📺 Watch & Subscribe on YouTube

In this episode, I speak with Mike Robbins, a Professional Speaker, Author, and Coach with a fascinating journey from Professional Baseball to the world of personal development. Mike shares his unique path, starting with his early days in baseball, being drafted by the Kansas City Royals, and the life-altering injury that ended his sports career. We dive into how he transitioned from the baseball field to becoming a sought-after speaker and author, and the lessons he learned about resilience, mental health, and finding new passions.

Mike's story is not just about overcoming adversity but also about the importance of authenticity and appreciation in both personal and professional life. We discuss his experiences in the podcasting world, the evolution of his show, and the wisdom he's gained from his guests. Whether you're a seasoned podcaster, someone curious about starting a podcast, or just looking for inspiration to navigate life's challenges, this episode is packed with insights and heartfelt moments.

Join us for a conversation that promises to leave you motivated and ready to embrace your own journey.

Episode Sponsor

FullCast – https://fullcast.co/

Key Takeaways

00:00:00: Introduction and Audience Context

00:01:03: Mike's Journey to Podcasting

00:05:04: Harry's Podcasting Beginnings

00:05:57: Mike's Baseball Background

00:09:02: Transition from Baseball to Business

00:12:22: Learning from Different Levels of Talent

00:15:06: Dealing with Career-Ending Injury

00:19:19: Transition to Speaking and Coaching

00:22:11: Starting a Business in the Early 2000s

00:25:43: The Role of Podcasting in Mike's Career

00:27:36: Growth as a Podcast Host

00:31:34: Challenges of Breaking into Podcast Rotation

00:34:09: Writing the First Book

00:38:31: Deciding on Book Topics

00:41:52: Phases of Writing and Promoting a Book

00:42:02: Misunderstandings and Personal Insights

00:42:35: Changing Views on Higher Education

00:44:02: Future of Traditional Institutions

00:44:31: Ideal Clients and Business Focus

00:45:18: Closing Remarks and Contact Information

Tweetable Quotes

"I started my podcast, the one that I currently have that's now called 'We're All in This Together,' back in 2016. The plan was just to do some interviews for my book. Once I was done researching for the book, I was going to be done with the podcast. But I got done writing the book, and I was still liking the podcast and enjoying the conversations, so I just kept going with it."

"I ended up choosing to go to Stanford even though I was scared. It was such a good decision for me because what I learned when I got there was that it was better to be in an environment where I was a bit intimidated and felt like the players were even better around me because it forced me to step up."

"For me, it's not a huge money maker or a big marketing funnel. It's just something that I like doing, I feel like I'm good at, and I think it reaches some people. It gives me a platform to share ideas, interview interesting people, and talk about topics that matter to me. It's an extension of my larger brand and a way to connect with my audience."

Resources Mentioned

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrobbins/

Twitter - https://twitter.com/mikedrobbins

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/mikedrobbins/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/mikerobbinspage/

Podcast Junkies Website: podcastjunkies.com

Podcast Junkies YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Podcastjunkies/

Podcast Junkies Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/podcastjunkiesjunkies/

Podcast Junkies Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/podcastjunkies

Podcast Junkies Twitter: https://twitter.com/podcast_junkies

Podcast Junkies LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/podcastjunkies

The Podosphere: https://www.thepodosphere.com/

Podcast Index, Value4Value & NewPodcastApps: https://podcastindex.org/

🎙️🎙️🎙️

Podcast Production & Marketing by FullCast

Mentioned in this episode:

Podcast Blueprint 101

Mike Robbins 0:00 - 0:03

Anything I should know about the audience and who this is for and when this will post?

Harry Duran 0:03 - 0:17

It should be out in a couple of weeks, and it's for folks who are in the podcasting space. Podcast curious. Just kind of getting want to get inspired about. People have been starting podcasts and have had them running for a while and all the different ways people get into podcasting.

Mike Robbins 0:18 - 0:20

Okay. We didn't talk about any of that.

Harry Duran 0:20 - 0:30

I see that you got an interesting path as well. We'll get started if you feel the need to do a second take on anything. We fix everything up in post production. If you need a break for water or anything like that as well, so.

Mike Robbins 0:30 - 0:31

Sounds good.

Harry Duran 0:31 - 0:37

Okay, so Mike Robbins, host of we're all in this together. Thank you so much for joining me on podcast junkies.

Mike Robbins 0:38 - 0:47

Harry, glad to be here. Always fun to talk on a podcast about podcasting. So it's sort of like, you know, it's like tweeting when I'm at the Twitter office or something. It's kind of cool.

Harry Duran 0:47 - 1:03

So, given this is a show where we get folks inspired to either start a podcast or continue with theirs, or maybe reinvent and rebrand theirs, what would you say has been the biggest impact for you as a result of starting your podcast?

Mike Robbins 1:04 - 3:06

Harry Duran 3:06 - 3:06

Smart.

Mike Robbins 3:07 - 5:04

Harry Duran 5:04 - 5:21

Mike Robbins 5:21 - 5:22

Oh, interesting.

Harry Duran 5:22 - 5:57

But I pivoted and I figured it was easier to get in contact with podcasters who already have good equipment. So you're already halfway there. So I want to rewind the clock back because I love just showing listeners and viewers all the different ways people can get to podcasting. And you actually started out in baseball. You were drafted by Kansas City Royals. So talk a little bit about that, I imagine. I'm curious to hear a lot about how that panned out. But also, when you're in, this must be something that had to have been a passion for you when you were younger, you know, how far back does your passion for baseball go?

Mike Robbins 5:57 - 7:40

Harry Duran 7:40 - 7:41

Yeah.

Mike Robbins 7:41 - 9:02

But I was fascinated, Harry, by this couple things I had noticed as an athlete, especially by the time I got to college and was playing professionally, I noticed it wasn't always the most talented people that were the most successful, and it wasn't always, I mean, you needed some talent, obviously, but there were guys with a lot of talent who couldn't figure it out mentally, emotionally, to really turn it into success. And there were other guys, and I was one of these. Like, I wasn't the biggest and the strongest and the most physically talented, but I seem to have some things figured out mentally, emotionally about the game that helped me when, you know, it'd be nice if I was six foot five and I threw 95 miles an hour, but I didn't so I had to kind of learn some things. And then it wasn't always the most successful people that seemed the happiest and the most fulfilled. Like, I played with some guys that were, like, super talented, super successful, and they were, like, miserable. And I was like, what the hell is that? Right? We live in this society that's so obsessed with, like, success. And then on a team level, I noticed it wasn't always the best players made the best team. I mean, again, you needed to have talent. But sometimes if there were too many good players, like, the egos would get all screwed up, and then who was in charge and who was the leader and who was the alpha, it would kind of screw the whole thing up. And so there was this thing that we called chemistry. There was something about the coach and the players and, like, guys really caring about each other and rooting for each other. I thought that was a sports thing. Then I got my first job, and I looked around, I went, oh, it's not the most talented people, the most successful. It's not the most successful. Who are the happiest?

Harry Duran 9:03 - 9:03

I've seen this before.

Mike Robbins 9:03 - 9:47

Right? It's like, oh, this team chemistry thing. In business, they just call it culture. It's the same thing. And so I got really curious about those things, both for myself personally, but that's what my business and my work is all about now. And so the years I spent playing baseball did really inform me in a lot of ways. They still kind of live in my life now, even though I'm 50 years old now and I stopped playing baseball 25, half my lifetime ago. But it's, you know, and I still love baseball. I still love sports. But I watch sports now as a fan, of course, of my local teams, but also just for the human element of it. And some of the things that, you know, I feel like sports can teach us about life and about success and failure and performance and all kinds of things.

It's interesting when you're in that environment and you think you're in there for the sport, and obviously there's people and your teammates were in there who excelled athletically. And to your point, what's fascinating about you could probably speak to this a little bit is, like, as you progress in the different levels of a sport, you know, you think you're the best. You're the best in your town, right? You're the best in your city. And then you go to the high school and you're like, maybe you're the best in that high school. And then you get to college. And you're like, wait, there's people that are better than me? I had that experience because I ran track a little bit. And I got to high school, I was like the fastest kid in the local league. And I get to high school and I remember we're running a 400 yard dash and this kid is just blowing by. I mean, I can't run any faster and this kid is running faster. And I was like, whoa. And imagine like getting a aaa, you know, the minors, the majors, the all stars, the Michael Jordans, you know, whatever you call, like, just to think how people, how you see the different levels of how people excel at those levels, it's a trip.

I mean, look, in things like track and swimming, where it's time based, that's its own thing. I mean, you can only run so fast or swim so fast. It doesn't matter where you are in sports like baseball and basketball and others, look, there's talent involved, you know, and you're a certain size and you can do certain things. But I did find about that. I mean, every level I went up all the way starting back. I grew up where I grew up in oakland. Ton of talent in baseball and other sports, just a lot of kids who were more talented than me that I dealt with a lot of life circumstances and other things that made it challenging for them to continue on. But I would find that even in baseball, when you go from Little League, that ends when you're twelve to back when I was playing, you would then immediately move right up to basically a big league field. So pitching little league, you pitch the mound is 45ft away from home plate. Then you go up to that bigger field when you turn 13 and it's now 60ft away. So, I mean, it's like, what the hell is happening? Like, the bases are 60ft when you're in little league, then they're 90ft. It literally feels like you move from living in your car to living in a house, right? So, but every level, even going from then that sort of youth league to the bigger field, then to high school, oh, gosh, now I'm playing against guys who are 18 years old and I'm 15. But then college was another jump. It's like, oh, my goodness, these are men. And I feel like a boy. And then professional baseball. So, yeah, that phenomenon of feeling like I'm a big fish in a small pond, then all of a sudden I'm a small fish in a big pond. But in baseball, one of the things that can happen, and I learned this was a really important life lesson that I learned is like, yes, there were times, and I see this in my life, in my business, being around people who are better than me, who are more talented than I am or more successful is both intimidating but also, I think, motivating.

Yeah, for sure.

Like, when I was getting recruited in college, the two schools I was looking at were Stanford and UC Berkeley, both incredible schools, both really good baseball programs. But at that time, and even probably still now, Stanford at a different level than UC Berkeley, both academically and the baseball team, like the Stanford baseball team and won the national championship in 1987 and 1988. I'm getting recruited in the fall of 91. So just a few years after that and it's like, oh, my gosh, here's this incredible university and this incredible baseball program. Like, there's no other place on the planet I want to be. And I was scared because I thought if I go to Stanford, they recruit all over the country, they get the very best. I don't know if I'm going to get to play.

Oh, yeah, right.

If I go to Cal, they're really good there, but they recruit primarily in the Bay area and LA and other places a little bit smaller and they really wanted me. So I was higher on the list of recruits at Cal than I was at Stanford. Right. I ended up choosing to go to Stanford even though I was scared. It was such a good decision for me because what I learned when I got there was like, it was better to be in an environment where I was a bit intimidated and I felt like the players were even better around me because it forced me to step up. If I'd gone to Cal, I think I would have done fine, but I don't think it would have challenged me in the same way. And the life lesson for me and that now when I find myself in those situations when I'm like, oh, shit, can I do this thing, whatever it is, or I'm scared, that seems a little bit bigger than I'd rather be in that arena. Even if I fail and I feel overwhelmed or overmatched than in the one that I feel like I think I can do well here and I think we want to set ourselves up for success. Right? So you don't want to all of a sudden again, you're going to run a race? Like, hey, I think I'm going to start running. Let me go run with these people that are professional marathoners. Like, that's not good, right? Because I'm going to. I can't even really run with them, but I think if we can put ourselves in environments where, you know, everyone listening and watching this, if you want to get into podcasting, it's like, be around people who are already doing it successfully, who know what they're doing, not so you feel inferior, but so you have something to look for and strive to and go, oh, I know Harry, or I know this person. They actually have a successful podcast. I can then talk to them and learn from them about what they're doing as opposed to, like, I need to be the best podcaster I know.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? It's that whole saying, like, if I'm the smartest person in the room, I'm probably in the wrong room.

Yeah, or the Jim Rohn coat. You're the average of the five people you spend the most time with.

Right. And again, like, I'm someone who's incredibly loyal to, like, friends and people I've known over the years, and I'm also open all the time to, like, how can I put myself in different situations where, you know, being the average of those five people can actually raise the bar for me as opposed to lower it?

So, Mike, when you had that injury and it obviously changed the trajectory of your life, this was everything you were putting your energy and emotion towards. You know, this is what your goal was to be a major league baseball player. How do you deal with that? This happens to athletes, I'm sure, all the time. Like, there's probably more athletes that don't make it into, you know, into the majors than do. And so there's some sort of grit or resilience or, you know, I'm curious where, if you had to learn that in the moment that it happened or that you pulled maybe from an upbringing or something like that to be prepared for, like, you know, the pivot that you had to make at that point.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know that I was prepared for it, necessarily. I do think what helped me, I did get some help pretty early on. Like, I got into therapy. I got into therapy even before baseball ended. I struggled with some mental health stuff when I was in college, and this is back in the mid nineties where, like, not only were athletes not talking about mental health, like, nobody was talking about mental health, especially if you're, you know, I'm a 21 year old guy. Like, that wasn't a conversation. I come from a family where my dad suffered from bipolar disorder, a lot of mental health issues. So I knew about it and was kind of scared of it. And then when I struggled with it, I was like, oh, no, this is going to be a challenge. Anybody who's ever struggled with depression or anxiety or any mental health challenge knows how hard it is. But then again, that the stigma on top of it and especially 30 years ago. So I say all of that because I was pretty open when coming out of baseball that I was like, okay, I don't know who I am or what the hell I'm gonna do. Scared of figuring out what comes next for me. I'm also scared I'm gonna get stuck in a deep, dark depression that I don't want to get stuck in. So I need to get some help. And so I reached out to some people who'd gone through the experience to talk to me about how they navigated it, and I also reached out for some professional help. And one of the things I remember very distinctly as I was really in that who am I if I'm not a baseball player and what comes next for me, I had this vision of myself. Ironically, I'm 50 now. I thought of myself, okay, I don't want to be the guy at 50 years old sitting at the end of the bar going, I used to be someone or telling old stories from back in my baseball playing days, like my best days were behind me kind of thing. But I was really honest with myself and the people around me. That that's what's going on in my head. That's what I'm worried about. And whats interesting is that, again, I spent a couple of years working for these tech companies, and it was an interesting time in the.com boom. But I really didnt care about what I was doing. It was boring to me. I wasnt that into it. It was really when I started speaking and coaching, then I was like, oh, this gives me that same level of nervous energy that I used to have when I was playing that I missed. Yeah, it's like I need to be doing. I would say to people when I was selling Internet advertising, I was like, I'm not. I'm like, yeah, I mean, I have a sales call or I'm trying to close a deal. It's. But I don't really care that much. Yeah, I was like, I want to do something that I care enough about that I get nervous before I go do it because that's how baseball was. That, like, every time before a game, I was like excited but nervous. Like, boom. And this could go bad and I really want it to go well. So all these years later, like, before I get up on stage to go speak I feel that nervous energy that makes me excited. I'm like, cool. I'm doing something that matters because I'm going to go out on that stage and I'm pretty sure it's going to go well, but you never know. And it's like, it makes it exciting. But until I found that for myself, I was a bit lost. But again, I got some help, I got some support. And then looking back on it now, I'm grateful for the experience, even though it was painful. I think a lot of us when we have a hard experience, if we have enough time and enough perspective, we can look back and go. I learned a lot from that, you know.

So how did you decide or, you know, what were the other options for you as you're trying to figure out your next move? You tried a couple of other.com jobs, figuring out, you know, where your future lay, if you will, and naturally gravitated towards something that gets you in front of a different stage. And that's speaking. But how did that transition happen? Did you have to find a coach or were other people that, you know, you had seen doing something similar?

Well, I mean, I was doing a lot of therapy. I was reading a lot of books. I was going to a lot of workshops, trying to like sort myself out in the transition process. I was working again for, I worked for two different Internet companies in San Francisco at that time. One and then another. And the second one, it was like we were supposed to go public and everybody was going to get rich. And it was like, and I was like, look, I don't know what I want to do when I grow up, but it'd be nice to get rich in the process while I'm young. That sounds fun. And then the.com bubble burst in the spring of 2000. And that summer I lost my job. And at the time I used to joke because I got laid off a couple months before. It was cool to get laid off in those days because within the next few months, like that fall and into the early part of 2001, everybody here in the Bay Area and in the sort of Silicon Valley tech world, everyone who was working for Internet companies got laid off because the whole thing kind of imploded. Now, ironically, the Internet didn't go anywhere and it's bigger than ever. I mean, you and I talking on this podcast is an example of like, the Internet is ginormous relative to what it was back in the late nineties. But all of these companies that popped up kind of went away. A lot of them. I mean, the yahoos and the Aols of the world stuck around. And then Google got big and all this other stuff, eBay, whatever. But for the most part, there was like, everything.com kind of went away for a short time, and that was sort of the universe intervening because I was out of work. They gave me a little severance package so that I didn't, like, I could pay the rent for a couple months to figure out what am I going to do? And the truth was, like, a mentor of mine asked me this question, Harry, he was like, if you didn't have to worry about paying the bills and you could do anything, right, what would you do? And I was like, well, I would write and I would speak, and I would try to inspire people. Like, that's, you know, okay, great. You should do that now. And I'm like, now? And he's like, yeah. I'm like, I'm 26 years old. I don't know what the hell. I mean, how do you even make money doing that? I mean, again, this was. Think of the time. It was like the summer of 2000, and there was no. I mean, the Internet was around, right? But, like, blogs were only for, like, super dorky, techy people at that time. There was no social media. There were no podcasts. There were no. The only way you had, like, write an article, write a book, give a speech, lead a workshop. Like, that was kind of it. Yeah, if you want to, you know, go on the radio or go on television, but who's going to give you a radio show or an interview on tv?

It was a big deal back then.

Publish a book for you. Where are you going to write an article here? I'm going to send my article to the New York Times, put it in there. Why? Because I'm an interesting guy. You know? There was just like, it's hard for people in today's world to. I mean, again, if you're 45 or 50 or older, you remember those days. But even those of us that remember those days, it's like now everybody can produce content. Everybody's a publisher. Everybody can create a podcast or write a blog. And, I mean, you don't have to do. It's so easy, which is great, but it wasn't that way back then.

Yeah.

So I had no idea what I was going to do, but I knew that I wanted to do that. I would wander into bookstores and look at the books for my own because I wanted to buy them. But I'm like, how do you. Who writes these books? Like, how do you, you know? And so what happened was someone said, well, go back to school, get a degree in psychology or get a degree in organizational development or a master's or a PhD. And I was like, all right, look, I like to learn. I know I like to learn, but, like, I don't really, like, I never really liked school, and that seems like a long time. And if I did that, it was going to take a long time. It would be hard. I'd be broke, in debt. So I decided at the beginning of 2001, when I started my business, I was like, I'm going to design my own curriculum, is what I called it. I'm going to spend this next year reading books, taking workshops, and meeting as many people as I possibly can meet who are doing any kind of helping. It could be from someone who's speaking, someone who's coaching, someone who's writing, someone who has a radio show, someone who's a chiropractor. I mean, I literally didn't care if they were helping humans in some way, shape, or form. I wanted to talk to them about, how did you start doing this, and how did you figure out how to make money doing this in a way that's not cheesy and weird? You know what I mean? I mean. And again, if it were today, I would be talking to a lot of podcasters and other people, but this was.

Back then, subscribing to podcasts and watching YouTube.

Totally. That YouTube didn't exist. Podcast didn't exist, but I was doing my version of that then. I was listening to a lot of cassette tapes. People like Jim Rohn and Wayne Dyer and whoever, right? And I figured at the end of that year, I'd probably be broke. I might be in debt, but I'd be broken in debt if I went to school. I just wouldn't have a degree at the end of it. And if I couldn't get anything off the ground that was actually paying me money, then I would go find a job. Even though the economy was rough at the time and the job market was hard, I had enough skills, enough context. I could get a job somewhere doing something. If I had to wait tables, I could. And that was literally how I started my business. And all these years later, five books and three TEd talks and my podcast and all the speaking and all the things, it literally just came from this. I want to help people. I want to try to figure out the best way to do that, given my skillset and my mindset and what I think I have to offer. And then I want to try to find a business model that works. And that's one thing I would say, for what it's worth. I mean, look, you know a lot more about podcasting than I do, even though I've been podcasting for a while. But, like, I feel like when people start their shows, there are some people that do it and it just blows up and it's this huge thing, and that's what they do. And they can monetize it and they can sell ads and they can do all the things. More power to you. The vast majority of people start podcasts. That's not the case. Right. And it's like figuring out what is your show for and why do you have it? Like, for me, it's not a huge money maker for us. It's not a big marketing funnel. It's just something that, like, I like doing it. I feel like I'm good at doing it. I think it reaches some people, and it gives me a platform to be able to say things and do things and interview people and talk to people, and it fits in with the larger brand of what I'm doing. I mean, if I probably invested more time and more money, more energy into it, it could probably generate more. But, like, I don't want to be a full time podcaster and have that be like, I'm a speaker and an author. That's my work. And then the podcasting is just part of it. I kind of look at it as, like a little more involved than social media, right? Like, I post things on LinkedIn and, you know, Instagram and Facebook and X, but that's not my job. That's just part of what I do to both reach people and share content and also market and promote what I do. I look at the podcast as an extension of that, for sure. And it's fun to me, and it's easy. So I like it.

Yeah, I love it because I call it my virtual stage. And you all know, and we actually connected through LinkedIn. Like, if you reach out to people and say, hey, can I pick your brain or can I get some free, you know, you want to grab a coffee, that's code for can I get some free consulting, right? Everybody knows that. But if you say, hey, Mike, I've got this amazing podcast, and I interview some of the most fascinating folks in the world on it, you know, people's calendar suddenly opens up, and it's amazing. And I'm sure that you've had this experience. I started a second show in vertical farming, of all things, and I interviewed specifically CEO's and founders, because that was a choice I made because I was starting from zero. No one knew me in this space, and I own podcast agencies, so I put those two together. I know how to do long form interviews now. It's the number one show in vertical farming, whereas three years ago, I had zero visibility. So just to kind of circle back to your point about just having this platform, because now, I mean, think about the wealth of information you've received from the guests that you've had on your show. So you may not have had the opportunity to speak to otherwise. And now I'm curious. When you first got started, you mentioned, you said 2007, and I've talked to some of the ogs in podcasting, folks like Dave Jackson, who runs school of podcasting. I got to meet Adam Curry, who's known as the Pod father. So people were connecting USB cables to ipods to sync up mp3 s back then. So when you first got started, and maybe when you think about the reboot as you were starting the book, how have you grown as a host in terms of creating content? Because almost every single podcast I've spoken to, no one likes the sound of their voice. When they first hear, recorded and play, they're like, whoa, that's what I sound like. And it sounds super awkward. I know Pat, I interviewed Pat Flynn one time, and he said he held on to his audio for like a year, and it had some, like, heavy metal music. In the beginning, it was super awkward. He played at a conference one time. So I'm curious what that journey. And it's easier sometimes to look back, you know, to see how you've grown and as a host. And if you think about that over the years, you know, how has that journey been like for you?

I mean, I'd say a couple things. It's funny, I actually am someone. The sound of my voice doesn't bother me as much as I don't love seeing myself on video. That's the one where I'm like, oh, gosh, I've been bad and negligent. Mostly we, almost every episode we do is just audio. Some of it's because I travel and I'm on the road, and I just want to be able to, like, look, Covid changed a lot for a lot of us in the sense of now, we all had to upgrade at least a little bit of our home studio because everything I'm doing, speaking engagements from my home office, so I say all of that. But when I listen back to old episodes from when I first started, say, in 2016 or way back to those early ones back in zero seven or some of the Internet radio. I mean, I think I've figured out a few things about some of the technology and making it sound a little bit better and being more mindful. So I would say that ultimately, what I always loved about podcasting then, and I still love now, is its conversations. Like the one you and I are having right now. It's like, I feel like this is you and I, even though we don't know each other and we're just meeting in this context. It's like talking on the phone.

Sure.

And it's like I'm trying to be mindful of there are people listening, so I don't want to just be random stuff that doesn't relate to anybody. But I think the more personal, the more universal, and the more like realizing. Ironically, I think when I first started my show, I would mostly do interviews, and then I was a little nervous to do what I called in those days, solo episodes. Like just me. Like, who the hell's going to just listen to me? And now, again, I do like having interviews sometimes, but my show is more my take on different aspects of life and leadership in the world and work and what's happening. And I feel like if people are listening, like that's what they're tuning in for. And every now and again I might have someone like Harry on the show, and we can talk about whatever the topic is, but it's evolved for me from doing those interviews to doing more solos, and that works for me. And again, that's some people's cup of tea. That's not other people's. I mean, something I heard recently, and I'm curious your thoughts on this. I was listening to Bill Simmons, who's a podcaster who I love, and he's been around for a long time. Some people refer to him on the sports side of things as the podfather because he started one at ESPN years ago when everybody was like, what the hell is this? We have a tv network and multiple channels and we have a radio network. What is a podcast? And why would we even do that? He's like, no, no, you don't understand. Young people are going to listen this way. Right? But he said something that basically most podcast consumers, and I'm now a pretty significant, savvy podcast consumer myself, have about five shows, roughly five or six shows in their rotation, right?

Yeah.

And that's it. And he goes, the challenge is if you start a new podcast, is how are you going to break into the rotation? Of. Right. So maybe getting new people to listen to podcasts who aren't necessarily podcast listeners, that's harder because it's gotten so big. It's not this weird thing anymore. Most people know what they are and listen. And when he said that, I thought, that's so interesting, because then I was, I've been paying attention to my own habits. Of the five or six shows that I listen to regularly, when I will listen to another show is if I see something, oh, that person who I really like is on someone's show, then all of a sudden I'll listen to that episode. Now I subscribe to their show, and if I'm paying attention to their feed, if they have someone or something else really interesting, I might pop in and listen from time to time. But I say that again, not in any way to discourage people from starting a new show or getting into podcasting, but just realizing that, like, that is kind of the way that people listen to podcasts. And the cool thing is that it doesn't take a lot of money or time or necessarily training to start. Now. Being really good is a whole other thing. And at the same time, it's also kind of like writing a book in a way. And I don't discourage anyone from writing a book, but there's literally over a million new titles that come out worldwide every year of books.

Yeah.

So the chance of someone actually picking up your book and reading your book and liking your book is very small, even though you put your heart and soul into it. And it's like a couple of years in the process of, I'm sure there's.

A lot of garages, but a lot of cases of books that have been ordered.

And that's why I feel like at the end of the day, whether you're writing a book or starting a podcast, or you have a podcast you've had for a long time, like, you first and foremost have to really be interested in it yourself, right. And, like, I sometimes will sit here in my office and record my podcast, and I have that thought. Like, I'm sure many podcasters who's like, anybody even give a shit about this or care or does this even matter, right? Or am I just screaming into the wind? But, like, I mean, yeah, I can look at the numbers and see, of course that's not the case. But when I hear from someone, like, I got an email last week from a guy, and he was like, hey, man, I saw you speak at this event in San Diego last year, and I've been following you since then I listen to your podcast all the time. I really appreciate just how real you are. Like, man, it touched me at such a deep level, right? It's like. And I forwarded it to my team, and I was like, look, this guy, we're not making any money from this guy. We're not selling him anything, whatever. But I was like, this is why I record my podcast.

Yeah.

Because there's some dude who tells me in an email, it's helped me be a better father. It's helped me be a better leader. Thank you for what you're doing. And then I'm like, man, I don't need a ton of those. But every now and again, a touch point like that to me is just like, like, you know, it's like running a long race and someone on the side going, keep going. You're inspiring me, and you're like a cup of lemonade.

But it's also. Yeah, I've also spoken a couple times on stage, and I always say I just want to affect one person, whether it's 100 people or a thousand people in a room. And inevitably, it's so far, thankful. Knock on wood. It's happened. But someone comes up at the end, it's like, hey, you know, I really needed to hear that message right now today. You know, it's just the right place, right time. So thank you for that. And I was like, good. I'm good. That's all I need. Because, you know, I think people, too many times, especially with podcasting, I always say in a podcast conversation, there's three people, the host, guest, and the listener. Listener, listener, singular. Because there's one person listening on their earbuds. And so you're bringing them on their journey, on the journey with you. And if we, you know, you and I, in this conversation, we've done a really good job of keeping that in mind and making sure, you know, we have someone that's listening at this time. And thank you for whoever that is watching and listening at this time, because we, without an audience, we are just like, speaking in the wind. Right. So I'm curious if you think about the impulse, because you. It seems like you're a self starter for a lot of the things you've done and just been able to kind of pick yourself up and dust yourself off when things aren't going your way or the way you have planned. Where does the impulse come for that first book? I'm curious about that. Yeah.

So my first book is called focus on the good stuff. It came out back in 2007. I mean, when I first started my business in zero one, I wanted to speak was the main thing I wanted to do. But I got some training at the coach's training institute, so I was like, I'll get some one on one coaching clients. Because that felt doable. The speaking things seemed a little harder to figure out how to get done. And then the writing thing, like, writing a book, was just this, like climbing Mount Everest. But that was a goal, right? Like, if I'm going to get on the radio, which I want to do, or get on television, you know, promote myself and help reach people, you have to write a book, right? So I started the process in zero one. I met a guy at an event who was a writer editor. I was reading a book about how to get a nonfiction book published, and you needed to write a book proposal. And I was like, I don't. I hated writing in school. I was always, like, pulling all nighters in college to finish my papers. So I meet this guy. He coaches me. We work back and forth. I basically give him life coaching. He gives me book coaching and writing coaching and editing. So I get this proposal put together, but then it takes me a few years. I meet some other authors and people. Oh, you have to have an agent. How do you get an agent? Well, you write a proposal. So it takes me a couple years. I get an agent. It's like, okay, I got an agent. This is, like, 2003. Okay, I got it. I got a good agent. This guy's, like, published some good book. We send it to all. He sends it to all the publishers. I get rejected, like, 17 times by every publisher, okay? And then we go through that for, like, a year and a half, and he's finally like, you know, Mike, I don't think I can get this book published. So the agent basically drops me. Then I end up getting another agent. Yeah, okay, this one. And she's like, a fancy New York agent, even, like, more fancy than the first guy that I had. And she decides to send it out one at a time. And we get rejected and rejected and rejected, and we finally think we got up to, like, I've been rejected now 25 times, and I'm just like, oh, my God. This is terrible. What am I doing? It was 2006, early 2006. Our daughter, our older daughter, Samantha, who's now 18, about to graduate from high school in a couple weeks. She had just been born. So I'm a new father.

Wow.

And I'm like, okay, my wife is now going to not work and just stay home and take care of the baby. So I'm feeling like, I told babe I got it, which I didn't really have it, but I just wanted her to know I'll take care of it. And the business was going okay at the time. I'm speaking, I'm coaching, but I call my agent, Linda, and I was like, listen, I'm not waiting any longer for you or any publisher to give me permission to write this book. I'm writing the damn book. I'll publish it myself. I have enough friends who've self published. I'm just. I'm ready. It's time. She's like, hold on a second, Mike. It was a. I think it was. She had told me on a Friday that, like, she didn't know if she could pitch it anymore or whatever. And then I called her that Monday and said, I'm doing it myself. She's like, I have a couple other publishers kind of on my b list that I haven't sent. I'll send it out to all three of these and see if, you know, she calls me back, like, Thursday. We have this conversation Monday, and she's like, you're not going to believe it. All three of them are interested.

Oh, wow.

So I end up having a meeting with Jezebes, which is an imprint of Wiley in San Francisco, and they agree to publish the book. And I share that long story, because for me, I realized, looking back on it, Harry, like, I wasn't ready to write the book until I was actually ready. And I do believe in that whole thing. Like, once you really get clear and once you really commit, the universe has a way of kind of organizing itself around that, and I've seen that happen many times in my life and in my business. And so that book. But then they said yes. And then I was like, oh, no, now I have to actually write a book, right? I was like, I've never done that before. So it was hard. It was really hard to write the book and promote the book and do the whole thing. And, you know, five books in, it's gotten a little easier. Yeah, it's still not super easy for me or fun, which is why I probably have ten other books in my head that I could write. But it's a process. But again, everybody listening, watching, whether you want to write a book or not, whether you have a podcast or not, I often will like to say to myself, look, I didn't invent this problem. Someone else has figured this out. So let me go talk to other people who figured it out already. So I don't have to reinvent the wheel. And that's the thing. Like, whenever I bump into issues with my business or marketing or this or that or whatever the heck it is or parenting, we have two teenagers and it's like every day I'm like, oh, my God, I'm completely unprepared for this job. And it's like the most important job I have. But I'm like, there's other people on the planet really close to me who've done this and done this well. Maybe I can ask them when you.

Think about the topics for a book, because think about a book has bounced around my head for many years, and I'm 53, so I've had an interesting life full of ups and downs, which I'm sure would make for good reading. And how do you decide what to put in that first one? Because it's not like you're opus, right? It's not your life story, but it sounds like you've picked specific topics that you want to share your wisdom on in that specific book.

Yeah, I mean, I wrote, my first book was on appreciation and gratitude. My second book was on authenticity. I wrote two books kind of back to back pretty quickly, and it came out in zero seven in the fall and then zero nine in the spring. And then the recession hit, and my business, like everybody else's, took a huge hit. We had two babies, and I wrote two books in the span of about three and a half years. And I was like, oh, gosh, and we were broke. Right. I was like, okay, this isn't working. So I waited another five years till I wrote my third book. And I'm saying this because in terms of what to write about, I mean, again, like I was saying earlier, I'm a big believer. Yeah, you want there to be a market for the book. Like, it has to be something that you think is going to be interesting and relevant to other people. Otherwise, it's a journal. Right? At the same time, though, it's going to take probably from the time you think about it till the time the book actually comes out. It could be. I mean, if you're brilliant and you have an idea and go right to it and self publish it, maybe you could get it out in a few months. But usually from the time you start thinking about it to when you actually write the thing to when it comes out, it's going to be like a few years. And then once it comes out, it's going to be another at least year, if not a couple years of your life. Talking about the thing. So you really got to be kind of into it, not just like this is a good idea. I think people will buy this because if you don't care about it, it's hard for other people to care about it. But I often think about, again, there are a lot of people that do write memoirs or their own stories that aren't celebrities now, that's a harder sell. But if you write a compelling story about your life or things you've learned in your life, there's a lot of people that would be interested in that if you have a compelling way of sharing it, and if you have a platform like a podcast or somewhere else that you are talking to people. Because the truth of the matter is, especially in today's world, people only really buy books based on knowing who the person is who wrote the book. I mean, unless it's the one in a million that's just a massive runaway bestseller and someone says, you have to buy this book. But the truth is, I just bought a book yesterday. I buy books all the time because I was emailing with a friend mentor of mine who was like, you should buy this book. And I'm like, okay, so I bought it. That's how people ultimately buy books. You don't wander into the bookstore anymore, usually. And what should I get? I need something. Maybe if you're in the airport on the way on vacation, and you didn't bring a book with you and you want a book to read on the beach, but even then you're probably going to go, what did Oprah say? Or what should I, you know what I mean? So I say all that because I think figuring out what we want to write our books about, if we have a book in us or want to write a book, is more about what do I feel like I have to say and what do I think would make a difference for other people? You know, answering those two questions, I think are really important. And there's three phases with the book. The first phase is, what the heck am I going to write about, right? The second phase is actually writing the damn thing and figuring out, in some point, is anyone going to publish it. But then the third phase is, like, promoting it. And all three of those phases are very different and take very different skills from my experience.

Well, that's very helpful. Thank you for sharing those insights. I want to be cognizant of your time. So we got a couple of questions as we wrap up that I typically ask all guests. What is the most misunderstood thing about you?

Oh, that's a good question. I think because of what I do and because I'm so extroverted and I talk a lot and I seem like I have a lot of confidence. I think people don't realize just how insecure I feel a lot of times and how much fear and nervousness is right under the surface. I've often said about myself, I operate with a pretty high level of anxiety and just a little higher level of grit and determination.

Yeah, sounds familiar.

Yeah.

What is something you've changed your mind about recently?

Something I've changed my mind about recently, I think. You know, I don't know if it's recent, but I've had a lot of different thoughts about education and higher education as we've gone through the process. Our older daughter's about to graduate high school and go off to college, and I just. I'm kind of torn. On the one hand, I see the value of it, but going through the process with her and just seeing how brutal and competitive and weird it all is today, I'm like, I think we have something screwed up here. I don't know what the answer is, but, like, something's not quite working about it. And I've always been such an advocate for education and, like, it's important and, like, go to the best school possible and get the best education, but, like, I don't really know what the hell that means. So I'm sort of in the middle of that inquiry. So I don't know that I've changed my mind. But I'm definitely asking a bunch of different questions about higher education than I ever had before in a very personal way because I'm now paying attention to it as a parent, you know?

Yeah. I mean, when you think about everything you've seen, like, students coming out saddled with debt, you know, and then just also not being prepared with actual skills that actually matter in today's environment. Like, it's really challenging.

What are we doing? It's more expensive than ever. It's harder to get in than ever. Kids are, you know, in a lot of cases, dealing with hardcore mental health stuff, and we're not giving them a lot of skills. And then I don't know. So, anyway, I don't mean this to be a whole rant about it, but I'm definitely thinking about that from a different perspective and, like, curious about what's best not only for my children, our children, but in general. So I don't know.

Yeah, I think we're going through an interesting time. It's very tumultuous. But all the traditional institutions, whether it's higher education, whether it's medicine, whether it's politics, they're all like, getting. We're in a state of upheaval right now that I think we've ever seen in our lifetimes before. And I think we're having this conversation in five to ten years. I think a lot of those are going to look a lot very different than they do now, I think. So I thought it'd be helpful for you to share with our listeners and viewers just who's an ideal client for you? I'm just curious who you work with and what kind of businesses do you support?

Yeah, I mean, our clients are like Google and Wells Fargo and Microsoft and eBay and Walmart, big companies. So a lot of the people that contact me, contact us, are pretty high level leaders inside these companies. And they're like, hey, can you come speak at our leadership meeting or our sales meeting, or we're having an off site with our team. So, like, from that side. But in terms of just like, my books and my podcast, it's really, it's not just, you know, leaders and people in businesses, it's just people who are interested in growth and development. So anybody, if you will, that wants to be more real, more open, you know, more authentic, more appreciative of themselves and their life and the people around them, that's kind of who I'm speaking to, you know?

Well, that's a fantastic way to put a bow in this conversation, because you've been just that. And you've been also, you know, for true transparency, I was doing cold outreach on LinkedIn, and you were kind enough to return my message. And it's something that I'm trying differently, but it's also, you never know what kind of people you'll meet. And I've had as a result of that exercise, there's some really fascinating conversations with folks. I appreciate you taking a chance on having a conversation with a stranger, and I think it speaks to some this being more open in a way that's not, you know, being all things for everyone. But I think if we have a little bit more of this in the world of just being open to, like, different viewpoints, different conversations, you know, sometimes we're pleasantly surprised at what turns out. So I'm really glad you made. You were able to find some time to come on here and share your incredibly inspiring story. It's really a true test of, like, what happens when you think life is going to go one way and it then goes another. And how do you, what do you draw on in terms of, like, your inner strength or your upbringing and that resilience to get you through these next chapters in life? Because I think I've come to realize and just. Just going through this the hard way in terms of school, of life, just when you think you've hit a low and then you hit a high and you're like, oh, no more lows until there's a couple more coming. And I think getting through these chapters in life and finding the strength and the tools along the way I think is really helpful. So thank you for sharing your inspiring story.

You're welcome. Thanks for having me, man. I'm glad we were able to make this work.

So what's the best place for folks to connect with you?

Best place is actually on our website, which is Mike Dash, robins.com.

Okay, well, thanks for all. I know you sent all the links, and we'll have those all in the show notes as well. So I appreciate your time. Micah. I think it's a very inspiring story.

Thanks, Harry.