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Extreme Sickness, Intrusive Thoughts - Hyperemesis, Hallucinations and Healing: Sarah Edge (Part 2)
Episode 367th October 2024 • BLUE MUMDAYS • Vikki Stephenson
00:00:00 00:54:26

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In the follow-up to Episode 35 (Part 1), perinatal psychotherapist Sarah Edge shares her contrasting experience with her second pregnancy. Her debilitating experience with Hyperemesis Gravidarum (HG or extreme sickness) took a significant toll on Sarah’s mental health. Sarah developed postnatal depression and terrible anxiety after the birth, leading to intrusive thoughts and hallucinations. The experience was terrifying. Now recovered, Sarah talks about how she has used it to inform her own therapeutic practice.     She provides practical advice for others suffering from similar conditions and highlights the importance of seeking help early.

*Trigger Warning* Extreme vomiting, feelings of suicide.

In This Episode We Discuss:

[00:00] Teaser quote

[01:53]  Introduction to Sarah

[03:49]  Understanding Hyperemesis Gravidarum (H.G.)

[06:25]  How H.G. contributed to Sarah’s difficulty bonding with her daughter

[08:09]  Getting support and medication – the importance of being taken seriously

[12:46]  Advice for mums experiencing sickness in pregnancy. How Pregnancy Sickness Support helped Sarah

[16:00]  Much needed support from Sarah’s husband and her work

[19:58] Her second birth – no immediate ‘rush of love’

[22:39] Feeling ‘high’ then a crushing low – severe anxiety, intrusive thoughts and hallucinations

[29:30] A desperate visit to Accident and Emergency (A+E)

[35:47]  Starting medication

[38:13] Building a bond with her daughter

[42:52] Turning personal struggles into a professional passion – the importance of shared experiences

[50:10] Matrescence

Key Takeaways:

1.    Hyperemesis Gravidarum (HG) is a severe form of pregnancy sickness, affecting around 1-3% of pregnancies and causing incredibly debilitating symptoms.

2.    A 2020 study by Imperial College, London found that “women with HG are around 8 times more likely to suffer antenatal depression and 4 times more likely to have postnatal depression”.

3. For help with HG, go to Pregnancy Sickness Support. They are a charity dedicated to alleviating the suffering of all those affected by pregnancy sickness. They offer peer support and a helpline, 0800 055 4361.

4.    The HER Foundation is another great organisation, dedicated to helping those suffering hyperemesis and those who have survived it. Providing education, research, support and advocacy globally, to improve the management of HG.

5.    Listen to Episode 18 with Dr. Andy Mayers ‘Bonding, Guilt and Pyschosis: An Expert View’, to learn more about mother and baby units.

6.    You can learn more about Sarah’s therapeutic process through her Instagram page, MaternalMentalHealthWellbeing.

7.    Sarah has a Maternal Mental Health Journal, which can be purchased through Amazon.co.uk. It’s a guide designed to support mental health during pregnancy and in the postnatal period.

8.    Matrescence is “the process of becoming a mother. Those physical, psychological and emotional changes you go through after the birth of your child.” (Cambridge Dictionary)

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Next Episode:

Next time I speak to Kavita Trevena, founder of ‘The Unlikely Mummy’, a non-profit organisation and community supporting parents and families. Kavita talks movingly about her own experience of postnatal depression and post-traumatic stress disorder following the births of her two children, and how she has used this experience to help others.

You are not alone and will not feel this way forever.

We hope these support services are helpful (please note we do not check or monitor them individually).

Action on Postpartum Psychosis (APP)

Moderated Forum, click here to find out more.

Email: app@app-network.org / Tel: 020 3322 9900

AIMS for better birthing.

Email: helpline@aims.org.uk

This email will go to a group of AIMS volunteers and someone will respond as soon as possible. / Telephone: +44 (0) 300 365 0663 (leave message)

Andy's Man Club

A non-judgemental talking group for men

https://andysmanclub.co.uk/club-information/clubs/ info@andysmanclub.co.uk

Association of Postnatal Illness

Helpline: 10am – 2pm – 0207 386 0868 / Email: info@apni.org (Live chat online facility)

Best Beginnings

Free NHS-accredited Baby Buddy app offering 24/7 App support for new parents


Birth Trauma Association

Email: support@birthtraumaassociation.org.uk


CALM

Contact CALM on their national helpline: 0800 58 58 58 (5pm-midnight)


Cedar House Support Group

Email: lwise@talktalk.net (Liz Wise) / Mobile: 07773 283556

 

Contact: for families with disabled children

Support, advice and information for parents with disabled children.


Contact a Family

www.cafamily.org.uk

Contact a Family offer support for all childhood conditions, are also able to put families in touch. Featuring a directory of conditions and rare disorders online.

Helpline: 0808 808 3555 (lines open Monday – Friday 9.30am – 5pm)


Dad Matters

Support dads to have successful relationships with their families, with mental health and accessing services through peer support and signposting.

kierananders@homestarthost.org.uk

0161 344 0669


DadsNet 

Offers support and knowledge through a community of dads on practical parenting and fatherhood.


Dope Black Dads

A digital safe space for fathers who wish to discuss their experiences of being black, a parent and masculinity in the modern world. hello@dopeblack.org


Family Lives

An organisation providing immediate help from volunteer parent support workers 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Helpline: 0808 800 2222 / www.familylives.org.uk


Family Rights Group

Support for parents and other family members whose children are involved with or need social care services. Helpline: 0808 801 0366 / www.frg.org.uk

 

Link for information on Fathers Reaching Out

Run by paternal mental health pioneer Mark Williams, offering support to dads.


Link to Fatherhood Solutions


Scott Mair is a consultant in paternal mental health and parent education, Peer support trainer. Dad, Husband, Army veteran. 

 

FiveXMore

A grassroots organisation committed to changing Black women and birthing people’s maternal health outcomes in the UK. Email: fivexmore@gmail.com


Gingerbread

Single parents, equal families. Help and advice on the issues that matter to lone parents. Helpline 0808 802 0925 / www.gingerbread.org.uk


The Hub of Hope - A directory of mental health support around the UK.


Link for the Lactation Consultants of Great Britain – for support with breastfeeding.


LGBT Mummies

Supporting LGBT+ women & people globally on the path to motherhood or parenthood.

Email: contact@lgbtmummies.com


Make Birth Better (Birth Trauma Support)

Email: hello@makebirthbetter.org


Maternal OCD

Peer support available, email info@maternalocd.org to arrange


Mayah's Legacy

Supporting and empowering anyone who has experienced pregnancy loss to advocate for themselves. Email: info@bigoutreach.org / 0300 102 1596


The Motherhood Group

Dedicated to sharing and supporting the black maternal experience through peer support, projects and advocacy. info@themotherhoodgroup.com


Motivational Mums Club

Offering Trauma, Mindfulness and Meditation sessions for Mothers and Mums to be with an NHS Mental Health Specialist, who’s also a Mother. motivationalmumsclub@gmail.com


Music Football Fatherhood - hello@musicfootballfatherhood.com

Open conversations around fatherhood, including blogs, peer support and podcasts.


Muslim Women’s Network

Helpline: 0800 999 5786, open Mon-Fri 10am–4pm with support offered in English, Urdu, Punjabi, Mirpuri, Putwari, Hindko and Bengali. Email: info@mwnhelpline.co.uk

Online chat: www.mwnhelpline.co.uk / Text: 07415 206 936


National Autistic Society www.autism.org.uk

Support and advice for parents and carers of autistic children, including support to develop a greater understanding of their child’s needs and accessing services that meet the family's needs.


Netmums

Netmums offer peer support via their Maternal Mental Health Drop-InClinic.

 

NHS Services for Mental Health Issues

Contact your local GP surgery. Call the NHS on 111 and press 2 for Mental Health Team

or contact a local NHS urgent mental health helpline

If you are in crisis, visit Accident & Emergency at your nearest hospital.

 

PANDAS

Helpline open from 9am-8pm every day – 0843 2898 401

Email support available – info@pandasfoundation.org.uk


Perinatal Wellbeing Ontario

PRENATAL, PREGNANCY AND POSTPARTUM SUPPORT & CONNECTION in Canada

info@perinatalwellbeing.ca


Petals Baby Loss Charity - click for information

Petals offers free-of-charge specialist counselling to anyone who has experienced pregnancy or baby loss. Tel: 0300 688 0068

Web: petalscharity.org/counsellingcontact/ Email: counselling@petalscharity.org


Click for information on The Samaritans

Tel: 116 123 (this is a free telephone number and will not appear on the phone bill)

Web: www.samaritans.org / Email: jo@samaritans.org


Sands Charity information link

Emotional and practical support for anyone affected by the death of a baby.

0808 164 3332 /Email: helpline@sands.org.uk


Shout

Text SHOUT to 85258 to start a confidential conversation with a trained Shout volunteer.

 

Twins Trust

Twinline is Twins Trust’s listening service for parents of twins, triplets and more. All

0800 138 0509 / email asktwinline@twinstrust.org.

Web: twinstrust.org/let-us-help/support/twinline.html

 

Tommy’s

Tommy’s has a team of in-house midwives who offer free support and information for women and their families at any stage of pregnancy and after the birth.

Web: www.tommys.org

Email: midwife@tommys.org

 

MUSIC by Joseph McDade




Transcripts

SARAH EDGE:

A ginger biscuit is not going to solve somebody vomiting 30 times a day!

SARAH EDGE:

Hyperemesis gravidarum, or H.G., is extreme sickness in pregnancy.

SARAH EDGE:

It's what Kate Middleton (Princess of Wales) had.

SARAH EDGE:

Extreme vomiting, but also really intense nausea.

SARAH EDGE:

It's much different to morning sickness.

SARAH EDGE:

Still remains probably one of the most difficult things I've ever been through.

SARAH EDGE:

And it is linked with experiencing postnatal depression and prenatal

SARAH EDGE:

anxiety and depression because it is a really serious condition.

SARAH EDGE:

It can be really difficult to communicate to people around you how much you

SARAH EDGE:

are suffering because people know it as "Oh, you have morning sickness."

SARAH EDGE:

It was really, ---really brutal.

SARAH EDGE:

And I believe that that experience not predicted my experience of

SARAH EDGE:

postnatal depression, but I feel like it had a major impact and I

SARAH EDGE:

think it certainly contributed to it.

SARAH EDGE:

Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life.

SARAH EDGE:

But for many mums, and dads, it can be the hardest, and at

SARAH EDGE:

times the darkest of places.

SARAH EDGE:

Welcome to Season 3 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone

SARAH EDGE:

struggling with parenting.

SARAH EDGE:

You need to know that you are not alone.

SARAH EDGE:

And these awful feelings will not be with you forever.

SARAH EDGE:

Just one word - all the stories shared here are from the heart.

SARAH EDGE:

These are real conversations and may be triggering, so

SARAH EDGE:

please listen with discretion.

SARAH EDGE:

Your wellbeing is so important, so if you need to take a breather or stop listening,

SARAH EDGE:

please know that you can at any point.

SARAH EDGE:

Today's episode covers hyperemesis gravidarum (extreme sickness during

SARAH EDGE:

pregnancy), and feelings of suicide.

SARAH EDGE:

We will also signpost you to help in the show notes.

SARAH EDGE:

Thank you.

SARAH EDGE:

This episode was recorded ----- during the winter of 2022.

VIKKI:

Today's guest is Sarah Edge.

VIKKI:

Sarah is a perinatal specialist psychotherapist working in South

VIKKI:

Manchester, with a special interest in supporting women with infant-feeding

VIKKI:

guilt and trauma- usually following a period of difficulty breastfeeding.

VIKKI:

Sarah is a mum of two and suffered from anxiety following

VIKKI:

breastfeeding difficulties after the birth of her son, and P.N.D.

VIKKI:

(Postnatal Depression) and an adjustment disorder following

VIKKI:

the birth of her daughter.

VIKKI:

Writing has always been a part of Sarah's personal wellness.

VIKKI:

But after her experience of motherhood, she began to write professionally about

VIKKI:

perinatal mental health and infant feeding guilt and how to recover from this.

VIKKI:

Some of her work can be found at www.fedisbest.org and

VIKKI:

in Therapy Today magazine.

VIKKI:

Welcome to Blue MumDays - I'm so pleased to have you with us today Sarah.

SARAH EDGE:

Hi Vikki, hi.

SARAH EDGE:

I'm really excited to be here.

VIKKI:

So Sarah, can you tell us a little bit about how the experience

VIKKI:

was when you had your daughter?

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE:

So I know I spoke a little bit about my experience having my son, my first born.

SARAH EDGE:

It was really different having my daughter ... I suppose the first time I went into

SARAH EDGE:

it with maybe kind of like blissful naivety, because I didn't have a clue.

SARAH EDGE:

And then the second time I think I went in with this sort of confidence

SARAH EDGE:

of like, "Oh well I sort of know it's hard this time, it's going

SARAH EDGE:

to be different because of that".

SARAH EDGE:

You are often kind of prepped for the delivery's going to

SARAH EDGE:

be more straightforward, the second time you have a baby.

SARAH EDGE:

And I sort of thought that that would be the same for all sort

SARAH EDGE:

of areas of early motherhood.

SARAH EDGE:

I mean my pregnancy was very different with April, my daughter.

SARAH EDGE:

The birth was very different.

SARAH EDGE:

The immediate postpartum was different, not all of it worse,

SARAH EDGE:

you know, by any stretch.

SARAH EDGE:

But it did start on a difficult kind of foot, because I developed

SARAH EDGE:

hyperemesis (gravidarum) in pregnancy with my daughter.

VIKKI:

So what's that, for people who aren't familiar with the term?

SARAH EDGE:

Right, so hyperemesis gravidarum, or H.G., is extreme

SARAH EDGE:

sickness in pregnancy.

SARAH EDGE:

So a lot of people might know it because it's what Kate

SARAH EDGE:

Middleton (Princess of Wales) had.

SARAH EDGE:

So it's, I don't know exactly, I think it's suffered to some degree

SARAH EDGE:

in up to 3% of pregnancies, but I wouldn't want to be quoted on that.

SARAH EDGE:

Extreme vomiting, is the kind of like only way to describe it, but

SARAH EDGE:

also like really intense nausea.

SARAH EDGE:

It's much different to morning sickness.

SARAH EDGE:

I was signed off work for a number of weeks.

SARAH EDGE:

I didn't return to work until I was

SARAH EDGE:

17 or 18 weeks.

SARAH EDGE:

I was still vomiting at that point, but just a lot less.

VIKKI:

God you poor thing.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah it was terrible.

SARAH EDGE:

It is one of - it still remains probably one of the most difficult

SARAH EDGE:

things I've ever been through.

SARAH EDGE:

And it is linked with experiencing postnatal depression and prenatal

SARAH EDGE:

anxiety and depression because it is a really serious condition.

SARAH EDGE:

And it can be really difficult to communicate to people around you how much

SARAH EDGE:

you are suffering because people know it as "Oh, you have morning sickness."

SARAH EDGE:

And I've had morning sickness.

SARAH EDGE:

I had morning sickness with my son.

SARAH EDGE:

And whilst it's absolutely vile, it's horrible, it's awful, it

SARAH EDGE:

isn't anything like having H.G.

SARAH EDGE:

- they're very, very different.

SARAH EDGE:

And it was, brutal.

SARAH EDGE:

I think that's the, the word I would use - it was brutal.

SARAH EDGE:

And I believe that that experience kind of set me off on a path of not predicted

SARAH EDGE:

my experience of postnatal depression, but I feel like it had a major impact and

SARAH EDGE:

I think it certainly contributed to it.

VIKKI:

I am not surprised.

VIKKI:

I mean, it sounds so utterly miserable.

VIKKI:

I was very lucky that I didn't have much morning sickness, but I know how

VIKKI:

debilitating it can be when you feel nauseous or you're constantly throwing up.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

And how women who are going through H.G., how they can possibly

VIKKI:

carry on with their life and you had a little one to contend with at

VIKKI:

the same time, in terms of your son?

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, I didn't carry on with my life, my life as I knew

SARAH EDGE:

it, and and how I was a mother to my son kind of completely stopped.

SARAH EDGE:

So I couldn't get out of bed, barely.

SARAH EDGE:

There was very little I could kind of eat or even smell.

SARAH EDGE:

I was being sick up to 30 times a day.

VIKKI:

My goodness.

SARAH EDGE:

Probably sometimes more than that.

SARAH EDGE:

It was really, really brutal.

SARAH EDGE:

My daughter was a wanted pregnancy, so I'd tried to get pregnant with her.

SARAH EDGE:

But I was certainly questioning whether I wanted to continue with the

SARAH EDGE:

pregnancy because the guilt I felt for my son - because his mother had

SARAH EDGE:

just kind of disappeared, I was a shell of a person in a bed, vomiting.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, it was really, really hard.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think it probably contributed to difficulties bonding.

SARAH EDGE:

I didn't feel the same in my pregnancy, kind of emotionally

SARAH EDGE:

towards my baby as I had with Jack.

SARAH EDGE:

So when I'd found out I was pregnant with Jack, I'd kind of felt instantly bonded.

SARAH EDGE:

I did talk to my bump.

SARAH EDGE:

I did sort of hold my bump.

SARAH EDGE:

I liked to watch him move while I was in the bath.

SARAH EDGE:

I don't remember having any of that with her.

SARAH EDGE:

I kind of just remember pregnancy being this really painful, horrible experience.

SARAH EDGE:

I mean, I never enjoyed it the first time, but there was certainly elements

SARAH EDGE:

that were nice and I don't feel like I had any of that the second time.

SARAH EDGE:

So that was kind of a big difference between the two, yeah.

VIKKI:

Again when we talk about expectations of pregnancy and what it's

VIKKI:

meant to be like and what we're sort of shown in the media and in social

VIKKI:

media, is this incredible, glowing, wonderful, just joyous looking woman,

VIKKI:

living her best life, her skin - the best condition it's ever been in!

VIKKI:

Whereas actually for a lot of us, we feel really frumpy.

VIKKI:

We might have piles or heartburn, sciatica...

VIKKI:

you know, it's not always rosey like that, is it?!

SARAH EDGE:

It's tough on a body!

VIKKI:

Yeah, yeah!

VIKKI:

And how were you able to help yourself feel better?

VIKKI:

Were you given treatment?

VIKKI:

Was there self-help things you could do?

SARAH EDGE:

Yes.

SARAH EDGE:

So, I had, an amazing G.P.

SARAH EDGE:

(General Practitioner/Doctor).

SARAH EDGE:

She was brilliant.

SARAH EDGE:

T hey signed me off work pretty much immediately.

SARAH EDGE:

They diagnosed me with H.G.

SARAH EDGE:

So there was no kind of "Oh suck it up, try bit of ginger".

SARAH EDGE:

I was taken really seriously and that was really important.

SARAH EDGE:

I was given medication.

SARAH EDGE:

So the first one that I was given - oh gosh, Cyclizine, I want to say?

SARAH EDGE:

- didn't do anything at all.

SARAH EDGE:

I'd actually gone to the doctors saying that I wasn't able to keep

SARAH EDGE:

water down, I was vomiting, there was blood in it, s o I was concerned there

SARAH EDGE:

was something wrong with my stomach.

VIKKI:

That must have frightening.

SARAH EDGE:

It was very frightening.

SARAH EDGE:

It was very painful on my throat, the stomach acid had kind of begun

SARAH EDGE:

to wear away at my oesophagus and it was that that was bleeding.

SARAH EDGE:

So it was that that I could see, which is better than it being something kind

SARAH EDGE:

of going on and there being blood in your stomach obviously, but it still

SARAH EDGE:

meant I needed to stop being sick.

SARAH EDGE:

And the medication that I'd previously been prescribed wasn't working.

SARAH EDGE:

I didn't feel any different.

SARAH EDGE:

So at that point they prescribed me Ondansetron and that did work.

SARAH EDGE:

It didn't stop me feeling sick, but it definitely stopped the

SARAH EDGE:

frequency of how often I was being sick, it made it much, much less.

SARAH EDGE:

So that did help, but it wasn't a miracle cure.

SARAH EDGE:

My energy levels were still through the floor.

SARAH EDGE:

I was still very sensitive to smells.

SARAH EDGE:

I also had this horrible symptom, very common with H.G., where

SARAH EDGE:

I was producing excess saliva.

SARAH EDGE:

Which sounds kind of weird, but to the point where you can't

SARAH EDGE:

keep it in your mouth I suppose, when you start to feel sick.

SARAH EDGE:

probably should warn people before they listen to this, especially

SARAH EDGE:

if they're feeling a bit unwell, maybe give this episode a miss!

SARAH EDGE:

But that kind of salvation you get before you're sick, it's like that to an extreme.

SARAH EDGE:

And I wasn't unable to kind of swallow it down because that would

SARAH EDGE:

just make me instantly vomit.

SARAH EDGE:

So I was walking around with empty coffee cups, kind of having

SARAH EDGE:

to spit into it constantly.

SARAH EDGE:

And it was really horrible.

SARAH EDGE:

And that's actually a really common symptom of H.G.

SARAH EDGE:

and can definitely be kind of an indicator if you've got something like

SARAH EDGE:

that going on to go and see a doctor.

SARAH EDGE:

But yeah, so symptoms like that kind of didn't improve until

SARAH EDGE:

I was probably about my third trimester when I stopped being sick.

SARAH EDGE:

Some people that suffer H.G.

SARAH EDGE:

are sick the entire way through, they're sick through labour.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, and I had it relatively mildly compared to how some

SARAH EDGE:

people suffer - I didn't end up in hospital, I didn't end up on a drip.

SARAH EDGE:

But it's a really serious condition and it can have huge implications

SARAH EDGE:

for the mother and for the baby.

VIKKI:

Hmm.

VIKKI:

Yeah, yeah.

VIKKI:

When you're pregnant, you are very careful about what you eat.

VIKKI:

You are very careful drinking lots of water, good nutrition.

VIKKI:

Presumably if you're being sick all the time, that nutrition isn't

VIKKI:

necessarily benefitting you or the baby.

VIKKI:

So...

VIKKI:

what was done to sort of help support the actual growing of

VIKKI:

the baby and your health as well?

SARAH EDGE:

So my baby was growing fine.

SARAH EDGE:

She was on the 50th centile, whilst I was kind of really vomiting, which

SARAH EDGE:

was a lot different to my son who was always on the kind of 99.9th.

SARAH EDGE:

He was always, he was always big!

SARAH EDGE:

And my daughter was kind of averaging around the 50th, but she was growing

SARAH EDGE:

steadily so they weren't too concerned.

SARAH EDGE:

I clearly was keeping enough calories in to sustain a pregnancy.

SARAH EDGE:

I wasn't putting on any weight, but I wasn't losing masses either.

SARAH EDGE:

Like some people lose a hell of a lot of weight.

SARAH EDGE:

But once I stopped vomiting, her weight hugely jumped.

SARAH EDGE:

So she then jumped up to like the 99th centile like my son had been,

SARAH EDGE:

so clearly she wasn't growing to her full potential or to what, you know,

SARAH EDGE:

she would've done had I been eating adequately the whole way through.

SARAH EDGE:

But actually babies born to H.G.

SARAH EDGE:

mothers are often really healthy.

SARAH EDGE:

That actually your kind of body prioritises the health of the baby and

SARAH EDGE:

will make sure that they get everything.

SARAH EDGE:

Both my children have been grown on crumpets and lemonade and

SARAH EDGE:

like not a single vegetable or (laughs) barely an orange juice!

SARAH EDGE:

And they're both fine!

VIKKI:

That's to reassure any mum going through that or any mum experiencing

VIKKI:

fussy eaters that they will survive!

SARAH EDGE:

They will!

SARAH EDGE:

They absolutely will.

VIKKI:

Do you have any advice for women who are going through this or

VIKKI:

who suspect they might have this?

SARAH EDGE:

I think it's to see your G.P.

SARAH EDGE:

as soon as possible, you don't need to wait for it to get worse.

SARAH EDGE:

I think there's this kind of expectation that, "Oh well if I am keeping something

SARAH EDGE:

down" or, you know, "I've not lost masses of weight, then it doesn't matter."

SARAH EDGE:

Of course it does because suffering matters.

SARAH EDGE:

The impact on you matters.

SARAH EDGE:

So to see your G.P.

SARAH EDGE:

But there's also a charity called Pregnancy Sickness

SARAH EDGE:

Support and they're wonderful.

SARAH EDGE:

They have peer support they can hook you up with, because it can be very difficult

SARAH EDGE:

to actually even go out to the doctors to even actually make an appointment.

SARAH EDGE:

And I mean, now we're kind of in the era of Zoom and things are available.

SARAH EDGE:

But there are kind of people that have been through it that

SARAH EDGE:

can offer peer support to you.

SARAH EDGE:

So there are places that can offer you that support.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think to also kind of just know that the response from everybody isn't

SARAH EDGE:

going to be great because there's a lot of misunderstanding about the condition.

SARAH EDGE:

So when you are speaking about it, it's kind of that if it feels like you can't

SARAH EDGE:

tolerate or cope with misunderstandings, to choose who you communicate with.

SARAH EDGE:

Because it can be really hard.

SARAH EDGE:

I find it really hard to have like suggestions like "try

SARAH EDGE:

ginger," kind of "Oh I ate ginger biscuits when I felt like that".

SARAH EDGE:

To try and say to somebody that "that's not what this is".

SARAH EDGE:

This is different - a ginger biscuit is not going to solve

SARAH EDGE:

somebody vomiting 30 times a day.

SARAH EDGE:

It might help if you're feeling sick as you wait to kind of ingest something

SARAH EDGE:

and get some food in your stomach.

SARAH EDGE:

You know absolutely, that can be appropriate and good

SARAH EDGE:

advice in some circumstances.

SARAH EDGE:

But if somebody is suffering from H.G., just don't even

SARAH EDGE:

mention the word ginger at all!

SARAH EDGE:

That would be my kind of best advice, but definitely speak to somebody.

SARAH EDGE:

There are people that understand what you're going through and

SARAH EDGE:

there are doctors that are really good at managing this condition.

SARAH EDGE:

And you can request, you know, if you go to a surgery that's got multiple G.P.s

SARAH EDGE:

you can say, " Can I request somebody that has experience in treating H.G.

SARAH EDGE:

or somebody that is experienced in kind of maternal physical health".

SARAH EDGE:

You can request to see somebody with that experience, that's

SARAH EDGE:

your right to to do that.

VIKKI:

That's really good advice.

VIKKI:

So thank you so much.

VIKKI:

And I'll make sure I put the link to Pregnancy Sickness Support

VIKKI:

in the show notes so that people can click on that link easily.

VIKKI:

But it might be with the best intentions, but it just goes to show that advice

VIKKI:

can be - unwarranted advice - can sometimes actually be quite harmful.

SARAH EDGE:

And absolutely, it is with the best intentions, you're

SARAH EDGE:

right, that nobody wants to kind of further cause suffering at all.

SARAH EDGE:

It comes from misunderstanding and from not enough information

SARAH EDGE:

about the condition.

VIKKI:

But then it also feeds into what we were saying before with

VIKKI:

your experience with your son.

VIKKI:

It invalidates, you know, unwittingly invalidates your experience and the

VIKKI:

extremity of what you're going through.

VIKKI:

And I can see how that would have a harmful psychological effect

VIKKI:

when you are, you know, if you are battling something entirely different.

VIKKI:

So with your daughter, I mean, it sounds like a very, very tough pregnancy.

VIKKI:

Really tough pregnancy.

VIKKI:

How was your relationship with your husband at that time?

VIKKI:

Was he very supportive?

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, he was amazing.

SARAH EDGE:

I can't fault him.

SARAH EDGE:

It was really tough on him, he basically had to do everything.

SARAH EDGE:

My mum was coming up a lot to help take care of Jack.

SARAH EDGE:

He was kind of going into extra days of nursery.

SARAH EDGE:

I cannot imagine what it would be like to have multiple children and have

SARAH EDGE:

a condition like that, or not have a supportive partner or family around

SARAH EDGE:

that can kind of pick up that slack.

SARAH EDGE:

I certainly couldn't do it now, you know, with my two children,

SARAH EDGE:

that would be impossibly hard.

SARAH EDGE:

But it did impact our relationship and it kind of massively changed the dynamic.

SARAH EDGE:

I wasn't used to being sort of needing looking after.

SARAH EDGE:

It was very, it was very frustrating.

SARAH EDGE:

I think frustrating is the word I would kind of use to describe my whole

SARAH EDGE:

experience in motherhood - that I felt frustrated a lot of the time.

SARAH EDGE:

I suppose the feeling held back or not capable or, yeah, the vulnerability being

SARAH EDGE:

really scary and really not, not pleasant.

SARAH EDGE:

And it absolutely put a strain on you know, my husband.

SARAH EDGE:

His job at the time were not supportive - they didn't get

SARAH EDGE:

it, they didn't try to get it.

SARAH EDGE:

It was a really difficult time for us.

VIKKI:

I think what you said just then really resonated in terms of being

VIKKI:

frustrated when you're not well and I think a lot of us mums, we tend to be

VIKKI:

'doers' and we're so used to doing and achieving, that it's actually very hard

VIKKI:

for us to be incapacitated and actually accept that we are going to have to just

VIKKI:

take some time out and not be constantly striving for something or actioning stuff.

VIKKI:

And again, it just goes to show how little understanding there is with employers and

VIKKI:

how actually a bit of support from your husband's employer would've made a huge

VIKKI:

difference to your family as a whole.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SARAH EDGE:

And my employer - perhaps not my employer as a whole - but

SARAH EDGE:

my immediate boss was amazing.

SARAH EDGE:

He couldn't have been any more supportive - they were sending flowers

SARAH EDGE:

to the house and messages saying, you know, "Get well, take your time."

SARAH EDGE:

He was - and my kind of team - were really, really supportive and

SARAH EDGE:

it does make a big difference.

SARAH EDGE:

I've got friends that have had to drag themselves into work because they're

SARAH EDGE:

afraid of losing their job, they're kind of being sick constantly at work.

SARAH EDGE:

It must be so, so hard to manage all of that.

SARAH EDGE:

But I think kind of what happened for me and my husband Nick, was

SARAH EDGE:

we were like "Everything is going to be okay once the baby's here."

SARAH EDGE:

And it was perhaps that building up that expectation that like

SARAH EDGE:

"This'll be the hard bit.

SARAH EDGE:

We've had our fair share now of kind of challenge, it's all going to be

SARAH EDGE:

fine once she's here" and perhaps setting ourselves up for really high

SARAH EDGE:

expectations and kind of not considering that actually after a period of ill

SARAH EDGE:

health or difficulty, that you need some recovery time, that actually...

VIKKI:

Totally!

VIKKI:

... SARAH EDGE: I hadn't kind of factored that in.

VIKKI:

It was almost like, "Well the day I stop being sick, I'll just carry on my life".

VIKKI:

And actually I found it really hard going back to work, I

VIKKI:

really struggled with work.

VIKKI:

I kind of was desperate to go on maternity leave, I just

VIKKI:

thought "I can't hack this".

VIKKI:

Yeah, so it was, a really tough time and I'd kind of massively built up in

VIKKI:

my head that "Once the baby's here, everything is just going to be okay."

VIKKI:

And you know, you'd had your experience with Jack with the

VIKKI:

breastfeeding, and knowing that it's okay to go onto formula if

VIKKI:

you are really, really struggling.

VIKKI:

So what happened then, because you are obviously leading up to a

VIKKI:

difficult experience post-birth.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, so I did go into my second birth with more confidence.

SARAH EDGE:

I'd had a positive birth the first time.

SARAH EDGE:

There had been difficulties, but overall it was a positive experience.

SARAH EDGE:

I wasn't frightened of childbirth.

SARAH EDGE:

I felt like it was going to go more smoothly.

SARAH EDGE:

Because I knew she was going to be my last baby after H.G.

SARAH EDGE:

I was like "I'm not doing that again, ever!"

SARAH EDGE:

I knew she was going to be my last, so I kind of had got in my head like

SARAH EDGE:

"Oh, I'd really like the waterbirth.

SARAH EDGE:

I'd really like the whale music".

SARAH EDGE:

But I was kind of managing my expectations.

SARAH EDGE:

And with the feeding I felt really confident.

SARAH EDGE:

So I went to the hospital with formula in my bag, with sterilised bottles in my bag.

SARAH EDGE:

And when they asked me how I was feeding, I said "Well, I

SARAH EDGE:

am going to try and breastfeed.

SARAH EDGE:

I would like to breastfeed."

SARAH EDGE:

But I was kind of really clear that the single hint of a problem, like anything

SARAH EDGE:

- the tiniest problem with the latch, anything - I was like, "I'm going to be

SARAH EDGE:

moving immediately to formula, because I can't take that experience again".

SARAH EDGE:

And actually they were very supportive of that.

SARAH EDGE:

They were like, " we'll help you to breastfeed."

SARAH EDGE:

And actually, kind of immediately after the birth, breastfeeding

SARAH EDGE:

was established very quickly.

SARAH EDGE:

Her latch was really good.

SARAH EDGE:

And so I was kind of quickly confident that "Oh, actually this is okay.

SARAH EDGE:

I can do this".

SARAH EDGE:

And it almost sort of validated for me how difficult it had been with

SARAH EDGE:

Jack, because I'd seen then almost like how it's supposed to work.

SARAH EDGE:

That actually when it does work it....

SARAH EDGE:

I mean obviously it can work after difficulties.

SARAH EDGE:

And you know, the support being there is really, really important.

SARAH EDGE:

But actually this didn't feel like an ordeal.

SARAH EDGE:

It kind of felt natural.

SARAH EDGE:

She latched, she fed, there wasn't excessive pain.

SARAH EDGE:

She was gaining weight.

SARAH EDGE:

That all felt okay.

SARAH EDGE:

And I had my 'formula cupboard', I used to call it.

SARAH EDGE:

My backup, like my safety net.

SARAH EDGE:

And I just had this cupboard like full of formula and bottles and I

SARAH EDGE:

used to like stare at it every day.

SARAH EDGE:

And I'd be like, "If I need it, it's there and that's okay."

SARAH EDGE:

And I felt really sure of that and I never actually needed it.

SARAH EDGE:

Which was really lovely for me to be honest.

SARAH EDGE:

It was a really healing experience and kind of, yeah, everything immediately

SARAH EDGE:

felt like it was going to be okay.

SARAH EDGE:

I didn't have any rush of love when she was born, so I do remember

SARAH EDGE:

having this feeling of "Hmm, I don't really want to hold her."

SARAH EDGE:

I wanted my husband to hold her.

SARAH EDGE:

But I didn't worry too much about it.

SARAH EDGE:

I was kind of like, yeah...

SARAH EDGE:

The birth was kind of painful and I sort of felt like I needed a

SARAH EDGE:

bit of a "Oh!", like a breather.

SARAH EDGE:

And I didn't feel too concerned about that or about our bond.

SARAH EDGE:

And actually for the first kind of six weeks, I would say I felt really good.

SARAH EDGE:

So I felt like better than I'd felt like ever.

SARAH EDGE:

In hindsight I can recognise that I kind of was on a bit of a high

SARAH EDGE:

and what comes up must come down.

SARAH EDGE:

But I thought, "Oh, this is what it must feel like when you

SARAH EDGE:

have a kind of straightforward birth and breastfeeding is easy."

SARAH EDGE:

So I kind of put it down to that.

SARAH EDGE:

I was like, "Oh, well it must be that, and that must be why I feel so good."

SARAH EDGE:

But I wasn't kind of needing as much sleep.

SARAH EDGE:

, I wasn't getting much because I had a newborn, but I didn't feel exhausted.

SARAH EDGE:

So it was almost like "Oh!"

SARAH EDGE:

And a part of me was like, "Oh, is it something in the breastfeeding

SARAH EDGE:

that makes you like able to stay up all night without feeling tired?"

SARAH EDGE:

And all these kind of thoughts were going through my head and I was

SARAH EDGE:

like, "Oh no, actually I feel great".

SARAH EDGE:

But very, very quickly, so it didn't creep on me, almost...

SARAH EDGE:

my mood fell off the cliff.

SARAH EDGE:

It was like, I kind of woke up one morning incredibly anxious,

SARAH EDGE:

yeah, like feeling really on edge and kind of absolutely convinced

SARAH EDGE:

that I was going to lose my mind.

SARAH EDGE:

So for me, my anxiety very much centered around that I was really

SARAH EDGE:

worried that I'd got bipolar.

SARAH EDGE:

Because there's a family history, but also I'd had this period of kind of high

SARAH EDGE:

... not manic, but I'd been in a good mood.

SARAH EDGE:

And then now I was in this kind of real anxiety, depression and I was kind of

SARAH EDGE:

absolutely convinced that I was days away or hours away from a psychotic episode.

SARAH EDGE:

So I've never had a psychotic episode, I don't know what it feels like to go

SARAH EDGE:

into one, but that kind of really severe anxiety I was experiencing, to

SARAH EDGE:

me felt like "This must be what the edge of a psychotic episode must feel like".

SARAH EDGE:

And I was kind of sure that I was going to lose grip on reality

SARAH EDGE:

and I was going to harm myself.

SARAH EDGE:

I never kind of had the same worries with April about her.

SARAH EDGE:

So with Jack I kind of worried about him, that he was going to die or that

SARAH EDGE:

he was going to starve or there was something going to happen to him.

SARAH EDGE:

I didn't have that with her.

SARAH EDGE:

She sort of felt weirdly very robust and she still sort of does,

SARAH EDGE:

and I never worried about her.

SARAH EDGE:

The worries were all about my own health and my own mental I was really,

SARAH EDGE:

really concerned I was going to kind of lose my mind and then harm myself,

SARAH EDGE:

like that I would sort of lose my mind and jump off a bridge or lose

SARAH EDGE:

a grip on reality and crash the car.

SARAH EDGE:

There was kind of all of these really horrendous, intrusive thoughts and anxiety

SARAH EDGE:

that would either kind of pin me to the bed being unable to move, it would be like

SARAH EDGE:

paralysing, or I would become incredibly restless and my only way I'd either have

SARAH EDGE:

to sort of pace about or I would drive.

SARAH EDGE:

So I couldn't tolerate any whining or crying, that was kind

SARAH EDGE:

of what really would set me off.

SARAH EDGE:

And, my son had been quite a calm baby with a temperament

SARAH EDGE:

that was, you know, mild and...

SARAH EDGE:

there's no such thing as kind of good and bad babies or easy babies.

SARAH EDGE:

But he had a milder temperament and was less challenging.

SARAH EDGE:

Whereas my daughter really knew how to make her needs known and communicate that.

SARAH EDGE:

And she still does!

SARAH EDGE:

She would kind of cry and she had a loud cry.

SARAH EDGE:

And that would kind of really trigger off this anxiety.

SARAH EDGE:

And I couldn't tolerate her crying.

SARAH EDGE:

So if I drove around, she'd be more settled.

SARAH EDGE:

So we'd sometimes kind of drive for hours and then we'd stop, I'd

SARAH EDGE:

feed her, we'd drive a bit more.

SARAH EDGE:

and that probably went on...

SARAH EDGE:

I knew I was getting kind of worse and worse.

SARAH EDGE:

It was probably over a couple of weeks that I began to become more

SARAH EDGE:

concerned about my mental health.

SARAH EDGE:

I was hearing things as well.

SARAH EDGE:

So I was hearing kind of sounds that - lots of parents do this, but like, can

SARAH EDGE:

think that they can hear their child crying - you know, when they're in

SARAH EDGE:

the shower or when they're downstairs.

SARAH EDGE:

I was really getting that a lot.

SARAH EDGE:

And also I was having kind of very mild visual hallucinations

SARAH EDGE:

that I was aware weren't real.

SARAH EDGE:

I was imagining spiders walking down the wall.

SARAH EDGE:

And I'm not scared of spiders, so I always find that that's a weird thing that I saw.

SARAH EDGE:

Because you'd think if I was very anxious you'd see spiders because

SARAH EDGE:

you're sort of scared of spiders.

SARAH EDGE:

But I'm not.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, I was beginning to kind of see things that weren't

SARAH EDGE:

real, and I knew weren't real.

SARAH EDGE:

So I was becoming increasingly concerned that, I suppose all of

SARAH EDGE:

this contributed to the fact that I was convinced "I'm losing my mind."

VIKKI:

It must have been so frightening for you.

VIKKI:

Can you sort of remember how it felt in the middle of the night when your

VIKKI:

daughter woke you up and she was crying?

VIKKI:

That sort of extreme feeling of anxiety?

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, I suppose for me, the middle of the night wasn't the worst

SARAH EDGE:

time because my husband was there.

SARAH EDGE:

And that was another kind of really key trigger.

SARAH EDGE:

I didn't want to be left alone with my children.

SARAH EDGE:

I was really frightened about being alone.

SARAH EDGE:

So I would say I was worse during the day than I was at night, because

SARAH EDGE:

I was better if somebody was with me.

SARAH EDGE:

So actually kind of from the outside, if somebody was with me like a friend, or

SARAH EDGE:

you know, family member, they probably wouldn't have known I was that bad or

SARAH EDGE:

that what was going on inside was that disturbing to me or was to that level.

SARAH EDGE:

Because I was kind of much more relaxed if somebody was with me.

SARAH EDGE:

I really, really had this intense fear about being left alone.

SARAH EDGE:

But certainly I do remember that and I remember it with Jack, that kind of

SARAH EDGE:

feeling really anxious around sleep.

SARAH EDGE:

And then that feeling of when you're being woken up again, it kind

SARAH EDGE:

of, it just fills you with dread.

VIKKI:

You sort of go into that 'fight or flight', don't you?

VIKKI:

And your adrenaline's going, so no wonder you are even more exhausted

VIKKI:

and depleted because you are on such a state of high alert really.

VIKKI:

But I think that ' not wanting to be left alone' thing is

VIKKI:

probably a very common feeling.

VIKKI:

And one of the reasons why I committed to or decided to do

VIKKI:

this podcast was so that...

VIKKI:

Because I remember how it felt when my husband would go to work

VIKKI:

on a Monday morning and the whole week of being alone during the

VIKKI:

day stretched out in front of me.

VIKKI:

And I wanted there to be something for women like us to listen

VIKKI:

to every Monday if they were feeling low or isolated or alone.

VIKKI:

So an incredibly frightening experience for you, and it must

VIKKI:

have been very frightening to seek help if you were worried about the

VIKKI:

possibility you might have bipolar.

VIKKI:

So what happened?

VIKKI:

Did you speak to your G.P.?

SARAH EDGE:

How I got help was I'd spent a weekend afternoon driving

SARAH EDGE:

around kind of in one of those really restless, anxious states, convinced I

SARAH EDGE:

was about to have a psychotic episode.

SARAH EDGE:

And my daughter was like in the back of the car, kind of, you know, totally

SARAH EDGE:

oblivious - she was probably about 16 weeks old, maybe, something like that.

SARAH EDGE:

And I came back home and kind of entered the house and sort of

SARAH EDGE:

immediately said to my husband " I actually can't tolerate this.

SARAH EDGE:

Like, this feeling is intolerable.

SARAH EDGE:

Like, I'm going to do something to myself, I need to get help".

SARAH EDGE:

And I didn't even feel like it could wait until the Monday.

SARAH EDGE:

So I actually drove to A and E (Accident and Emergency), and

SARAH EDGE:

thought "I'm going to tell somebody I'm in a mental health crisis" and

SARAH EDGE:

that was what I was experiencing.

SARAH EDGE:

And this was in the summer of 2020, so we were kind of in a lockdown.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, all of those things definitely didn't help.

SARAH EDGE:

And I arrived at A and E, crying my eyes out, kind of clearly

SARAH EDGE:

looking very distressed with an, an infant daughter, like in my arms.

SARAH EDGE:

And I got to the doors of the hospital and a security guard

SARAH EDGE:

said, "What are you doing here?"

SARAH EDGE:

And I said, "I really want to speak to a health professional."

SARAH EDGE:

I kind of didn't really feel like I wanted to tell the security guard

SARAH EDGE:

that I was having suicidal thoughts.

SARAH EDGE:

But yeah, they became quite sort of like, "Well you need to

SARAH EDGE:

tell us why you're here here.

SARAH EDGE:

We're in a pandemic".

SARAH EDGE:

They were kind of kept sort of quite forcefully asking "What's wrong?

SARAH EDGE:

What's wrong?"

SARAH EDGE:

and looking kind of really concerned.

SARAH EDGE:

And I was really frightened in that moment because I was really aware - you

SARAH EDGE:

know, I'm a professional, I've worked in child protection previously - I

SARAH EDGE:

was aware that I was this incredibly distressed woman, like clearly visibly

SARAH EDGE:

distressed, holding an infant in her arms.

SARAH EDGE:

And I was like, "What do I do now?"

SARAH EDGE:

I don't want to go in because ... this isn't feeling safe.

SARAH EDGE:

This isn't feeling like a good, helpful situation.

SARAH EDGE:

But if I walk away, I was kind of aware that they potentially could

SARAH EDGE:

call the police to follow me with concerns the welfare of my child.

SARAH EDGE:

So I was kind of stood there like trying to make this assessment

SARAH EDGE:

of "Oh my God, what do I do?"

SARAH EDGE:

I'm really regretting this decision now.

SARAH EDGE:

Really worried about children's service is going to become involved.

SARAH EDGE:

There are going to be other professionals contacted.

SARAH EDGE:

But luckily, some health professionals had seen the kind of commotion at the doors

SARAH EDGE:

and sort of immediately brought me in.

SARAH EDGE:

And there was a perinatal mental health specialist there on the day, which was,

SARAH EDGE:

I mean, I don't know what it would've been like without her, but I got a

SARAH EDGE:

better response with her being there.

SARAH EDGE:

There was no kind of heavy handedness, there was no mention of like other

SARAH EDGE:

professionals or children's services.

SARAH EDGE:

She talked to me about how what I was experiencing was anxiety and it actually

SARAH EDGE:

sounded like I was having a panic attack.

VIKKI:

Hmm.

SARAH EDGE:

Which even instantly, that gave me some relief because you imagine

SARAH EDGE:

that panic attack is actually one of these episodes where you're kind of

SARAH EDGE:

rocking backwards and forwards and you feel like you can't breathe, or you're

SARAH EDGE:

going to die or have a heart attack.

SARAH EDGE:

Whereas that wasn't what I was experiencing.

SARAH EDGE:

And it was also not over kind of a couple of minutes.

SARAH EDGE:

Like I would have these episodes where they would last sort of hours.

SARAH EDGE:

But she was explaining to me how you can have these episodes of, of panic or panic

SARAH EDGE:

attacks that last three to four hours.

SARAH EDGE:

And clearly the way mine was manifesting was in this fear that I

SARAH EDGE:

was about to have a psychotic episode.

SARAH EDGE:

Um, but she was really good because she said to me " People that are about to go

SARAH EDGE:

psychotic don't usually know that they're about to go psychotic because they've

SARAH EDGE:

lost that kind of grip on reality.

SARAH EDGE:

So it suggests what you are experiencing is anxiety."

SARAH EDGE:

She was a mental health professional.

SARAH EDGE:

She said to me, "I've been where you are".

SARAH EDGE:

I know what it's like.

SARAH EDGE:

And I was met with so much empathy and so much understanding and non-judgment

SARAH EDGE:

. Because I was kind of begging to be admitted.

SARAH EDGE:

So I was saying to them, "I need to go in a mother and baby unit.

SARAH EDGE:

I can't tolerate feeling like this anymore.

SARAH EDGE:

I can't manage like this anymore".

SARAH EDGE:

I kind of felt like I needed - not that a mother and baby unit is a break or a

SARAH EDGE:

holiday - but I felt like that way I would have somebody with me all the time and

SARAH EDGE:

I wouldn't solely responsible for April.

SARAH EDGE:

So in the night I would be having like a full night's sleep.

SARAH EDGE:

I wouldn't be the only person kind of responsible for her, for feeding her.

SARAH EDGE:

I was really desperate.

SARAH EDGE:

And she kind of basically said to me, "One, you're not unwell enough.

SARAH EDGE:

And two, there isn't any space, even if I wanted to refer you".

SARAH EDGE:

She said, "I'm going to do an urgent referral to the

SARAH EDGE:

perinatal mental health team.

SARAH EDGE:

They will contact you on Monday., which they did.

SARAH EDGE:

And I kind of to them then about therapy and about medication and...

SARAH EDGE:

yeah.

SARAH EDGE:

And it started, to get better.

SARAH EDGE:

That was kind of my crisis pinnacle moment.

SARAH EDGE:

But it did begin to get better after that.

VIKKI:

Hmm.

VIKKI:

That must have been such a mixture of emotions for you, because on one

VIKKI:

hand, the relief that you're not going to have a psychotic episode, or it's

VIKKI:

very unlikely, that it is anxiety.

VIKKI:

But also the disappointment that you couldn't be admitted.

VIKKI:

And, you know, it's something that I've, I've spoken with Dr.

VIKKI:

Andy Mayers about, in another episode where we talk about Mother

VIKKI:

and Baby Units and about how they have such an important role to play.

VIKKI:

But what happens to the mums who are still going through a very, very tough

VIKKI:

and traumatic time, but aren't ill enough to be admitted in that situation.

VIKKI:

And, you know, sometimes those gaps in care can be so alarming, even, you

VIKKI:

know, for you in that very vulnerable, very distressed state, holding out

VIKKI:

till Monday can be really tough.

VIKKI:

Or if you take antidepressants, they normally say "It's going to

VIKKI:

get worse for the first three weeks and then they'll start to work".

VIKKI:

Or "You might be seen in six to 18 months", depending how long the waiting

VIKKI:

list is for therapy or counselling.

VIKKI:

So, yeah, it's really tough people to sort of hang on in there.

VIKKI:

So, so what happened after that?

VIKKI:

Was it a gradual relaxation of that anxiety?

VIKKI:

Or how did it get better?

SARAH EDGE:

There was a bit of a process with medication.

SARAH EDGE:

So I agreed that I wanted medication after that.

SARAH EDGE:

I had a reluctance to, to take antidepressants, but I kind of knew

SARAH EDGE:

at that point that I needed to.

SARAH EDGE:

But the first tablet that I was prescribed Sertraline and I took a dose of

SARAH EDGE:

that and had a really bad reaction to it.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, I couldn't stand up properly.

SARAH EDGE:

I had this sort of like horrendous vertigo.

SARAH EDGE:

I wasn't really sure if I was like laid down or stood up.

SARAH EDGE:

I didn't sort of know where I was in kind of space.

SARAH EDGE:

I'd lost my balance.

SARAH EDGE:

I was having really extreme suicidal thoughts, and I think

SARAH EDGE:

it's quite a rare reaction, but it's not completely unheard of.

SARAH EDGE:

When I spoke to the doctor, they said like, "Mmm, that's not

SARAH EDGE:

suitable medication for you."

VIKKI:

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE:

So what happened then was I was prescribed Fluoxetine, because it

SARAH EDGE:

tends to have less - well, this is how it's explained to me - that it has

SARAH EDGE:

kind of milder side effects, it also can be given in much smaller doses.

SARAH EDGE:

So they make it in like an oral solution, which means it could

SARAH EDGE:

be administered in tiny doses and very, very gradually built up.

SARAH EDGE:

And so that's what I did and that worked.

SARAH EDGE:

And I began talking therapies.

SARAH EDGE:

So I was having person-centered counselling at the same

SARAH EDGE:

time, and it was gradual, but there was an immediate relief.

SARAH EDGE:

I'd say within a couple of weeks I could, you know, I wasn't

SARAH EDGE:

in any stretch kind of better.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, I would struggle to say that I was 100% recovered or better now, I

SARAH EDGE:

think I'm still dealing with some of the after effects of that experience.

SARAH EDGE:

But it did , I quickly knew that it was going to get better and

SARAH EDGE:

it did quickly begin to improve.

SARAH EDGE:

But it was a long process.

SARAH EDGE:

And it wasn't linear either.

SARAH EDGE:

So it wasn't kind of, you know, from that crisis moment that it's just been

SARAH EDGE:

like this upward trajectory since then.

VIKKI:

I don't think it ever is, is it?

VIKKI:

It's...

VIKKI:

a massively jagged line, isn't it?

VIKKI:

Up and down.

VIKKI:

Up and down.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, hugely.

SARAH EDGE:

And there were definitely dips.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, there still is.

SARAH EDGE:

But I suppose I haven't felt as 'in crisis' as I felt

SARAH EDGE:

on that day since that day.

VIKKI:

And how would you describe your bond with your daughter now?

VIKKI:

Has that grown gradually over time?

VIKKI:

, SARAH EDGE: yeah, it grew over time.

VIKKI:

It took longer.

VIKKI:

It took longer than it had with Jack.

VIKKI:

I had this sort of instant sense of responsibility towards her, but the

VIKKI:

'love' feeling or the kind of "Oh I really love you" took longer to come.

VIKKI:

And this real sense of...

VIKKI:

because I, I was really worried when I was pregnant with her that I wasn't

VIKKI:

going to love her as much as I love Jack.

VIKKI:

Because I just couldn't imagine loving anybody as much as I love Jack.

VIKKI:

And so I was really frightened about that and about that kind of impacting her life.

VIKKI:

Like her being aware of the fact that I loved Jack more.

VIKKI:

And so when she was born and for a bit, I did love Jack more.

VIKKI:

Uh, that was really frightening because everybody had told me, "As

VIKKI:

soon as you lay eyes on her, that feeling will go, that will vanish.

VIKKI:

You know, you'll, you'll love her equally."

VIKKI:

And I was kind of like, "Oh no, I'm going to be like the one

VIKKI:

person that this happens to".

VIKKI:

And I was scared to kind of say that - it felt so, so mean.

VIKKI:

But there was a point - and I wonder how old she was, it's hard for me to

VIKKI:

remember - but as a baby, quite a few weeks in, where I did sort of look at

VIKKI:

her and think "No, I do love you the same now, I do know what they mean".

VIKKI:

But that definitely wasn't, it wasn't instant.

VIKKI:

But my bond with her is yeah, is, is, is great now, I love her.

VIKKI:

And watching her and Jack together, their bond is one of

VIKKI:

the loveliest things to watch.

VIKKI:

They just absolutely adore each other.

VIKKI:

And I kind of feel like what they have potentially missed out on

VIKKI:

in me, they've kind of gained in each other, if that makes sense?

VIKKI:

Yeah, totally.

VIKKI:

But it also sounds like they haven't missed out anything.

VIKKI:

With you, from everything you are saying.

VIKKI:

And I can totally relate to that, that sense of grieving, the time

VIKKI:

that you wished you'd been more open to the full experience of motherhood

VIKKI:

and the joyful side of that.

VIKKI:

But it sounds to me that they aren't lacking in any way, you know, and...

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE:

It felt like she was kind of very oblivious as a baby.

SARAH EDGE:

Like when I said to my husband on that day when I went to A and E, I said

SARAH EDGE:

"I'm going to have to go to the hospital."

SARAH EDGE:

Um, I knew I can't even have a breakdown in peace because she's

SARAH EDGE:

going have to come with me, because she wouldn't take a bottle!

VIKKI:

Yeah!

VIKKI:

(Laughs)

SARAH EDGE:

So I was literally breastfeeding her in A and

SARAH EDGE:

E, explaining that I felt on verge of a psychotic episode.

SARAH EDGE:

And she was completely like ignorant to the kind of chaos

SARAH EDGE:

or the crisis that was going on.

SARAH EDGE:

She was sort of smiling, it was like a day out.

SARAH EDGE:

We'd been in lockdown for most of her life.

SARAH EDGE:

She was having a really nice day.

SARAH EDGE:

She was smiling at all the nurses!

SARAH EDGE:

She the most settled she'd like ever been.

SARAH EDGE:

She was having a lovely time, but just totally, yeah, totally

SARAH EDGE:

oblivious to kind of what I was...

SARAH EDGE:

of course she was oblivious, she was a baby!

SARAH EDGE:

But yeah, it does make me laugh still that even in the kind of

SARAH EDGE:

midst of a breakdown she was still with me, still attached to me.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

Well, I'm sure that must rub off in terms of her adaptability

VIKKI:

and you probably don't have to tiptoe around her at night.

VIKKI:

She'll probably sleep through anything!

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, actually, she a really good sleeper now.

VIKKI:

I'm so, so pleased.

VIKKI:

You know, you've made a recovery.

VIKKI:

I think with a lot of us, it's never quite a hundred percent recovery, that

VIKKI:

there's always parts of the experience that you still need to process or lots

VIKKI:

of emotional connections with that time.

SARAH EDGE:

It's a trauma, isn't it?

SARAH EDGE:

And it's one we will live with.

SARAH EDGE:

We cannot undo that experience.

SARAH EDGE:

And there is, there is legitimate loss there, you know, that, you talked about

SARAH EDGE:

then that, that loss of it not being the experience you kind of wanted and that

SARAH EDGE:

the joyful part of motherhood, that really resonates with me because there was

SARAH EDGE:

no joy, there was just purely survival.

SARAH EDGE:

That's how I felt, like in that first year with April was just survive it,

SARAH EDGE:

just actually come out the other side.

VIKKI:

And for any Mums actually going through that now who are

VIKKI:

really struggling, it's okay.

VIKKI:

You know, don't put pressure on yourself to have all these incredible

VIKKI:

experiences with your child.

VIKKI:

And, you know, it is about survival and getting through it.

VIKKI:

And every day you get through it and keep going, keep going.

VIKKI:

But ask for help.

VIKKI:

Do get support.

SARAH EDGE:

Absolutely.

SARAH EDGE:

Ask for help.

VIKKI:

So you've actually taken your lived experience and that's

VIKKI:

actually really filtered into what you are doing with your work now.

VIKKI:

And the work you are doing with mums.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, so before I had my children, I was working as a

SARAH EDGE:

therapist and had been for years, but with children and families.

SARAH EDGE:

And after I had my son and that experience with infant feeding guilt and shame,

SARAH EDGE:

I kind of knew that perinatal mental health was an area I wanted to move

SARAH EDGE:

into, because I, I'd sort of said I wanted to have two children, and after

SARAH EDGE:

that I would go into private practice and focus on working with new mothers.

SARAH EDGE:

But after my experience of having April and having really lived experience of

SARAH EDGE:

postnatal depression and, this kind of just completely new experience of mental

SARAH EDGE:

health challenges, that kind of really cemented for me that I wanted to start

SARAH EDGE:

a practice that would've been useful for me, that I would've have wanted.

SARAH EDGE:

And I did have a wonderful therapist, but she wasn't a perinatal kind of specialist

SARAH EDGE:

or it wasn't a perinatal specific service, where what I offer, I exclusively work

SARAH EDGE:

with pre and postnatal mental health

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, I love it.

SARAH EDGE:

It's been so rewarding to do.

SARAH EDGE:

And it was something that, to begin with, I was, I was a bit worried, well,

SARAH EDGE:

when kind of, you know, the N.H.S.

SARAH EDGE:

(National Health Service, U.K.) perinatal mental health services exist and N.H.S.

SARAH EDGE:

free counselling exists, how will this work in this space?

SARAH EDGE:

But actually I found that what still exists is the kind of stigma around mental

SARAH EDGE:

health and people worry about things being on doctor's records and things like that.

SARAH EDGE:

That actually people like taking ownership of their therapy and choosing

SARAH EDGE:

their therapist and say, "Actually I want somebody that has experience of this".

SARAH EDGE:

And somebody that kind of can say " It's okay to share those disturbing

SARAH EDGE:

thoughts or those things that you are really worried about sharing."

SARAH EDGE:

Because actually it's really, really hard to say, "I've

SARAH EDGE:

thought about harming myself.

SARAH EDGE:

I worry that in the middle of the night I might harm my baby."

SARAH EDGE:

Like, those things are really terrifying to say.

SARAH EDGE:

And if you can say them to somebody that gets it, that can tolerate it, can

SARAH EDGE:

hold it and feel safe, then actually you can begin to move forward and

SARAH EDGE:

kind of move on from this experience.

SARAH EDGE:

But it is so important to have that non-judgmental and safe

SARAH EDGE:

space to work through those things.

SARAH EDGE:

So it's you know, I didn't know whether I was going to get enough work

SARAH EDGE:

with, only working with, new mums.

SARAH EDGE:

But actually I have, and yeah, it's been a really positive experience.

SARAH EDGE:

It's been definitely part of my own kind of, I suppose, like pulling that silver

SARAH EDGE:

lining from your experience or sort of making good out of something bad.

SARAH EDGE:

It's kind of felt important for me to do that because I'm now in a place where

SARAH EDGE:

I can say, "I'm glad it happened to me.

SARAH EDGE:

I'm glad I have that level of understanding.

SARAH EDGE:

I'm glad I have that level of empathy".

SARAH EDGE:

That I can work really effectively with women that are going through

SARAH EDGE:

the same thing and kind of give back following my own experience.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think I said to you before when we've, talked that this experience

SARAH EDGE:

has a hundred percent made me a better therapist, but it's actually

SARAH EDGE:

just made me a better person.

SARAH EDGE:

It's kind of changed my life in so many ways and whilst it has been incredibly

SARAH EDGE:

challenging, I wouldn't undo it now.

VIKKI:

It's amazing how many people have said exactly that same thing, and it, it

VIKKI:

was something I was reflecting on this morning about, you know, would I have it

VIKKI:

the other way that I'd never experienced the PND (Postnatal Depression)?

VIKKI:

And I really hope this offers a ray of light and a bit of hope to people that are

VIKKI:

going through it at the moment, that you will actually look back one day and think

VIKKI:

it's changed your life in a positive way.

SARAH EDGE:

Absolutely.

VIKKI:

How important was it for you, when you had your crisis moment

VIKKI:

with the perinatal mental health nurse at the hospital, for them to

VIKKI:

say to you, "I've been there too.

VIKKI:

I know what it's like."

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE:

It was a really big part of, I kind of instantly trusted her then, I kind

SARAH EDGE:

of knew that she could hold what I was was feeling and experiencing and that

SARAH EDGE:

she felt like this kind of safe person.

SARAH EDGE:

Because for me, certainly if I talk from my kind of own personal

SARAH EDGE:

experience, I had this real sense of "Unless you have been through this,

SARAH EDGE:

like how can you kind of hold it?

SARAH EDGE:

How can you understand it?

SARAH EDGE:

How can you help?"

SARAH EDGE:

I sort of had this real yeah, sense that I needed...

SARAH EDGE:

One, that I really felt like I needed to speak to women.

SARAH EDGE:

So I was requesting female doctors.

SARAH EDGE:

But also that it did help that she was a mum and that she had also

SARAH EDGE:

been through that and she 'got it'.

SARAH EDGE:

And actually I've had kind of similar feedback from my clients to say "It

SARAH EDGE:

has been immensely helpful for me to know that you do get it, that you do

SARAH EDGE:

know what it's like", or that "That kind of trauma I'm experiencing is

SARAH EDGE:

almost like reflected back in you.

SARAH EDGE:

I can see that that has been part of your experience".

SARAH EDGE:

And I think, you know, in everything we do, we bring who we are as people,

SARAH EDGE:

but I think that probably happens even more so, in kind of a therapist sense,

SARAH EDGE:

that we're often drawn to areas of work where we've been personally affected.

SARAH EDGE:

That kind of concept of the wounded healer is well known.

SARAH EDGE:

And I'm no different from that.

SARAH EDGE:

Like this became my niche.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think you do offer something kind of special when you have a

SARAH EDGE:

lived experience of something.

VIKKI:

What would you say to yourself, who was really going through it back then?

VIKKI:

What message would you have given yourself

VIKKI:

? SARAH EDGE: Wow, like trust the kind of process, Like

VIKKI:

patience - I don't have any!

VIKKI:

But to I suppose, kind of accept that it's a kind of long process.

VIKKI:

But that doesn't mean that you're going to intensely suffer for a long time.

VIKKI:

But that it is, it is a long process and almost like there's kind of not

VIKKI:

going to be this point where I...

VIKKI:

or it doesn't, maybe I'm not there yet.

VIKKI:

I don't know, like my daughter's two in April.

VIKKI:

But I don't feel like I could say "I'm 100% recovered" or there has been a

VIKKI:

point where I could say "It's gone now."

VIKKI:

It feels like something that I will manage on a long term.

VIKKI:

Perhaps kind of the rest of my life.

VIKKI:

I mean, I'm already worrying about menopause.

VIKKI:

I think, "God!", if this is what this has been like, I can't kind of face that!"

VIKKI:

Menopause is a massive ballache!

VIKKI:

(laughs).

VIKKI:

It's one of those things that's only just being talked about now, but Oh God.

VIKKI:

How our mums, and their mums generations and stuff, how they just coped with

VIKKI:

it all and didn't even mention?

VIKKI:

I mean, me and my friends, we're all about the hot flushes and

VIKKI:

the sweaty hugs of solidarity!

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, You know, in my research and reading around perinatal mental health,

SARAH EDGE:

there's a word for the journey into motherhood and it's called Matrescence,

SARAH EDGE:

and it has a lot of similarities to adolescence and to the menopause.

SARAH EDGE:

That they are these kind of distinct periods of a woman's life.

SARAH EDGE:

Obviously not everybody has children.

SARAH EDGE:

But even kind of going through that 'being of a childbearing age' and either

SARAH EDGE:

deciding not to have children, trying to have children or having children has this

SARAH EDGE:

huge impact on who you are as a person.

SARAH EDGE:

And actually is this life stage that comes with it it is a lot of

SARAH EDGE:

difficulty and a lot of challenge and I think those conversations are

SARAH EDGE:

so important because actually what do we understand about these things?

SARAH EDGE:

So we think that motherhood is about having a baby, but there's

SARAH EDGE:

so much more to it than that.

SARAH EDGE:

And menopause is more than your period stopping, there's

SARAH EDGE:

so much more to it than that.

SARAH EDGE:

But there's so much missing in education or conversation.

SARAH EDGE:

And this is why podcasts like this is so important, because they bring

SARAH EDGE:

the realities of what it's going to be like, you know, to either expecting

SARAH EDGE:

Mums, but also to people going through it, that they're not the only ones.

SARAH EDGE:

And there is kind of light on the other side.

SARAH EDGE:

Actually there is a life the other side of these dark times, where

SARAH EDGE:

you can experience joy in it.

SARAH EDGE:

And it can be a positive thing.

VIKKI:

But even knowing that you're not alone and that you are not

VIKKI:

going crazy, that these are actually parts of the illness and

VIKKI:

established parts of the illness and you know that it isn't something

VIKKI:

that you've brought upon yourself.

SARAH EDGE:

There's almost a script,t isn't there like a PND script?

VIKKI:

Yeah!

SARAH EDGE:

It's like if say, "I'm going crazy, I'm losing my mind.

SARAH EDGE:

I can't do this.

SARAH EDGE:

I'm a failure as a mum.

SARAH EDGE:

Like I'll never be okay.

SARAH EDGE:

I'll never be alright."

SARAH EDGE:

I mean, all of these things, they're things that kind of probably every

SARAH EDGE:

mum has thought at some point, but if they're happening a lot, then

SARAH EDGE:

they could absolutely be an indicator that you are struggling with P.N.D.

SARAH EDGE:

(Postnatal Depression) and to talk to somebody and get some help.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, and actually in services like mine, but others that exist,

SARAH EDGE:

you don't have to have a diagnosis of postnatal depression to seek help.

SARAH EDGE:

You can contact a therapist to say, "I want to talk to somebody.

SARAH EDGE:

I kind of want to make sense of my experience."

SARAH EDGE:

And that's okay, you can do that without.

VIKKI:

Absolutely.

VIKKI:

Several women I know have sort of come forward to me, since I started the podcast

VIKKI:

and were saying "I was never diagnosed."

VIKKI:

They would almost feel shameful that, you know, "Oh, I wasn't really

VIKKI:

P.N.D., because I was never diagnosed."

VIKKI:

And it doesn't matter, you know, if you struggled or you felt a sense

VIKKI:

of loss or a sense of grief...

VIKKI:

you know, everybody's experience is legitimate and valid.

VIKKI:

And everybody's experience is different.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah - there's not a blood test!

SARAH EDGE:

There's not a kind of conclusive test where they'll go, "We'll prick

SARAH EDGE:

your finger, we'll take some blood.

SARAH EDGE:

Yes, you've got P.N.D.; no you don't."

SARAH EDGE:

There's diagnostic criteria that describe a collection of symptoms.

SARAH EDGE:

And if you have experienced that, then it's possible that you've

SARAH EDGE:

experienced postnatal depression.

SARAH EDGE:

Some people like those labels and some people don't.

SARAH EDGE:

You don't need them to be deserving of support and of

SARAH EDGE:

treatment - you can have that without.

VIKKI:

That's a very good point you've made there.

VIKKI:

Our conversation over both these episodes has just been so inspiring.

VIKKI:

You've been such a fabulous guest and so much wisdom and also bravery

VIKKI:

in talking about your story.

SARAH EDGE:

Thank you so much for having me as a guest.

SARAH EDGE:

I've enjoyed it so much.

SARAH EDGE:

I think it's wonderful what you're doing.

SARAH EDGE:

You know I love listening to the podcast myself, so I was very

SARAH EDGE:

excited when you invited me on.

SARAH EDGE:

So thank you.

VIKKI:

Aw, thank you so much - thank you!

VIKKI:

The theme music is 'Sunrise Expedition' by Joseph MacDade.

VIKKI:

New episodes are released the first Monday of each month, available

VIKKI:

on all major podcast platforms.

VIKKI:

Hit follow to keep up with all the latest, and if you enjoy Blue MumDays, please

VIKKI:

leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.

VIKKI:

It helps more people to find us.

VIKKI:

Thank you so much.

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