Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 6 Episode 10 of People Soup, it's Ross McIntosh here.

In this episode I continue my collaboration with Dr Richard MacKinnon that started in Season 5. We're continuing our exploration of the processes of ACT and psychological flexibility. Our People Soup ingredient this week is Acceptance, it forms the first part of the ACT acronym and can be tricky to explain. We do so using potholes, arriving into Heathrow airport and sunsets. You'll also find out which one of us us a cheap chocolate girl.

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[00:00:06] And then a concept I quite like, which Wilson and Dufresne said, spotting sunsets. Thinking of something in your life that you're trying to fix or solve, like your body, your anxiety, your unhelpful thoughts, and what if it was there like a sunset, instead of a, a maths problem, what if it was like a sunset to be observed and enjoyed, not something you need to put energy into and solve it like a quadratic equation. And think about what can you appreciate about how it is, about perhaps other elements of it that are beautiful in their own right, and treating it as if it's that sunset.

[00:00:58] Our PeopleSoup ingredient this week is acceptance. It forms the first part of the ACT acronym and can be tricky to explain. We do so using potholes, arriving into Heathrow Airport, and sunsets. You'll also find out which one of us is a cheap chocolate girl.

[00:01:54] There are plenty of resources there. And you can sign up for my newsletter too. So let's crack on [00:02:00] for now. Get a brew on And have a listen to my chat with Richard McKinnon about acceptance.

[00:02:17] That word can mean very different things to different people. So what we're talking about here, very, very roughly, this is about how we deal with the uncomfortable stuff that shows up and, we increase our, our willingness to do the stuff that matters. So we accept. The discomfort, we don't struggle with it, there's layers to this that are worth unpacking because you could, you could just say that in one line and say, that's what it is and get smiling nods.

[00:02:49] Ross: yeah. So we've previously looked at the impact and the benefits of practicing diffusion. Getting distance from our unwelcome, unhelpful, unpleasant thoughts. And of taking committed action, moving towards the stuff that matters in our lives. So what does acceptance add to that? Acceptance helps us to make some space for that discomfort you were just talking about.

[00:03:28] Richard: This is often how I start explaining it because it can mean it's an existing English word. Unlike diffusion for people, I have no idea what you mean by that. Please explain it to me or even present moment awareness. The hint is in the name. So what we're not talking about here is simply putting up with.

[00:04:11] you know, hunkering down and, you know, that that's, I'm lost for words in describing that, but it's not that at all, because that's, that's energy sapping, really. And it's not really acceptance. We are persisting, but we're doing it in a very inflexible way. And an important point, it doesn't mean that we have to like or approve of the stuff that life is offering.

[00:04:44] Ross: It does, and I think it's so important because I think acceptance and commitment therapy makes a beautiful acronym. ACT, who wouldn't love that? And I think a lot of people get tangled up in that word acceptance thinking, huh. Everything's a bit shit around me. This means I just have to tolerate that and, I'm, as you say, I like that word, I'm not empowered, I'm actually disempowered.

[00:05:45] And you know what, uh, as I focus on the action, The uncomfortable stuff is along for the ride, but it's not a linear first do one, then do two, which is a trap it's easy to fall into before I take the action. I need to feel better about this [00:06:00] situation. I need to get rid of this stuff that's bothering me before I can do the meaningful stuff and acceptance says, Nope, you just need to recognize and rationalize.

[00:06:27] Ross: And hearing you talk there, Richard, I think this really emphasizes the link between our six points on the hexaflex and how they, how they act together.

[00:06:43] Richard: It's an excellent point. How could you accept the discomfort if you weren't aware in the present moment of what that discomfort was, or if you weren't practicing the diffusion techniques we talked about so you could step back from your thoughts and really see them just as thoughts, you know, how can you do this without taking committed action without those acceptance is a very disempowering thing.

[00:07:27] And in that sense, They're, they're mutually supportive and almost, acceptance is defined by those other things, looking at it in isolation. Uh, if that's all we spoke about, it could be quite misleading.

[00:08:04] I'm going to check if there's any traffic behind me or anyone behind me, depending on what sort of route I'm on. I'll avoid that pothole and go around it. And that's to protect my physical self. But if I'm experiencing psychological pain or distress, Consider that to be a pothole. I'm not sure whether this metaphor is actually working or going somewhere, but consider that to be a pothole. Quite often as humans what we'll do is seek to go around it or avoid that pothole that contains psychological pain or distress. we'll treat it in the same way as a, as a physical obstacle or threat. Does that, does that work at all?

[00:09:09] I mean, and so we can get in a habit of avoiding, avoiding, avoiding, unpleasant thoughts, feelings, situations, but all this stuff we don't want. Instead of Is it worth it? Is this meaningful? Is it a big deal? It's automatic avoidance of the thing. And as we've said before, when we talk about values, doing stuff that matters to us is inherently good for us, even though in the moment, It could be a bit rubbish, it could feel a bit crap, to use a technical term, but it's the direction of travel is important, and the ultimate result could be wonderful.

[00:10:02] Ross: So let's, let's talk about what it's more about. I think we're, we're, we're encapsulating that nicely, but I wonder if we talk about how it, it's about reorienting our attention and focus from avoiding that discomfort to actively accepting discomfort. it's moving from a barrier. Or something to be avoided, to being part of something more important, as you're saying, it's something in line with our values and what matters to us.

[00:10:39] Richard: That's tough, isn't it? The non judgmental piece is tough because we like judging. Our minds are judging minds. And so we, we want to compare, contrast, categorize, like, dislike, but instead we're not going to judge this and create this. a task of it, we're just going to accept what that moment offers. I've got two examples to share that might bring this to a grounded level.

[00:11:28] A short break from work. Very good for us, but it's not going to happen unless you decide to do it. And while this person steps out of their office and they sit in the park next door, some of the discomfort they'll feel with that situation is that they don't know what's in their inbox. They can't see it.

[00:12:12] or I need to get rid of that discomfort. So I'm going to go back to the office and quickly look at my email. Acceptance is saying what's really important to me is looking after myself and getting a break from work. And as part of that experience, my mind is of course giving me thoughts about the stuff that's out of my control. So just like diffusion skills are not about removing thoughts or changing thoughts. Acceptance says I'm going to do this thing. Despite the discomfort that is inherent to the activity, because there's something more important here. There's something more meaningful, or even more necessary. You know, simply the necessary pedestrian things in life just to get by.

[00:13:11] Ross: Ah, I love this example and I love the way you're talking about a break during the day and how we can extrapolate that to taking leave from work. In terms of, oh, I'm going away for a week, I'll just make sure I take my work phone. I was going to say work BlackBerry. Where am I from?

[00:13:36] Ross: I don't know why that word came into my head. I'm going to take my work phone, maybe my laptop, just in case anything big kicks off. so I can access that when I have this uncomfortable content that my mind is generating. that's a beautiful example because it really illustrates what we do next.

[00:14:09] Richard: Yeah, actually the part of us, that, that's it as well. We, we will waste energy, time, resources, trying to carve that out as a separate thing. We can somehow deal with separately. I had my own personal example yesterday. I spent our bank holiday weekend over in the beautiful city of Tallinn in Estonia.

[00:14:55] And all that represents, all of the crowds, noise, hassle, queuing, all out of my control. And I began to notice, wait a minute, I'm now getting caught up with something that one, I have no control over. I cannot dictate how, you know, the airport is there waiting for me. But more importantly, I'm missing out on this experience that I was actually quite enjoying.

[00:15:52] And it was a kind of a light bulb moment that actually the full awareness of that was quite powerful, was [00:16:00] degrading my experience in the moment and was also something that was inevitable. And it's funny how we can get caught up in that stuff. This is going to happen and I'm furious and upset about it, but it's going to happen.

[00:16:18] Ross: That energy is an important point, because why would you want to practice this acceptance folks? Well, it allows us to direct our energy in a different way, to pursue what matters to us. It, it, it relegates our discomfort to an ingredient, an experience, not as an obstacle or even a task.

[00:16:59] Instead, it's just, Accepting it. I'd like to share a quote, which I think is a really nice way of, of looking at this because I've heard it explained, lots of different ways over the year, but it's a, it's quotation from Steve Hayes book, a liberated mind. I've mentioned it several times, but I really liked this one.

[00:17:37] We're not trying to live a life that doesn't include that stuff. Because that way ultimately lies, uh, problems, but instead of, a grimace and a grunt and a begrudging engagement with them, it's an openness to it and an acknowledgement and kind of, yeah, once you do that, you stop the struggle with it.

[00:18:24] Ross: Yeah, so hopefully we're painting a picture of why you might want to engage in cultivating the skill and practicing it. And how do you help your clients develop this skill, Richard? Hmm.

[00:18:58] uh, it's attached to you.

[00:19:01] Richard: Rather than here's a puzzle you need to solve before you can do the next important thing. I like to explore with people how they have already exhibited acceptance in the past because I've yet to meet someone who hasn't got an example of it that they can draw on.

[00:19:38] So anyone who has persisted through an exam, an assessment process, an interview, getting a job, changing a job, they, they did things that involve pleasure and pain, satisfaction and discomfort. How did they conceive of it? And often many people say, well, it's a, it's like a weighing scales, you know, the anticipated [00:20:00] benefits outweigh the hassle factor or the fear or the pain.

[00:20:24] And then it's useful to explore, how is this discomfort different to that discomfort? And nine out of ten times, it's not different. It's the same thing. You know, so, I, I think that's a very empowering way instead of, here's my top ten tips for acceptance, it's, you do it already. Let's call it out. Let's link it to this present moment, this present context you're, you're maybe grappling with.

[00:20:57] Ross: Absolutely. Brilliant. Richard. I love that. I love that, because what we're doing is there is retrospective noticing. And quite often, we're going through life at such a pace that we don't look back and think, Oh, blimey, I did that in the face of challenges and I was pursuing something that was important to me.

[00:21:25] Richard: Absolutely. How about you? How do you bring this to life with your clients?

[00:21:48] But again, exploring how they've done that, what, what did it feel like at the time, how, how they motivated themselves. It's very similar, but again, it allows us to transpose that onto the, [00:22:00] the current challenge. And as you say, it's, it's skills they have already. So part of our job is to reveal them to people and help them apply them in a more workable and, uh, an effective way. And sometimes I'll use an acronym, which is from a paper by Robinson, Gould and Strozzel from 2011. I did a course with them a while back and they used an acronym, TEAMS. in that training. And I really loved it and I've incorporated that into my practice.

[00:24:02] Richard: It is. And it's also, it's parallel cousin, if you like that toxic positivity that I want to negate your discomfort with a positive. So you should cheer up because I've told you something positive, which doesn't really listen to or acknowledge your point of view. So there is a societal, Western societal bias against a lot of positive feelings.

[00:24:46] Ross: Hmm. Lovely. And how do you practice acceptance yourself, Richard?

[00:25:14] And the answer is no, but it depends. So let's imagine that, you know, my anxiety about rejection is, preventing me from putting my hat in the ring for a promotion. You know, you're letting that dictate your behavior and it's not helping you in the long run. But imagine you're being harassed or picked on, you know, you could take helpful action about that and you don't need to accept the feelings that come from the bad behavior of others.

[00:26:06] And so something bad happens, we're going to feel bad about that. What next? Rather than, well, acceptance implies I can't do anything. I just have to take it. And it's not, it's don't let the emotion, the thought, the sensation tell you what to do.

[00:26:25] Richard: Yeah. And it depends which direction we're looking at this from.

[00:26:39] you in

[00:26:40] Richard: It's really great. And in terms of what I do myself, I, I keep it simple, which works for me, but I remember the sort of mantras. this is part of the experience or it's all part of this experience.

[00:27:13] Well, waiting is part of the experience. There's no getting away from that. Or if it's something that's uncomfortable at an interpersonal level, I remind myself that what I'm doing is doing something that really matters. And that moves it away from I'm doing something nice, I'm doing something not so nice.

[00:27:57] So, explore the [00:28:00] workability. Of my behavior. which it sometimes it reminds me of, and we're going back into superhero realms here now, but maybe listeners will remember that disbelieving Thor face, uh, from one of the movies, he keeps pulling this really face and I have this kind of mental image of, yeah, that, that's fine.

[00:28:51] I don't need to say my piece, give my feedback, try and get that new job. So if we are honest with ourselves about how we're dealing with thoughts and emotions and also the impact of our behavior, we're then, I argue, better able to see the discomfort as being part of the package rather than the focus.

[00:29:13] Ross: It does. It makes perfect sense and I love that, that honesty because we can kid ourselves.

[00:29:38] Ross: Yeah.

[00:30:05] Ross: Because I'm noticing my real resistance to putting dates in, and I'm not sure what that's about. Is it? Is it kind of functional for me? Is it, is it the building blocks that go, let's do this bit first and this bit first, then looking at the landscape, then we put the dates in or am I just being avoidant and not wanting to be tied down like the free spirit that I am? And it was so useful just to be able to have that conversation because we

[00:30:33] Ross: and it helped us realize a way forward and recognize that I probably wasn't being. avoidant. I was just wanting to take it in that step by step basis on this occasion. But I do love your mantras because there's something my dear mum used to always say, and this is, this is sort of family wisdom, and she used to say it's all part of life's rich tapestry. And it kind of became a joke between us, Like something a bit shit would happen and we go, yeah, I know what you're going to say, it's all part of a nice rich tapestry. But it, it does work. It does work. I even, I even got to the point once where I did a cartoon about it, but that's a whole nother story. But what else do I do? Personally, I like to get better at spotting my teams. Remember those thoughts, emotions, actions, memories, sensations, and how they impact in my life. So if I've had a thought of, um, chocolate, and I found myself going to the fridge in the kitchen, trying, and it doesn't always work, but luckily, well I don't know if this is luckily or not, but I'm a cheap chocolate girl. My husband likes posh chocolate. You know this one where it's got

[00:32:11] Sorry folks, I've gone off on a slight

[00:32:17] Ross: Hey, cream eggs and whispers, we're open. Posh Chocolate, sponsor Richard. See, it's like the ying and the yang

[00:32:29] Ross: temptation for chocolate, if I can notice that urge, that action in play, I can then pause and then decide, do I want to pursue that for my longer term goals, or is this just the relief of an urge?

[00:33:08] Do I have an inner experience where I'm avoiding that pothole of psychological distress? And Because that avoidant behavior consumes resources, and those resources could be used for me moving towards what matters to me. That avoidant behavior restricts me too, and keeps me stuck in loops, just going round and round and round, and each time I go around that loop I feel more frustrated. So sorry about that little tangential chocolate

[00:33:51] and the stuff that can make it more difficult to practice acceptance. There's a few points worth flagging up here. I mean, one, you've sort of touched on there around the [00:34:00] urges.

[00:34:21] And being able to see that as qualitatively different from real risk, danger, and pain. is really, really key. So let's not try and make a hierarchy of discomfort, but just see it for what it is. Cause then we're removing more of the excuses for an action. If we are still falling into that trap of, I will do the thing.

[00:35:04] I shouldn't have to put up with this. Or this shouldn't happen to me. Or, um, any of the sort of repetitive, uh, rumination type thinking about the injustice of this, you know, bad stuff shouldn't happen to good people. You know what, that's the antithesis of acceptance because you're imagining a world where everything is different and you're not acting in your interests or in line with what's important to you.

[00:35:50] Or not believing that it's easy because someone else has done it. It's your discomfort. It exists as a function of your mind only. And [00:36:00] if you've got a habit, a very strong habit of experiential avoidance to begin with, that's going to take more work than me simply explaining to you conceptually what acceptance is.

[00:36:34] And remember that doesn't look like inaction. It can just like look like action in the opposite direction, you know, getting out of Dodge or avoiding Dodge completely or making a lot of noise in another space so that they don't have to deal with the other thing. So there's a few things that can make it more, more, more difficult than it needs to be.

[00:37:11] We're just saying it's along for the ride. And I'm prepared to, or I'm willing to, and that's almost magical when we say that to ourselves. You know, I'm prepared to accept this. I'm willing to experience this because, and the because really needs to be followed by something that's a bit higher order. You know, because it matters, because it's important, because that's where I want to get to, because that's me being the kind of person I want to be.

[00:37:56] Ross: yeah, the willingness word is, is super useful. It doesn't make a [00:38:00] nice acronym.

[00:38:03] Ross: Hey, I'm a practitioner in WCT. Hey.

[00:38:11] Ross: So. Richard, would it be useful to do a little recap, do you think? How people can make a start with it?

[00:38:29] But I did see someone describe it in a little bit like this at a conference in the last few years. It was sort of present check, diffused check, you know, well, hold on. It doesn't really work that way.

[00:39:21] Is it helping you? Is it helping you be the kind of person you want to be? Or is the discomfort kind of dictating what happens here? Or are you trying to work around it to such an extent that it's changing who you want to be or how you want to be? I think the prepared to accept phrase is a really useful, useful one here because I'm not, everything has a goal and not all coaching revolves around goals.

[00:40:08] It's almost like in business terms when, you know, we're doing a big program. of doing a pre mortem, let's think of all the things that could go wrong to see if we can account for them and plan around them and be realistic about it and not go in all Pollyanna and over optimistic. It's the same. It's like, well, if I'm going to do this meaningful thing, what, what kinds of ick am I prepared to accept, uh, along the way?

[00:40:54] Maybe you're missing a clear goal to attain, or maybe you are unclear on what the next step could be. What's your, your towards move in this situation, but we can learn a lot from our past selves, in both directions. So thinking in those terms can be really helpful too.

[00:42:13] Richard: lovely. That's not one I've come across before. I think that's a really nice way of putting it because it's all about perspective then, isn't it? Rather than finding a solution, it's just something to be experienced. That's a really, really nice, way of summarizing the whole, the whole point of acceptance.

[00:42:43] Ross: That's it folks. My chat with Richard on acceptance in the bag Next week, we're back with the first part of my chat with Dr. Eric Goodman, a return guest.

[00:43:12] Where at Ross Mcco on Instagram at People Soup and on Facebook at People Soup Pod.

[00:43:35] But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, Peasoopers, and bye for now.

[00:43:50] 70%, 90%. That's not so much my palate. I'm more of a cream egg boy. or a whisper. [00:44:00] And we don't tend to have them in the house. So I noticed that the high percentage cocoa bean is not for me. For me it tastes like soil. But um, that's a whole other story.