- Right … supermarket and whatever.

Porque I lived, I was here- Yeah … for, like, I don't know, a month and a

half or last year, and then another week, and I've met people here, but

then living here, it's a different- Yeah … the, the whole experience- Yeah

is different … no, no, I, I, definitely.

'Cause you have to make this world yours, and you have to break- Yeah … down

the walls and actually … Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so- And less like a fucking idiot gringo and- Yeah … yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so I don't … Yeah.

I mean, I, I think I, I would like to do it on my own terms.

No, and I- Yeah, of course

and, uh, the problem is right now- Whose terms would you do it on?

Oh, I mean, just the choice.

Oh, right.

The thing is right now I would like to have a job in Mexico that pays

enough or, like, become a digital hunter-gatherer- … and a whatever.

Yeah.

And, uh, and yeah, I mean, m- m- 'cause, okay, so, so I can do this in

Mexico or I can do this in whatever.

Yeah.

And just go to that whatever and, and, and, and do it, you know?

But, uh, but right now, I mean, I'm, I'm just … I, like many, many

Mexicans just saying, "I don't want to leave my country. I have to go because

I don't have any resources." Yeah.

"And I have to go get, go to the States to get a job." Yeah.

So would you- So, so- Yeah.

Yeah, that's not really fun.

Would you be an immigrant then or a expat?

There In America?

Yeah.

Oh I think, you know, I mean, this is the biggest conversation Ooh, ooh.

That's a, that's a, that's a- Because- That's, that's a big question … because

as I've said, it's like immigrant is, by… to many people, I don't know how

I feel about it, but immigrant to many people is a elitist perspective, and

it's basically saying poor people who have to go to another country to exist.

And immigrants usually integrate with the other culture- Yeah … and basically

are like, "I'm staying here because," and send money back to the people that

they came- Yeah … from the country they… Whereas expats are from wealthier

countries, generally gentrifying- Yeah … countries that they can come in.

Which I think is gonna be the story of the 21st century, really, is

international gentrification as opposed to local gentrification.

Yeah.

Because that's gonna be the… I mean, it's inevitable.

I mean, you can't… You can see the writing on the wall at this point.

I mean, people can complain about gringos and so forth coming to

Mexico City and raising rate prices, but it's not going to stop it.

Yeah.

Um, and you're gonna see this… I mean, you already are seeing

this in Portugal, all these other countries that are- Mm-hmm.

But I think that there's a double-edged sword, because I think

in some senses it's good, right?

'Cause there's businesses that are doing great.

Yeah.

There's, you know, blah, blah, blah, tax money, so forth and so on.

But also, it's a very easy cudgel for Mexicans to blame for all the

problems- Yeah … that they're having.

Whereas there's also a problem with not enough low-income housing, which we have

in the United States as well, everywhere.

Yeah, yeah, everywhere.

And yeah, so it's complicated.

Yeah.

Um, how do you feel about it?

How do you feel about the whole… 'Cause after 2020, there

was a huge gringo expansion.

Yeah.

There was.

Uh, I mean, that's when it seems like Americans discovered Mexico City and

were like, "Oh, we should…" Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I think that you've hit right at the place.

I mean, I feel Mexican 99% of the time.

Si, si, si, si.

And that 1% is, uh, that I, I don't think that it, it's

necessarily because I'm American.

Yeah.

But it's just because I'm more- I don't know.

Uh, I, the, the only word that's coming to mind, but I don't wanna

sound pretentious, but the only word that comes out is cosmopolitan.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah.

So, so, so I have a lot of, um… I, I have a lot of self-awareness of who I

am, like an individual, and who I am as a Mexican, and who I am as an American.

So, so when, when, when you say, I mean, what, what do you think

about Americans coming here?

I mean, you probably haven't noticed it in your neighborhood as much, but still,

it's a thing- Yeah … that's going on.

Like, there's anti- Yeah … gringo protests happening.

Yeah.

So it's like… Yeah.

Yeah.

No, no, no, exactly.

I mean, that's, that, that, that's the thing.

I mean- And I've seen the prices go up- Yeah … in one year.

Exactly.

Right.

No, no, no.

I mean, i- i- it is real.

No, gentrification is real.

But the, like, uh, I, I mean, I, I'm r- really weary… That, that's kind of the

point, because I'm really weary be- 'cause I look… I'm, I- I'm a white American.

I mean, for people listening.

You're grin- gr- like gringita, gringis, gring- gring- gringa, gringo-ish.

Gr- yeah, I mean, actually.

Gringo-ish.

That should be a new term for you.

Yeah, but people see me as gringo point.

I mean, they- Right, I get it.

I get it.

Yeah … and, and, and, I mean, you, you might see something different.

Not me, though.

Yeah, no.

Okay.

Because I, I'm very self-aware of what it means to be a Mexican and what it

means to be more or less American.

Right, I get it.

But at least I know what I am not a, an American-

Right … more or less, all that.

Right.

But n- this self-consciousness about… No, I mean, because cla-

the, the, the class distance in, in Mexico is, is, is almost like- I

mean, just in Si- just in this city in particular, it's crazy … like the,

like the caste system- Caste system.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah … uh, the caste system and, and, and- Yeah … I'm sorry.

I didn't… I've only read that word.

No worry, dude.

Shh.

But anyway, I, I've had, uh, I've had a lot of problems because since I grew up

with the servant class- Uh-huh … you know, uh, I talk… I, I, I, I do it on

purpose because I, I can modulate my, my, my accent and I, I, I mean, I can, I can

be in polite society and, and all that.

Right.

Same.

But if, if I just let myself go, I'm barrio, you know?

I'm, I'm really barrio.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And, and, and I, um… So, so I, I, I've had… I, I, I just lost a

friendship of 40 years because since I, I became, um, unemployed for two

and a half years- Yeah … I've had a lot of money problems, all that- Yeah.

No, yeah

kind of.

At least in their eyes, I'm poor.

I understand.

And, uh, so, so I had this friend, and I sadly have to say had,

40 years since middle school.

I've had- And, uh- … many of those, yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, and, and… But, like, he was gonna do some computer stuff and all

that, which I'm more or less an expert.

Same.

I mean, I kind of have…

I am an expert, but, but- No, yeah … I, I don't know.

He started treating me- Like I was a servant, you know?

Do you think it was because you were unemployed?

Yeah.

That's- I'm absolu- That's fucking bullshit, man No, no, no.

And, and I, I, I'm absolutely sure.

I've seen it happen.

We … No, it's something that has been discussed in, in academic papers, no?

That, that in Mexico- That your identity is ident- This- Is, is tied in with

your, your em- Yeah … your, your, your employment And, and especially

Mexico, because you have to think in, in Mexico, like, like in, uh, uh, in the

States, the, the middle class … I mean, the States is like, I mean, the, the,

the, the poor people are not, they're, they're not as much as the middle class.

No, I mean, the middle class- No.

No, no.

There's many poor people … middle, middle class is a big class.

No, I mean, that's the largest class.

Yeah, I mean, it was.

I don't know what it's like now- Yeah … but it's very much, you know, it's shifted

a lot with Trump, but- Yeah … you know.

But yeah, I mean, going … I, I think that that's one of the things that

It's a, I th- I think it's a good thing that like a, uh, advice, no,

for, for immigrants and expats, no?

To, um, to kind of take into account this conflict, no, that Mexicans has

because it could be, uh, you know- What, what's the conflict again?

Well, that denying this, um, this middle class, um, the discrimination

against, uh, the servant class.

The, the, the thing is- Okay.

Yeah, yeah … yeah.

I mean, even though, uh, because it's not- The looked down upon thing.

Yeah … it d- Yeah.

It, it, it's not racist because if you have money and you're,

you're indigenous- No, it's just judgy … yeah, I mean, ju- you can,

you can be … N- but it's, but it's, but it's a real, it's not just judgy.

No, it's, it's a whole, it's a very profound thing.

Huh.

I, I was gonna recommend, uh, to you, and, uh, I, I, I think

that you, the, everybody that is planning on being an immigrant, no?

Si.

If you're planning on- Or an expat if they're- N- well, actually,

uh, more for m- immigrants, no?

Okay.

Because if you, if you kind of want to understand Mexicans

and try to, to understand what they're doing and all that- I want

I'm an expat, but I wanna understand- Yeah … Mexicans as well as I can.

So there, there's a book, uh, from 1985, but anyway, uh, it came out in 19- 1985.

I, I was in high school and, and I really liked it.

It is called, it's from Alan Riding, and it's, uh, called, uh, Distant Neighbors:

A, a, a Portrait of the Mexicans.

Mm.

So you should look it up.

He, he's, um, British and, but he was born in Rio de Janeiro.

Si.

And he lived in the States, and then, but he was 15 years here being

the bureau chief for The New York Times, the core, the- Ah, si, si, si.

Yeah … so yeah.

He, he wrote it exactly to explain to Americans who were the Mexicans.

If you are an American or a British person or whoever, and you're

thinking about moving here, do not.

It's terrifying.

It is dangerous.

Uh, my guest right now has a gun pointed at me.

So do not move here because it is very dangerous, and it's horrible,

and tacos cost $18 apiece.

Okay.

Okay.

Now to your scheduled program.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I mean p- people in general… Yeah, I mean, this, this whole,

I mean, in, in, in English they say, uh, mi casa es su casa, no?

They, they say the same.

Sí.

Sí.

But, but, but it's actually, I mean, one thing that, uh, that… In, in Mexico,

uh, at least in Mexico City, they're, they don't, they don't say, uh, we

don't say that because I do it also.

Hmm.

They say, uh, like I would say, "Y ahí tienen su casa,"

there's where your house is.

Sí.

That, but, but it's really funny because su casa… No, no, no.

I will not even say that it's my house.

No, no, no.

We, we have to give everything to you.

It's your house.

Hmm.

No?

I mean, not, not, it's not our house, it's my house and it's…

But it's, no, it's your house.

It's the whole thing.

Hmm.

So, so yeah, no, this thing that they, they, if, if you're visiting, I mean,

sometimes I, I felt really bad because, like, you go to these towns and they,

they don't have much and whatever, and they'll serve you most of the food.

Yeah.

No, and, and, and there's no way to tell them no.

Right.

And it actually would be really rude.

Rude.

Yeah, man.

No, no, no.

You have to take it.

The, the, the- No, you have to accept it.

No, because it's- … the kindness level is really off the charts.

Yeah.

No, no, no.

The, the, it's really, yeah, it's really amazing, amazing, amazing.

Yeah.

I just hope that, you know, we, you know, there's a lot of talk about

how, you know, Mexico City's kind of like 40 years, 30 years behind

the United States in a lot of ways.

Yeah.

I just hope that Mexico City doesn't catch up to the United States in that way.

Yeah.

I, I do.

In the, in the, in the personal connection, uh, you know, uh, te quiero

so- Yeah … so on and so on kind of way.

Yeah.

The last question that I usually ask people, which is now out of place,

and I feel like maybe I should change it because I'm just gonna

be interviewing expats from now on.

What do you think happens when- When … we die?

Well, I w- I, I, I would like to quote a great philosopher called Keanu Reeves.

Absolutely.

The actor.

Bring it.

That, that he said, "Well, I think that when we die, the people that love us

are v- are gonna be very sad." And, uh, no, that, I mean, that was nice.

But mostly I, I, I, I'm of the

I, I think that whatever our, our consciousness is just blacks out.

Okay.

But, uh, but I don't think we're just our consciousness.

I mean, that we are also all the stories we've lived all over the place.

No?

Okay.

I mean, we are whatever and … Because our, our conscious is just kind of

this, um, thing that consolidates or kind of puts, pulls together all our

stories, histories, ideas, and all that.

And so whatever we've done in the world just kind of keeps going.

It'll be diluted and maybe remembered or not, but, uh, eventually.

I mean, eventually we'll just kind of dilute and just become entropy.

Do you think that we're still existing in some, uh, consciousness

manner once we, quote-unquote- Die … are, are no longer alive?

No, not, not, not in any … No, no.

I- Traditionally understood way, I mean.

Yeah.

No, exactly.

I mean, the, the thing is for other people we might still be alive in the

sense that, I mean, we're, our memories and our ideas, our things, whatever

we did- Mm-hmm … is still there.

Yeah.

For other people we're still alive.

But for us, I mean our, our own subjective- Mm-hmm

experience, there, I don't think there's any subjective

experience- You think this is it?

… after.

Yeah.

This is it.

Yeah, this is it.

And I've, I'm cool with it.

I mean, I don't have any problem with it.

I don't know how I feel about that.

Yeah.

Well.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Great.

No, thank you.

Thank you very much.

And there you have it thank you once again, Kayo for coming on the podcast and

sharing your story with us if you have any questions or comments or concerns

for the podcast or just for me you can send them to [email protected]

that's O-N-E-F-J-E-F-P-O-D at gmail.com

If you'd like to use your voice to express questions, comments, concerns,

anger, a poem, a song, whatever, you can call the podcast and leave a

voicemail message at 1-669-241-5882.

I was kind of going for, like, a Les Misérables thing there.

I think I got, I got it a little bit.

That's 1-669-241-5882.

Call that number.

Talk into the phone.

I'll play it on the air, probably, 80% chance.

Also, you can follow the podcast on all the social media channels: Instagram,

@onefjefpod; TikTok, @onefjefpodcast; Substack, onefjef; Facebook, I forget.

Sorry, Facebook, I forget.

I'm sorry.

You can search for, you can search for it or something.

You'll find it.

I've been neglecting the Facebook page, um, pretty badly, so… And it's

reflected in my attitude towards it.

Maybe I shouldn't neglect it because I think people still look at it.

But, uh, yeah, if you're in the Facebook group and you've been

waiting for updates, I'm so sorry.

I am.

I'm really sorry.

It-- There's so many social media things, and there's so little time.

And I try to spread it around, but I don't know.

It's hard to know where to spread your seed.

Oh, okay.

We gotta wrap this one up.

Uh, what else to say?

Oh, Patreon.

Patreon, Patreon.

Patrioff?

No, Patreon.

patreon.com/onefjef.

This is a completely independent podcast at the moment.

As such, I make it as a labor of love for you, the listener, and for me.

I get joy out of it as well, but, you know, it's free content, and

it's hopefully free entertainment.

And how often do you find that in this world?

Well, I mean, honestly, you can find it all over the place, but usually

there's advertisements in there, and there aren't any in here except

for this one for the Patreon page.

So please do go to patreon.com/onefjef and sign up for as little as $5 a month.

You can help support the podcast.

You can feel good about yourself.

You can get access to a bunch of extra content and more to come.

You can also sign up for $25 a month, you know, $100 a month.

Whatever you want, I will take it, and I will appreciate it,

and I will put it to good use.

patreon.com/onefjef.

And thank you so much to my continuing Patreon subscribers.