Dr. Kat Sutherland (PhD), assistant professor at the Ontario Veterinary College, joins Dr. Andy Roark to tackle a question every new grad wrestles with, how do you speak up and create change without feeling like you’re overstepping? In this episode, they dive into change management for early career veterinarians, unpacking the real barriers like confidence dips, imposter syndrome, and unclear communication skills. You’ll hear practical strategies for getting buy-in from your team, navigating resistance, and advocating for yourself without burning bridges. They also explore the reality that not every idea lands, not every change happens quickly, and sometimes success is simply doing your best within your control. If you’ve ever felt unheard, hesitant, or unsure how to lead as a new doctor, this conversation will leave you feeling more grounded, capable, and ready to take thoughtful action. This episode is brought to you by Hill's Pet Nutrition!

AVMA Landing Page with info for registration: https://www.avma.org/events/avma-convention?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23627178955&gbraid=0AAAAAoVzcHYPsfiSRGJpEBl-1N6zrUTh1&gclid=CjwKCAjw1N7NBhAoEiwAcPchp0NyVcJaJlNGK1w599SAxBZS9kWb2hroimNavrQQRgLOaZ7fxPhENBoCW1EQAvD_BwE

https://www.avma.org/events/avma-convention/what-is-the-cost

Kat is an educator and researcher in the area of veterinary professional-client-patient interactions, and an assistant professor at the Ontario Veterinary College (OVC). Kat's research with the Relationship-Centred Veterinary Medicine at the OVC team explores how communication and relationships in veterinary medicine can be enhanced to improve the lives of animals and the people who care for them. She is passionate about teaching, and enjoys supporting student veterinarians and practicing veterinary professionals in developing their clinical communication and relationship-building skills.

Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame Veterinary podcast.

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I am your host, Dr.

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Andy Rourke.

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Guys.

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Today I'm talking with Dr.

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Kat Sutherland.

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She is an assistant professor at

the Ontario Veterinary College.

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Where she teaches communication to

veterinary students across all four years.

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Her work focuses on clinical

communication, leadership, and helping

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veterinarians navigate difficult

conversations with clients and teams.

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In this episode, we're talking

about change management for

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early career veterinarians.

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What do you do when you're a brand

new grad and you wanna suggest

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improvements in the clinic?

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How do you communicate ideas, build

confidence, and get buy-in from the team

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around you Also, this is a great episode.

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If you are someone who is in responsible

for onboarding new grads, you're like,

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how do I make these people successful?

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How do I help them feel, heard,

and feel like they have a voice?

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Guys, this is fan freaking fantastic.

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This episode is made possible Add

Free by Hills Pet Nutrition Gang.

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Hills is sponsoring a special early

career education series at the A

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VMA convention on July the 10th.

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It's called Communicating with

Confidence, A five Part Masterclass.

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One of the featured speakers is Dr.

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Kat Suland, who you're

gonna hear in this episode.

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She's gonna be leading a session, , on

shared decision making and collaborative

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nutrition conversations with clients.

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The series is designed specifically

for early career veterinarians and

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is included as part of the regular

A VMA convention programming.

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Hills is also sponsoring

the A VMA keynote with Dr.

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Mark Penning, who's the Vice

President of Animal Science and

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Environment at Disney Parks.

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he's gonna be sharing how Disney ensures

animals, the animal kingdom and Epcot

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don't just survive, but they truly thrive.

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It's going to be a fantastic session.

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Will include the a VA convention

link in the show notes, , if

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you'd like to learn more.

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Also, I'm just gonna throw in

real quick, the A VMA actually,

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, gives free registration.

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To new graduates, , for you

get one year in the first five

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years of being an A VMA member.

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So anyway, very cool.

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Exciting stuff going on at a VMA exciting

stuff going on here in the podcast.

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Get ready to meet, , Dr.

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Sutherland.

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Let's get into this episode.

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Kelsey Beth Carpenter: This is your show.

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We're glad you're here.

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We want to help you in

your veterinary career.

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Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr.

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Andy Roark.

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Andy: Welcome to the podcast Dr.

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Kat Sutherland.

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How are you, my friend?

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Kat: I am.

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Well, how are you doing?

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Andy: I am, I'm doing great.

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I am really glad to have you here.

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I've been looking forward to

getting to talk to you for a while.

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This is the first time that we're getting

to meet, you have such a cool resume.

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, you are an assistant, professor at

Ontario's College of Vet Medicine.

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And you.

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Teach clinical communication basically

to all four years of veterinary students.

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Then you also do research in the area,

and I was reading up a little bit about

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you and your PhD focuses on, communication

around talking to pet owners in the exam

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room about obesity and weight control.

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You teach your PhD focusing on

hard communications with people

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whose pets are overweight.

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Tell, just tell me really

quickly, like why did you, why,

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what, grabbed you when like.

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the least favorite conversation

that vet professionals have.

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That's what I want to do.

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Like how did, how did you make,

like, how did you get into that?

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Kat: Yeah, that's fair.

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I don't, I don't really think of

it that way 'cause I, I love those

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conversations and thinking about it

and how we can get people on board

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and do the best for those pets.

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But for me, the interest really

came from having a background in pet

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nutrition and feeling really excited

about that and recognizing the human

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component to obesity and, and managing

a healthy weight for cats and dogs.

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So it sort of snowballed from there

into the communication side of

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things and how we can support people.

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Andy: So I, I think that's fascinating.

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I really love that

you're talking the best.

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I love that you're,

you're doing speaking now.

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You're gonna be a VMA, I think you're

talking about shared decision making

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at the AAV MA conference in 2026.

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you are getting out,

you're doing more things.

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You're speaking, I'm fascinated.

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I, I, I want to make something to

really sort of support, , veteran

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students coming out into the profession.

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I've got this big focus right

now on sort of helping create.

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Effective, confident, comfortable,

, new veterinarians that are

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hitting the ground running.

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And so I, I sort of wanna

talk to you about that.

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And one of the things I wanna talk to you

about today is around change management.

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And, and one of the things that I run

into a lot with veterinary students

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or new veterinarians is they're either

concerned about running into something

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they say, I, I don't like this.

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Or, or there's a, there's a

change that I feel like we really

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need to make in the clinic.

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How do I get heard as

a brand new graduate?

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And so your whole jam is helping

them to be effective communicators.

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And so let me, let me just ask you

before we dive into this, let's,

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let's sort of get some examples.

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Kat, what are the changes that you

perceive as being the most likely to

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be requested by like recent graduates?

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Like when they come out?

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Like what are the obstacles

that new grads are running into?

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Kat: Yeah, I mean, it's a good question.

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Like I think there's a lot of

things, right when those graduates

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are, are coming outta school.

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Like they have all kinds of ideals and

lots of ideas about the profession more

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broadly and the influence they wanna

have on veterinary medicine as a whole.

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And then I think in.

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In terms of when they enter specific

workplaces in their first or first couple

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jobs, a lot of the changes that they talk

to us about are sort of things that they

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struggle with, come down to like cultural

aspects of the team and the workplace.

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So, you know, open and honest,

transparent communication among the

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team and with leadership, how mistakes

are handled and feeling comfortable

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asking for help and saying that

there are things they don't know.

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, the amount and, and the quality of.

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Mentorship that they get and the support

that they have for, you know, new

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opportunities, developing new skills, and

then of course all the wellbeing things.

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So boundaries, healthy work life balance,

that comes up a fair bit as well.

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So professional and personal wellbeing.

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Andy: you mentioned sort of

the, culture of the practice.

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And I, and I think a lot about

this and I think every practice is

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a bit different and the teams are

different and people have different

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communication styles and there are also

really good, just consistently, More

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effective approaches to communication.

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And we look at that and we say generally,

when we approach this conversation in

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this way, we tend to be better off.

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Kat, if, you know, if there was a

pie, a hundred percent pie, what

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percent of communication do you think

is really determined by the culture

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of the practice that you're in?

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And one of it is just basic good

techniques that, that make you a

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consistently solid communicator.

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Does that make sense?

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Kinda what I'm, what I'm asking.

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How much of it varies with your,

Practice versus just, this is the

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best way to approach the conversation.

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Kat: it seems like it's a self-feeding

circle in some ways, right?

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Because culture is based partly on the

relationships that exist, and those

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relationships are based on like the

quality of the communication that exists.

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So yeah, I think it feeds into itself a

little bit, but I think every point that

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you come back to like communication is

really critical and it does influence.

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The culture of a practice and the culture

of the practice, that's the norms and the

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things that you expect within that team.

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And so certainly that is gonna influence

how people feel, you know, comfortable

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communicating and the things that

they have been led to believe are

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effective in their communication,

which may or may not align with what

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the evidence tells us is effective.

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, Andy: what are your perception of the

obstacles in communication for new grads?

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So they're going into the new practice

and they, they have something, they

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say, you know, I, I think that we

should, we should really look at this,

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or, this is the way that we were doing

it in vet school, or, you know, I, I

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really think that we could collaborate

between the doctors and tech technicians

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more effectively if we did this.

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Like what are the pitfalls that you see,

, students sort of make and what are the

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obstacles that are kind of in their way?

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Kat: Yeah, I think there's a couple

sort of internal barriers for sure.

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One of them is confidence.

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Like we know that as students go through

vet school, they start with pretty

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high self-confidence and that kind of

gets eroded and it, continues to take

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a hit in those early years in practice.

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And so there is that.

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Lower sense of confidence and

self-sufficiency and maybe not seeing

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themselves as a leader or somebody who

has the potential to influence their

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workplace and suggest these changes

in a way that's gonna be received,

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, which I think is fair to an extent.

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I mean, imposter phenomenon, you know, we.

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Probably have all experienced that at

various places and our careers and,

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and that makes a lot of sense that

it would influence how comfortable

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they feel approaching this.

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And then I think the other

is sort of a skill barrier.

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So I'm not sure how well we as educators

are doing currently at teaching students.

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How to have feedback, conversations

and leadership skills, and how to

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have conversations around change and

mistakes and be a good mentee and

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offer mentorship in all directions.

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So definitely some opportunity there.

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And all of those things

rely on communication.

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Andy: isn't the breaking

down of confidence isn't that

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the Dunning Kruger effect?

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Right.

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Where like we have huge confidence

at the very beginning of learning.

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You know what I mean?

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Like 20 minutes of internet

research and we're like, I

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know all about Olympic curling.

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And then as you go on you realize more

and more the things you don't know.

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And so there is that kind of

natural breaking down that,

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that runs out , into practice.

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Do you think that that's necessarily bad,

is there benefit to us questioning our

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knowledge and having our confidence shaken

a little bit, especially in the learning

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process so that we're really motivated,

like, oh no, I don't know, everything.

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how do you strike that balance cat in

trying to help, veterinarians, early in

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their career, find confidence and also

sort of keep them motivated with the idea

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that, boy, there's a lot that we don't

know and we have to keep, keep working.

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Like, what, what does that look like

from a personal development standpoint?

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Kat: it's a great point, right?

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Like that sort of productive

challenge is something that helps

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us grow and and recognizing like,

of course you don't know everything.

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you're new and you're never

going to know any everything.

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And that's okay too.

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'cause you're also human in

addition to being a doctor.

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we talk, especially, I work a lot with

the fourth years and we talk a lot about.

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Sort of accepting that and just

trying to build confidence.

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Not necessarily that you're gonna step

out into practice and know how to do

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everything to the level that you hope, but

confidence to communicate what you don't

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know and feel comfortable saying that you

need support with something and advocating

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for yourself in a way that is going to

get you that support, hopefully from

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your leaders and from your team members.

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, so we talk a lot about just how to really.

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Approach the conversations around the

things that you don't have confidence with

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and that you do need to grow in still.

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And, , that seems to, I think,

help students be a little bit more

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prepared when they step out, at

least to say like, I don't know.

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Here's how I'm gonna find out

and here's how I would like

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my team to help me do these.

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Andy: so if you had a young doctor

who said, I'm not sure how to ask,

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how to ask for feedback or, or, yeah.

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I'm a little uncertain, but I'm not sure

how to say to the other doctors or to my

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boss like, Hey, I'm, I'm not comfortable

with this without, you know, I don't want

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them to think that I'm not a good doctor.

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I'm not ready to be here.

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Like, what, what's sort of the piece

of advice that you would give to them?

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Kat: Yeah, I mean, there's

a ton of fear, right?

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Like people don't want to necessarily

admit that they don't know these things.

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Andy: Yeah.

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Oh, when, whenever, whenever you're like,

you're the brand new doctor going in.

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I, I think we make it worse, Kat.

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I, think, and I know why we do it and

I do it, but we call new graduates,

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baby vets, and I think that that's

undermining to their confidence and

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like that, I think everyone smiles

about it and we mean it in a, good way.

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I, I think the people who say it generally

mean, Hey, we've all been, we were all

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new and we are here to support you.

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But I think it can also.

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Really make people feel

a little bit insecure.

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Like, oh, like I, you think that

I'm less than, or, I am actually

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qualified to be here, aren't I?

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And so I, I think that we make it worse.

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Do you agree with that?

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Kat: Yeah, I think that's fair.

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You know, and I hear new graduates, early

career vets call themselves that as well.

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Or people reflect and they use that term.

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And like you said, like

it's kind of a smile.

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We're joking, it's affectionate.

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But you're absolutely right.

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I mean, these are qualified professionals

and if we're not sort of giving

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them that credit and supporting that

confidence, like that's gonna be,

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it's gonna take them a lot longer than

maybe it has to, to kind of get up to.

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That level of confidence where they do

feel self-sufficient and independent.

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Andy: When you think about sort of

the graduates sort of going into these

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practices, I think, I think it's, I think

expectation setting is really important.

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You know, and I don't, I don.

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I think it would be unfair to tell a new

graduate, Hey, you're gonna go into this

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hospital with these other doctors who

have been there and these, and they've got

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systems in place and you should be able to

tell them, I want this change and I wanna

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change that, and I wanna change that.

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And at the same time, you should.

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Be able to sort of advocate for

yourself and, and you should be

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able to request some changes.

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And I really think it's

important to try to emphasize

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to the vet students coming out.

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Like, you're bringing a lot to the table.

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You have, you have the most up-to-date

training of anyone in that building,

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and so you do bring value and you do

have the ability to ask for what you

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want and you can step in immediately

and be a leader Kat, kind of, how

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do you set expectations around like.

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Wh what is, how do you

pick your battles, right?

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How do you set your objectives

that you want to make changes with?

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how do you get your head around

being engaged but not being overly

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engaged and being frustrated?

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Like, do you, how do you level set.

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Kat: don't think that, you know, you

have to be pessimistic , and think

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that, oh, I'm, I'm new and all these

people are, are more experienced,

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therefore I can't suggest anything

or I can't spark any change.

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You know, Be optimistic,

but also be reasonable.

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Certainly I think that, There's some

self-reflection and some self-coaching

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that can happen around this.

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Like really sit down and reflect

and dig into the specific outcomes

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that you would like to see.

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Be different, track or think about

how you would track specifically

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what success would look like

for you if that change was made.

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And so here we're talking about the things

that you can observe and see and hear

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that tell you that the change has been

effective, so that concrete evidence.

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Your feelings and the way that

you experience it are, are also

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of course, really important.

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But when we're talking about getting ready

to communicate these things to people,

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that concrete evidence is really important

to support buy-in and, and understanding.

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So, I would say that that's important,

like learning those skills and being

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able to communicate that value.

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And then also.

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Having some acceptance that, yeah, baby

steps are still steps, like small changes

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can still be impactful and it's not always

gonna go the way that you're hoping.

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The first time you try to change

something or implement something new,

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like there's gonna be setbacks, there's

gonna be, you know, sliding back to the

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old way, there's gonna be resistance.

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Not everyone is happy about change

all the time or embraces it.

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So I think about this.

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You know, the way that I talk to

students when they're bringing up an

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interaction with a client they had,

and they're listing, you know, the 84

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skills that they used really well, and

all the things they tried, and they did

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everything, And it still just did not go.

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The way that they wanted.

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They didn't get as much

information as they hoped.

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The client just was kind of

not, not giving it back to them.

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And they're so frustrated and they're

like, what could I have done differently?

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And sometimes you couldn't

necessarily have done a lot

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differently, and it's just about.

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Recognizing and accepting success in

the form of knowing that you did the

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absolute best you could within your sphere

of control, and being okay with that

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and recognizing that that experience,

even if it isn't getting you the exact

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outcome you want, is gonna help you

be more successful the next time.

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Andy: Yeah, that's so hard, isn't it?

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It's so hard to push and to really

want to do a great job and to really

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try hard, and then also just to

know, and I think you're spot on.

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I think that's really important.

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You can't make people.

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Do anything.

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You can't make them tell you anything.

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, I had a case yesterday that, , the

pet owner, wrote like a little

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internal negative review.

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Like, so we, we reached out afterwards and

were like, Hey, how was your experience?

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And she did not, she did not care for me.

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And, the management asked me about it.

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They were like, you know

what, what, what happened?

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You know?

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And, she had written this note and

her perception was, The doctor I saw

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really put on the hard cell to get me

to do an, an echocardiogram, you know?

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And, and only after I really pushed back

that he agreed that it was okay to wait.

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and she, did not like that,

and she felt his hard cell.

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And I tell you, Kat.

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I really think that dog

needs an echocardiogram.

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Like I, you know, I really, based on

the history and what I'm hearing, I

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was like, I, you know, I, my, in my

medical judgment, I don't, I really

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wasn't trying to sell her anything.

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I don't, from a financial standpoint,

I don't care if she does it or not.

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You know, I go to the

specialist or, or don't.

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But I, like, I really, I was really

trying to help her and then to have,

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have her feel like, oh, you did this.

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And the truth is I've

thought a lot about it.

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Obviously since then, I don't

think that was about me.

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I think that was about her, you know?

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And, and I don't, I don't know

what I would've done differently

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and then still felt good that I'd

advocated for the pet at the end.

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And so, anyway, I don't know, I don't mean

to sidetrack this too much, but like, I

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think that that's just part of practice.

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And, and, and you always

kinda have that battle of she

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felt like it was a hard sell.

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Because I felt like this was really

important for her pet, and I don't

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feel bad that I felt that way

because I, I really that, so anyway,

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it's, it's sort of that juggling.

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But God, I've been doing this almost

20 years and I still, you know, sit

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and I think like, did I do that right?

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Could I have said that differently?

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You know, things like that.

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I don't, I don't know

that it ever goes away.

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Kat: Yeah, I mean, I think there's

a lot of value in that constant

361

self-reflection and really, considering

and assessing your own skills and how

362

you could have done things differently.

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But I also think that, you know, with

the new grads, like they take that.

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What they perceive as rejection,

really personally, sometimes, and

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to your point, like it maybe had

absolutely nothing to do with you.

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And it's the same thing if

you're suggesting change to

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a leader or to your team.

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Like it might get shot down and maybe it

has absolutely nothing to do with your

369

idea or the way that you presented it.

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Andy: Do you buy into the idea that it's

valuable for a new vet to first request

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small changes as opposed to coming in and,

and, and, and try to make larger changes?

372

Do you think that, that it increases your

chance of success if you ask the practice

373

just to, to do little things first and

you kind of build up to a bigger thing?

374

Or do you think that that's fantasy?

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Kat: I think maybe, right?

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Like if you're coming into a workplace

culture where change is not maybe welcomed

377

or readily embraced, and so you're

suggesting little things and seeing

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success with little things so that people

are feeling supported in their ability

379

and their confidence to make changes.

380

I think that that can be really

effective, sort of that gentle

381

scaffolding to bigger things.

382

, but if you're in a, a place where

they are really open to big ideas and

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changes, then maybe you can start kind

of big and, and see how that goes.

384

Like, , why not?

385

Andy: I think one of the biggest

frustrations that I had early in my career

386

was how long everything seemed to take.

387

, I am an enthusiastic guy and I

was especially, I was, you know,

388

I was a fairly naive how much time

it takes to just to turn a ship

389

with, you know, 40 sailors on it.

390

It doesn't happen overnight.

391

But I don't think I really knew that.

392

, do you perceive vet students having

a, an, an idea that these changes sort

393

of take time or is that something you

think a lot of people struggle with?

394

Kat: yeah, I think sometimes

there's a, there's a little bit

395

of optimism in terms of speed.

396

Like I, you know, a, a recent early

career, , vet I was talking to, she

397

came to some CE training and got super

excited about revamping her clinics

398

history checklist, for example.

399

And she was like, well,

that's an easy thing.

400

Like I can just rewrite

it, I can show it to them.

401

Everyone's gonna be on board.

402

Like super easy change.

403

And it was like, okay, hold

on, let's peel this back.

404

Like you're asking people to now

do their job totally differently.

405

Use skills they might

not have been trained on.

406

They've been doing it this

other way for a super long time.

407

Like it's not just gonna be snap

your fingers, everyone's on board.

408

Change happens and it, that's

a relatively little thing.

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So yeah, definitely expect

things to take time.

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Andy: H how do you

communicate through that cat?

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, say that you're, you know, say that

you're the vet and you've, you've got

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this idea and you've sort of talked

to, to the management about it, and

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you're, getting some, he, you're

getting head nods and they're like, you

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know, yeah, I think we, I think this

could be something that we would do.

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And then they're, busy and

you're seeing appointments.

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But you know, I always say, I

always think to myself, are they

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hoping that I'll forget this?

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Or is it moving forward?

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And I, I don't want it to, I don't

want it to fall off the radar, but

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also, I don't want to be the person

who's nagging or poking too much.

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Talk to me sort of about communication

strategies to kind of help the

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follow through as opposed to

the presentation of the idea.

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I'd like, I think we, we all like to

believe that we can make a presentation

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of an idea and management will become.

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Thrilled with it, and they will

grab it and rush to implement

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it and we'll just ride the wave.

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, but that, follow through of, of

sort of holding accountable when you

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don't have any organizational power.

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I think that that's a real skill.

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, how do you teach that?

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How do you try to do that when you're,

when you're the brand new graduate?

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Kat: Yeah, no, it's a great point.

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And like you were saying, like

recognizing that agreement is not the

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same as commitment because people, yeah.

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Like people will not be like, great idea

and then like there's no implementation.

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, so I think that one of the things

that people often skip over, and

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I think it's really important to

make time for this, is explicitly.

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Eliciting and exploring

people's resistance or their

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objections to a proposed change.

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So.

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Like we said, it's easy to, you

know, hear something and not along.

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Okay, that sounds great.

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And then things get busy

and it falls by the wayside.

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But if you really take the time early

to explore what their feelings are, what

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they're thinking the barriers might be

to actually implementing and following

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through with that, then you can kind of

plan ahead as a group or as a team, and.

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Make sure that everyone feels supported

in what they would need to do and what

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they're being asked to do to actually

implement and make this change.

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And that's not just one time.

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That's checking in throughout as

well to see how things are going.

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Andy: I think if I was having this

conversation, and I know we're just

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deep in sort of the theoretical

conversation, but, , let's say that,

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that I, I saw opportunity to, to

leverage my technicians more than

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they're being used at the practice.

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I think probably what I would try

to do at some point is to say.

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, what do you like about this idea?

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Are there parts of this that,

that you would be on board with

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or that you see potential in?

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And I think I would ask that so

that I could then ask, do you

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have concerns about this plan?

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, are there things you don't like about it

that, that I should know, or that, that

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would be helpful for me to understand?

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I think that's kind of how

I would try to explore that.

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Is that kind of what you have in mind?

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Kat: Yeah, exactly.

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Like if you're getting the

sense that people are on board

467

and, and they're telling you

that , they like certain things.

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Then the flip side is, okay,

what do you see not working?

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What do you see being

really hard for us to do?

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So let's take the time to really

explore that, talk about it, and then.

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As a team, we, we know that if there's

higher self-efficacy, so higher

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self-confidence that that can be a

predictor of successful change if there's

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other support and skills in place.

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So trying to find a way to build

some of that confidence as a team,

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I think can be effective and getting

that commitment and consistency

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as you're trying to make a change.

477

Andy: So.

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Magic wand, you have a

vet practice, you are Dr.

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Kat, veterinary clinic owner, and you

have got a new graduate coming in.

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What is one thing that you would wanna

make sure that you did in your practice?

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Like one policy, one approach?

482

What is one thing that you would try to

set up to help build that confidence in

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this new graduate, to help create that,

that culture that you would want to have?

484

Kat: it would be similar to what

I do with my students, , my summer

485

students, my graduate students.

486

You know, one of the first

conversations I have with them is

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about, you know, what are your goals?

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What do you wanna get out of this?

489

What skills are you looking to develop?

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How can I help you achieve that?

491

And then along with that,

really importantly, how do you

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prefer to receive feedback?

493

How comfortable are

you giving me feedback?

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Here's how I would like to receive

feedback from you so that I know

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how good of a job I'm doing in

supporting you towards your goals.

496

So a little bit of that mentorship

and coaching, but just really trying

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to make sure that people recognize

that this is a safe environment.

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You know, we are here , to

support them and see them grow.

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And build that culture kind

of one person at a time.

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And we all have the opportunity

to influence the culture of

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our workplace, even if we're

not the manager or the leader

502

, Andy: Dr.

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Kats, you are fantastic.

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If people are just loving this.

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Do you have resources that you

would point 'em to around effective

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communication and, and vet teams?

507

Things that you really like?

508

Kat: for sure.

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So I will plug our team.

510

So relationship centered

veterinary medicine at the

511

Ontario Veterinary College.

512

. That would be a great place for a lot of

sort of the research around communication

513

and then a resource I really appreciate

for sort of leadership and change.

514

Communication is the center

for creative Leadership.

515

They have a lot of great stuff online.

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Super easy to find and explore.

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Andy: Where can people find you

online if they wanna keep up with

518

you, the research you're doing, your

speaking, coming up, things like that.

519

Tell me, tell me a little bit about

what you're talking about at the A VMA.

520

Kat: Yeah, so we're gonna talk

about shared decision making in

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relation to nutrition conversations.

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'cause that's a great opportunity for

collaboration with clients and vet teams.

523

, and if you do wanna see more

about me, I would say our.

524

Website, the RCVM, LinkedIn.

525

, I do have a personal LinkedIn.

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Probably not as active as I could

be, but on our team one you can see

527

everything that all of us are up to

and everyone's doing great stuff.

528

Andy: That sounds great.

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Well, I'll link that stuff up in the

show notes so people can find it easily.

530

Kat, thank you for being here, gang.

531

Thanks for tuning in and

listening to everybody.

532

Take care of Yourselves, gang.

533

Kat: Thanks for having me.

534

Speaker 2: And that's it guys.

535

Thanks for being here.

536

Thanks to Kat for, , hanging

out with me guys.

537

Thanks to Hill's Pet Nutrition for making

this episode possible, and also thanks

538

to them for sponsoring the Communicating

with Confidence Masterclasses at the

539

A VMA convention on July the 10th.

540

I hope that you can get there,

the series is part of the regular

541

A VMA convention programming.

542

It's going to be fantastic.

543

Go check out, , Kat there.

544

, she's so wonderful to meet

and she's a great lecturer.

545

You're gonna have a great time.

546

Thanks again to Hills for supporting gang.

547

Take care of yourselves.

548

I'll talk to you later on.